Stanek (early) weekend question: Are pro-life marches a waste of time?
UPDATE 6p: Well, the plot of this blog post has certainly thickened.
Abolish Human Abortion founder Russell Hunter has posted a YouTube video (see also below) responding to my weekend question, because, he said, “Jill Stanek actually used a Facebook status that I wrote as the conjecture or the inspiration for her survey,” and “Jill Stanek uses this Facebook status as evidence that Abolish Human Abortion thinks all marches are worthless.”
Russell in his video said I misinterpreted his FB post, because he meant to say the meteorite he thought God might launch at Tulsa pro-life marchers was not because of the march itself but because of the prayer at the end.
Let me start by saying I didn’t know Ian John Philoponus, whose FB status I posted, was Russell. I don’t track AHA or Russell that closely. A couple days ago someone sent me the screen shot of the status with a link to the post, and I set it aside to pose as a weekend question because I thought it was worth discussing. I was interested in the thought, not the random guy posting it.
I didn’t originally include the Dallas AHA quotes in my post either. If you read my comment at 10:12a, I added them later when I remembered them as further corroboration that Ian’s FB thought wasn’t random.
I can see why AHA might think I was scrutinizing it, not knowing these things, but I wasn’t.
I’ll add that I don’t think Ian/Russell’s FB post was very clear. I’m sure Russell knew what he meant to say, but I think if he reads his post objectively he will agree my interpretation wasn’t over-reaching. I’ll also add I’m not sure Russell’s (secondhand?) portrayal of events at the Tulsa march were as he stated. From audio proudly posted by an AHA member, I would say it was AHAers, not marchers, who behaved disgracefully. There’s also news video of the march.
Russell finished his YouTube thoughts about me by saying, “But what she’s actually demonstrating is that she has no comprehension just how much God hates pluralism and idolatry.”
I must say that one hurt, because I do know how much God hates pluralism and idolatry, so much so that – never mind Ra or Buddha or other idols that can be seen – I pray against the idols of my heart, like food and that computer game I liked just a little too much and deleted off my iPad January 1. And I pray Psalm 51:10 quite a bit, because I know I fall terribly short on a minute-by-minute basis of Mark 12:30. Just so you know, Russell.
Russell ended his video by calling on his supporters to vote “no” on my poll, not because AHA opposes marches per se, but as “a demonstration to Jill that fidelity to Christ is actually more important than pluralistic marches to save the babies,” adding on Facebook that “[i]f we can get 200 ‘No’ votes we will release the second video, which is much cooler than this one.”
If that were my actual poll question, Russell, I would vote “no,” too.
Russell’s video…
[youtube]http://youtu.be/jGbe9iawvco[/youtube]
9:17a: I spoke last night at a wonderful fundraising event for Wabash Valley Right to Life in Terre Haute, Indiana, and I will be driving home this morning and not able to blog (although look for Friday’s Pro-life blog buzz this afternoon!).
So following is an early weekend question. I’ll post another tomorrow. Also be sure to take the poll at the bottom of this blog.
Do you think pro-life marches, which are now held in hundreds of locations around the U.S. and world, are helpful to the movement or a colossal waste of time? The latter conjecture is based on this Facebook post:
At the Dallas march, Abolish Human Abortion reps accused pro-lifers (video at link) of conducting a “photo op,” adding:
What have you done? What have you done for the unborn but march?…. Marching does not help end abortion…. One sermon a year is not enough. Marching is not enough.
What do you think? How do pro-life marches help the movement, or how are they so unproductive marchers should fear God striking them with meteors?
[HT: Andy Moore]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
At Secular Pro-Life, we’re scattered all over the country (and internationally) so most of our work is web-based. The March for Life is an opportunity for us to actually see one another face to face, which I do find helpful, and it also allows us to reach new people who haven’t heard of us yet. So to the extent that it fosters networking, yes, pro-life marches and rallies are great.
If it’s just a bunch of local people who see each other all the time anyway, and they aren’t getting any exposure for it? Eh…
Prolife work can be tiring. Hearing stories everyday of pregnant women getting assaulted with baseball bats, pro-aborts celebrating death and libeling prolifers, botched abortions and seeing pictures of dead babies can drain your spirit. Sometimes it’s necessary to pour out some of that and get re-energized. You can never hear enough pro-life information. Marches, especially the March for Life, are incredible opportunities to get lukewarm people involved and educated. My cousin worked for a wishy-washy Congressman for years and just went on her first march ever. On the drive down, I was able to really open her eyes with some of the stories I hear every day that don’t make it in the 6 o’clock news. Her getting involved has already had tangible benefits for pro-life groups. People should stop throwing stones, there was one guy Friday with a bullhorn at the March dumping on us for fellowship with friends and family along the March route. If he thought being there was a waste of time why wasn’t he off doing something more important than chastising us? Some people are just negative and enjoy dumping on other people. Life is too precious to be perpetually depressed and angry. I wish they would direct their energy to the apathetic rather than the committed people who show up to marches.
