Stanek Sunday funnies 12-2-12
Here were my top five seven favorite cartoons this week, beginning with a twofer by Michael Ramirez at Townhall.com…
by Steve Kelley at Townhall.com…
by Gary McCoy at Townhall.com…
by Henry Payne at Townhall.com…
and closing with a twofer by Mike Luckovich at GoComics.com…

I also noticed Obama hugged the lady Burmese activist and kissed her on the cheek. She seemed very uncomfortable with this. I wonder if he bothered to find out whether or not this is considered acceptable in their culture. I mean, he didn’t know enough to shut up during the playing of the British national anthem at the state dinner with Queen Elizabeth. However according to MSNBC’s Chris Matthews, who fantasizes about Bill Clinton having sex with Martians, it was the Queen’s fault for not violating protocol to spare Obama from looking like the idiot he is.
Mary:
Chris Matthews and the network he is employed as a clown for is a disgrace, zero credibility. I think it is time for us to go ahead and build our own media networks and just ignore the personages and pablum eminating from the MSM. They all behave like a bunch of bratty schoolkids.
What is your opinion about John Boehner and what the Repubs should do going forward?
Hi Jerry,
My opinion, for what its worth, is that Obama’s ridiculous offer shows he has no interest in anything serious and wants this country in an extended recession, hopefully a depression. Obama is in power now for a second term, he has nothing to lose by devastating this country. The Repubs need to get this message out because Obama will try to pin the blame on them. Didn’t I warn on this blog 4 years ago that the blind adulation of Obama as some sort of Messiah, was a red flag from the depths of hell? I knew exactly the kind of mind we would be dealing with, and are.
Krauthammer and Rush say the Republicans should walk away until Obama, who IS the president, shows some leadership and offers a proposal that doesn’t send people into fits of laughter. I really would feel better if someone with a steel pair, like Michelle Bachman, was running this whole thing.
Apparently Obama is instead planning a 20 day 4 million dollar vacation to Hawaii, courtesy of the taxpayer.
“Krauthammer and Rush say the Republicans should walk away …”
I hope they do. I really, really do.
I freely confess that it’s going to be fun watching the self-destruction of the Republican Party. Maybe the Republicans can develop some leadership once that occurs.
What a bunch of fools.
The fiscal cliff negotiations should NOT be played out in the public. Less than a month ago, Americans voted by the tens of millions across this nation to put grown ups into office. What we do NOT need is a President going on a tour of the US taking his case to the people. What we do NOT need is a House majority leader going to press conferences and laughing about offers.
Politicians are here to serve us. All I’ve seen to this point is politicians trying to score points.
Compromise HAS to happen. This HAS to be fixed. This IS NOT about serving one’s political party – this is about serving the country.
GET IT DONE – AND STAY THE HECK OUT OF THE SPOTLIGHT UNTIL YOU GET IT DONE.
I’m really tired of Obama and Boehner right now. You do not need to convince us, the American people. We just voted. We made our voices clear, and now you folks are in office to do a job. Stop campaigning – get it done. I don’t give a flying rat’s behind about pledges you’ve made. Get it done. Get it figured out.
mp 2:13PM
I’m glad we agree they should walk away. That would force Obama to exercise leadership, which would truly be laughable.
BTW, wish the Dear Leader “Aloha”. After all, he’s taking this trip on your dime.
EGV 2:27PM
Maybe you should tell that “grown-up” you put in the presidency to show some leadership and give a proposal that isn’t laughable.
In the meantime wish him and his family “aloha”. Its your dime too.
Mary, I’m sorry, but you people on the extreme right have become a laughingstock. You’ve locked the Republican leadership into an impossible position and they’re going to pay for it.
Unfortunately, so will the people of the United States. This country needs two parties to work and the Republican Party just isn’t working. People are figuring that out.
If you spent any time looking at reality, at the real data from CBO, you’d know that Obama is the only one who’s put substantive proposals on the table.
Keep talking your talk. In fact, I should be thanking you–and characters like Brother Ken–for helping to re-elect Obama.
Mary -
Be an American. Stop just being a Republican.
Both parties are on the news taking their case to the nation more than they are working on this.
mp,
Mary, just take a deep breath and remember Big Joe’s great words of wisdom.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/mcconnell-burst-laughter-geithner-outlined-obamas-plan_664210.html
Oh and Mele Kalikimaka. That’s Hawaiian for Merry Christmas
EGV,
“Be an American”
How dare you say something like that to me.
Read the link in my post to mp. In case you don’t know, the “grown-up” you put in office IS the president who IS supposed to exercise leadership and put a serious proposal forward.
He has no intention of doing so. After you read the post you will see why McConnell laughed.
BTW, Mele Kalikimaka to you as well.
Mary –
Be an American.
Stop being part of the problem. Start being part of the solution.
The GOP is trying to play this out in the public. And I’ve already accused the Dems of doing the same thing. They all need to grow up and work this out. For you to call one side out and not the other is childish and not helpful.
“Oh and Mele Kalikimaka. That’s Hawaiian for Merry Christmas”
You crazies are so much fun. It’s easy to forget that the US president has an entire command and support structure that must follow him everywhere and that costs a lot, but it’s necessary. If it didn’t accompany him, people like you would scream to the high heaven if something happened somewhere and the president wasn’t able to respond and rightfully so. But, were you screaming about the costs associated with Bush’s commuting back and forth to Crawford? I don’t think so.
Reminds me of when the USS Taconic was dispatched from Norfolk for the sole purpose of transporting Eisenhower’s limousines to Bermuda for his meeting with Prime Minister MacMillan. Wow! Think of what that must have cost! Were you screaming then? Well, maybe not. You may have been just a child then.
This is just silly. Merry Christmas to you too.
EGV,
FYI, I am an Independent equally disgusted with both parties and have stated so many times on this blog. Kindly take note. Also refrain from suggesting I “be an American”.
Most of this horsepuckey is going on behind closed doors. The fact remains the president has not put forth a serious proposal to negotiate. He IS the president, is he not? He IS supposed to lead, is he not? He’s still in campaign mode. Its a little hard to negotiate when no serious proposal is forthcoming.
Be an American EGV and own up to the fact Obama is not serious about this.
Aloha.
Really now. This “grown up’s” only accomplishments were bills he left up to his Democratic Congress to draft in the first two years. Since then he has submitted two or three budgets that everyone laughed at and garnered zero votes. He is the most unserious president we’ve ever had. And Carter and Clinton were caricatured as hillbillies! They hold no candle to Obama in the naivete department.
And what’s the matter with hashing this out in public? Afraid to embarrass Dear Leader?
Oh, and one more thing. I don’t consider a few million votes’ difference to show “the people have spoken”. (No, not for Bush-Gore either.) Especially when you have pluralities in exit polls against Obamacare and raising taxes.
Mary – if you’re an “independent” and “equally disgusted with both parties”, at some point it might be good to take off your GOP cheerleader outfit and display this “fair and balanced view”.
Negotiations typically start with sides presenting what they want, and then they start to move towards each other in compromise. It appears that Boehner heard the first offer and then went crying to the public.
National health care is a done deal and it’s a major achievement, along with ending the ginned-up war in Iraq that cost, what, $3 trillion?
It’s the first decent thing done for the American people in a long, long time.
And, yes, it has its problems, but they’ll be worked out and millions of Americans will have access to health care.
BRAVO!
Hans -
I’m not sure how much you know about Government, but the American people are not allowed to vote and make the decision on the fiscal cliff. We are NOT the ones that need convincing – the two parties need to meet and get this figured out. This does not go to a vote by the American people.
Show me a recent poll that says that the American people don’t favor these tax increases on the wealthy.
mp,
LOL. Yes I know all about the president’s command and support structure. What do you suppose it will cost to put them up in Hawaii as well? Don’t you agree that with the nation at the fiscal cliff, the president has far more serious matters to attend to than a trip to Hawaii? That’s called leadership mp. I wonder if that 4 million could be better spent on the Hurricane Sandy victims, who I understand are not very happy with the feds.
As for Eisenhower I was entirely too young to know or care.
I’m not sure how the federal government works, but I can speak for the corporate offices that I work at – and we have things called PHONES. In fact, we also have video conferencing to look at people as well.
They come in handy when Presidents need a break. As any bright country living American would know, Presidents are ALWAYS on the job, but do need breaks.
So I’m 100% comfortable knowing that a President can be in another state and still make sure that the country is moving forward.
mp,
The result of your Dear Leader’s “major achievement”
http://www.visiontoamerica.com/13128/obama-care-fallout-hospitals-will-see-massive-layoffs-decline-in-2013/
The result of your Dear Leader’s “major achievement”
More propaganda. You need to get in touch with reality and start reading CBO reports.
You know, this “Dear Leader” stuff is laughable. Smear, propaganda, it’s what you people are good at. Crank up the noise machine!
Well, Cassandra, I’ve got news for you. It ain’t workin’.
The American people are a little smarter than you seem to think.
EGV, 3:28PM
Sure, when you take off yours. I have not been at all pleased with Boehner and I have made it plain time and again that I prefer someone with a real pair, like Michele Bachman.
The president IS the leader and should conduct himself as such. That includes foregoing a vacation, presenting a serious proposal, and negotiating from there.
The Dear Leader should not instead be discussing his “naughty and nice” list while campaigning in Philadelphia, the election is over is it not?
mp,
I have decided to heed Big Joe’s, may he rest in peace, great words of wisdom.
Apparently facts only add to your confusion.
Mary and I save our condescension for Dear Leader, not so much for the lemmings he’s playing his pipe for.
The CBO says all kinds of inconvenient things too. Like there still being tens of millions without coverage in the next decade.
I think you two will be eating crow well before the midterm election.
Mary
I continue to be disappointed in the inaccurate information that you post on this site. I’d say it is downright lying, but I’m simply going to say that you are sloppy in your research.
Here is a direct link to the AHA information regarding the 93,000 jobs. It is the possible effect of the Budget Control act that was put in place to force politicians to come to an agreement.
To link this to Health Care Reform is somewhere between stupid and dishonest.
http://www.ahanews.com/ahanews/jsp/display.jsp?dcrpath=AHANEWS/AHANewsNowArticle/data/ann_091212_jobs&domain=AHANEWS
Hi Mary:
Yes, you did warn us and more than anyone else took the pains to explain the sociopathy of our President. We see how unserious Obama is by his going off at this time to vacation even as the fiscal cliff his policies have created have inched us all the closer to the precipice. He sends out the tax evading Secretary of the Treasury Timmy Geithner to offer an unserious proposal which was so over the top one can only conclude it was designed to be rejected.
We need to see constitutionalist representatives stand up for how we do business in this country. Unlike Obama, who sees class warfare everywhere he looks, we stand for the principle that no single group should be singled out for penalties because they have been successful. We reward success in our system, but Obama sees it as unfairness. Look how pathetically small minded the liberals are…how they pretend against the facts that somehow they are the ones that have the answers…this after the unconscionable and record breaking run-up in deficit spending they have given us past four years.
Apparently facts only add to your confusion.
BWAHAHAHA!
A great way to end this “conversation.”
It’s a beautiful day today and I’m off to enjoy it.
Mary
When I take off mine?
Seriously?
Have you read this thread???
I called out both parties, including Obama – called them out directly.
You put on your GOP cheerleading outfit and have come in with inaccurate information and GOP talking points.
Stop being part of the problem.
And Bachmann…she should be committed (and not to her job, to an institution).
Hans -
Second time – looking for a poll.
And to talk about the midterms is cute, but not helpful – quite frankly, just about every midterm, the party of the President loses spots. To predict that isn’t very insightful…
Kinda funny to see the proabort trolls complain that the GOP isn’t giving Obama what he wants. 48% of those who voted in the last election voted to STOP OBAMA. Why did we lose? Because of racist minorities who had to vote for another minority “just because” even if they knew it would be bad for the country. Obama is a cult of personality after all. And we also lost because young people think they should get more free stuff. Tis better to tax the rich than to give, right?
Now mp can tell me how foolish it is to chide young people and how it will hurt the GOP. The Dems are free to troll for the racist vote and the ignoramus vote. But if they keep growing those two groups to increase the number of Dem voters, we’re going to have problems that even Obama won’t be able to ignore.
“Why did we lose? Because of racist minorities who had to vote for another minority “just because” even if they knew it would be bad for the country. Obama is a cult of personality after all. And we also lost because young people think they should get more free stuff. Tis better to tax the rich than to give, right?”
Classy. Real Classy.
They all have to work together – and I agree that the president needs to stop campaigning and start making a real difference here.
Not all the people supported Obama. Despite this, he needs to lead as president – and I am sick of both parties trying to set the other side up as the bad guy.
In addition – adding more taxes ‘to the rich’ will not solve this problem – this is a problem where all need to help out. We can not have everything for ‘free’ – someone is paying for the ‘free’ stuff. It’s time to balance the budget like any family does – live beyond your means and it’s disaster, just like now.
Make government programs accountable and lean, have the congress live by their own laws – including health care that others have, not their fancy plan….Have the SS tax limit increase with inflation, and have the congress limit their salaries until the job is done and done properly.
Lots of things to do – but spend 4 million on a vacation? Shameful. Every expenditure should be evaluated for efficacy and rational. We need to do better – it’s not ‘no-one’s money’ — it’s our tax dollars and they need to be spent wisely and well.
No more nonsense
… ok … I am done with my rant now! ;).
joy –
I agree – raising taxes isn’t the only component of a solution.
I think the general 3 for 1 framework (3 dollars for cuts for every 1 dollar in revenue) isn’t a bad solution.
Do you believe that taxes do need to be raised for some as part of the solution?
Oh yeah, that 3 for 1 deal worked out so well for Reagan and Dole.
You have to have a Party that lives up to its word to negotiate with. The GOP has the Tea Party breathing down its neck to hold down spending. Who are the Democrats accountable to?
Hans -
The Democrats are accountable to the American people, who voted them in this last election.
Third request – please back up this statement “specially when you have pluralities in exit polls against…raising taxes.”
“Classy. Real Classy. ”
Sometimes the truth isn’t pretty. Obama was elected thanks to racism and ignorance. That is irrefutable.
I don’t think you understand what the term “irrefutable” means.
It does not much “without merit” and “completely baseless”.
For the record though, i completely support the GOP continuing to do what they do in hopes that the results will simply change.
“For the record though, i completely support the GOP continuing to do what they do in hopes that the results will simply change.”
You just spent all day on here wringing your hands, hoping that the GOP and Obama would come to some kind of agreement. Now you say you want the GOP to keep opposing Obama? If I thought you had any decency I would ask you to tell us which of your statements are lies.
John L -
You mischaracterized what I said.
I didn’t say that the GOP should keep opposing Obama. I said that they should keep doing what they do – and I said that in response to your post about the election.
What the GOP did was, instead of trying to win the votes of minorities and women, they generally made fun of them and discounted them. In the end, they lost because of that.
Meh. Exit polls are useless. So says Nate Silver:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/ten-reasons-why-you-should-ignore-exit.html
Ex-GOP (Voter),
Have you gone back to your old moniker or (shudder) are there two of you? :)
Skipping over Navi’s post ( :) ), I was thinking of the poll question about raising taxes in order to “solve” the deficit. Clearly your fellow Obama-voting comrades are perfectly fine with doing it merely to punish success.
http://www.nysun.com/national/little-noticed-exit-poll-finds-63-saying-no/88069/
The other poll I had a blessed false memory about. It appears all the media onslaught has whittled down the opposition to Obamacare to below 50%. They, and you will soon see the folly of that support.
http://www.nj.com/us-politics/index.ssf/2012/11/exit_polls_2012_split_on_obama.html
Hans -
A few things:
– If the current tax thoughts are “punishing success”, then Reagan must have really hated successful people. Quite frankly, you are simply passing on an untrue talking point.
