Stanek Sunday funnies: “Forward” edition
My top six favorite political cartoons this week…
by Daryl Cagle at politicalcartoons.com…
by Steve Breen at Townhall.com…
by Dana Summers at GoComics.com…
by Gary Varvel at Townhall.com…
by Jim Morin at GoComics.com…
by Ted Rall at GoComics.com…

Correction: Just found out that the two U.S. properties oin Benghazi that were overrun and razed were neither an embassy or a consulate, but were ‘missions’. At least that is the term used by the white house and the state department to describe the facilities.
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/this-is-what-benghazi-consulate-really-was/
According to Middle Eastern security officials speaking to WND, the so-called consulate was more of a diplomatic meeting place for U.S. officials, including Stevens.
The security officials divulged the building was routinely used by Stevens and others to coordinate with the Turkish, Saudi and Qatari governments on supporting the insurgencies in the Middle East, most prominently the rebels opposing Assad’s regime in Syria.
Last month, WND broke the story that Stevens played a central role in recruiting jihadists to fight Assad’s regime in Syria, according to Egyptian security officials.
Stevens served as a key contact with the Saudis to coordinate the recruitment by Saudi Arabia of Islamic fighters from North Africa and Libya. The jihadists were sent to Syria via Turkey to attack Assad’s forces, said the security officials.
The officials said Stevens also worked with the Saudis to send names of potential jihadi recruits to U.S. security organizations for review. Names found to be directly involved in previous attacks against the U.S., including in Iraq and Afghanistan, were ultimately not recruited by the Saudis to fight in Syria, said the officials.
As WND reported, questions remain about the nature of U.S. support for the revolutions in Egypt and Libya, including reports the U.S.-aided rebels that toppled Muammar Gadhafi’s regime in Libya consisted of al-Qaida and jihad groups. The U.S. provided direct assistance, including weapons and finances, to the Libyan rebels.
Similarly, the Obama administration is currently aiding the rebels fighting Assad’s regime in Syria amid widespread reports that al-Qaida jihadists are included in the ranks of the Free Syrian Army. Earlier this month, Obama announced $50 million more in aid to the Syrian rebels.
During the revolution against Gadhafi’s regime, the U.S. admitted to directly arming the rebel groups.
At the time, rebel leader Abdel-Hakim al-Hasidi admitted in an interview that a significant number of the Libyan rebels were al-Qaida fighters, many of whom had fought U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.
He insisted his fighters “are patriots and good Muslims, not terrorists,” but he added that the “members of al-Qaida are also good Muslims and are fighting against the invader.”
The deaths of Ambassador Christopher Stevens, Sean Smith, Tyrone Woods and Glen Doherty argue against the policy of working with people who hate us and want to destroy us.
This might explain the obamateur’s repeated attempts to blame his ‘phluck up’ on a 10 minute video clip made by a Egyptian coptic christian living in the United States.
b o always blames someone else for his ‘phluck ups’.
But there are still questions to be answered as to why no, zero, nada, none…support was provided to Americans repeated requests for help in the more than six hours it took for the assault to conclude.
Where are photos and videos of the obamateur and his team sitting in the situation room watching in real time as the slow motion rape of America played out before their eyes.
Hopefully, for the sake of the nation, Petraeus will now have complete liberty to answer all the pertinent questions.
President Obama, perhaps preoccupied with his upcoming Las Vegas fundraiser, met with Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Vice President Joe Biden in the Oval Office at 5 p.m. ET, a little more than an hour after the onset of the attack.
He could have given the order but did not, even after an email, in which the al-Qaida-tied group Ansar al-Sharia claimed responsibility, arrived at 6:07 p.m. ET to a distribution list that included the White House Situation Room.
Read More At IBD: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/102512-630874-no-marines-with-bayonets-at-benghazi.htm#ixzz2BvUxsixr
Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
“It is the strangest of bureaucratic rituals: Every week or so, more than 100 members of the government’s sprawling national security apparatus gather, by secure video teleconference, to pore over terrorist suspects’ biographies and recommend to the president who should be the next to die.
This secret “nominations”process is an invention of the Obama administration, a grim debating society that vets the PowerPoint slides bearing the names, aliases and life stories ofsuspected members of Al Qaeda’s branch in Yemen or its allies in Somalia’sShabab militia.
The nominations go to the White House, where by his own insistence and guided by Mr. Brennan, Mr. Obama must approve any name. He signs off on every strike in Yemen and Somalia and also on the more complexand risky strikes in Pakistan — about a third of the total.
But the control he exercises also appears to reflect Mr. Obama’s striking self-confidence: he believes, according to several people who have worked closely with him, that his own judgment should be brought to bear on strikes.”
Ken – good to see you made it through the elections!
Some other good ones – my favorite is the ‘GOP Message Fails’
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/politicalcartoons/ig/Political-Cartoons/
Lol the “GOP Message Fails” is good. But that’s totally not why they lost. Not at all.
The only thing I would have added is that the people in the cartoon that are heading over the fiscal cliff should be popping champagne (drunk) and there should be a bunch of liberals holding signs that say Obamacare and cheering them on.
More downsizing of businesses because of Obama’s victory and fear of rising taxes and Obamacare costs. In case some of you don’t comprehend what that means, its layoffs, layoffs, layoffs. That means fewer people to provide “free” services, or to use the services provided by other businesses.
http://theeconomiccollapseblog/archives/share-this-massive-list-of-post-election-firings-and-layoffs-with-everyone-you-can
Check out the fate of Hurricane Sandy victims and get an idea of government efficiency and Obama’s concern. More dead bodies have been found. How nice the Dear Leader could get a round of golf in yesterday but will make time in his busy schedule to visit the victims on Thursday. Fine lot of thanks these folks have gotten for supporting Obama!
My goodness, one would think that a man who could heal the planet and lower the sea levels would have certainly been able to order the hurricane away from our shores. I mean, there were people who actually thought George Bush personally directed Hurricane Katrina to destroy levees in New Orleans, resulting in the massive flooding.
Isn’t it reassuring that these are the people who will be handling your healthcare?
Sorry everyone, my bad
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/share-this-massive-list-of-post-election-firings-and-layoffs-with-everyone-you-can
One would think that, after all the systematic lies by Republican pollsters, the far right would begin to question some of their other “information” sources.
Like “the economic collapse blog.” Bias towards a desired outcome? Maybe?
You folks are living in your own little world and it tells you exactly what you want to hear.
Oh, don’t forget to buy a copy of the mommy survival book and some of those survival seeds.
BWAHAHAHAHA!
mp,
I know, the blog is just part of another sinister plot involving Ayn Rand and “Atlas Shrugged”.
BTW, any sources on what Obama has done to help hurricane victims or are those not so rosy reports biased “toward a desired outcome” as well”?
Mary, they lied to you.
All you need to do is check out some of the analysis on Red State. That should be “right” enough for you. Even they have figured it out: If the numbers didn’t come out the way they wanted, “de-skew” them.
They cooked the books. In fact, they cooked the books so completely they even deluded themselves.
@mp.
Big Joe, wherever you are, thank you for reminding me of your words of wisdom and none too soon. I know you are always watching over me.
Laugh at idiots, make fun of idiots, let them make fools of themselves, but NEVER argue with one.
Laugh at idiots, make fun of idiots, let them make fools of themselves, but NEVER argue with one.
I’ll take that as a non-denial denial. Too bad.
truth – only way we go over the fiscal cliff is if the two parties care more about their parties than they do about the American people. There’s 10 ways to get this done and only one way not to.
Hi Mary:
You are spot on. Our “brave new world” president and his handlers and the enablers in the MSM are in full alternative universe mode. All we hear is how wonderful things are while our economy is collapsing and food stamps and poverty and real unemployment rates are at record levels and rising. I especially like the comics “Forward” and “Victory Parade”. What we have to look forward to are higher taxes, energy costs, rising commodity and food prices, and unemployment.
And now we learn today post mortem Nov. 6 that more people then ever were added in one month to the food stamp rolls. This revelation was withheld past the normal time it would have been released (as was the Petraeus revelation) in order to prevent criticisms of the Great One lest the masses be awakened from their slumber. And even better news is that 70 million people are now on medicaid. Even as states are already having to trim medicaid budgets we are adding millions to the rolls…everything is rainbows and lollypops!!
What in the world is wrong with you for not having confidence in their ability to manage your health care?
Mary – we’ll be fine. Stop being so doom and gloom.
This isn’t 2008 – Bush is gone – the economy isn’t collapsing, it is growing.
At any point in history, people can find bad news if they search for it. You’ll be able to find plenty of reasons not to be optimistic. That is your choice.
In two more years, the GOP will have their chance to sell their message again. We’ll see if they do better with their plans next time.
Jerry, the new people on Medicaid, where do you think they got their healthcare from before?
EGV, 1:57PM
Big Joe please, no need to shout in my ear, I heard you the first time!
All I know is yet another friend lost his job last Friday. One friend has been out of work for over 3 years, another one for 2 years, and many more have lost their jobs in the last couple of months. I don’t see it getting any better. :(
Saw this song rewrite in the comments on one of the linked sites. It struck me as painfully true. Lord, have mercy.
My Country tis of thee,
Land of Stupidity –
Of thee I weep.
Land where the unborn die,
land full of porn, gay pride,
kiss truth and sense goodbye,
whereby madness reigns.
Hi Jerry 1:54PM
Interesting the very people who gloat over delusional Republicans, I’m an Independent BTW, for obvious reasons, now seem themselves to be retreating into fantasyland.
From what I have read Petraeus can still testify.
Come on Jerry, if the gov’t can run our health care as efficiently as they’ve handled the hurricane aftermath, we can all rest well.
There’s 10 ways to get this done and only one way not to.
Ex-RINO, care to share those 10 ways to avoid the fiscal cliff?
I’m not a Republican, nor are many pro-lifers. But dream on, sore winners. The Zero didn’t win by a landslide, all his MSM minions were able to do was drag his sorry carcass over the finish line just like one of last week’s cartoons.
I know math is not a favored skill among the socialists, but who do they suppose is going to work and fill the coffers to pay for all their free abortions and tummy tucks? Where ARE the worker bees going to come from? Hmm? Gonna pull some through your new Rainbows n Unicorn Stargate??
ninek, sadly I think they realize that already and their plan is to borrow money from China and print money.
And if thats not enough deficits are no concern to them either.
Now come on Ninek and ts,
Its not all that complicated. Haven’t you heard that “free Obama money” comes from Obama’s “stash”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIkksi344cM
You guys are gonna keep on this whole spiel for a while, aren’t you?
The last 3 are spot on. But I’d take Ted Rall’s with a grain of salt. He’s crazy left, like Michael Moore. He thinks straight-up, in your face unbridled socialism will magically improve the economy.
His early “work” in the Village Voice depicted pro-lifers as buck-toothed yahoos who always wore fezzes, for some reason.
Yeah, an odd lot, those people who don’t want babies dismembered. (Eyebrow raising emoticon. Help me, x! :) )
Jack Borsch @2:01…
I suspect the same place many of them got money for food: from jobs.
So you don’t think all these people who are being added to Medicaid were uninsured before? You think they all had jobs that offered healthcare benefits until Obama took office or something?
truth – I didn’t literally mean “ten” things – what I meant was, if the two sides put Americans first, they’ll get this done. They can craft a small compromise to get through and then put larger changes in place. They can quickly repass the Bush extensions minus the extensions for the wealthy.
