The feminists who cried rape
I wrote yesterday that Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell basically pulled a Bart Stupak.
McDonnell blew an opportunity that comes along only rarely in public life, to be an honest-to-goodness hero. Like Stupak, McDonnell more than squandered it. He ended up hurting the pro-life cause by weakening sound, proven ultrasound legislation.
But what about feminists?
They are presently congratulating themselves for cleverly equating transvaginal ultrasounds to “forcible rape,” but their victory will be short-lived.
They, too, blew it, digging themselves into a hole pro-lifers should not let them climb out of.
Abortion proponent Carole Joffe, professor at UCSF’s Bixby Center for Global Reproductive Health, recognized the problem in a February 29 piece she wrote at Slate entitled,”Crying rape: Pro-choice advcoates should quit calling ultrasounds rape”:
“Are we now going to have to convince our patients we are not raping them?” A longtime abortion provider posed that question to colleagues on a listserv this week, and it demonstrates what is wrongheaded about the rhetoric that abortion rights supporters have been using to oppose ultrasound laws. In the short run, the labeling has sent pro-life legislators running. But in the long run, it risks turning a benign and routine part of the abortion procedure into cause for alarm.
Pro-choice commentators have called the transvaginal form of ultrasound that’s standard early in pregnancy “rape,” “forced vaginal penetration,” and an “unnecessary medical procedure”…. In the short run, this framing galvanized a pro-choice backlash against the Virginia ultrasound bill….
But I have considerable concerns about what calling these ultrasounds “rape” and “unnecessary” will mean for abortion patients and providers. The reality is that most abortion patients do receive an ultrasound to date their pregnancies. Since most abortions take place in the first trimester of pregnancy, many of these ultrasounds are performed with a transvaginal probe, the most effective method for viewing early-stage pregnancies….. Most of the time, however, the transvaginal ultrasound is a useful and common tool that helps providers perform abortions safely and well.
But now that women have heard abortion supporters describe this form of ultrasound as “rape,” will more of them be terrified when they arrive at a clinic and are informed they will have such a procedure? Or might they be scared off altogether? Will abortion clinic staff who perform the ultrasound be seen as “rapists,” as the provider I mentioned earlier worried? This is a possibility not lost on the anti-abortion website LifeNews, which recently ran the headline, “If Ultrasound is Rape, Arrest Planned Parenthood Staffers.”
Indeed, abortion proponents like RH Reality Check went to great lengths to make ultrasound probes appear menacing, like this illustration it included in the post, “State-sanctioned rape: Trans-vaginal ultrasound laws in Virginia, Texas, and Iowa”…
But Planned Parenthood operates its business no differently than the original Virginia ultrasound bill. Planned Parenthood forces mothers to undergo two ultrasounds before abortions, one of which may be transvaginal. Which will Planned Parenthood choose if a mother refuses a transvaginal ultrasound – the mother’s wishes or sound medical care? That’s one question to ask.
Here’s another: If a woman has a psychological aversion to transvaginal ultrasound, should not abortion clinic “counselors” flag her as ill-equipped to handle an abortion?
I say that because, unlike transvaginal ultrasounds, abortions are in no way benign. Following is an illustration of the most common method of abortion, suction and curettage. Aside from numerous surgical instruments inserted into the vagina and uterus. Click to enlarge…
Remember there is also the accompanying sound and sensation of a suction machine. Both are well illustrated in this video, which I can attest is accurate, having assisted in a number of D&Cs…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICy6i_bzEGw[/youtube]
Is there any question which procedure is more intrusive? Here’s how Planned Parenthood describes both. Note the transvaginal ultrasound “is not painful” but the abortion requires numbing medication, pain medication, and even sedation…
There is certainly no “recovery period” following an ultrasound.
The “rape” argument can be thrust back at abortion proponents in so many ways. The basic question is: Which is really more comparable to rape: ultrasound or abortion?
[Graphic via Write Chic Press]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
My friend was forced to have a trans-vaginal ultrasound in Colombia and came away shaking. She felt like she had been raped/violated by it because it is shaped like a very large dildo/fake penis. She is now, in the Hispanic community admonishing the pro-lifers not to ever be involved in this kind of thing. I was was with her as she had an emotional breakdown because of it. This is not something pro-lifers should be involved with. Who invented such an instrument. Pretty sick if you ask me. I have no problem with abdominal ultrasounds, but vehemently opposed to the trans-vaginal ones. BTW, it was not for pregnancy that they forced her into it. She was not even told before hand, but the nurse sprung it on her in an exam room. Not very ethical
Sorry but my post will be a bit off topic. I want to address the rhetoric of pro-choicers that equates a vaginal ultrasound to rape. To me this is actually one of the more benign forms of their rhetoric because the rhetoric is only targeting government laws. However, most of the time, Pro-Choice rhetoric directly targets the unborn and thereby dehumanizes them. This is why I think Pro-Choice rhetoric should be classified as hate speech.
With the above in mind, I propose that legislators should declare that “Pro-Choice” rhetoric/speech is hate speech and that it should not be allowed in the public arena. Pro-Choice speech is ageist, ableist, sexiest (see China) and often racist language. It incites hatred toward the unborn and undeveloped human beings.
I wouldn’t mind if a law that prohibits pro-choice speech had to go to the Supreme Court because I think it would be upheld by the Court as a just law. I think this would be one effective way of bringing sanity back to the public square. Banning abortion is not enough – we need to ban “Pro-Choice” speech as well IMO.
Does anyone else agree that pro-choice speech is hate speech? Is this a reasonable assertion? Perhaps this could be the next Weekly poll?
The first image is perfect.
If there’s a website with a more ironic name than RH Reality Check, I have yet to see it. I do wonder what they would have to say about a pelvic exam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pelvic_exam_nci-vol-1786-300.jpg
The rape analogy automatically fails. By definition, rape involves force, threat of violence, or (at very least) lack of consent. Aside from the case of forced abortion (which is illegal either way, rendering it a moot point), anyone is free to refuse the ultrasound (and the abortion).
A better analogy would be comparing abortion without informed consent to rape.
jc – I’m sorry but your friend is unstable, immature, or had an abnormal experience in Columbia. She is speaking against a sound and important medical tool. Does she also speak against pap smears? This is not a “sick” instrument. It takes ultrasound as close to a baby as nonvasively possible. it is sometimes necessary for overweight mothers, too.
