Abortion support rising? If so, thank the GOP for aiding and abetting
Rasmussen released a new poll on November 14 indicating that 54% of likely voters now consider themselves pro-choice, while only 38% say they are pro-life.
In the aftermath of the election I told friends to expect a bump in abortion support.
I’m not saying I believe the pendulum has swung the other way by 15 points since the May Gallup poll.
But of course the dial has moved, given the fact Obama and Democrats made such a huge pitch for abortion, and given the fact they embedded themselves, pardon the pun, as the champions of free contraception.
The bigger problem, and it’s a recurring one, is Republicans didn’t fight back. Democrats gambled that they they wouldn’t, even though there was such a great amount of fodder, particularly against Obama.
Allahpundit at Hot Air blamed Todd Akin for the swing.
Yes, Akin and Richard Mourdock both made ridiculous statements on the rape issue. As I told one of my children several years back when her shoes got sucked off her feet after she wandered into a mud pit, “For such a smart person, that sure was stupid.”
But the Republican Party is partially to blame there, too, for two reasons, first for being so frightened about, ambivalent toward, or supportive of abortion that they abandoned these candidates faster than a one night stand.
Joe Biden can singlehandedly fill a Stupid Quote of the Day calendar, but his people stick with him no matter what he says.
Second, because the GOP is so averse to overt abortion support, they don’t teach talking points.
In total, this debacle demonstrates, as common sense would dictate, that politics plays a part in persuading public opinion on the life issue. The GOP should be as invested in educating on social issues as fiscal issues.
It’s not enough to support life in the platform, as nice as that is. And it’s not enough to leave the heavy lifting to pro-life groups.
Politically speaking, pro-lifers are fighting a two-front war. The pro-life issue was banished during the campaign season, and then the pro-life issue was blamed in part for several losses. This is ridiculous. I’m sick of it.
The GOP is creating a self-fulfilling prophecy on the life issue, squandering an American pro-life majority as if it didn’t/doesn’t exist.
While not mentioning abortion specifically, S. E. Cupp made this point on MSNBC’s Morning Joe on November 15. Liberal Donny Deutsch didn’t want to hear it. Of course the other side wants to push the meme that Americans have abandoned conservative principles. They want us to leave a void for them to fill…
To put it in politically expedient terms, the GOP establishment may not necessarily like the life issue, but they will never out-abortion the Democrats. Do they really think growing more silent on the life issue is somehow going to help them win something? Check out the above to see how that is working for them. They are dithering away one of the few majorities they have left.
If the GOP continues treating the life issue like it’s leprosy, they’ll be left with nothing. But they’ve got to do more than put up with us. They have to embrace us. They have to feature pro-life women as prominently as the Democrats feature pro-abortion women. They have to proudly and persuasively uphold the sanctity of human life.
Pro-lifers will never stop fighting to stop abortion.
But we only care about the Republican Party insomuch as it can help us.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I agree completely. But who else is responsible? The Church. With all due respect to Cardinal Dolan as a Prince of the Catholic Church, his prayer at the DNC was weak and ineffective. After DAYS of championing tax payer funded abortion on demand at the DNC, he missed an opportunity to stand up to the Democrats, but he didn’t do it (at least not enough).
I’m not surprised though. What are Catholic-Christians and other Christians (and non believers) to think when they see the leader of the Catholic Church in America yucking-it-up with Obama at the Al Smith dinner??
Very sad.
I actually didn’t have a problem with the whole Al Smith dinner thing. He was being pastoral. I will be sorely disappointed if the Church refuses to hold fast to her promise not to comply with the HHS Mandate. There are not many people who have a clue about the Al Smith dinner outside of NY, which was going Obama anyway. But if Catholic hospitals close, that affects a whole heck of a lot more people and would be a better testimony.
I reject everything dead-babies-r-us and always will. The PLINO’s and the CINO’s and RINO’s are chaff and need to be cleansed. It only takes 51% of the people being pro-life to put America on a pro-life trajectory.
Jeff is right in his assessment. It is the Church who has failed, but that has nothing to do with one man – Cardinal Dolan – though it has EVERYTHING to do with Christians pointing the finger everywhere but at themselves. The Church is not the hierarchy, it is the Body. We are the Body and we have not prayed, nor governed or led, the way the Bible demands that we should. The increase in abortion on demand, abortifacient birth control, child abuse, divorce, crime and polarizing hate-filled anonymous discussions on the internet lie firmly on the Church of Jesus. We are supposed to be salt and light. We have failed miserably, preferring to morph and meld into common debased society; more interested in protecting our reputations, finances and three cars in the garage.
IMHO.