– As people have learned more about how health care reform benefits them, and the dangers of staying with the status quo, the numbers have gone up in polls. No surprise.
– Should we look at some recent polls that support that an easy majority of people support raising taxes on the wealthy as a component to the overall plan? Do you want to simply trust me, or would you like to see some links?
“What the GOP did was, instead of trying to win the votes of minorities and women, they generally made fun of them and discounted them. In the end, they lost because of that.”
So to win their votes we need to run unbelievably unqualified black men with zero work ethic who delight in abortion. Got it.
Romney campaigned for the votes of ALL Americans by promising to rise the tide for all boats. Not black boats, not female boats – ALL boats.
Some talking points just seem to reek of truth. :) It’s been a never-ending four years of “you didn’t build that or pay your fair share” nonsense. It’s the underlying motto of your side. Anyone with a lick of sense knows it wouldn’t make a dent in the deficit. Only economic growth will, and restricting the “growers” is just plain ridiculous. We must restrict what is hamstringing growth. Good luck with all that now.
I’m off to watch entertaining fairy tales, not to contemplate depressing political ones. And then I’ll watch a portrayal of the Zombie Acopalypse that we are sure to witness.
John
Cry and complain and whine all you want. At the end of the day, 62+ million people, which translated to over 330 electoral votes, wanted Obama to be President instead of Romney.
You can say they are ignorant. You can say they are racist. You can make fun of Obama all day long.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. Obama won quite easily, and the GOP, which had hoped to win the Presidency and take over the Senate, came up short in both areas.
Again, your first post was massively classless, and summed up the issue that the GOP has with the American voter right now. You see a majority of the country as stupid idiots that are generally worthless.
But those people are voters, and they voted. And they’ll be happy to vote again in 4 more years. And if the GOP continues to think that half of the country is stupid idiots and are generally worthless, they’ll lose again.
I really can’t put it any more basic than that.
Why did we lose? Because of racist minorities who had to vote for another minority “just because” even if they knew it would be bad for the country.
You know obama got the same mintority support that clintion got right? But dont let facts get in the way. 47% (and rapidly dropping as more votes come in) didnt vote for him but more americans voted for a democratic congress than not. Boehner and his friends lost the house popular vote, they need to remember that. As mentioned the party in whitehouse usually loses in the midterm but with the way the GOP picks their candidates i wont be so sure.
I think that the 2nd cartoon applies more to Condoleeza Rice and all the lies she told before and after she became Secretary of State in order to justify the Iraq War,than it does to Ambassador Susan Rice.
As far as a mandate for the President and the Democrats in Congress, remember not a single Democratic incumbent lost at the Federal level. That is in the US House, US Senate, or the President. Additionally, the Democratic Representative in the House received a total of more than a million more votes than the total of all the Republican Representatives did, nation-wide.
I think that this shows that most voters agreed with the positions taken by the Democratic Party, than those of the Republican Party. This makes it clear that the Republicans are being nothing but obstructionists.
Hans -
Good talking to you. Hope you have fun watching the movie. Fairy tales and escaping reality are fun. Seems like you are there already if you believe $1.6 trillion isn’t even a “dent”. Love it!
EGV,
Troll all you want. NOBODY believes that you are pro-life. At the end of the day, you and your party relied on racism, mindless hatred, ignorance, fear, and child murder to win your “historic” victory. You whipped up into a crazed frenzy the largest lynch mob in American history, consisting of 62 million people.
At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter. God’s eyes can see through all deception and when you stand naked before Him the time for games will be over. It would be in your best interest to repent before then.
“Romney campaigned for the votes of ALL Americans by promising to rise the tide for all boats. Not black boats, not female boats – ALL boats. ”
Total bullsh–. He literally said he didn’t care about 47% of the country, that we were just out for free stuff. I saw zero effort by Romney to connect with people outside his little comfort zone.
I don’t understand this, do you guys even want to ever win the presidency again? Then why do you absolutely refuse to consider that maybe the GOP has a problem appealing to wide swaths of the population, and maybe start working on that, eh? Maybe admitting a little fault on the GOP side will be cathartic for you, or something. Good lord.
EGV, 3:59PM
Before you accuse me of being ”sloppy” in my research Google “hospital jobs lost to Obamacare” for a slew of articles as to how Obamacare is affecting jobs and hospital employment. While you’re at it check out how it is effecting businesses. Why do you suppose around 1000 Obamacare waivers have already been granted by the Dear Leader?
The American Hospital Association that you source was a big supporter of Obamacare who along with Big Pharma and the AMA, received concessions for its support
Depends on which source you want to trust.
http://www.whoromneyis.com/Issues/ObamaCareJobLoss.html
Tell me EGV, is it a coincidence that as 2013 approaches and Obamacare is a given that hospital layoffs will be occuring by the thousands? Financial problems are certainly nothing new with hospitals, believe me. Also, there may be a problem if the Dear Leader doesn’t put an end to the HHS mandate and Catholic hospitals are forced to close, a mandate he had no Constitutional authority to issue.
John -
I know I’m pro-life. The Lord knows I’m pro-life. The last person I need judgment from you is – heck, for all I know you’re some 14 year old girl living in Boise. Make sure you fully understand that I don’t really care a whole lot about the judgments of people who know very little about me. In fact, if I could list 1000 people I know, you’d easily be in the bottom 5%. And I should be on the bottom of your list. I know nothing about you and your views – all I know is words. To judge on what i know about you on this board – about your heart – about your salvation – it would be foolish. Pure foolishness.
You have a theory about the election. It isn’t passed on facts – it isn’t backed up by polls – it is nonsense. You’d be best off forgetting that you ever dreamed it up, do some research, and come back to the adults’ table another kid. The table you are – the one with the birthers and the 9/11 conspiracy people – it will do you no good in the long run. You need to make adult judgements about adult things, stop degrading half the population, and wake up to reality.
Again though, let me be clear – you are not my judge or jury. If you don’t understand anything else in this post – that’s fine – but get this part through your head – don’t pretend that you know me enough to pass judgment on me.
“Total bullsh–. He literally said he didn’t care about 47% of the country, that we were just out for free stuff. ”
He most certainly did not. He said that his message on taxation would not appeal to those who don’t pay taxes. That’s it. The rest are words that you put in his mouth – examples of the ignorance, hatred, fear-mongering and slander that resulted in Obama’s “victory”.
Liberals will eventually reap the whirlwind of their own evil. Unfortunately all of us will suffer.
Mary -
Let’s clear up this 93,000 number before we go further.
The 93,000 – you said it that it was because of Health Care Reform.
is that a true statement or a false statement?
“My job is not to worry about those people.”
Romney, referring to the 47%.
I don’t know how a thinking person could see that quote, and then say that he ran a campaign appealing to all voters.
Hi Jack,
I recall Obama also referring to certain Americans as “bitter clingers” who cling to their guns and religion and don’t like people different from themselves. You know, those backwoods bigoted hicks in their bowling shirts and pickups. He was recorded at a fundraiser of San Francisco elites. Funny we heard little criticism of this by the MSM.
EGV,
I would hope Obama’s comments were as offensive to you.
“He most certainly did not. He said that his message on taxation would not appeal to those who don’t pay taxes. That’s it. The rest are words that you put in his mouth – examples of the ignorance, hatred, fear-mongering and slander that resulted in Obama’s “victory”. ”
Nah, Ex quoted his exact quote. And that’s a bs thing for him to say anyway. I do care about tax policies even though I have never paid federal income tax. He just went out of his way to alienate a big chunk of the population, whether you would like to admit it or not. And you guys will put up someone even further right next time, and he will do even worse. You refuse to learn.
EGV,
I gave a source that said it was related to Obamacare, as you gave a source that said it was not.
I suggested you check out google where there are any number of articles on this issue.
“I recall Obama also referring to certain Americans as “bitter clingers” who cling to their guns and religion and don’t like people different from themselves. You know, those backwoods bigoted hicks in their bowling shirts and pickups. He was recorded at a fundraiser of San Francisco elites. Funny we heard little criticism of this by the MSM.”
Sure, I didn’t like what he said either. And before anyone jumps on me I didn’t even vote for Obama, and I don’t even particularly like him. All I am saying is, I hear a lot of whining from the GOP supporters about how horrible and stupid everyone who voted for Obama is, and it’s just digging them in deeper, alienating more voters. And everyone refuses to learn or look at it rationally.
Mary -
I did a google search. Didn’t find a single news organization that touted the numbers – just a bunch of biased blogs that didn’t do their homework.
I did find the 93,000 number and provided it to you.
Now that you’ve looked at multiple sources – the 93,000 – you said it that it was because of Health Care Reform.
is that a true statement or a false statement?
EGV,
Which “Lord” are you referring to? Obama? Just FYI “prolife” usually doesn’t mean “supporting of the strongest abortion proponents”, but you are so wrapped up and lost in your own lies who knows if you even know what you’re talking about any longer. When well over 90% of a racial group supports a candidate and worships him as a god it’s not the GOP that has problems. When young people go out in force and vote for a man just because he’s “cool”, and Romney is “old”, it’s not the GOP that has problems. The Democratic Party has put us on the road to fascist rule brought about by an ignorant and racist electorate.
Plus I see in typical liberal Democrat fashion when I sought to correct you – told you that lying is a bad idea – you say I’m judging you. I’m not judging you – I’m warning you. If you choose to ignore the warning it’s not the GOP’s problem.
EGV 4PM
Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? I clearly stated I am not happy with Boehner and would like to see someone with a real pair in charge.
Now let’s hear you acknowledge that Obama needs to stop campaigning, conduct himself like a leader, put a plan on the table, one that isn’t laughable, demand the parties negotiate and not take any trips to Hawaii or elsewhere until such time as this issue is settled.
John –
The Lord I’m referring to is the Lord of the Old and New Testament, that came to this earth as Jesus and died for my sins.
That Lord.
Again, stop being a judgmental jerk, come to grips with the reality of this election, and move on.
Mary -
Are you kidding me?
“What we do NOT need is a President going on a tour of the US taking his case to the people. ”
Who said that on this thread? Oh yeah, that would be me.
And I don’t have an issue with reading comprehension. What I do have an issue with is people who post lies, bad statistics, and don’t research to find out the actual information that is readily available. I don’t like having to fact check all your posts because you have a long history of simply being untrue. Again, it might be sloppy – but it gets old, seeing you post things like 93,000 jobs lost in an industry next year because of health care reform, and then in literally, five minutes of researching, find that the number was twisted from an AHA statement on a different issue.
If my kids were so sloppy in their research, I’d be disappointed. And they are in elementary school.
“Which “Lord” are you referring to? Obama?”
This schtick is getting old. Is it really not possible to you that someone can be a Christian and vote and think differently than you? This is one of the main reasons I stay the heck away from church, honestly. I have met way too many people like that.
“When well over 90% of a racial group supports a candidate and worships him as a god it’s not the GOP that has problems. When young people go out in force and vote for a man just because he’s “cool”, and Romney is “old”, it’s not the GOP that has problems. The Democratic Party has put us on the road to fascist rule brought about by an ignorant and racist electorate. ”
Yes, the GOP has no problems. Completely right. They make no gaffes, they don’t alienate voters every other minute. Accusing everyone who voted for Obama of being stupid and racist, lazy and wanting free stuff, that’s totally the right tactic and it works out super well.
This partisanship is getting insane.
EGV,
I already have come to grips with the election. I already told you that the truth is not pretty here. Racism and ignorance won the day. That’s all. The GOP should work to fight racism, inform the ignorant, and counter the slander that caused them to lose. The GOP needs to go into the black community are free the people from the philosophical slavery of the ghetto. The next GOP president will be a second Lincoln who frees black people from the prison of the Democratic Party, a prison with walls made of the soft bigotry of low expectations and irrational fear.
“Accusing everyone who voted for Obama of being stupid and racist, lazy and wanting free stuff, that’s totally the right tactic and it works out super well.”
Here is the problem. This is not a “tactic”. It is simply the truth, nothing more and nothing less. Should we refrain from speathey the truth to win elections? Racism is evil and must be dispelled. The GOP must go into the ghetto and fight the racism.
“Here is the problem. This is not a “tactic”. It is simply the truth, nothing more and nothing less. Should we refrain from speathey the truth to win elections? Racism is evil and must be dispelled. The GOP must go into the ghetto and fight the racism.”
It is not “truth”. It is rhetoric. It’s as much rhetoric as “clinging to their Bibles and guns” is. Now, if you people were actually serious about figuring out why there is such a huge racial, gender, age, and class discrepancy between Republican and Democrat voters, maybe we could actually have a discussion about how to mend the country a bit. But no, you simply want to paint everyone as stupid, evil, lazy who doesn’t agree with you. There is simply no way to discuss this with your side. That’s why you will continue to lose.
EGV,
Correct me if I’m wrong, but was your source the American Hospital Association News, an organization that supported and benefitted from Obamacare? This is a news organization?
Seems they may be as biased as you claim my sources are.
Another 93,000 article:
http://notasitlooks.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/unforeseen-consequences/
The article points out the mainstream media hasn’t addressed this yet. I know you’re as shocked as I am.
Hopefully the Dear Leader will realize his unconstitutional HHS mandate could have some very dire consequences for health care if it forces Catholic hospitals to close down.
EGV,
I know what you said about what the president shouldn’t be doing. Big deal.
Now how about saying what he SHOULD be doing, like exercising true leadership.
Anyway about the comics this week… I love the Colorado ones, they make me laugh.
I don’t understand the Payne comic. What’s the point of that one, what’s it trying to say? The “Obama eats dog” thing is getting old btw.
Mary -
I think you should connect the dots. If an article says the American Hospital Association is the source of information for the 93,000 – and then we find that source, and it ISN’T about health care reform – I think you should be a standup enough individual to admit that the information you posted was inaccurate.
Or should we keep going? In the article, it talked about Orlando Health. Maybe you should do a little research on the truth of the job cuts. I just did. Did you want my summary, or would you like to look into it?
Or the truth too inconvenient for your rhetoric, so you’d like to bypass it so you can believe whatever you want?
Let me know.
EGV,
Here I go again, doing your research for you. Interesting article in the New York Post by an expert on Obamacare, someone who actually read the entire bill. Will shed some light on the massive layoffs and how they are related to Obamacare.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/dems_medicare_lie_wb01zVcMLe4iVNhNy3qGJP
Mary – I’ll talk about any issue you’d like once we get to the bottom of this 93,000 number that you put out there.
Let’s take it step by step – where does the 93,000 number come from? Read as many articles as you’d like – it has to come from somewhere, right? Or did somebody make it up?
Let me know and then we’ll move on, together, to step two.
I wonder if that 4 million could be better spent on the Hurricane Sandy victims, who I understand are not very happy with the feds.
Yes, well, it would appear that Mr. Boehner has a problem with Hurricane Sandy aid, especially given the views of his wingnut Tea Party friends.
I trust y’all will work it out before you’re lynched.
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/stan-collender/2672/boehner-really-hot-seat-hurricane-sandy-aid?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+CapitalGainsAndGames+%28Capital+Gains+and+Games+-+Wall+Street%2C+Washington%2C+and+Everything+in+Between%29
EGV,
Your own source said 93,000. I gave a source in my early post that said the same thing. What more do you need?
So we both agree that the 93,000 came from the American Hospital Association, correct?
We agree that both our sources have the same number, so the issue is what?
So find the report or source of this info – they have a website, do some searches, and let me know what you find.
mp,
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/nov/4/curl-sandy-is-obamas-katrina-but-the-media-looks-a/?page=all
Mary, Mr. Curl’s self-admitted opinion is entertaining, but divorced from the facts.
I must say I enjoy watching you folks squirm.
Well, it’s off to dinner for me.
Don’t give me an assignment like I’m one of your children EGV.
mp,
LOL. Enjoy your dinner mp.