I’m sorry about your friend, but it sounds like there may have been extenuating issues here. I’ve had a trans-vaginal exam (they were looking for uterine polyps), and I found it rather routine. It was much, much less uncomfortable and intrusive than a pap smear, actually (and we need to get those every year). Regardless, the point of this post is to show that ignoring the truly invasive and destructive procedure of abortions while sensationalizing the rather mundane trans-vaginal exam is both misleading and hypocritical.
Jill,
I, too, have experienced this kind of procedure. The technician did tell me what she was going to do, and perhaps, that is the real issue…advising the patient about what will take place… The one and only time was to determine if the baby I was carrying had a heartbeat…It was a week after discovering I was pregnant, and there was a heartbeat…but that day, there was no heartbeat.
Quite frankly, this appears to be much ado about nothing. Maybe the speculum will be next…last I checked, the PAP smear, accomplished with one of those lovely tools, is the only way to take samples to locate cervical cancer…is that so?
jcgirl1979 did you watch video posted above demonstrating the suction power of an aspirator?
I experienced the procedure when I had ovarian cysts. I found it unusual the first time, but what I dreaded facing an upcoming appointment was the water I had to drink and the waiting…the waiting…the water.. the..waiting…is it over yet!? and then, expel half and come back are you kidding me?! OMG, it wasn’t funny at the time, but I have to laugh now.
Sometimes a diagnostic tool is only a diagnostic tool.
If a sonogram is rape what do they call abortion?
If the pro-choicers don’t like the idea of their speech/rhetoric/discourse being aborted from the public square they need to explain why they think it is fair for them to turnaround and abort another human being, aborting them not only from the public square, but from life as well? As soon as the Pro-Choicers can justify aborting the unborn from the public square they will have earned their right to spew their hate speech. However, that day will never happen.
Furthermore, in the US there are over 50 million “pieces of evidence” that supports the argument that pro-choice rhetoric results in violence.
They want to abort religion from the public square for speaking about love so lets try to make sure their screams and demands for violence against the unborn are not heard by the next generation.
I know this argument sounds unAmerican but perhaps someone can make this argument better than I can.
The alternative to accepting that trans-vaginal ultrasounds are legitimate and vital medical procedures, is to basically stigmatize female reproductive medical care. If a doctor insisting on a TV ultrasound before abortion is rape, then a doctor insisting on doing a pap smear before doing surgery for cervical cancer is rape. Eventually, by extension, you get to the idea that women’s medical care is actually sexual activity. Honestly, this whole thing reminds me of those archaic countries you hear of where women can’t see male doctors or something. Eff that! Medical care is medical care and anyone who struggles emotionally with that fact should receive help. Anyone who tells women that they are being raped or degraded by receiving reproductive medical care should be ashamed.
When I was a little girl I had a strange and sudden skin condition that basically changed the color of the skin on my genitals. Apparently it’s a very common temporary thing, but usually happens on people’s back or armpit. Go figure. Anyway it was terrifying and I ran crying to my mother, who booked an appointment with the doctor. I asked her if I would have to let the doctor see that part of me and she said, yes, I would, but it was ok because he was my doctor. I asked if we could just describe the problem and she said, no, he is the doctor and he has to see for himself. She hugged me and told me how he had my best interests at heart. How he had weighed me as a baby and helped me grow healthily. She told me about her own doctor and how he saw her naked sometimes, when he had to. How she never would have been able to have babies if she didn’t trust her doctor with her body. We talked and she held my hand once I was at the doctor and that was that. It was scary enough that I remember it more than twenty years later, but it was a vital lesson to learn. It was so important that someone taught me that letting a medical professional take care of my body is NEVER shameful or embarrassing. If she had just said, “You know what? He SHOULDN’T need to see the affected skin, and if he says he needs to then we’ll just go home,” that would have been failing in her duties as a parent. As a mother, her job was to explain to me that this was NOT wrong, that it was NOT abuse. That it was important for me to be healthy even if it wasn’t always comfortable. These people, by contrast, are all egging on the natural but misplaced feelings of discomfort by saying that it IS potentially abuse, that it’s NOT important to be healthy.
I have had an ongoing sinus problem for over a year now. Twice I’ve had to get that stupid camera thing shoved inside my nostril and down towards my throat. Is it pleasant? No. Did it actually make me tear up the first time? Yes, it did. Should I have been able to decline diagnostic procedures but force the doctor to treat me anyway? No! I was well within my rights to walk out of his office, and any woman who doesn’t want an ultrasound is well within her rights not to have one. But she cannot demand that a doctor perform surgery on her without allowing him to do basic diagnostic testing.
I’ve had 5 transvaginal ultrasounds. Not one was painful or traumatic.
I agree with the Slate author. Ultrasounds are standard care prior to an abortion. Doing abortions without them would make the procedure even more unsafe than it already is; how does that jive with “safe, legal, and rare”?
A transvaginal ultrasound is far less uncomfortable than a Pap smear. The shameful part of what these stupid “feminists” have done is that they utterly trivialize the violence and horror of rape and mock every woman who has suffered such a trauma. Their hysterics are insulting and belittling to every rape victim. An ultrasound is not violence. It’s not “forced penetration.” It’s not to subdue or attack the woman. It’s not done out of malice or perversion. An ultrasound is hardly a difficult emotional experience, and any woman who thinks it is has serious emotional problems that have nothing to do with the ultrasound probe.
Abortion, on the other hand, is indeed violence.
I know this is unrelated, but in regards to pro-lifers being jailed, I just wanted to send a shout out for help!
HI there, I post with an urgent plea.
The SURVIVORS need immediate help and assistance.
Two of their female members were jailed last night and the bail was posted at 2,000$ EACH.
This is a group that goes in front of abortion clinics and shows the women what their abortions will actually look like–they disprove the lies to us young girls, showing that our tiny embryo is not a blob of cells, but a living human with a body that will come out looking like what it is: a murdered baby.
Please HELP them out–I can only imagine what it is like for these two young christian girls in the Jackson, MI jail.
Please use this opportunity time to help Christ.
http://survivors.la/donate-to-survivors.asp
Our movement is heating up and so is the opposition.
Imagine if these were your girls in jail.
You would be scared for them, but proud, right?