The fiscal cliff only happens if the two parties decide they’d like to try to make the other party look bad by failing to get something done. With a number of outgoing politicians that don’t have to worry about backlash from compromising, they’ll get it done.
Mary – where did the Bush stimulus checks come from – was that Obama money as well?
Hush Ex. You know very well that the Bush stimulus went to Real, Hard-Working Americans ™ and that any entitlements from Obama just go to jobless losers. Duh. :)
Jack -
:-)
Hey -you’ve taken quite the interest in health care solutions and preventative care – interesting article I read this morning with some of the craziness of our current health care system:
http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/state-and-regional/unknowns-in-health-care-coverage-worry-those-who-may-need/article_395fd9fe-2c10-11e2-83d2-0019bb2963f4.html
Jack:
I answered your first question which was “the new people on Medicaid, where do you think they got their healthcare from before?” You will note that I said “many” not “all” got their medical care from jobs.
My question to you is how do you think the 14 plus million now added to the food stamp rolls since 2008 put food on the table before Obama got in office?
The obvious point is that millions more do not have work since Obama has taken office. This is the reason for increased participation in medicaid and food stamps.
Obama’s record on job growth, such as it is, is pathetic. The growth in the food stamp participation rate is 75 times greater than job growth in his four years. I have not run the numbers yet on the medicaid participation rate but care to guess if it has grown faster than job growth?
Jerry -
Also note though that food stamp eligibility has changed a lot in the past decade:
2002 Farm Bill – expanded eligibility to noncitizens, more benefits to family with children, made it easier to enroll, and adjusted it up for inflation
2008 Farm Bill – higher minimum benefits
2009 Stimulus – scrapped limits to adults without children and raised max benefit
In 2004 there were 45.5 million people without insurance, 15.6% of the population. In 2010 there were 49.9, 16.3% of the population. So, you can blame a few million of those uninsured on Obama’s lack of job growth, I guess, disregarding other factors.
I’d tell you left-wingers that we’re likely going the way of Greece, but I know you don’t care. Instead I will pray for the country and hope that this veterans who bled for freedom don’t see American freedom ended by bureaucrats.
ex opines:
This isn’t 2008 – Bush is gone – the economy isn’t collapsing, it is growing.
Whistling the happy tune and drinking the Obama kool aid will not make things better. There is no end to the trillion dollar deficits in sight and Obama has not a clue about economic reality. We had our chance to elect someone who does know economic reality, but we would rather align ourselves with the Obamaphone lady and others who look to Obama as Santa Claus.
Ex says:
Also note though that food stamp eligibility has changed a lot in the past decade:
2002 Farm Bill – expanded eligibility to noncitizens, more benefits to family with children, made it easier to enroll, and adjusted it up for inflation
2008 Farm Bill – higher minimum benefits
2009 Stimulus – scrapped limits to adults without children and raised max benefit
Correct. And I would add this is unsustainable in a contracting economy. When things are going well everyone benefits. But our largess has its limits. This is something Obama and his supporters do not seem to understand.
Jerry – that’s factually wrong. If the status quo is held for next year, the projection is a $1.1 trillion deficit. If the fiscal cliff is hit (tax increases and spending cuts), while we could fall into a recession, the deficit would be somewhere around 600 billion. So depending on what they do, it could be under $1 trillion as soon as 2013 (so no, I wouldn’t say that the trillion dollar deficits have no end in sight).
Jerry -
I’ll just note that two of those three expansions were signed by a Republican President.
Long term, it needs to change.
When you’re flinging blame though, make sure you understand who you are flinging blame at.
By the way, are you as upset about tax breaks to massive corporations – the handouts they get – or is it only poor people? I’ve only seen you upset at handouts to poor people. Why is that?
EGV 4:42PM
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/extra/video/blog/2009/03/where_does_all_the_money_come.html
Mary -
My point is, you have a double standard. You own whine and complain when one party has stimulus checks that go out, yet you don’t seem to recall that this isn’t the first time in history that this has happened.
EGV,
You forget Obama has been running things for almost 4 years now. Its time for you to put big boy pants on him and start holding him accountable.
http://www.reflectionsofarationalrepublican.com/2012/10/06/bush-vs-obama-unemployment-september-2012-jobs-data/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57400369-503544/national-debt-has-increased-more-under-obama-than-under-bush/
I have no problem with poor people getting help, I have a problem with people demanding handouts. I have a problem with people assuming they don’t have pay their mortgage or gas. I have a problem with people lining up to get “free money”.
Mary -
Is your problem only with poor people and handouts?
Big oii?
Large corporations that don’t pay taxes because of loopholes?
How are you outraged over somebody making 25K a year and getting free handouts, but you’ve never mentioned (that I’ve seen) the handouts and impact the budget as well that benefit the rich?
No issue with that?
No EGV,
I was never happy about any stimulus money period and I wasn’t always happy with Bush, in fact for the most part I wasn’t at all. The catch is Obama has been president for 4 years so somewhere along the line the buck stops with him. I don’t care if its the first or tenth time its been done, its hasn’t worked and won’t.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/02/news/economy/fed-stimulus-john-taylor.moneymag/index.htm
“They can quickly repass the Bush extensions minus the extensions for the wealthy.”
How did I know that one thing was going equal your ten things….that was a reply pathetic answer. Come on now…give me at least two of the other nine will ya?
Mary – you are making a claim that stimulus is bad. Using the ‘Obama has been President for four years’ is utterly not the point in regards to stimulus. If you were making the claim that the economy is bad and that it has nothing to do with Bush, use the four years statement.
If you are saying though that free money is bad, to do so with only blame cast in one direction is biased and misleading.
And stimulus packages work.
Jerry, one thing that will actually keep the unemployment numbers down is that so many businesses are cutting back peoples hours to 30 maximum in order to avoid the Obamacare tax. They will now need hire four people to do what was the work of three people who worked fourty hours week. It will mean a huge increase in underemployment but the unemployment number will go down..
Truth -
They could also pass all the tax cuts. They could pass part of the tax cuts. They could go back to the bipartisan plan that was crafted and pass that.
What do you feel they should do?
EGV,
How doe you know all those people demanding handouts are poor. None of them looked like they were starving, or for that matter lacking in health care.
Big oil
http://timothyjhammons.com/2012/03/10/big-oil-does-not-receive-government-subsidies/
Large corporations, which provide employment, do have loopholes that are legal, however if you don’t like this write your congressman/woman concerning tax reform, which we could definitely use and I would have no objection to.
EGV, I object to people demanding handouts. I have a problem with people thinking they don’t have to pay their bills because Obama got elected. When the woman at the end of the video is rejoicing that she won’t have to pay her mortgage or put gas in her car, I assume she isn’t all that destitute since she has a home and a car, and has obviously had to pay for them up until Obama’s election. Now apparently she feels she has no obligation to do so. THAT is what I have an issue with.
Truth – the thing that is becoming so massively clear over the past 8 years of so is that health care tied to employment needs to be a thing of the past. Companies are supposed to turn profits – they dont’ do things for the common good – they don’t hurt their bottom lines for the betterment of employee’s lives.
Health care needs to do that.
The past week of people like the Papa Johns owner freaking out has made it more and more clear that Health Care Reform is a short term solution – universal care NOT tied to employment has to happen for the US to be competitive on a global scale, and for employees to have more flexibility to seek job training and move up in the world.
Massively and painfully obvious.
You’re using an small segment of poor people and acting like they represent everyone Mary.
So Mary – you take offense to people being uneducated? That’s your issue.
Dear heavens…moving on. What a waste of time.
People are going to be dumb from time to time. It happens.
Most economics professionals recognize that recovery from a major financial crisis, such as the one that took place in 2008, requires many years. In any case, it requires far more time than recovery from a normal cyclical recession.
On January 20, 2009, on the very evening Obama was inaugurated, we now know that the Republican leadership sat down at a secret meeting in which they pledged to do everything possible to obstruct Obama’s efforts to right the economy. Newt Gingrich attended that meeting and told the others involved in it that they were “sewing the seeds of the 2012 election.” How right he was.
Some 50-odd days from now, Obama will have it within his power to reduce the Republican Party to a steaming pile of dung.
I hope he exercises that opportunity.
EGV,
I didn’t say it had nothing to do with Bush. I stated I was not happy with Bush or his stimulus. I said its time for Obama to own it and for you to start holding him accountable. He’s been president for 4 years.
I know he’s whined like a schoolboy about what he inherited, like no president has ever inherited messes, but he’s inheriting his own mess now.
EGV, there is no such thing as free money. Just people who think they’re getting something for nothing and have no idea where its coming from.
Stimulus packages work? Good grief EGV, even when I do your research for you it still doesn’t register does it?
Under Obama’s leadership I don’t think there is a solution. The re-relection of Obama is a death knell. Preventing the tax increases and cutting government spending are the best option imo but won’t really help. We have been killing ourselves under Obama with temorary everything. Temporay tax cut extensions; temporary continuing resolution to fund government etc etc. That along with the regulation and the cronyism (government picking and choosing losers) spells disaster for the economy with or without another temporary tax-cut extension extension. Wether or not the tax-cuts for the “rich” are done or not is just a distraction and a red-herring at this point. Re-electing Obama put us over the fiscal cliff already.
Mary – you’re upset that people dont’ understand that they have to pay their mortgage.
Of all the odd things to get upset about.
I don’t know if you’ve ever looked at job losses graphs of 2008 into 2009. Obama came into a situation losing 700K+ jobs a month. Stimulus was passed, the economy has been healing, and we keep adding jobs. Yes, it would be nice if it went faster. No, I don’t expect it to with the public sector shedding jobs. This is opposite of what we saw in the Reagan recovery.
Truth -
Re-electing Obama didn’t put is over the fiscal cliff, and that’s a stupid statement to even make.
First off, how did we get here? It was the utter failure of political figures not working together to even put us into this mess. Blame falls on both sides for that.
If we want the economy to continue to heal the best, then leaving taxes alone and spending alone is the best solution.
If we want to attack the deficit, then targeted tax increases with cutting spending has to be done.
Jack, 6:11PM
How do you know they are all that poor Jack? The lady I referred to at the end or my 6:08PM can’t be all that destitute, she also looks very able bodied, healthy, and well fed.
Those thousands of people standing in line looking for ”Obama money”,you know for certain they were all so destitute? Again, they all looked well fed, ablebodied, and healthy, especially if they could stand in lines for so long and battle each other for applications.
EGV 6:12PM
This post is absurd. Big Joe is shouting in my ear.
Mary -
I can’t argue with somebody who gets mad that people don’t always understand economics. What’s there to say? Weird outrage.
On big oil – somebody should tell Fred Upton from Michigan (R – Energy and Commerce Chairman) that they don’t receive subsidies:
From early October:
UPTON: I’m for putting all of these on an even footing,” Upton said during a debate against Democratic challenger Mike O’Brien. “Let’s look at the oil and gas subsidies, let’s take them away. Let’s let them compete just like everyone else at the same level. We can do that with the tax code to take those special provisions away.
universal care NOT tied to employment has to happen for the US to be competitive on a global scale,
Ex-RINO, I didn’t realize it was that easy. Why should people have to work at all. The government can just keep giving us free stuff until we become the most competitive people in the world. And all along I thought was our hard work and ingenuity that mad us competitive. Silly me.
EGV,
Tell Upton to get in touch with Timmothy J Hammons. He might learn something.
Ex-RINO, the death tax is going to kick in next year. People spend their lives working to get ahead for themselves and their children and starting next year the government gets 55% of everything you own when you die. I know Obama is all for that. What is your opinion?
truth – people will need to work because they need housing, food, and other things. Health care is only one component of the puzzle.
