Raped, impregnated 13-year-old keeps baby
I blogged last week about a Ms. Magazine article lamenting how difficult it is for “young women of color” to get abortions. The author used the story of her 14-yr-old cousin to demonstrate the trouble an adolescent has getting a clandestine abortion. Never once did Ms. or the author worry about how the girl got pregnant.
I used Planned Parenthood’s own statistics to show the younger the pregnant mother, the more likely it is she is a victim of rape or incest. Bottom line: Abortion covers up child rape.
I received an amazing email from Anna, who gave me permission to post her story and her name. It is Anna when she was 13 years old in the photo above, with her newborn daughter Josey. Here is their powerful story:
When I was little I was molested for eight years by my stepfather. He was an accomplished liar and fooled everyone, even my mom. No one knew. I was afraid to tell anyone; when you grow up hearing that bad things will happen if anyone finds out, you believe it.
I got pregnant the first time when I was 12. I was scared and told him. He hit me and then loaded me up on drugs, telling my mom that I had been injured while out playing with some other kids. He killed my baby. Of all the things that happened to me, this is what haunts me the most. I will never know who my child might have become. My only hope is in the promise I will get to see him or her in heaven when I get there, and Jesus will take care of my baby until then.
When I was 13, I became pregnant again. This time I did not say anything to him. My mom noticed that my body was changing, even though I was only about two months along at the time, and asked me about it. I remember that morning clearly. It was a Saturday, and my mom had the day off from work, but my stepfather did not. She had borrowed one of those kits to put fake nails on from my aunt, and was doing my nails. I finally got the courage and told her everything. She immediately packed up my brother, sister, and I and took us to our Aunt’s house. From there she called the police.
They arrested him and took us to the hospital for some tests, and then we had to go in for questioning ourselves. In the end, he was sentenced to 10 years in prison for molesting not only me but my sister. If he had not killed my first baby, my sister and I would have been free an entire year earlier. This is how I know that abortion protects pedophiles.
I was told by therapists, friends, teachers, family, and even strangers, that it would probably be best if I had an abortion; but I couldn’t. Earlier that year, I had learned in my science class that a child’s DNA comes from both parents, and that meant that this child was also half mine. I also figured that since I was the one who would carry her in MY body for the next several months, that made her mine, not his. I knew from my first pregnancy that he didn’t want me to have the baby. I knew that if I had an abortion, I would be doing just what he wanted, and he would win again. He would not have only killed all of my innocence, he would have killed my daughter.
It might have been easier to choose an abortion. There are many things that I would not have had to go through if I had. It was harder than I have words to describe. But there are some things in life that are worth fighting for, and she was one of them.
I’m not a very big person, 5′ 0″ and 95 lbs. I wasn’t big then either. So, due to my size and my age, I was deemed a high risk pregnancy. I had my first ultrasound at around 3 months, where I got to see her heart beat, and I fell in love. That was when I decided that I couldn’t give her up for adoption either.
The next several months were hard. The looks and comments that I received from people everywhere were difficult to deal with, to say the least. I lost all but two of my friends. But knowing that I would have that little girl soon kept me going. I decided to name her Josey Ann, after a character in a book I had read.
On Friday, July 28, 1995, roughly six weeks before my due date, I went into labor. I was flown from Vernal, Utah, to Primary Children’s Hospital in Salt Lake City. They gave me some drugs to slow down the labor (my water had not broken yet), and steroids to help develop my daughter a little faster so she would have a better chance of surviving. She was born the following Monday, July 31. She weighed 4 lb. 2 oz., and was 18″ long.
Because she was so premature and needed much medical help, they kept her in the NICU. They kept her there until the end of August. Words cannot express the joy I felt when we got to bring her home the day before I started the 7th grade.
I still had nightmares, but I would wake up and have that little smiling face to greet me. When I would get nasty looks and comments, I would go home and hear her giggle. She truly was a light in one of the darkest times of my life. I shudder to think of what that time would have been like had I aborted her.
My mom was amazing, she watched my daughter so that I could finish school. I did graduate and was my class historian. I met a wonderful man who loves both me and my daughter, and we now have four children.
At the time I had Josey, I believed in God, but I didn’t like Him very much. I couldn’t understand why a loving God would allow me to go through all that I did. It wasn’t until I was 26 that I truly found a relationship with Jesus Christ. A wonderful neighbor of ours showed me how much Jesus loves me. Because He loves us, He gave us free will. My stepfather abused that gift when he abused me. But like Romans 8:28 says, God used something horrible to bring me one of the greatest blessings in my life. Knowing her now, I would go back and do it all again.
Josey is 17 now, and is a beautiful young woman, inside and out. She loves writing, drawing and music. She is learning to play the guitar and skateboard. She volunteers in the nursery at our church and helps the worship team at one of our local ministries. She plans on going to college after she graduates to study computer animation.
She is one of the many reasons why I know that abortion is wrong. She is a person, and has been since she was conceived. Had I aborted her, this world would have lost an amazing person. My heart breaks for each child that is killed before he or she has a chance to bring someone the same joy that my daughter has brought me.
Seeing her does not remind me of the horror of my childhood, she reminds me of God’s love, and how He can bring beauty from the ashes. To anyone who is where I was, please hold on. You can make it, and your child will bring you more joy than you can imagine. It will be hard, but it is worth it.
Amazing. What courage and love. Would that many older, supposedly wiser, people, were able to see things so clearly.
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She was a very brave young lady.
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What a beautiful story. What a joy to see how such a little girl (forced into womanhood too early) can overcome so much. Thank God she had the love of her mom, so was able to finally tell her.
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How wonderful that this girl had the faith and courage to do God’s will, despite the great pain she has gone through during her childhood! The Lord was there for her the whole way. i hope this story motivates more women to keep their baby, even for an unplanned pregnancy.
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Awesome testimony of God’s grace and love.
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What a powerful and moving story. What an amazing woman Anna is, to be so strong and wise at age 13.
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Amen and amen!
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Well said.
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Why would she receive negative comments? I don’t understand people.
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LOVE YOU ANNA! So proud of you! :)
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Anna ~ You are beautiful! God bless you!
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I’m really glad her mother believed her and didn’t blame her, I guess most normal mothers wouldn’t. I’m really glad that she’s okay and she got to keep her baby.
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What a moving story of a mother’s love for her own child…..thank you for sharing such an important story with everyone. Life is so precious no matter how it happens and if others could be as strong as your daughter was and is!
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I’m glad that she was fortunate enough to have a mother who BELIEVED her, turned the PERVERT in to authorities, and then was supportive of her throughout her pregnancy and the birth of her baby.
We’ve heard far too many stories of just the opposite happening.
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“Keep the baby” can have two meanings. It can mean that she is going to carry to term. It also means that she will not place for adoption. For example, in Madonna’s song, “Papa Don’t Preach,” the narrator could be refused paternal advice to have an abortion or paternal advice to place for adoption. The website keepyourbaby.com is oriented toward girls and women who have had babies and are being pressured to place them for adoption.
Many people who strongly oppose abortion would have pressured this young lady and others like her to place for adoption. She “kept” in both senses.
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Thank you Anna for your courage and for sharing!
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What an inspirational story! Much love and hugs to you! This world would have been emptier without Josie. Thank you for making THE right choice.
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What a beautiful story of redemption and grace. Thank you for choosing life–for both your sweet Josey, and for you!
Hugs and prayers, sweet Anna.
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God bless you both!
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Wow, such a powerful story. Anna, you’re amazing.
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I am so grateful Anna for your light and your hope. You are blessed. I too became pregnant from rape at 13 but I miscarried at 3 months. Body too small I think. Thank you for sharing so openly.
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Anna, what a wonderful story of courage, bravery, strength and love. I know in Heaven you will meet your first of 5 children. God bless you.
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Awesome!! What a beautiful story of God’s grace. So proud of you, Anna!! Thank you so much for sharing. :)
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Anna. You are amazing. I can’t wait to meet you and your husband next weekend at the AHA conference!
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Jill I am sobbing all the way through this story. You should see a picture of me at age 13. She could be my sister. My God, she is me… Oh, God how I wish someone had rescued me from my abusers and let my babies live! I can’t type anymore…
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Anna, just know this without a doubt, JESUS loves you and so do I and billions of people across the globe.
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Anna, you blow me away.
Love you….
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MEL, I am sorry no one was there to help you and your babies. I’m so sorry.
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Amazing. I thought it was hard having my first child at age 15…I can hardly imagine it at age 13 and through rape. How strong you are… and how incredibly blessed!
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There are no words…
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To heck with all of the garbage produced in Hollywood. I would love to see Anna and Josey’s story made into a movie that I would be proud to watch and recommend. God Bless you both.
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NO wonder this country is going to hell. You prolifers will believe anything. As long as it’s on T.V. And the economy is getting better so Josey will have a wonderful life in her future also, because there is plenty of money to be had. What an idyllic journey, now she is going to college. Little fairies will show up at the door with a treasure chest full of money. Yeah, I believe that too.
If she is that mature and wonderful why didn’t she speak up 8 years earlier??? After 8 y;ears of that abuse she is normal, seriously?
And Josey is normal and good after being reared by a hellish 13 year old, .seriously?
What happened to the warning,”like father like son.” Or “like mother like daughter”.
It takes courage, to admit to bring a baby into the pit of hell to rear, is wrong, and courage is something this 13 year old did not have. That is where parents help with courage. And if this poor 13 year old had real parents she would not have been put in this position.
She is an example of doing the opposite of what you are told.
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Wow!
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You’re a sick mofo, magma
” If she is that mature and wonderful why didn’t she speak up 8 years earlier??? After 8 y;ears of that abuse she is normal, seriously?”
Yes, those of us who were sexually abused are irreparrably damaged, pieces of crap who can’t possibly have a good life, be eloquent, or make something of ourselves. Thanks for the info.
” And Josey is normal and good after being reared by a hellish 13 year old, .seriously?
What happened to the warning,”like father like son.” Or “like mother like daughter”.”
And we’re also all doomed to be exactly like our parents. That’s why I’m a child beater, and a rapist. Oh wait. I’m not. Maybe it’s our choices and differing personalities, not only our genetics, that make us who we are? Nah, couldn’t be. Let’s just abort everyone with crappy parents.
” It takes courage, to admit to bring a baby into the pit of hell to rear, is wrong, and courage is something this 13 year old did not have. That is where parents help with courage. And if this poor 13 year old had real parents she would not have been put in this position.”
It takes courage to admit that you are being sexually abused and get help. It takes courage to not take what’s being shoved down your throat and make the choice to bring your own baby into the world when people like you talk about the children of rapists like that.
She had a real parent, her mother. And her mother helped her get away from her POS rapist stepfather and not kill off her daughter because of the fear that PEOPLE LIKE YOU instill in her.
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Magma you make no sense whatsoever. What are you blathering on about? Go away
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Thank God for redemption!
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I’m sorry Jack’s post was deleted. He spoke from the heart for so many of us.
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Well it did break the rules. I messaged a mod to get it removed because I lost my temper. But I still stand by what I said.
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Amazing..God Bless!
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This is a beautiful story, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for Anna’s choices. However, an opinion on abortion simply can’t be generalized through one example, or even many. Not every pregnant 13 year old is lucky enough to have a wonderful mother that will watch and raise the child while the rape victim finishes school. Every situation is different, and that is why they must be taken on a case-by-case basis.
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What a powerfully sad & pathetic story. May God bless you for your courage
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What is wrong with you people?! It is NOT a blessing, miracle or beautiful thing for ANY 13 year old to become pregnant and bring a child into this world. This is not “amazing” It is sick, twisted and a perfect example of why abortions should be legal, accesable and safe. Having abortion does not save rapists from prosecution. I worked in a clinic, a 12 year old came in for an abortion. In no way was she lmature enough to carry a pregnancy, never mind raise a child or give it up for adoption. Anyway, it is NH state law that our clinic report any pregnancy/abortion under the age of 16 to authoritys. Abortion would have led to her rapist being convicted because the clinic would have mandetory reporting laws.
It is not safe for a 13 year old body, who has barely started puberty, to carry a pregnancy. ‘gods grace” didnt bring her here, a rapist did. Not all fertilized eggs/pregnancies need to be born. I am not saying Josey should die, but she should not have been born. No 13 year old has this type of insight and wisdom, she was obviously traumatized and coerced. The statement that she was excited to bring her baby home the day before 7th grade made me sick to my stomach. It doesnt make her mature, brave or holy to have a baby at 13. Her famly, friends, therspists etc who encourged her to have an abortion had her best interests at heart. I would never allow my 13 year old to have a baby let alone a rapists baby. I highly doubt this woman felt the way at 13 as she does now as an adult. I firmly believe that abortion is not murder and any relgious argument against abortion is invalid. Your religious beleifs are not superior to mine or lack there of. I am just appaled at how many of you think that no matter what the circumstances, age, risk, health status, rape, incest etc, you think that all ferilized eggs are the same as a fully formed person and MUST be born or the world will end. humans are not in danger of extinction. I would rather see a woman have an abortion if she knows she can not do right by her child or children she may already have than bring a child into a life that will be less than happy. I highly disagree with all of you.
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“It is NOT a blessing, miracle or beautiful thing for ANY 13 year old to become pregnant and bring a child into this world. ”
It’s not good that she was raped and got pregnant. She should have been free from abuse and that never should have happened.
“Anyway, it is NH state law that our clinic report any pregnancy/abortion under the age of 16 to authoritys. Abortion would have led to her rapist being convicted because the clinic would have mandetory reporting laws.”
There have been reports that clinics don’t abide by mandatory reporting in a lot of cases, so there is no guarantee. But you are talking like she shouldn’t even have a choice? I thought that you guys would want her to have the choice to bring her baby to term.
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Accidentally submitted my last comment before I was done, sorry about that.
“It is not safe for a 13 year old body, who has barely started puberty, to carry a pregnancy. ‘gods grace” didnt bring her here, a rapist did.”
Well, apparently you are wrong because she got through pregnancy okay and her baby was born with no damage to her. Not all thirteen-year-old have the same physiology. I don’t think a single pro-lifer would want her to carry to term if it would seriously damage or kill her, that’s not remotely pro-life.
“No 13 year old has this type of insight and wisdom, she was obviously traumatized and coerced. The statement that she was excited to bring her baby home the day before 7th grade made me sick to my stomach. It doesnt make her mature, brave or holy to have a baby at 13. Her famly, friends, therspists etc who encourged her to have an abortion had her best interests at heart. I would never allow my 13 year old to have a baby let alone a rapists baby.”
So let me get this straight. You are pro-choice, think it should be a woman’s choice to have an abortion, but you would force your daughter to have an abortion if she was too young for your liking or she was raped? You don’t think that would be damaging?
” I would rather see a woman have an abortion if she knows she can not do right by her child or children she may already have than bring a child into a life that will be less than happy.”
We are all “less than happy”. No one is 100% happy at all times throughout our lives. We don’t off people who are in sad situations, that’s just ridiculous.
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Sarah says that Josey shouldn’t die but that she shouldn’t have been born.
I say Sarah’s got a seriously defected heart to talk about people like that, and she can take that problem back into herself.
Way to be pro-woman and shame both a female rape victim and a woman conceived in rape. Way to be pro-choice and look down your nose at a girl who didn’t make the choice you would have wanted her to make.
Know why the proabortion side is shrinking? Heartless, lame comments like Sarah’s demonstrate that the “pro-woman, pro-choice” message is a fraud at it’s core. And more and more women know it.
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I’m always made nervous by people who express more anger and upset by a rape victim carrying their baby to term than the rape itself.
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What’s it to you, anyway, Sarah, if Anna loved her baby and gave her life? Seriously, what’s your issue with her choice? Are you grossed out by a 13 year old having a baby or something? What’s wrong with YOU, Sarah? Why would you have such strong feelings about Anna and Josey’s lives? Do you need to think they’re miserable or judge them as wrong because of something you’ve done? Did you abort your own little girl or little boy fetus when you were younger? Do you cringe at ultrasounds and other prenatal images so much that you have to portray the anti-abortion position as being based only in religion? Wow, that’s outdated!
Are your social skills so low that you would say someone shouldn’t be alive- really? That’s pretty astounding and disturbing. Girl, you desperately need to find some social skills, if only so the pro-choice position doesn’t look so bad.
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I knew I would be attacked for the comment that “Im not saying Josey should die but she should have had an abortion” I should rephrase that, as I meant to say that I dont think she should be killed now, as an actual living person who is already born and here. I think that there is a huge difference between that and a 6 week embryo.
13 year olds in general are not fully developed. Maybe she was able to carry her pregnancy and live but it certainly didnt come without risks. She even admitted it herself. I think this girls mother made a poor judgement call allowing her daughter to carry a pregnancy at such a young age. and yes, there are some so called prolifers who would rather see a woman risk her life to save there baby. It happens all the time. Look at the recent situation in Ireland. Even the catholic church wont allow lifesaving abortions in their hospitals. I would not allow my 13 year old to make that decision for herself. I do not think abortion is traumatizing in general, its a surgical procedure. I had one at 8 weeks and I have no trauma issues. If my daughter was older, even around 16-17 and was hellbent on keeping her baby I would have a different stance on the matter as it wouldnt be as risky. !3 year olds should be playing with barbies, not giving birth. This aricle romanticizes teen pregnancy and makes it seem like having her rapists baby was a fairy tale. There are certain situations where the choice should be made by someone else as to whether a girl/woman should have an abortion, and this is one of them. SOmeone probably manipulated her and convinced her to have this baby and that it would be her saving grace to all the trauma she went through. She was probably so confused and traumatized that she would have done whatever her mother and the people she looked up to told her. she was obviously brainwashed by her rapist, so this proves that she was vulnerable and impressionable. When I was 13 I know I was very impressionable adn vulnerable. Its scary that you are all not seeing the other side to this, and not questioning this story. Its womderful that the mother immediatly reported the rape but how do you not know that your husband is molesting your daughters? she probably wasnt that approachable if it took that long for the girl to tell her mom. I seriously wonder what type of person the mother is.
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I have no problem with rape victims keeping their baby. I have a problem with 13 year olds carrying a pregnancy to term. Keeping the baby is always an option, doesnt mean its always the best one. Thisstory is so slanted and manipulated its almost criminal. Its made to sound like a fairy tale. A 13 year old with a baby is not a happy thing. I am glad that Anna is in a loving relationship , but I feel she was robbed of a childhood on so many levels. While its not right to force abortion on women, its also not right for a 13 year old to carry a baby and raise it. By the way, I asked to see the ultrasound when I had an abortion. It was a dot on a screen. Yes, it was a developing human but hardley a baby and did not change my choice.
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Teen pregnancy should not be romanticized, we agree on that. It’s a serious thing and shouldn’t happen, especially not through rape. That doesn’t mean that babies conceived by teens are not human and don’t deserve legal protection.
Pro-lifers who think that women should die for an unborn fetus (that can’t even survive without her) are not “pro-life”, they are more just anti-abortion. I think that’s a sick point of view.
Sexual abusers are experts at hiding their activities from the parents/other adults in children’s lives. I would hesitate to condemn this mother, especially since she reported it immediately when her daughter came to her from help. Mine told me it was my fault, so I am inclined to believe that this mother did her best to protect her daughter and didn’t know about the abuse before she was told.
Again, it puts lie to the pro-choice you claim, if you think that thirteen-year-olds have no say in whether they carry their baby to term. If you ever want to read up on the damage that forced abortion can do to someone, you might change your mind.
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WOW!!! I’m thinking in between here. In my younger years, late teens to mid twenties, I was very much Pro-Life! Maybe it had a little to do with my issues with conceiving? Now, I am 40 years old and THANK GOD I have never been faced with a situation like Anna and her family. Today, I continue to struggle with Pro-Life/Pro-Choice. Both arguments hold merit. As a woman, I feel it is my right to do as I see fit with my body. As a Momma of three wonderful boys, a friend to an individual like Josey and a friend to others that have been abused, I just cannot imagine having to be faced with the situation that Anna was faced with. It seems that Anna was blessed with her Mom and her very mature way of thinking at only 13 yrs old. And right or wrong, whether we agree or disagree, it was their choice. I was moved to tears reading the story, thinking “Yes, this is why we should be Pro-Life!” but who are we to force ANYONE into making such a decision? I PRAY that anyone forced with a decision like abortion and/or adoption, has an ounce of thinking like Anna! And people around her for support!
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“I am glad that Anna is in a loving relationship , but I feel she was robbed of a childhood on so many levels.”
Of course she was robbed of a childhood! Her rapist stole it right from her. It’s absolutely terrible. Killing her baby against her wishes, however, wouldn’t give her childhood back to her or make the torment of it go away.