Ex-GOP,
” Fairy tales and escaping reality are fun. Seems like you are there already if you believe $1.6 trillion isn’t even a “dent”. Love it! ”
Obama has a plan to wipe out this year’s deficit? How did I miss that? You do know I was referring to the obvious fact that his tax raising wouldn’t make a dent? Who’s he going to shake down for $1.6 trillion??
Jack, Jack, Jack,
“He literally said he didn’t care about 47% of the country, that we were just out for free stuff. I saw zero effort by Romney to connect with people outside his little comfort zone.”
He didn’t literally say that he “didn’t care” about 47% of the country. Doesn’t that line of newspeak make your skin crawl like it does mine? The MSM and the polls about which candidate “cares” more about poor widdle me? Arghh!
He only said this was a voting block he couldn’t depend on. That’s politics. That’s what voting “bases” and, obviously, thier opposites are about. That’s why we talk about swing states and not the ones firmly in one camp or another.
Why can’t the Right side ever get away with treating people like grown-ups? Why can’t they focus their efforts on their main constituencies without being accuse of being racist or elitist?
And why can’t I remember to italicize quotes before I post a comment? :(
You know, I agree that the GOP needs to accept a lot of blame. They give people far too much credit that they will think about the issues rather than simply vote on appeal. Until the GOP can find someone cool enough to dazzle on talk shows, many voters will not look up from their cell phones to see that political principles do not fit in one-liner facebook memes and that the world is crumbling around us.
EGV – Why do you think Obama spreads the lie that planned parenthoods do mammograms?
” He only said this was a voting block he couldn’t depend on. That’s politics. That’s what voting “bases” and, obviously, thier opposites are about. That’s why we talk about swing states and not the ones firmly in one camp or another.”
That’s not what he said.
“There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it — that that’s an entitlement. And the government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. … These are people who pay no income tax. … [M]y job is not to worry about those people. I’ll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives.”
If you take government assistance or don’t pay income tax, apparently you think you are entitled to everything from the government and will vote Obama no matter what. First, that’s not what all die-hard Dem voters are like. If you really think it’s a good idea for Romney to write off half the country like that, then certainly nothing I say is going to convince you otherwise. I suppose I fall into that 47% (I don’t pay income tax, at least), and honestly Obama’s abortion policies were literally the only reason I didn’t vote for him, based from what I saw from the GOP. Not because I’m lazy or entitled, but because it’s increasingly clear that the GOP is not looking out for my interests, based on what I have seen from them. This quote just summed it up nicely. He was just pushing the “they just want your tax money” button that triggers a Pavlovian response in GOP voters, apparently.
And Romney lost Florida because of his attitude. He could have won us, but the last couple months before the election I saw more and more people be put off by this type of attitude. I don’t know what it was like in other swing states but I know what it was like in mine.
Oh, and not to mention that Romney’s a freaking idiot anyway, considering that some of the demographics of terrible lazy entitled people who don’t pay income tax tend Republican.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57515033-503544/fact-checking-romneys-47-percent-comment/
Oops. Who’da thunk it.
Sorry Hans, I reread my last comments and they sounded way angrier and snarkier than I meant them to. I just get frustrated that no one can admit at all that maybe the GOP should think about changing the way they do things.
mp 3:50PM
“Well Cassandra, I’ve got new for you. It ain’t workin’ “
mp, say what you will about Cassandra, was she not proven correct? And what happened to the people who wouldn’t listen to her?
I apologize for my not thanking you sooner for this compliment.
LOL Jack. Yes, I know. If it makes you feel better, my husband and I have a couple at church we avoid because they’re so Team R, and that’s all they want to talk to us about once they figured out we are politically aware of the world. We disagree with, I don’t know, a good bit of their assumptions. We want to be Christians at church, not dragged into these petty debates about the so-called “lamestream media” and how evil all Democrats are. Sorry, but there are idiots on both sides. So, I feel ya, bro.
Jack,
Romney’s 47% comment was a ham-handed conflation of the two well-known facts. That this is a 50/50 country. Obama’s base dependable voters was at around 47%. It was coincidental that it’s about the same number for those who don’t pay federal income taxes. These two things have been topics of conversation in conservative circles for some time. His mistake was blending the two. Or seeming to.
If he said this group votes Democratic and immediately said this number doesn’t pay federal income taxes, that doesn’t mean he believes both aspects are uniformly true for the 47%.
I really think this is nitpicking and assuming bad motives. Like when Romney said he wasn’t concerned with those with lower income. He also clearly said they had a “safety net” and his priority - his concern - was for the middle class. He was ripped for that comment. It was so obvious that he wasn’t saying, “Let ’em die in the streets!” That’s how hysterical people can get.
Romney didn’t say he didn’t care about the 47%. Whoever they may be. Just that that was the number he couldn’t make a real dent in for votes. His pledge was to improve the lives of the 100%. It is Obama who targets the 1% at the very least, and ridicules business owners, and accuses those who don’t vote for him to be greedy, clingers of Bibles and guns, and xenophobic.
Under Obama’s leadership the next four years it is the working middle-class and the working poor that are gonna get hit the hardest. The ones that were able to afford health insurance themselves will be thrown onto Obamacare (otherwise known as the great medicare expansion) and the care they get will completely suck. The government better be training a ‘lot’ of doctors to care for this huge influx of citizens that are going to added to Medicare.
Taxes will go up on everybody. The unemployment rolls will increase. Hey, I only had one vote and there was nothing more I could do. We will just have to watch the pain and hope people choose freedom of socialism/statism in 2014. I am ready for the cliff before I would let Obama continue his wreckless spending binge. Did he really propose removing the debt ceiling and letting him spend as much as he deems appropriate? The guy who is going into his second term (four years now) without ever passing a budget. It time for the fiscally conservative people on both sides of the aisle to play hardball with this punk.
Mary -
I don’t mean to treat you like a child, but when you find an article that says the AHA says x amount of jobs will be lost – and I find the recent article on the AHA site that says x amount of jobs will be lost – and you completely deny/ignore the actual facts of what the AHA site said, and instead, choose to believe a website that has obviously lied about it…
…please, tell me what I should do?
Seriously?
Fill in the blank Mary – the 93,000 jobs that could be lost, according to the AHA, are because of:
A) Health Care Reform
B) The cuts found in the fiscal cliff budget cuts
LIfeJoy –
Sure – what you say is cute, but let’s not forget that the most memorable moment for the Democratic convention was a college lecture style speech by Clinton, and the most memorable moment for the GOP convention was an old hollywood actor talking to a chair. You can say that it is based on something more than one-liners – but I don’t see it. I actually saw a very uncomplicated argument by the GOP lacking specifics on anything.
On planned parenthood – I can’t tell you if he lies or just didn’t know. There were a lot of politicians on both sides of the aisle that botched facts about planned parenthood. All I’d be doing is speculating in any explanation. Of course he’s going to defend them and the GOP is going to attack them – it is all about the money trail and where they donate to.
Hans -
Your explanation on the 47% might be right, might be wrong – who knows.
The perception that Romney didn’t care about the general person was shown in many, many polls. So whether he meant to say what he meant, he created a perception that he didn’t care. That’s a fact.
Factchecking the 7:14pm post (I can’t, in good conscience, write the word tr*th” in relation to what was posted).
- The ones that were able to afford health insurance themselves will be thrown onto Obamacare (otherwise known as the great medicare expansion) and the care they get will complete suck.
——Those who can afford health insurance will buy from the private market – not medicare. Medicare is not being expanded to millions more people – that simply isn’t true.
“Taxes will go up on everybody. The unemployment rolls will increase.”
—–This is actually possibly true, but it would be the fault of both parties if a deal isn’t cut and the fiscal cliff negotiations fail. Otherwise, economists are projecting unemployment to continue to decrease.
“I am ready for the cliff before I would let Obama continue his wreckless spending binge.”
—–This actually isn’t even a sentence – or is an illogical one at best. I think a wrong word was inserted somewhere. Or left out?
“The guy who is going into his second term (four years now) without ever passing a budget.”
—-The executive branch doesn’t pass budgets – the legislative branch passes budgets.
EGV,
Our sources agree on the number so let’s drop it OK? Is a non issue.
I gave you an article by an expert on Obamacare, someone who, unlike our legislators and president, has actually read the entire bill. She explains how Obamacare will destroy Medicare and will result in cuts to medical services, already starting, thus resulting in the impending layoffs and more to come, and a serious threat to our senior citizens.
You have an argument with this, contact her.
Mary -
Our sources agree on the number, but you don’t agree with the cause of the number. I’ll ask for what, the fourth time?
The 93,000 – you said it that it was because of Health Care Reform. Is that a true statement or a false statement?
I’ll certainly talk about the article you posted, but I”m not going to until we get agreement on this. You posted that you think health care reform, according to the AHA, will cost 93,000 jobs in 2013. I think I’ve showed you that this is 100% false. Do you agree or not?
EGV,
I’m not going on and on about this. I made no claims about anything, my source did.
Now I’ve showed you two articles that connect Obamacare to decreased senior care, increased costs to hospitals, decreased funding, and the inevitable layoffs that will result. According to McCaughey this has begun as of October 2012 so hospitals, in anticipation of Obamacare and cutoffs, are bracing themselves, as McCaughey says NY hospitals have begun to do. Different sources state these layoffs are the result of Obamacare. Read McCaughey’s article and connect the dots.
Sorry Mary – not even going to read the article until you can address this information you posted. There is no need to be stubborn. You can simply admit that you posted information which you later found out to be wrong.
Or do you not believe it to be wrong?
That’s what I’m scared about -even when led to water, you keep denying the truth. Both your source and what I posted can’t be write – they contradict each other. Which one?
EGV,
Your source says the 93,000 is for one reason, my source says another. I back it up with McCaughey’s article which you acknowledge you haven’t read. I also gave you another source that shows how Obamacare will result in layoffs and increased costs to hospitals. Now since both sources say 93,000, then I suppose you can just draw your own conclusions.
No EGV, don’t be scared of me. Its the Dear Leader who has pulled a fast one here. To think people actually believe they will get quality care at minimal to no cost when screwing over our seniors is what’s really on the agenda.
Read McCaughey’s articles EGV, you’re in for a rude awakening.
I may be the only one still reading this thread. But someone’s got to throw in a like or two. ;)
I’m still reading it in between my flame wars.
Mary – the source of the 93,000 figure IS THE AHA. The article you posted said THEY ARE THE SOURCE.
And the only thing either of us have offered, from the AHA, is an article with the exact 93,000 figure that says that the figure is NOT due to health care reform.
Are you simply saying that you are fine with me posting any sort of thing I want, and as long as I can post a source, any article that says it is true, that I’m beyond fact checking?
Seriously? Is that what you want?
EGV,
The AHA supported Obamacare and along with Big Pharma, received concessions. Now, does that influence who they hold responsible for the impending layoffs? I don’t know. I just know there are sources that say Obamacare is responsible for the impending layoffs and I have posted them for you. Now who the source of the 93,000 is, whether one source sourced another, isn’t the issue. The question you raised was the reason for the layoffs. AHA says it is for one reason, other sources say its because of Obamacare.
Now I hope you read that article as to who and what is really destroying Medicare and resulting in cuts to hospitals, thus resulting in layoffs.
Mary –
Literally, anything you post no longer matters to me. If you don’t understand how facts work, and how sources work, then nothing else matters in our discussions. By your twisted logic, I could post that planned parenthood does mamograms, and if I found an article supporting that view, I’d be above criticism and fact checking from you! It’s simply unbelievable!
And for Hans to agree with you is just scary. It makes me think I’m in some parallel universe where facts and lies are just flipped.
Last time.
You posted an article that said the AHA was saying 93,000 jobs would be cut because of Health Care Reform. I found the AHA article that said that 93,000 jobs would be cut if the fiscal cliff is not avoided. These are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. And yet, you still believe that the job cuts are because of reform, not because you will find out the facts…but because you read it in an article somewhere.
Unbelievable.
EGV,
Uh EGV, I just reread the article and it doesn’t mention the AHA or quote them. Check it yourself and correct me if I’m wrong. Maybe everyone, including the AHA got the 93,000 from the same source, I’m sure it wasn’t pulled out of thin air, and applied their own rationale to it. I presented articles to you that give a good argument that Obamacare is the cause. I have no clue what PP and mammograms have to do with this discussion but find an article that proves they do mammograms and you’ll get no argument from me.
Oh, and try to read those articles.
Mary -
You did send me on a bit of a goose chase. I read your original article and said to myself “that’s odd – there’s no source for the 93,000”.
I also saw MANY fringe news organizations with almost the same article – because that is what happens, one posts something, and the rest post the same thing – so I said to myself “I bet one of them will have the source of the information in it”.
So I found this:
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/obamacare-forces-93000-hospital-job-cuts-in-2013-nc-hospitals-costs-up-7-5-billion-the-next-10-years-medicare-and-medicaid-reimbursements-mass-layoffs/
“He said layoffs are sweeping the industry. Graban referred to a report from the American Hospital Association that says hospitals will cut 93,000 jobs during 2013.”
“A-ha”, I said to myself – we have a source. Let’s go find it on the AHA page – so I went to the AHA page, and found the number pretty quickly.
Now, if you have an article that lists a number, and you can’t find a number – do you simply take it at face value? I think I’ve shown a pretty logical path there. The majority of the articles I found posted back to the One World Now, or whatever it was – the article they had – which obviously lifted the majority of content from the article I posted – though it left out the information in regards to where the source was.
Mary -
Let’s stay on this article that you posted – so first off, we have the 93,000 number that all I can link it to is the fiscal cliff talks.
Next, the article talks about Orlando Health. But what are the reasons Orlando Health is cutting jobs?
From the Business Journals in Orlando – http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/blog/2012/11/orlando-health-job-cuts-hate-to-say-i.html
“In this fiscal year, Orlando Health took a $59 million cut in Medicaid payments, or 20 percent of its $216 million total Medicaid payment. In fiscal year 2013, that cut will grow an additional $8 million to $67 million.”
So, who is responsible for the Medicaid cuts in Florida that resulted in this reduction and resulted in the job cuts???
THE FLORIDA LEGISLATORS!
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/July/25/medicaid-cuts.aspx
“Florida cut funding to hospitals that treat Medicaid patients by 5.6 percent – following a 12.5 percent cut a year ago. The state is also seeking permission to limit non-pregnant adults to two primary care visits a month unless they are pregnant, and to cap emergency room coverage at six visits a year.”
So, Florida needed to balance their budget – in doing so, they cut funding to hospitals, which killed profits, is now leading to job losses…and now crazy right wing fringe groups are saying is the fault of Health Care Reform?
Ummm, yeah, right.
Shall I go on? Should we look at the next hospital that was posted? Or what article should we look at next?
Mary -
One clarification – the article that links the 93,000 figure to the AHA was originally posted by you.
I’m really more interested in this A-Ha.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djV11Xbc914
EGV,
Uh EGV, the point is the original article I posted did not name or source the AHA, as you say it did. You found an article that sourced the AHA. Fine. Where did the AHA get it? Maybe the sources all got it from an original source.
My original article did not source the AHA as you say it did. Period.
Furthermore I gave you sources that show how these layoffs are related to Obamacare and its destruction of Medicare, slashing of funding, and layoffs. One by an expert on Obamacare, someone who actually read the entire bill. I hope you finally got around to reading it.
Mary -
Dec 2 – 6:27 – you posted an article in support of the 93,000 figure that linked it to the AHA, which says the 93,000 is NOT from reform.
Furthermore, you gave me sources of hospitals cutting staff. I’ve already clearly shown how the first one is the fault of the GOP in Florida.
What else do you want me to read, and why does it matter if you are fully admitting that you don’t care about the actual facts and sources of numbers? You are fine taking a completely false number and running with it. Or you are too stubborn to admit it. What other articles do you want me to debunk so that you can ignore it and live in your own little shell of lies? Just let me know.