No, they are not a waste of time. ;)
i am a visual person so for me, seeing so many at the respective March for Life’s allows me to take in the fact that I am not alone. It is one thing to intellectually know this but to SEE it, and be able to participate in one, is that remnder that I need to see so I can keep fighting and not get discouraged.
Did the civil rights marches help the civil right movement? I would say yes because it showed visually the determination of the people and raised the conscience of the majority of citizens in the country. Same is true in the case of protecting the unborn. Most people do not want to think about this atrocity going on and the horrible effect it is having on the the entire American culture. To effect change is to demonstrate a collective desire to change and therefore be able to raise the conscieneness of the people. Not to do anything is to suggest that people are not capable of responsible behavior.
After every singly march I go to, I leave encouraged and inspired to take my role as a pro-lifer more seriously.
If someone is in a bitter mood, I imagine it can be hard to see that others are being inspired. Or even, how others can be inspired.
No, they are not a waste of time. Nor should we listen to proaborts who mischaracterize them. Check out this local media story for a more accurate presentation of the Tulsa March for Life. Be sure to watch the video:
http://www.newson6.com/story/20653987/niece-of-martin-luther-king-jr-attends-tulsa-anti-abortion-march
Whether they are a waste of time is a good question, but that’s not really why Ian John Philoponus said that.
The problems in Tulsa were
–the rampant and intentional ecumenism
–the hostility to the Gospel of Jesus Christ
–the worthless prayers prayed
–the rabid defense of the Rosary even to the point of some people standing in front of men preaching the Gospel in order to scream the Rosary over and over, while literally foaming at the mouth
–complete refusal to call abortion what it is – sin.
Considering that Ian appears to be a member of AHA, that facebook post doesn’t surprise me.
The marches are definitely not a waste of time. The media might not cover it, but you know that high ranking abortion proponents are well aware of it. And it causes them anxiety to see the numbers, the youth, the joy, of the marchers. About 400 people gathered at a very small, local march near me. Although it did get coverage in the local paper, that wasn’t what made it so important. It energizes the pro-lifers. Even if all every march ever does is energize the marchers to go back home and continue to fight, that’s doing a lot.
Provided that it does indeed energise people to do more than go to one march per year and then never do anything else until next year or until they go to the ballot box. But an event-centric mindset doesn’t seem to cultivate that sort of constant and consistent activity.
I think the comment about a meteorite hitting the march had more to do with the pluralist prayer leaving room for all deities than it had to do with the march itself.
Rhology, got any pictures or video to back that up? The video I linked didn’t show any discord. Though I have to wonder why the marchers would go to an extreme to be ecumenical and then the Catholics would scream the Rosary at the top of their lungs while “literally foaming at the mouth”. So, got any pics of crazed Catholics for me?
Rhology… funny how none of those items were mentioned in IJP’s status update…
I saw the status when it was posted. What a negative and divisive observation. Of course the march is a positive event for the pro-life movement. The march isn’t for the marchers! It’s making a statement to society, saying, “Look how many we are! Look how young we are! Look how passionate we are!” Just like an army lets out a mighty cry before battle to intimidate the enemy, the pro-choicers shake in their boots every time they see The Largest Civil Protest in the World.
I’m not surprised by his or Rhology’s posts. Especially after watching the video (Thanks John) and seeing the heavy Catholic influence of the march. AHA is anti-Catholic.
They got raw footage of discord at the Tulsa MFL but didn’t include it in the newscast. I don’t blame them, but I’m just letting you know. I was there. :-)
I have audio of the screaming Rosary guys, sure. Here you go.
You said:
–I have to wonder why the marchers would go to an extreme to be ecumenical and then the Catholics would scream the Rosary at the top of their lungs
There were lots of different people there, and lots of room for diversity. But ecumenism necessarily limits itself and excludes those who love the Gospel.
Andrew,
Why would anyone be intimidated by a crowd that gathers to march once per year and largely does nothing else the other 364 days? Why would the forces of darkness quake before a gathering that opposes the Gospel and refuses to call sin sin?
–AHA is anti-Catholic.–
I am happy to report that this is entirely inaccurate.
Abolish Human Abortion is a negative voice that sows division and discord. Ignore them. Their “gospel” is one of Calvinist despair, not compassion and hope for the brokenhearted. They would rather thunder their protestant ideas and criticize and browbeat others who are working to end abortion.
Like Alexander the copper smith, may God repay them according to their works.
FYI, I just added some AHA quotes (and link to video) from the Dallas March.
LOL. That link proves my point, Rhology.
Why would anyone be intimidated by a crowd that gathers to march once per year and largely does nothing else the other 364 days?
I find it odd that you assume you know what every person in that crowd does every day of the year. Give me a break.
Why would the forces of darkness quake before a gathering that opposes the Gospel and refuses to call sin sin?
I seriously doubt your characterization is accurate. I’ve been to the national March for Life several times. There’s no ambiguity about how wrong abortion is. I can’t imagine why people would be there if there was.
Sam, you are spot on. I’ve seen AHA harrass pro-lifers far more than pro-choicers. This is getting old.