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Jack, I agree with most everything you said. I think its wrong to condem the raoe victim. My heart breaks fro her and her child. I hope that her child grew up knowing nothing but love. Heres a view point I think most of you will have a hard time wrapping your heads around but just try to see things from my prespective. My mom was raped repeatedly by her father. I may have been the product of that rape, I dont know as my mom died when I was 13 and never told anyone who my father was. my mom was 19 when she had me. She struggled to take care of my brother and I, she wasnt ‘ all there’ , as abuse and trauma took a toll on her rational thinking. she actually denied her pregnancy with me until she was around 5 mos pregnant. I wish my mother had an abrtion. Here is why: She would have had a chance to get her life together without the responsibility of having a baby. I would not have been born to be passed around to faimily members and not know a real home. I would have simply not existed and my mom, who i miss and love so dearly, may have had a better chance at having an easier life. I wouldnt be angry or hurt bc I simply would not be here or existed. I love my mother that much where if her having an abortion would have meant that she had an easier life, thats what I would want for her. I have not had an easy life. I have no family to call my own, I suffer from depression and struggle. Would I kill myself no? absolutly not, I want to live, I am here so I will make the most of it. But if I could have chosen for my mom, I would have wanted her to have an abortion and non of the suffereing I have been through would have happened.
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Mary Ann, In no way am I shaming the rape victim. My heart goes out to her. I t was not Anna or Jossys fault in anyway.
Jack, I think that this story DOES romanticize teenage pregnancy. It is very biased and emotionally charged.
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“Heres a view point I think most of you will have a hard time wrapping your heads around but just try to see things from my prespective. My mom was raped repeatedly by her father. I may have been the product of that rape, I dont know as my mom died when I was 13 and never told anyone who my father was. my mom was 19 when she had me. She struggled to take care of my brother and I, she wasnt ‘ all there’ , as abuse and trauma took a toll on her rational thinking. she actually denied her pregnancy with me until she was around 5 mos pregnant.”
I’m really sorry that your mother went through that, and for what you and your brother went through with your mom so damaged. I truly am.
“. I wish my mother had an abrtion. Here is why: She would have had a chance to get her life together without the responsibility of having a baby. I would not have been born to be passed around to faimily members and not know a real home. I would have simply not existed and my mom, who i miss and love so dearly, may have had a better chance at having an easier life. I wouldnt be angry or hurt bc I simply would not be here or existed.”
I know that was a really tough life. But your mom having an abortion wouldn’t have made it so you simply didn’t exist, it would have killed you. The same could be said of if she had killed you as a newborn, you know? You probably wouldn’t care or know about it, but I think most of us can see that it’s wrong to kill newborns to give their mothers a better life or to save them from a struggle. I had a difficult life as well, no childhood to speak of, but it wouldn’t have been right to kill me to “save” me from it, or to save my mother from the pain of my birth or from having to care for me, much as she hated doing so. We can’t legalize the killings of some humans because their parent’s circumstances or their possible futures.
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“Jack, I think that this story DOES romanticize teenage pregnancy. It is very biased and emotionally charged.”
I really don’t think it does. It’s just the personal story of one woman who went through something horrific. I don’t think I understand why you think it’s glorifying teen pregnancy. It’s just showing someone’s personal story.
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@Sarah
It may be hard to believe that a Mother doesn’t know when/if her child is being abused, physically/sexually but these perps are very good manipulators and even the best Mother can be clueless. It isn’t fair to generalize all Moms that way. It can happen!
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Thank you Jack for your compassion. I see what you are saying, and not everyone has a good or easy life.but if obvious hardshitp, abuse, neglect or a difficult life that lacks love can be prevented it should be. But it should be left up to the woman to decide. In Annas case, I think he mom failed her by allowing her to give birth. I think she failed as a mother to not do right by her daughter and salvage whatever little of her childhood she had left by allowing her to become a mom when she ws still a baby herself. I wouldnt be surprised if Anna was manipulated to keep her baby by her mother or other close relative. Here is where we differ: I think it victimizes the woman to force her to carry a pregnancy and it victimizes a child to allow them to carry a pregnancy period. Where you think abortion victimizes the woman. I really think there is a hhuge difference between killing a newborn infant and a 6, 7,8, etc week fetus/embryo.
Heres a question for you, If Ana had an abortion, becasue she felt she was too young and just couldnt bear the though of carrying her rapists baby and didnt want to risk her health and body, Would you support her choice or call her a murderer for not taking that risk?
I do support a grown woman to decide if she want to raise her rapists baby, thats he choice and shouldnt be forced into an abortion. a 13 year old is a different story.
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Sarah, I’m sorry for all you went through as a child. It helps explain your viewpoint.
If you were conceived in rape and incest, which is at least possible, maybe you can take comfort in the fact that the vast majority of prolifers would clebrate and honor your life now and when you were a little fetus. You deserved and deserve to live, and you are not the cause of your mother’s problems. In all likelihood, you were a bright spot in her life.
The major difference between the tragedy in your background and Anna’s, it seems to me, is that Anna has found much more peace. I wish you the same.
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“Thank you Jack for your compassion. I see what you are saying, and not everyone has a good or easy life.but if obvious hardshitp, abuse, neglect or a difficult life that lacks love can be prevented it should be”
Yes, it should be prevented. Not through killing anyone though. People in abusive situations should be given help to leave and start a better life, people in poverty can be helped. It doesn’t generally require death to get people out of bad situations.
“. In Annas case, I think he mom failed her by allowing her to give birth. I think she failed as a mother to not do right by her daughter and salvage whatever little of her childhood she had left by allowing her to become a mom when she ws still a baby herself. I wouldnt be surprised if Anna was manipulated to keep her baby by her mother or other close relative. ”
Well that’s your opinion. There are women who have talked about being forced to abort as young teenagers and the damage it caused them, instead of salvaging any of their childhood. And did you miss how Anna’s stepfather aborted her first child against her will, how it hurts her?
I don’t see a difference in killing an infant or a fetus. Same human, different level of development.
” Heres a question for you, If Ana had an abortion, becasue she felt she was too young and just couldnt bear the though of carrying her rapists baby and didnt want to risk her health and body, Would you support her choice or call her a murderer for not taking that risk?”
I don’t call women who abort murderers, ever. I wouldn’t support her choice though.
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Any name calling will not cause me to change my beliefs–that would require rational argument. Something pro-lifers don’t have.
I did not say most people who are abused become rapists, You made that up and implied I said it. Then went on to make fun of something I did not say. The majority of your other arguments follow this same pattern (straw man argument).
There are hundreds of other bad behaviors that are created as a result of being abused for 8 years. YOU WANT TO COVER THIS PART UP. You and others who share your beliefs will never admit this. It would ruin the mental fantasies going on in your head about wonderful children. Children require work and effort–something a 13 year old will not do. They can’t even take are of themselves. That’s why they have 2 parents–to help do this.
I am emphasizing the importance of environment, unlike you. From reading your post, when it comes to discussing genetics and environment you don’t know which which end is up. You talk in meaningless generalities. Like a paid shill–no argument ever satisfies you.
While I agree with poster Sarah’s points, I believe anyone who was raped ought to be made to have an abortion as soon as possible. That would be the right and moral thing to do. I am not O.K. being in a family raising a rapist’s child. I would not give it one penny.
To make that 13 year old carry that fetus to term is a forced degradation upon women after 8 years of withering abuse.
You should look up the statistics of illegitimate children, they are mainly delinquent.
Being bullheaded and unable to compromise is only one of their bad characteristics.
Why do you think such unwanted children are called delinquents? Because they have warm qualities??
What group of people/or society do you think the mass of delinquents comes from??
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@ Josey
You need to take a good hard look at the way you think. There is boundless evidence that abortion only exacerbates the pain, and that a baby can help heal it. A child is never a curse, no matter where its from. It’s incredibly horrible and thoughtless to judge someone and demand their DEATH because of their genetics. again, there is so much proof that genetics do not decide ones destiny. maybe you could try HELPING people in bad situations so they don’t become “delinquents”. I would like you to try to say that to the face of a rape victim’s child. I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t be too happy with you. May you open your mind and know the truth someday.
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Congratulations Josey!
You, at least, are honest about what “pro-choice” really is. And it’s not about choice at all, is it? Did you know that Planned Parenthood and Margaret Sanger began because of a firm belief in eugenics? That if the poor people and the black people and all those other lowlife type of families (her view not mine, obviously) would just stop having their delinquent babies, the world would be such a better place!
It was the reason for legalizing birth control, it was the reason for legalizing abortion. They wanted to control the population by making a way for the type of people they didn’t like to stop having children.
Forced abortion, to ensure that, is the next logical step. You are not pro-choice, you are pro-death of people you don’t like. It’s called eugenics.
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Why didn’t you kill yourself earlier in your life, Sarah? If you really feel that way about burdening your mother, it doesn’t seem like you *really* would’ve rather forfeited your life if you’re still here. Abortion doesn’t prevent a life from happening (contraception does that). Abortion kills a life that has already begun. Regardless of how small, your child was your living child, until you had them aborted, then they became your dead child.
“A rapist’s child” is also their mother’s child. My daughter’s life didn’t decrease in value after her father started raping me regularly further on in our relationship. She deserves the right to live every bit as much as you or I do, and that goes for her earliest stages of life. Your opinion that a child isn’t a child early on in their existence is not factual in the least, and it’s obvious you have some severe issues with things that have happened in your life with which you’re having trouble coping.
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Sarah, your comment about her sotry looking like a fairytale is soooo wrong. This girl was wronged and she made the absolute best out of a horrible situation. Our grandparents and great grandparents and humans before them had babies at that age all the time. It was the norm! Most of us wouldn’t be here if they hadn’t. Yes there were a lot of women that died during child birth back then but so did the women in their 20’s! So don’t try to use that an an excuse. You are a negative, blind person. You think your abortion hasn’t affected you? WRONG! It obviously has and for the worse! I would risk my own life if it meant saving the life of my child, born or unborn. But then, look who I’m talking to. You helped kill babies so life means nothing to you anyway. Get some help.
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Sarah,
Read Anna’s story again. It happened the way it happened. It is what it is.
Your “what ifs” are pointless.
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Your “what ifs” are pointless.
No they’re not. They’re constructed by her for her own consolation at her deadly choices.
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“I believe anyone who was raped ought to be made to have an abortion as soon as possible. That would be the right and moral thing to do.”
Your post is very troubling. Why do you want to impose your own values on everyone else? Legislating morality is evil! What about women’s rights? What about reproductive privacy?
(the pro-choice side has no sense of irony)
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It is amazing how it suddenly becomes a baby when it’s wanted, or when you can put “rapist’s” in front of it.
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Anna & Mel, today I am going to pray for you and for all those women who are or have been abused and became pregnant.
That God may always be at your side to console and heal you, help you with your child and that you may accept His mercy, if you have aborted him/her!
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To Jack and Sarah
I would like to start by saying, I am pro-choice!
On my 7th birthday my father took me in a room, and told me that he had “something to teach me”. He said that these were things I needed to know before I grew up and got married. On my seventh birthday I was robbed of my childhood. This continued until I was 12 years old. I never once told my mother! I was told on a regular basis that if I told her the cops would take me away from her. I was seven, and had been taught my whole life to believe the things my mother and father had told me. At twelve I finally got the courage to tell my mother what was going on, she took me to the police department and we began the process of charging my father. He was put in jail where he remained until he was sentenced to 17 years in the state pen. I have never once thought to blame my mother for what happened to me, why would I blame her because I failed to tell her? That does not make her a bad mother!! She done what was right once she was informed of what was going on.
When I was 13 years old when I found myself not knowing what it was like to truely be loved. I started looking for love in the only place I knew how to get it, sex!! The first boy I ever slept with on my own free will got me pregnant. Ofcourse his first thought was for me to get an abortion. However once I told my mother what was going on, she informed me it was my choice. She let me know that she did not believe in abortion, but if that was my choice she would support me. I chose to keep my baby. The father was shipped to another state by his family and had no contact with me for a couple of years. Nine months, and ninety pounds later, I had endured something no child should ever have to go through. The comments, the dirty looks, the whispers behind my back where horrible. I cried myself to sleep on a regular basis, simply because people just had to let me know how stupid I was. One day before my 14th birthday I gave birth to a beautiful, healthy 7lb 4oz baby boy. I named him Christopher.
Maybe my mom was wrong, maybe she should have made me get an abortion or give him up for adoption. That is your opinion to form after reading this. I think my mother done allot of things wrong. However her decision to allow me the right to my own choice was not one of them. You see I was almost an abortion myself. My mom done allot of drugs and bad things when she was pregnant with me. So much so that she did not even realize she was pregnant until she was six months. She went to an abortion clinic and a docter refused the abortion, simply because she was to far along. That man, or woman saved my life. However I understand what was once my mothers decision to abort me. She figured I was going to come out all messed up mentally or physically, or whatever she thought, it was still her decision. I wish my mother would have continued to support me and allow me to finish school after I had my son. However she fell into a deep depression and chose to go back to drugs. So at 14 I was on my own me and my son.
To say that my life has not been easy is an understatement. I would not wish the struggles and pain I have endured on any one person ever!! No one deserves to go through some of the things I have had to go through in my life. But it was my choice. I chose to have my son, instead of aborting him. I chose to keep my son after I was kicked out on my own, instead of give him up for adoption. It was my choice to believe that everything happens for a reason, and that I was chosen by god to do something that was much bigger then me. It was all my choice, and only my choice, and I am the only person in this world who has ever had to deal with the consequences of my choices.
It has not been an easy road, however who really ever has it easy? We all have our trial and tribulations we face in life. Some are perceived as worse then others, but are they really any worse or any easier then the next persons? And when did any one of us become holy enough to judge another person for their actions, or their choice? I don’t know about anyone else here, but I feel that the only being big enough to judge me for my choices is GOD. He is the one I have to answer to, he is the one who will determine whether or not I lived my life the right way, and until that day when he calls me to his beautiful home I will continue to live my life the way I chose to. So please understand I did not post this to get attacked by one side or the other. I have never posted this story anywhere. My friends and my family are the only people until now that know this about me. I am not looking for anyone’s opinion on the choices I made. To be honest I don’t really know why I chose to post this today, maybe because its so close to a anniversary of mine, maybe I felt I needed to finally put my story out there after all of these years, maybe I was meant to read this story and tell mine today. For whatever reason I decided to comment on this please know it was my choice, and I would appreciate it if y’all did not criticize my choice, or my story as I would never do that to you.
February 18th 1999 was the hardest day of my life. I went through something no one in this world should ever have to go through. I am not going to go into all the details because that would just be to long and to hard right now. However on this day at about noon my house caught on fire. My son and I ended up trapped in the house. I remember yelling for him and him screaming back he was scared, but I could not see him. I remember the 911 operator telling me to get out of the house, and me refusing to do so until I could get my son. Then I remember nothing. Not a single thing, until I woke up I. A hospital several days later. My mother was at my side crying and I had no clue of where I was or what was happening. For a brief moment I had no memory of the fire. Then it hit me like a ton of bricks. I had the worse pain inside of me, as I looked at my mother and asked where Christopher was. Hers tears kept falling, they where getting bigger and bigger with each breath. This is when they told me that Christopher had died. He was four and half years old. I begged a god that at the time I did not believe in to take me as well, or to trade lives he was so young and precious, he had his whole life ahead of him, and to this day I would gladly trade places with him. The 18th of this month makes 14 years he has been gone, and there is not a day that goes by that I don’t miss him or think of him, and I know one I will see him again.
On the two year anniversary of his death I found out I was pregnant again. The doctors told me to abort the baby because at the time I was looking at getting a full hysterectomy due to allot of female problems. I denied their request because once again this was my choice not there’s. I was later told I had no other option other then to abort my baby because she was in my tubes and she was going to kill me. Once again I chose not to listen to the doctors. They told me I was stupid and she was going to die or kill me or both of us would die. However I still chose to have her. She turned 11 last October. I guess you could say they where wrong. She did not die because of my choice, I did not die because of my choice. I did almost did while I was pregnant with her, but I was willing to accept that fate if it meant she would live, and today 11 years later we are both happy and healthy, because I chose to take a chance. As for my daughter, well she is everything I was never. She is beautiful, smart, funny, and she has everything I never had. She has stability and parents who love her unconditionally, parents who support the decisions she makes. And because of the choice I made, I have her.
Once again ease I ow that I did not post this message to condemn anyone person here for their actions, and I would appreciate if no one condemned mine. I just simy felt the need to share my story after keeping it in for fourteen years. I would prefer my story only stay in this page. If I decide one day to share this with the rest of the world then it will be my choice. Thank you all for your time.
Sincerely, I am glad I was given a choice!!
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I was raped at 13 , had the baby at 14 (a boy), and gave him up for adoption when he was 5 hours old. It was the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. To say that I should have automatically had an abortion just because of my age would have robbed me of the healing his life brought to me. I could rest easy every night because I knew I didn’t murder my baby. I would have grieved the loss of life more than the rape had I aborted him. Adoption is a loving way to care for your baby when you (or your parents) can’t take care of the baby.
For Sarah to condemn this young woman just for choosing life is wrong. We each have our own lives to live and we have to live with our choices. Why is it that women who are pro-choice tend to NOT believe in free choice for others? It’s not truly “choice” unless a woman is free to choose what is best for her, or her child if the child gets pregnant at a young age like I did.
I have the utmost respect for my Mom and women like Anna. My Mom made the decision we were going to continue on with the pregnancy because it wasn’t the baby’s fault and he deserved to live as much as I did even though I was conceived within a faithful marriage. She endured many comments about how stupid she was for making our family go through the shame that an un-planned pregnancy can bring, especially with such a young girl. We were condemned by so many people simply because we chose life. I, like Anna, had to hear many rude comments from classmates, adults and people I didn’t know just because they didn’t agree with what choice I made.
Letting your baby live, regardless of whether you keep the baby like Anna did, or giving your baby up for adoption like I did, is part of the healing process for rape victims. Too many women are simply told to have an abortion without looking at the ramifications that choice will bring to them. Shame, guilt, regret and other emotions are piled on an already fragile woman who was robbed of every dignity by the rapist. Why not let the baby live and find healing through that new little life? Why not sleep peacefully every night knowing you are not a murderer in addition to a victim? You make the choice to have power over the rapist and what he did to you and then you start to heal. Forgiveness is also very freeing and healing as well.
I’m thankful to say I got married young (at 18), found The Lord in my early 20’s and have gone on to have a family of my own. I’m currently pregnant with mine and my husband’s 6th child. I was raped and I dealt with the shame but I am free now, and have been for a long time. Praise be to God for redeeming my life!
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So God allows 13 year olds to be raped just so that he can show us his love? This is hard for me to believe.
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I thank God for you Anna and your precious daughter Josey!
Your story is amazing and that photo of you both? Breathtaking.
I am so grateful for you and your story and so glad that you shared it with Jill.
Love wins.
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What a beautiful story of an evil act make into good. Bless you young lady.
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“Choices”,
These are PEOPLE we are talking about, not just “choices”. The choice of abortion ends a child’s life, and that shouldn’t be a legal choice to make. Our lives should be protected by law on their own. Our lives should not hang in the balance of our mother’s whims.
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So I’m not sure if this was sort of glossed over by Sara when she “read” the story, but I feel the need to point out that this young girl did have an abortion. At age 12. A full year before she got pregnant with the child that was kept.
Abortion did not stop her rapist. It didn’t stop her abuse, it didn’t keep another child from being conceived in such a monstrous way. So Sara, to you I say this: Mandatory reporting laws are only “mandatory” if you’re not Planned Parenthood or an abortion clinic. Sure, they should be reporting, but clearly they don’t, or didn’t in this case. Abortion clinics look the other way more often than not, and that only enables and encourages a rapist and abuser to keep abusing. It destroys all evidence of his crime.
So now this lovely woman has endured rape, abuse, coerced abortion and guilt, and very young childbirth. This “broken” woman is far stronger than I could ever be, and I’m proud of her.
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Wait, I apparently had to brush up on reading comprehension. I read this story last night and just read the comments today.
She did not have an “official”, clinical abortion, her father caused a miscarriage. I still stand by what I say about mandatory reporting though.
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TJ said: So God allows 13 year olds to be raped just so that he can show us his love? This is hard for me to believe.
No TJ. You got it wrong.
God abhors all sexual abuse (as a matter a fact He commanded us not to engage in it) as well as killing of innocent babies. However, through God’s grace, absolutely horrible things like Ann’s experience can bring forth very positive events.
Think about the multitude of positive things that came out as a consequence of WWII.
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No. TJ, the thinking is that god allows us to choose to do evil things because otherwise we could not possibly choose to do good things. The rapist chose evil. The rape survivor chose good. Neither act cancels the other out. Josey does not justify or absolve the rape any more than a child conceived in the months after a miscarriage makes the miscarriage into a “good thing.” Bad things happen and we are still free to choose and experience good in the aftermath. I’m agnostic and even I can grasp that.