Great point, Amy.
I honestly wouldn’t panic too much over this poll unless other firms start showing the same pattern. Doesn’t Rasmussen have a history of odd results?
Politicians throw us under the bus time and time again. This may finally usher in the opportunity for a third party candidate to actually gain some ground in an election. But remember, polls and the media can’t be trusted these days. I know it looks bad, but I see subtle changes in my soon-to-be-formerly pro-choice friends and family. I think in reality people are softening up but the tenacious abortion zealots don’t want us to know or believe that. Don’t lose heart or hope because if we do the enemy beat us in advance. We are at a tipping point, and I think that ultimately abortion will be eradicated. But it’s tough when we don’t have any politicians we can trust to represent our will. The lobbyists and judicial activists do SEEM to be winning for the adversary, but life always breaks free.
Take the humble bacteria, for example. Just single celled, it has managed to adapt to our antibiotics and now some bacteria thrive on the very substance that used to kill them. Go ahead, abortion zealots, and enjoy your false sense of security. Life triumphs. (all the dinosaurs aren’t extinct, many of them have evolved into birds!!)
But how ironic to see all that pink that abortionists are waving, while hundreds of thousands of baby girls are slaughtered because they are female.
Well said. It should be stressed that Gallup polled national adults, while Rasmussen polled likely voters. So the two results are not an apples to apples comparison. Still, such a discrepancy clearly shows that the GOP is doing something wrong (namely that they don’t communicate the pro-life position effectively, if at all).
Amy1, I agree and I am guilty. For years I didn’t do anything to help the prolife cause, I didn’t educate myself about my religion, I didn’t turn-off Much Music (MTV) fast enough. I viewed women with lustful eyes, I disrespected my parents, friends, and neighbours. I am tired of blaming others - they are so many others.
It is time to look in the mirror.
It is time to notice that Western society is founded on a specific notion of what constitutes freedom – that is a freedom to do good, to be moral, to be responsible to oneself and God for your moral actions. A concept of freedom that recognizes our actions in this life have eternal consequences. Me(We) Christians are called to be New Men and Women, forgetting our old ways of sin, drunkeness, lust, and greed. I need to recognize that Western society was built on religious principles, situated in a metaphysical reality that acknoweledges Good and Evil. I need to recognize that no society is free of metaphysical underpinnings, that all societies are situated in a metaphysical reality. The metaphysical reality is no longer seen by many people today because I have not told them about it. I have not told them about the one person who is the light in that metaphysical reality, who shows the way a person should live once they acknowledge this metaphysical reality. Without him, without Jesus, we put the light under a basket and we fall into darkness.
I will talk about my friend and brother Jesus more often.
All Western societies were/are Judeo/Christian theocracies utilizing democratic principles. For example, Ireland is a democratic Catholic theocracy while the United States is democratic Deist theocracy. Many want western societies to be secular atheocracies. I don’t agree with this non-belief belief system. This belief that metaphysical realities don’t exist is a metaphysical outlook!
I agree with everything you said Jill, I especially like it when you noticed the influence/feedback politics and politicians can have on society and culture. Ultimately, I believe politics is a lagging indicator trying to catch up where the culture is at. The culture unfortunately has lost its understanding of the Judeo-Christian ethical and metaphysical outlook. Their understanding of Freedom and happiness has changed. Freedom meant the freedom to pursue the good, the true, the just, and the beautiful. Now it means the freedom to pursue whatever you want. Happiness used to mean spending eternity with Good. Happiness meant salvation, and the pursuit of happiness was foreshadowing the first amendment.
Amy1, my plan, in fact, is to boast about Him.
A dude named Paul suggested that this was a good idea.
Doesn’t Rasmussen have a history of odd results?
They did a lousy job last election, so I wouldn’t make too much of those results.
Akin set the pro-life movement back politically, for sure. But the set back would not have been so profound if catechesis were not so insufficient, and that includes the catechesis of Akin himself.
40 Days for Life has done more in a few years than politicians have done in 40 years. We need to trust in Jesus, not politicians.
I do not blame the Republicans for distancing themselves from 2 supremely stupid pro-life men. They sounded extremely arrogant and paternalistic-please, do not make excuses. One cannot understand the Catholic vote yet again going for pro-abortion Democrats. We need to stop allying ourselves with groups who always let the pro-life movement down. Between Mourdock, Akin and supposed pro-life Democrats, the nails in the pro-life coffin are being pounded down hard.
Why blame politicains or the church? 80% of people believe that abortion should be legal in at least certain circumstances, a good number of those in all circumstances. Hard to make it illegal against those numbers.