Thanks for the audio, Rhology. I hear an obnoxious troll who appears to be trying to disrupt the march and insult the people marching. We get a similar troll at our local 40 Days for Life who shouts about how abortion was caused by Vatican II and women wearing pants. If I was in a group praying the Rosary and some pest started screaming nonsense at me, I’d pray louder, too.
-I find it odd that you assume you know what every person in that crowd does every day of the year.-
I didn’t say anything about EVERY person, did I? I said “largely”. Give me a reason to think “largely” is false, please.
-There’s no ambiguity about how wrong abortion is-
Who is calling it SIN?
And what is the solution for sin?
-I hear an obnoxious troll who appears to be trying to disrupt the march and insult the people marching-
Ah, so you think the preaching of the law and the Gospel = trolling. OK, John. Sad to hear that.
I encourage everyone to listen to the audio provided by Rhology. It reveals that a group of Catholics were praying the Rosary and then someone began to rebuke and insult them for doing so. It would indeed appear that the real issue here is anti-Catholic bigotry. Their complaints of “ecumenism” actually mean that they’re upset that any of those darn Catholics would dare to show their faces and pray their Catholic prayers.
John Lewandowski, no, that is not how it went.
They were marching past the preacher, and then a few men came out of the march and started SCREAMING the Rosary, drowning out the preaching of the law and the Gospel.
– Their complaints of “ecumenism” actually mean that they’re upset that any of those darn Catholics would dare to show their faces and pray their Catholic prayers.–
That is not what we are saying.
–It would indeed appear that the real issue here is anti-Catholic bigotry.–
That is a serious charge. What is your evidence?
Rhology, what are you doing to end abortion? (Other than shouting at pro-lifers of course. That is very helpful.) It might be good to take a glance at Ephesians 4:15-16 some time. Are you speaking the truth in love? Are you building up the Body of Christ?
“so you think the preaching of the law and the Gospel = trolling.”
No, I think that insulting the people of God for praying = trolling. I think that yelling at fellow Christians who are working to end abortion = trolling. I think that dismissing our prayers as “worthless” or “idolatrous” = trolling.
I find it sad that your hatred of Catholics would lead you to sabotage prolife efforts by them.
Anyone that knows the Gospel should recognize the Gospel in the rosary.
Luke 1:28
Luke 1:41-43
James 5:16
Matthew 6:9-13
If someone is trying to shout down someone praying the rosary, they are shouting down someone praying the Gospel.
Folks,
You have to understand the calvinist mindset to understand the people at Abolish Human Abortion. This is how they think.
The only thing that “saves” someone is God’s operation. Nothing we do can touch someone’s heart. No amount of compassion, no amount of love amounts to anything. Tenderness is un-Christlike. Only fire and anger are the attributes of Christ. So, according to the calvinist, what are we supposed to do?
Thunder condemnations and criticisms, essentially, in the name of preaching “the law” boldly and calling out sin. So the louder they yell, the more harsh they are, the more faithfully bold they believe they are being.
Of course it makes people angry to be insulted. So what do they expect to happen?
They assume that their preaching won’t work anyway unless God does a miracle. So they believe that after thundering their version of the truth, God might miraculously use the anger and brimstone to pierce someone’s heart and bring them to their knees in tears of repentance.
I could go on, but in a nutshell, that is how they think. Any attempts to defend your position, or to explain that Catholics choose a different way, is dismissed as compromise and denial. And if you ever make the mistake of getting angry at their comments, they believe it is a sign that they are being faithful.
Again, have nothing to do with these folks. They will only turn an otherwise united pro-life movement into a bickering mess.
-If someone is trying to shout down someone praying the rosary, they are shouting down someone praying the Gospel.-
You got that backwards. Someone was shouting down the preaching of the Gospel by screaming the Rosary.
I personally witnessed the man screaming hail Mary’s at a member of AHA who was simply handing out pamphlets. I tried to get it on film but was a little too far away.
-You have to understand the calvinist mindset to understand the people at Abolish Human Abortion-
The founder of AHA is no Calvinist. Many of our admins are not Calvinists. But we all love the Gospel.
-Any attempts to defend your position, or to explain that Catholics choose a different way-
As a pro-lifer like you should know, some choices are wrong. Why use that kind of language? It’s weird.
-Nothing we do can touch someone’s heart. No amount of compassion, no amount of love amounts to anything.-
This is very inaccurate. You don’t understand Calvinism at all.
–Again, have nothing to do with these folks. They will only turn an otherwise united pro-life movement into a bickering mess.-
Thank God you’re not bickering or creating disunity. You wouldn’t want to be a hypocrite.
Thanks for the audio link Rhology. I stopped listening when the AHA speaker screamed this line: “…if you believe in the lie of Roman Catholicism”. Yeah. AHA isn’t anti-Catholic. *eyeroll*
I’m an Abolitionist by the way and I’m not a Calvinist. For people who talk whine about people misrepresenting what they believe you guys sure misrepresent what AHA believes and does a lot. I think there’s a word for that…
-AHA isn’t anti-Catholic.-
You apparently haven’t yet figured out the difference between anti-Catholic and anti-Roman-CatholicISM. The open letter to which I linked earlier expresses it clearly. I commend it to your reading.