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Xalisae,
You are right!! We are talking about people here. I never said that I was pro-life nor did I say I was pro-abortion. I simply stated that I was pro-choice, and just because I am pro-choice does not mean that I agree with women having abortions, it simply means that I believe that every woman has the right to chose no matter what there choice. If you read all of my story you would see that it is obvious that I am not pro-abortion. If I was then why exactly would I have risked my life not once but twice to give birth to two children that the world condemned, one because of my age and the other because she was supposed to kill me. Choices was a word I used to describe my story, I did not intend for the word to replace or represent people, and had I known that was how somebody was going to take it I would have chose another word to use. I expected to get some kind of response to my story, whether it was good or bad, however I never thought it would be because of a word I used. If anything I thought that telling my story after all of these years could show some young girl somewhere in the world reading this, that they have a choice. They don’t have to get an abortion just because society deems young pregnancies as bad. I had a choice, and I chose to have my son. At 13 years old and raise him and when he was four years old I had to say goodbye and lay him to rest. I chose to have my daughter, when the doctors said I was stupid because she would end my life, due to being in my tubes. She is 11 today and I am watching her accept her a honor roll award this morning. I am grateful for the choices I have made and I don’t regret any part of my life. I am sorry you chose to pick one word from my story and try to make me out to be a bad person, or a person who believes that killing baby’s is ok, I was simply telling my story as many have done before me on this page.
To who ever may read this please know, I believe everyday we wake up and we are faced with choices. Some are for the good and some are for the bad, but it is our choice to make, and no one person in this world has the right to judge you for the choice you make. There are always other options out there, and though they may be rough, you are strong and you can get through anything you put your mind to, why because that is the way GOD CHOSE to make you, and he is the only one who is mighty enough to judge you for your choices!!!
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She immediately packed up my brother, sister, and I and took us to our Aunt’s house. From there she called the police.
I am so glad to see that this b@stard was brought to justice! I can’t tell you how many times the mother believes her boyfriend against her own daughter’s word. I’ve even heard women say tht their daughters “seduced” these creeps. You never but a man over your own children. NEVER!
It always amazes me how people say they are prochoice but are shocked and offfended when someone they think who “shouldn’t” gives birth does. I know of a terrible, terrible case where a young woman, aged 15, was being. abused by her mother, so she went to live with her grandfather. This monster raped and got her pregnant. The girl was a devout Catholic and wanted to have the baby, which she did. My coworkers thought this was awful and were incensed that she did not have an abortion and even said that her mother should have “made her” have the abortion (the grandfather was deported and is now in jail for a looong time).
You should look up the statistics of illegitimate children, they are mainly delinquent.
Being bullheaded and unable to compromise is only one of their bad characteristics.
Why do you think such unwanted children are called delinquents? Because they have warm qualities??
Why do you think such unwanted children are called delinquents? Because they have warm qualities??
Many people do not realize that there are two streams in the child welfare system: the dependent stream and the delinquent stream. Dependent children are in the system because there parents cannot care for them — there may be abuse or neglect, the parents may be incarcerated, etc. The goal for these families is usually reunification, unless there are mitigating circumstances. Deilinquent children usually have committed some crime, which can range from possession of marijuana to stealing cars to homicide, so there’s a broad range. Many of them are decent kids that have made some bad choices and many are able to turn things around. I’m sure you’ve heard of Mark Wahlberg, the popular actor. He was in constant trouble with the law in his youth — in other words, he was a juvenile delinquent — but he turned out okay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Wahlberg
You should look up the statistics of illegitimate children, they are mainly delinquent.
Delinquent or dependent? There is a difference. And once again, please supply a link supporting these statements. I have worked with delinquent children, they are in the system for many reasons, and they are not the monsters you think they are.
What group of people/or society do you think the mass of delinquents comes from??
Yeah, its those damn niggers, right? Do us all a favor and take your hateful, unininformed rants to Stormfront.
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Alexandra, well said!
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“I am sorry you chose to pick one word from my story and try to make me out to be a bad person, or a person who believes that killing baby’s is ok...”
Well, you’re supporting the choice of legal abortion being available, so whether or not you think it’s “ok” is irrelevant. I can’t understand any parent supporting legal abortion.
“Yeah, I’d NEVER have one of MY kids killed…but that sort of treatment is plenty fine enough for other peoples’ kids, if they so choose.”
What makes that line of thought reasonable, to you, Choices?
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So sad to visit these comments today.
So sad to see how many people insist that killing is a answer to life’s problems.
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Xalisae, wow I have to give it to you, once again you have completely misinterpreted my words, and rearranged them to make me look like a bad person!! Once again I did not say I was pro-abortion, nor did I say that think it is ok for a woman to kill her child!! I guess I should have worded it differently, maybe I should say I am am pro-GOD instead. Whether you believe it or not I am against abortion, but I also believe that each person has right to make there own choices, because they are the ones that have to face GOD and explain there choices in the end. I do not have the right to judge anyone for there choices, and if you believe in god then you should not judge anyone for the choices either, because god is the only one I have to answer to, and I am the only person who has to live with the consequences of my choices.
John 8:7
King James Version (KJV)
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
We all have sinned in our life and for you sit there and condemn me because of a word I chose to use is not very god like of you. Even god understood we are free to make our own choices whether they are good or bad, and that no one has the right to judge a person based on there choices, because we are all sinners once in our life.
On a side note please know this, I lay my head down every night and I pray. I pray and I ask god to forgive me for my sins, I pray for god to show me what exactly it is he has In store for my life, I pray and I ask god to hug my little boy who’s life ended way to early, I ask him to kiss him and remind him daily that his mommy loves him and misses him more and more with each day that passes, I ask god to watch over my daughter, my miracle, and give me the strength to teach her what he would want her to do, not what I want her to do, or who I want her to be. So go ahead and condemn me for a word I chose to use, condemn me for being honest and saying what and how I feel about this whole conversation, but do not put words in my mouth, or twist the words I use against me, just because I chose to say I am pro-choice instead of saying I am pro-life, and tonight when I lay my head down to rest and I say my nightly prayers; I will pray for you, and ask god to show you that you really had no right to judge me when you don’t know half my story.
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Sarah,
You assume that had your mother had an abortion that her life would have been better. Sarah, your mother’s life was a mess not because of you but because she was being abused. You had nothing to do with that abuse. Do you really believe that the effects of her abuse would have magically gone away had she never been pregnant with you? Whether you were born or not, another human being used their free will and chose to harm your mother physically and emotionally. That is something that no other human being, be it a child or adult, can simply take away. It takes love, support, validation, and oftentimes counseling to realize that your mom (or you) were not to blame for the abuse. I highly encourage you to get help, so that you can realize that.
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Alexandra,
Absolutely!! :)
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Choices,
I’m sorry for all the difficulty you’ve experienced in your life. In choosing life for your precious children, you chose right. I think it’s hard to understand your story because you began with these words:
“I would like to start by saying, I am pro-choice!”
Perhaps you are unaware, but “pro-choice” is the label chosen by those that support legal abortion. Not every pro-choicer would choose to have an abortion themselves, but they believe that abortion should remain a legal option for all women. That type of thinking is the antithesis of pro-life thought, which is that every human, born or unborn, deserves the right to life.
So your actions have been pro-life actions, yet you identify as “pro-choice”. That is confusing.
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Choices,
Thank you for sharing your story, I imagine it was pretty difficult. My dad did much the same to me as your’s did, and I’m really glad your mom believed you and got you out of that situation. And promiscuity is a pretty common side effect of sexual abuse, so it’s not exactly surprising that you starting having sex so young. And I can’t even tell you how sorry I am about your son’s death. I have a four-year-old now and I can’t imagine losing him. I’m seriously sorry that happened to Christopher. At the same time I am happy for you that you have a healthy daughter, even after a difficult pregnancy.
My only question is, even though you know from personal experience that people can come through terrible situations, for some reason you support people aborting their children. I don’t see why you think that children don’t deserve at least the start at life, even if that life may not be what other people think is acceptable (see: magma/josey’s opinion on illegitimate children).
Edit: Read your second comment and now I am thoroughly confused. Do you agree with abortion being a legal, moral choice or no? It seems like you are “personally pro-life, politically pro-choice” or something like that.
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” I am so glad to see that this b@stard was brought to justice! I can’t tell you how many times the mother believes her boyfriend against her own daughter’s word. I’ve even heard women say tht their daughters “seduced” these creeps. You never but a man over your own children. NEVER!”
I thought for most of my life that *most* mothers would blame their kids for being abused, because not only did mine, pretty much every abused runaway on the streets had a mom who allowed the boyfriend or husband, or uncle or brother, to abuse them even after the kid told her what was going on. I didn’t even realize that it was more normal for mothers to love and protect their children until I was an adult.
I am ignoring “Josey”‘s comment because that person is gross, I am pretty sure they are a troll, and they seriously used the name of the child who was born out of abuse to say their disgusting crap. Don’t let him/her stress you out, phillymiss.
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I didn’t even realize that it was more normal for mothers to love and protect their children until I was an adult.
Jack, when I was growing up I thought it was “normal” for mothers to try to crush their kids behind the door for wetting the bed and threaten to cut their “p*sser” off, try to drive them into rivers, and leave them out in the freezing cold of a western New York winter. I thought every kid had to stop their mother from putting her head in the oven and hide all the knives in the house so she wouldn’t try to kill one of us. But it isn’t.
I was so afraid to have children because I thought that I would do all of the monstrous things my mother — who, BTW, was seriously mentally ill (my father was more of a verbally abusive type) did to me, but I didn’t. I think I mentioned that my daughter once told me that I was a “good mom” and that was the most wonderful thing anyone EVER said to me.
No, I’m not stressed out about this Josey person, I just get tired of people talking about how abortion would be such a great solution to all the kids in foster care or the juvenile justice system, especially since their “arguments” often have racial overtones. I even heard someone say that severely mentally disabled people should be aborted because when the men reach puberty they are going to have all these uncontrollable sexual urges and go around raping women. Uh no, doesn’t happen.
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” Jack, when I was growing up I thought it was “normal” for mothers to try to crush their kids behind the door for wetting the bed and threaten to cut their “p*sser” off, try to drive them into rivers, and leave them out in the freezing cold of a western New York winter. I thought every kid had to stop their mother from putting her head in the oven and hide all the knives in the house so she wouldn’t try to kill one of us. But it isn’t. ”
Wow your mom is as mentally disturbed as mine, I remember you talking about her before. Do you still talk to her? I think it’s terribly sad how much kids normalize really abusive situations, so that they don’t even understand that it isn’t okay to be treated like that.
” I was so afraid to have children because I thought that I would do all of the monstrous things my mother — who, BTW, was seriously mentally ill (my father was more of a verbally abusive type) did to me, but I didn’t. I think I mentioned that my daughter once told me that I was a “good mom” and that was the most wonderful thing anyone EVER said to me.”
Yeah I remember you mentioning that about your daughter and that is amazing. I never wanted kids, to be honest, because every single generation on both sides of my family was terribly abusive to their children and I was afraid of passing down something broken to them. Plus I was young when I had my son, barely twenty, and I literally had no idea what I was doing. I am glad my in-laws were around, they were a big help.
I agree with you about how people are so pro-abortion about children in foster care or otherwise terrible situations, and it does seem to be racially biased a lot of times. We should have less of “those people”, they should totally be aborted because they’ll turn out bad. Because abortion has totally lessened child abuse, and poverty, and every other social problem they claimed it would fix. Yeah, no.
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To jack and lrning,
Thank you both for reading my comments/story and replying with your kind words, also thank you for asking me to explain my reasoning for saying I am pro choice, instead of instantly assuming, and judging me for my choice of words. I will try to explain the best way I know how.
When I say I am pro choice I am not just talking about whether I believe it is right or not for a woman to have an abortion. I do not personally believe that it is right for a woman to abort her baby, however I also do not believe anyone else has the right to judge or tell someone what they can or can not do with there life. Because in the end we all have to face our maker and explain to him and only him why we felt we had no other other choice then to do whatever it may have been we done.
When I think about whether or not a woman should have the choice to abort her child, I try to look at like this.
I don’t believe that guns kill people, I believe bad people with guns kill people. I have a concealed weapons permit, and I do not want anyone to take my right to protect my family away from me. I am capable of rationalizing the situation, if the government bans all guns, that is not going to stop bad people from obtaining them and killing people, however it will either cause good people to be deemed as bad because they wanted the right to protect there family so they got a gun illegally, or it will make bad people worse, because now they can scare a once protected family by waving a illegal gun around and it could possibly result in more innocent people dying.
I don’t believe that spoons make people fat, however I understand if we were to ban them, people would still find a way to over eat.
I don’t believe that cars make people drive drunk, however I know it would be really hard for me to pick my daughter up from school if we banned them.
I guess what I am trying to say is that yes I said I am pro choice not because I believe it is right legally or morally for a woman to kill her unborn child, but because I understand that it is not going to stop the killing of these innocent lives, even if abortion does become illegal. Because as humans we have the ability to make a choice, and sometimes people are unable to see that there is a light at the end of every tunnel. Therefore if they feel like they have no other option but to kill the baby or drive drunk or eat to much or kill innocent people with guns, they will find a way legal or not to do just that. I am pro life when it comes to a baby however I am pro choice when it comes to living our lives, and making our own choices. I would love to think that by making abortion illegal that all women would just stop killing their baby’s, but I don’t. I think that if abortion is illegal and a woman feels she has no other choice she will find a way to kill that baby, and then because there was no medical attention while this was happening she could risk killing herself as well, and in my opinion that is no better then abortion, because now the world had to lose two beautiful people. I am sorry if this is confusing or hard for anyone to understand. It is hard for me to explain how i feel via my thumbs, and i understand that i dont always make since with everything i say. It is simply just my opinion. And for whatever reason when I got on Facebook and I read this story and all the comments I felt the need to give my story to complete strangers for the first time in 14 years. But I did and here we are. I want to say thank you to everyone who read my story and took the time and consideration to respond, the good and the bad.
Sincerely I am still grateful I have the right to chose, even though I may not agree with another persons choice.
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Jesus never spoke of abortion. This is a human inspired doctrine, not divine.
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Choices,
I oppose the legal action of having one’s child killed, regardless of how old the child is or if the perpetrator might hurt themselves in the attempt. If a guy says he’ll kill himself unless you make it legal for him to strangle his 3 year old, you don’t make it legal for him to strangle his 3 year old. I’m all for being allowed to legally make choices, but once those choices harm others, your right to make that choice is forfeit. We have the right to have sex and get pregnant and parent or give that child up for adoption, but once your choice entails killing that child, your legal choices should end. You should have the right to carry a gun if you like (that would be like the right to get pregnant), but once you intend to use that weapon to kill someone else, it’s illegal (abortion). Not all choices should be legal.
TJ,
I’m an atheist. I’d oppose abortion no matter what, for the reasons I’ve cited above.
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I’m all for being allowed to legally make choices, but once those choices harm others, your right to make that choice is forfeit.
Choices, Iaalso believe that people should be able to do what they want with their lives, but in the case of abortion, that choice impacts someone else’s life PERMANENTLY
Jack, I have limited contact with my parents. The sas thing is, they act like everything was so wonderful growing up, like we were the Brady Bunch in technicolor.
This sounds awful but when they die I really don’t feel like going to their funerals.
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Everyone can say whatever they want, have as many different opinions as they want. It is BLACK AND WHITE. Abortion is MURDER…AND…..Anna was brave, and will not have to live with the sad heart that she killed her baby…no words around it..
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I do not believe abortion is murder. I do believe that it is a serious issue, not to be taken lightly. Having worked in a clinic I can tell you right now that every woman I met had thought long and hard about her choice. Abortion is a form of birth control whether its your first or 5th. Obviously, its human, just the very early stages. Its not as important as the woman and no one but the woman has the right to control what she does with her body or her life. Once the woman decides to keep her baby, I believe she is morally and ethically responsible to take care of herself and deveoping fetus, for obvious reasons. As long as its done around the first trimester for ellective abortions, I think that because it is in such an early stage, is not capable of thoughts, feelings or knowing, that the woman is totally superior and has more importance than the embryo/fetus. She is known to people, has a life, maybe other children who depend on her, a reputation, goals, financial problems, abuse, et. Who knows? but its no ones business but hers because she is what matters the most. If she chooses to keep the pregnancy to term and have the baby then she willingly puts herself second. Later term abortions are very sad but I support them because they are usally wanted or planned pregnancy that something went horrible wrong, like the baby has no brain or horrible birth defects that are not compatable with life, or would live a life of pain, being ina vegetative state, suffer, or die before or shortly after birth. Abortion in those circumstances is the most humane choice because it prevents horrible pain and suffering. No one wakes up 6,7,8,9 mos pregnant and says ” I think i will have an abortion today” with a totally healthy fetus. ANy moral doctor would never do such a thing. I do recall talking with a woman who worked with Dr. Tiller. He told her a story of a 12 year old raped by her father who hid the pregnancy until around 7 or 8 mos. He gave her an abortion. I do not know the health of the baby, I want to say there was some serious defect and that the young girl had heart problems. This was the most human thing to do in my opinion. Not all embryos/fetus/pregnancies need to be born. I think we put too much value on human life, over emotionalize (is that even a word?) things instead of looking at them at face value. I think if more woman had abortions the world would have less child abuse, foster children, children and people with severe disabilites and less stress on the already overly taxed system. I am not saying that all people with disabilities should be aborted and have eugenics. China is an example of what NOT to do. But if woman had more access and more OPTIONS, I think things would be better. Why do you have to place such a high sacred value on a human life in the early stages? Why do you feel that a fertilized egg, is more important than the woman who carries it? the first week or so of pregnancy is literally just a bunch of cells dividing. Please dont go on about when the heart forms/beats, and fingers andall the milestones of human development. That doesnt matter to me. I understand that it has the POTENTIAL to grow into a human, I get that. I also understand that many of you are religous and use the bible and God to justify your belief system. Religion is not fact or science and everyones view points about religion and how its interpretted are different so I really think its an invalid argument. But seriously, why does a clump of cells matter that much to you, more so than children who are already here. I am also curious, if you know a woman considering abortion would have a baby who would grow up to be an abortion provider, for example, would you still fight for its rights if you had a crystal ball that could predictthe type of person they would become. Defiently a crazy question but I am just curious. Please save your insults and rude comments, I already know what most of you think about me, It wont change my heart or mind and in fact it just makes me shake my head and prove my points even more. The prolife side is very impossible to compromise with. Oh and one more thing, even though I am very prochoice, I disagree with a previous commment that all rape victims should have a forced aboriton, that goes against everything pro choice stands for. Theres a difference between bringing your 12 or 13 year old to have an abortion and make that choice for her as she is too young to make that adult decision, and forcing it upon a woman. If my daughter became pregnant at even 16, and she insisted on keeping the baby, I would disagree with her but not force her to have an abortion and I would support her.
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Mary Aann, Sorry I didnt reply earlier, there were a lot of responses to reply to. In response to your comment ”
“What’s it to you, anyway, Sarah, if Anna loved her baby and gave her life? Seriously, what’s your issue with her choice? Are you grossed out by a 13 year old having a baby or something? What’s wrong with YOU, Sarah? Why would you have such strong feelings about Anna and Josey’s lives? ”
Well, nothing really. I just feel that it was wrong for a 13 year old to carry a pregnancy to term. Just because she could do it doesnt mean she should, I think its wrong and vicitmizes her more. I think the article was romanticized and there are probably more important details that were left out. It was too fairy-tale ish. A girl is not milested for 8 years, especially at such a young age, and then has all her problems disapear by getting pregnant. It doesnt make things better or heal her. Just as you think its wrong to ever have an abortion, I think its wrong for girls in the situation to NOT have an abortion.
Now, i have to ask you, whats it to you if women have abortions? What does it matter that other women decide to terminate their pregnancy. Just as Anna;s situation has no impact on me whatso ever, neither does any other womans abortion affect you. Thats why I am prochoice because its none of my business. Why are you and other prolifers so emotionally involved in other womens lives, why not be involed in other more important issues like child abuse, or perhaps adopting one of the many children in foster care whose parents didnt want them or had their priorities straight? If a woman knows that an abortion is her best option, who are you or anyone else to tell her its not when you dont even know her or her situation?
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Sarah, just a quick clarification question. Are you saying it would have been common practice at the clinic you worked at to do an abortion on a 13-year old girl being dragged in by her parents (even if she doesn’t want it yourself)?
Additionally, could you please give me the name of the clinic? Thank you.
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Sarah,
Anna’s precious daughter is now 17. To say that she should have aborted her is disgusting. HER DAUGHTER IS HERE! SHE IS ALIVE! What a despicable thing to say!! Anna and Josey have each other and THAT is a miracle that came from something so horrific.
Abortion doesn’t heal rape.
And maybe I missed it but were you raped? Did you have an abortion after you conceived in rape? When was your abortion? Have you found healing in post abortive recovery?
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I think if more woman had abortions the world would have less child abuse, foster children, children and people with severe disabilites and less stress on the already overly taxed system
As a child welfare social worker, I find your attitude towards children in foster care incredibly misinformed, insensitive, and offensive.
First of all, children are placed in out of home care for various reasons. Its oversimplistic to say that their parents just “don’t want” them. You said that no woman gets up in the morning and says they want a late trimester abortion; by the same token, very few parents say “I don’t want my kid so I’m gonna stick him in foster care.” There are many, many reasons wyhy children are placed in foster care. Some parents can’t care for their children due to substance abuse or mental health issues, or incarceration. Incarcertation is a big factor, especially in the black and Latino communities. Sometimes both parents are incarcerated and there are no family members to take care of them. Also, when undocumented aliens are deported back to their country of origin, their children that were born here and are citizens are often placed in foster care. I know we have some problems with illegal immigration, but this is really sad.