You should read up on the auto industry and global competition – the amount in cars because of things like health care costs.
Then look at some info on the percentage of the GDP we spend on health care vs other nations.
The fight doesn’t need to happen – it has been won already and health care reform is here to stay (until the system crashes and we get fuller coverage – in my opinion at least). Just giving you some thoughts to research.
mp 6:12
Are you aware Harry Reid vowed not to work with Romney were he elected?
http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2012/11/02/gridlock-harry-reid-says-hell-refuse-to-work-with-mitt-romney/
I guess some things just never change.
Truth – At the most generous – I’d go with 2009 levels of the estate tax – $3.5 million and a top rate of 45%.
I’m more in favor, given the deficit, of somewhere along the 2005 levels – $1.5 million and a top rate of 47%.
Are you aware Harry Reid vowed not to work with Romney were he elected?
Gee, I can’t imagine why.
Nope. Sure can’t.
truth – people will need to work because they need housing, food, and other things.
Why? That doesn’t make any sense according to your theory. I couldn’t hold down a job without food and housing either? In fact food and housing are even more important. If we need government health care in order to be competitive then why not government food and housing too?
mp,
LOLLL
Exactly what I should expect from you.
Ex-RINO, You think the government deserves 47% of a dead man’s money just cause he died. I call that stealing and you a thief. IMO that man already paid taxes on that money and it is his to do as he pleases. Leave it to his family or friends or any other cause he wishes as a legacy to his life’s hard work. We are really just two different breeds all together you and me.
Mary, do you think that able-bodied, young and healthy people are never unemployed or underemployed? Do you know their education level and skill set? Would you rather them look underfed and unhealthy before they took assistance?
Truth -
If you want to read on the history and pros and cons of the estate tax, you certainly can – there’s a lot of historical arguments both for and against it.
According to the CBO, a full repeal would add $1.3 trillion to the deficit between 2012 and 2021.
I don’t think the deficit is in the place where repeal makes any sense. If the deficit is an issue, you have to keep the tax in place. It can be revisited again in the future if deficits have become a thing of the past.
Truth -
Insurance tied to employment is uniquely American, and not in a good way.
Good article to better understand it if you’d like:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/22/is-employer-based-health-insurance-worth-saving/
That link is broken Ex.
Jack 7:21PM
No. I’m just saying we can’t assume people are lining up for handouts because they are all that destitute. That lady at the end of the video does make you wonder, doesn’t she?
I don’t know Mary. I do know I better make sure I look starving and unhealthy if my boss cuts anymore hours and I need to get food stamps or something. I don’t want to end up on Glenn Beck as an example of a welfare leech!
“I don’t think the deficit is in the place where repeal makes any sense.”
Ex-RINO, But you are fine with stealing people’s money when they die in order to start new give-aways like Obamacare.
Truthseeker are you cool with uninsured people driving up yours, and everyone else who has insurance, premiums up?
What’s your solution, if you don’t believe in healthcare reform? What do you think is the answer to the state the healthcare industry is in? Remember that we spend more per capita on healthcare than any other country and our standard of care isn’t any better and is in fact worse than some other developed countries. I see you guys fighting with Ex all the time, saying universal healthcare is bad, and the ACA is bad, but I don’t see what you want to do instead of that.
truth – In one breath, how can you say that health care reform is a mandate individuals can’t afford because they are forced to pay for care – and then say it is a give-away?
Jack 8:08PM
For some reason I don’t see you as the kind of man who would shirk his responsiblities to pay his mortgage or other expenses because someone won an election, especially when you had been meeting those responsiblities up to that point.
Also, I don’t see you as the kind of man who would line up for “free Obama money” that Obama gets from his “stash” because you heard a rumor it was being handed out.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Jack, you probably are looking for detailed specific items that I would do and I will give you one really huge one for starters. But what I also want to give you is a guiding principle that should be used when coming up with reform. The goal of my reform would be to lower costs for everybody who needs it and make it more affordable and not to give it away.
The principle: Less government/bureaucratic involvement is better. Things are cheaper when you get government out of the way.
The detail: Remove the government regulations that are currently forcing citizens of the United States to pay twice as much or more for medicine than the exact same medicine costs in Canada or elsewhere.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/12/us/lawmakers-question-fbi-handling-of-petraeus-affair.html?hp&_r=0
“Senator Diane Feinsten also said that there was “absolutely not” a link between the resignation of Mr. Petraeus and the Sept. 11 attack on the United States mission in Benghazi, Libya. The C.I.A. has been criticized for providing a flawed early report about the attack.”
And by what prescient source did missy Diane arrive at this conclusion of absolute certainty?
A ‘Quiji board, consulting chicken entrails, reading tea leaves or listening to her lady parts?
Truth – I’m massively interested in this -
So you are saying that Canada and other nations have less government/beauracratic involvement when it comes to prescription drug prices, and that is why they pay half of what we pay?
Please confirm and explain.
No, doubt I would do that Mary.
What I don’t get is this. You are really offended that those people interviewed were lining up for checks and not understanding that there isn’t free money and Obama doesn’t have some stash, etc. Do you think that people need to have some required reading before they get welfare or a stimulus check or something? Make sure that they understand the economic system in this country or something before they can get a check? Lol, I just don’t get what you are saying.
Ex-RINO, I thought you were in the health care industry. You seriously don’t know that US citizens are restricted by our government and it is illegal to import drugs and that the exact same drugs are sold at higher prices in the US?
Why are the drugs cheaper in Canada truth? Is it their lack of government involvement? Lol.
Truth – that is not what I asked.
I’ll ask in a different way.
Why are drugs half the price they are in Canada than they are here?
Yes Jack. It is because our government will not allow us to import so drug companies charge more to the US citizens for the same drugs they sell at half price to rest of the world. I am amazed that you and especially Ex-RINO did not know this. This came up during health care debate and I was disgusted when our representatives decided not to address this. If other governments regulated their citizens this way then they could get charged more too.
We do know that, truth. Well at least I do, I assume Ex does. You aren’t answering the question. Why are the drugs cheaper in Canada? Is it because of their free market system of healthcare?
Jack 8:42PM
Insurance reform. Let’s have health insurance companies competing with each other like we see with Geico and Affleck on TV. Allow people cafeteria style selections that meet their specific needs, like I have at my place of employment. Tax deductions for all health care needs, from buying prescriptions, medical supplies, to doctor visits. Allow people to set up tax free health care accounts that can be passed on to spouses and/or children. At one time insurance was only for catastrophic needs like accidents or major surgery, you paid the rest. The more a third party be it insurance or the gov’t got involved, the more the expense increased.
If people want to foot most of their costs, give them a generous tax deduction.
My working class single mother paid for our health and dental care out of pocket. That was to be expected and people managed like they did their other expenses. My grandparents, I swear were always in the hospital, yet the expenses were met without medicaid.
We have numerous plastic surgeons where I live and it ain’t Beverly Hills, believe me. Yet people can sure come up with the cash to pay for a facelift or boobjob. But pay for their own prescriptions or birth control? Perish the thought.
Government involvement has only led to corruption, expense, waste, rising prices, etc.
Are you aware Jack that the Canadian gov’t contracts with American hospitals to provide their citizens care? If their gov’t run system is so marvelous, why do they need our help? And while that slob Michael Moore praises Cuba’s health care, while admitting he would go to Mayo if given a choice, he doesn’t mention that Castro imports Spanish doctors for HIS needs.
Then there is also something called personal responsiblity. Gasp. Imagine people being responsible for eating properly, giving up poor health habits, making their health a priority, and making prenatal visits. You’d be surprised the young women I see who couldn’t get to a doctor for a prenatal vist but can find the McDonald’s drive thru, the local drug dealer, the liquor store, and have more tattoos on them than the U.S. 7th Fleet. And there’s lover boy passed out on the couch of her hospital room, God forbid he take any responsiblity.
That may give you some ideas Jack as to how we can have reform without gov’t interference. Just look at the aftermath of Hurricane Sandy and ask yourself if these are the people you want managing your health care.
the obamateur received 9 million fewer votes in the 2012 election than he did in the 2008 even with a higher turn out of black and latino voters.
A win may be a win, but crossing the finish line first with 13 percent fewer cheering fans is not a mandate or even an enthusiastic greeting for an incumbent candidate.
Romney received 2 million less votes than McCain which a 3 percent reduction.
An estimated 3 million republicans did not go to the polls.
So much for the appeal of moderate, squishy candidates.
Jack. I explained it above. Drugs are cheaper in Canada because Canada and the rest of the world are allowed to import drugs from other countries without government interference. In the US our government does not allow us to import drugs so drug companies can get away with charging us more then they charge everybody else. That is the second time I have told you the same thing. If you don’t understand then maybe you should answer the question for yourself and me.
Fine truth -
In Canada, the government has price controls – they negotiate prices and put a max price (more regulation in Canada).
There’s two nations in the world (I’m aware of) that allow drug companies to advertise direct to consumers – us and New Zealand (so getting rid of that would be more regulation).
Would you like a listing of countries that regulate prices at drug launch? Or regulate profits?
The reason that other countries pay less is because they have MORE regulation. Our LESS regulated market is why we pay more.
If we imported drugs, we’d simply be saying other countries have better regulatory control than we do, thus cheaper prices. We could do the same things here if we had more regulation.
So Truth’s idea number one to fix health care is more regulation!
Awesome.
Jack – Don’t worry – I just answered it. On the flip side, Americans paying more allows for more money for R&D, which leads to more discoveries.
I think cutting out the marketing (companies spend more on marketing than R&D) would bring down prices while still allowing for R&D.
“My working class single mother paid for our health and dental care out of pocket. That was to be expected and people managed like they did their other expenses. My grandparents, I swear were always in the hospital, yet the expenses were met without medicaid.”
It’s different today. It just is. I broke my ankle when I was 19 and had to have surgery. One broken bone, a couple pins, one day in the hospital. It cost 15K. I only make 19K a year! I have been paying that bill for freaking years and I have only gotten it down to 11K. I don’t pay the monthly for like half the months of the years because it’s simply down to whether me and the kids have something to eat or not. Then two years ago I got pneumonia and was in the hospital for three days. Another 10K. I will never climb out of this. It’s just not working, to say that people just need to be more responsible. I am responsible! I always work! I don’t do anything for fun, ever, all my money goes to bills and food. I eat as healthy as I possibly can on the tiny food budget I have. But I am drowning. So are plenty of other people. This system we have, it’s just not livable.
Ex-GOP says: November 11, 2012 at 1:57 pm
“This isn’t 2008 – Bush is gone – the economy isn’t collapsing, it is growing.”
EX-RINO,
That is by far the most disingenuine or uninformed bit of bovine scatulation you have emitted.
I remember you telling us how many years to Reagan to turn things around. Just wait you said mr. bo-jangles, the eye candy man, will defy history, reason and the law of economics and heal the economy.
Only a fool would assert the economy is not collapsing into a second recession or continuing in the first one.
b o is not merely incompetent, he is malignant.
Why would anyone want to fundamentally change an economic and political system that has produced the highest standard of living and greatest quality of life and the most personal liberty in the recorded history of the planet?
Because b o is arrogant enough to believe his crack pipe dreams are superior to the collective wisdom of the men who wrote and ratified the constitution whose principles have guided us for more than two centuries.
Words mean things to me, but b o’s words are worthless because they are as empty as his suit.