I think the audio link Rhology posted is incredibly illuminating. If anyone wants to know about AHA, they should listen to it.
Rhology,
You love your version of the gospel. The fact that you have Calvinists and non-Calvinists, who cannot agree on what that Gospel is, betrays the disunity among protestants. The protestant versions of the gospel are not the Gospel of Life.
I do indeed understand Calvinism. I was a committed Calvinist and follower of Paul Washer and friends. I have since been led by the Holy Spirit into the glorious light of the Catholic Faith.
It is interesting to me that you come to a blog, provoke fights, and then condemn anyone who responds as a hypocrite. May God have mercy on you and teach you the meekness and humility, even the gentleness that characterized Our Lord Jesus Christ.
-The fact that you have Calvinists and non-Calvinists, who cannot agree on what that Gospel is-
Do you mean within AHA? That’s not the case at all. We agree on what the Gospel is, and the Gospel is not Calvinism.
-I do indeed understand Calvinism-
The earlier comment was entirely wrong, so if that was you, no, you don’t.
-It is interesting to me that you come to a blog, provoke fights, and then condemn anyone who responds as a hypocrite-
Am I provoking? I thought comments were open for reasonable discussions and occasional disagreement. And we identified the hypocrisy quite clearly.
“It’s not wrong because the Pope says it’s wrong.”
Does anyone ever use that argument to explain why abortion is wrong?
“Praying the rosary will not end abortion.”
Right. Prayer accomplishes nothing. I guess we’ll see.
“Doing dead religious works will not end abortion.”
I’d love to know what the heck he’s talking about. Clearly, they came looking for division, and they found it.
-May God have mercy on you and teach you the meekness and humility, even the gentleness that characterized Our Lord Jesus Christ.-
So apparently, open disagreement = lack of gentleness. But this is hypocrisy from you.
Preaching of the law and Gospel = lack of gentleness. But then Jesus lacked gentleness. I’m happy to follow His example; sometimes He was gentle, sometimes He was fierce.
Rhology:
I listened to your link and found a rather peaceful event being taken over by an in-your-face anti-Catholic preacher. That some who were praying the rosary were upset when their prayers were being shouted down by the soap box preacher and were called idolatrous…it is hard to imagine!
Here is the thing with AHA. They are well intentioned in some respects, but they are bullies that do not have any patience with any view but their own. Every movement has fringe elements. They need to open their minds to the positive efforts of others. I know of no prolifer who will not hear them out, but respect is a two way street.
I saw the letter Rhology, and read as much as I cared to. You may think the AHA manufactured anti-Catholic vs anti-Catholicism distinctions are important. I don’t.
I do remember that when Saul was persecuting the Church, Jesus said “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me.”
Pro-life friends, I would strongly recommend ending this thread and ceasing all responses to the people from AHA. Individuals such as these love to fight. It is almost a bloodlust. They will continue to provoke and cause discord. They believe it is their duty. The best option is to ignore them and continue to quietly pray and work to end abortion. Let us examine our hearts as well, and see if any of us have responded in a sinful manner to their provocation. Sacred heart of Jesus, have mercy on us.
Jill,
Wasn’t your son in law Andy Moore with AHA at the Dallas March for Life??? I believe I saw pictures of him with these very same people you are speaking ill of in this post….
Marches are a waste of time when God is denied and forsaken in the name of pragmatic, false unity. But A//A showed up to redeem what we could of these marches for the glory of God.
Brad, Now who’s mis-characterizing who? Where did Jill speak ill of anyone?
But A//A showed up to redeem what we could of these marches for the glory of God.
8-O
I think I’ll take Sam’s advice.
Wow, the back and forth going on in this thread must grieve Christ and give Satan great delight.
Pride is flowing like crazy, and if I recall, a house divided cannot stand.
Wouldn’t it be better to be unified in Christ, who demolished the wall of separation, and to cover over the multitude of sins with love?
How does anyone of us know what sincere prayer may be what God desires to hear?
What small gestures lead us to repentance and paths of healing and sanctification?
I thank God the battle belongs to the Lord and not us!
Brad – yes I was there. I organized the event and a few AHAers from Oklahoma decided to attend.
Echoing Andrew Ensley’s question – where did Jill speak ill of the AHAers?
i’m not Catholic but AHA has struck me as vehemently, offensively anti-Catholic in a number of instances. No thanks. I oppose abortion, not religions.
So let me get this straight. There is totally a difference between being anti-Catholic and anti-Roman Catholicism, but Jill is being anti-AHA by questioning something someone from it says. OK, then
Brad, I don’t believe I spoke ill of anyone or any group. I even linked to AHA’s website as a courtesy. In fact, I gave anti-march sentiment 100% more space in my post than pro-march sentiment.
I usually try to frame my weekend questions as objectively as possible to encourage the free flow of ideas. I genuinely want to know what everyone thinks. Iron sharpens iron. And I think questions like this are good for introspection all the way around.
I do wish, though, we would stick to the topic and not take it to an attack on Catholic theology.