“40 Days for Life has done more in a few years than politicians have done in 40 years. We need to trust in Jesus, not politicians.”
I fully support you in your effort to vote less and pray more.
As for the poll: it’s just an example of regression to the mean, partially brought on by the fact that this election has forced many low-information voters to actually consider what the “pro-life” movement’s long-term goals are (thank you, Mr. Akin and Mr. Mourdock, for your help with this). Rasmussen’s results dovetail nicely with a point that I’ve made here before: conservatives are good at selling labels (“pro-life”; “conservative”; “small government”) and bad at selling ideas (which, to be fair, is mostly because those ideas are appalling to any well-adjusted human being born after 1920 or so).
Reality,
You’re no Nate Silver.
“which, to be fair, is mostly because those ideas are appalling to any well-adjusted human being born after 1920 or so”
Except for, for example, the Polish people and Israelis, who have already suffered the end result of “progressive” policies. If we’re next, it won’t be long before we abandon the insanity of “progressive” ideology.
I don’t have to be Navi. The statistics were provided by this very site. 80% support abortion being legal in at least some circumstances.
Nobody ever disputed that fact. But it’s even less meaningful than the statistics you readily scoff at.
Exactly how was the question asked? Were there a series of questions? Were people saying they supported abortion only under limited circumstances lumped into the same category as those who support it in all circumstances? I would support it being legal in the case where the mother’s life is in danger. Where does that put me?
I recall one ”poll” where people were questioned on medicaid funding of abortion.
Do you oppose medicaid funding, thus condemning poor women to dangerous illegal abortion, or do you support medicaid funding, thus enabling poor women to access safe, legal abortion?
Not trying to elicit a certain response, are you?
Reality 6:55PM
Long before Roe state laws already made exceptions for rape, incest, fetal defect, and threat to the mother’s life. That most Americans support these exceptions, which account for a small percentage of abortions, is no surprise.
The question “With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?” is a subjective question. ‘Consider’. It all depends on exactly what people feel constitutes pro-choice and pro-life positions. Some people who would allow abortion in cases of rape or incest still consider themselves pro-life.
“Do you think abortion should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?” – is an objective question. There’s no interpretation of meaning. Its black and white.
52% think it should be legal under certain circumstances and 25% believe it should be legal under any circumstances.
So that’s 77%, not quite the 80% I stated earlier.
20% believe it should be illegal in all circumstances.
The numbers speak for themselves.
Xalisae that was a great post and pinpoints a lot of trouble I have with the GOP. I don’t agree with all of what you said (you can probably guess what) but I agree with most of it. Especially about gay marriage, pot and other personal freedom issues, and ending wars. Actually war mongering is my hugest problem with the GOP, and I honestly believe it’s part of the problem trying to get a consistent life ethic across to people who might otherwise support the GOP.
“Some people who would allow abortion in cases of rape or incest still consider themselves pro-life.”
Yeah… I also consider those people pro-life just somewhat illogical. I actually supported a rape exception for years before I realize it couldn’t possibly work if the fetus was going to be considered legally a person. I actually hate not having an exception, but it’s just not feasible. But anyway, my point is, the people against all abortions except for a few exceptions are more on our side than yours, Reality. They see an issue with abortion, most of them probably do understand that the fetus is a human organism that deserves legal protection. They are probably more often than not going to support anti-abortion legislation.
Abortion is much like the capitol punishment debate. When people say they support capitol punishment, do they mean for all criminals or under very limited circumstances? Do some people support it for rape as well as murder? I support capitol punishment, and while I enjoyed seeing Ted Bundy fry, and will be glad to see Scott Peterson get what he deserves, I don’t condone capitol punishment for every crime.
That’s a good analogy Mary. Death penalty is similar to abortion in regards to varying degrees of it. I want it illegal in all circumstances, a lot of people want it legal for the worst murderers only, still others think all murderers should be executed, still others think repeat sex offenders should be fried too, etc etc etc.
Reality,
So according to the poll, the vast majority of Americans oppose abortion on demand and support it under limited circumstances. The circumstances allowed by state law prior to Roe.
As you said Reality, the numbers do indeed speak for themselves.
“support it under limited circumstances. The circumstances allowed by state law prior to Roe” – ah, now you’re making assumptions. To some people the limited circumstances could include financial hardship or inability to cope with another child.
mods, I am really, really, REALLY sorry about my post-I thought I copied that again after I edited out the cursing in my word program, but apparently that is the original. If I could have it fixed, I would really really really appreciate it. Once again, I am very sorry. >_<
Lol X you are as bad as I am. :p
We are terrible people, Jack. :P
Reality,
Then it makes this poll even more questionable. You need to ask specific questions, like exactly what are the circumstances under which people will support abortion. Do they make one exception or half a dozen? Assumptions, as you say, cannot be made. This aspect of the poll is not “black and white”, it is ambiguous at best.