In Christ,
Bobbi @ CityOfAngelsNativeMission.com
I’m not a member of the group, but a big fan of what they do and their results *(fruits) speak for themselves.
RH Reality Check, you’ll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villany. We must be cautious…
Heh Heh, I’ve been waiting to use that Star Wars line ;-)
A transvaginal ultrasound is critical, particularly if a woman has had prior abortions. Generally, scarring near the fallopian tubes can create the possibilty of an ectopic pregnancy. An ectopic leaves a very limited amount of time to discover that situation and rectify it. And an ectopic will require a salpingostomy or salpinectomy depending upon the gestational age. That’s necessary, invasive surgery.
Calling the use of this diagnostic “rape” is crazy.
What also is amazing to me is that a transvaginal or abdominal ultrasound is good AND routine practice before an abortion. These “doctors,” “experts,” and “activists” SHOULD want to see that women truly are given the best, safest and most thorough care as possible. Therefore, women ought to allowed to make an informed decision knowing all of the facts AND to be the recipient of standard, healthy and good care. And they should be allowed to make their choice based on open and unscrupulous presentation of the facts as they are.
But “they” are willing to throw that out the window because they also know that with the necessity to make the findings of an ultrasound available to their patients that more women will choose life and walk away when they see/hear the heartbeat and SEE their child. The abortion industry would rather line their pockets then provide safe and honest care to women or for that matter even ADMIT that this is already standard practice that has the potential for dangerous consequences when not performed.
It’s disgusting and a shame that these women’s rights activists who will shout at the top of their lungs at an instant that “women are being oppressed” really are chattel to the abortion industry who doesn’t have their best interest in mind. All of this only to promote their distorted view. Shameful.
Is it rape when ultrasound is used in ultrasound guided abortion? Not a peep or complaint from them when an abortionist uses ultrasound as a killing tool. Feminism=perpetual victimhood-the antithesis of empowerment. Rape victims are just political tools to be whipped out for cheap emotional appeal, and to buy votes. Sickening.
“She is speaking against a sound and important medical tool.”
Whether or not a TVU is a sound and important medical tool in any specific case should be determined by a physician, and not a politician or church spokesperson.
SPAM/FRAUD ALERT!!!
Survivors is based in California. The web site link above is a site in LAOS in Asia! I do not know for sure, but it seems highly likely it is FRAUDULENT!
If this is the legitimate web site for a legitimate group, I sincerely apologize. But the domain extension “.la” is quite uncommon and caused immediate concern.
Precisely the point of the Slate article, law. Sadly, pro-abortion activists are the ones trying to claim that TVU is an instrument of rape and not a valid medical diagnostic tool.
more info on above fraudulent (?) post – I found a story of members of the Survivors group being jailed – but it was in Jackson, Mississippi not Michigan – and as of 2:30 pm today, they had been released!
“trying to claim that TVU is an instrument of rape and not a valid medical diagnostic tool”
It is when it is mandated by the government for the express purpose of trying to manipulate women’s behavior. Only McDonnel would never admit that, but we know anyway. That there needs to be government intervention into what procedure any woman in any given instance needs is absurd.
Wasn’t there a huge chorus of whining lately about the Catholic church’s first amendment rights? You do realize that the first amendment also applies to pregnant women and that they cannot be forced to view photos, pamphlets, writing, opinions, screeds, propaganda, or any other literature, right? At this point women will now be forced to endure a procedure that may or may not in any given case be necessary, they will be forced to pay for the privilege, and they’ll go through their procedures anyway because this has never been proven to change anyone’s behavior, and all it will do is place an additional burden on families and Medicaid.
/golf clap
So, law, you do not believe that the government should not be able to mandate health and safety standards for abortion clinics? I take it you approved of Kermit Gosnell’s conditions in his clinics, given that he also didn’t think that regulations were necessary or appropriate for the government to mandate?
How exactly does informed consent manipulate women’s behavior? If the image shows a ball of cells, as PP et al claim, then I can’t see how it’d change a woman’s mind one way or the other. Seems that if PP et al are being honest about u/s images and what they show, then this law will be a boon to the abortion industry.
I didn’t click on it, Bryan, because I kind of suspected as much.
“So, law, you do not believe that the government should not be able to mandate health and safety standards for abortion clinics”
This has nothing to do with health and safety standards. Mandating procedures has nothing to do with health or safety – if it did, the Virginia Board of Medicine and the Virginia Department of Health would have been involved, or there would have been a specific case of malpractice in the court. But that’s not what happened here. What is happening is that the state of Virginia has decided what medical procedures all women need.
“How exactly does informed consent manipulate women’s behavior?”
This also has nothing to do with “informed consent” because not only are women seeking abortions not so stupid that they don’t know they’re pregnant, but they also cannot be forced to look at the ultrasounds.
One of their biggest complaints about TVUS is the added cost. Maybe Sandra Fluke can get a private congressional hearing and ask for a handout for this, too. Feminism=daycare for grown women who can’t do anything without their nanny (state).
Please provide evidence that the VA Board of Medicine and the VA DOH oppose the use of TVU as a routine diagnostic tool.
Re: informed consent – of course women know they’re pregnant. They may not realize that their child is a genetically unique, developing, growing human being with a heartbeat. Did you read the testimony given to the committee in TX who were considering a similar law (now passed)? Several women testified that they had NOT known accurate information about the gestational age of their baby, and that PP of TX had REFUSED to let them see the u/s image when they asked. They also testified that once they found out the truth about their babies’ development, they regretted their abortions.
If the women aren’t forced to look at the ultrasounds, then what’s the problem? Obviously TVU is the safest procedure to use prior to an ultrasound, and it’s SOP the way it is.
Of course a bill supposedly designed to “protect women” and further the principle of “informed consent” involves mandated vaginal penetration. It should make no difference that a) physicians are best suited to making these kinds of decisions in the first place, and b) transvaginal ultrasound is already a common practice for women in the first trimester. The practical utility of the bill is of no importance. Cloaked in the language of faux-concern, this criminally pointless piece of legislation is merely an opportunity for conservative retrogrades to symbolically communicate their disdain for “illicit” sex.
I wonder if there would be equal pro-life support for a less titillating “patients’ rights” bill.
“Please provide evidence that the VA Board of Medicine and the VA DOH oppose the use of TVU as a routine diagnostic tool.”