Abortion advocates like to point out the “horrors” of foster care, ignoring the fact that there are many wonderful, caring foster parents and the number of children placed in foster care is declining. I have met many dedicated nurturing foster parents. And most children in “the system” don’t spend all their lives there, the average length of time is less than twenty months. Only ten percent spend more than five years in foster care. If you don’t believe me, here are the statistics:
http://www.nationalfostercare.org/latest-numbers-on-children-in-foster-care.html
The goal for foster children is reunification when possible. If not, adoption is an option. And yes, I’m an adoptive mom.
I am not trying to paint a too rosy picture. There are bad foster parents and foster children that age out of the system often had a difficult road ahead of them. I’ve heard some stories that are truly heartbreaking. But yet I have NEVER heard one of these precious kids say “I wish I would have been aborted.” Why do you think they should have been?
Also, I get tired of hearing how abortion “prevents” child abuse. As you probably know, black women have the highest rate of abortion in the country, However, according to the Children’s Defense Fund:
Black children have the highest rates of abuse and neglect. In 2009, nearly 30 percent ofdeaths from child maltreatment were Black children.
I was one of those abused kids. There are lots of sad factors behind this — including poverty and the legacy of slavery — but if we use your reasoning, black children should have the LOWEST rate of abuse since presumably all the “unwanted” ones are being aborted.
Lastly, you asked earlier “what is wrong” with prolifers. Well, I would like to know what is wrong with YOU in that you hold such animosity towards foster kids, the mentally and physically handicapped, etc. What did they ever do to you? Have you ever known any foster parents, foster kids, or handicapped people?
At the YMCA I go to there is a young mentally handicapped guy I’ll call Jack. He also has some facial deformities. He doesn’t live too far from me and I often see him walking his dog. We talk about Philly sports and other things. He likes to swim and is pretty good at it. At this same YMCA there is another young man who came up through the foster system. He goes to school part time and works in the computer lab. He is just like any other goofy twenty-something guy who likes to listen to music, talk about girls, etc.
Both these young people are living their lives and seem happy and productive. Why do you think they should have never been born?
I am also curious, if you know a woman considering abortion would have a baby who would grow up to be an abortion provider, for example, would you still fight for its rights if you had a crystal ball that could predictthe type of person they would become.
Yep. Because change is always possible. If I didn’t believe that, I wouldn’t be in this field, There are many people who have worked in the abortion industry, such as Abby Johnson and the late Bernard Nathanson, who converted and became strong and outspoken champions for life. That’s the whole point of prolife: while there’s life, there’s hope.
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Rock on, phillymiss.((()))
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Oh and when abortion was legalized it was supposed to take care of those tiny little social issues like “unwanted children” and child abuse.
Hmmmmmm. Still waiting after 40 years for that to kick in.
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Religion is not fact or science
neither is ANYTHING you’ve said in your statements.
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As an “Anna” myself, as a 21-yr-old born of teen pregnancy, and as a victim of coerced abortion, I have a lot to say.
But first the facts: someone said earlier that it’s black and white. “I think if more woman had abortions the world would have less child abuse, foster children, children and people with severe disabilites and less stress on the already overly taxed system.”-This is called eugenics; Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, was a huge proponent of eugenics and formed her company as a way to eliminate undesirable people, especially the disabled and minorities. Are people with disabilities somehow less human than we are? Really. Think about that.
The bottom line is that it truly is black and white: from the moment that the sperm and the egg meet, it is no longer two separate cells but a living, functioning human being. The only thing it needs from this point forward, and for the rest of his/her life, is oxygen and food. This has been proven by science and is incontrovertible. I am a Catholic, but I believe that abortion is not an issue of religion; it’s natural law and it is science. Period. Someone said earlier that there is a huge difference between a baby at 6 weeks and a baby who is fully born, but that’s not true.
From conception, my child had everything she needed to grow–all the DNA, and the “codes” that made her intrinsically her, and all I had to do was take care of myself and she would grow to be “recognized” as a human being. But I know that she was a person. I aborted her at only 10 weeks, and I saw my sonogram.After googling I realized she had arms, legs, hands, eyes, feet…she resembled a baby. So as far as what abortion is, it cannot be denied that it is the murder of an innocent. Do we have the legal right to kill someone walking down the street, because they are in our way? They are “inconvenient?” Then we shouldnt be able to abort a child. It is no different. Time and nutrition are the only thing that separates these two crimes. Unless the mother is guaranteed to die–which the Catholic church acknowledges as acceptable–abortion is wrong. Yet take St. Gianna, whom my sister is named after. She died in childbirth, told that if she was pregnant to term, she and her child would die. Her child, also Gianna is now an incredible advocate of pro-life.
As far as rape goes, we cannot deny that rape is a violent crime. Why would we treat a violent crime with another violent act? Mothers who give birth to their children who were conceived in rape fare far better than those who abort. The logic in aborting a rape victim’s baby is the same as saying that if you were stabbed in the leg, you should cut off that leg, because it will always remind you of the stabbing. Except we’re not talking about limbs or tissue, but a living being.
Every person has a right to live. I miss my Audrey every day of my life and not a day goes by that I don’t wish I could get her back. I have suffered serious psychological repercussions from being convinced by my friends and boyfriend to abort her. I was eighteen, had just started college, and conceived her while drunk with a guy I barely knew. I was told if I aborted her I’d never have to face my religious family and I’d be able to go on. Now I know that there are so many resources available for pregnant women, and that if I’d kept Audrey I’d be so much happier. I don’t feel like I’ve woken up from a very bad nightmare. I’m severely depressed and will probably never be able to have another child, from what doctors have told me. Any baby I see I feel jealousy for, like I wish I could just hold him/her. But nothing wil bring my baby back.
Andrea Bocelli, the famed Italian singer, was conceived in crisis. His mother was told to abort him. Look where he is now. Mozart’s siblings all died as children from disease. Can you imagine our culture without Mozart?!
Blacks and African-Americans are no longer the largest minority in the US largely because 25% of black people never leave the womb. It is the most dangerous place for a black child, because the abortion industry is so militant about providing an answer.
Abortion is not worth the trauma. I have met countless people like me who all concur. It is also murder. 100% undeniable murder. It shouldn’t just be something we personally choose not to do; we need to dedicate ourselves to fighting it, because in 40 years 55 million people and counting have been killed. That’s how many people were killed in World War II and those people were mourned endlessly; they still are, especially those who died from the Holocaust- about 12 million. We memorialize these people to this day. Why aren’t we doing the same for our unborn? By the time I am done typing this, about a hundred babies will be killed by abortion.
No matter how bad a child’s situation may be, God has a plan for that child. God took my recklessness and gave me a gift. I disregarded that gift and I’ve regretted it for 2 years, four months, and one day. Anna was brave, and suffered immensely, but ultimately did the right thing. Period. End of story. We should be in awe of her, not tearing her decision apart.
Can we think for a second about Sandy Hook? How distraught we were–and our President was–when all those children died? What did we say?-“They had so much promise, whole lives ahead of them.” Why does this disturb us but the fact that an incident like Sandy Hook happens every half-hour in abortion clinics nationwide? How are these children different?
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Sarah, also, you say that the woman is “more important.” You believe that because the fetus cannot think/feel/speak/etc the woman automatically becomes superior over the child.
So, if you met an emotionally or physically disabled person who relied on others for care, such as someone with severe CP who cannot articulate their needs, are you superior to them? Does that mean you can kill them if they are an inconvenience in your life?
Also, by the first trimester, the baby has a heartbeat, a closed fully-functioning circulatory system, and has reflexes. Their respiratory system is forming, it has fingers and toes on little arms and legs, and the cranial nerves are formed. other limb nerves are forming by 6 weeks. So yes, the baby can feel.
How is this baby inferior to the woman? Because she’s “older?” Are the victims of Sandy Hook less important than the lives of adults who die because they are less able to fend for themselves? If anything, those who cannot fend for themselves should be protected. Think how we behave towards animals in danger who are defenseless. Seriously. And they are just animals.
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“Not all embryos/fetus/pregnancies need to be born. I think we put too much value on human life, over emotionalize”
That’s revolting, utterly disgusting. Not everyone needs to be born? We put too much value on human life?! Seriously?
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I’m having a hard time understanding why the pro-choice community is so particularly disgusted with a 13 year old girl having a baby, so much more so than say a 16 year old girl. This is the perfect example of how our culture has created this so-called teenage age group that is defined by immaturity and inability to think for themselves or know who they are. My great grandmother got married and started having children at age 14. Yes that was very young to start a family. But is that repulsive? Did she sin when she had children within a marriage relationship? Times have changed and some of that change is good. Now 14 year old girls get to go to school and finish their education. They have the chance to have a real career if they so choose. But with that has come the assumption that that is all they are capable of. It is this generation that has produced adolescence. Everyone here who is so repulsed by the fact that she was allowed to remain pregnant (which MUST mean she was brainwashed!) doesn’t know very many 13 year olds. Why are we talking about them like their 8? Young and impressionable yes. But completely unable to think for herself? Absolutely not! It seems to me that the natural inclination for a woman when she’s pregnant is to be astounded that there is life growing inside of her! It boggles the mind that a human being is developing inside of her body! Why would you assume that she must have been brainwashed to find that valuable? If anything, it is those of you who find that life to be worth discarding that have been brainwashed. You want us to see what is obviously in front of us? That this isn’t a fairy tale? It’s not. Dust all the sugar off of it. I am not amused. Now perhaps you should do the same. See what’s right in front of your eyes. This dominantly pro-choice culture we live in has brainwashed its fair share of women who might have chosen to keep their child, had it not been for the pressure to throw it away because her life or her baby wasn’t perfect.
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Navi,
I no longer work in a clinic. And I NEVER said that we would give an abortion to a 13 year old whose parents brought her in and were forcing the issue upon her. No, I will not provide you with the information of the clinic I worked at. Why? so you can harrass them? Try and cause problems by making up bogus excuses to report them?
While I can not draw a fine line of when its ok to have an elective abortion and when its not, thats not for me to decide for anywoman, yes the woman is superior. her needs, goals, children who need her etc are more important than a 3 inch fetus. I put more value on the woman. Pregnancy is not easy for many women. They need to take time off to have a baby, and who knows if bed rest or complications would arise. If say a woman who already has a small child and needs to work to support that child becomes pregnant but can not finacially support another baby, who are any of you to say she must go through another pregnancy and potentially go into financial ruin? Sure, in aperfect world, she would recieve help from family, assistance from the state, and a ton of pro-lifers would rush to pay all her bills whiel she is on maternity leave and bed rest. Pregnancy is a commitment for 9 mos. While it is a shame that a woman may choose to have an abortion for finiacl reason, it is very realistic. sadley, soceiety has failed these women by not having social programs like Europe for example with paid childcare and 1-2 years of fully paid maternity leave. One of the biggest reasons I am prochoice is because society is not supportive of mothers, espeically singel mothers. Many of the same pro-life people who want every fetus to be born so not support programs like headstar, foodstamps, TANF, housing assistance like section 8, and paid matenrity leave. I dont understand the ‘conservative logic” Ever hear of the claim that republicans/consevatives are only prolife until the baby is born? Its VERY true. You are not prolife, you are pro-fetus. What about the life of the mother, her rights to her own body? I feel her rights trump that of her embryp/fetus. And no, not every fertilized egg needs to be born. A fertilized egg is a fertilized egg, NOT a baby.
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Sara, again, you are so wrong. You don’t really know your facts. I am EXTREMELY prolife. Likey many, many others who are prolife we DO supprt the fact that single moms with a new baby need help. I myself was pregnant at 18. I stayed in a home for unwed mothers for 5 months until I had my baby. There are places like that in all states and many cities have multiples places like this. In addition, my own city of Louisville, KY also has a place called Life House for new mothers to stay with their baby until they can find a job, place to stay,etc. until the mom can get back on her feet. You know who started this place??? A HUGE prolife woman who also runs a pregnancy resource center which of course is a prolife facility. There are other organizations out there as well. We have a place called the Golden Arrow which takes new/used baby furniture, clothing, formula, bottles, etc. Guess what? This place is prolife too! There ARE places out there for women and children. Open up your local yellow pages, use google. Most all cities have these resources available. You talk about Section 8 and all that. Ummmmm… who do you think live in Section 8 housing! Mostly single mothers!!! Oh and I forgot to mention that while staying in this home for unwed mothers, all school age girls were required to attend a school that was built ONLY for this pregnant girls so they could continue their education. Those who stayed there, such as myself, had to find a place to volunteer their work and was done in the attached hosptial, etc. No, they weren’t going to pay you but you learned job skills. It was something you could put on a resume. This home for unwed mothers was called St Marys in Dorchester, MA. Guess what, it wa a Catholic organization; you bet, prolife. Meals were provided, showers, a bedroom where you had just one roommate, washer/dryer, kitchen, two tv rooms and an art/craft room. They provided all the girls with counseling and all were medically taken care of. So again, you are WRONG!!!! If you want to continue to decieve yourself in believing that a fertilized egg is not a baby, then I fear for your soul. Even science has proven that life begins at conception. It is NEVER, EVER ok to kill a baby. Guess what. Don’t want to go into Section 8 housing, welfare and all that? Place the baby for adoption. I did. Yes, it was absolutely the hardest thing I have ever done. But almost 20 yrs later I was reunited with my daughter. She’s very happy that I gave her life. She’s got her bachelors degree in psychology and is going for her masters and is engaged to be married. While adoption was a tough option, I new that I gave my baby life. I never had to deal with the guilt that I killed my baby. Why don’t you take it upon yourself to attend a prolife banquet some time. You will be AMAZED at the things you learn. A fertilized egg IS a little, sweet, innocent, pure baby. I pray for you and for all the others in the world that think like you do. You are deceived. Your thinking may make you feel a little better about abortion, but if you believe and TRULY believe in God the Almighty, and live your life in HIS terms, and not YOURS, you will come to know that you are wrong. Pray about it. I pray that you are enlightened and see the truth . May God bless you and have mercy on you.
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@MarianJ, Amen!! Well said! Talk about being brainwashed, you are so correct! Most of the prochoice people are brainwashed and all of that started with the pure evils of Roe V. Wade!
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The reason we are concerned with 13 year olds and younger getting pregnant is age of consent laws. Statutory rape is a crime and has to be reported!! Cover up of child rape continues the abuse. PP does the abortion and sends a little girl right back to her rapist.
So YES it is a big deal when a little girl gets pregnant!! We do not add the violence of abortion to her life. We remove her from her perp! We prosecute the perp not give an innocent baby a death sentence.
We offer her help and support to carry that baby and like this story shows……God has been glorified in choosing LIFE!!
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Sarah you are not prochoice. You are proabortion.
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Many of the same pro-life people who want every fetus to be born so not support programs like headstar, foodstamps, TANF, housing assistance like section 8, and paid matenrity leave. I dont understand the ‘conservative logic” Ever hear of the claim that republicans/consevatives are only prolife until the baby is born? Its VERY true.
Um, no it isn’t. I am not Cathlic, but I do work with agencies such as Catholic Social Services. I don’t believe in allof their teachings, but they bend over backwards to help children and families and need. The bishops and other memberships of the hierarchy have come out strongly against cuts in social welfare.
Also, ever hear of the Crisis Pregnancy Centers? These are organizations that help women in crisis pregnancies before AND after their children are born,TSeveral Sources is just one of thousands across the country. The founder, Kathy DiFiore, also offers services for battered women and the homeless.
http://www.severalsourcesfd.org/
What amazes me is that proaborts are always talking about how we don’t want to help women, but when we do, you take us to court. But all the cases against the CPCs in New York, Baltimore, San Franciso, and Austin have been thrown out. I don’t know about Austin, but NY, SF, and Baltimore all have high abortion rates. I thought that keeping abortion was supposed to be ”safe, legal, and rare,” but you seem to think any effort to curtail them , even with free services that offer alternatives, is somehow ”harrassment” of women. Whatever
Read my lipstick: many prolifers are NOT Republicans. Many prolifers are NOT Conservatives. And many of us don’t even watch Fox News!
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Sarah,
The child in utero is a real, living child of his/her mother every bit as much as they are once they exit the womb. Killing is not a legitimate course of action to take when attempting to solve your problems. The size of a human being is not relevant to their status as a human being or their importance. Every human being deserves dignity and the protection of their life by law, regardless of size.
If you REALLY think human lives have too much value placed upon them, why should the law protect yours? If someone kills you tomorrow, should they be punished by law for it?
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I wish this testimony could be posted in every abortion clinic, I wish every woman could understand the depths of God’s love and purpose for our lives, thank you for this story, it’s an encouragement to me
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As a Democrat who’s pro-life, I feel upset that so-called pro-life politicians won’t support programs to help women and children, preferring to cut them instead. And there are pro-choice politicians who claim they help women and children. But how can they do so if they won’t support the most important one-the right to life?
If the Republicans say they’re pro-life, they have to start funding programs so that children will be able to blossom into the hope for our country’s future. And if the Democrats say they’re for working families, they have to start protecting the right to lfie.
I believe that this girl’s testimony is proof that God’s gift of life is for everyone. She’s a brave young woman and I’m glad that you posted it. God bless the mother and child.
Happy Saint Valentine’s Day to you all!
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There are many pregnancy centers and organizations, and many of the people, such as yourselves do put your money where your mouth is by volunteering and helping these organizations. BUT the people you probably vote for (I am assuming republicans, who are supposedly prolife, are the same ones who want to take away funding for programs to help the poor and single moms. They do not support universal healthcare, headstart, TANF, etc. They put their politics and restrictions on the programs that families need. Society in general is not supportive of single moms, or even families in general. There are not enough pregnancy homes or resourses due to lack of funding, especially in rural areas. In the city women have more access. I live in a rural area, there are no homes for pregnant women. Section 8 has a 8 year waiting list.
You may recall, around the elections there were several make politicians who claimed to be prolife but made some nasty remarks and voted against their prolife principles. I can not recall there names off the top of my head unless I google it. But I do recall one refering to legitamate rape and that if a woman is truely raped the body has ways to shut down and prevent a pregnancy. That is total BS and not prolife at all. It is anti-woman and anti-child. These politicians are the most guilty because they take away funding for programs that help women, families and children while restricting abortion, and even access to birth control and health care. Its easy for the prolife side to tell people to not have sex and wait until marriage but not everyone has the same beliefs or values. Another thing that baffles me is that many (not all) prolifers want to restrict access to birth control and dont believe in condoms or birthcontrol. I would think that a pregnacy center would be handing out birth control and condoms left and right, to help prevent pregnancy and abortions. Access to free or cheap birth control and health care is proven to reduce abortion rates so why not doeverything in your power to reduce these unwanted pregnancies rather than go even furthur and push your personal beliefs on people. Abstince education does NOT work. yes, practicing abstinence works, obviously. but not everyone wants to and thats there right. Even many married couples are not ready to have kids, are you saying they should practice abstince in their marriage for 5 years or however long, until they want to have kids? I myself do not like birth control, as I am very in tune with my body. I keep track of my cycles, check my cervix, and just avoid sex or use condoms if I am around my fertile days. I am also 29, have 2 children and feel comfortable with my body. I also want to teach my daughter how to do the same. I wish everybody would do the same, but not every woamn feels comfortable checking her mucus and cervix, or is responsible enough to keep up with it. Thats not my business what they do with there body, just like its not my business if they have an abortion.
I actually did go to a pregnancy center for help when I was 19 and pregnant with my daughter. I actually had an appointment for an abortion but really didnt want to do it. I was so thankful for the staff at the abortion clinic for the support they gave me. They actually helped me come to the decison to have my daughter. The ARNP and staff who worked there refered me to places to get assistance, helped me with forms, and were just there for me. They didnt pressure me into an abortion or dump me because I was not a profit to them. They are truely prochoice and support any decision a woman makes. I eneded up going to a cCare NET. I didnt know they were a prolife organization at first. They women were kind to me but they tried pressing their religous beliefs on me. The parenting classes were full of women who had lost their children or involved with DCYF and required to take parenting classes. I was the only mom there by choice. They gave me some clothes for my daughter and a swing.I felt very manipulated when I was told they were having a fundraiser, they wanted me to “tell my story” at a banquet. I remeber the exact words she said ” People like babies and that will raise us a lot of money” My daughter was 4 months at the time. I had only been going there for a month. The woman basically wrote a script for me, which contained somethings that were intrue. They wanted me to say that going to carenet saved my baby from abortion. (no it didnt, bc I didnt even start going to them until after my baby was born) They basically wanted me to say that without them I wouldnt be able to care for my child. I corrected her and reminded her that I didnt start going there until my daughter was 3 mos old, but she said it they didnt need to know that. I did go to the banquet and told my story and showed my daughter off to a crowd full of clergy, pastors, priests,and wealthy people who wanted to donate, I thought I was doing the right thing helping them raise money because I know they did help and other women. I am sorry but there is a lot more to helping and supporting womena nd there children then giving them slothes, cribs, swings, furniture, etc. I late found out they paid $8000 to have a woman who did a religous talk show to come make a speach. I can think of a million of things that $8000 could be better spent on. The dinner was a prime rib and at a very fancy venue. I did get a standing ovation and a lot of tears for telling people my sob story that I was in an abusive relationship, my mom had died and ihad no family to help me, and that I had an appointment for an abortion but didnt follow through with it, choose to keep my baby and blah blah blah. I was 20 years old, vulnerable and just wanted to help. When they ran a slide show, showing names and pictures of all the babies they had “saved from abortion”, my daughters name came up, I was discusted bc they did not “save my baby” Pregnancy centers are manipulative and present false information. They lie and do whatever it takes to lure women in. If you dont share their beliefs or reject their opinions they pretty much reject you and tell you you are going to hell. They offer ultrasounds by unlicenced people. Anyone can point out a head and arms on an ultrasound machine. Anyone can read a urine pregnancy test. They are frivoulous with their funds, that I think could be better spent helping women. I also went to a NARAL roe-vs Wade banquet. It was held at a modest Unitarian Universalist Church. The speaker was a well kown author who literally charged the cost of her plane tickets to come speak. it was a pot luck dinner. The governor came and made a brief speech. They didnt blow thousands of dollars having a facny dinner with expensive speakers. Maybe that pregnacy center could have taken all the money they spent at the banquet and handed out birth control, paid rent for women in need, bought food, paid for daycare etc.