You probably believe he will still respect you in the morning.
Jack 9:09PM
What a sad state of affairs in this country when people are this ignorant and dependent. Wouldn’t you agree?
Apparently they had survived for years prior, and would have gone on surviving had the rumor not gotten out. They understood only one thing, a “free” handout, and that was all they needed to understand. Pathetic, don’t you agree?
Oh and Jack, you indicated in your post your would be unlikely to do the same. Why is that?
Jack 9:31PM
You miss my point. Before there was all this gov’t and insurance, doctors and hospitals had to keep their prices competitive. Hospitals couldn’t charge thousands for an ER visit, surgery and several days stay. Years ago a woman might spend up to a week in the hospital after a normal delivery.
If hospitals and doctors were going to stay in business, and people paid out of pocket, prices had to be kept down. Third party payment put the kabosh to that.
Also people, and often brainless juries, look to insurance companies as bottomless pits of wealth. A baby isn’t born perfect. A lawsuit. You trip over your own feet. A lawsuit. Guess who the insurance companies pass the cost to? Bingo. Doctors pay astronomical insurance coverage and order unnecessary tests just to cover themselves.. Guess who its passed on to? Bingo.
Yes Jack you care for your health, but unfortunately too many people do not. People’s priorities are not always what we assume they should be and guess who pays? Bingo.
No Ex-RINO. I said just the opposite. Other governments may have gone the way of regulation to get cheaper drugs but that is not a healthy solution in the long run. That type of regulation kills innovation and progress. What I said is that our government should level the playing field by ending the regulation in the United States that prevent our citizens from being able to purchase products in a free market. The solution for the United States of America is less regulation and not more. Our government does not need to join other countries in regulating the cost of drugs and setting cost controls on products. Just the opposite. I don’t want to join Canada or anybody else in setting price controls. That is not free market and that is not the American way. We can remain a country with a free market system that works and our drug costs would go way way down if only the government would allow free trade and quit manipulating the marketplace by restricting our ability to purchase outside of the US.
es opines:
By the way, are you as upset about tax breaks to massive corporations – the handouts they get – or is it only poor people? I’ve only seen you upset at handouts to poor people. Why is that? :
Boy, is that ever a cheap shot. But that is what people resort to when they are losing the argument.
Let’s face it ex. Your hero is not up to the task on economics. You know more about economics than Obama does. In fact just about any CPA or MBA would be preferable running the economy than Obama.
Mary @ 9:17:
You have so much to offer on health care reform which you do regularly. Thanks. I think you may be the only health care professional on this thread.
So Jack,
That one thing would cut our citizens health costs way way down and it does not require government takeover.
I see someone else mentioned allowing free markets to work across state lines to purchase health insurance.
I also see somebody mentioned allowing people to select the health care options they want to purchase instead mandating what policies carry. The fact that our government can deny me from purchasing a policy that does not include maternity coverage or a lifetime cap is unAmerican and drives up the cost of health insurance.
The concepts of reform should be lowering costs so people can afford it and keeping government out of our health lives. Not picking and choosing peoples policies and giving it away for free under government control.
That’s awesome truth – you don’t believe in Canada’s system – you just want to advantage of what they do because they clearly have lower prices because of their regulation.
Am I missing something in your argument here?
Jerry -
How is that a cheap shot?
I see people running out of their way on this board to hammer on food stamps and policies for the poor (or those close to the poverty line).
Yes I see no outrage that we’ve just spent billions unchecked on an election – or that some huge companies don’t pay taxes because of loopholes.
Seriously? A cheap shot?
Hi Jerry,
Thank you, I appreciate that. My old age helps a lot too! A lot of what I talk about I personally remember. There are a few others, Jill, ProliferL, and Elisabeth, that I can think of.
I always think of the exchange we had as to how family and friends helped out and people didn’t turn to gov’t, nor did we expect gov’t help. I hadn’t thought about all that family upheavel in years, I guess it was just life and you coped.
Truth -
So how would you handle pre-existing coverage?
Very interested to see your response in light of your belief that health care should work like a cafeteria menu.
EGV,
Well the Canadians want the advantages our health system offers so it seems like a fair exchange to me.
Mary – we’ve been through this before. Less than 1% of all Canadians come to the US for any sort of health care, and it is for some specialized care. There are US citizens that go to other countries for some times of care – doesn’t mean that their entire health care system is better.
http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-08-09/commentary/33111026_1_canadian-system-single-payer-medical-system-medical-care
EGV,
I’m the one who mentioned the “careteria menu”,
We pick and choose exactly what coverage we need and want, no one size fits all.
Since its only my husband and me, we pick what suits us best. Other employees with children will choose differently. My daughter’s employer gives her coverage, and she has chosen catastrophic coverage,, paying the rest, she sees an alernative practitioner, out of pocket.
It works well and contains costs. Also, out of pocket you are more likley to doctor shop for the best price.
Mary
And what about pre-existing conditions?
“What a sad state of affairs in this country when people are this ignorant and dependent. Wouldn’t you agree?
Apparently they had survived for years prior, and would have gone on surviving had the rumor not gotten out. They understood only one thing, a “free” handout, and that was all they needed to understand. Pathetic, don’t you agree?”
Pathetic isn’t the word I use. Uneducated maybe. I don’t think that ignorance is something to scoff at and make fun of personally. I don’t even have a GED, the only reason I’m not completely ignorant about everything is because I’ve done security at one of the universities here for three years on and off, meaning I spend a ton of time when I’m bored reading books there. Some people are poorly educated, I don’t think that’s “pathetic”, I think we should work on it, not sit around and talk crap.
Yes you are missing something Ex-RINO. Right now the free market allows Canada to bargain for a better price. They can set whatever limits or price controls they want and the pharmaceutical companies can take it or leave it. But right now the US government is extorting it’s citizens to the benefit of their favorite businesses like the pharmaceutical companies by keeping us out of the free market where the rest of the world is competing. You are missing the concept of free markets and of keeping government out of our health lives.
EGV,
Less than 1% of Canadians come to the US. Let’s see the 2012 census of Canada was approximately 35,000,000. So just under 385,000 Canadians are coming to the U.S. every year for health care. Someone please correct me if my numbers are wrong.
Those border hospitals must be making a real killing!
Certainly under their wonderful gov’t run health care system there should be available whatever care Canadians need, right? Apparently they meet this need by contracting with our hospitals.
“You miss my point. Before there was all this gov’t and insurance, doctors and hospitals had to keep their prices competitive. Hospitals couldn’t charge thousands for an ER visit, surgery and several days stay. Years ago a woman might spend up to a week in the hospital after a normal delivery.
If hospitals and doctors were going to stay in business, and people paid out of pocket, prices had to be kept down. Third party payment put the kabosh to that.”
So, you think that if we just got rid of insurance companies all together that would fix the state we are in, or no? I’m not sure what you mean. And what time period are you talking about? We have a lot more technology and drugs that cost a lot than even 30 or 40 years ago, some prices that can’t be done away with by
I actually agree with you about everyone being sue-happy and it driving up costs. What do you think the solution to that is?
“Yes Jack you care for your health, but unfortunately too many people do not. People’s priorities are not always what we assume they should be and guess who pays? Bingo.”
Yes, some people are bad at taking care of themselves. But it’s not all that easy. The problem with lower-income obesity, for example, is a lot of times due to the quality of cheap food and time that people can spend preparing it. Unhealthy food is just cheaper, time and money wise You get a lot of single moms who have barely any time to cook between ending up feeding the kids mac n cheese and hot dogs for dinner, or spaghettios or whatever is super cheap and quick. I know after I got divorced and have full custody of the kids our eating habits just got unhealthier (even though I am a health nut and I hate, hate, hate the processed crap) simply because I don’t have the time or money to prepare a decent meal with fresh veggies and whole grains, etc every night. Lower income people have poorer health not just due to stupid choices.
“Certainly under their wonderful gov’t run health care system there should be available whatever care Canadians need, right? Apparently they meet this need by contracting with our hospitals.”
But people in the US just go without any care at all until it’s catastrophic a lot of times. How is that preferable to 1% of Canadians having to get care at border hospitals to keep waiting lists down.
Jack,
You’re assuming they’re uneducated. Maybe they’re not. Maybe some people don’t care about education because the taxpayer will take care of them. I see plenty of that.
Jack you mention you don’t have a GED, yet you acknowledge you would not be the type of man to shirk you financial responsibilities or stand in line for a handout. That is a testament to your character, not your level of education.
EGV 10:25PM
Insurance reform. More competition means less ability to pick and choose.
Jack, 10:42PM
Well since we’ve gotten into this mess we have to find a way out and gov’t intervention won’t solve anything. I have already pointed out what I see as good reform measures in my 8:42PM post.
I’m sorry to hear of your situation Jack but if low income people are morbidly obese, then obviously they are eating and junk food is an added expense and certainly not cheaper.
Where else on this planet do you see morbidly, or even mildly obese poor people?
Also, terrible health practices are not limited to the poor. I see morbidly obese health professionals, teachers, etc. We know someone with horrendous emphysema who keeps on smoking, legal as well as illegal. Heck, he’ll probably outlive me!
Truth -
Free markets aren’t allowing these price controls in Canada – Canada REGULATES the price of drugs. It has nothing to do with a free market. You want to take advantage of Canadian pricing, which is lower, because they have more regulation, which you don’t like.
Hi Jack,
Yes Canada has waiting lists. Is that what we want? My aunt’s Canadian born therapist used her medical connections to get her father into an American hospital after he was put on a waiting list for cancer treatment.
People go without care? Who’s fault is that? A doctor offered free prenatal care to a low income community near me. The women had only to show up. Not one did. You’d be surprised the folks I see that can afford tattoos and the local drug dealer, who I’m sure is cash up front, but pay for or make a doctor visit? Our community offers a free clinic and doctors see patients on a sliding scale. People who want care can get it. Sometimes people just don’t.
Because of red tape, paperwork, and little compensation, doctors don’t see medicare and medicaid patients. They have overhead and expenses too. Do you expect the grocery store to let you off the hook for what you owe? Why should the doctor? You would also be surprised Jack at the people who feel no obligation to pay the hospital or clinic, even though arrangement are made to enable them to pay. Somehow, people think they are owed.
Also, look at the violence in our cities, shootings, crimes, stabbings, then there’s the drunk driving which maims and kills how many? Hospitals have to eat a lot of these costs or only get minimal compensation. The cost is passed on to you and me.
Low-income obesity in the US is a different beast than malnutrition in developing countries. It’s not really important. My only point was that you are saying stuff like we are getting costs passed on from all these people who have no responsibility and I don’t think it’s as simple as all that.
http://frac.org/initiatives/hunger-and-obesity/why-are-low-income-and-food-insecure-people-vulnerable-to-obesity/
Mary -
Your math is wrong. If you click into the article and read the AARP article, you’ll see that .5% come to the US for elective care, and .11% (1/10 of 1%) come for emergency are. Really, you’d benefit from reading the article.
Canada’s system is not perfect – but understanding our strength and their strengths lead to a better comprehensive understanding of this all.
Mary -
I asked how you would treat pre-existing conditions in regards to cafeteria style health care plans.
Your answer wasn’t clear – please clarify.
EGV
I stand corrected.
Round off the population to 34,000,000 give or take.
So .5% of 34,000,000 who come for elective care would be 170,000
And .11% of 34,000,000 who come for emergency care would be 37,400 for a total of approximately207,400. Is that more like it? Like I said, those border hospitals must be making a killing.