They don’t. The fact that neither body was at all involved in deciding this legislation doesn’t at all phase you?? It doesn’t bother you at all that this legislation overrides a physician’s professional decision in any given case?
BTW, the bill was only signed after they changed it to remove the TVU requirement – which indicates that hm, maybe the Republicans didn’t really believe that requiring a TVU was critical medicine and a critical oversight on gynecologic health and safety.
The personhood bill was also tabled. Maybe having women’s healthcare in the hands of politicians who think “aspirin between the knees” is an example of responsible healthcare policy is not such a good idea after all.
“If the women aren’t forced to look at the ultrasounds, then what’s the problem?”
That the ultrasound may neither be necessary nor wanted. In any given case that should be decided by the presiding physician, not politicians. Requiring medical procedures as a condition for receiving other procedures as if it’s some kind of cover charge is, for lack of a better term, unconscionable. Since this bill, as written, is completely useless and Republicans have only suffered for their idiocy, all I can say is, hooray!
“The practical utility of the bill is of no importance. Cloaked in the language of faux-concern, this criminally pointless piece of legislation is merely an opportunity for conservative retrogrades to symbolically communicate their disdain for “illicit” sex.”
Megan, you are far too negative! Perhaps Virginia legislators thought that all of the missing jobs in their state were in women’s uteruses and they were just earnestly working on the economy! Maybe they were trying to create more medical positions for ultrasound techs?
Maybe Sandra Fluke can get a private congressional hearing and ask for a handout for this, too.
Hey, MPQ–did you ever back up your claim that Sandra Fluke lied about her age under oath?
I myself find this “informed consent” thing a bit ironic coming from a faction of people who largely don’t believe in sex education and push the wildly ineffective and criminally ignorant “abstinence only” education. I really don’t think having one’s feet in the stirrups at the gynecologist is the best time to endure a course on fetal development that could have been taught long ago in high school.
“Several women testified that they had NOT known accurate information about the gestational age of their baby”
60% of women seeking abortions are already mothers. Apparently the other 40% were educated in the Bible belt.
law – so, you object to the government mandating what is already a standard medical procedure not objected to by the government departments charged with regulating said procedures?
100% of women seeking abortion are mothers. Abortion simply makes a woman the mother of a dead baby. Many women, sadly, are not as informed about fetal development as you or I, because they get their outdated and inaccurate information from PP – hence the need for this law.
If an ultrasound is not wanted, fine! A woman has every right to refuse one, and this law did not change that. However, given that it’s not medically safe to not do an abortion without a diagnostic ultrasound to confirm gestational age and absence of any complicating factors (ectopic pregnancy, multiples, etc.) a woman who refuses a diagnostic ultrasound should not get an abortion.
You make a lot of assumptions about conservatives and what they support. I don’t support sex education or abstinence education — I support chastity education (preferably done by the parents in the home, not in a public school setting), which incorporates both and has proven to be more successful than either.
I wouldn’t want to be the pro-choicer who walks into a facility with an ectopic pregnancy and gets a common D&C abortion. Kinda deletes the “safe” from safe, legal, and rare. Some pro-choicers are OUR FRIENDS and even if we loathe abortion, we don’t want to see our friends and relatives hurt by shoddy, improper abortions. Until it’s illegal again, I’d like to see it safer.
This whole argument proves that it was a total lie that feminists wanted legal abortion because they were afraid of back alley abortions. They want the back alley to be the medical standard of care, today in 2012. Way to care about women… better change your euphemism from ‘reproductive health care’ to ‘reproductive health sabotage.’
“so, you object to the government mandating what is already a standard medical procedure”
It is not standard procedure, it is done in a case by case basis and the doctors get to decide in any given instance. That you think a politician knows better than a doctor makes me wonder if you’re one of those anti-vaccine protestors who generally distrusts the medical profession in general.
not objected to by the government departments charged with regulating said procedures?
Not objected to = they were probably not invited to give their testimony at the hearings. Republicans are known for excluding dissenting opinion in congressional settings because it generally makes them look like twits, and then their talk show hosts get out of hand with misogynistic extremist drivel that they have to pretend to be apologetic about, it’s just a big old mess! Best avoided.
courtney kardashian had one so she and scott could see their baby. she lol a little but she wasnt screaming in pain. that shakes people up? how could this be worse than half the cr*p they shove up there to do an abortion.
LisaC: see my latest comment under the post about Sandra Fluke and the Georgetown student telling her to get some self respect.
“not objected to by the government departments”
Here is a piece by a women’s health nurse practitioner in NJ (I think she’s an advocate of natural childbirth) who says that an ultrasound is not always medically necessary.
http://www.clinicaladvisor.com/ultrasound-before-abortion-not-medically-necessary/article/229974/
Here’s Dr. Amy, an OB from Harvard, also opposing the mandatory ultrasounds
http://skepticalob.blogspot.com/2012/02/religious-zealots-try-to-impose-their.html
Here’s the American Independent on the medical standards from the ACOG about ultrasound requirements before abortion:
http://www.americanindependent.com/211906/virginia-ultrasound-bill-at-odds-with-medical-standards
And here are some more doctors who affirm RH Reality Check’s roundup of the “necessity” of a pre-abortion ultrasound.
http://centerforhealthmediapolicy.com/2012/03/02/repost-from-rh-reality-check-midwife-first-trimester-ultrasounds-are-not-part-of-routine-prenatal-care/
Here’s Dr. Kevin objecting to government involvement:
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2011/02/requiring-counselling-ultrasound-abortion.html
LOL @ ‘not invited to give their testimony’…
http://moronicprochoicequotes.blogspot.com/2012/03/fluke-banning-from-issa-well.html
What the Dems would rather you didn’t know…
On February 16th Sandra Fluke mads big headlines when she was “banned” from testifying at Daryll Issa’s hearing on religious liberty implications of the birth control mandate. The Democrats on the committee missed deadlines to file witness requests, were granted a witness with expertise in the area of religious liberty, then said they didn’t want him but instead wanted Sandra Fluke to testify. Given Ms. Fluke’s lack of expertise in this field she was not allowed to testify and the Democrats in the committee turned the whole thing into a well choreographed circus. (I watched it live so I can attest to it’s choreography.) Sandra Fluke, along with the Democratic women on the committee, walked out of the hearing in protest of the lack of women and a star was born.