To answer the question about diabled people being less human or deserving of life, me being superior to them, etc. If they are suffering, in pain, or on life support, then I think they deserve to die with dignity and love. When our beloved pets are suffreing we put them down because its wrong to make any living creature suffer. We do it because we love and value our pets. Why arent humans the same way? Why force a person to suffer and live in pain or have a life that has no meaning (life Terry Shaevo) I would not want to be kept alive by medical interventions if I were in a vegatative state, tube fed, brain damaged,etc. Even if Iwas mentally aware but my body was in a vegative state I would still not want to be kept alive. If I was pregnant with a child who had sever birth defects, and would die shortly after birth or lead a life of pain and suffering I really cant say with certainty what I would do, because I havent been there but I would probably have an abortion as difficult as it would be. Women who have these late term abortions thought long and hard about it and did not come to that choice easily. Im sure they ask questions and look at every possible angle to see if their baby can be helped or saved. I would never wish that on any woman. Add the harassment those poor women recieve from the prolife side, you reall think these women really wanted to come to that choice? It has nothing to do with “there baby being less than perfect” Its about doing what is humane and preventing suffering ans pain, and doing the right thing. Personally, I probably would not want to bring a child with a disability in to this world. Many people would choose to have a baby with down syndrome as they can lead productive meaningful lives. That is there choice, and good for them. I think its irresponsible because why bring a person into the world knowing they will have a disabilty? It doesnt make sense to me, but to each their own and its not my place to tell someone what they should or shouldnt do with their pregnancy or body. Many people will disagreee with me, but I try to remove the emotional aspect from the situation and look at it at face value, it is what it is. Bringing a disabled child into this world means that the tax payers have to foot the bill for all the services that child will need. My son just has a speech delay and the school district has to pay for him to have speech therapy. It will be corrected and he will most likely be fine and progress. I am talking about kids who will never prgress, most likely regress and recieve therapy and services that really wont make much of a differnce but will cost a ridiculous amount of time, money and resources. What is the point? It takes away from kids who have potential and will actually go somewhere in life and be productive. Theres a kid in my daughters class in a wheel chair who screams, drools and is a major distraction for the other kids. Yes it teaches the other kids tolerance and that there are differenlty ables kids,, and it teaches compassion. But its obnoxious for other kids to have to deal with screaming and the distraction. They pay a woman to be a one on one aid for this chidl, Im assuming 30-40k a year. While the rest of the class gets one teacher. I think its more important to help the kids without a major disabilty or have a minor disabilty, like speech delay, dislexia, ADD. Give them MORE attention and resources bc they have more of a chance. Because of these kids who will be vegetables and never amount to anything, my son was denied access to a summer program that would have greatly helped him. Kids who are still going to scream and drool will recieve services but my son and other kids who just need some extra help get put aside. In nature, animals who have sickly offspring leave them to die bc it would weaken there species and take away from theire healthy young. We intervene too much and now we have a society full of health problems, genetic diseases,.
Call me cruel but it is what it is and we need to stop being so emotionally wrapped up and let nature take its course, and put effort and funding where it would be the most benefit
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What if we began to start looking to each other for help?
What if we stopped “funding programs” and getting more folks into government assistance when Pregnancy Centers answer so many needs FOR FREE?
Those that claim to be followers of Christ need to STEP IT UP and start maternity homes in their towns, volunteer at their local pregnancy centers, and GIVE of their time and money and energy!
It isn’t up to the government. It is up to us.
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To all of you who question why Catholics or prolife people don’t believe in birth control, there are several reasons. One, and the main reason is, if you believe in God and you are a Christian, first, God gave us the Ten Commandments, telling us not to fornicate. That, all by itself says no sex before marriage, plain and simpe. Don’t like it? Too bad. It’s not my rule, or a Catholic, it GOD’s rule. Now, assuming you are married, number one, you can not have an abortion because another one of the Ten Commandments is Thou Shalt Not Kill (this obviously applies whether you are married or not). So, this means no abortions. Again God’s rule. Now, birth control. I totally understand that most females don’t want to be pregnant their entire married lives. I GET IT! Again, if you are truly living your life for God then understand this. When you create a baby, you also create a soul. God wants as many souls created as possible (in marriage) so that one day he can have them all in Heaven. So when you go on birth control you are disabling souls to be created. God doesn’t like that. Now, this is where it gets unbelieveable and I say that in the true sense of the word. #1, Birth Control (BC) cost money. That’s money in the hands of the pharmecutical compines, doctors, etc. Lets not forget that Margaret Sanger played a huge part in that. #2 (and this is the unbelieveable part, but unfortunately true), many birth controls have been designed to FAIL. YES YOU READ RIGHT. FAIL! Here’s the scoop. Girl gets pregnant, she gets an abortion. After, abortion clicinc provides birth control or doctors afilliated with such clinics provide birth control. Why? Because they know that if a female has had one abortion and she gets pregnant again, she’s very likey to come back for another abortion. And another. And another. Sound crazy? IT IS!!! BUT….IT….IS…TRUE!!!! Why oh why would they do this? It’s called GREED. Actually first, it’s called EVIL. Evil in this case leads to GREED which leads to MURDER. Abortions are expensive. They range from $350 – $900 depending on the kind of abortion provided and which trimester the mother is in. So, do the math. In a place like Planned Parenthood and actually most abortion clinics, they will perform multiple abortions at the same time. Why? $$$. If they can perform ie, 4 abortions in one hour at the minimum rate of $350 each, that’s $1400/hr! * 8 = $11,200/day! Not a bad day’s wages. That’s approx $3 MILLION a year!!!!!!!!! That’s on the low end!!!! Think I’m wrong? I’M NOT!! Don’t belive me, read this: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/davis.php. This is what it’s all about. That and like other people have stated, genocide. It’s all evil and it’s all wrong and it’s NOT PROGOD. Educate yourselves people. Sometimes the truth hurts.
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I find it amazing and ridiculous at the same time how people who are normally rational about everything else in life believe there is some ‘guy’ in heaven and allaround us, who has these ten rules, watches us all the time, will send you to hell for not following those rules, but loves you. Its ludicris to believe in religon. Relgion controlls people into behaving a certain way so the governemnt or ruling powers can have sontrol and a means to keep people scared and in check, and fearful that if they dont follow these guilines they will go to hell. Living a life dedicated to god, worrying and stressing that you arent going to please god is one of the saddest is mind boggling to me. People will follow and believe anything you tell them. Spirituality is one thing, but religion and everything its about is insane. Relgion has been responsible for so many deaths and wars but is supposed to be about peace. Everyone interprets their religon in there own way, and if you dont agree with someones particular religion, you are beneath them and going to hell. As far as birth control and everything Theresa explained about religion, if someone wants to practive that for themself thats fine but to push that belife on someone else is wrong. To think all people should follow thos e guidlines is wrong. My own religion or lack there of is not superior or below any one elses. Its personal beliefs and shouldnt be brought into any laws, rules, or even debates and conversations because its irrelevant and invalid. All it is, is a personal belief system. Religion was created to control the people, its based on ancient pagan belief and off astology, astronomy. Relgious stories and myths that were long before christ actually followed the same basic story (3 wise men, son born of a virgin birth, died on across, resurected 3 days later etc. The story of christ and other myths are just the seasons, constellations, sun,moon, solstice and equinoxes personified.
Yes the pharmacutical companies are out to make money BUT they do not create birth control to fail. Did you know that an abortion cominc/dr makes maybe $30-40 profit for each abortion? Many clinics dont make anything because they will not turn a woman away for inability to pay. Thats how it was at the clinic I worked. I made $12 an hour. hardley enough to live high off the hog. And most womenwho came in where there for their first, sometimes their second and very rarely their thirs abortion. We gave out free birth control and had bowls of condoms all over the place, and educational pamplets about safe safe and preveneting pregnancy. We told people we did not want them back as repeat customers and gave them education. With abortion, its not about making money but empowering women to have control over their life and when they have children. not woman should be forced into motherhood, babies are not a problem solver and dont make everything right in the world. babies are an 18 -plus year commitment and they require a mother to put everything aside. Its ok for a woman to think of herself first, her goals, hopes, dreams, CHILDREN SHE MAY ALREADY HAVE WHO WOULD SUFFER AND GO WITHOUT IF THERE MOM HAD ANOTHER CHILD and have an abortion. Yes, its a developing human but it only becomes superiror if the woman wants to make it so. Forced pregnancy is a form of rape. Yes, it extinguishes human life but what about the life of the woman? She deserves to have a voice and a choice. I just cant wrap my head around why every fetus needs to be born, why its such a critical matter to prevent abortio
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Theresa, your religous propeganda, biased articles and inaccurate information is not the truth. The catholic church is one of the biggest finacial institutions in the world. They are also one of the most corrupt. Tell me again why the pope just stepped down? THe rules are Medival and ancient. They are not up with currant modern day times. They just want to control the people for their own sick twisted reasons. They cover up sex abuse by priests, and make god only knows how many victims be silenced. Its ok and god will forgive pedophile priests but if a gay couple wants to love each other and marry, thats a sin and they wiill go to hell, for simply loving another person. THAT IS SICK. The church forbids condoms in african countrys where is a regular thing for ment to cheat on their wives, and get aids. Its ok for African people to have a ton of babies that will starve to death, have yound mothers give birth in a mud hut and often die in childbirth, because “god wants more humans” but its not ok for these same women to use condems and birth control? Its ok for a person with AIDS to have unprotected sex with his wife bc a condom stops the egg from being fertilized but not ok for them to use condoms to save their life? Give me a break, That is such backwards thinking. The most screwed up religion and belief system on this planet. ANd I dont even take birth control, I use the NFP method. But not all people are capable of doing that so they should have a choice in the matter. Thank goodness the catholic church doesnt run the world. Can you imagine if this country was run by catholic principles and laws? What kind of place do you think this ouwl be?
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Wow. Theresa…after reading this whole article and ALL its posts…you just summed everything up so SUCCINCTLY, ACCURATELY, and HUMOROUSLY!
I just marveled at this last post of yours (your others were both inspiring and thought-provoking, too) …and I can NOW rest at last!!
I think, however, that Sarah’s brainwashing, and her sad, sad perceptions, will be running through my mind for some time to come. – They were literally chilling, and many of them were absolutely astounding….It was like every possible cliche I’ve ever heard was in FULL force, and I’d hardly know where to begin to debate her, point by point, although that would certainly be very easy to do.
Anyhow, many thanks for your insight, wisdom, and grace under adversity…you’re an inspiration! Happy (now post-) Valentne’s Day!
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Sarah… I’m not sure I am qualified to answer all your questions / rebut your arguments. I do, however, think your opinions are wonderfully valid. I disagree with your conclusions but I love that you are trying so hard to do the right thing. I would ask that other pro-lifers who spew hateful and vindictive judgment on you please consider their own conscience. Christ equated verbal abuse with murder, and though he didn’t address the issue of online comment threads, I am sure they count too.
There is one point I want to make – one rebuttal to something you said along the way – your assumption that Anna was coerced and persuaded by pro-life confidants into keeping her baby. I don’t think she was.
If you read the article, you see that she wanted to keep the baby in her own terms: “I was told by therapists, friends, teachers, family, and even strangers, that it would probably be best if I had an abortion; but I couldn’t. Earlier that year, I had learned in my science class that a child’s DNA comes from both parents, and that meant that this child was also half mine. I also figured that since I was the one who would carry her in MY body for the next several months, that made her mine, not his. I knew from my first pregnancy that he didn’t want me to have the baby. I knew that if I had an abortion, I would be doing just what he wanted, and he would win again. He would not have only killed all of my innocence, he would have killed my daughter.
She freely acknowledges that, “it might have been easier to choose an abortion. There are many things that I would not have had to go through if I had. It was harder than I have words to describe. But there are some things in life that are worth fighting for, and she was one of them.”
I agree with you that a 13 year old girl isn’t capable of making adult decisions. I was never a victim of sexual abuse but a friend of mine was and I was involved in the case as a “hearsay” witness. The pedophile, who was our ballet teacher, got 21 years. (BTW – for anyone who thinks that parents of these girls are either stupid or in denial, I can assure you that these predators are extremely clever. His façade was flawless; he was carrying on for 2 years and no one – not even I – suspected it until she confessed. Meanwhile, our parents were paying him money so that their daughters could be exposed and exploited by his power over us.) I know what he did to my friend, how he broke her, how he lied and seduced and told her that she wanted this until she believed him.
However, the decision to keep the child was Anna’s to make, for better or for worse. That’s the whole point of having free will – to learn from our mistakes. It is sad when the lessons are so hard, but all the more wonderful when we can learn from – and overcome them.
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I think, more specifically, that forcing abortions on anyone is incredibly violative. I understand your perspective – your tragic backstory – but think about what you are saying. For a mother – even a thirteen year old mother – who loves her child and wants to try to give it life – can you imagine anything more horrifying or traumatic than to have your own offspring torn from you by the people who you trusted, the people who claim to love you? To deny that abortion trauma exists is to silence the voices of so many sad and broken women. Real feminism – real feminists – would not do that.
There is a book – recommended by both pro-choicers and pro-lifers alike – “Real Choices” by Frederica Mathewes-Green. She researches and interviews women who have undergone abortions and tries to understand why they did what they did, how we can help them, etc. She finds abortion trauma to be all-too-real. While she is openly pro-life, pro-choicers also respect and quote her: “No one wants an abortion as she wants an ice-cream cone or a Porsche. She wants an abortion as an animal, caught in a trap, wants to gnaw off its own leg.”
If there is a way to resolve the abortion debate, it’s only going to come through honest and respectful dialogue with one another. And if there is an answer, it will always be based on Love. Hatred of anything is a dangerous ally – you might think you hate what is only destructive – teenaged pregnancy – but in the process, you are denying and destroying something far greater – maternal love. I’m sorry you got deprived in that realm, but does your pain really give you the right to deprive others of their chance to try?
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The thing about abortion trauma is that these women often suffer in silence. Too many pro-lifers and pro-choicers refuse to ally themselves with a woman who has had an abortion, but regrets it.
I firmly believe that the truth – whatever it is – will eventually triumph.
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As much as I hate abortion, a lot of girls’females are forced into it and it’s very sad. Whatever the case, prolifers, many of them, and again, the Catholic church offers help and /or resources for females and males that are grieving after an abortion. There is help out there.
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Sara, again, as in all your posts you are so misinformed. You’re ridiculous. Get a clue.
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Thank you Marie Hess!
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Theresa, please correct me if I am wrong about the statments I made about the catholic church. Please tell me the ‘truth’. Do you disagree that the catholic church is one of the biggest financial institutions in the world? The pedophile priests being covered up, offered protection and not being held accountable? What about the pope? Did you know he had a Nazi background?
What do you think about my statements about the catholic church forbiding condoms, even for people in Africa, where its normal for women to be raped and their husbands to cheat on them and give them AIDS? Do you think its wrong to use condoms because it stops sperm from meeting an egg? I am curious what you think about these things. I think its wrong to bring life in this world, when that life will starve and die from starvation or disease, or cause the mother to die in childbirth. I think its wrong that women in Africa die in child birth regularly, have complications that could have been avoided had they waited until they were old enough. Its normal for women to have babies as young as 13, 14,15 but may of these womens bodies are not fully developed, they lack medical intervetntion and resources. Read “THe hospital By The River” Its about a husnand and wife doctor who run a Fistulla hospital in Africa. Its heart breaking and inspiring. They talk about women who would have such hard labors that their babies regularly died, some women had lost 3,4,5, babies. These people need access to condoms, birth control and education especially given their lack of food, medical care and resources.
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Theresa, did you read my comment about working in an abortion clinic and how much money we made, or lack there of? You never responded to that. I am really curious about what you think about what I said aboout condoms. I have a hard time believing god would want little babies to be born just to die in child birth and for the mother to die as well, and leave behind 8 kids without a mom. Not that birth control and condoms solve all these problmes, or totally prevent abortion but they certainly help tremondously and empower women to have control over their life
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sarah said “Not that birth control and condoms solve all these problmes, or totally prevent abortion but they certainly help tremondously and empower women to have control over their life”.
Sarah, I disagree. Birth control and condoms has NOT and will NOT empower women (and men, since you need both) to have control over their life.
Actually, they tend to diminish such control and instill a sense of irresponsibility in the couple. They tend to increase tendency towards promiscuity and casual sex (which is not very empowering for women, I believe) and when they fail…(and they are bound to fail, sometimes) a sense of despair, that drives people to abortions. So, think again it when you say “birth control and condoms” empower women!
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One more thing, If a fertilized egg/embryo/fetus is a person and deserves all the rights as such, why can’t the parents claim them on their taxes?
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I would not challenge the premise of this article, that abortion in some cases is used to cover up child rape, but can you provide some proof that this story is real and not something made up to support your cause?
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Yeah, I read your posts. I just don’t know if it’s worth my time to reply. As strong as you feel about your beliefs, I gurantee you that I feel just as strong if not stronger about mine.
It sounds to me that you base your facts on heresay and don’t really look into the actual facts about a lot of things. It’s like talking to a wall. I could give you facts all day and you won’t take them. Seems like you want to argue just for the sake of arguing.
Have you ever attended a Catholic Mass? Have you ever looked into the charities they support? Have you ever tried to really learn what it is truly all about? Seems like you only know the very basics of religion and what you hear on the news and you take that for truth. It’s like reading a gossip magazine and believing everything in it. You criticize me and my religion about trying to throw it on to other people but yet you are doing this same thing with your own beliefs. That is hypocrtical.
Before I forgot, let me say this. You tried to insult the Catholic church and Christianity by saying that they are not up to date with the times. Let me tell you something. As far as God’s laws, he doeesn’t care about what’s up to date, what’s modern, the latest fad, hairstyle or the fact that todays society says it ok to not only have premarrital sex but have multiple sex partners. That’s it’s okay to engage in homosexual activity. That’s it’s ok to dress immoral and provocative, to party all the time and get drunk which leads to a lot of above problems. To legalize marijuana. To kill babies. It doesn’t matter what modern times say or do. The FACT is that GOD gave us his laws. They are to be applied through ALL TIMES. Gods laws don’t change. It’s man, the sinner, who changes. Man, who isn’t happy with Gods laws (just like Lucifer) and decides that he is going to tweak the laws and change the laws because it makes his life easier for him. Because sometimes, Gods laws can be difficult to follow. If a person really believes in God, then the laws will be followed. That doesn’t neccessarily mean that if a law is broken that person will go to hell. There is the Sacrament of Reconciliation and forgivness and repentance. I can aslo tell you this. If I live my life according to Gods will and I die and it turns out that there is no God, then I have lost nothing! However, Sarah, if you live your life according to your own wants and needs and not of Gods and you die and there IS God, then you are in a huge heap of trouble. I’m surely not taking any chances. For one, this life we live now on earth is really quite short. Life afterwards in Heaven or hell is for all eternity. No thanks. I’ll choose my God. Second, I have most definitely seen the power (even miracle) of God in my life. Things that are only explained by the presence of God. Not you or anyone else will ever convince me otherwise.
As far as abuse in the Catholic church and homosexuality, etc. Yes, it has existed and yes it horrible and embarrasing. You think it only happens in the Catholic church? It happens everywhere. EVERYWHERE. It’s just that people like you will take everything little bit they can to attack the Catholic church. I say, those things mentioned above that happended in the Catholic church IS evil. The Bible says that evil will penetrate the Church. Man against man, priest against priest. However, this is not what the Catholic church IS. Can you not wrap your mind around that? It’s lke saying that a household has something evil in it and therefore that entire houshold and everyone in it is evil. No. Remove what is evil and the household is once again sound. Its the same thing. As far as the current Pope being a Nazi? UNTRUE! I just had this same conversation yesterday with a cousin in law. He heard it, saw pictures and thinks that it’s true. It isn’t. Again, another ploy to attack the Catholic church. The Pope himself is not being forced to step down. He is choosing to step down because his health (I beleive at 85 years of age) as decreased much in the last few months. I applaud him for having enough sense to do so because he feels he can no longer hold his position and be effective for the Church.