Mary 11:09:
Your position is honestly that poor people have plenty of options, they are just too busy spending their money on everything else and expecting to get to get taken care of for free? Maybe some are, not most of us though. Some people really don’t even have that 20 dollar co-pay to spare on things that won’t help them feed their kids. And eventually, if you’re buried under more debt than the amount of money you make in two years. it becomes too much. Hopelessness isn’t really a good thing to foster with the system. You complain a lot about learned dependency, when I mostly know people who just gave up because they never have a chance to be debt free and are always a lay off or injury away from a catastrophe.
Ex-RINO,
You don’t seem to be getting it at all. We put caps on what we pay for drugs here in the US too. The government does it by setting reimbursement rates for medicaid patients and insurance companies bargain for their patients. I understand that. But the reason Canada is so much more successful at it is because they are able to negotiate in the free market so their starting cost is much lower. The single biggest and easiest thing we can do in the US to bring down the cost drugs is for our government to remove the regulations that prevent US citizens from purchasing drugs on the global market. It makes no sense not to unless you are getting lobbied by Big Pharma. That is my point. And doing that wouldn’t cripple research and development of drugs the mandatory government cost controls would cripple the best of our drug companies.
EGV 11:13PM
Insurance reform and competition would not allow for denial based on pre-existing conditions.
As for cafeteria style, my husband is diabetic. We prefer to pay more out of pocket and get a tax write off and pay less insurance. Thankfully my health is good so I can get by with less insurance and less dental coverage. Our hospital also offers health accounts. Some co workers have told me they have built up very substantial amounts which they keep only for emergencies. Some employees who’s children will need orthodontics go with the more expensive plan. I certainly don’t need maternity coverage, believe me that would be one for the books.
Many alternatives, EGV.
Jack,
Thank you for the article, very informative.
No I’m not suggesting poor people have all kinds of options or expect to be cared for free. Poor lifestyle choices and irresponsible behavior cross every economic line. I pointed out professional people I see who are morbidly obese and the guy I mentioned with the severe emphysema is low income, but he does get the needed medical care and medications, but as you might guess spends his money and time not so wisely.
Its interesting the article points out a sedentary life style for poor people, certainly a problem that crosses economic lines. And I can see where access to well stocked grocery stores may not be so easy.
My problem Jack is with the women I mentioned who would not take the responsibility for getting free prenatal care. My problem is with the friend who destroys his health with cigarettes, legal and illegal.
My problem is with someone covered in tattoos, and carrying an I phone crying they can’t afford to see a doctor. Well maybe if you spent less on tattoos and got a cheaper phone like I have you could! My problem is with parents who’s children’s teeth are rotting because they never brushed them and fed them excess surgar like cookies and now require “free” dental surgery. My problem is with people who feel no obligation to at least try and pay their medical bills.
Those are my issues Jack, and they cross every economic line.
Mary
You said the border hospitals must be making a killing…from the same article…which you obviously haven’t read:
“The authors of the study started by surveying 136 ambulatory care facilities near the U.S.-Canada border in Michigan, New York and Washington. It makes sense that Canadians crossing the border for care would favor places close by, right? It turns out, however, that about 80 percent of such facilities saw, on average, fewer than one Canadian per month; about 40 percent had seen none in the preceding year.
Then, the researchers looked at how many Canadians were discharged over a five-year period from acute-care hospitals in the same three states. They found that more than 80 percent of these hospital visits were for emergency or urgent care (that is, tourists who had to go to the emergency room). Only about 20 percent of the visits were for elective procedures or care.”
truth –
When you say “negotiate on the free market”, you mean that the government is negotiating and setting prices. The “free market” part doesn’t have much legs. The government controls the price. That’s why it is cheaper. The US lets free market principles take more control, and big pharma has too much influence, and too much marketing bucks built into the price. That’s why we pay more.
Mary – I still don’t understand if you think insurance companies would WILLINGLY have plans with no pre-existing coverage limitations, or if you would MANDATE it:
“Insurance reform and competition would not allow for denial based on pre-existing conditions.”
The rest of what you wrote doesn’t matter until this is clear.
EGV 7:37am
http://www.freep.com/article/20090820/BUSINESS06/908200420/Canadians-visit-U-S-get-health-care
Even though the article describes this arrangement as lucrative for Detroit area hospitals, bariatric surgery and follow up care can run into the thousands, it begs the question as to why it is even necessary. Can’t Canada provide for its citizens’ needs?
Egv,
I didn’t say they would WILLINGLY do so. Reform through laws requiring them to do so as well as competition, which limits your ability to pick and choose, would leave them no alternative.
Its like laws that say a business owner cannot discriminate on the basis of race, religion, or ethnicity. That doesn’t change the mentality of the racist business owner, but it does force him/her, under penalty of law, and the option of customers going elsewhere, to keep his/her attitude in check.
views of Mark Steyn, one Canadian (and I myself am a Canadian, too)
http://www.steynonline.com/4783/our-sick-state (speaking to Americans of the US in which he lives)
A couple of months back, I was with a friend of mine when she suddenly collapsed and I found myself having to run her to the emergency room. After a fairly harrowing 14 hours, the hospital released her, the doctor writing her a prescription for the still-very-intense pain she was in. So we stopped at her local Kinney Drugs in Vermont.
Despite having been called in by the doc, the prescription wasn’t ready. Come back in an hour. Heigh-ho. So we left it an hour and a half, and then, not wishing to make another pointless trip, called the pharmacy just to make sure. No, sorry, the druggist said. They ran the insurance number and it was denied. So they canceled the prescription. Without calling the patient to tell her they’d canceled it. I passed the phone to my friend, lying on the couch like a tubercular Victorian heroine, and she explained that her employer had recently switched plans from Blue Cross/Blue Shield to Cigna and, midst groans, gave them the new policy number. She waited another hour in pain and we then returned to Kinney Drugs, using the convenient drive-thru lane.
This time, they had the drugs. My pal handed over her new insurance card. After some 15 minutes, the clerk returned and said the insurer had declined it. There were two cars backed up behind us. My friend said that couldn’t be right, the number was valid, could they please run the number again. They did. Same result. There were now four cars behind us. The clerk suggested we drive around the building, join the back of the drive-thru line, and maybe when she’d taken care of the four cars behind things would have quietened down sufficiently for her to call someone and try to find out what the problem was.
Never mind my friend’s crippling pain, spare a thought for me: I’d had to spend untold hours being kindly and supportive and sympathetic, which is not a role to which I’m naturally suited, and the strain was beginning to tell. In that useful Americanism, I didn’t need this in my life right now. So I enquired of Kinney Drugs whether it would be possible for us just to pay for the prescription — you know, with money — and then bugger off to resume our lives. She went off to see whether that was still possible. Upon her return, I grabbed my wallet and pulled out a credit card.
“That will be eighteen dollars and 79 cents,” she said.
Oh. For whatever reason — perhaps the sheer dogged determination required to negotiate this time-consuming transaction to a successful conclusion — I had assumed this would be one of those expensive pills about which one hears so much and I’d be ponying up 500 bucks. Instead, I put away the credit card and fished out a $20 bill.
And then I thought of the opportunity cost not only to me but to the four cars behind. It seemed a very expensive way to buy 18 bucks’ worth of pills.
It turned out my friend’s prescription was denied because someone at the pharmacy had transposed two numbers. Oh, well. Could happen to anyone. And, in fact, it does. Speaking as an unassimilated foreigner, I notice when you’re standing in line that the big difference between a trip to the pharmacy in the U.S. and one in the rest of the developed world is that in America the druggists spend virtually their entire time talking about not the medicine but the “customer”‘s degree of access to it. For example, while guest-hosting for Fox News just after Christmas, I was taken ill while in New York. Saw a doc, got a prescription, this time went to a Duane Reade pharmacy on Sixth Avenue. The lady ahead of me was going away for New Year’s. Too bad. Her health-care provider declined to provide her with a renewal of her prescriptions before the 31st. The stylishly accoutered lady ahead of her had a better strike rate. After some delay, the pharmacist returned. She informed her (and the rest of us) that the good news was that her insurer had approved her Ortho, but the bad news was that they’d denied her Valtrex. Ortho is a birth-control pill. Valtrex is a herpes medication. Had her dinner date been a couple of places behind me in line, the news might have cast a bit of a damper on his evening. As it was, it occasioned general amusement among the women present.
I don’t quite know what you’d call these rituals, but the term “private health-care system” doesn’t seem the most obvious fit. Indeed, as in so many other areas of American life — the Fannie-Freddied mortgage market, the six-figure college education — the main purpose of these dysfunctional labyrinths ever more disconnected from any genuinely free market seems to be to discredit the very concept of a “private” system and thus soften up the electorate for statist fixes. I’ve argued for years in these pages that governmentalized health care fundamentally transforms the relationship between citizen and state in ways that make it all but impossible to have genuinely conservative government ever again. But at least the Canadian and British systems have the saving grace of an equality of awfulness. Both Obamacare and, alas, Romneycare seem designed to combine the worst aspects of the Scottish NHS and America’s present third-party pseudo-market — and thus a scale of bloated, bureaucratic, inflationary capriciousness unknown to human history.
In free, functioning societies, it ought to be easy to buy a bottle of pills. The fact that it isn’t is one reason why America has a real bad headache.
Ex-RINO,
Do you think our congress should leave regulations in place that prevent US citizens from purchasing drugs on the global market?
ex:
It was a cheap shot because you claim I do not care about the disadvatanged even though you offered nothing to support your claim, which of course was totally meritless. And to remind you…this is a site dedicated to the pro-life cause. If you want to talk about the disadvantaged (or would be disadvantaged if they were permitted to continue their lives) I can hardly think of a class of people more disadvantaged than the unborn who are being denied the most precious right of all. So lets keep things in perspective. Many of us do a great amount of work helping the disadvantaged…both before AND after they are born.
You are not comparing apples to apples when you refuse to see the rampant abuse of so many government programs. You have never seen myself or Mary, Jill, Truth, Ken or anyone else here suggest the end of safety net programs so your claim is preposterous.
Thanks to your hero Obama’s pathetic mismanagement of our economy, his incentive programs rewarding people to sign people up, and his advertisements in Mexico designed to encourage anyone with a pulse to sign up for food stamps….guess what…we now have record growth in the food stamp program. Thanks to Obama what was once a safety net program is fast becoming an entitlement that ultimately takes money from you and others who work for a living. Gee–maybe your kids could benefit if you were not paying for scams. A person has to be either blind or willfully ignorant to not see where this is headed.
Look around my friend. Put your ear to the ground. You may be suprised by what you find. In my neck of the woods the scam artists are lining up at food pantries for the goods and then they barter their food stamps on the street for things not allowed under the program. In California there are reports of people using their funds in the gambling establishments. I personally know of people who are on disability but run cash only businesses under the radar of the the feds. I know of illegal residents knocking down 70-100 thousand a year in jobs that U.S. citizens WOULD like to have. I see people nearly everyday that I contract with who are beneficiaries of government largess who have themselves hardly contributed anything to the programs they benefit from, but they know the ropes because their friends and neighbors also know the ropes. I see our unemployment compensation system abused time and again by people whom I know are undocumented residents as they work seasonal jobs for someone I know who feels he cannot compete unless he too hires illegal residents. When winter comes they go and use their fake ID’s and SS numbers to apply for comp benefits. Don’t tell me I live in the only place in the United States where these things are happening.