Never been so disappointed in you. I know we disagree – but for you to post out a number, then get shown the number is wrong – and for you to not own up to it. Really disappointing.
Ex-RINO, how many doctors is our government hiring to care for the millions of people Obamacare is forcing onto medicare?
“Never been so disappointed in you. I know we disagree – but for you to post out a number, then get shown the number is wrong – and for you to not own up to it. Really disappointing.”
@Ex-GOP
This surprises you?
Ex-GOP, you’re to be commended for your fact checking–I learn something new every time I read you–but do you really think these people care about facts?
I’ve watched the exchanges here. Every time you call them out on a fact, they simply throw you another curveball, another canard. Frankly, I think you’re wasting your time here. I know I’ve said that before but, hey, it’s your life. I just think–I know–there are other forums that would genuinely appreciate your contribution. You’d probably get more out of it as well.
I appreciate Ex’s posts, even when I don’t agree.
t*seeker
The government generally doesn’t hire doctors -you could make the case that a VA doctor is a government doctor, but medicare patients are treated by regular medical facilities – they go down the street to the same place you and I go to, and get services. The medical facility does the hiring – not the government. Did you really not know that?
Please also give me the profile of one person being forced onto medicare.
mp -
Thanks – I appreciate it.
Do you have other boards you’d recommend?
I just don’t know where else though a father of three that goes to church weekly and values life can get berated, belittled, called the devil, called lost, and called stupid by the faith-community, primarily because I think that poor people should get healthcare like the rest of us…I mean, that reputation was hard earned!
Do you have other boards you’d recommend?
Absolutely!
Econ blogs like econbrowser.com, nakedcapitalism.com and baselinescenario.com have very frequent discussions on health care policy. They are people like you, who actually know what they’re talking about.
These discussions make fascinating reading because there’s little doubt that some of the people involved are quite likely involved in the policy process. They don’t care who you are, so long as you come to the table armed with facts and well-reasoned positions. It’s intellectually challenging and I think you’d enjoy it.
Anyway, they cover a broad range of topics, health care is just one of many. Check it out!
Don’t let it get you down, Ex. I’m an anti-Christian, slandering, fornicating, terrible person because… I dont even know why. Because I exist apparently. People are mean sometimes. I always look forward to your posts and I don’t like it when people attack your character rather than what your posting, I find it annoying.
But anyway if you decide to not comment here anymore I wish you well, I just wanted to make sure you know not everyone on this blog thinks you are evil and the devil because you like Obama’s health care policies lol.
^Why is my last comment in moderation?
EGV,
Let’s take this a step at a time. My original post, the one you claimed quoted the AHA
http://www.visiontoamerica.com/13128/obama-care-fallout-hospitals-will-see-massive-layoffs-decline-in-2013/
As you can see the article makes no mention of the AHA, nor does it directly quote them, as you claimed it did. It gives only the number 93,0000, and states these layoffs result from Obamacare. It does not quote the AHA saying that. If the original source on this number ia the AHA, fine, no dispute there.
Now as for Orlando, not all sources agree as to why the layoffs are occuring but this one does have a quote from the CEO.
http://jhpolitics.com/2012/11/obamacare-forces-orlando-health-layoffs/
Also an interesting article as to why businesses and hospitals will be facing layoffs because of Obamacare.
http://www.redstate.com/jeremyintucson/2012/11/26/obamacare-is-destroying-america/
Now the article by the expert on Obamacare, a Ph.d who actually read the entire bill, I’m sure that’s a rare breed, and how Obamacare is forcing hospitals into debt, thus forcing severe cost cutting measures, i.e. layoffs. Also, you will be shocked to discover how our senior citizens have been targetted by Obamacare enforced medicare cuts that force hospitals to take drastic measures.
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/dems_medicare_lie_wb01zVcMLe4iVNhNy3qGJP
These sources back up the claim of my original source, who never quoted the AHA except for a number, that massive hospital layoffs are the result of Obamacare.
Now should we be surprised the Dear Leader wants all this Obamacare generated unempoyment? Not at all, since it forces more people into a government run single payer sytem. And we know that is what the Dear Leader wants, right?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE
Oh and EGV, in addition to all thia happy news the IRS just added 159 new pages of rules concerning taxing for Obamacare. All this low cost/free care ain’t cheap.
mp – thanks – I’ll check those out.
Jack – not going anywhere else soon – I still have to try to convince Mary that everything you read on the internet isn’t true…
Okay good Ex. Sunday Funnies might be boring otherwise. :)
You are right about the Florida job losses. It’s been an issue from funding cuts for a while, they talk about it all the time down here, it’s a big kerfuffle. I am actually surprised anyone is trying to blame it on Obamacare when it’s demonstrably not. It’s been going on for quite a while.
I’m okay with the right slurring Health Care Reform – but you think they could at least agree on the lies and coordinate better.
One day, I hear it is a giveaway to the medical industry. Next day, it is causing job losses at medical institutions.
Then I hear medicare is unsustainable and needs cuts. Next day, the GOP is yelling that reform is cutting medicare.
It really baffles me. There’s plenty of legit things to attack reform over – pick those! But all I see is misinformation and downright lies.
I mean, in this thread alone, there’s been roughly a dozen downright lies.
EGV,
Would please name those dozen downright lies?
Jack,
My 7:39 post was also in moderation. That happens at times for reasons I don’t know.
Jack,
Check out my source on the Orlando cuts in my 7:39 post. Also the lady Ph.d. Better explain the massive cuts going on.
My apologies Jack,
The link no longer works. Google “Betsy McCaughey medicare cuts” and you should find the article “Obamacare’s cruel cuts to senior care” in the NY times. Interestng and frightening article that explains how Obamacare targets seniors, and causes hospital layoffs.
Great now the link is working again. Oh well, if it quits again, you know where to find it.
The downright lies of this thread:
1) Mary suggesting that the 93,000 job cuts were a result of Health Care Reform. She conveyed this mistake with her first post about it. She turned it into a lie when presented with evidence, and continued to stand behind the number.
2) The continued suggestion that reform is the key reason for the cuts in Orlando. The article I posted clearly laid out how their profit had turned into a loss because of medicaid cuts, which were controlled by the Florida legislative branch. The ceo confirmed this essentially by talking about the changes in medicaid/medicare – confirmed in the article that I posted. As a side note, Orlando Health is moving forward with $350 million in expansions and acquisitions…so all must not be lost there.
3) Truth indicated that those who can’t afford health insurance will be thrown into a medicare expansion. This is actually two lies in one – first, those who can’t afford it either get medicaid coverage, or get waivers, depending on their incomes. Second, they don’t get put onto medicare. Let’s count it as one lie though.
4) Truth said taxes will go up on everyone. Completely unsubstantiated.
5) Truth said that Obama hasn’t passed a budget. Presidents don’t pass budgets.
6) Hans indicated a plurality of people were against health care reform – he later pulled back that assertion after being challenged.
7) Hans indicated a plurality of people were against raising taxes as part of the deficit reduction talks. This has been shown in many recent polls to be false.
8) McCaughey, by the way, has a PhD in history – and is primarily known because she was a loud critic of the Clinton healthcare bill and the most recent one as well through posting articles that have been largely debunked. She ran with the whole idea of “death panels” and Politifact gave an article on the 2009 reform bill a “pants on fire”. If you’d like to read more on the falsehoods of McCaughey, here you go: http://www.tnr.com/blog/jonathan-cohn/87493/ryan-mccaughey-medicare-voucher-ipab-ration
9) Lastly (I’m not going to keep reading through to hit a full dozen) – while it isn’t quite a lie, I do fully enjoy how you discount the AHA because they supported Obama, and as your sources, you’ve used:
– Betsy McCaughey – one of the most biased, slanted individuals out there.
– RedState
– Vision to America – a right wing blog
Lovely
Politifact? As you say, not everything you read on the internet is true. By the way, my two “lies” were truths in poll after poll up until the election. And at that time, there was still a majority who didn’t want tax hikes on anyone as a purported means to “fix” the deficit.
But the Party of Envy won them over for other, more vile reasons. Not to solve anything economically, just to plain “stick it to the Man.”
Lovely.
So Hans – you are saying I shouldn’t be able to find polls before the election that support health care reform in general, or raising taxes on the rich as part of a general deficit plan – is that what you are saying?
No, EGOP, I’m sure you can find a poll that says anything, and so can I. As they say, the only poll that counts is the one on Election Day. The majority decided to overlook a first term that was at turns mediocre and pregnant with future disaster. Peachy keen.
Now all I can hope for is gridlock for four years. This is not a Clinton we have who cared about his legacy as perceived by all, not just his base.
EGV,
LOL
1. Mary made no such claim. My source did. You apparently had a problem with reading comprehension when you claimed the article quoted the AHA, which it did not. It didn’t even mention the AHA.
2. I gave you a link where even the CEO says its because of “Health care mandates”. What do you suppose those are EGV? Why do you suppose medicare was cut? To pay for Obamacare.
http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/obamacare-raids-medicare-and-makes-off-with-716-billion/
3.Truth will have to speak for him/herself on this one. I can’t make sense of it.
4.Truth may be on to something here
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ashleaebeling/2012/06/28/obamacares-7-tax-hikes-on-under-250000-a-year-earners/
5.Well yes and no. He is the first president to have not had a budget passed in his first term. His first was voted down 97-0, obviously by Democrats as well as Republicans.
6.Hans is spot on. The majority of Americans have consistently opposed Obamacare
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/health_care_law
7. Hans may be wrong on this one
8.Betsy McCaughey is a former New York state lieutenant governor who interestingly sought the Democrat nomination for governor. Her resume and background is so impressive I’ll just let you review it yourself.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betsy_McCaughey
8. Well EGV, facts are facts. The AHA did support Obamacare and received concessions along with Big Pharma
You may not like my sources, however that doesn’t make them wrong.
Oh and EGV, if you can’t produce a dozen lies, you shouldn’t claim that you can.
Hi Hans,
If you can back up your claim about the taxes, then my apologies. I tried and couldn’t find any sources.
Hi Mary,
I linked to this at my December 2, 5:16 comment:
http://www.nysun.com/national/little-noticed-exit-poll-finds-63-saying-no/88069/
Here’s another little-noticed poll. It depends on how one asks the question.
ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Nov. 21-25, 2012. N=1,016 adults nationwide. Margin of error ± 3.5.
“Overall, do you support or oppose raising taxes on incomes over 250 thousand dollars a year?”
Support
Oppose
Unsure
%
%
%
ALL
60
37
3
Democrats
73
26
1
Republicans
39
59
2
Independents
63
33
4
Ex-RINO,
1) How many people are being added to medicare rolls due to Obamacare? How many of those people were part-time workers previously covered by private insurers? Answer – millions.
2) Private doctors are already refusing to take medicare patients due to price fixing etc. These doctors will have to come from somewhere. If the government doesn’t hire them to treat these millions of new medicare enrollees then where will these doctors come from?
Truth
1) Zero
2) The government still doesn’t hire doctors
Mary – disappointed in you
1) You post an article, you are essentially saying you stand behind what was posted. Simply dishonest to say otherwise.
2) The CEO said mandates and changes to structure were making them do business differently. The reason they lost money from the year before, as clearly laid out in the article I posted, was the medicaid cuts.
3) I can’t make sense of much of what t*seeker says
4) If you agree on the taxes, you are just as dumb as he/she is. Even in your article, you’re talking about small subsets of people – not everyone. Do you understand what ‘everyone’ is?
5) What do you mean “yes and no”. Do Presidents pass budgets? Can Obama just put anything in place he wants this afternoon?
6) Ah, Rasmussen reports again! Can’t trust them… The polls have been generally split over the last year plus http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2012/06/30/US-evenly-split-on-healthcare-reform/UPI-95321341035541/
7) K
8) Did you read through the whole wiki page? And she’s been a Republican, Democrat, Republican again, and a health care hack the whole time. Did you read the article I posted?
9) You have two number 8’s. I just want to know though, do only you get to use biased sources?
The 93,000 number is about 10 lies wrapped up into one – I’ve just never seen a person post a number without a backing to it, and then when shown the backing, refuse to even consider it. Dishonest. Disappointing. You are sliding down into t*seeker territory here.
EGV,
Its obvious that facts and sources that back them up only generate more confusion for you, or that you are just so blind in your devotion to the Dear Leader that you can’t bring yourself to acknowledge what Obamacare is really about.
That greatly disappoints me in you.
@Ex-GOP
I can’t bear to watch. Show some mercy.
One thrust only. :)
Ex-RINO said:
Zero
I am guessing you responded that way because I had mistakenly used the term medicare instead of medicaid. Cause we both know that Obamacare is actually forcing seniors off of medicare with price fixing that is keeping doctors from taking medicare patient.
Let me pharse it again for you. Obamacare forces millions onto the state medicaid rolls and private physicians are already refusing to see medicaid patients. Jack has attested to the fact that he already has trouble finding doctors who will see him. I was looking at how much harder it will be for Jack and people on mediciad to find doctors when millions more are placed on medicaid. You are saying the government has no plans to hire doctors to cover these patients. That doesn;t sound like very good planning to me. If the government isn’t providing doctors to treat these people then where will they go for help?
^Small correction truth. I have trouble finding a doctor because I am very poor and don’t have any insurance, I don’t have Medicaid. I can’t find doctors who will bill me for the visit and let me make payments, they just refuse to see me and I end up having to go to the ER. My situation doesn’t have much to do with Medicaid, it has to do with what it’s like living in poverty and no one really caring whether you get healthcare or not.
I can’t make sense of much of what t*seeker says
Ex-RINO
The fact that you can’t make sense of something that is posted to you is considered the ‘norm’. You are interminably ‘obtuse’ and have shown a propensity to dodge and deflect when you are faced with truths that show the weaknesses in your arguments. I am almost certain you won’t directly respond to the doctor shortage issue I brought up cause you have a proven propensity to avoid posting responses. I don’t think you really have as much a problem of ‘making sense’ of what people post to you or a lack of understanding. Rather you choose not to honestly address anything that might go against the agenda you like to push.
Jack, Have you ever tried taking advantage of medicaid instead of using the ER? At your income level you and your children should be eligible already. Once Obamacare kicks in it will only get harder for you to find a practice (doctors) so you might want to find one now and grandfather in.
What about your children Jack? Do you have a doctor who see’s them or do they go to the ER too?
My kids are on state insurance, truthseeker. They have been for a couple years. The only problem with that is that prescription coverage is abysmal. Even with insurance my son’s asthma and allergy meds are over 200 a month. My ex-wife doesn’t pay me child support, I agreed to not ask for child support, in our divorce settlement her only financial responsibility is paying for his meds. It works.
I have been on the waiting list to get on state insurance since my divorce, since I only have my income to claim and I have full custody of the kids, so I finally qualified. I don’t know though. I know a lot of people seem to think that poor people just can’t wait to take public assistance but I absolutely hate it. I’ve never taken food stamps, never had housing, never had energy assistance or cash assistance. I don’t like taking assistance but I am pretty much at the end of my rope here.
Jack, You are on a waiting list for medicaid now so the doctor shortage I was referring to does in fact very much apply to your current situation. It will mean longer waits to see doctors when Obamacare kicks in unless they do something about the doctor shortage problem I was addressing in my 5:48pm post to Ex-RINO .
Hi Jack,
I am saddened to hear of your troubles. Never assume that when I criticize people who think the world owes them and are standing in line for a handout, that I put you and others like you in the same category. I have also struggled from paycheck to paycheck, dealt with unexpected sickness, my husband became diabetic when I was in post grad school, and been at the end of my rope as well so I am definitely NOT unsympathetic. Life throws some terrible curveballs.
It seems odd your wife is not obligated to pay support. Were the situation turned around wouldn’t you be expected to? She certainly owes that to her children.