As far as Africa? Sorry. Again, evil. Anyone who will go and sleep around, contract a disease and give it to his wife is, evil. That’s all that it is. Sorry, birth control is not acceptable. I can understand your concern over it. Yes. But I cannot in my heart go against God’s law. It’s not a perfect world. God give all of us free will. We all have our crosses to bear. Who says that when these African women die their reward for being so horribly violated won’t be Heaven? I don’t have all the answers. If these men also followed God’s laws, then none of these things would have happened. I may have this wrong but wasn’t AIDS acquired by man by hainv sex with an ape? Hello?!! That’s punishment. If they hadn’t gone outside of God’s laws, it never would have happened. Sorry.
Yes. It’s wrong to wear a condom. It’s like a doctor telling a woman to abort because if she doesn’t her and her baby will die, but the woman ignores the doctor and gives birth and both the mother and child are fine. That’s putting your Devine Mercy/Trust in God.
I certainly don’t have all the answers. But God has a reason for everything whether we like it or not. Lets not forget, as tragic and sad as it is to know that some babies die in child birth, it is comforting to me to know that those babies are in Heaven.
I don’t have time to comment further. I have to go to work.
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Richard, what about married coiuples who are commited to their marriage? What about the women in 3rd world countries? I think tracking my cycles is more empowering, I do it myself but not all women/young girls are responsible enough, or feel comfortable with checking their mucous and cervix everyday. you have to be really in tune with your body and comfortable to do that. Its sad that mothers dont teach their daughters to track their cycles adn KNOW theri body and signals. I taught myself and have been doing it for years. I personally dont like birth control and will be teaching my daughter how to track her cycles. Its such a shame that society is so out of touch with thier bodies and feminity. Thats my choice though and I have no right or business to tell another woman that she is wrong.
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Theresa, You mentioned marijuana. Didnt God create marijuana like all other plants? There are so many benefits to cancer and aids patienst. it helps with nausua so they can eat food, helps with anxiety and depression and there have been some claims that it actually helps kill cancer cells. People made it illegal. George washingotn grew hemp (totally different that marijuana, same family, just catn get high from it) Just like St Johns Wort helps with depression and Aloe with burns, Marijuana has a purpose other than being a way for teenagers to get high. I dont smoke myself buy woould rather see people smoke pot than get drunk/drink (which serves no purpose and no health benefits) and get a DWI, beat thei wife and kids, etc.
as far as homosexuality, Love is Love is Love and the world needs more of it no matter what form its in. People have been homosexual since the dawn of time. We are also not the only species that exibits homosexual behavior. Dolphins are one species that does.
I dont make up my information. While I would never clain to know everything, I feel well educated about abortion. I worked in a clinic with doctors, volunteered for NARAL, have had an abortion, have 2 children (so I know about fetal developmetn, the demands of pregnancy and parenthood etc) and read a lot. I also went to a pregnancy center and know first hand their manipulating ways.
I try and make my opinoins from multiple sources of information, not just one very biased religous belief system that condems all other beliefs. I was raised Catholic and have been to church. Not for me. I will not belong to a religon that condems gay people and their right to marry, condems condoms and birthcontrol (which helps prevent the need for abortion)
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Sarah, first of all, you don’t have to “teach yourself” Natural Family Planning just as a doctor doesn’t teach him/her self to do heart surgeries.
There are teachers, classes, books and resources out there. You can have your daughter attend these classes.
As regards, to your last statement “Thats my choice though and I have no right or business to tell another woman that she is wrong.”,
I wholeheartedly disagree with that very common (in the pro-abortion mindset) approach.
You can and I think you should always uphold and affirm what is right and behave accordingly. However, if people choose to do otherwise and behave contrary, they are free and it’s their choice. That’s why we have consequences.
But, IT IS my business as a person to affirm and behave according to what is right!
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Sarah,
I’m a Pro-Life atheist getting back into college this fall. My mother worked for an OB/GYN who started doing abortions TO MAKE MONEY after a costly divorce. My mom was his bookkeeper, so she saw the numbers. She quit shortly after he started doing abortions because she couldn’t in good conscience be a party to the killing.
I don’t have any problem with condoms or even hormonal birth control. However, I have a HUGE problem with the idea that children aren’t valuable or worthy of protection unless their moms decide they are. That’s SICK.
As I said before (you never answered): If you REALLY think human lives have too much value placed upon them, why should the law protect yours? If someone kills you tomorrow, should they be punished by law for it?
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” As far as Africa? Sorry. Again, evil. Anyone who will go and sleep around, contract a disease and give it to his wife is, evil. That’s all that it is. Sorry, birth control is not acceptable. I can understand your concern over it. Yes. But I cannot in my heart go against God’s law. It’s not a perfect world. God give all of us free will. We all have our crosses to bear. Who says that when these African women die their reward for being so horribly violated won’t be Heaven? I don’t have all the answers. If these men also followed God’s laws, then none of these things would have happened. I may have this wrong but wasn’t AIDS acquired by man by hainv sex with an ape? Hello?!! That’s punishment. If they hadn’t gone outside of God’s laws, it never would have happened. Sorry.”
1. AIDS wasn’t acquired by someone having sex with monkeys. It was probably acquired by eating monkey meat and hunting monkeys, like most zoonotic diseases. Humans got infected with SIV from eating and hunting monkeys, and it mutated into HIV with a few jumps.
2. The Pope said condom use could be morally justified in serious situations such as what is going on in Subsaharan Africa, as long as the intent is to prevent death, not avoid life. I’m not Catholic so I don’t really care, but I don’t think even the most strict religious officials want to watch some seventeen-year-old mother die of AIDS along with her children because hubby went on a raping spree and brought back a virus.
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“The most screwed up religion and belief system on this planet.”
Okay, people who say this about Christianity I suspect are just really uneducated or deliberately, willfully ignorant. I don’t agree with a lot of aspects of Christianity, but it’s objectively far from the worst belief and religion system. In it’s current form it doesn’t cause near the damage of at least one mainstream religion I can think of.
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Xalise, Sorry I didnt reply. It wasnt deliberate, Just hard to respond to every comment. To answer your question “As I said before (you never answered): If you REALLY think human lives have too much value placed upon them, why should the law protect yours? If someone kills you tomorrow, should they be punished by law for it?
The laws should protect life that is already here beacue its HERE. a fertilized egg or embryo is just that. Its not fully formed, its still developing. If a woman is pregnant and is murdered then I believe the murderer can be charged with 2 counts of murder, corrrect me if I am wrong. I think thats the right thing to do. Its the womans body and her choice. I think the woman’s rights are far more important and superior than a clump of cells or a 3 inch fetus. I just dont think it should have the same rights and protections as a fully formed human. It would create so many problems, just look at ectopic pregnancy for example. If the embryo had the same rights or more rights than the woman, the woman would get an automatic death sentence. Sometimes a woman needs to be superior to the z/e/f, and no one has the right to determine when its acceptable or warranted and when its not. If we do not allow women to have abortions, then the fetus automatically has more rights than the woman. That is very scary to think about, that a woman may not have full authority over her own body, and that a fertilized egg, 2 cells that just happen to meet are more important than she is. The two are apples and oranges. They are not the same. A person alrady here is not the same as the products of conception. It can never be. THey can never be equal because to grant equal rights to the fetus, takes away rights of the mother. It just isnt logically possible
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Jack, Sorry I stand corrected. Religon, ALL relgion is screwed up. Relgion is just a way to control the people, instill fear that people must behave a certain way or they will burn in hell for eternity. Everyone has a different interpretation of the bible or there own religion. Everyone feels there religon is superior to all others. Watch Religulous, a great documentary
Question for everyone: I feel I give logical, un-emotional, non manipulative answers for why a woman should have the right to an abortion and why she is more important than a fetus. (I know most of you disagree, thats ok) I am curious if anyone can give me a logical,accurate reason why abortion isnt ok. It cant be based on emotion or religion (lke saying God created that baby or that its murder, Murder, God, Baby, Child, stages of development etc are all labels that people created to instill an emotionally charged connection, and to cause feelings. I want The prolife side is all manipulation and playing with peoples emotions and feelings, everything about it plays on peoples emotions. Its not at face value. They world will not stop if a woman has an abortion. Its easier to get upset over terms like “murdering a baby”, “partial birth abortion( which btw isnt even a real medical term, its a term created by prolifers to stir emotions and piss people off) or being the mother of a dead baby, rather than removing a clump of cells with human DNA, or terminating a pregnancy, or aborting a developing human cell the size of a period at the end of the sentence, or aborting a 3 inch fetus. Its all about the words you guys use. a fertilized egg is not a baby, is not an embryo is not a fetus is not a child is not an adult is not an elderly person. So, please,with out using emtionally charged or religous phrases or terms, give me a logical reason why every fertilized egg needs to be born. Please and thank you
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Richard, If a woman doesnt have to teach herself natural family planning then why are there classes and books? I taught myself by getting a book, I attempted to take a class but lo and the behold, the judgemental catholic church wouldnt allow me because I am not married. So, withholding information that can improve my health and make me know and comfortable with my body is acceptable because I am not living my life they way they thik I shoiuld, Even if I was single they would refuse to teach me. So apparently single women shouldn tbe able to have access to a class that can teach her about her body and heatlh bc she may use that info to have extrmarital sex, and it may even encourage sex outside of marriage (rolling my eyes)
Also, pro abortion means that a person only supports abortion as an option and doesnt support adoption or pregnancy. No one is pro abortion.
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No one is pro abortion.
If you support legal abortion, you are proabortion.
I am curious if anyone can give me a logical,accurate reason why abortion isnt ok.
Here you go, sarah:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0045.html
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You don’t like the terms we use because they are real. We don’t like the terms you use because they inaccurate. You choose your words so you can have a warm fuzzy feeling to make yourself feel better. Hmmmm… seems like that’s what you were criticizing us for. Have you seen that no one “likes” your comments. except you?
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…and yes Sarah, I was referring to you.
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Sarah, first of all there are NFP books to help the teacher and the student learn better and review the subject. Having books on lung surgery doesn’t mean that anyone can perform a surgery after just reading a book!
You also said “I attempted to take a class but lo and the behold, the judgemental catholic church wouldnt allow me because I am not married”
Sarah there’s something that doesn’t ring true in your statement. Actually the Catholic church encourages to get NFP classes before getting married. My wife and I took it when we were dating. So, is there something else you are withholding from your story?
If you want, you can still learn the NFP from books, but it’s not as accurate as you would have an expert teach and mentor you. Just as a doctor wouldn’t be as good if s/he learned to perform surgeries from a course online :)
Also, I disagree with your statement that “no one is pro abortion”. Unfortunately, there are people who are morbidly pro-abortion. Take for example Cecile Richards or Obama. They are indeed pro-abortion since they consider pregnancy as a punishment.
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Very true Richard. Also, there are huge amounts of resources at pregnancy resources centers/crisis centers, (which again are PROLIFE) about NFP and they encourage it. When are you going to accept the fact that you don’t know what you are talking about?
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Here’s one for you Sarah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02t3Wqg-4Iw
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Richard, Theres an OB at my doctors office who is educated about NFP, I see her pretty regularly so between her and my midwife as well as a good book, I think I have been pretty successful with NFP. After using this method for 5 years, and havent become pregnant except when I tried for my son (and got pregnant the first time I tried, only had sex once the day before I ovulated) I think I know what I am doing. Its pretty well known that if you are not married/engaged and/or not catholic, they frown upon people taking the class and will downright refuse some women. I told my dr that she thought it was ridiculous but that it didnt surprise her. I couldnt understand why a church wouldnt want to spread information to be in touch with your body and be responsible for your health.
I am not pro-abortion because I support a womans decison to have an abortion, become a mother or give a baby up for adoption. I support all 3 choices. I guess if you want to get technical you are anti-choice because you don’t support a womans choice. Pro-life means ALL life, not just fetuses and cells. Pro-life means the life of a woman, children already here, against the death pentalty, etc. I think pro-choice people are more prolife because we are pro-life of the woman. HER life is what matters, unless she wants to continue her pregnancy and bring a baby in the world, then they both matter. I use accurate medical terms. You use emotionally charged inaccurate terms. Would you tell a woman who aborted an ectopic pregnancy that she “murdered her baby” or that shes the “mother of a dead baby”? Probably not.
Partial birth abortion is NOT a real medical term. It is an emotionally charged term coined by the antichoice side. You people LOVE to use your own made up terms. oh and lets not forget “post abortion syndrome.
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The laws should protect life that is already here beacue its HERE.
I agree. That’s why I’m Pro-Life. The uterus does not contain an alternate dimension. 9 times out of 10, after two gametes combine, a new organism of the species is created, exists, and IS HERE.
a fertilized egg or embryo is just that.
And “that” is a new organism of the species homo sapiens sapiens, which means a human being. A human being deserving of basic human rights, starting with the right to live. Just that.
Its not fully formed, its still developing.
As is an infant/juvenile/etc… Human beings aren’t “fully-formed” and don’t cease developing until adulthood-even after, really.
If a woman is pregnant and is murdered then I believe the murderer can be charged with 2 counts of murder, corrrect me if I am wrong. I think thats the right thing to do.
Okay. So, if someone else kills the kid, it’s wrong. But if the mom kills the kid, it’s okay. And that makes sense…why?
Its the womans body and her choice.
And it’s her child’s body in their amniotic sac inside her uterus. It shouldn’t be someone else’s legal choice to have that body killed.
I think the woman’s rights are far more important and superior than a clump of cells or a 3 inch fetus.
And I don’t discriminate against certain human beings based on size, age, or level of development. I don’t address other human beings as “clumps of cells”, or believe that a certain age or stage of life makes killing others an acceptable thing to do that should be legal.
I just dont think it should have the same rights and protections as a fully formed human.
As I mentioned earlier, an infant is also not a “fully-formed human” by your standards. Although I’d disagree and say that whether at the stage of embryo/fetus/infant/etc., all human beings are fully-formed for their stage of life. That’s how formed they’re *supposed* to be. A female child 5 months post-birth isn’t supposed to have 3′ long legs and be a C cup. They don’t have those things, but they are fully-developed for the age that they are.
It would create so many problems,
I’m sure laws against many different crimes “create so many problems” for law enforcement and those who engage in such crimes. So?
just look at ectopic pregnancy for example. If the embryo had the same rights or more rights than the woman, the woman would get an automatic death sentence.
No law against abortion anywhere ever has made it illegal to prematurely end a life-threatening pregnancy. No law against ELECTIVE ABORTION ever would. Also, until it is legal to kill pregnant women as it is gestating human beings/children in utero, we are merely fighting for EQUAL rights, not MORE rights for one party over another.
Sometimes a woman needs to be superior to the z/e/f,
No. Sometimes lives have to be taken to save others, or to avoid an even greater disaster of losing the life that would otherwise be taken AND another. That is not considering a mother as “superior” to her child, only that sometimes in the process of trying to save as many lives as possible, a child’s life ends in the process of protecting his or her mother.
and no one has the right to determine when its acceptable or warranted and when its not.
No one has the right to determine when it is acceptable or warranted to end the life of a child.
If we do not allow women to have abortions, then the fetus automatically has more rights than the woman.
Umm…no. A child in utero doesn’t have MORE rights than a woman, only DIFFERENT rights, just as any child has DIFFERENT rights than their parents depending upon their age. When I was 5, I had a right to be provided food, shelter, and care by my parents. I had that RIGHT. And I had that RIGHT regardless of whether or not Mom and Dad wanted do provide those things to me. I had that right because I was their minor child, and they had default custody over me. I wasn’t denying my father any rights because he had to use the money he made with his body working hard at his job to give me Cheerios instead of buying a new motorcycle. He wasn’t my slave, and I didn’t have more rights than he did. He had the right to property, the right to drive a motorcycle if he wanted, the right to vote, and a bunch of other rights I didn’t have. We had DIFFERENT rights due to the parent-child relationship and default guardianship present between us. In the case of a gestating child and mother, that care/shelter/nourishment is in the form of pregnancy.
That is very scary to think about,
What I find more frightening is a mother’s capacity to have one of her children executed to facilitate her ease of living.
that a woman may not have full authority over her own body,
I’m sorry, but I’ve been pregnant twice, and I don’t remember being turned away at the voting booth, having my body searched and my property confiscated, it being legal to rape me, police coming to my house and putting me in cuffs for eating cold cuts, or anything remotely like that. I had rights to my body, and they should’ve had rights to their bodies while theirs happened to be inside mine.
and that a fertilized egg, 2 cells that just happen to meet are more important than she is. The two are apples and oranges. They are not the same.A person alrady here is not the same as the products of conception.
Except that _x_ amount of years ago, that woman was herself also “2 cells that just happened to meet” (once again, not *MORE* important than the pregnant woman, but EQUALLY important). Not “apples and oranges”, but “unripe apples and ripe apples” or “unripe oranges and ripe oranges”. Same-same, one younger than the other. A human being is the product of conception between two other human beings according to the Law of Biogenesis. After conception they are just as much “already here” as their parents. The uterus is not an alternate dimension, and gestation is not some flux-state between probability and reality. Gestating children are not holograms.
It can never be.
It was before and will be again. Justice will win out in the end.
THey can never be equal because to grant equal rights to the fetus, takes away rights of the mother. It just isnt logically possible
Parenthood is not slavery. No rights are lost by being a parent. There is no right to kill to escape parenthood.
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Heres an article from NPR.org “Partial Birth Abortion, Seperating fact from Spin” I didnt copy the entire article, just the main points I felt were worth mentioning
The Supreme Court’s decision to consider the constitutionality of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act has once again pushed the abortion issue into the spotlight.
The law, which was signed by President Bush in 2003 after an eight-year-long congressional fight, prohibits doctors from knowingly performing a “partial-birth abortion,” a procedure it defines as one in which the person performing the abortion “deliberately and intentionally vaginally delivers a living fetus until, in the case of a head-first presentation, the entire fetal head is outside the body of the mother, or, in the case of breech presentation, any part of the fetal trunk past the navel is outside the body of the mother.”
But “partial-birth” is not a medical term. It’s a political one, and a highly confusing one at that, with both sides disagreeing even on how many procedures take place, at what point in pregnancy, and exactly which procedures the law actually bans.
Nov. 5, 2003: The Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act is signed into law by President Bush. The National Abortion Federation challenges the law in court, and blocks the enforcement of the law for its members.
June 2004: In Planned Parenthood v. Ashcroft, a federal district judge in California strikes down the law because of the “undue burden” it places on the woman and her health, and the vague language contained in it.
August 2004: In NAF v. Ashcroft, a New York district judge deems the law unconstitutional because it does not contain exceptions protecting a women’s health.
July 2004: In Carhart v. Gonzales, three judges of the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously agree that “because the Act does not contain a health exception, it is unconstitutional.”
September 2004: In Carhart v. Ashcroft, U.S. District Judge Richard Kopf of Nebraska concludes that, “in the absence of an exception for the health of a woman, banning the procedure constitutes a significant health hazard to women.”
So to better understand the facts behind the controversy, we asked NPR health correspondent Julie Rovner to explain the origins of both the name and the procedure.
Where does the term “partial-birth” abortion come from?
The term was first coined by the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC) in 1995 to describe a recently introduced medical procedure to remove fetuses from the womb. Alternately known as “dilation and extraction,” or D&X, and “intact D&E,” it involves removing the fetus intact by dilating a pregnant woman’s cervix, then pulling the entire body out through the birth canal.
After a physician presented a paper at a conference of the National Abortion Federation describing the new procedure, the NRLC commissioned drawings to illustrate it and published them in booklet form, as well as placing them as paid advertisements in newspapers to build public opposition. In an interview with The New Republic magazine in 1996, the NRLC’s Douglas Johnson explained that the term was thought up in hopes that “as the public learns what a ‘partial-birth abortion’ is, they might also learn something about other abortion methods, and that this would foster a growing opposition to abortion.”
In 1995, Rep. Charles Canady (R-FL) included the term as part of a bill he proposed that would make it a federal crime to perform a “partial-birth” abortion. (That year, the Ohio state legislature also passed the first state ban, but it was struck down by a federal district court; the Supreme Court later refused to hear an appeal.)
If this procedure is so controversial, then why was it developed in the first place?
The further along a pregnancy is, the more complicated — and the more controversial — the procedures are for aborting it. Abortions performed after the 20th week of pregnancy typically require that the fetus be dismembered inside the womb so it can be removed without damaging the pregnant woman’s cervix. Some gynecologists consider such methods, known as “dilation and evacuation,” less than ideal because they can involve substantial blood loss and may increase the risk of lacerating the cervix, potentially undermining the woman’s ability to bear children in the future.
Two abortion physicians, one in Ohio and one in California, independently developed variations on the method by extracting the fetus intact. The Ohio physician, Martin Haskell, called his method “dilation and extraction,” or D&X. It involved dilating the woman’s cervix, then pulling the fetus through it feet first until only the head remained inside. Using scissors or another sharp instrument, the head was then punctured, and the skull compressed, so it, too, could fit through the dilated cervix.