Interesting that only 25% support abortion under any circumstances, which is what we have now. Numbers do speak for themselves, right Reality?
ah, now you’re making assumptions.
And yet here you are, acting as though almost 80% of people support abortion on demand.
“Interesting that only 25% support abortion under any circumstances” – yes and only 20% say it should be illegal in all circumstances. So yes, the numbers do speak for themselves.
“And yet here you are, acting as though 80% of people support abortion on demand.” – it is eminently clear that I made no such claim. I cited the data provided and described what each was attributed to. You must have an extremely vivid imagination.
When the framers used the word “happiness”, they really meant “Jesus Christ.”
Lolwut Tyler?
Tyler, please provide a citation on that one.
Reality,
If you asked me if it should be illegal in all circumstances I would say “no” as well. I support an exception for any threat to the life of the mother. So again, a huge area of ambiguity. I may say I support life of the mother, someone else may say life of the mother and severe fetal defect. Again, questions have to be specific. People in this more ambiguous range may call themselve PL or PC.
Point is only a very small percentage, 25%, support the abortion policy now in effect. The numbers speak for themselves, right Reality?
Reality 10:00PM
You did say it would be hard to make abortion illegal with 80% either supporting it under all circumstances or some. Well, prior to Roe it was illegal, with the exceptions I mentioned. So
history has already shown that it wouldn’t be at all difficult to make it illegal.
Hi Tyler,
I am very fond of you so please listen to me when I advise you not to pick this battle. I respect if that is your belief, but to make it a statement of fact is another matter altogether.
Mary consider the battle picked.
This country, all countries are His.
Don’t mess with Him.
Tyler, no one cares that you believe and have faith that God owns the country or whatever. We are reacting to your silly claim that the framers, like, accidentally wrote happiness instead of Jesus lol. When I seek happiness I am not looking for God, and neither are some other people, and that’s okay for us to do. It doesn’t have to be threatening to you.
It is standard Christian theology that Jesus Christ is happiness. At the time the Constitution was written the general public understood that there was only one true place that happiness could be attained and that was in Heaven with Jesus Christ. Although the American public was comprised off different religions, or rather sects, they were predominantly if not all Christians. The framers would not have been conceiving of the Native American gods or conception of happiness when the Declaration was written or when the Constitution was written. If they were the Native American population would not have been so aggrieved. Thankfully, Christian values are an accomodating lot, and Christianity fosters the ideas of equality and egalitarianism so a Christian culture is good for everyone.
Tyler, I am of the opinion that if the framers of the Declaration had wanted to put “Jesus” instead of “happiness”, they would have, just like they said that we are endowed by our Creator. Thomas Jefferson wasn’t a traditional Christian like you were thinking of, and neither was Ben Franklin. Tyler, it really is okay that those of us that are not religious and that concepts that are not intrinsically tied to Christianity were involved in our country’s making. It doesn’t hurt anything, and it doesn’t mean that Christianity was not a part of the country. In fact, it makes us that much stronger that people of other faiths and no faiths were all involved in our founding. It shows that we were on our way to being a true nation of equality.
Jack et al, you don’t have to accept what I am saying is true in order to live in America, What I am telling you is good for your soul.
Jack name one other faith aside from Christianity that was involved in framing the US Constitution. Deism is a form of Christianity.
No, to live in the America you want I would not be allowed to vote or have a say in government. You said so yourself. It isn’t good for my soul to hear a countryman constantly trying to devalue non-Christian input into our founding. It’s actually quite alienating. This is every American’s country, Christians are equal, not privileged.
Actually, many of the Founding Fathers took ideas from the secular Enlightenment as well as from their faith.
Deism is not always a form of Christianity, don’t be absurd. There are Christian deists, however.
Furthermore, it is equally true today that happiness cannot be found here on earth, and that it can only be found in Heaven with Jesus, in a everlasting life that is spent with all Goodness, Joy and Beauty. This reality has not changed. If you wish to pursue Happiness, you must pursue Jesus Christ.
Jack the enlightment was not secular. It was profoundly deistic, especially in America.
Jack, the disenfranchisement crack was sarcastic and hyperbole but at the sametime has some wisdom since Christianity is good for everyone, including Jack.
Christians aren’t privileged but Jesus is priviliged and Christianity is privileged because God is true to his word, He is faithful to His people. Christians could be considered privileged in the sense that they know the word of God, have been given the gift of faith, and understand that the goal of life is Heaven.