I hear ya about the wanting to be self-reliant Jack. One of the other big downsides to Obamacare is that it makes it illegal for you to fend for yourself by purchasing inexpensive insurance policies. The minimum policies offered under Obamacare are ‘valued’ at about 12k annually cause the law mandates everybody’s policy must include things like no lifetime caps, maternity care and free birth control. The law makes it almost impossible for low income people to fend for themselves and stay off the government tit even if they wanted to.
Truth I am not on the waiting list for Medicaid, I am for my state’s insurance. The way I see it, I have paid state taxes, so if I go on state insurance at least I have put something into the state with taxes. I have never paid federal taxes, so I hate the thought of depending on a federal program when I have never paid any taxes for it. I don’t deserve Medicaid. Plus, I am young and fairly healthy, there are people who have more need of Medicaid that I would rather get it instead of me.
You are wrong about Obamacare limiting my options for healthcare like that. I am too poor to pay any fines if I can’t get insurance, whether I manage to get coverage or not I am not going to be penalized for it, I simply don’t make enough money. I fall well below the line of income where I would penalized, and I don’t see that changing any time.
Mary, I don’t think you are judging me personally when you make statements about those who take “handouts”, but your statements tend to be sweeping and it’s hard not to take offense. It’s the same thing with most GOP politicians, they make me mad. I suppose I am one of the “good” poor people who aren’t one of those lazy, stupid, terrible people who guys go on about. But still, it seems as though a lot of you tend to judge us all about the same. I live in a very low income neighborhood, half of us don’t have jobs, and the ones like me who actually have a job still are well below the poverty line. I only know one or two that I consider “lazy”. It seems like the GOP has a severe lack of compassion and a lot of judgment for us who belong to the working poor. That’s why I take so much offense to the “47%” type of comments.
I agreed to let my wife not pay child support because I didn’t want her to fight for custody. She agreed to let me have custody if I agreed not to fight for support. It’s hard for men to win full custody, and I decided to have less money and have my kids in a safe home with me, rather than fight for child support and end up losing to her.
Hi Jack,
My apologies. I have long encountered too many people who think the world owes them, people who can only spout F- this and F-that and F-you when I am trying to help them, for free, cared for pregnant girls with more tattoos than the US 7th fleet, mouths like truck drivers, playing on their I-pads while the father of THIS kid is passed out drunk on the couch in her room. I’ve had to reprimand more than a few about their mouths. I don’t believe I have to put up with that kind of abuse.
Then there was the co worker who it was discovered was ripping off welfare to the tune of thousands. Biggest fraud in our county so far. I suppose that helped explain her designer purses and diamond ring.
So when I refer to “handouts” its these individuals and others like them. I shouldn’t assume people understand that. I know I bitterly resented being told by my post grad director how easy I had it. I thought ”yeah you dumb p—-, you know WHAT about my life?
So I am not unsympathetic to people who are truly struggling. I have a problem with people who are standing in line for “free” money and saying they no longer need to pay their mortgage or gas because Obama was elected.
As I have said I am an Independent, but its been my life experience that its the “help” of “compassionate” Democrats over the years, a great example is LBJ’s “war on poverty” that has done more to create and trap people into lives of poverty, family breakdown, and dependency. For example, in the early 60’s black Americans were a growing middle class who contributed I believe a billion or so to the economy, and 78-85% of black children lived in two parent homes. Enter the “war on poverty” in 1965 and the rest is history, so many black conservatives maintain.
I know it is difficult for men to get custody, but it sure seems like your wife got the better end of this deal. You’d think she’d have no other option but apparently that’s not the case. At one time, the mother having custody was a given, no matter how unfit.
It sounds like your children are indeed blessed that you are their father, and that you are the custodial parent.
“My apologies. I have long encountered too many people who think the world owes them, people who can only spout F- this and F-that and F-you when I am trying to help them, for free, cared for pregnant girls with more tattoos than the US 7th fleet, mouths like truck drivers, playing on their I-pads while the father of THIS kid is passed out drunk on the couch in her room. I’ve had to reprimand more than a few about their mouths. I don’t believe I have to put up with that kind of abuse.”
Lol well I have five tattoos but I got them when I was a drug dealer and I had plenty of money. I swear a lot too (I never swear at people though, I just have a filthy mouth, it’s a bad habit)! It does make me sad that if I needed food stamps people would judge me based on that. Sometimes people’s circumstances change. But yeah, I am sure you have met your share of people who are simply wanting something for nothing. It’s just I think it’s unfair whenever welfare, food stamps, or low income healthcare comes up on this blog, the first thing that the conservatives go for is the lazy handout seekers. What about us that never had much of a chance to begin with? It’s like we are never mentioned, but poor people in general are stereotyped as lazy freebie seekers a lot. I would just like it if people I respect like you and others on this blog would take that into account a little more when making statements about “entitlements”.
It kinds of reminds me of this lady I saw in front of me in line at the grocery store a few months ago. She had foodstamps, and she was buying some good healthy food, like beans and rice and such, but she was also buying stuff like cake, ice cream, and candy and soda. I helped her pack her food into her car since she had her four kids with her, and she told me she she knew people were judging her for buying stuff like that on foodstamps, but her twins had never had a birthday party with cake before, so she just had to give them a nice birthday just once. I felt bad for her and told her I didn’t dream of judging her for it. I think some people should remember that appearances aren’t everything, you don’t know what’s going on in someone’s life.
Oh yeah, my wife got out of the marriage easy, especially since I could have had her in jail for some stuff. I don’t care though, I am just glad to be free and have my kids with me. She can do whatever she wants.
“You are wrong about Obamacare limiting my options for healthcare like that.”
Jack, it will indeed effect your health care choices and your ability to find doctors. For instance the waiting lists will only get longer when Obamacare kicks in and Florida has several hundred thousand more people to care for. Not only from a doctor shortage standpoint but also Florida will have less funds available to their “state” insurance problem because the state will be on the hook for 10% of the additional medicaid cost for hundreds of thousands of additional people that Obamacare places on the medicaid rolls. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this?
Jack, I really think conservatives are a lot more worried about the government waste end of the problem. If somebody walked up and down the street tossing hundreds and saying, “Free money!” I wouldn’t be too proud to pick up some.
We point out the anecdotes of food stamps for filet mignons or booze and cigarettes not so much to denigrate the poor, but to demand more responsibility from government.
Conservatives don’t care what people do with their money – no matter how they got it. Just how the bureaucrats waste everyone’s money. The judgment on the poor and rich is pretty even, and not really the point.
Hi Jack,
LOL, I have a tattoo as well. I have no problems with tattoos. I have a problem with people who make it their priority over their other financial responsibilities. Friends of ours who have money for dogs, tattoos, drugs, booze, cigarettes legal and illegal, but have almost lost their house, which they inherited at no cost, because they didn’t pay their property tax. I assume you wouldn’t be cursing like a truckdriver at someone trying to help you, especially when it didn’t cost you.
No I wouldn’t judge you based on that, I would judge on what your priorities are.
I forgot to mention the large city hospital I worked at with its wards full of welfare queens, now before you get mad, these charming ladies made NO secret of the fact their pregnancies were not accidents, and these were their 2+ ones. Well why not, the taxpayer was footing the bill. Where were their fathers? You ARE being funny, right?
Please keep in mind my years and experiences and the jading that comes with them and hopefully you will understand exactly who I am referring to. Also I donate to local charities that I know assist people that are truly in need, and do it very efficiently, and am very happy to do so, and am in charge of a charity collection at our church which helps people here and abroad. Obviously I have no problem with people who need help getting it.
I am not looking for a round of applause, just pointing out that I am happy to help anyone legitimately in need of help and do not judge those who need it.
I have a problem with people who think they are owed something.
Time to catch up on posts for the day.
Mary – I love your post at 8:44am.
You posted an article that literally had no source of a number. No source. None. Zero. Zilch.
So pretty please, don’t lecture me on facts.
“Oh, 93,000 jobs are going to be lost. According to this right wing blog! Yes, I will close my mind and start typing - who cares where the numbers came from!?!”
Seriously Mary. You are like Fred Phelps lecturing somebody on being tolerant.
You posted an article with no source, and now are saying I have an issue with facts and sources.
I just threw up in my mouth a little…
t*seeker -
You are right – you, more than once, mistakingly put Medicare instead of Medicaid. They are two different systems.
You have also, more than once, talked about the government hiring doctors. Maybe you should call your House member and say we need a bill for the government to hire more doctors. Would love to see the response.
Jack lives in Florida. Florida balanced their budget by slashing medicaid reimbursement rates. That is the issue. Florida would not have as much of an issue if they had raised taxes instead of slashing medicaid. Do you think they should have raised taxes? What is your solution for the issue in Florida, their tax woes, and medicaid?
t*seeker -
Your 5:19 post – Mary actually asked said she can’t make sense of what you say. I agree 100% with her. It doesn’t help when you can’t seem to figure out the difference between Medicare and Medicaid in your posts, which makes it confusing to figure out your arguments. It also doesn’t help that you think the government hires doctors. It also doesn’t help that you don’t understand waiver and income requirements. It also doesn’t help that you don’t understand medicaid funding issues. It also doesn’t help that you are clueless as to what the differences are between the executive and legislative branch. It also doesn’t help that you are clueless in regards to taxes.
So yes, I agree with Mary – I can’t make sense of about half of your posts.
I would recommend rereading them before you hit “add comment” – and double check that your sentences are actually sentences, that you have the right programs listed, and that you know what you are talking about. That would help.
Jack -
An error in t*seekers post. Of course.
Florida rejected the medicaid expansion. It would have expanded the number of people who could be on medicaid, and for the first couple of years, would have paid 100%. After that, the feds would pay 90%. Instead, Florida will stay away, and those people who don’t have the federal coverage will go to the ER anyways since health issues simply happen – and Florida will pay for it other ways. Unfortunately, Florida isn’t shifting to a focus on preventative care – they want emergency care.
I pray and hope you end up in another state one day!
“Jack, it will indeed effect your health care choices and your ability to find doctors. For instance the waiting lists will only get longer when Obamacare kicks in and Florida has several hundred thousand more people to care for. Not only from a doctor shortage standpoint but also Florida will have less funds available to their “state” insurance problem because the state will be on the hook for 10% of the additional medicaid cost for hundreds of thousands of additional people that Obamacare places on the medicaid rolls. Why are you having such a hard time understanding this?”
Truth, first off, Florida will only pay 10% of the costs of the extended Medicaid after I think two years. This will be about .016% of our annual budget. We have had this huge problem with our budget being severely unbalanced since before Obama was in office. I was on the waiting list for state insurance when I was eighteen, six years ago. I never ended up getting insurance, and ended up taking myself off of the list when I got a job with basic insurance. Unfortunately, I lost that insurance when my boss cut my hours to just below full time so he wouldn’t have to give me benefits anymore.
Florida already has those several thousand people to care for. They are already either clogging up the ERs for things like strep throat, or on the waiting list for Medicaid or state insurance. These people aren’t suddenly appearing when Obamacare extends the Medicaid rolls. They are already uninsured or underinsured, and our state is already suffering for it. The federal government under Obamacare is covering 100% of the cost of the new Medicaid enrollment for the first I think two years (can’t remember the exact amount of years). Now, before the election, our GOP government rejected the Medicaid expansion, but Florida voters did vote to go along with it I believe, I can’t remember the bill’s exact wording.
It’s just I don’t see how Obamacare is making my situation worse. These thousands of people already exist. They are already getting healthcare in the most expensive way possible, which is the ER and then not being able to pay the bill, which means our government and the hospitals are stuck with the bill, and insured people and taxpayers end up footing it all.
It’s just that Obamacare isn’t making these people exist, they already exist and it’s already been causing Florida a lot of problems for years.
Jack -
Because I know you’ll read it…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/medicaid-expansion-gop-governors_n_1775973.html
The real kicker here is that the “pro-life” conservatives on this board are excited that states are rejecting the medicaid expansion. Medicaid mostly goes to the elderly and the disabled. The income level for Florida is 11K for a family of 3 – so somebody making 15K is not eligible for medicaid. Unbelievable.
So the “pro-life” conservatives say “how dare people abort a child who is going to have disabilities”, and then in the next breath, are fighting against funding for people with disabilities – fighting against health care coverage, nursing homes – things paid for by medicaid.
It’s a joke really – a really sick joke. And I’m a terrible pro-lifer…who would guess? Maybe if I worked against the disabled more…
“Jack, I really think conservatives are a lot more worried about the government waste end of the problem. If somebody walked up and down the street tossing hundreds and saying, “Free money!” I wouldn’t be too proud to pick up some.”
If conservatives are worried about the government waste end of it, then why isn’t that their main complaint? I hear a LOT about poor people and our entitled attitudes and how we are bleeding the country dry. I don’t hear much about corporate welfare. I don’t hear much about wasting billions on useless wars. I hear about poor people and how they want stuff.
Lol I would probably pick up the money too, I wouldn’t be happy about it though. :)
“Conservatives don’t care what people do with their money – no matter how they got it. Just how the bureaucrats waste everyone’s money. The judgment on the poor and rich is pretty even, and not really the point.”
That’s not true. The judgment on the rich is nowhere near how the poor get judged. I haven’t heard conservatives complain about company CEOs give themselves million dollar bonuses when they have tax credits every year, but I hear complaints about how sometimes people on welfare smoke a joint to relieve themselves of the stress of crushing poverty.
This stuff hurts my soul Hans!
Mary, I know that you care about people genuinely in need. I just have a strong reaction to conservatives in general constantly, constantly complaining about the people at the bottom of the totem pole, but I never hear anything about the CEOs and government officials that are cheating and bleeding the country dry. It’s just tiring.
I know you are a caring person and you have seen a lot of bad people, but I have seen a lot too even if I am a lot younger than you, and I have been on the receiving end of assumptions and judgements my entire life, and it gets old. I’ve tried to keep myself from drowning in poverty without asking for help from anyone, but you never hear conservatives talking about people like me. You hear about lazy, entitled poor people almost exclusively.
And I think it’s funny that you are upset about ladies wanting to have more babies, when there was a post today complaining that people aren’t having enough kids!! Lol, it’s just funny.
“I pray and hope you end up in another state one day!”
Oh I can only hope, Ex. My legislators apparently don’t care what happens to me, maybe another state’s politicians would at least pretend to. :)
That article makes me want to scream. Dude, I make 19K a year, give or take. Has anyone tried to raise two kids with no help from family by yourself on that, without taking assistance? It’s so close to being impossible that’s it’s constant stress (which is going to end up destroying my mental health if not physical). I really am not trying to whine about my life, but it’s freaking tough to constantly be worried that if you miss a day of work or get sick again that you will be homeless or won’t be able to eat.
“So the “pro-life” conservatives say “how dare people abort a child who is going to have disabilities”, and then in the next breath, are fighting against funding for people with disabilities – fighting against health care coverage, nursing homes – things paid for by medicaid.”
Exactly, that’s what I don’t understand either. It’s terrible. It’s like the post today complaining that Americans don’t want more kids. Why would some of us want more kids if this is how life is gonna be? I mean, I never wanted kids in the first place, for many reasons but economic reasons were a lot of my concerns. Now that I have them I definitely don’t regret having my children at all, but I don’t blame anyone one bit for being scared to have children. I wouldn’t ever have wanted my wife to abort, ever, but I can see why some women (especially a single mom) would abort out of fear of not being able to provide.
Uh EGV,
Its 9:44am and I’m glad you liked it. If I do say so myself it summed up things well.
You just threw up in your mouth a little? Be careful not to choke.
Jack, 9:05PM
I’m not complaining about the ladies having more babies, I’m complaining that they feel no sense of responsibility, nor do the fathers, to support them.
Also Jack, before you complain about conservatives, do you think its the poverty, dependency, and government programs created by the Democrats that are creating the situation we now face with forced cutbacks?
I pointed out, and black conservatives concur, that black families were better off before the gov’t “helped”.