Haskell has said that he devised his D&X procedure because he wanted to find a way to perform second-trimester abortions without an overnight hospital stay, because local hospitals did not permit most abortions after 18 weeks.
How often is the D&X procedure performed?
According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, an abortion-rights research group that conducts surveys of the nation’s abortion doctors, about 15,000 abortions were performed in the year 2000 on women 20 weeks or more along in their pregnancies; the vast majority were between the 20th and 24th week. Of those, only about 2,200 D&X abortions were performed, or about 0.2 percent of the 1.3 million abortions believed to be performed that year.
And contrary to the claims of some abortion opponents, most such abortions do not take place in the third trimester of pregnancy, or after fetal “viability.” Indeed, when some members of Congress tried to amend the bill to ban only those procedures that take place after viability, abortion opponents complained that would leave most of the procedures legal.
Under what health circumstances are D&X abortions performed?
There is currently no statistical information available on why “dilation and extraction” abortions are performed.
In a widely-publicized interview with The New York Times in 1997, Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers, estimated that in the majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother and healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along in development.
Yet the procedure is also performed in cases where the woman’s health is at risk, or when the fetus shows signs of serious abnormalities, some of which don’t become apparent until late in pregnancy.
Take, for example, cases in which the fetus develops hydrocephalus (commonly known as water on the brain). Often undetectable until well into the second three months of pregnancy, the condition causes enlargement of the skull up to two-and-a-half times its normal size. It not only results in severe brain damage to the fetus, it can also create severe health risks to the mother if she tries to deliver it vaginally.
Some doctors say D&X abortion is a preferable method for ending such pregnancies without damaging the woman’s cervix. Those in the anti-abortion camp, however, argue that the procedure is never medically necessary, noting that enough fluid can be drained from hydrocephalus babies in the womb to ensure a safe delivery.
Indeed, many abortion opponents believe even severely deformed fetuses should be delivered regardless of their prospects for a healthy life.
“We don’t believe that sick babies — babies with disabilities — should be pulled out by the legs and struck through the head,” Right to Life’s Johnson told The New Republic. “We believe they should live out their life — whether it’s a few minutes or six hours.”
Are there any alternatives to these procedures?
Sometimes. Labor can be induced, or the fetus can be removed by caesarian section in some cases.
Has the Supreme Court weighed in on this issue before?
Yes. In the year 2000, the court struck down a Nebraska law banning any abortion procedure that “partially evacuates fetal material through the cervix into the birth canal.”
By a 5-4 ruling, the majority in Stenberg v. Carhart said Nebraska’s ban was unconstitutionally vague and lacked a needed exception allowing the procedure to be used to protect the health of the pregnant mother.
How does all this relate to the larger abortion debate?
Activists on both sides of the issues see the constitutionality of the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act as pivotal to the larger debate. Abortion-rights backers say the ban is a first step toward trying to outlaw all abortions. Even some supporters of the ban say that if it is upheld, they could then move on to try to outlaw the far more common D&E procedure, whose description is nearly as unpleasant as that of the D&X.
The court could also use the law to address the “health” exception currently required for all abortion restrictions. Abortion foes say the current health exception upheld by the court is so broad — encompassing mental health problems as well as physical ones — that just about any abortion-procedure ban would have to be invalidated. But abortion-rights supporters say that without a health exception, women could be forced to carry to term fetuses with no chance at life, but whose birth could leave the pregnant women unable to carry a later pregnancy, or could exacerbate serious ailments such as diabetes.
There ya go. They even ADMIT to creating the term to stir peoples emotions.
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The breast cancer/abortion connectioon (more infor from NAF.org)
THE ABORTION AND BREAST CANCER MYTH
No causal relationship between abortion and breast cancer has been scientifically established. Nevertheless, the anti-choice community continues to claim an association between abortion and an increased risk of breast cancer. Through propaganda, poorly designed and interpreted research studies, and misinformation, anti-choice groups attempt to dissuade women from choosing abortion by exploiting their fear of breast cancer.
In fact, in March of 2003 the National Cancer Institute (NCI) declared emphatically that “newer studies consistently showed no association between induced and spontaneous abortions and breast cancer risk.” NCI convened a symposium of over 100 of the world’s leading experts to review existing studies on the relationship between pregnancy, abortion, miscarriage and breast cancer risk and concluded that having an abortion does not increase a woman’s subsequent risk of developing breast cancer.
And yet anti-choice groups continue to wage well-publicized campaigns to spread their misleading information. These groups were behind recent attempts to pressure the NCI to change its patient information on abortion and breast cancer. NCI ultimately realized the need to base policy decisions on science and not political pressure, but other agencies may not be so vigilant. Armed with data from flawed or inappropriately interpreted research studies, anti-choice forces are lobbying state legislators for laws that mandate discussion of an increased risk of breast cancer as a recognized risk of abortion
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Obama does not say pregnancy is a punishment. YOU, anti choice people USE pregnacy as a punishment for women who choose to have sex. Pregnancy is a punishment when a woman is forced to carry a pregnancy rather than choosing to and having options.
Its like saying “oh you irresponsible 17 year old, you had sex now deal with the consequesnces of having sex”
When a consequesnce is something that is undesirable, it is a punishment.
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I really want to emphasize this part of an article I found. It is very well said and addresses the fact that antichoice people use medically inaccurate, emotionally charged terms.
We can’t have an honest discussion about abortion rights if people are using emotionally-charged, incorrect terminology. There is no such thing as an unborn baby. If it isn’t born, it isn’t a baby. There are embryos, fetuses and zygotes – none of these are a baby. The ‘pro-life’ movement has been very successful at integrating emotionally-charged phrases such as ‘unborn baby’ into the mainstream abortion debate, leading the public to believe that women regularly decide to abort 7 and 8-month old fetuses because their cute clothes don’t fit anymore. As usual, ‘pro-life’ deceives and the reality is quite different: study after study reveals that an overwhelming majority of abortions occur during the first trimester of pregnancy.
I guess Hasan doesn’t consider women who are forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term to be voiceless. Not being able to terminate an unwanted pregnancy would make me feel pretty damn voiceless, like a victim of my anatomy whose duty it is to give birth against my will. When he mentions weak and vulnerable it’s tempting to counter his statement with facts about the vast array of medical complications that can arise when a woman is pregnant, leaving her weak and vulnerable, but I don’t think it’s right to continually emphasize medical reasons as abortion exceptions. A woman doesn’t need to be near death in order to seek an abortion; in fact she doesn’t need to have any medical complications at all. All that’s required is for her to not want to be pregnant.
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Taken from an article “top 10 abortion Myths”http://civilliberty.about.com/od/abortion/tp/abortionmyths.htm
2. “Abortion causes breast cancer.”
Image courtesy of the National Cancer Institute.
Mostly false. In 1997, the New England Journal of Medicine published the largest-scale study ever on this subject–with 1.5 million participants–which concluded that there is no independent link between abortion and breast cancer. Clearly if abortion does increase the risk of breast cancer, it does so by an undetectably small margin. Becoming pregnant and carrying a pregnancy to term may, however, reduce the risk of breast cancer.
3. “This is what an abortion looks like.”
Commons.
Almost always false. Many abortion protest photographs are artist’s renderings or the result of image manipulation, and the bulk of the rest are of very late-term fetuses aborted for emergency medical reasons. The most well-known graphic abortion poster is of a 30-week-old fetus, aborted six full weeks into the third trimester. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and Roe v. Wade only protects first and second trimester abortions.
4. “Even first-trimester fetuses can feel pain.”
False. Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex–which is not formed until early in the third trimester.
5. “Fetuses become conscious at 8 weeks.”
PhoCommons.
False. Fetuses begin to develop a minimal brain stem at 7 weeks, but are not capable of consciousness until the third trimester and most likely remain unconscious until birth. As one brain scientist puts it: “the fetus and neonate appears incapable of … experiencing or generating ‘true’ emotion or any semblance of higher order, forebrain mediated cognitive activity.”
6. “Emergency contraception causes abortions.”
Image courtesy of the Seattle/King County Public Health Department.
False. Emergency contraception prevents pregnancy from occurring in the first place by blocking fertilization of the egg and subsequent implantation in the uterus; it does not, and cannot, induce abortions. If your objective is to reduce the number of abortions, then the single most effective thing you can do to achieve that goal is to help make emergency contraception universally available over the counter.
7. “Banning abortion will get rid of it, once and for all.”
Commons.
False. In El Salvador, abortion is illegal with a possible 30-year prison sentence attached–and women can still easily obtain cheap black market abortificients to induce abortion. The only drawback? No medical supervision. Banning abortion won’t put an end to abortion, but it will put women’s lives at risk.
8. “Pro-choice activists want to increase the number of abortions.”
Commons.
False. Pro-choice activists lead the charge in advocating comprehensive sex education, increased access to birth control, condom use, and emergency contraception, all of which reduce the incidence of abortion. Strangely, anti-abortion activists work equally hard to make these options more difficult to access–creating the impression that the anti-abortion movement is more concerned with sexual purity than abortion.
10. “Human life begins at conception.”
False. Human life actually begins prior to conception, because each sperm and egg cell is a living thing. It is more relevant to discuss when sentience, or self-awareness, begins. In 2000, the British House of Lords established a Commission of Inquiry into Fetal Sentience, which estimated that higher-level brain development begins to commence at about 23 weeks.
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If it isn’t born, it isn’t a baby.
What is he called if he is partially born? If there is an abortionist in the room, he is called d.e.a.d.
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“We can’t have an honest discussion about abortion rights if people are using emotionally-charged, incorrect terminology. There is no such thing as an unborn baby.”
We have ultrasounds that show unborn humans are babies in every way except where they are located and somehow the pro-abortion zealots like Sarah are still trying to deny science. Sarah, can you explain this to me? Scientifically, how does location make make the difference between being a person and not being a person?
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The term is pro-life, not antichoice.
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Yes, I am prolife and I am all for choice! Keep it or place it for adoption. Those are your choices. Murder isn’t a choice.
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sarah said “YOU, anti choice people USE pregnacy as a punishment for women who choose to have sex. Pregnancy is a punishment when a woman is forced to carry a pregnancy rather than choosing to and having options.”
sarah,what you are saying is a nonsense.
Every thing , every choice we make in life has consequences. If you don’t believe me,try putting diesel in a gasoline engine. The same is true for sex. If you “choose” to have sex at inappropriate age with everyone you like or anytime you want, it’s very likely that you will have a baby. Why should the baby be punished (with a death sentence) for your irresponsible behavior? Should the gas station be punished because you filled your tank with diesel?
Theresa expressed it very well: “Keep it or place it for adoption. Murder isn’t a choice.”
One more observation. You call pro-lifers: “anti-choice”.That label is totally incorrect. As a matter of fact we ask for the women to have the choice to see their baby in ultrasound before having an abortion and hear their heartbeat. That something pro-abortion folks strongly oppose, because they only want one choice: death!
About Obama and his view of a baby as a punishment, here it is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNbaig-D5pk
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Richard, We oppose FORCING a woman to view an ultra sound and hearing medically inaccurate information. If a woman wants to see it, she will ask and she will. Why do there need to be laws that force and manipulate women? Who is anyone else to tell her that shes not making a sound decison unless she follows certain guidlines? WHy cant we trust women to decide for herself if she needs to see an ultrasound or not? A woman knows what she is pregnant with and doesnt need to see an ultrasound to figure that out. If she has made up her mind about what she needs to do, than nothing will change her mind. She doesnt need a law to tell her how to handle her medical information. THere are no laws that say a person with cancer needs to see a xray of there tumor before starting chemo or having surgery to remove it. There are no laws that say a woman needs to see pictures of a person with or without peircings before they electivly get their tongue pierced. People are responsible for knowing what they are getting themselves into.. YOu may say that women need to be protected from unethical doctors and clinics and shown the truth, well that sentiment could be applied to any medical clinic or facility. In my state, we dont have those laws. When I worked at a clinic, some women wanted to see, others specifically requested that they didnt see. We had the ultrasound machine in full view of the woman. Some women requersted a ultrasound picture to take home. We requested all womens decisons and choices. If a woman changes her minf=d about having an abortion because she WANTED to see an ultrasound,then all the power to her and I am glad she had that option. But if a woman is forced to view an ultrasound who really doesnt want to see it, thats wrongf and manipulative.A woman knows what she can and can not hanlde and should be trusted to make those decisions for herself without anti-choice laws trying to stop her and control her. I really think that a lot of these laws are not nessesarily about protecting the fetus rather than controlling and not trusting women. When it comes down to it, whats it to you if a woman sees an ultrasound or not, and if she has and abortion or not, unless its your own pregnancy? Its not about the money either. I made $12 an hour working less than 20 hours a week. I couldnt survive on that income but stayed at the job because I knew I was making a positive impact and helping women. Often times the staff at the clinic were the only people who respected the women, didnt abuse or or coerce her, and treated her with dignity and unconditional positive regard. Its important to not judge, respect womens choice even if I disagree, and be kind. I know I made a difference in womens lives. In addition, we never turned a woman down for the inability to pay. Some women paid $50 for an abortion, some paid nothing. We lost money, so its not about making a profit. I know the drs made about $30 to $40 a procedure. say they make $400 in a day. Doctors do it bc they want women to have a coice, not for profit. If it was about the money they would choose a more lucrative practice that DOESNT put their lives in danger. You cant put a price tag on personal safety. The antichoice camp is infamous for making clinic staff feel threatened. No one should worry for their life for what they do for work
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Praxedes, Thank you for the article. I really enjoy reading the articles and videos you guys post for me to try and change my mind. Sometimes they make me laugh and shake my head, and other times I learn from them. I feel that a person can not really learn about a toic by just reading or talking with only people who they agree with. To fully understand a subject and be well rounded a person needs to know both sides of the argument. Learning and familiarizing onesself with the other side of an argument, at least for me, helps me develop and think about why I feel the way I do.
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Obama said that If his daughters make a mistake, he does not want them punished with a baby or an STD. He was implying that we need comprehensive sex education, and that if one of his daughters, or anyones daughters for that matte, should happen to unintentionally become pregnant at a time in there life that was less than ideal and it was not a wanted pregnancy, then they shouldnt be forced into pregnancy and punished by forcing them to continue that pregnancy. How many times has the anti choice side said “if you choose to have sex, and get pregnant, you should have known pregnancy was a possobilty so dont punish a baby for your mistake” or “if you are responsible enough to have sex you seal with the consequenses” Or another statement similar. The antichoice side frequently uses this argument and they themselves turn pregnancy and babies into a punishment for having premarital sex. Its like saying that you get what you deserve. You should be punished for not abstaining and deal with the consequesnces. The prochoice side does not want women to be punished with a forced pregnancy for making a mistake, the antichoice side WANTS women to be punished for their mistake. Obama DID NOT SAY “babies are a punishment” He said He didnt want his daughters punished with a baby if they made a mistake. It never ceases to amaze me how the antichoice side constantly puts words into peoples mouths, manipulates and emotionally charges everything, and makes anyone who is prochoice out to be some evil person. I bet you all know people who are prochoice but otherwise agree on many other issues as you, and are good people.. Did you ever think that some of your kids teachers, doctors, waitresses at restaraunt, family or friends, people at your church or just people you meet and cross paths with everyday are prochoice? And they are probably goopd people if oyu choose to associate with them
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Sarah,
You really have no idea what you are talking about.
An ultrasound is to be OFFERED to a woman seeking an abortion. And every abortionist and proabort OPPOSES it whenever an ultrasound bill comes up. Any thoughts on why they don’t want women to see the truth of the child they carry inside??
Obama doesn’t want his daughters punished with a baby.
Translation He will allow them the “opportunity” to kill his grandchildren.
If you are prochoice on abortion you are proabortion. Pretty simple really.
Life begins at conception. We all started out the same way. We believe in the sanctity of life from conception to natural death.
You think a mom paying an abortionist to kill her child is A OK. Own it.
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This has nothing to do with being a “good” person.
Abortion is evil.
Without the right to life all other rights are meaningless.
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Sarah, I agree with Carla, you are seriously confused!
But, let me ask you a question…why do you fear the ultrasound or listening to the heartbeat? If what you say were true, offering the ultrasound or the heartbeat or describing the stage of the baby shouldn’t make any impact on mothers who have decided to have an abortion. Except it does! Mothers cancel abortions, workers change their minds, lives are saved.
My guess is that you dread showing the ultrasound because it will uncover the lies of the abortion industry, your own lies.
Yes, sarah, when you worked at the clinic you had an impact: a very negative one even on yourself.
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FOr people who are suposedly chiristian and worship Christ and everything he stand for, you are all pretty judgmental, presumputous and hateful towards someone whom you disagree with.
First of all, I NEVER said I feared anything. There is nothing about seeing an ultrasound or hearing a heartbeat that scares me, nor showing a woman in an abortion clinic. I believe all women should have the option to see the ultrasound or hear the heartbeat but she doesnt need a law telling her she must. Its her right if she doesnt want to.ITs sbout what a woman wants NOT WHAT YOU WANT THE WOMAN TO DO. Its like you people want to do everything possible to punish women for a choice you disagree with. Abortion is not killing a baby. Its not an unborn child, its an embryo/fetus that is potential life. Potential life is not life that is already here. I dont understand why potential life should have more rights than people who are here. WHy is a fetus more important than a woman? Because its human? Just because its a potential life doesnt mean it needs to be born unless the woman decides. Period. I am not afraid of showing anywoman the truth about abortion. My truth is just that, THE TRUTH, presented as factual information, with compassion, no judgement no matter what her choice and understanding. If an ultrasound changes a womans mind, good for her, I am happy for her bc abortion probably wasnt the best choice FOR HER. If it doesnt change her mind, then thats ok too bc its her choice NOT YOURS. I have asked this question a few times, WHATS IT TO ANY OF YOU IF A FERTILIZED EGG OR FETUS IS NOT BORN? Why dont you care more about the people you do know, who are here on this earth as existing human beings? Why is potential life more important? Other than your emotional responses, there is no reason. Humans are very overpopulated and ruining this planet. Why bring more life into this world if its not going to be cared fro properly, be unwanted, abused, starve, or end up in foster care, severly disabled, die shortly after birth, etc.? Did you ever think maybe god gave humans the ability to do abortions so that women had options and could control when and how they have children? Maybe god gave us wonderful doctors like George Tiller, and gave us the ability to know how to safelty terminate a pregnancy. Let me make this clear. I feel guilty about nothing I did when I worked at an abortion clinic. The doctors were compassionete and kind. One doctor used to ask every patient as she got on the table if she was sure this is what she needed to do, and that she could still change her mind but once the prcedure started there was no turning back. Also, all women got private counseling to make sure no one was pressuring or forcing her into abortion. We gave out pregnancy option workbooks that include all 3 options. If women were reluctant, we told them that they should go home. We refused some abortions bc the women were unsure and we didnt want them to have regrets. WHen i was pregnant with my daughter I had an appt for an abortion but I canceled it. The staff at the same clinic I worked for helped me more than my own family. They gave me referalls for assistance, housing, foodstamps, even a pregnancy center than could help me wiht clothed. One of the nurses gave me her home phone number and told me to call he for anything, she knew I was in an abusive relationship. They supported my choice to keep my daughter. Not because they were proabortion but bc they were PRO CHOICE and honest to goodness wonderful people. I dare any of you to go to a clinic and let your judgemental gaurd down and just see what type of people work there. Obviously, like any medical practice there are good and bad clinics, there are good and bad veterinarians, mechanics, restaraunts, pediatricans, etc.
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To answer your question, we do not need laws forcing or offering anything to women. If she wants to see an ultrasound or hear the heartbeat, she will. These laws are meant to chip away at a womans right to her own choices and body and they assume that women are stupid and ignorant. Why cant you trust a woman to make that choice herself? WHy dont you insist that a woman see a picture of a tumor before she has chemo or hear her own heartbeat before surgery? Or see an xray of a broken bone before getting a cast. You know the bone is broken, so you just fix it. If you want to see the xray of your bone, you ask. Women already have the right to see or read any information in there health records. So there is no need for any law restricting womens access or trying to manipulate women. NONE. I trust women to make that choice for themselves. Another BS law is making women listen to bogus information about abortion, like the increase in breast cancer risk, PAS, fetal development etc. Its all WRONG to force inaccurate info on any woman. Trust doctors to do there job. They are doctors bc they went to med school and are held to high standards. Why make laws, in guise of protecting women when its really about control and manipulation?? 24 hour waiting periods are even worse. Why do you need to add an extra burden on women, an extra day? it adds unnessesry cost, time, travel and expense. These laws actually make women have later abortions bc they need to save money to sometimes travel long distances to get to a clinic, overnight stays etc. I would rather see a woman get an abortion at 6 weeks than wait until 16 weeks because she didnt have the funds and the laws made it difficult for her to exercise her right to choose. If a woman is pregnant and wants an abortion, she will get one, no matter what laws or regulations. If she wants one and doesnt have access bc of people like you supporting these laws, then she has been punished and denied her right to medical care adn the right to control her body. A woman has more of a right to have an abortion and decide if she wants to continue a pregnancy than the embryo/fetus has the right to live. Yes it a developing human and its sad, I wish we didnt need abortion, but its a fact of life and society isnt very supporting of families and mothers so it is what it is.