From the Washington Examiner:
Clearly, Dems jumped the gun in attempting to launch their newest product (Fluke, that is). Amusing that the fictional ‘friend who lost an ovary’ and other friends whose continued existence are made possible by birth control couldn’t be bothered to speak for themselves. Oops. Also amusing is the fact that birth control pills aren’t a valid treatment for polycystic ovarian disease, as they only mask the symptoms and are also listed by the American Cancer Society as a Class 1 carcinogen. Facts matter, unless you’re a political puppet like Fluke.
ive spoken to many women who have told me they have never experienced as much pain as they did having an abortion. one of my girlfriends woke up from twilight sleep screaming and crying. it was from the emotional pain. no wonder many women have told me ” I made a terrible mistake. I would NEVER have another abortion.”
give the pro aborts some cheese with their whine! bo hoooooo hooooo an ultrsound!
How in the world is a vaginal ultrasound like rape??? Unless the doctor is holding a woman down and jamming that wand into her against her will, there is NO WAY to say this procedure is akin to rape!
I had one done at my first OB visit for this pregnancy, and while it was a bit uncomfortable to have a plastic wand inserted (which I suppose does look a bit like a “large dildo”, as one crass commenter already said) I hardly noticed because I was looking at my tiny baby on-screen! The tech was professional and gentle, explained to me what she was going to do, covered the wand with a new condom and lube, and took time to explain what my husband and I were seeing on the ultrasound screen.
My doctor told me this is a commonly used tool in early pregnancy, in order to confirm a pregnancy, determine the gestational age of the baby, and rule out the chance of ectopic pregnancy. I know several women (friends and family) whose lives were saved by timely detection of an ectopic pregnancy via vaginal ultrasound!
right mrs. jvr ! i dont know of too many women who shout out ” i just love going to the gynocologist.” its just something you have to do. i personally hate pap smears but if its going to detect something abnormal then i understand i gotta suck it up. i hate the speculum but they have to use it. sure this wand looks funny but an ultrasound over the tummy can be cold and uncomfortable. this wasnt invented so obgyns could get their sexual jollies. as a nurse sometimes i have to insert Foley catheters into men and women alike. they dont really like it but its quite quick and maybe a tad uncomfortable. ive never heard a patient tell me they felt sexually violated after the insertion.
i suspect its just one more thing to complain about from pro aborts. they dont want women to see their baby. the heart beating and the little arms legs and head~ it makes it harder to MURDER the BABY!
“Amusing that the fictional ‘friend who lost an ovary’ and other friends whose continued existence are made possible by birth control couldn’t be bothered to speak for themselves.”
Well, neither did Jesus. The entire Bible is hearsay but it didn’t occur to the vast majority of posters here to question that.
The Gospel according to Phluck [her pronunciation], now there is recipe for psalmanella.
missy Phluck [her pronunciation] wants congress to enact legislation that would force insurance companies and other private entities to pay for gender reassignment surgery.
If after the gender reassignment surgery the patient is not satisfied with the new plumbing?
Is the public still on the hook to pay to reverse the procedure?
What if the patient wants to be bonzai tree or a poodle?
How do we determine where to draw the line?
Law, Jesus didn’t write a book; He established a Church.
I can cite links and doctors in favor of the sonogram laws. For example, Dr. Linda Flower, physician, chairman of the Texas Physicians Resource Council, testified in favor of TX Sonogram legislation. Over 30 years of experience including OBGYN and obstetrics. She is a member of the Texas Medical Association (TMA). Etc.
“Law, Jesus didn’t write a book; He established a Church.”
Jesus didn’t establish a church. He supposedly made Paul do that heavy lifting.
I can cite links and doctors in favor of the sonogram laws.
Well, that’s embarrassing. Why would any self-respecting physician be in favor of a law that requires them to perform a procedure? That’s basically an admission that they’ve been negligent all this time without a politician to get up in their offices and correct them. “Without this law, we’d have been practicing shoddy medicine!”
Law, The women’s health practitioner in NJ you cited – all she said was that “First trimester ultrasounds are not part of routine prenatal care” and then went in to talk about the emotional ramifications of abortion.
Abortion is NOT routine prenatal care, it’s a surgical procedure that can be deadly if certain complications arise. Doing a u/s beforehand is simply good medical care regardless of the woman’s feelings about her baby.
So that think doesn’t support your position at all.
Senator Issa’s committee should hold another hearging, subpoena missy Phluck [her pronunciation], put her under oath and then require her to verify all the claims she made before the fake democRAT committee.
Now that we know about Phluck’s [her pronunciation] proclivities it would make for some very interesting Q & A.
It would be great opportunity to expose Phluck’s [her pronunciation] radicalism and associate her with democRATs in general and mr. b o-jangles in specific.
I have a long post on the medical indications for ultrasound, but it’s in moderation. For now:
Doing a u/s beforehand is simply good medical care
That’s not for you to say what is good medical care. It’s not for a politician to say either. Doctors get to decide that, not you.
“Not all physicians will do an ultrasound before an abortion.”
http://aetna-health.healthline.com/smartsource/healthwisecontent/Frame/tw5328
I had to laugh at your link to Dr. Amy, I know her blog well. She’s a rabid anti-homebirth and anti-natural birth zealot, whereas I support natural childbirth and homebirth (although all 4 of mine were born in a hospital). She supports doing intrusive and painful pelvic exams during childbirth as often as possible, not to mention every other possible intervention (fetal scalp monitors, epidurals, etc.) so the fact that she doesn’t support a routine diagnostic tool that can make abortion safer is truly ironic. She’s not very pro-choice when it comes to childbirth! She is on record as believing that homebirth should be criminalized.
So I take her opinions with a huge grain of salt. It’s also interesting to note that although the claims ultrasounds are not needed prior to abortion, she offers no logic, reasoning, or medical evidence to support this claim — and the entire post is nothing more than an anti-Catholic biogted tirade. Not very credible.
Re: the discussion of ACOG standards, again, nothing in that link supports your position. The ACOG standards don’t say that an ultrasound is unnecessary, and mentions that a provider may perform one to confirm the dating of the pregnancy. The standards under discussion are when a transvaginal vs an abdominal ultrasound are appropriate in pregnancy, but the context of that discussion is prenatal care, NOT THE ABORTION SURGICAL PROCEDURE.