Hi Jack,
I agree that being on the receiving end of assumptions and judgments is frustrating, but sadly a fact of life. Maybe some people haven’t appreciated your assumptions and judgments either. We are certainly all guilty, myself very much included.
Only thing to do is the best we can and hold our heads up because people will always have opinions, whether you want to listen to them or not. I have to laugh because people at work respect the fact I don’t talk about anyone. I’ve learned the hard way the less I know and say, the better. And people like it too. :)
Rushbo just figured out that his taxes are going up and he’s not a happy camper.
Today, he’s declaring that food stamp and unemployment benefit recipients are “slovenly.” Got that? Slovenly.
BWAHAHAHA! I’m now absolutely convinced that Rushbo is working a false flag operation for Obama. BWAHAHA!
Rush, keep talking!
http://mediamatters.org/video#watch/191697/page/1
“I’m not complaining about the ladies having more babies, I’m complaining that they feel no sense of responsibility, nor do the fathers, to support them.”
That can be a problem. Single parenthood happens a lot at the lower income levels, and single parenthood is strongly associated with poverty. There are some people who take advantage of welfare supporting children to pop out babies and expect the government to take care of them, sure. And there are far too many men who don’t feel like they need to stick around when they get someone pregnant. I would also wager this problem is strongly tied to abortion rates as well.
Like I said on the “We Need More Babies” post, there is a culture of poverty, with children being raised in single parent households with people who don’t know how to handle finances, and emulating what they are seeing. Now, all people aren’t like this. But the ones that are, and I have seen some, seem to come from families where that is all they ever knew. I can relate to that, all I ever knew from childhood was abuse, so I got myself into a toxic wreck of an abusive marriage at age nineteen. It’s what I was taught, that life was like that. People are going to do as they are taught as a child, it takes a strong person to be able to fight that and not everyone can do it. I don’t exactly know how to counteract this culture of poverty and this vicious cycle, but I do know that shaming and just suddenly cutting off any support isn’t going to do it.
“Also Jack, before you complain about conservatives, do you think its the poverty, dependency, and government programs created by the Democrats that are creating the situation we now face with forced cutbacks?”
I don’t know, I haven’t studied much about what the culture and economics were like in the fifties, I don’t know what caused us to get to this point. I know that you can’t put a genie back in the bottle though, so we need to move forward and look at the situation and what we can do about it realistically.
Hi Jack,
Well, I’m telling you for a fact, and you can check what black conservatives like Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams have to say, that the black family and community was strong and prospering before the government “anti-poverty” programs of the mid sixties.
Yes, definitely a connection between between family breakdown and poverty. Also a connection between government “help” and more dependency, waste, family and community breakdown, and billions wasted. I think that’s what got us to this point.
During the fight to legalize abortion, which I remember well, the battle cry was it would eliminate poverty and child abuse. So far it has failed miserably to do either.
mp 9:35PM
Come on now mp, as I recall I had to call you out one time on your use of the term “trailer trash”, which does strike me as elitist and bigoted.
Rush fits my use of the term “trailer trash” perfectly.
Rush is trailer trash.
mp,
So people who reside in trailer parks are trash? Such intolerance.
“I agree that being on the receiving end of assumptions and judgments is frustrating, but sadly a fact of life. Maybe some people haven’t appreciated your assumptions and judgments either. We are certainly all guilty, myself very much included.”
Oh, I’m definitely no saint. I have been a judgmental a-hole a lot in the past and I still struggle with making assumptions about people to this day. I used to judge all Christians extremely harshly, I still judge people I see as “rich” too harshly, and I have my biases and stupidity that I haven’t been able to quite overcome. It’s part of being human to do this stuff and we all have to work on it.
It’s just that I think judging the lower income classes in the US so harshly is, besides being fairly cruel to a group of people who mostly didn’t have a good shot at life to begin with, is that I think it fosters hopelessness. I saw it when I was a drug addict and dealer, people thought I was a POS and worthless and hopeless, and so I never thought much of myself and never saw the point of getting out of the situation I was in. I am sure people on assistance see what people in general think of them and it makes it quite difficult to get the motivation to change. Some people react to harsh criticism with stubbornness and wanting to prove people wrong, others just give up and accept that they suck. I think that we can encourage people to better themselves without treating them like they are subhuman.
“Yes, definitely a connection between between family breakdown and poverty. Also a connection between government “help” and more dependency, waste, family and community breakdown, and billions wasted. I think that’s what got us to this point.”
Well, I think that there is a line between government help that actually helps and government help that fosters dependency. I like welfare to work programs, I think that training people in careers, training them how to handle finances, parenting classes, marriage counseling, and teaching them how to feed themselves healthy food while not having much money are all excellent ways to still help people while not encouraging dependency. I also think that tax credits are a good idea for lower income parents, because to get the credits you have to work.
“During the fight to legalize abortion, which I remember well, the battle cry was it would eliminate poverty and child abuse. So far it has failed miserably to do either.”
True that. Don’t mistake my feeling sympathy towards poor women who feel like abortion will get them out of a tough spot with agreeing with that decision or thinking it actually helps.
“Truth, first off, Florida will only pay 10% of the costs of the extended Medicaid after I think two years. This will be about .016% of our annual budget. We have had this huge problem with our budget being severely unbalanced since before Obama was in office. I was on the waiting list for state insurance when I was eighteen, six years ago. I never ended up getting insurance, and ended up taking myself off of the list when I got a job with basic insurance. Unfortunately, I lost that insurance when my boss cut my hours to just below full time so he wouldn’t have to give me benefits anymore.”
Jack, How much does your state currently spend on the state insurance plan? If you state has to spend $300 million annualy on new Obamacare enrollees then that is 300 million dollars they won’t have for the state insurance plan. Where do you people get this endless penchant to deflect blame for everything bad Obama by bringing up that he inherited problems when he took office. Understand that even if something is bad each persons action can either make the situation worse or better. Sheesh.
You don’t seem to want to admit that Obamacare will have any negative effects on you so lets look at from somebody elses situation. How about the 26 year old Walmart employee who stocks shelves on the graveyard shift because he hates taking handouts. Now because of Obamatax he getting his hours cut and losing his private health insurance. It could justy as easily be you. How about standing up for him? If you really were the independent minded self-sufficient person you claim to be then that would make you mad as hell. There are thousands of low income Floridians who are losng their private insurance because of Obamacare. Are you ok with that too? What are they, collateral damage?
Jack,
It pains me to this day to think of the people I have hurt deeply with assumptions and judgments.
You held your head up and rose above it. Good for you. Like I said people will always talk, so let them.
Well what you know? Whodathinkit? Ex-RINO still hasn’t addressed the central point of my post…the shortage of doctors to care for medicaid patients. Why am I not surprised?
Truthseeker and Jack,
An interesting and informative article.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemarieturner/2012/08/21/the-real-tragedy-of-obamacare-has-yet-to-be-felt-by-the-poor/2/
Explains how the feds may not be able to back up the money, even if the states accept medicaid expansion.
“Jack, How much does your state currently spend on the state insurance plan? If you state has to spend $300 million annualy on new Obamacare enrollees then that is 300 million dollars they won’t have for the state insurance plan. Where do you people get this endless penchant to deflect blame for everything bad Obama by bringing up that he inherited problems when he took office. Understand that even if something is bad each persons action can either make the situation worse or better. Sheesh.”
It’s not about inherited problems, truthseeker, that wasn’t my point. The point is that my state is already spending millions and millions for these people. I don’t know if Obamacare will save us money for sure, but I do know that these people are not getting zero healthcare right now and all of a sudden when the expansion kicks in they will be costing millions. They already cost us millions. I don’t know which was will be better but I do know that it isn’t a choice between not spending money on these people and Obamacare spending money on them. We are spending money either way, it’s just that the system we rely on now is spending money on people getting emergency care for health conditions that could have been cheap and easy to treat if they had preventative care, but without access it turns into a huge hospital bill that taxpayers and insured people foot the bill for.
When I got pneumonia I spent almost three days in the hospital extremely ill. I did not have to get that sick. I just waited way to long to go to the ER because I didn’t want a huge hospital bill, I couldn’t afford it even though I knew I didn’t have a normal chest cold, I knew something was seriously wrong but I knew it was going to be expensive. When I lost consciousness from coughing too hard and not being able to breathe my wife finally forced me to go in, I could have died and I ended up with a huge bill that I will never be able to pay off. This is the situation that the thousands are in now. I don’t know if Obamacare will be more costly but what is happening right now is costly too.
“You don’t seem to want to admit that Obamacare will have any negative effects on you so lets look at from somebody elses situation. How about the 26 year old Walmart employee who stocks shelves on the graveyard shift because he hates taking handouts. Now because of Obamatax he getting his hours cut and losing his private health insurance. It could justy as easily be you. How about standing up for him? If you really were the independent minded self-sufficient person you claim to be then that would make you mad as hell. There are thousands of low income Floridians who are losng their private insurance because of Obamacare. Are you ok with that too? What are they, collateral damage?”
Of course I care about these people. I just haven’t seen convincing evidence that it is going to go down that way. I have seen opinions like your from more right-leaning sources, and opinions to the contrary from more left-leaning blogs. I am not convinced it’s as dire as you are making it out to be.
And nice jab there, I am self-sufficient as I can possibly be. If you think I have to stop paying rent so I can afford private insurance for my kids instead of state insurance just to be self-sufficient, I can’t help you there.
“Medicaid mostly goes to the elderly and the disabled.”
Ex-RINO, CORRECTION. You should have said medicaid used to be a medical support system primarily for the elderly and disabled. Cause it is about to change under Obamacare. Otherwise healthy people of all age brackets who are going to be added to the medicaid rolls as part of Obamacare. Or do you think they will mostly be elderly and disabled? Even somebody as obtuse as you should comprehend that the ones who lose their private insurance because of Obamatax probably were not elderly or disabled before getting put on medicaid.
Truthseeker where do you think these thousands of people are getting healthcare from right now before the expansion, and who do you think is paying for it?
Of course I care about these people. I just haven’t seen convincing evidence that it is going to go down that way.
Jack, I don’t think there is any denying that this is occuring in huge numbers. Big companies like AT&T, Verizon, John Deere, Caterpillar, McDonalds, WalMart….the list goes on and on. Papa Johns, Olive Garden, Applebees and tons of service industry companies that have 50 or more employees. Business have announced their plans to cut employess health insurance so it is happening already. And it will continue to happen because it is just a matter of business sense.
I can link to articles if you want me to but most of this only gets reported by conservative web-sites and in the past you have asked for links from MSM. The MSM avoids reporting anything that hurts the liberal agenda. Just ask anybody you know who works in the service industry and see if it has come up yet? Starting in 2014 and then a lot more in 2018 is when the largest penalties kick in. They are implementing Obamatax incrementally so people don’t see it coming till it has been around long enough to make a new dependent class. Like frogs in a pot of water and the burner is on.
Interesting article Mary. The feds plan is to set pricing controls and limiting what they are willing to reimburse the states to a fraction of what providers charge people to get the care. I am glad my state decided to opt out and won’t be on the hook. The federal government has been on a spending orgy for four years. No budget as far as the eye can see….probably for at least another four years since Senator Reid has already said he doesn’t see a need for the Senate to propose a budget. I just hope the House stands firm and stops the insanity. No more debt limit increases until the government puts out a budget that doesn’t borrow money to spend and where entitlements are reformed to a sustainable trajectory.
t*seeker/Mary -
I’m interested to know what your solution for Medicaid is. Both of you seem to be supporting higher reimbursement rates so that doctors take more patients – is that true? I can’t tell – t*seeker, in just a couple of sentences, says that the feds are doing price controls (and seems to say that is bad), and then says the federal gov has been on a spending splurge (which makes things like price controls sound good).
So Medicaid – are you two supporting reimbursement hikes?
Some of the reactions by businesses have been some of the strongest evidence that I’ve seen that we need to move to a single payer system and stop linking insurance to employment. Those companies that don’t offer insurance to employees – taxpayers are essentially subsidizing their operations and puts their competitors who do offer employment at a disadvantage.
Offering health care as a part of employment is unique to the US – was something that started during war times as a perk (because wages were controlled) – and the percentage of people with insurance through their job has been plunging for years.
Of course, it should come as no surprise that t*seeker is wrong in some of his/her post. Papa Johns looked at cutting back, got so much flack from consumers (their brandindex score collapsed after the dust up – from 32 on election day to 4 when this all happened), that they have confirmed that they will be offering insurance.
Applebees saw their score drop from 20 to 5 – and Darden actually lowered their profit projections because they’ve gotten hit so hard.
http://blogs.forbes.com/rickungar/
I do think though, it is strong evidence that we need to look at getting rid of the insurance-job link.
Never fear, EGOOP, for single-payer has been Obama’s intention all along.
And I’m sure unemployment will plummet as everyone will now have a 29-hour work week! Problems solved!
Ex-RINO,
Didn’t your mother teach you any manners? It is impolite to ignore what people say to you while you continue blathering and asking them questions.
TS, EGV, and Jack,
I think that article shows that gov’t run health care is a recipe for disaster. The more the gov’t gets involved, the more people in need suffer, as Jack has so well pointed out, and the greater the corruption and waste.
The last thing we need is yet another gov’t boondoggle, AKA Obamacare.
The question is now what? Turn it over to each state to let them manage in accordance to their needs? A gov’t heavily in debt can’t be making promises about adequately covering everyone in need so states can’t depend on the feds. I have stated time and again the options that I think would help with this mess. Also, could states run low cost health insurance with people who qualify paying what they can into a fund? Jack for instance could pay, and I’m just throwing this out there Jack, $10.00 to $20.00/month. People with higher incomes can pay more. People below a certain income or with disabilities that make it difficult or impossible for them to work pay nothing.
Again, only food for thought.
Mary – so you think states should run a medicaid type system with low payments to doctors?
Interesting.
t*seeker -
Sorry.
The 70% makeup is a current number.
It might change in the future.
EGV,
I think each state should determine the needs of its own citizens and design its own program tailored to those needs. I said nothing about low payments to doctors. That’s our efficient federal gov’t run care at work.
Wisconsin BadgerCare is an example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BadgerCare
So-called “Romey Care” was designed for the state of Massachusetts.
In addition to the suggestions I have mentioned in the past for health care reform.
Hi Hans,
Indeed he does want a single payer system. I have posted a video in previous posts where you hear it straight from the Dear Leader himself.
Isn’t it reassuring that these are the people who gave us Obamacare and will be running our health care?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=QjG958lZ1KI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?=kmju1KOaw0A
Hans, as my grandma always said, if we didn’t laugh we’d cry
Sorry Hans,
Try this link:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cesSRfXqS1Q
and then this one!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5Y9X5ggxzA
Hi Mary,
Maybe you were looking for these, which no doubt make EGOP’s toes curl:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpAyan1fXCE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hsqzSKuC44
By the way, Hank “Guam may capsize!” Johnson is no relation. ;)
Mary -
So you complain that Florida slashed jobs, and the reason that they slashed jobs was because of their slashing of the medicaid budget, which you support that states right to do in tailoring a solution for their state (I’m guessing with no regulation or mandated coverage). Awesome. You love what you hate and you hate what you love. Got it.
Hans – single payer doesn’t make my toes curl. The system, pre reform, was a mess. Health Care Reform is a temporary bandaid. Some sort of single payer is the inevitable. I saw healthcare CEO’s at giant institutions talking about it years ago. Our system has way too many inefficiencies, and the lack of coordination along with the duplicity of services is waste.
Health care coverage for all should be our goal – and a focus on personal responsibility and preventative care leading drivers.
Hey Hans,
If you don’t want to admit it, I understand! :)
I have posted those Obama videos on previous posts for EGV’s benefit.
I just love the ones of Johnson and Baucus. Our government at work!
EGV,
If you read what the CEO said it was because of health care mandates, that’s Obamacare, and medicare and medicaid cuts.