But sure, make him a mod. It’s not like anything could possibly go wrong.
“Christians aren’t privileged…” then later:
“Christians could be considered privileged…”
Seems there may be a contradiction in need of resolution.
No, disenfranchisement has no wisdom. None. It never will. The basis of our free society is the ability to choose our representative government and laws. The fact that you would even consider taking that away from a big chunk of the population is scary. You don’t seem to realize how important the right to vote and choose your representatives is. People DIE for that right Tyler. I wonder what men and women in the military would have to say about this “wisdom”. The fact that you think that there is some wisdom to that is downright scary. The fact that you would probably support removing some of my freaking civil rights is scary. The fact that you have absolutely no respect of non-religious people is scary.
You know, I will be completely honest with you just in the hopes that something might sink in. I spent years struggling to rid myself of the bitterness and hate I felt towards Christians and Christianity because of what my parents did to me and how the church treated me. I never met a Christian who was loving and kind (my in-laws have known me since I was a baby and they aren’t bad people, but they did ignore abuse for their own convenience and I hated them for it for a long time) until I was in my late teens. I still have a lot of issues with my bias, and I am really working to overcome it. I have actually been talking to Carla for a long time through email trying to work through this and what I believe and my bitterness towards God if I even believe he exists.
The way you talk on this blog, the way you constantly treat me (or any non-religious person) and my values and opinions with utter disrespect because I don’t share your faith, that is driving me right back towards me “screw this crap and all the people too” attitude I had for my entire life until I made a huge effort to work on it. I don’t know if you care, but you talk to me a lot so I assume that you care a little, but you are really making my search for peace and faith a lot more difficult. I know I am responsible for my own thoughts and feelings, but you are not showing the love and care that you claim that you have for humanity through Jesus. I don’t know why you can’t put yourself in someone else’s shoes for a minute. If you actually care about saving souls, treating people like they are garbage since they aren’t able to be where you are at in terms of beliefs is really the wrong tactic to take.
Oh and I apologize to any other Christians that have been offended by my overly anti-religious attitudes lately. I am sorry, and I really am trying to work on it.
“But sure, make him a mod. It’s not like anything could possibly go wrong.”
Trying to get another comment deleted tonight? :)
Jack, I have respect for non-religious people they simply don’t have respect for me or for Jesus. Sure they give Jesus lip service but they don’t really mean it. They deny his divinity, and they do all kinds of wicked things against Him and His Body.
Being Christians doesn’t mean you won’t do wrong, it just means you recognize that you are sinner. It enlightens you to the weakness that is in you, the flesh that dies and whithers away. It means you acknowledge that this life is fleeting and that true eternal happiness cannot be attained here.
I am not here to support other Christians who have done wrong. That is not what Christianity is about. I am here to tell you that Christianity is about the Happiness God has planned for you and your children in the afterlife. I am here to tell you about the beatific vision and the beatitudes. It is just a reality. You can take it or leave it. I hope you take it.
My life has been full of ups and downs, joys and sorrows, and the only person who was ever there through thick and thin was Jesus. He is with me in the silent moments and the loud moments. It his forbearance of my wrongdoings that I am thankful for. I have done so much wrong, but I have been forgiven. You can hate me for what I say, it does not matter to me. I didn’t deserve to be born, but yet here I am. He made me. He made you.
I don’t think I have treated anyone as garbage. I have only said that I believe in Jesus Christ, and that He is King and Savior of the World. You can ignore me, and Him if you want. It is your loss.
Jack you have not expressed an overly anti-religious attitude.
Jack, I forgot to mention people have died for Christ too, Americans have died for Christ.
And I have a right to say all this because Jesus Christ said I did. This is His world.
Tyler.
You do not have respect for non-religious people. You can claim that, but you do not have respect for people that you say have no values, say that they don’t deserve to vote, say that Christians should be privileged over them, say that they are simply denying God and just don’t want to do the hard work to be a Christian, and all the other stuff you believe about us. That’s not respect. And whatever you say, I actually do have respect for religious people, as much as it’s possible for me to have with my hang-ups. Not believing in Jesus’s divinity isn’t disrespect.
Carla tells me at least every couple of days how much she loves God, how much he has done for her, and how much he loves and forgives me and wants me to be his own. She tells me this all the time. She’s never offended me, not even once. She’s never hurt me. She’s actually gotten me closer to God if he exists than anyone ever has. You know why? Because she shows me genuine love and compassion. I actually believe that she’s not trying to shove things down my throat and cause me pain, and I don’t connect her in my brain to the what I thought Christians were when I was a kid.