Sure, not all abortionists will do an ultrasound prior to an abortion. Kermit Gosnell didn’t, I’m sure. But any abortionist who truly cares about the safety of his patients will. Most clinics do, and have for nearly a decade.
I had a D&C for a missed miscarriage, and I had an ultrasound beforehand. I still have the picture. Would you like to see it? In fact, I’ve had six pregnancies, and have had a transvaginal u/s with five of them. Two of my OB’s did them routinely at the first visit to date the pregnancy.
“I had to laugh at your link to Dr. Amy, I know her blog well.”
So do I, although sometimes not even a Harvard-educated OBGYN will convince anti-vaxxers and stunt-birthers of their lunacy.
“She is on record as believing that homebirth should be criminalized.”
Considering that it’s not just the mother that has to pay the price for dangerous and unhealthy decisions, I can see her point.
“It’s also interesting to note that although the claims ultrasounds are not needed prior to abortion, she offers no logic, reasoning, or medical evidence to support this claim”
What evidence are you looking for? This is asking her to prove a negative. You don’t come up with reasons NOT to perform medical procedures.
“The ACOG standards don’t say that an ultrasound is unnecessary, and mentions that a provider may perform one to confirm the dating of the pregnancy.”
The bill in Virginia is expressly demanding ultrasounds simply to take pictures of the fetus for “informed consent” which is totally against ACOG standards.
“Jesus didn’t establish a church. He supposedly made Paul do that heavy lifting.”
Actually, no, Jesus established the Church and gave the keys (i.e., leadership of the Church) to Peter, the first Pope. It seems as though you are as ignorant of Church history as you are of the standard of prenatal care.
And yes, most self-respecting doctors I know follow the regulations and mandates established by the government in their medical facilities. I wouldn’t go to a doctor who didn’t. Would you prefer to see a doctor who never washed his hands and reused needles because he didn’t want that mean ol’ government telling him what to do?
Considering that it’s not just the mother that has to pay the price for dangerous and unhealthy decisions, I can see her point.
So you oppose homebirth, which is incredibly safe (it’s very rare that either mother or child die), but you support abortion, which kills a child 100% of the time (and occasionally the mother as well). That’s amazing cognitive dissonance you have there.
What is a “stunt birther”? I gave birth on my hands and knees (in the hospital!) last November; would you consider me a “stunt birther”?
Yes, I expect Dr. Amy to provide logic, reason, and medical evidence for her assertion that multiples, ectopic pregnancies, and other complications detectible via ultrasound will not pose any complications during an abortion procedure, since that is her claim (and yours).
60% of women seeking abortions are already mothers.
100% of women seeking abortions are already mothers. Otherwise, why would they seek out abortion, silly? What would they pay to have aborted?
“Actually, no, Jesus established the Church and gave the keys (i.e., leadership of the Church) to Peter, the first Pope”
There is no evidence anywhere in writing that Peter was either a pope or went to Rome. The New Testament does state, however, that Paul did. The Book of Romans ring a bell?
Yes, I know about church history, but in this instance Catholic tradition has no foundation in historical writing whatsoever.
hey JoAnna did you just have a baby? were you the one? if so congrats!!!!!! anyway speaking of abortion….a lot of these pro aborts should go visit the website ” cemetery of choice ” and see how many women were maimed and killed during a quick simple surgical procedure. i personally know of one woman who required a hysterectomy after her 8th abortion due to non stop vaginal bleeding. doctors TOLD her it was BECAUSE of the damage done from the multiple abortions. but nah abortions always go off without a hitch dont they? real pro woman. she tried to drink herself to death after they removed her uterus. it happens all the time. then there are many more women ( try a few web sites ) who suffer emotional trauma following the procedure. i was reading that Tina Turner attempted suicide after her abortion.
“So you oppose homebirth”
Personally I don’t care about birth standards or what pregnant women care to do. I care that their fetuses sometimes die during the birth process because they go into distress and they don’t get help in time. And that’s sad. For people who care so much about babies, you would think you’d want mothers to give birth in a place where they have immediate access to emergency care, rather than sluicing the thing in a kiddie pool full of water on the living room floor.
“And yes, most self-respecting doctors I know follow the regulations and mandates established by the government in their medical facilities.”
And what does that have to do with the justifiability of the Virginia bill?
Would you prefer to see a doctor who never washed his hands and reused needles because he didn’t want that mean ol’ government telling him what to do?
That you equate universal cleanliness in hospitals with forced medical procedures shows just how out of touch you are.
“Once the woman’s choice to proceed with an abortion has been clearly established and written informed consent has been obtained, there is no need for further delay, which may only increase the risk of complications. Counseling should be offered only if the woman requests it or there is a perceived need for it.The blood-group rhesus type should be determined and Rh immune globulin should be administered in Rh-negative women. Cytologic screening of the cervix and screening for sexually transmitted diseases should be offered as appropriate. Ultrasonographic examination of the uterus is common, but it is not required routinely before a first-trimester abortion is performed.”
Kulier R, Kapp N. Comprehensive analysis of the use of pre-procedure ultrasound for first- and second-trimester abortion. Contraception 2011;83:30-33
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMcp1103639?activeTab=comments&page=1&sort=oldest&#t=article
So sick of everything being ‘rape’. Look, I’ve been raped, and I can’t stand pap smears and vag exams; I still have them. But why do rabid proaborts oppose regulating abortion procedures to include TVUs? Because they don’t want to see the image of a little fetus AND it leads to *fewer abortions*. Prolife is winning, evidenced by how the other side can’t even face ultrasounds. Pathetic!
And Law is a hoot! An expert on everything, riiiiight! Because she says so! Deriding religion she is clearly ignorant about. Yikes!
Can I have 8 minutes of my life back? Why did I even glance at her screed? Shaking of the troll dust and moving on…
“And Law is a hoot! An expert on everything, riiiiight! Because she says so!”
You know what I’m so tired of? The religious-based contempt for science and medicine. It’s not because I say so, it’s because the New England Journal of Medicine and the American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists say so.
“Deriding religion she is clearly ignorant about.”
Ha, you want your 8 minutes back you spent reading my science-based posts. I want my 25 years back I spent in church.
Heather – I had my sixth child (fourth here on earth) on November 26. :) Thanks for the congrats!