No wonder Secular Pro-Life has Christian supporters– at least at SPL you don’t have to deal with inter-denominational bickering! :-)
The original church was not Catholic. It wasn’t Protestant. It was THE CHURCH. The Roman Catholic church allowed a lot of unbiblical things (for example, selling of indulgences) along the way which is why Protestants broke away. Do Protestants have it all together? No. I don’t claim they do. I think the early church was somewhere between Catholicism and Protestantism.
As for the charge that Protestants can’t agree…um sorry but aren’t there several “sects” (for lack of a better word) of Catholics? Even Roman Catholics don’t agree! I see a lot of pro-abortion Catholics and even reading Monica Miller’s book “Abandoned” she talks about seeing a nun working at an abortion clinic! So whoever is trying to call out Protestants…maybe get your own house in order first.
As to the rosary…when I was Catholic I could never pray it. It seemed entirely unbiblical given Christ’s admonition in Matthew not to utter vain REPETITIONS. How is repeating something over and over talking to God? Isn’t prayer talking to God? If my child repeated something over and over to me every day I wouldn’t be inclined to listen to him. Yet somehow we think God is pleased when we repeat something over and over while clutching beads? I just don’t get that. Where is that supported in Scripture? If I’m wrong, I’ll admit I’m wrong but show me in the Bible where the repetitious prayers are supported.
And I don’t mean to attack Catholics as I love their strong fight for life and I have many Catholic friends and family. I just feel a little Protestant bashing going on and wanted to point out some hypocrisy here.
I do not believe our denomination saves us. God saves us and we cannot come to Him except through His Son (John 14:6) so in the end I want only to focus on the gospel and leave the convicting to the Holy Spirit. It isn’t my place to tell people what denomination people should be but to always point to Jesus. HE is the way and the TRUTH and the LIFE , not any denomination Catholic or Protestant.
This thread is awful. But that’s about what I expect from AHA. They are what pro-choicers always accuse us of, a thinly veiled excuse to shove their beliefs down people’s throats. And they ARE really anti-Catholic, I don’t know how they can deny that with a straight face.
“I’m not anti-Catholic, I just think Catholics are idolatrous and leading the entire world astray! Why would they be offended by that?”
but show me in the Bible where the repetitious prayers are supported.
Matthew 26:36-44
“Vain” is any prayer prayed to a false god. No prayer to the one true God is vain.
Hey Sydney -
I don’t think that anyone was trying to get into a Catholicism/Protestant thing here, or call out Protestants, but rather noting that if Catholics DO pray the rosary at a march for life, their religion should be respected enough to let them do so without interference. I usually stay out of denominational debates because it’s not my business, but even as an agnostic I have quite frankly often been surprised and even offended by comments made by or on behalf of AHA against Catholicism. The tenor seems to be that you are welcome in AHA so long as you give no indication, ever, that you are Catholic.
I remember seeing pictures of the protests in Egypt, in which Christians would hold hands to create a protective circle around their Muslim peers at their prayer times; and I remember hearing of Muslims guarding Coptic churches in turn. What an amazing gesture of respect for differences and a statement of unification on the points they DID have in common. Abortion is a topic that spans religions and certainly denominations, and I find AHA’s behavior exclusive and offensive.
Jerry said:
-That some who were praying the rosary were upset when their prayers were being shouted down by the soap box preacher and were called idolatrous-
You weren’t there, and I was, so I’m happy to correct this misapprehension. The march was occurring, nobody was praying the Rosary or anything. But when Shane started to preach the Gospel, some men came over to drown him out by screaming the Rosary over and over like a mantra. They should be called out for their evil behavior, drowning out the proclamation of the Word of God for any reason.
-They need to open their minds to the positive efforts of others.-
How much have you opened your mind to understand our ideology? My guess is, not a whole lot.
Lrning said:
-You may think the AHA manufactured anti-Catholic vs anti-Catholicism distinctions are important. I don’t.-
Lrning apparently thinks that it’s unimportant to differentiate between person and ideology. Good luck with that.
Does Lrning love Satanism since he (I would assume) loves Satanists?
Alexandra:
Do you also not understand the difference between ideology and person?
JDC said:
– There is totally a difference between being anti-Catholic and anti-Roman Catholicism, but Jill is being anti-AHA by questioning something someone from it says. OK, then-
No, that is not the claim at hand.
Jill Stanek said:
-I do wish, though, we would stick to the topic and not take it to an attack on Catholic theology.-
Sadly, what we often find is that we are doing what we do, and oversensitive Roman Catholics, looking for offense anywhere, find offense in our words, and then they latch on and howl. It’s sort of sickening, really. Then they project upon AHA and gripe about us being “anti-Catholic”, showing not even any understanding of what “anti-Catholic” means.
JackBorsch said:
-They are what pro-choicers always accuse us of, a thinly veiled excuse to shove their beliefs down people’s throats.-
If “speaking disagreement” = shoving beliefs down people’s throats, then why isn’t it true that YOU are shoving your beliefs down OUR throats? Let’s be intellectually fair here.
Of course, that’s not what that means, and that’s not what anyone is doing. Nobody is holding anyone at gunpoint. We’re debating. If you don’t like debate, I humbly suggest you leave the Internet.