It’s not your beliefs that upset and hurt other people (well, some people might get upset by you just sharing them, but I don’t). It’s the way you treat other people. You’re honestly cruel, dude. You accuse me of things I don’t support, you refuse to actually listen to what I say, you basically treat me and anyone who doesn’t share your beliefs as a lesser human being. You are a lot like people I was raised around. I don’t think you do it out of malice, I really don’t. But not trying to hurt people doesn’t mean that the things you say are right.
Tyler,
I seem to remember from a couple years back that you’re Canadian, and some of your spelling seems to indicate that. I don’t know where you got this idea of happiness = Jesus Christ. Can you remember if it was in school or Sunday school?
x,
I may be the only other mod around, not having respectable hours. ;) Maybe you can facebook message me on what you want stricken from the record. I only remember a bs that should’ve remained a bs. :) And a milder shade of the “f” word”.
I think you mistake my faith for cruelity. So be it. Carla can be compassionate – perhaps that is her gift, a grace given to her by God.
And he gave me the ability to offend and unsettle people. To exhort. Hopefully, they are people who need to be unsettled and offended. I have faith He knows what He is doing.
Not believing in Jesus’ divinity means, most likely, that you don’t have faith that He rose from the dead, and ascended into Heaven, because surely, someone has already told you about this since you were raised a Christian. It is fine for you not to believe this, but just don’t expect to go to Heaven and to be with Jesus for eternity.
But if you have the desire to go to Heaven please have the courage to at least acknowledge where that desire came from.
“support it under limited circumstances. The circumstances allowed by state law prior to Roe” – ah, now you’re making assumptions. To some people the limited circumstances could include financial hardship or inability to cope with another child.”
Yes, their exceptions would then not be exceptions at all really. When would they oppose abortion? For super rich people?
Tyler I’m sorry I can’t respond to you on this blog anymore. I don’t think it’s good for me. Take care man.
You too Jack.
But please remember, for clarity’s sake, that my views in no way reflect the views of the blog’s owner, or constitute the opinion of the blog contributers/other moderators.
Well, this has been an interesting conversation. Good night everyone.
Hans, I did not get it from any textbook. It is just my opinion/interpretation.
Hans, yes I live in Canada.
Well, I won’t hold that last against you. ;)
As I remember it, the Federalist Papers and other sources describe “the pursuit of happiness” as freedom over one’s property / wealth.
This is why I agree most with Republicans over Demeocrats, who seem to like a more repressive government.
Property: Restrictions like declaring a mud puddle a wetland, “Eminent Domain” and the like. Wealth: Taxes. ‘Nuff said.
Liberty: Well, everything from the size of soda you can buy to who you can’t fire for personal / moral reasons.
Life: Really ’nuff said.
Property was very important throughout history. I have heard that argument/interpretation of the phrase “pursuit of happiness” before, but slightly different. If I remember correctly, Arthur Brooks in his recent book The Road to Freedom thought/interpreted it to mean the right to pursue earned success. But in his book he alluded to the interpretation you raised, but I think he mentioned that there hasn’t been a definitive consensus as to what it refers to, although the one you mentioned seems to be the most prevalent among historians.
Thank GOD.
Hans, perhaps the true piece of real estate/property that the framers were refering to was the plot that is received in Heaven for fighting the good fight, since Heaven is the only place where true Happiness exists.
I’ll just go ahead and post the altered one here, and the old one can be deleted. Thanks!
Dear GOP,
I love you, but you need a little makeover. Let me help.
1.) You don’t have to say you oppose gay marriage if you just get government out of the marriage business. I think most people don’t WANT government there, anyway. Offer civil unions for everyone, and let them use those to build a marriage on if they want a marriage. Give religious bodies the right to refuse to wed any parties th
ey choose. Everyone gets what they want, you don’t have to support them when they get it. Win-win.
2.) Step 1: Legalize marijuana. Step 2: License sellers. Step 3: Tax it. Step 4: PROFIT. We’ll save money on incarceration by turning it into legitimate business. We’ll employ more people in a new industry. We’ll gain tax and licensing revenue. The criminal underbelly that’s been fostered by the illegal drug trade will be subverted. I will buy stock in Frito-Lay. When you SAY you’re the party of freedom and individual liberty, people will actually BELIEVE you!
3.) Start the abortion fight by kicking it back to the states. What most people don’t realize is, MANY states already have laws in place that will make abortion illegal in that state upon the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Once most if not all states (*sigh*, New York and California, I’m looking at you, you friggin’ morons) have ended the practice there, then you can codify it with a Constitutional Amendment. It’s going to take A LOT of education! It’s going to take a HUGE fight against a giant industry-The Big Abortion Machine-and that’s a lot of money and disinformation against which to battle. But, we can do it. Never forget: WE HAVE THE TRUTH ON OUR SIDE.