Your ignorance is showing, Law. There’s ample evidence that Peter was the Pope, and that Peter was in Rome.
Women have access to emergency care during a homebirth. What do you think a midwife is for? And are you under the mistaken impression that women and infants never die in a hospital birth setting? I can assure you, they do. You might want to do some research on this subject, as, once again, you appear ignorant.
“Ultrasonographic examination of the uterus is common, but it is not required routinely before a first-trimester abortion is performed.”
And why is it common if it’s such a horrible idea with absolutely no medical necessity, law?
“There’s ample evidence that Peter was the Pope”
No, argumentation is not evidence. The Catholics take it for granted that “Babylon” is a code word for Rome and the fact that they think they have “the bones of St. Peter” is nearly as hilarious as their worship of the Shroud of Turin and other silly faux artifacts.
“And why is it common if it’s such a horrible idea with absolutely no medical necessity, law?”
No one made that argument. Like Sandra Fluke never talked about sex, no feminist has ever objected to the use of ultrasounds. We object to their legal requirement on the grounds of making women look at the pictures as some sort of method of coercion. Should a doctor deem one necessary, that’s fine. A politician, however, should never have that power.
“We object to their legal requirement on the grounds of making women look at the pictures as some sort of method of coercion”
Wow, more ignorance, law. The VA bill and the TX bill merely require that women be given the CHOICE to view the ultrasound screen. It is not mandated that she do so. And since when is informed consent coercion? Wouldn’t you prefer that women have all the facts about the procedure they’re about to undergo, including accurate medical information about the child whose life they are ending?
Also, if Sandra Fluke isn’t having sex, why is she paying $3,000 over three years for contraception? Is she under the impression that pregnancy is a contagious disease that one can get from drinking from the same water fountain as a pregnant woman?
law: “We object to their legal requirement on the grounds of making women look at the pictures as some sort of method of coercion.”
Why would an examination of something by such means be coercion? Aren’t y’all supposed to be part of the “fact-based community” or somesuch? Isn’t the morphology of the fetus a relevant fact? I mean, when I break a bone I don’t NEED to see the x-ray, but everyone I’ve known who’s been through a break (or crack, or whatever) has been offered a view of things as they actually are.
Since when is more literacy concerning one’s bodily state a liability when seeking health care?
“Wow, more ignorance, law. The VA bill and the TX bill merely require that women be given the CHOICE to view the ultrasound screen”
It doesn’t matter. This bill was passed strictly for the express purpose of obtaining photographs or video of the fetus to serve some “informed consent” objective. This is a complete violation of ACOG standards, standards of basic sonography care, and insurance companies expressly deny coverage of these kinds of ultrasounds on the basis that they are not medically necessary.
Now, considering that obtaining photos or video of a fetus is NOT a medically indicated use of ultrasonography, here is the text of SB 484.
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?121+sum+SB484
“Why would an examination of something by such means be coercion?”
Why are you in favor of government mandated misuse of sonography at the personal expense of women seeking perfectly legal medical care?
law says:
For people who care so much about babies, you would think you’d want mothers to give birth in a place where they have immediate access to emergency care, rather than sluicing the thing in a kiddie pool full of water on the living room floor.
Wow. How anti-choice of you.
Why are you in favor of government mandated misuse of sonography at the personal expense of women seeking perfectly legal medical care?
Because we actually care about LIFE, including the lives of the women that are undergoing abortions. Had the abortionists of these women utilized ultrasound, these women would not have died:
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/blectopicdeaths.htm
And it’s not unheard of for abortions to be performed on women who are not actually pregnant. Talk about “misuse” of a medical procedure at the “personal expense of women”! An ultrasound would be useful to determine pregnancy.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa051706d.htm
Shoddy doctors exist. Women should be protected from them.
“Because we actually care about LIFE”
Well, until it’s born, and then it can die in a fire for all you care. Again, using ultrasound technology just for the express purpose of “informed consent” or to put pictures in women’s medical files is an incorrect usage of the technology.
“Wow. How anti-choice of you.”
I thought you were against women having the right to kill their babies. Now I guess it’s OK if they kill their babies during birth as long as it’s part of an ignorant protest of the medical profession? I guess it’s OK to kill fetuses as long as they’re part of an ideological statement?
For the record, I don’t give a single flake about where someone chooses to give birth. I don’t think anyone should have to endure medical treatment they don’t want, although if their child dies due to negligence, they should be charged with negligence.
law says:
“Because we actually care about LIFE”
Well, until it’s born, and then it can die in a fire for all you care.
Go ahead and ignore the lives of women that could have been saved by requiring ultrasound before an abortion. Just goes to prove that you don’t care about women’s lives.
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/blectopicdeaths.htm
Now I guess it’s OK if they kill their babies during birth as long as it’s part of an ignorant protest of the medical profession?
law, do you know anything about this issue at all? Researching this topic would do nothing to harm your pro-choice convictions. An accessible entry-level introduction is The Business of Being Born, a documentary available on Netflix. Here is the NY Times review of the movie: http://movies.nytimes.com/2008/01/09/movies/09born.html
As that review notes, homebirth is practiced widely in Europe and Japan. The US ranks well below Japan and most of Europe when it comes to infant mortality rates. There are a variety of factors involved in that, but if homebirth were a literal bloodbath of negligence and stupidity, you’d think that such results would have some effect on infant mortality rates.
Homebirth is by no means for everyone, as even this documentary points out, and modern medicine is one of the greatest advancements of civilization. But just like it’s quite possible and not at all irresponsible to recover from certain illnesses at home, it’s quite possible and not at all irresponsible to give birth at home. There are always extenuating circumstances and extreme cases, and by all means, any woman who chooses a hospital birth should be fully supported in that choice regardless of how “high risk” her pregnancy is or is not. But it’s just ignorant to sling insults around on this subject when you are ill-informed, and it’s pointlessly ignorant to do so when this topic really has little to do with the things you are trying to defend.
FYI I am agnostic, under-30, and in a committed long-term non-marital relationship. I was born in NYC and still live there today. I don’t believe that vaccines cause cancer but I do prefer a more European-inspired vaccine schedule, though having no children of my own I have certainly not researched this topic to its fullest extent. I am a progressive and I simply think that all choices should be informed by a pursuit of knowledge. It was that pursuit of knowledge that led me to realize that homebirth is not what I once thought it was.
law: “Well, until it’s born, and then it can die in a fire for all you care. ”
With an identical degree of warrant I could note how much you hated your bullying siblings and loathed your mother for the affairs she had.