-And they ARE really anti-Catholic, I don’t know how they can deny that with a straight face.-
That’s two terms you misused in the same comment.
Peace,
Rhology
If 1 out of 10,000 pro-lifers marching is inspired and motivated by a grand show of pro-life solidarity to do more than merely walk a mile, then pro-life walks are worth it.
AHA’s pro-life principle is solid. Nevertheless, what makes AHA annoying is its behavior exhibits an attitude that it is the gatekeeper of the pro-life label.
Alexandra:
-I find AHA’s behavior exclusive and offensive.-
But of course, when *you* disagree with someone, it’s not exclusive. Oh no. It’s only when *we* disagree that we’re exclusive.
Have you heard of special pleading?
- what makes AHA annoying is its behavior exhibits an attitude that it is the gatekeeper of the pro-life label.-
I see no reason to believe that you understand our ideology either. I invite you to learn, however. Then you can make a real critique of our position.
Sadly, what we often find is that we are doing what we do, and oversensitive Roman Catholics, looking for offense anywhere, find offense in our words, and then they latch on and howl. It’s sort of sickening, really. Then they project upon AHA and gripe about us being “anti-Catholic”, showing not even any understanding of what “anti-Catholic” means.
Sadly, you seem to have selective memory. Shane started everything by saying the following things with absolutely no provocation:
“It’s not wrong because the Pope says it’s wrong.”
“Praying the rosary will not end abortion.”
“Doing dead religious works will not end abortion.”
How can you say these statements are not anti-Catholic, especially considering the context within which they were spoken? The march was not a Catholic event. These unsolicited provocations of a denomination war were completely unwarranted and inappropriate. AHA’s actions communicate that all they seek is to create division within the pro-life movement. That is not ok.
Andrew, you too? You don’t know the difference between anti-Catholic and anti-Roman-Catholicism?
By the way, what did Shane say that was false?
-The march was not a Catholic event. -
Actually, it pretty much was. I know; I was there.
-AHA’s actions communicate that all they seek is to create division within the pro-life movement-
Ah, OK, so when *you* debate, it’s OK, but when *we* debate, it’s divisive. Gotcha.
No, Rhology, there’s a difference between disagreeing and excluding. I disagree with Christianity in general but I happily respect the rights of Christians to express their faith next to me at functions in support of beliefs we share, without any comment or interference from me. Pray next to me or pray the rosary next to me or meditate next to me, whatever. I’m standing here to end abortion; the spiritual beliefs of anyone standing with me are their own business.
- I happily respect the rights of Christians to express their faith next to me at functions in support of beliefs we share, without any comment or interference from me. -
Cool, then we agree. And you join us in disapproving a group of men drowning out our own free speech to a peaceable assembly of people.
Focus, people!
Nancy Keenan got off a train at DC at one of the recent Marches for Life (was it the 2012 or 2011?) and it DEMORALIZED HER SO MUCH she has since stepped down from her position leading Naral. She said that there were so many and that they were so young!
If the Marches don’t inspire us to do more, then they might be a waste of time, but I think they DO inspire us and they DO demoralize the enemy. March on!
“-The march was not a Catholic event. -
Actually, it pretty much was. I know; I was there.”
That’s like saying the march for life is a white event because most of the attendees happen to be white. Would you make that claim as well?
“-AHA’s actions communicate that all they seek is to create division within the pro-life movement-
Ah, OK, so when *you* debate, it’s OK, but when *we* debate, it’s divisive. Gotcha”
The important distinction is context, which I pointed out in my previous comment. If you don’t understand that, then I can’t explain it to you.
No, Rhology, I disagree that Catholics praying the rosary is drowning out anyone else’s free speech.
People don’t choose to be white, and being white has no correlation to the abortion debate.
Yes, context. I agree.
Rhology, my point was not about choosing to be white or Catholic. My point was that you can’t just say, “Most of the attendees were [some arbitrary label/category], so this must be a [some arbitrary label/category] event!”
If you agree with my point about context, then you must agree that Shane’s remarks were inappropriate at best.
-I disagree that Catholics praying the rosary is drowning out anyone else’s free speech. –
Not praying it. SCREAMING it while standing one foot in front of the guy proclaiming the Gospel.
“If “speaking disagreement” = shoving beliefs down people’s throats, then why isn’t it true that YOU are shoving your beliefs down OUR throats? Let’s be intellectually fair here.
Of course, that’s not what that means, and that’s not what anyone is doing. Nobody is holding anyone at gunpoint. We’re debating. If you don’t like debate, I humbly suggest you leave the Internet.”
Alexandra said it better than me, as usual. You can disagree with anything without being exclusive and rude. Mostly I clash with AHA members because I am not religious, which is the worst thing evah apparently, almost as bad as being Roman Catholic! :D It’s not disagreeing that I object to, it’s that they verbally attack other pro-lifers of different faiths and opinions, and it’s pretty blatantly obvious that you only consider Protestants valuable members of your groups.
“It’s not wrong because the Pope says it’s wrong.”
“Praying the rosary will not end abortion.”
“Doing dead religious works will not end abortion.”
These are not passages in any Gospel I’ve ever read.