4.) The indoctrinated youth culture is kicking your butt. Teacher’s unions are just an arm of the DNC, and they’re pumping kids’ heads full of b.s. Union-busting would be a good start, and it’s popular these days. Mitt Romney might not be president, but Scott Walker is still governor of Wisconsin. Start looking within your ranks for engaging, entertaining young people who can be influential role-models for the next generations. We’ve got to stop this cycle soon, or else the grandchildren of the brainwashed youth who helped give Obama his second term won’t have an America of their own.
5.) Part of the reason Americans buy Obama tripe is because it SOUNDS good. Nobody likes war. Nobody wants to be involved in war. It sounds good on its face, but it’s impractical with the way the world is right now. So, support ending wars. Bring our troops home from hostile nations…AND THEN FORTIFY THE EVER-LOVING CRAP! OUT OF OUR BORDERS!!! I hear that part of the reason we go easy on illegal immigration is because business owners like cheap labor, and illegal immigrants who won’t be able to collect social security are using other peoples’ numbers and propping up a failed system. Guess what? NOBODY can get a job these days, so there is all the AMERICAN cheap labor they could ever want, beyond their wildest dreams. Americans can work for their OWN retirement benefits. If were thinking about phasing social security as it is right now out, anyway, what does it MATTER?! We won’t have to worry so much about what is going on in other countries if we can take better care of our own by making it easier to keep secure.
In closing, I’d just like to say that although these are the only ones I could think of at the moment, I’m sure I’ll come up with more later. I’m very helpful that way.
Love,
x
Thank-you for asking me those questions Hans.
x,
So, gonna crack the whip, eh? Okay, will do.
Tyler, don’t go gaga on us. They were God-fearing men, but not wifty little old ladies.
You’re seriously Canadian Tyler? Like still live in Canada? Good lord man then stop telling me I am not good enough for my own country and go work on Canada’s no abortion limits whatsoever. I mean, for goodness sake.
Okay, last comment I direct at you, Tyler. I need to stop this. Sorry everyone.
no limits, and all are taxpayer-funded. So, there’s that.
Hans,
Sorry if I’m being pushy. I appreciate your offer of help very much!
x,
Oh, it feels kind of good to “unapprove” even someone I like. I feel the power! ;)
Jack, I have respect for non-religious people they simply don’t have respect for me or for Jesus. Sure they give Jesus lip service but they don’t really mean it. They deny his divinity, and they do all kinds of wicked things against Him and His Body.
Tyler,
We have to be careful not to sound like that other religion that goes all hysterical at the slightest disrespect. God doesn’t need little ants like us to defend Him.
Hans, I am not defending Him, I am celebrating Him publicly. I am trying to boast about Him when asked. You are correct He needs no defense, He is in Heaven.
Mary asked me not to assert that I believe that Jesus is Lord of all the Nations. I had to refuse that request. Then my statement of my beliefs bothered some others. No one is obligated to agree with me, but I am allowed to say what I believe.
I feel sorry for those who feel that they can’t announce that they stand with Jesus and state publicly that they believe He is Lord of all, which includes the universe and everyone in it.
I know that there are others who feel differently and they are free to do so and free to state their beliefs. I have never once asked them not to state their beliefs. If they choose not to that is their right.
I apologize if you think I sound hysterical. I wish I were a bit hysterical. To me, everything I have said is a matter of faith not hysteria.
Hans I hope you and the others understand my predicament: I am a slave of Jesus Christ.
If you deny my Lord’s divinity, I will tell you that you are wrong. He is divine.
Hi Tyler,
That is not what I asked you. I said I respect your beliefs and I do. Making a statement of fact is another matter. Knowing exactly what our Founding Fathers meant is a matter of historical debate. If you believe they meant this, fine with me.
There are still historical debates over whether or not Abraham Lincoln was a racist. We can never really know what is in a man/woman’s heart.
Sorry Mary, I thought the contents of my statement made it obvious that it was not a statement of fact but an interpretation and a statement of faith. I thought you were being sarcastic and questioning the faith expressed in my statement. Unfortunately, it is not exactly clear what Jefferson meant when he wrote those words.
Mary, clearly whatever definition of happiness Jefferson had in mind surely there must have been limitations to it, if he had in mind natural happiness. Surely, he did not envision a person pursuit of happiness to include choosing abortion or harming others. He had already mentioned liberty, so he clearly must have meant something else – to say that he meant economic freedom and property ownership seems rather mundane. Surely economic freedom and property ownership are encompassed in the concept of liberty.