There is so much happening under the radar scene that is kept hush hush lest the whole thing blow wide open. I almost had to laugh when I heard a radio talk show host express surprise to learn about Obamaphones….just the tip of the iceberg, been going on for years, and probably the cheapest of the scams that are happening. A good example nonetheless of what is happening in the subterranean economy. Unfortunately Obama’s policies are a green light to more abuse that far exceeds safety net parameters.
Obamaphones?
You know, the phone-service subsidy started under Reagan and expanded to free or low-cost cell phones under Bush. Obamaphones.
Lol Alexandra I was just reading that after Jerry mentioned it. The program that has nothing to do with Obama? It’s Obama’s fault! Haha.
This is ridiculous. If you guys hate Obama then fine but stop making up crap.
I think the following article well explains “Obamaphones”. Apparently people like this charming lady think there are “Obamaphones” like they think there is “free Obama money” or an Obama “stash” that he can hand out. However the facts are the following:
This program originated in 1996, which would be President Bill Clinton, not Reagan, when cell phones were virtually non existent, and before Bush the Younger.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2012/09/28/crazy-for-obama-phones-but-are-they-for-real/
Sweet, I should get one of them. Since my phone got shut off I can’t pick up extra shifts at work barely ever since they can’t call me.
Mary, Lifeline was started in 1984 under Reagan, Alexandra was right. It was expanded under Clinton, and under the Bush administration it was expanded to include cell phones.
Jack,
Does the article say Lifeline was started in 1984 and I missed it? Even searching Google I can only find a reference to 1996. Do you have a source? Thanks
Sorry, I included a link before but I think I accidentally deleted it. I was wrong I guess it’s 1985 instead of 1984.
http://www.fcc.gov/lifeline
Thanks Jack,
I see this had to do with providing a low cost service to people in their homes and not dispensing cell phones, which as I said, were virtually non existent in 1985. How did we manage! In 2005 this program was extended by Bush. In between was Clinton. Thank you for the source.
Good grief I hope no one ever tells that screaming banshee the origin of her “Obamaphone”, she’d have a stroke.
You have to admit though, it is troubling to see Americans citizens, however mistaken, view a president as having free phones and “free Obama money” from his “stash” to rain down on them like manna from heaven, or actually believe they no longer need to meet their financial obligations, and admit this is why they voted for a president.
Changing subject back to Benghazi. It is freaking amazing how many people are resigning and being relieved of command over this. One really big one who I hope doesn’t get forgotten is General Ham. I hope to God that congress calls him to testify.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/robbins-report/2012/oct/28/general-losing-his-job-over-benghazi/
Mary -
So let me be clear – you’d outlaw pre-existing conditions discrimination, but wouldn’t mandate coverage – is that correct?
I just want to clarify before I call the attack dogs out on that one. :-)
truth –
I don’t know enough about the concerns regarding safety – I’ve seen some studies that said a lot of online drug purchases that people think are coming from Canada are from third world countries. But with that being said…if we can ensure safety, I’d think that Americans should be able to take advantage of the fruits of the labor of the higher regulation that Canada has if they’ll allow us.
I mean, the simple solution is to do what other nations do and regulate the market more, but since we don’t, and pay higher prices for it – maybe we can take a backroads approach to savings.
I wonder how much big pharma gives to politicians to ensure their sweet deals. Yikes.
See Jerry – there you go again – what was that – several hundreds words regarding how the poor in America are scamming you out of money.
Yet I’ve never seen you upset about GE not paying taxes. I’ve never seen you upset on money spent in politics – the loopholes, the subsidies – the big money wheel.
But sure, find the abuses from the poor – go after them, and then tell me I’m taking a cheap shot at you when you post, quite possibly the longest post I’ve see you post, while again ignoring the bigger scam artists in the country.
Ex, you’ve been on this blog long enough to realize the scamming on the upper levels is by “job creators”, so it’s okay. Get with the program!
EGV,
That’s as ridiculous as asking if I would support anti discrimination laws, but still allow employers to refuse service or hiring on the basis of race, religion, and ethnicity.
Outlawing discrimination on pre-existing conditions would mean that companies could not use this as a basis for denial of coverage. They would have to give equal consideration to all applicants. Also, with more competition and a smaller customer base to choose from, insurance companies would not be in a position to pick and choose.
An analogy. I’ve read accounts how in the Democrat instituted segregation of the old south, the more rural areas, which had limited population and a large black population, had to throw segregation to the wind if they were going to survive financially. Business owners may not have been that enthralled with black people, but their money was green and it kept them in business.
Sometimes EGV, a business, whatever it is, cannot pick and choose its customer base and survive. The reforms I suggest would put insurance companies in such a position. Competition and limited customer base can be a great incentive to keep prices competitive, and like the rural southern businesses I mentioned, provide service even to people they otherwise would not if given a choice.
Now take those attack dogs outside before they leave a pile on your carpet. :-)
EGV,
Interesting that you would mention GE not paying taxes.
http://www.canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/50145
Ex-GOP,
I have seen and heard in conservative circles at least as much complaining about corporate welfare as of cases like the “Obamaphone lady”. The GE favoritism is the prime example.
Today Obama welcomed his union buddies, many exempted from Obamacare. Would it have killed him to first invite business and economic leaders? I guess so. He’s content to tread water the next four years. Which would be fine if we weren’t headed for a waterfall.
There was a candidate who stressed the closing of loopholes and tax reform. But since he didn’t come down from a mountain with his plans etched in stone, you preferred the One who would feebly “stick it to the Man”, accomplishing nothing but keeping the deficit sky-high.
See Jerry – there you go again – what was that – several hundreds words regarding how the poor in America are scamming you out of money. Yet I’ve never seen you upset about GE not paying taxes.
Ex-RINO is blowing wind out his ass at Jerry about GE being a tax cheat and Jack is kissing Ex-RINO’s ass while he does it. LOLLLL Jack, you really need to quit riding with Ex-RINO and think for yourself on this stuff. LOLLLLL The CEO of GE has been Obama’s top economic advisor for the past few years. Last year they were the sixth largest firm in the US in gross revenue and they paid zero dollars in taxes and moved their businesses from the US to China. You couldn’t make this stuff up. But somehow Ex-RINO; an Obama worshipper, has the audacity to bitch at Jerry about GE being a tax cheat. This from wikipedia about GE and its ties to Obama’s economic agenda”
In February 2009, Immelt was appointed as a member to the Presidents Economic Advisory Board to provide the president and his administration with advice and counsel in fixing America’s economic downturn.When President Obama chose to put Jeffrey Immelt at the head of the Economic Advisory Board, he felt that Immelt had attributions in knowing what would help the global economy. Obama has reported that Immelt has emerged as one of his top economic advisors in regards to trying to rebuild America’s economy.
On January 21, 2011, President Obama announced Immelt’s appointment as chairman of his outside panel of economic advisers, succeeding former Federal Reservechairman Paul Volcker. The New York Times reported that Obama’s appointment of Immelt was “another strong signal that he intends to make the White House more business-friendly.” Immelt will retain his post at G.E. while becoming “chairman of the Council on Jobs and Competitiveness, a newly named panel that President Obama is creating by executive order.” Despite this, in July 2011 Immelt’s General Electric announced that it is in the process of relocating its X-ray division from Wisconsin to China. Immelt had previously referred to China as GE’s “second home market”.
Obama supporters are brain dead and incapable of blaming Obama for anything. You couldn’t make this stuff up.
Lol truth. If it’s kissing ass to agree with someone when they make a point I guess I am guilty. I think Ex is right about Jerry and Co complaining, constantly about poor people cheating welfare while conveniently ignoring much more expensive abuses going on. He also makes some good points about Obamacare. I can also see some merit in your’s and Mary’s ideas. Is it kissing ass to tell you that I agree with a few of your points or is it okay because it’s agreeing with you? :)
Jack, do you not see the irony in Ex-RINO, an Obama disciple; going after a Romney backer like Jerry about GE being a tax cheat? But Obama made the CEO of GE his top economic advisor and during that time GE paid zero dollars in taxes even though they raised the sixth highest gross revenues of any US company. Or during the debates Obama made a bogus claim over and over that Romney’s tax plan would encourage companies to ship job’s oversees but the whole while Jeffery Immelt, the CEO of GE, was appointed head of the Presidents Economic Council and he was moving his business from the US to China.
“Obama disciple”… ok.
I don’t think people have to agree with everything a politician who they voted for does. I think you should ask Ex himself if you want to know what he thinks about all that GE stuff.
If Romney had run would you think it hypocritical for me to complain about some of his policies/things he let happen/whatever just because I voted for him?
Ex, you’ve been on this blog long enough to realize the scamming on the upper levels is by “job creators”, so it’s okay. Get with the program!
It is Jerry and other like minded people of fiscal sanity that want to go after the loopholes that allow Obama cronies like GE to scam the system. That is a much better solution then raising the tax rates on small businesses like Obama wants to do.
Hahaha, if Jerry really wants to do that then it doesn’t show. He just posted a huge screed about welfare and social program fraud. Nary a word about closing loopholes or hitting the big business for their corporate welfare crap.
Jack, this isn;t just a passing policy we are talking about. This is Obama’s top economic advisor and head of his jobs council that is cheating the system blind and paying zero dollars in taxes and shipping jobs oversees. If Romney did that and then accused other people of wanting to do that then YES, it would be right to call him out on such audacious hypocrisy.
Jack, it is possible to want to shrink the size of the welfare state and go after corporate loopholes. The two are actually quite compatible to a fiscally responsible person. It is wrong for you and Ex-RINO to accuse Jerry of NOT wanting to go after corporate loopholes just because he wants to stop welfare fraud. Do you have any evidence or posts to back up your accusation?
First, do you have links about this GE stuff that I can read?
Second, yes I agree with you. If your assertions about Obama’s role in this are correct then it’s hypocritical for an Obama supporter to complain about a GOP supporter not caring about corporate welfare and tax loopholes without calling Obama out for being cool with the same thing.
Third, I have read many, many of Jerry’s posts and I have seen him complain about social program abuses many times, and corporate abuses never. Maybe I just missed it, but it seems as though welfare fraud is his real beef, he doesn’t seem to care much about the billions lost because of scheming big businesses. In fact, when called on this, he complained more about social program fraud!
GE made a profit of 26 billion in the last five years and got a tax BENEFIT of 4 billion dollars?
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/business/economy/25tax.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
You are right about Imelt being one of Obama’s economic advisers, too, truth. Did you copy your first post from Wikipedia btw? It’s exactly like his article lol. This honestly looks to me like letting the fox guard the henhouse. Pretty disgusting.
But anyway, no, I rarely hear conservatives complain about anything like this. I do hear them complain about TANF and SNAP and Medicaid. They complain about people like this.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/08/us/welfare-limits-left-poor-adrift-as-recession-hit.html?pagewanted=all
Which seems to me like a case of mismatched priorities on everyone’s part.
This might be interesting to some people.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3677
Mary -
So you’d outlaw discrimination on pre-existing conditions.
Could you imagine running a car insurance company that let people call in and get coverage after they got an accident, and still be covered for the accident they just had? How do you think that company’s rates would be?
Hans -
If loopholes aren’t named, they aren’t stressed. If a candidate can’t lay out a plan that is detailed enough to be looked at, then we can’t rally around that person and say “they would have closed loopholes”. We have no idea.
truth -
You’re being an idiot again. I went after Jerry, and now after you, because there’s hundreds of “cheats” in this country – thousands of “cheats” in this country.