Andrew,
You may unaware that the crowd was dominated by RCs, there was a Mass just before the March, the gathering area was 20 feet in front of a massive RC church, and that people were holding up large rosary bead thingies and banners of the BVMary. It was Roman Catholic.
-You can disagree with anything without being exclusive and rude.-
I agree. I don’t think we’ve been either.
-which is the worst thing evah apparently, almost as bad as being Roman Catholic!-
Smiley face notwithstanding, that was quite rude and exclusive. You have acted hypocritically.
If I were inclined to act like our recent RC opponents, I’d now spend the next two months commenting on every blogpost you make that you’re anti-evangelical.
I listened to your audio and I do not believe it supports your argument, Rhology. I believe it shows AHA as seeking out confrontation and attempting to divide a pro-life audience along denominational lines.
“rampant and intentional ecumenism”
“It was Roman Catholic.”
Which is it?
There were lots of different people there, and lots of room for diversity. But ecumenism necessarily limits itself and excludes those who love the Gospel.
Rhology, how many people who support abortion or who openly proclaim hate for God did you talk to today? It seems to me you are neglecting the sheep that’s lost (which seems to be your calling from your mission statement) while you are berating the sheep that remained because they aren’t standing in neat and ordered rows.
I’m solidly in the middle. I recognize the fact that our society likes walks and if you can put together a walk then you can get a little attention to your cause, and therefore, if you’re gonna walk, walk for human right for all humans!
But then, I think it’s annoying that we can’t just think and do and communicate without having to organize big walks. The time and money that is spent putting these things together (for whatever cause) can be so much better spent directly. Walks are kinda like rally’s, which get people pumped up, but why do we need to pump people up to do what is good and right?
This is the idealist in me talking. I don’t think God is going to strike anyone with a meteroite for walking for the pre-born, but then I don’t think he’s terribly impressed with it either. I think it matters a lot more what’s in your heart and therefore in your actions the 0ther 364 days of the year.
-how many people who support abortion or who openly proclaim hate for God did you talk to today?-
That’s disappointing. I thought for sure you’d be criticising me for my mean tone of voice.
“Smiley face notwithstanding, that was quite rude and exclusive. You have acted hypocritically.
If I were inclined to act like our recent RC opponents, I’d now spend the next two months commenting on every blogpost you make that you’re anti-evangelical.”
Nah. I’m not anti-evangelical. I haven’t actually mentioned any theology whatsoever in my comments, so your charge of hypocrisy fails. I don’t care you guys are evangelically based, no more than I care about some pro-life organizations being Catholic based. What I care about is the behavior of your members, which is exclusive and rude. And your audio doesn’t back your side of the story there, which isn’t surprising.
I know this is devolving into a protestantism vs. catholicism thread and I am sorry to add to it but I feel I must respond to Lrning.
In Matthew 6:7 Christ says “But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions as the heathen do” for they think that they shall be heard with their much speaking.”
Christ is clearly talking about praying to God. Christ would never assume or encourage or insinuate we would be praying to idols. So when we pray, we are praying to God and yet Christ says to NOT use vain repetitions. So vain is NOT talking about praying to idols but clearly can happen when we pray to God.
The original Greek for vain repetitions is battos logos. It means foolishness, idle prattle, much talk without any content etc…
Vain repetitious prayers are something forbidden by Christ when praying to God. It has nothing to do with prayers to idols but is something Christians wrongly do when praying to God.
Rhology, what’s disappointing? You don’t seem to be accomplishing your mission today. You don’t seem to be helping spread the gospel or abolishing abortion. Even if you are theologically correct, didn’t the Roman and the Samaritan get a lot of praise for doing something positive for their fellow men in trouble? You are so frustrating, you do not inspire me to help spread the gospel but retreat to a monastery away from other people. If we need to drop Roman Catholics and give up rosary prayers to end abortion, how can Poland, Ireland and Malta manage do it?
The only person who made much sense here was Ian John Philoponus.
All of you need to stop and listen.
You are not asking the right questions, or even the most important ones.
We need to do what will stop the murder of babies today or ASAP.
That means changing the law, passing a Personhood Law for babies ASAP.
Does it matter what your particular theology is, HELL NO, SO SHUT UP ABOUT IT!!!
Does it matter if you like someone else, HELL NO!!
Does it matter if you want to work with another group, HELL NO!!
You better get your *SS in gear and get on point!!
God said “You shall not murder,” end of story!!
You and every other christian in this country better spend every bit of their strength focusing on changing the LAW, TODAY!!
Here is the question, if your child were drowning would you accept the help of a “satan-worshipping pagan,” if it meant your child would be saved?
Or try this, in an emergency where your spouse’s life is on the line and you call 911, would you only accept the help of a pro-life, (fill in your denomination/theology here), and would you refuse their help until they agreed completely with you?
Would you get help for the child or spouse that you love or would you let them die while you interrogated and argued with the EMT’s or passerbys refusing their help until they agreed with you exactly?
The point is whatever you would do for your own loved child/spouse you must do for the baby in the womb that God loves.
Does God love your child more than than any other child in the womb?