Hi Tyler,
As I said I am fond of you and would not be sarcastic or disrepectful of your beliefs. I regret that was your interpretation. No you did not specify that was your religious belief, you made it sound like a statement of fact.
Quite true that we can’t know what Jefferson specifically meant. Or if Lincoln was a racist. We can at best only speculate on what is in a person’s mind or heart.
As one possible interpreatation of what Jefferson meant when he said “the pursuit of happiness”, it is a reasonable one. Even though Jefferson later in life denied all the supernatural events in the Bible, and became a Unitarian in his later life according to some, it is a fact that he was raised Episcopalian and that he had a profound respect for the morality of Christianity. It is highly likely that he was aware that eternal life with Jesus Christ represented humankind’s true happiness.
Pro lifers/social conservatives are primarily concerned about morality. Fiscal conservatives are primarily concerned about money. Sooner or later pro-lifers/social conservative need to wake up and realize that you can’t make money moral. You have to drive the money-changers out of the temple.
Outlaw abortion under the Constitution as an act of murder, via a constitutional ammendment and arssert it’s inhumanity as Lincoln did with the thirteenth ammendment.
Only one thing. We don’t have a Ghettysburg address, which, as is writ above, lists all the talking points and hard line argument which clearly imprints and immoralizes the direct action of feticide in relationship to where this country was “fourscore and seven years ago.”
American History does not approve of abortion.
It’s a consumerist culture that condones such despair as a great revenue and freedom -they sell it to us as women’s freedom, but it needs to be pointed out, women mostly are not benefitting. We may not have to gestate for nine months, which is of course, extremely difficult and non-paying. However, the amount of death’s including deaths from medical malpracitce and suicide to women are heinous and snowed over.
“Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women.”
Susan B. Anthony
As for the rest of society, then are supposed to think we are the ones benefitting from not having to pay for “welfare babies,” another gender based slur on boor women.
It is the most perverted members of our culture that are in favor of feticide.
We, in the movement, need to be less guarded and competative and much more fluid with dialog. I had no problems with what Akin said. I think there are illegitimate cases in which a woman cries rape, and isn’t raped. Of course we need to address the horrific degradation of women, but what Todd Akin said was so removed from hurting or helping women in domestic violence situations, that it virtually had no impact on any one except political pundits, who could *tint* the window to dim the light of the Repulican Party, more than not, it hurt because Republicans were faster to denounce Akin than they were to defend true victims of rape and applaud the heroic of the whistle blowers who oust their attackers, which takes immense courage and mettle, often times because the accuser will be accused in return, of course right after being intimately imposed upon, which takes above and beyond emotional strength, it is something the average person simply can’t do, and certainly not by themselves.
A large support group is needed for the victims of rape, but more so for the victims of abortion.
Where are the videos on youtube where women can watch in the privacy of their own homes a healing Church service. The Church was hard-pressed to be civilized to Obama and still is, it is hard to understand, but understandable considering the rise fo anti-Catholicism.
However, where are we promoting anti-abortion resources for women in their Church’s?
We provide post abortive resources for women. We talk about charity in Church, but onyl financially, why are we shoing no charity to the young abandoned mother, silenced by shame?
I say this not to Catholics but also to the so-called value system of the Republican Party.
We need to reassert who we are, not only as Republicans, but as Christians first.
And Class one carcinogen birth control should be illegal. If not illegalized it should be very clearly labelled. That is a woman’s rights issue.
Also, there should be pending legislation that allows for consumers to know if a product has been tested on a fetus or embryo. Especially if there are same such cells *in* the product as there *are* in many skin care products and we simply have no knowledge of it, because there is no law in place to protect us.
I think the Republican Party will be just as quick to respond as Pepsico was if we start can cadre our support elsewhere.
If your in SoCAl, here this is just for fun!:
http://www.go2bat4life.com/
Jack, I feel your pain. A certain commenter here (not on this thread) makes me want to scream at my monitor and it’s sooo difficult not to respond sometimes.
Even if every human being on the planet is wrong about the nature of God, that wouldn’t be evidence that God didn’t exist, it would only be evidence that every human being was partially incorrect.
But I’ve been doing a lot of reading, and surprisingly there is a lot of material on neurology and religious activity. The fact seems to be that part of our brain grows and develops as a result of religious activity, such as meditating, praying, and chanting. That would lend credence to the idea that faith is evolutionarily superior to atheism. Interestingly enough, one book especially described how similar the brain activity is in both Buddhists and Catholics when they pray.