On this board, I see time and time again the gnashing of teeth and crying around people on welfare or medicare or medicaid or a number of things, and how they are taking other people’s money and how THEY are the problem. I’ve seen how the world is crashing because Obama was reelected and how gay people can get married in a few more states.
But where is the outrage EVER in regards to the big money in the country and those cheats? How can people get upset to the point of doing drug tests for people on welfare in Florida, yet not care that we have a tax code so screwed up that corporations like GE don’t pay taxes.
I’m not sticking for Obama – and I think he stinks that Obama also hasn’t pursued campaign finance reform, or closed these various loopholes. I think the big money influences towards Obama are a huge part of the problem. Take the money out of the equation, and then we’ll get a real debate on Planned Parenthood, abortion, and a lot of other subjects. Now, every politician is indebted to who gives them money. It’s a shame.
My point is NOT that Obama did something good or bad – he does plenty of bad things.
My point is, you folks only get mad at poor people. I think that’s sad.
Who on this board is waffling about protecting BIG PHARMA by preventing US citizens from being able to purchase drugs on the global, market? It tokk about eight posts about it before you would even say you would consider it. And you have the audacity to call out Jerry on GE when Immelt is head of Obama’s Economic Jobs Council and a close financial advisor to Obama? You are a bad joke…..
GE employs THOUSANDS of people so that they don’t have to be “poor people”. I guess that’s the main difference. As a poor person, though, I find your outrage laughable. I’m perfectly willing to cut any corporation a break as long as they’ll give me a job so that hopefully, one day (soon), *I* may pay taxes.
EGV,
It seems we keep going in circles on this and no matter how many times I tell you, and as straightforward as I try to make it, something just doesn’t register. I think my 10:50PM post sums it up well so I would suggest you read it a few more times and you should be able to pick up what you’ve apparently missed.
Mary – we keep going around in circles because you don’t understand some of the simple concepts of economics.
The individual mandate and pre-existing conditions go hand in hand. If you aren’t willing to do a mandate, you can’t do pre-existing conditions.
Pretend that insurance companies can’t discriminate at all based on pre-existing conditions. The smart thing for a consumer to do is to not have insurance, and IF something big happens, then buy insurance.
So if the only people on an insurance plan are people with major issues, what happens to the price of that plan? It is sky high.
The reason for the mandate is it increases the amount of people on a plan and spreads out the cost. It is very much in line with a general conservative principle that calls for allowing small businesses to pool together for larger plans. If you have 10 people, and one person gets a $250K cancer bill, the plan can’t take it. If you have 10,000 people and somebody gets a $250K cancer bill, the economics are there to better handle it.
One doesn’t work without the other.
truth – you never asked until about 8 posts in.
I’m just saying, it’s a silly second place. Pretend you own a furniture company, and it takes you $20 to make a chair. Down the street, the competition makes the same chair for $10.
You have two options:
– Do a better job on cost control and get your chair prices competitive
– Buy the chairs from your competition
I’m in favor of one. You are in favor of two.
If Canada’s drugs are cheaper, maybe there’s a reason. I pointed out a few earlier – look at the amount of money spent on advertising on drugs, and price controls.
xalisae -
Okay – let me ask you a question then.
Should we eliminate the child tax credit, food stamp programs, and the earned income credit and take that revenue and use it to cut corporate taxes? Would you be in favor of that?
EGV 10:50PM
Please continue reading my 10:50PM post as I advised you to do. You may catch on.
As I said I am tired of repeating the same thing time and again and again. If it just doesn’t register, so be it.
Mary -
I’ve read it – it just doesn’t make ANY economic sense what-so-ever. Go read the heritage foundation when they pitched the idea of the individual mandate. Read some economic information – projections and such.
If you are going to throw out the individual mandate, you are throwing back in the world of denying people based on pre-existing conditions.
I can reread your 10:50 post one-hundred times – it won’t make it work economically.
Ex-RINO,
From this thread you have stated that you are for stealing dead peoples money to lower your health care burden and you are against removing regulations on American citizens that would cut their prescription drug costs in half. You are not even respectable.
Should we eliminate the child tax credit, food stamp programs, and the earned income credit and take that revenue and use it to cut corporate taxes? Would you be in favor of that?
Child tax credit? Yes. I didn’t earn that money. I shouldn’t have it. I like it, but I don’t like having it more than I love my country. Food stamps? No, but the program should be altered. It should be expanded to be coupled with childcare programs, and those childcare programs should work towards getting parents back into school to continue their education or if they already have certain qualifications, getting them employed if possible. The program should be geared towards being phased out. Should it be used to cut corporate taxes? Maybe if that company could show that money being used to cover new hires.
“But with that being said…if we can ensure safety, I’d think that Americans should be able to take advantage of the fruits of the labor of the higher regulation that Canada has if they’ll allow us.” Ex-GOP Voter
“…you are against removing regulations on American citizens that would cut their prescription drug costs in half.” truthmakerupper
xalisae -
Santorum supported tripling the child tax credit – promotes people to have kids. I thought it was the most pro-life suggestion I’ve heard from a politician in a while.
So you disagree with Santorum? You think he’s unfairly taking from corporate America to promote birth rates?
Yeah. I do disagree with Santorum. I disagree with him often, though. I disagree with him about “gay marriage”, and birth control, to name a couple issues off the top of my head. So?
EGV 8:20PM
I have discussed with you time and again about insurance reform, generous tax write offs, and health care accounts. I have posted about generating competition among various insurance companies. I have pointed out the corrupt boondoggle Medicare has become. It doesn’t click with you EGV. For whatever reason it just doesn’t and I’m tired of repeating the same thing time and again.
If you want to dwell in your fantasy world that Obamacare will be some panacea, be my guest. I’m telling you right now it will be yet another gov’t run disaster.
“if we can ensure safety, I’d think that Americans should be able to take advantage of the fruits of the labor of the higher regulation that Canada has if they’ll allow us.”
Ex-RINO, Your posts are complete spin. Canada has encouraged US citizens to purchase drugs from them but you add meaningless drivel like ‘if they’ll allow us’. And your statement above does not say they should repeal the regulation. It conditions it on safety which is the reason the lobbyists use to prevent deregulation and lobby endlessly to keep the regulations in place. You are incapable of giving a straight answer to anything but leave yourself wiggle room to play both sides when you are backed in a corner and made to look the fool. Spineless really.
Ex-GOP,
I know you, the “Huffing and Puffing-ton Post” and the rest of the left didn’t like it, but I think Romney / Ryan was pretty straightforward in saying the details of closing tax loopholes would have to be negotiated with both Houses of Congress.
Imagine the two branches working together, instead of steamrolling your way like Obama did with the ACA and the Stimulus. And imagine not even being embarrassed that his own friendly Senate couldn’t muster a vote for his pathetic budget proposals.
Where pray tell were Obama’s details on job creation? Other than throwing money out the window and expecting it to be spent wisely by his buddies?
If only we could have put up a candidate with experience in economic success. Oh yeah. Never mind.
http://blogs.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/archive/2012/09/16/paul-ryan-exclusive-explains-why-romney-campaign-wont-reveal-tax.aspx
xalisae – I just find it interesting – a lot of folks said it was very pro-life as it would make a big difference in the lives of future parents. I think this is one more area where, short of laws banning abortions, pro-lifers often are on the wrong side (or don’t support) of legislation that impacts abortion rates.
Mary – Most of our insurance discussions end up with you looking fondly back on the 1950s and how we used to do it, thinking that might apply to today’s time.
If you can find some supporting, non-partisan thoughts from a health care expert, I’m all ears.
truth -
A little up in arms tonight? Are you not concerned about the safety of the American people? You can 100% guarantee that all is good? I said I was all for it if safety could be ensured. Higher regulation in Canada has yielded cheaper products. In the US, we fund the cheaper products for the rest of the world because we pay for companies R&D through higher prices because of less regulation. If we can take advantage of systems that are massively better than ours, sure, let’s do it.
Hans – I actually would have believed Romney if he wouldn’t have set specific tax cut amounts. He was reaping all of the benefit without actually making hard decisions.
If he truly wanted to negotiate, he should negotiate it all. Otherwise, he’s backing people into a corner – “you HAVE to match these cuts whether you like it or not – I promised…”
It was a cute tactic – I just don’t think it was honest. I mean, if I ran for President and said I was going to cut taxes 10% for everyone, plus balance the budget next year – and you have to trust me – but I won’t tell you how, because I want to negotiate how – it just is too hollow. It’s almost like saying that I’ve built an easy out when it doesn’t get done.
If you believed him, that was great. I simply didn’t – and I don’t think it won him many votes on election day.
Ex-RINO, then you now agree it was a massive failure when Obamacare did nothing to remove those regulation on importing drugs. It would have actually saved Americans huge amounts of health care dollars and all would have taken is to get government out of the way. I don’t think you are credible though and you are certainly not reliable the way you hem and haw and spin and squirm and waffle in your posts. Somehow I think if the vote came up you wouldn’t support deregulation and you would continue the status quo while pitching for even more regulation.
What about stealing money from dead people to lower your health care burden. Have you had a change of heart on that yet?
If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. If you teach a man how to fish, you feed him for his lifetime.
I’m highly familiar with crushing poverty. All the child “tax credit” does is put a band-aid on a bad situation. As an impoverished person, I’d much rather someone help me change my overall status and give me a door to step out of poverty (a job) instead of just temporarily cover it up by throwing money at me. But I guess that’s the difference between you and I, Ex-RINO. I’d actually like these problems to be SOLVED for myself and others like me, you just want to throw as much money as possible at us to make yourself feel like you’ve done something good. Keep it. Help us help ourselves.
No EGV,
Most of our discussions end up with me giving you straight facts and solutions, time and again, that for some reason fail to register with you. If I mention the 50s and 60s, its to make the point that gov’t interference was not needed and insurance and gov’t 3rd party payment only leads to increased cost, corruption and billions wasted.
I don’t know how many more ways or times I can say this so I can only come to the conclusion my efforts are futile. When some people make up their minds, they don’t want to be confused with with information.
P.S. I still think it’s funny that you felt the need to point out that I disagree with Santorum, as if that counts for anything, since I’ve always been open and honest about how vehemently I disagree with Santorum about a lot of things. Another thing I just thought of: immigration.
Ex-GOP,
So let me get this straight. You bought into a candidate who was the least qualified and experienced of the four major candidates promising to cut the deficit in half and lower the unemployment rate down to just above 5%. With an entirely compliant Congress he instead managed to go in the opposite direction. And you and others rewarded his failure.
Along comes a candidate with successful executive experience in both business and government. And the latter with an overwhelmingly opposition legislature. But his promise was a grounded-in-reality fiscal sanity of cutting taxes if coupled with tax reform.
Nah, let’ stick with our precarious mediocrity. What could go wrong?
Truth:
Thanks for your thoughtful and insightful analysis. What we have to remember when dialoging with some people is that they are always looking for something to distort.
Ex opines:
Yet I’ve never seen you upset about GE not paying taxes. I’ve never seen you upset on money spent in politics – the loopholes, the subsidies – the big money wheel.
Jack opines:
Third, I have read many, many of Jerry’s posts and I have seen him complain about social program abuses many times, and corporate abuses never. Maybe I just missed it, but it seems as though welfare fraud is his real beef, he doesn’t seem to care much about the billions lost because of scheming big businesses. In fact, when called on this, he complained more about social program fraud!
I think Ex is right about Jerry and Co complaining, constantly about poor people cheating welfare while conveniently ignoring much more expensive abuses going on. He also makes some good points about Obamacare
This is amusing. Constantly? Not so, but I suppose if ex says it and you are willing to accept it as fact…fine. Whatever.