If you read my other sources that I provided you will know that Obamacare is responsible for the medicare loss of billions and is targetting senior citizens.
Seems like we have a mess created by the government and now you expect the gov’t to solve it.
BTW EGV, check out the two videos I posted for Hans to help you better understand who is now running your health care. A dimwit and a drunk, then multiply them several times over. Then follow my grandma’s advice.
“The question is now what? Turn it over to each state to let them manage in accordance to their needs? A gov’t heavily in debt can’t be making promises about adequately covering everyone in need so states can’t depend on the feds. I have stated time and again the options that I think would help with this mess. Also, could states run low cost health insurance with people who qualify paying what they can into a fund? Jack for instance could pay, and I’m just throwing this out there Jack, $10.00 to $20.00/month. People with higher incomes can pay more. People below a certain income or with disabilities that make it difficult or impossible for them to work pay nothing. ”
It would be cool if my state actually bothered to do something like this. A low cost health insurance based on income would be great. Especially if there could be tailored plans (like I wouldn’t have maternity and birth control covered on mine, a young married woman with no mental health issues might leave off mental health coverage but have maternity/birth control covered). But for some reason my state decided slashing low income insurance services was a better way to go. Who knows, we could have slashed many other things to help balance the budget, but we chose low income healthcare.
And not to mention that doesn’t even touch things like pre-existing conditions. Like, my spleen was removed when I was eight. You could make a fairly sound medical rationale that any infections I get now (like when I got pneumonia) are exacerbated by me lacking a spleen, since it can ruin your immune system. So with pre-existing conditions being a valid reason to deny health coverage, I could easily be denied coverage. I think it was Ex who brought up his friend who had cancer and then couldn’t get coverage. I don’t see how this is helped without a federal mandate to criminalize denying coverage on pre-existing conditions.
Okay Mary - you’d like to talk Florida. Now, I’m sure this is futile, seeing that you don’t care about sources and where facts come from – you’ve essentially admitted this – but I’ll try anyway – here’s a more complete article:
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-11-19/news/os-orlando-health-layoffs-20121116_1_orlando-health-sherrie-sitarik-readmission-rates
Some interesting tidbits:
– The system had a $59 MILLION reduction in medicaid payments. That was the result of the republican governor and the legislators cutting medicaid.
– Part of the reduction in income was because they had better outcomes. If you don’t understand any of what I write, please read this multiple times. In the current system (pre-reform), a facility was financially rewarded with more income if somebody had to be readmitted to the hospital. The new system will be following more of a Mayo Clinic model (maybe you’ve heard of them) where they focus on outcome, not ringing up more and more services. The CEO said that once the system shifts to payments for outcome and not services, “that will even out”. They were partly in trouble because they became TOO efficient – and the old system rewarded that.
– The hospital system still has a large expansion moving forward. They are working to position themselves for the future – they also are buying a primary care physicians group.
Hi Jack,
Exactly Jack. I’m flattered you agree with my suggestion. I can’t answer for your state or what it did or why, maybe fed regulations or interference? Maybe runaway costs and mismanagement?
Jack -
Here’s the bottom line with Mary’s comments.
People in Florida deserve less than people in Mass or Wisconsin.
If you are a citizen in a state that cares less about the poor, Mary fully supports they cutting your care, giving tax breaks to the wealthy, or doing whatever. Basic services through regulation and rules – Mary wants nothing to do with it.
What’s good enough for Massachusetts residents is too good for Florida residents. You aren’t worth it if the state wants to spend the money instead on, let’s say corporate welfare/subsidies.
I just don’t believe that. But that’s exactly what she’s saying.
EGV,
Did you read your own source? The CEO says what my source says, health care mandates(that’s Obamacare) and medicare and medicaid cuts across the country and at her facility as well are forcing cutbacks and layoffs. I have shown you sources as to how Obamacare is targetting medicare and seniors and is already imposing fines for readmissions.
http://jhpolitics.com/2012/11/obamacare-forces-orlando-health-layoffs/
I will also remind you as to how Obamacare has ripped off medicare, forcing these hospitals to take drastic measures.
http://scottystarnes.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/obamacare-raids-medicare-and-makes-off-with-716-billion/
And better yet EGV, I’ll use a source that you posted
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/obamacare-forces-93000-hospital-job-cuts-in-2013-nc-hospitals-costs-up-7-5-billion-the-next-10-years-medicare-and-medicaid-reimbursements-mass-layoffs/
I don’t think that’s a completely fair assessment of her comments though, Ex. I think she simply has way more faith in the free market and the GOP legislator than I do. I suppose I will just move to Wisconsin or something. :/
I do think it’s interesting that Florida voters passed a ballot measure that does not allow us to opt out of the individual mandate. Apparently a lot of voters disagree with our GOP-led legislator about Obamacare, at least the individual mandate part. They should have put the Medicaid expansion to a vote, I would like to see how people voted on that.
And it’s our wealthier counties, like Collier, Palm Beach and Broward, where most of the support for Obamacare is coming from. I don’t know what that means except that it kinda puts the lie that the only people who are shilling for Obama are poor people looking to steal out of taxpayers pockets.
EGV 9:56PM
This post is so moronic that I will just heed Big Joe’s words of wisdom.
Mary -
You are only taking part of the quote: “Health-care reform mandates and changes in reimbursement structures for Medicare and Medicaid are forcing health-care organizations throughout the U.S. to confront new challenges,” Sitarik said. “We must find better ways to deliver enhanced value to patients and lower the overall cost of care.”
– Mandates are forcing them to do business differently
– Medicaid and Medicare changes are forcing them to do business differently.
Are you against paying for performance? Do you think facilities that don’t have good outcomes shouldn’t simply get paid more? Seriously?
Jack -
This is exactly what she’s saying. She’s saying that she’s fine with Florida cutting services to the poor and health care for the poor if the state wants to do it – that the feds should just give them money, unchecked, and let them do what they want with it. It’s a joke of a position.
http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/84696/states-health-care-obama-governors
Hi Jack
I will refer you back to this post. The poor are very wise not to shill for Obamacare.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/gracemarieturner/2012/08/21/the-real-tragedy-of-obamacare-has-yet-to-be-felt-by-the-poor/2/
EGV 10:25PM
Good grief how many different times do I have to go over this with you? Obamacare and cuts to medicare and medicaid are forcing hospitals to cut back, understand? Seniors are targetted.
Yes of course they have to do things differently, like cutting back on senior care and avoiding readmissions, which can result in a $125,000 fine. They have to cut back on staff. I have pointed out to you with various sources that hospitals have to brace now.
EGV 10:30PM
Big Joe, wherever in eternity you now reside, you will be pleased to know that I heed your advice.
It does help spare me much aggravation, as you said it would.
Mary –
Who cut Medicaid in Florida over the past few years?
Thankfully in Florida, doctor payment rates are going up for Medicaid because of Health Care Reform.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/morning-edition/2012/12/florida-docs-to-see-higher-medicaid.html
EGV
Read the article, medicaid patients will also be affected.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/10/30/in-florida-obamacare-to-cause-27-of-doctors-to-stop-accepting-medicare-patients/
http://www.politicalcalvelcraft.org/2012/11/23/obamacare-forces-85-million-into-crippled-medicaid-trap/
Florida is mentioned in here.
EGV, will you finally realize the money just isn’t there, anything government run will only result in corruption, waste, and inefficiency and we now have to deal with this. Will you also realize that more gov’t involvement will not solve the problem but only make a horrendous situation worse?
Mary –
Who cut Medicaid in Florida over the last few years?
EGV,
I couldn’t edit that one link. Here is the correction
http://www.politicalvelcraft.org/2012/11/23/obamacare-forces-85-million-into-crippled-medicaid-trap/
2002 article about how doctors were leaving treating medicare programs in high numbers. This is not new news.
http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/17/us/many-doctors-shun-patients-with-medicare.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Health Care Reform isn’t the issue…the issue is for years, they’ve tried to control costs by limiting payments.
What is your solution? Euthanize old people? Have them get jobs and pay their own insurance?
EGV,
No, euthenizing old people is what Obamacare has in mind, you know by fining hospitals if they are readmitted and cutting back medicare payments thus cutting back on care. This was attempted once before in 1997 with catastrophic consequences for seniors. Please refer back to the Betsy McCaughey link.
EGV, government involvement is the issue! It started in the 60’s when the gov’t got itself involved and we’re seeing the end results now. You think more gov’t involvement is the solution?
Yes, doctors have not been happy about taking medicare patients, largely because of reimbursement problems and delays, inefficiency, and gov’t red tape. You think Obamacare is a remedy? Do you think a gov’t trillions in debt can pay for millions of people dumped into a crippled medicaid system? What options do states have with a bad economy and no guarantee from a gov’t drowning in debt but to cut costs?
EGV, again, when will you realize that anything the government interferes in, be it families, schools, communities, “anti-poverty” programs and health care only spells disaster?
EGV,
What else would you expect from a dimwit and a drunk multiplied many times over?
“EGV, again, when will you realize that anything the government interferes in, be it families, schools, communities, “anti-poverty” programs and health care only spells disaster?”
Except for things like domestic abuse, sexual violence, addiction services, or basically anything that the private sector can’t see much of a profit off of. Those things were helped by government interference. I am sure there are other examples too. Government isn’t evil, it can be necessary for some things.
Hi Jack
You’ll find that domestic abuse shelters, sexual violence awareness and help, homeless shelters etc. were started by private citizens, organizations, volunteers, activists groups, and houses of worship. Counties, cities, and states, as well as hospitals, offer addiction services. Thank heaven these folks stepped in since the gov’t wasn’t doing squat up until then, and its probably just as well.
“You’ll find that domestic abuse shelters, sexual violence awareness and help, homeless shelters etc. were started by private citizens, organizations, volunteers, activists groups, and houses of worship. Counties, cities, and states, as well as hospitals, offer addiction services. Thank heaven these folks stepped in since the gov’t wasn’t doing squat up until then, and its probably just as well. ”
Yeah, and I didn’t mean to discount the actions of private citizens and programs. What I meant was, don’t you think that the efforts might be for nothing if, for example, the government didn’t lay down restrictions (like, your wife isn’t property and you can’t beat her whenever you feel like it, or your children aren’t yours to rape and abuse)? That’s kind of how I feel about it. Private actions are all good but without some type of government restrictions on those type of behaviors the problems weren’t really going to be able to be fought. So, applying that type of reasoning, wouldn’t it be good if the government restricted things like denying coverage to pre-existing conditions, or preventing lifetime caps from bankrupting someone with severe health issues? We could have private charities to help these individuals out, but it has to have balance with reasonable government interference. Free market isn’t absolute and doesn’t fix everything.
Mary
“Euthenizing old people is what Obamacare has in mind”
—-Glad to see the list of lies has grown by one more!
Look – you rail and rail about the government in healthcare. So what’s the option. Do you want to move to a system where there is only free market companies involved in payment, and hospitals are allowed…probably encouraged (for the fiscal responsibilities of their customers) to turn away people who can’t pay?
It works great at your local BMW place Mary – if I can’t afford a BMW, I don’t buy a BMW. I buy a cheaper car. And if I can’t afford that, I walk or take the bus.
But 8 year old’s without insurance get hurt in car accidents. It isn’t their fault, but it happens. Now, through the recent history of the US, we’ve said that these 8 year olds, and other people without insurance, should be able to get care. They should be able to tap into public funds.
Is this what you are against? Any payment from the government? Any programs for seniors, disabled folks, kids, and military members if the reimbursement comes from government sources.
You find one or two highly biased authors and run with it – while ignoring tons of other sources in the process.
And for the record, Medicaid was slashed by the government in Florida. Budgets have consequences.
Hi Jack,
Yes the gov’t, state and federal, makes laws, supposedly by the people’s representatives.
Jack, I think I can best make this analogy. Regard the gov’t as that bothersome relative who, though well meaning and with the most noble of intentions, will by their constant interference make matters worse, create issues and problems where there weren’t any, and think they can control people’s actions, lives and destinies. The type of relative where you say, if he/she would just have stayed out of this, it wouldn’t have become such a problem! I can relate to such a situation personally!
Approach anything the gov’t says or does with the same skepticism and caution you would this bothersome relative. The gov’t is doing the same thing, only on a far greater and in a far more destructive manner.
EGV, 7:50PM
You need only look at the gov’ts dismal track record with Medicare and Medicaid to get your answer. If you want to call my sources lies and not believe them, fine. What else would you expect with the 716 billion taken from Medicare?
Time and again I have posted solutions and alternatives but for some reason you are fixated on some magical gov’t solution, though past “solutions” have failed miserably and have only victimized the poor and elderly.
You would do well to follow the advice I gave Jack in the above post.
Mary –
We’ll have to just agree to disagree. I thought we could look at some objective measures – but this is already on page two, and I know that even when we look at the same numbers, it often times doesn’t get us anywhere.
So I’ll just leave with one more question – not sure your age or anything – but have you, or are you going to, opt out of medicare?
EGV,
I would be very happy to opt out when the time comes, given what Betsy McCaughey says in her article and what happened to seniors in 1997 when medicare payments to hospitals were reduced. Already hospitals are being fined for readmission of Medicare patients, i.e. senior citizens. Will seniors have this option, or Americans as a whole to opt out of Obamacare, not likely. They will be forced onto it. You are well aware this is what the Dear Leader wants as you have heard it straight from him.
So far a thousand or two Obamacare waivers have been granted. Have you ever asked yourself why EGV?
Also EGV, heed my advice. I have lived long enough to see the dismal failure and tragedy of gov’t interference. Family and community breakdown, corruption, massive debt, waste, inefficiency, dependency, and poverty.
As for the analogy of the interfering relative, I speak from personal experience. And like the interfering relative who only ends up creating discord, dependency, and trouble, a bunch of politicians, and that includes the dimwit and drunk that I posted, will always say they only had the best of intentions.
Mary –
Readmission information – here you go:
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/Stories/2012/October/03/medicare-revises-hospitals-readmissions-penalties.aspx
Quick summary – there is about $17.5 BILLION in extra medicare waste because of readmissions each year. Some are not avoidable. Fines do not happen on a case by case basis – fines happen if hospitals reach certain trigger points. Already, hospitals are becoming smarter about it – for instance, following up with somebody who has been recently discharged. Heck of a lot cheaper than a readmission.
Massive waste happens in both government and private insurance plans. Watch TV for a while and tell me how many drug commercials you see. Read through a magazine and see the full page ads. Look at the marketing dollars in health care companies – dollars that go to pens and polo shirts instead of health care. You’ve got the rhetoric down, there just isn’t the facts to back it up – at least facts that are actually true (the 93,000 number fake facts – you work those well to your advantage!)
Last note – the waivers – we’ve covered that before.
I’m not going to participate too much in the Obamacare debate from now on. I know this is what you live for each Sunday, EGOP-V. ;) I’ll occasionally link to the many dire articles that are sure to come.
You’re a numbers guy. It’s diconcerting you have so much faith in this administration. About the first thing they did was put forward a Sec Treasury who couldn’t do his taxes yet wasn’t keen to reform the system. It’s been downhill since then and there’s a cliff up ahead.
Mary is a health care professional, and I heed the warnings of many in that field that doctor shortages and rationing has only been accelerated. I’m afraid I believe them.
It’s all well and good to say, “Well, what’s your plan?” No, I don’t have one. All I know is that medical coverage was not the primary problem to solve four years ago. Yes, we’ve kicked the can down the road for decades. But a time of econmic crisis was not the time to pick up that can.
Now both problems are intertwined in a death spiral, and I really fear for this country.
Hans -
Thanks for the many times debating then. A couple of quick things:
– I’ve been in health care for much of the last ten years – military and health care industries, with experience in hospital GPO organizations.
– I am a numbers guy – you are right on with that. There are hundreds of millions of people in this country, and there will be good and bad experiences in any industry. One article of one experience doesn’t mean much to me in the broader context of things – what I mean is, we have a tendency to freak out at little pieces of information.