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Hi Sarah,
I know that you feel attacked by many of us pro-lifers on this thread but I don’t intend to be one of them. While I disagree with your conclusions, I applaud the good faith of your attempts to do the right thing. This issue is provocative for both sides, but anger doesn’t make anything clearer (I say this to everyone here).
I made some comments for you on February 15, but I am not sure if you saw them. Please read them and let me know your thoughts.
The idea that feminism requires abortion is a common one, especially in pro-choice camps, but I believe that it is one based on incomplete logic, and that it is only a matter of time before we start to see things more clearly. It’s already happening – young people may be less and less religious, but they are more likely than ever to be pro-life.
My opinion is that abortion tries too hard to make women into men. It is the confusion of what happens when women think that in order to be equal with men we have to behave like men. Unfortunately, we aren’t men, and we can’t change that. For some horrible reason, we don’t get the same pleasure out of sex (70% of women never or rarely orgasm during intercourse compared to 0% of men; 10% of women never orgasm ever), we still get burdened with the brunt of the responsibility in providing birth control, dealing with an unintended pregnancy, etc. and, despite all our career ambitions, many of us still want to become married mothers in the end.
In a society that values women for their sexual availability without commitment, and punishes them for wanting to take time out of their career to raise children, abortion may seem necessary, but calling it feminist is, unfortunately, naive.
To (again) quote Frederica Mathewes-Green: “Abortion is not convenient, either, except for a society that doesn’t want to be troubled by pregnant women’s problems. At some level the woman choosing abortion knows that it is her own child who is dying; to achieve this bitter end she must pay several hundred dollars cash and endure the invasion of her body by a suction probe—an experience that can leave its own scars. Abortion may appear the least painful of several excruciating choices, but it makes women neither happy nor free.”
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Sarah,
Why do you always pass up my comments and opt to answer those of the religious people here? Is it because it’s easier for you to pummel the “God” strawman than actually address the abortion issue from a secular Pro-Lifer?
“Each of us began life as a single cell stocked with DNA inherited from our parents.” – Biology, 8th Ed., Campbell, Reece, pg. 8
That is from a college-level Biology texbook. It doesn’t say “We each gained the potential for life”. It states very plainly where each of our lives BEGIN. Nothing “potential” about it. When you state that gestating children are not “actual”, but merely “potential” and are not “already here”, you are spreading disinformation, and such a statement is neither scientifically-sound or factually-accurate to make. You said yourself “The law should protect lives that are already here…” Well, there you have it. Gestating children are “already here” and should be protected by law.
I’ve had my eyebrow pierced twice, my labret done twice, and my tongue done once. EVERY SINGLE TIME, they sat me down beforehand and went through cleaning instructions, what to beware of, and possible negative effects of having my piercings (particularly with my tongue and labret-swallowing the ball and gum erosion are two very real dangers, and I like being aware of them). That was just for putting a piece of metal through my face that I could remove any time I wanted with very few if any lasting consequences!! I’ve taken my kids to the doctor for bronchitis/suspected pneumonia and had the doctor look over the chest x-ray with me WITHOUT ME ASKING, because it’s what a good doctor does.
Have you googled “embryo definition” lately?
em·bry·o
/?embr???/
Noun
An unborn or unhatched offspring in the process of development.
An unborn human baby, esp. in the first eight weeks from conception, after implantation but before all the organs are developed.
If you want to cite that first definition because the second one gives you the hebie-jeebies, just google “offspring definition”.
offspring plural of off·spring (Noun)
Noun
A person’s child or children.
An animal’s young.
Would you please start answering my comments now, and please go back and take a look at my last one, too, okay?
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Dear Sarah,
I was never given an ultrasound before my abortion. I was told “it was just a bunch of cells” I was shown a video of a clump of red circles.
I was 10 weeks along!! Google fetal development my dear.
Why wasn’t I given informed consent?? Why wasn’t I told THE TRUTH??
They preyed on my fear and desperation and ignorance. There is no informed consent with abortion.
So fighting Women’s Right to Know bills shows how much you “care” about women?! Keep them in the dark, sell them an abortion, show them the door and let them live with the pain and grief and regret for the rest of their lives.
PS
My daughter that died that day 22 years ago in an abortion mill? Her name is Aubrey.
You can make up all the excuses you would like. Travel? Expenses? Trust women?
Abortion ends the life of an innocent human being and wounds a mother. There is no getting around it.
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Oh man, a live one. I get the stomach flu (given to me by one of my products of conception who I allowed to live…an abortion could’ve solved how incredibly inconvenient this weekend was!) and I miss all the fun and fireworks.
Sarah, Anastasia may not want to attack you on this thread, but she does not speak for me. I absolutely rebuke you and the lies you spread to my sisters around the world. Your sad, sorry argument that the unborn are not truly human is laughable as it is confronted by the science we have today, but the saddest part of all of it? It is the argument that has been used again and again by the powerful over the weak to retain their power.
Deny their humanity! (Armenians got slaughtered)
Deny thier humanity! (A whole race was enslaved and abused)
Deny their humanity! (see: Holocaust)
Deny their humanity! (see: American suffragists)
Deny their humanity! (see the millions who have died from abortion).
If I were a rapper, I’d start throwing down like this:
Your rhet’ric is pathetic…
(I rather like that one.) In every single instance, someone has been denied their civil AND natural rights because another group insisted on having the life they wanted. Their is no liberation through killing the innocent. Why don’t you know that?
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Sarah – You said of abortion, “it’s sad” but that that’s just how it is. I wonder why you think that. If abortion is not taking the life of a human being, no justification is necessary. If it is taking the life of a human being, no justification is sufficient.
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Sarah, I want to assure you that I am not judging you. I respect you and I actually feel very sad when I read your comments and think ‘how did we get to believe that good is bad and bad is good”?
Maybe, the feelings of judgement come from inside of you? In that case they are very positive!
I bet it’s really hard to keep on telling yourself and others that a pre-born human being is a “potential life” as well as the overpopulation argument, etc!
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God did bring beauty out of ashes! A beautiful testimony of God’s healing love! God bless you Anna and Josey! Thank you for sharing!
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You can carry on all you want about how it’s the rapist’s fault, although to force a child, adolescent or woman to stay pregnant when there is the emergency contraception pill, it is behavior worthy of a Nazi. Parents are supposed to care for their child and know more about life so when they make their child get an abortion they are not Nazis. I know prolifers will never see the difference. They cannot see the distinction for emotional reasons. That’s fine with me.
Praxedes (2/15/13) gave a link to an answer believed to be an objective answer to those who favor choice in regard to abortion. From your point of view maybe. But not from mine.
The essence of his lengthy arguments revolve around word games. Also called word smithing. So he has everyone agreeing that “A fetus is a fetus” and that “Life is life,” it does not follow that all life is human life. Or if its alive, it’s a human being.
Everyone would agree that a leaf is a leaf. And that a leaf is alive because it grows.
Or would everyone agree with that–that a leaf is alive?
Is it murder to kill something that is alive? In the fall when the wind scatters the leaves of trees and renders them bare, have murders been committed?
When you shake leaves from a tree or pull excess leaves from a rose bush, are you committing murder because you are causing the death of leaves in a certain stage of development? They would grow if left on the plant.
So it’s some kind of killing or murder if you keep an egg from union with a sperm by using a condom or emergency contraception (in case of rape). Or, there is a spiritual religious reason given for why the Catholic Church and antiaborts are against contraception. For example they will bring God into the argument, or that souls are being killed. Neither one can be seen.
God is not obvious, like seeing a leaf with your eyes. Everyone has experiences of knowing, seeing what a leaf is like. Not everyone believes in God, so you can’t use that in your argument. If you have God as part of your argument, you can prove anything you like, since God is all powerful and can ordain anything. What’s to stop you from saying, no matter how something turns out, “God wanted it that way” just to win the argument?
Not everything living is a human being. A leaf is not a human being. One cell or a collection of 100 fetal cells or the cells of a zygote is not a human being. It does not function like a human being as most people use those words.
For antiabortionists, anatomy is everything. Function means next to nothing.
You cannot argue antiabortion without bringing in your religious beliefs and forcing them on others under the ruse of kindness. OR you point out some part of an immature stage of anatomy (zygote or fetus) and say that a part is equal to the whole (being of an adolescent or woman). This is a fallacy in your logic. It is illogical and does not make sense. I imagine this lack extends to other topics that you don’t mention.
I am not a religious person but the constant berating of religion because it’s main function is to CONTROL PEOPLE THROUGH FEAR is boring. Those who believe that are easily frightened. More to the point it is unproven. Every religion has its own dogmas and depends on who is running the show and their interpretation how much it will benefit the followers. It is meant to help people go through life. If someone wants a church like a vehicle to go through life, it’s like a car to go to work. I see great value in that.
I read that Pope John Paul I during his very brief existence as Pope had plans to revise some of the Catholic Churches teaching on contraception (according to his writing) before he was murdered. Popes are surrounded by very powerful people, just like presidents, these people have their own agendas, for various complex reasons.
I think peoople are against the Catholic Church because of the current stand on abortion and not against say, Goldman Sachs, another very corrupt financial institution with their million dollar bonuses at the end of the year, because they don’t appear to be against abortion. Look at the Libor scandal and fixing of bank interest rates. This involves all central banks (including the FED) all over the world, colluding with the main banks of London, England. No doubt the Vatican Bank is tied into that.
The Catholic Church has been infiltrated by pedophiles, some unknown group controlling the selection process. The focus of the T.V. and news on this travesty has been going on for decades. The pedophiles in the Jewish religion disappear from the news almost as soon as it’s printed. It’s not possible to argue there are more pedophiles among Baptists due to the way news and numbers are fixed. However, it is singularly strange and unnatural that the Catholic Church is 98% pedophiles while the other religions share the other 2%. Things don’t happen that way in nature unless there is coercion in the reporting or getting it that way. But no one seems to care about the cause.
Just like being single or a priest doesn’t make you a pedophile, being married doesn’t make you normal for those homosexuals who are. Being in a same-sex “marriage” doesn’t mean you are never going to receive criticism. Yet, such pretend marriages are heralded on T.V. and the news, like never before in the history of this country and I think it shows who has control of what’s on T.V. They want only favorable stuff about themselves and are intolerant of others taking action to the contrary. Don’t they try to control through FEAR by saying the other person is discriminating against them.
Things and people are complex and motivated by complex reasons, not “just a simple inconvenience.”
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I love it when people accuse others of irrationality and not having a basis for their beliefs… and then go ahead and write a whole wall o’ text with irrational statements and fallacious reasoning. At least two people have done this on this thread, their blindness to themselves is stunning.
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“I love it when people accuse others of irrationality and not having a basis for their beliefs… and then go ahead and write a whole wall o’ text with irrational statements and fallacious reasoning. At least two people have done this on this thread, their blindness to themselves is stunning.”
I know, it really is quite amusing. Some people here seem to think an abundance of words makes up for a shortage of facts.
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I stopped following this thread somewhere around the person who said that we should force all raped women to abort, because it’s just disgusting, but I feel the need to hop back in now.
Sarah. The basis for some secular pro-life arguments is pretty simple. We extend legal protection to those in the human community out of at least self-interest, if not altruism. All humans should be legally protected, because most of us have some will to live and would not like our ability to live taken from us, when we have no say, depending on our circumstances and lack of ability to care for ourselves. For example, we agree as a society to protect neonates legally from abuse and murder, even though they probably would never know or care if they were smothered or poisoned (as long as no pain was involved), because we have agreed as a society and through biological evidence that newborns belong to the human community, we were all at that stage in development at one point, and that at that stage we deserve the same protections as self-aware, thinking adults. There is sufficient biological evidence that a human fetus is a distinct individual that belongs to our species, and pro-lifers would like to extend the legal protections that apply to born people to this class of humans that now is lacking them, for the same reasons we protect neonates.
Also, we believe that the right to your life is the most basic right of them all, before body autonomy (which is the second most important right, imo). If you are not alive, you cannot exercise any rights, so it follows that the right not to be deprived of your life is the most basic right that all other rights stem from. Body autonomy is important and closely related to the right to life, but slightly less important. Rights are curtailed when a lesser right conflicts with a more important right; the lesser right has to be curtailed. For example, you have the freedom of speech, but a person’s right to be free of bodily harm means that it’s not protected free speech to incite violence toward an individual. So, when the human fetus’s right to life comes into conflict with the mother’s right to body autonomy, the less basic and important right is curtailed, meaning the mother can’t kill the child to protect her wish to do as she pleases with her body.
Anyway, that’s a very basic rundown of why some pro-lifers who aren’t religious believe as they do. Stop burning strawmen and actually argue against arguments that people are putting out. Stop ignoring Xalisae or me so you can rail against religion in an uneducated fashion. You obviously don’t know the first thing about what most sociologists believe about how religion came to exist and the purpose it served for the human race, and you’re embarrassing the good names of atheists and agnostics everywhere by making sweeping, silly statements about it. Honestly, I find atheist idiocy just as annoying as religious idiocy. It makes you sound about thirteen (which you might be, actually).
And to TMBT, I am wondering if you are trolling because I would like to believe no one can be quite so ridiculous. But yeah, most everything in your post is things that pro-lifers aren’t arguing. Most pro-lifers, even those who are anti-contraception, don’t want birth control criminalized. Not all pro-lifers are religious and it’s seriously getting tiring refuting that when you people know very well it’s not purely religious sentiment against abortion.
” You cannot argue antiabortion without bringing in your religious beliefs and forcing them on others under the ruse of kindness. OR you point out some part of an immature stage of anatomy (zygote or fetus) and say that a part is equal to the whole (being of an adolescent or woman). This is a fallacy in your logic. It is illogical and does not make sense. I imagine this lack extends to other topics that you don’t mention.”
It’s not a fallacy to state that an embryo or fetus has a complete set of DNA (in all but the most tragic and rare cases) that classifies it as human. It’s also not a fallacy to state that this DNA is distinct from both parent’s DNA, which means it isn’t a part of the mother’s body, or some piece of the father. It’s a separate organism with its own genetic code, like every other fetus of every other species. It is fallacious, however, to liken a fetus or embryo to a “part”. Fetuses and embryos are “whole” for that stage of development. Just like a adolescent or woman is “whole” at their particular stage of development.
That’s all I want to tackle out of your post, you kind of went of the deep end with your final paragraph there and I have no idea what you are talking about, to be honest.
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” I know, it really is quite amusing. Some people here seem to think an abundance of words makes up for a shortage of facts. ”
Lol, I just had to laugh at the irony of you posting this comment right before my big post. But to be fair to me, my post was factual! Or at least logical.
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And I just have to say, I think it’s funny TMBT pulled a Godwin on pro-lifers, and then went on to imply that there is some Jewish conspiracy to remove mention of Jewish pedophiles from the media.
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“Lol, I just had to laugh at the irony of you posting this comment right before my big post. But to be fair to me, my post was factual! Or at least logical.”
Ha, not the best timing on my part. But, yes yours was factual and logical so it did not fall in the targeted category. I was indicating that some people who lack facts make up for it with length, not that all who make long posts lack facts.
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Interesting how rather than responding to the replies addressed to you here, Sarah, you went off on a tangent, responding to unrelated arguments from a completely different website. This is called avoidance and creating a straw-man and shows poor ability on your part to defend your beliefs or the viewpoint you’re presenting here.
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Sarah a couple of things: First of all, the term “fertilized egg” is incorrect, as the fusion of the egg and sperm nuclei marks the creation of a new one celled organism called a zygote, the beginning of a new human being, and the end of fertilization. Also, at 6 weeks LMP, when most woman discover they are pregnant and at which time most abortions are preformed, the embryo is no longer just “a mass of cells” but a developing human with its own heart beat! And just because it’s too small to see details on the ultrasound doesn’t mean there’s nothing significant there!
<a href=”http://www.visembryo.com/baby/13.html”>Visible Embryo: Week 6, Carnegie stage 13</a>
Second, getting back on topic, it’s often assumed that a woman who is pregnant as a result of rape would automatically want an abortion, however I’m concerned that societal stigma and well-meaning families and doctors are pressuring these women to have abortions and it’s not a decision freely chosen by women. Also, I’m concerned that pro-choice feminists are misleading women into believing that having an abortion will erase the pregnancy and reduce the trauma of the rape, when in fact it can compound it and the fact is the victim will need support and counseling regardless of her decision regarding her pregnancy. Also, regardless of the circumstances surrounding a child’s conception, each child has worth and is deserving of love. How the child began is not what matters as much as a child raised with love, nuturing care, and encouragement so she can make the most of her life.
Finally, let’s call a spade a spade and what we’re talking about here when we discuss “the right to choose” is the right to choose abortion. Now I support a woman’s right to choose to parent or place for adoption (and some like myself also support the individual’s choice to use contraception) and so this makes me “anti-abortion” not “anti-choice” as you’ve been calling us. Also, I am an agnostic theist, a political moderate, and not only support social welfare programs, but also donate my time and effort to local charities as well. However, even if I did not, while it would make me less “pro-life” it would have no bearing on the humanity of the unborn or of my stance of the unborn’s right to be brought into this world and the women’s right to have the community and familial support (So yes, I am in favor of better societal support for pregnant and parenting women).
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and sarah was never heard from again.
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Pwned.
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Sorry I havent replied in the past few days. Internet has been down and I actually wrote out a long response only for my computer to screw up and need to close out of internet explorer and lost a whole 20 min typing session. so, ya I felt a little discouraged after that and not motivated at ALL to rewrite all of that. I actually do have a life and 2 kids outside of arguing and debating on a prolife board with all my spare time as much fun as it is to be judged, condemed and hated on here, only to find no common ground, compromise or the slightest bit of love or kindness I would expect from jesus loving folk.
Anastasia, thank you for your kind words and non jjudgemental attitude. People like you inspire me to believe that not all chirsitans are hype-christians and there actually are christians who truely follow there religion and practice what they preach. When people disagree in a kind respectful manner such as yourself, It makes me WANT to hear you out, consider your opinion and have respect in the other side of the debate. When people are rude, judgy, and throw around insults and have a closed mind, the last thing that does is make me think to myself “wow this person is right” Being a dick doesnt change a persons heart or mind. Being kind DOES. (isnt that your main goal, to change my mind so more babies are saved?)
I wiill try and respond to your comments and questions. I noticed a lot of youhave asked me questions to respond to and Ihavent responded. i am sorry, Its not that I am ignoring you or being rude. Theres just so many its hard to keep up or I may miss a couple. As far as my long responses and some people thinking that I dont make sense or that just because I have a long response doesnt mean I lack substance, I think its quite opposite. I get very passionate about this topic thats why I write so much. And many of them were articles I was just trying to share as I felt it was proving points I was trying to make or answering some of your questions/comments.
One more thing, Please know that your links to articles are read by myself. I love reading them. I feel like I learn more about my ethics and beliefs by educating myself on both sides of an argument. I to have my beliefs challenged. Thers nothing thought provoking about reading an article I believe in, its easy to say “that was interesting and I totally agree” when presented with an article or conversation with someone I disagree wiht, It challenges me and makes me explain myself, my beliefs and makes me more educated and well rounded. So please, throw some at me. I am not closed minded. SOme articles make me shake my head and laugh, others like the philosophical one about abortion that a lady on here posted were really thought provocing.
I wil be back, with respones soon. Thank you for understanding.
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Praxedes, Thank you for the article.
You are very welcome.
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Sarah,
…only to find no common ground, compromise or the slightest bit of love or kindness I would expect from jesus loving folk.
Why do you keep addressing us like this when we’ve told you repeatedly that a few of us here (myself and Jack, for starters) aren’t even religious at all? Do you think it’s respectful to continually sarcastically refer to atheists or agnostics as “jesus loving folk”? I don’t think it is, at all.
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Also, and I’m giving you this advice because it’s just the decent-human-being-thing-to-do: FOR FREAK’S SAKE, STOP USING INTERNET EXPLORER. Download Google Chrome. It’s the most stable browser I’ve used.
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The only one who continues to shove Jesus down our throats is Sarah.
Weird.
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The good news is that Sarah was indeed heard from again. The bad news is that she is still saying nothing of value.
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, you are right, there are some atheists here. I stand corrected. However in my defense a good portion are religous and using religion as an argument. Religoin is not a valid argument bc, as I have said it here before, a persons religous beliefs or lack thereof are not superior or inferior to mine.
I think some people who joied the conversation later on need to go back and read previous comments becasue I have already addressed some of thier issues and arguments.
JDC, please tell me what you mean by saying something of value? You mean, something you agree with? Because to some people, what I say probably does have value, people who agree with me. Who are you to get on your moral high horse and tell me I dont say anything of value?
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No, sarah. We mean anything relevant to the things I, Jack, or JDC have said, since we’re the ones on this thread who’ve been asking for your answer to what we’ve said and you’ve spent all your time fixated on religious people.
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