In other words, it would be frightfully easy to be just as stupid as the troll.
Not exactly a rational triumph.
“Go ahead and ignore the lives of women that could have been saved by requiring ultrasound before an abortion. “
And to which politician/legislation should we credit these lives saved?
The entire Bible is hearsay but it didn’t occur to the vast majority
Booya! A religious bash and a “vast majority” in the same comment!! Gosh, we should really turn reading troll comments into a drinking game!
“And to which politician/legislation should we credit these lives saved?”
Hello, read the link!
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/deaths/blectopicdeaths.htm
These women DIED. Their lives were not saved. However, they could have been saved if their abortionists had done ULTRASOUNDS.
Ninek, I swore off alcohol (inter alia) for Lent. Reading your comment, this is the only time I’m regretting it. ;-)
“These women DIED. Their lives were not saved. However, they could have been saved if their abortionists had done ULTRASOUNDS.”
Here’s a comprehensive fact sheet on ectopic pregnancies from the AAFP. There is nothing about this that says the ACOG standards of not requiring ultrasound in every case before an abortion is wrong.
http://www.aafp.org/afp/2000/0215/p1080.html
“Historically, the hallmark of ectopic pregnancy has been abdominal pain with spotting, usually occurring six to eight weeks after the last normal menstrual period. This remains the most common presentation of tubal pregnancy in symptomatic patients. Other presentations depend on the location of the ectopic pregnancy. Less commonly, ectopic pregnancy presents with pain radiating to the shoulder, vaginal bleeding, syncope and/or hypovolemic shock.
Physical findings include a normal or slightly enlarged uterus, pelvic pain with movement of the cervix and a palpable adnexal mass. Findings such as hypotension and marked abdominal tenderness with guarding and rebound tenderness suggest a leaking or ruptured ectopic pregnancy. Case reports indicate that viable abdominal ectopic pregnancies may be discovered at cesarean section, albeit rarely.
Between 40 and 50 percent of ectopic pregnancies are misdiagnosed at the initial visit to an emergency department. Failure to identify risk factors is cited as a common and significant reason for misdiagnosis. A proper history and physical examination remain the foundation for initiating an appropriate work-up that will result in the accurate and timely diagnosis of an ectopic pregnancy.
Identification of risk factors can raise the index of suspicion and lend significance to otherwise minor physical findings. For example, subtle changes in vital signs, such as mild tachycardia or lower than usual blood pressure, should prompt further investigation. Scoring systems have been proposed to facilitate earlier diagnosis of ectopic pregnancy by indicating the level of risk as a function of weighted risk factors.
After a careful history and physical examination, ancillary studies may include a urine pregnancy test and determination of the serum progesterone level and serum quantitative ?-hCG levels.”
Now, is there anything in any documentation that you can find that a woman presenting with no symptoms whatsoever should be given a TVU??
LisaC: see my latest comment under the post about Sandra Fluke and the Georgetown student telling her to get some self respect.
That was the post where you not only failed to support your claim, but also added additional falsehoods, right? I responded there.
Following up on this gem from Rep. Issa: “They did a Google search. They looked and found that she was, in fact, and is a college student who appears to have become energized over this issue.”
Mr. Issa apparently is not familiar with the definition of “fact.” Ms. Fluke is not, in fact, a college student. She is, in fact, a law student. It is my opinion that Mr. Issa’s staff probably can’t be trusted to Google a weather report, but that is only my opinion. It is, however, a fact that they provided him with inaccurate information–assuming that he is telling the truth when he shifts the blame to his staff.
Now, is there anything in any documentation that you can find that a woman presenting with no symptoms whatsoever should be given a TVU??
Why, yes. It’s the current standard of care for 83% of NAF members.
http://www.lifenews.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/ultrasoundstudy.pdf
We don’t care about babies after they’re born?
Recall that it was pro-lifers (not abortion proponents) that were horrified when two so-called “ethicists” defended “post-birth” abortions in a medical journal.
See also: Obama’s record on “born-alive” legislation.
Though ad-hominem arguments won’t prove that abortion should be legal, nor will they prove that ultrasound bills shouldn’t be passed.
Nice try, LisaC. It is your opinion. Sadly (for you) your opinions do not equal facts. Throwing a hissy fit won’t change the fact that Fluke is a carefully engineered media circus and a liar.
http://moronicprochoicequotes.blogspot.com/2012/03/demagoguing-rape-exploiting-victims.html
nvm wrong thread
Nice try, LisaC. It is your opinion. Sadly (for you) your opinions do not equal facts.
You’re saying that whether Ms. Fluke is a college student or a law student is a matter of opinion, not fact? Moronic, you’ve outdone yourself.
TVUs are not an instrument of rape, in and of themselves. Neither are penises. Both *can* be instruments of rape if inserted into unwilling women, however. And it’s not “demonizing” either TVUs or penises to acknowledge that. As I said elsewhere, it’s a good thing for society to acknowledge that you can be raped by your husband or your doctor or your legislator. Rape isn’t something that only happens in dark alleys to “bad girls.”
The determination of which procedures are medically necessary should be left up to the medical community. Your legislators don’t decide what type of catheter tip ought to be used, or when to give a patient an x-ray. Why should they decide when to give a woman an invasive ultrasound? It’s a waste of their time, it’s outside their area of expertise, and it’s an abuse of their power. And a waste of legislator time is a waste of taxpayer money. So even the conservatives should be against this.
The bill mandated informed consent. Transvaginal ultrasounds were never a part of it. The type of ultrasound was left up to the physician.
The bill mandated an ultrasound “for” determining gestational age. TVUs are the ultrasound used for determining gestational age in early pregnancies. Early pregnancies are when most abortions occur. Ergo, most women seeking abortions would be mandated to have a TVU. The bill didn’t have to say “stick the wand in them” to ensure that doctors would be required to stick the wand in them.
The bill mandated informed consent. Transvaginal ultrasounds were never a part of it. The type of ultrasound was left up to the physician.
No, it wasn’t. The Virginia legislature rejected an amendment leaving the decision up to the physician.
LisaC:
Third time asking: how CAN bc cost three grand a year? Cat got your tongue?