– I can assure you, rationing has been going on for decades, and will continue. There are many kinds of rationing though. The kinds that cause people to die are bad. The kinds that deny treatment based on wealth is bad. But other times, not giving a patient exactly what they want right away is a good thing. Some things are overtreated – like some kinds of back pain.
– Medical coverage has been a massive issue – it has affected the countries global competition in areas like the auto industry. Costs have squeezed the middle class and hurt consumer spending. The inefficiencies of running a system based on emergency are rather than preventative health care has cost taxpayers a lot of money. Something needed to be done – Obama has the numbers to do it, and I’m glad he did. Far from a perfect system, and there will be issues to work through. We had massive amounts of issues in the previous system, and to think they will all go away, and that new ones won’t pop up – that’s just wishful thinking. But I’m very encouraged by the general direction of health care that this plan puts us on.
Again, thanks for the times of debating health care.
Since June 847,000 jobs have been created. 621,000 of those jobs were government. How do we pay these people when they get 3 jobs for every one who supports them and they retire after 20 years with lifetime health care and pensions.
And the unemployment rate dipped .2 percent to 7.7 percent last month. Unfortunately it is because half a million people dropped out of the work force; stopped looking for work (and went on government care?). So the taxes of every one new person who gets a job needs to pay for 3 more government workers and 2 more people on unemployment and pay for the Obamacare insurance 2 more families who are lost their private insurance and their food stamps. But to keep it fiscally sane we will pay 100% for family reduction services of not only Obamacare enrollees but we mandate family reduction services be free to all US citizens. OK.
And they call themselves the 99%…wow
Ex,
Well, I hope your optimism is justified.
Massive waste happens in both government and private insurance plans.
See, I have a bit more faith in the private sector than the public. Businesses have to answer to all kinds fo people or people will eventually go elsewhere.
The government gets away with waste, malfeasance, and incompetence to a much greater degree. And we have just seen that they won’t be held accountable if they put up an image that makes them feel good about themselves, especially one that they really convince themselves “cares” about them.
We sure do get what we deserve.
Truth -
Can I just tell you that those numbers have been debunked – that they were using a less accurate household data survey – not the established numbers from the establishment survey. It’s bad data manipulation. Do you want some posts? Do you even care about the true numbers? Am I just wasting my time here?
EGV,
Did you read your source? Yes follow up is a fine idea, but hospitals are still being fined and admissions are not always unavoidable. For hospitals that serve a large low income and senior population and rural hospitals, this can be catastrophic.
Any way you want to slice this EGV, it puts our seniors in danger and puts an unfair burden on hospitals.
So you want to remedy massive insurance waste with more gov’t waste? How about using the options I have discussed? I have told you time and again that third party payment is what leads to astronomical costs.
EGV, I have shown you numerous sources concerning the 93,000 number, including one or your own, that shows this is due to Obamacare. Why you remain so fixated on that is beyond me.
Refresh my memory. What about the waivers?
Businesses answer to shareholders. The people they answer to want profits above all else.
I’m not saying that private enterprise is bad – not at all.
I am saying that pre-existing conditions would still be a massive factor if it was left entirely to private companies. I am saying that lifetime maximums would still be a massive factor if it was left entirely to private companies. I am saying that the reality of a customer being kicked out of a plan during a time of illness would be a massive factor if it was left entirely to private companies.
Let me again, try to leave you with one more nugget of fact that contradicts a bit what you think the reality is.
One aspect of the reform law states that an insurance company has to pay at least 80% of what is paid in on actual care. If a plan pays more than 20% of premium costs on things like administrative overhead, marketing, and waste – they have to rebate customers.
For instance, in Texas, there isn’t much regulation on where hospitals can be built – in many states, they don’t let chains build hospital after hospital because you end up with inefficiencies driving up the costs.
Blue Cross of Texas, paid out a little under 70% towards actually health care. 30 cents of every dollar paid in premiums didn’t even go to care. A company called Citizens National Life Insurance Company didn’t even hit 50%. 50%. The 80/20 rule will force companies to become more efficient so that premiums dollars aren’t wasted. Look it up.
Mary -
Readmissions are not always possible – which is why fines levied on every case. Hospitals that reach certain thresholds of rates get their max reimbursement lowered by 1% (it increases in future years). Many facilities have worked to cut down on this waste – and have been successful. It’s a good thing to decrease these amounts- why should taxpayers pay extra money because a hospital cares more about ringing up additional costs than outcomes?
Insurance companies are third party payments also. If you want to get rid of all insurance companies and government pay, and let people pay medical facilities directly – well, that’s a whole new world.
THE 93,000 IS NOT DUE TO HEALTH CARE REFORM. I FOUND THE NUMBER ON THE AHA SITE AND IT IS A PROJECTION IF THE FISCAL CLIFF IS HIT.
As a side note, I emailed your first source directly to see if there was some other report that they were pulling the number from – something that hasn’t been published. I’ve received no response.
The waivers are not a long term waiver from reform. Waivers are temporary exemptions from some aspects of the laws as the company/union works to get up to the standards of the law. For instance, plans need to have reasonable annual max amounts. Some plans (often called mini-med plans) often have lower payouts. Some companies/unions have sought waivers as they ramp up to the proper amounts.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/may/23/crossroads-gps/unions-dont-have-comply-obamacare-says-crossroads-/
“To be clear, though, the waivers do not exempt these groups from the health care law. They only allow them to continue offering their current health plans with annual limits until 2014.”
http://www.hhnmag.com/hhnmag/HHNDaily/HHNDailyDisplay.dhtml?id=5360005559
Another site on the 93,000 number.
EGV,
10 years in the medical area? Excuse me if I’m not impressed.
From the sounds of it I have been in the medical area longer than you’ve been born, and I have seen first hand what you spend time reading and crunching numbers about. I see good nurses lost and patient care suffer because some genius in an office “knows” best. I see medical personnel struggle every day with those gov’t monstrosities and rules that are compiled by the dimwits and drunks you saw in those videos. I understand why doctors simply cannot afford to take a medicare patient, and its not out of heartlessness. Like you and I, they have to eat to.
I also remember a time when a working single mother like mine could afford to take her children to the doctor and dentist because competition and knowing what your patients could pay is what kept your practice going.
If you think insurance is a hassle, wait until you’re dealing with some sweaty overworked gov’t bureaucrat who’s just put your application for a knee replacement on the bottom of a stack of thousands or you wind up on a five year waiting list for bariatric surgery like they do in Canada. One of the reasons they have contracted with 15 American hospitals to serve Canadian citizens.
I have the experience behind me to back up what I am saying. So some people, yourself included, think Medicare will force hospitals to become more efficient. Dream on. Just like the geniuses with the pencils and numbers who “know” what is good patient care. I’ll tell you what will happen. These people will be booted as soon as possible, considering they are even readmitted. Gee, can’t your loved one care for you just as well. Old people have a lot of chronic problems EGV that leave hospitals with little choice, and lots of fines they will now have to pay. Something dimwits and drunks don’t understand when they issue gov’t healthcare mandates.
So a number cruncher like you figures we just do a little follow up care and all is fine. My mother was in and out of the hospital for complications from a broken hip, incuding two more surgical interventions no one could anticipate. Thankfully it was a few years ago so the hospital wouldn’t be fined. Or maybe they would have told her she just had to live with the excruciating pain of a stress fracture by taking lots of pain meds. Isn’t that what the Dear Leader told a woman who asked about a pacemaker for her elderly mother, that she would just have to take pain meds instead? A real genius, our Dear Leader. These patients have no need for pain meds.
You fixate on the 93,000 number. Oh how efficient. I see something completely different. And yes various sources, including one posted by you, connect this number to Obamacare. I see an outstanding APN, the divorced mother of 2 children who has just be ousted by the rural hospital, she has served for many years. You see efficiency, I see patient care suffer.
So when I try to talk some sense to you EGV, its coming from day to day contact for over 40 years, not what looks good to some overpaid government bureaucrat.
Mary –
I take it your job doesn’t have anything to do with numbers. I pray it doesn’t.
The 93,000 articles I posted link it to the AHA – I posted one that blamed reform, but mentioned the AHA – so that I could logically tie it to the AHA numbers to show that the article was lying. That you continue to believe it is mind-numbing to me. The number is right there on the AHA site, and you continue to believe lies with no backing.
I’ll take health care reform, where people are covered – where payment will shift from racking up fees to outcomes – where people can’t be denied coverage for something they were born with. I’ll take that.
You can drive somebody having a heart attack around from facility to facility, looking for the cheapest cost.
Good luck with that.
The world you dream of is the world where a facility can leave somebody to die – a world where insurance companies can simply kick people out of a plan because they cost to much. What a joke.
Let’s be done with these conversations Mary – the good ole days are in the past. We have a new reality that needs to be dealt with using facts, compassion, and gives more power to consumers. I’m in favor of those things. I don’t believe you are.
Moving on.
EGV,
What if they just want to keep their insurance and don’t want Obamacare? Didn’t the Dear Leader assure us we could keep our policies?
Oh and EGV, a source you posted.
http://citizenwells.wordpress.com/2012/11/25/obamacare-forces-93000-hospital-job-cuts-in-2013-nc-hospitals-costs-up-7-5-billion-the-next-10-years-medicare-and-medicaid-reimbursements-mass-layoffs/
Since we have posted opposing sources and there is conflicting info, let’s just call this a draw.
Yes Mary – exactly:
“He said layoffs are sweeping the industry. Graban referred to a report from the American Hospital Association that says hospitals will cut 93,000 jobs during 2013.”
If you can find a different report from the AHA mentioning 93,000 job cuts – anything else from the one I found – feel free to post. It is clear that this was bad journalism.
Call it whatever you want.
EGV,
Sure I’ll take health care where people are covered as well, and not by another cumbersome, bloated, government monstrosity which in fact does NOT cover people, as we have seen.
I dream of a world where a facility can let people die and insurance can drop people? Oh please EGV, this from someone who finds Medicare efficient for fining hospitals who readmit patients. Any thought how this could effect the poor and elderly? More power to consumers and compassion. You’re not serious right? That’s how you would describe a program that will force staffing cuts in hospitals?
This article points out that the 11 billion medicare cuts of 2011 mentioned in the AHA article were in addition to the 716 billion Obamacare Medicare “savings” i.e. cuts, over a 10 year period enacted in 2010. Now the AHA says it was because of the 2011 cuts, but these are in addition to the Obamacare cuts. The AHA did not say Obamacare, but that doesn’t mean these job losses are not related to both cuts. The AHA did say 93,000 jobs, others may maintain, like the CEO of Orlando health, that their cutting results from “health care mandates and cuts to Medicare and Medicaid” . The sources got the number from AHA, they did not say the AHA blamed Obamacare.
http://www.kff.org/medicare/upload/8216-02.pdf
Now could these 93,000 cuts be in anticipation of the massive Obamacare medicare cuts that are coming? Depends on who you talk to. That 11 billion seems like a pittance next to 716 billion. The AHA may have one opinion, another source a different one.
EGV,
A couple of more articles that explain how the Obamacare fines, already in effect, and the impending cuts and taxes in Obamacare give my sources are very compelling argument that the 93,000 number is related to Obamacare. That is not to say that AHA in fact stated this, which it did not.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/10/26/obamacares-second-term-agenda-making-obamacares-taxes-spending-and-regulations-permanent/
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/10/07/Obamacare-Fines-For-Hospitals-That-Readmit-Sick-Patients-Begin
The AHA can state the 93,000 number is the result of the budget deal of 2011 that cut Medicare by 11billion. Others can draw their own conclusions.
Interesting article involving the AHA
http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/tait-trussell/obamacare-and-the-war-on-hospitals/
My apologies, EGV,
I must correct two links.
The Forbes article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/10/26/obamas-second-term-agenda-making-obamacares-taxes-spending-and-regulations-permanent/
Sorry, I still can’t get the AHA link to work. Will see if typing it will work.
EGV,
Sorry, still no luck with the link. My computer has been blacking out on me, blasted thing is probably infected again, causing problems with links etc., so if you are interested just google “front page mag obamacare and the war on hospitals.”
Interesting the concession made to the AHA for their support of Obamacare
“Am I just wasting my time here?”
Ex-RINO, you will have to judge that for yourself. I can say definitively though that you are wasting my time and the time of most other people who you expose your posts to.
Ex-RINO, Lets try a tough question and see if you can answer it.
As a Christian are you ok voting for a party platform that rejects God by removing any mention of God from their platform?
Come on, show you are a man and lets debate something directly.
As a Christian are you ok voting for a party that supports peoples rigths to kill children in the womb?
As a freedom loving American are you ok supporting a party that passed a law that makes the majority of peoples current insurance plans illegal by mandating all plans include certain benefits that prices most current private insurance plans (employer/employees) out of reach and forces people onto government health plans as their only option?
Mary –
I’m moving on.
I feel like if medicare funding increased, you’d whine about big government programs.
If medicare funding decreased, you’d whine that doctors are getting laid off and seniors care is compromised.
If medicare funding statyed the same, you’d whine that the government wasn’t trying to do better things for our seniors.
In one breath, you complain about the size of the program. In the next breath, you complain that program cuts are hurting people.
How about you just figure out your views on things, and then get back to me later.
truth
Here’s the deal. Accept it if you want – let me know.
This thread is too long -if you want to actually debate some issues – let me know, and then we’ll both jump on the Alicia Keys thread (or another similar recent thread). There are just two comments on that. I’m tired of the load time on this thread, and having to go back and forth between pages.
You get to ask one question – I’ll answer – you ask follow-ups RELATED TO THAT QUESTION – and when we’re done – then we switch – I get to then ask you a question. I’m not just going to be a firing squad of questions in which I answer, and then you completely ignore the answer and jump to the next question.
Take it or leave it – let me know.
EGV,
I’ve made it plain time and again that its out of control gov’t programs and their astronomical costs that create more problems than they solve and cause serious harm to people in the process.
Always view the gov’t as you would the interfering relative with the best intentions who always creates more problems than he/she solves, only on a far grander and certainly more destructive scale.
Ex-RINO, we can start on tomorrow’s Sunday funnies.
truth -
If you want to start, I’ve said a thread. The sunday funnies comments always has a lot of activity, and we’ll be sorting through and trying to find posts.
Furthermore, I want some agreement to the format. Thanks.
Ex-RINO, the Sunday Funnies will be fine. I won’t have a lot of time cause I have engagements most of the day. The thread shouldn’t be too busy in the evening. How about at 7pm?
Forget it.
Ex-RINO, I can say definitively though that you are wasting my time and the time of most other people who you expose your posts to.
Truth – when the majority of your informaiton stops coming from freak out blog sites (for instance, the 73% of job growth from the government post…) – then you’ll have a bit more of a leg to stand on.
I was more than willing – I threw out a couple of basic requests/framework ideas, and you wouldn’t agree to them. I’m simply tired of you throwing out a question, me shooting it down, and there’s no resolution to anything. Gets tiring.
lololololololol!!!!
Go back and read again. The main point of my posts to you throughout most of this thread was about doctor shortages and you didn’t respond ONCE to that point. You have a sickness. You are incapable of even entertaining any dialogue that you see going against your pre-conceptions. Not only that but you have shown a propensity to extreme hypocrisy. For example. You call yourself Christian but you vote for a president who stands 100% behind the largest corporate baby-killers in the US. You have a sickness. May God open your eyes.
Did you know Jesus was conceived in a mother’s womb? How can any Christian know this and support the genocide machine?
T*seeker-
Multiple times you asked how many doctors the government was going to hire.
I, multiple times, pointed out that the government didn’t hire doctors.
Sorry I didn’t say it more times.
My deal was out there – you turned it down – unsubscribing from this thread.
The fact that you place conditions on even having a dialogue speaks volumes.