I have never articulated an opinion about thousands of other topics, so you both take that to mean I have either no opinion or an opinion contrary to yours…i.e. GE and so on. Pathetic! Two can play this game which I refuse to do.
BTW, ex, GE?? Now that you have said I should offer an opinion about it, here goes: Do mean the same GE whose boss is your hero’s best bud in the corporate world? The same GE that Truthseeker exposes? Darn right I think they should pay taxes, billions and billions of taxes, back taxes, forward taxes, hidden taxes, made up taxes, penalty taxes….and so on. Does this answer your question?
There is no such thing as dialog with someone who scours every written word straining gnats to find material for a retort. Mary’s post probably sums it up best: She says in response to ex: Most of our discussions end up with me giving you straight facts and solutions, time and again, that for some reason fail to register with you. If I mention the 50s and 60s, its to make the point that gov’t interference was not needed and insurance and gov’t 3rd party payment only leads to increased cost, corruption and billions wasted.
Jack B: I said:I almost had to laugh when I heard a radio talk show host express surprise to learn about Obamaphones….just the tip of the iceberg, been going on for years, and probably the cheapest of the scams that are happening.
An impartial observer would say that the author of the above correctly noted this has been going on for years.
Now, here is your take on it:
If you guys hate Obama then fine but stop making up crap
The same impartial observers would conclude that Jack, you are once again factually incorrect. I never intimated that your hero is alone responsible for Obamaphones. But you have to admit it is more than just co-incidence that the recipients of Obamaphones think it is a way of praising him by naming them such. Bush phones? Doesn’t have much of a ring to it (pun intended).
truth – on your post.
– I don’t think it is a massive failure – but I do think that there needs to be more of a crack down on big pharma. They are, unfortunately, a massive gorilla that pays a lot of money into Washington and gets sweet deals. I’d rather see caps, like Canada does – over just buying through Canada (and routing our money to another country). So I wouldn’t use the words “massive failure”, but it is far from perfect.
– On the estate tax – no, I have not had second thoughts on that.
xalisae – We’re not going to see eye to eye on this…let me just say that the government has economic policies to promote or discourage certain types of behavior. For instance, there’s higher taxes on things like alcohol and cigarettes. I’ve even seen it thrown out on this board to put high taxes on abortions. On the flip side, the government typically gives tax incentives for other behaviors – charitable giving, having kids, buying a home – things the government sees as good.
I do believe that there are give aways that foster dependency. However, I don’t think, simply because the government treats something favorably with monetary policy, that this is a bad thing. I loved Santorum’s idea – thought it would make a big difference on abortion rates.
But again, that’s just me. You disagree, and you have that right.
Mary -
Thanks for the thoughts Mary – what you lay out just isn’t reality, at least based on the health care professionals that I read.
Hans -
Given that the economy was in a complete free fall, I think Obama’s done a pretty nice job. I wish that there was more spending in the public sector to really put the recovery on solid footing (during the Reagan recovery, private and public sectors saw job gains – only private in this one). I think the 5% promise was a foolish one – I don’t think anybody knew the depth of the situation we were in.
I liked Romney – the version of him up until a couple of years ago. I think he was a competent guy, and it was hard watching him “dumb” down his message when everyone knows it wouldn’t work (for instance, his awkward interview on health care, when he was a leader in real solutions when they passed reform). I just couldn’t stomach the thought of going back to the Bush years – I mean, the entire economy collapsed – that’s not a desirable thing (in my opinion).
Jerry – thanks – good to see you finally upset about something other than poor people. Great first step man.
Ex,
You’re getting to be small and petty like Dear Leader. (If he can get 100% of the vote in some districts, he surely is like a North Korean dictator to some of his worshippers.)
Do you really think Jerry doesn’t care about corporate welfare just because he doesn’t like wasteful welfare in general? This seems to be a mirror argument of taxes. Confiscating the wealth of the rich wouldn’t be enough, so this line of thinking will eventually lead to more taxes for the much more numerous 99%.
We need true “fair share” taxes for everyone. A straight flat tax with little to no deductions. Put the burden on the government to live within it’s means.
Lol Obama is so my hero, Jerry. I totally voted for him and everything. That’s funny. And I’ve been on this blog for a a year or two, I don’t need anyone to tell me what you talk about because I’ve seen it for a long time now!
Gee thanks, Jack. Ya bumped me back a page already! ;)
I wouldn’t be cheering too loudly from Ex-GOP’s peanut gallery and tossing popcorn at Jerry. There’s plenty of waste to worry about from top to bottom. And Ex seems perfectly satisfied to go along with Obama’s “soak the rich” distraction and let the spending and borrowing continue.
Oh my goodness, what is with people on this blog thinking I can’t form my own opinions? If Tyler isn’t acting like I have some shadow council of atheists that I report back to as I fulfill their ends to eradicate Christianity or whatever he thinks, it’s you guys acting like I can’t find Jerry’s rhetoric annoying without a nod from Ex.
If you must know, I don’t normally go after Ex’s opinions, even if I disagree with them, because there are usually like eight other people who do so already, lol, it’s just repetitive. This blog is just an echo chamber if nobody disagrees with the right wing party line here. I don’t feel the need to share the more conservative opinions I have, everyone already wrote them down! Someone’s gotta bring a little left here.
And people claim to worry about waste at all levels of government, but when you see dozens and more comments bashing on welfare recipients and nothing about other really expensive abuses, it makes you wonder.
We got to wrap this up..page two? Come on.
Anyways, if Obama is wanting to “soak the rich” then Reagan must have soaked them and lit them on fire.
The rich are doing just fine Hans – they are paying the lowest taxes they ever have. In case you haven’t noticed, we have a deficit issue. The issue is mostly due to spending, but I haven’t seen a sane economist out there that says the whole thing should be made up with spending cuts alone.
You guys haven’t really been following conservative thought and opinion. I’ve read and heard much more about tax loopholes for the rich and favoritism to union bosses and moribund enviro companies than complaining about the poor. Those anecdotes about welfare queens and food stamps for filet mignons have mostly come from ground level.
They might represent the bigger total, but it really is the bigger individual examples like GE that have been discussed in right-leaning media.
Tax rates were higher in the past, but so was the use of tax shelters. Nobody paid a 90% rate. That was just for show. Can you blame the rich for resenting the insistence that they pay even more of their unfair share to a wasteful government and an ungrateful populace? They didn’t get rich in the first place by following our less than successful ways.
“So I wouldn’t use the words “massive failure”, but it is far from perfect.”
Ex-RINO, US prescription drug costs in 2009 were estimated at $250,000,000. That is a quarter of a trillion. If we could buy drugs from Canada at a 50% savings then we could cut our medical costs by $125 billion dollars a year. If that isn’t massive what is? I am seeing a pattern with you; you are also unable to grasp/understand the massive failure known as Obama.
I’d really like it if my son’s monthly Singular script didn’t cost 200 bucks. I’d like it more if I could find a job with insurance that covered it well AND gave me my own income so I could afford not only that, but other things.
Obama gives me neither of those things, and actually HURTS my chances. How ya likin’ all the post-election lay offs and business closings, Ex-RINO? Hopey-changey! ^_^
Hans – I don’t fault anybody for wanting to keep what they earn.
The next few months will be very interesting to see – if the days of political compromise are truly over, we’re headed for a tough 2013. Who knows how this will all shake out.
truth -
I agree with you that the prices are a problem. I don’t agree with you on the solution.
There have been two major drug bills in the last 12 years – the medicare expansion and health care reform. Neither did enough on prescription drugs. While the lack of progress in either bill isn’t enough to call either bill a failure, something more should be done.
The stats I saw said the big pharma industry has spent more than any other industry in regards to lobbying. Easy to see what they get out of it.
xalisae -
So now you’re blaming Obama for not being able to find a better job…lovely.
And she does so rightly. The surest jobs nowadays would be to join the wasteful, dead-end bureaucracy or the insignificant, far-future-payoff green “industry”.
Most businesses, big and small, are under an economic “drone attack” by him.
ex opines:
Jerry – thanks – good to see you finally upset about something other than poor people. Great first step man.
No thanks to you my friend. You really have no clue as to where I am at on a plethora of issues. We barely scratch the surface here. This “first step” is a figment of your imagination.
I’m sorry, Ex-RINO, but do you live in an alternate-reality Wisconsin, where there is no news of widespread lay offs and business closings?
MUST BE NICE THERE!
Our part of the state has lower than average unemployment. There are some closings, but that’s a natural cycle of business. Nothing close to what we say at the end of 2008 though – been good to see a few years of things trending in the right direction.
Ex-RINO,
You said you don’t see this as a massive failure but then I pointed out how how massive (over $100,000,000) of a failure it is and you babbled drivel that seemed to avoid answering wether this was a massive failure or not. Which is it? If $100,000,000 doesn’t qualify as massive in your book tell me how much savings would we need to miss out on before you saw it as a massive failure?
Riiiiiiight. So you DO live in your own little world. Good to know. The last company I worked for went out of business around this time last year. I’ve been unable to get steady employment ever since. I’m probably going to have to declare bankruptcy within the next few years. But things are “trending in the right direction”.
Good grief. I can see it now. In the 2016 election the Democrats will still be griping about those tough months EIGHT years before. What do you guys need? A 20-year term to get things right?
xalisae -
People lose their job in every economy – I’m sorry that you did, I really am – I’m just saying that the economic situation in this country isn’t the worst ever, or even the worst in years.
Good luck on finding something.
truth -
Let me must say again, we disagree on the solution.
This bill did not fix everything all at once – there will need to be further bills and further work. I fully embrace regulations on the pharma industry in regards to their marketing practices, and believe we need to open up further negotiating. My level of what is a failure, massive failure, or not a failure at all is beside the point. What matters is that the bill took many positive steps – but I hope they do more in the future.
Keep your sympathy. I don’t want or need it from you. You can have all the sympathy in the world, but if you lack the common sense God gave a goose, and still insist on voting for people who are not only NOT going to improve the economy so I can help my situation, but actively working against any kind of economic growth or improvement whatsoever, you might as well just spit in my face and tell me how badly you want me to fail.
You sure are a peach today.
I don’t even know what market you were in – maybe it is good that it went again – maybe you were an executioner, or a blackjack dealer.
There have been 32 straight months of private sector job growth. I did vote for continued improvement and economic growth.
Yeesh, Ex-Sensible Voter. She is a peach. You’re a thorn in our side.
This thread is never going to die.
So how about them Mets?
You guys know there’s a fresh Sunday Funnies thread to fight on now, right? :)
Wow. Seriously. Maybe it’s good that I lost my job and can’t provide for my family? Really?
Ex-RINO,
Before I thought you were just ignorant. Now I realize that you’re an ass.
“There have been 32 straight months of private sector job growth.”
Really? Where did you hear that?
xalisae – I only said it would be good if you lost your job if you were a blackjack dealer or an executioner. So which one is it then?
The 32 months is from the CBO – the agreed upon organization for congress:
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3252
You should read through all the charts. Some interesting information regarding how much the fiscal stimulus helped.
Again though – I didn’t say it was good you lost your job – I said that without info on your previous profession, it is hard to conclude who is at fault. For instance, if you were a school teacher in Wisconsin, we would blame a Republican. If you are an oil person in some states, we’d probably blame a Democrat. If you worked at a restaurant and spit in somebody’s food, we’d have to blame you. That’s the only point I was making.