The point is God expects us to keep HIS Laws and obey right away. We must do everything we can to change the law in this country to protect babies, it is our best method of educating our populace as well.
Love One Another and Obey God with ZEAL,
Andrew R. Beacham
Mr. Beacham, Everything you wrote seems to completely contradict your first sentence. You seem to echo the same sentiment all the regulars here are saying, but draw the opposite conclusion in your first sentence. I’m very confused.
Take this from a stong Christ-following Protestant, the pro-life movement would be DOA Dead On Arrival if not for my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters in Christ. So AHA knock it off. The Roman Catholics were profound staunch leaders in the Civil Right Movement as well and that movement probably would have been even longer in coming to fruition without the priest and nuns marching with Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. being firehosed and beat with bully clubs but the civil rights movement got hi-jacked by the Demoncratic Party and their pro-death agenda so now the so-called civil rights movement bows at the altar of PP and NARAL. They sold their souls for 30 pieces of silver and now run with the Dead Babies R Us crew. God help us all if we don’t stand together prolifers, we have much bigger fish to fry. I will try to ignore AHA posts from this point on.
JackBorsch:
-I’m not anti-evangelical-
And I’m not anti-Catholic.
Cool. It *is* nice to agree on things, that’s for sure.
-What I care about is the behavior of your members, which is exclusive and rude-
OK, well, that’s your opinion. I welcome examples and arguments to substantiate that opinion.
-And your audio doesn’t back your side of the story there, which isn’t surprising-
Unsurprising that a non-Christian would find a street proclamation of God’s law offensive. That doesn’t concern me one bit. It should concern you, though, since that was Jesus’ main activity.
Chris:
-You don’t seem to be helping spread the gospel or abolishing abortion-
I’m doing both, actually. I’m afraid you don’t understand our ideology very well.
-didn’t the Roman and the Samaritan get a lot of praise for doing something positive for their fellow men in trouble?-
Sure. What’s your point?
Shouldn’t you have an argument ready that I’m not doing any good here?
-If we need to drop Roman Catholics and give up rosary prayers to end abortion, how can Poland, Ireland and Malta manage do it?-
1) There’s more to ending abortion than illegalising it.
2) Those three places are relatively small. WHat’s to stop a girl from going out of those borders to abort?
Rho, you are not. AHA is going out of their way to spread division amongst prolifers. It weakens us and strengthens those who support abortion. You are not encouraging Catholics to look at your point of view, you are hardening their hearts to you. My point about the Roman and the Samaritan is they are not Jewish, but they were praised for their action in saving lives. Your AHA guy at the Tulsa Rally was denouncing Christians with theological differences for being there to help save unborn babies. Marches do help end abortion, so do conversations, leafleting, even the good Facebook memes you guys do. I’m sure an older prolifer would laugh at you for spending a lot of time on Facebook posting images. As for those countries, they are more successful than we are, they can’t control their national borders. If they can do it without the AHA version of the Gospel, if countries in South America can do it, others can despite their Roman Catholicism.
Case in point, I’m not Catholic and against abortion, yet I’m spending time debating with you and your slanted point that those who were provoked at the Tulsa rally into action are hostile to Jesus Christ, and the preacher denouncing them for their pro-life activity is living up to the law. A bunch of Catholics paid for this computer I normally spend combating pro-aborts.
– The rosary is bibical (Half of the Hail Mary, and the Our Father are directly quoted from the Bible)
– All repitious prayers are not bad. Jesus Himself in the Agony in the garden repeated the same prayer.
“Unsurprising that a non-Christian would find a street proclamation of God’s law offensive. That doesn’t concern me one bit. It should concern you, though, since that was Jesus’ main activity.”
See, this is how you guys tend to be divisive. I didn’t say Protestant theology is offensive or that Protestants shouldn’t share it. I don’t find a street proclamation of Protestant theology offensive, nor do I find street proclamations of Catholic theology offensive. I find it offensive when one group tries to drown out another, when they are simply praising whatever God they praise. It’s using your faith as a weapon, and it’s exclusive and rude. Your version of events doesn’t seem to line up with what the audio file says.
Maybe the naysayers are a bit envious because they just don’t “get it”. They scoff at our prayers and generally waste a lot of time being annoyed with us. Some spend their lives advocating the death choice for babies. But… WE’RE the “bad guys”?
-I find it offensive when one group tries to drown out another-
Then why aren’t you reprimanding the RCs, whose men were drowning out the preaching of the Gospel?
I find your lack of consistency disturbing.
Sydney, this link contains more biblical context that helps in understanding “vain repetitions”.
http://www.fisheaters.com/vainrepetitions.html
I find the continued bear-baiting a little disturbing. You’ve stirred up pleny, Rho, and emboldened the pro-choicers that lurk here. Mission accomplished?
Meanwhile, the abortion advocates actually truly are divided and the more time you waste stirring up trouble between pro-lifers, the less time you spend exploiting THE WEAKNESS OF THE ENEMY. Abortion advocates, despite all the president’s pandering, are demoralized and frightened. They don’t understand how our ranks have grown so young and grown so quickly. They don’t understand the pro-life movement at all, and continually fight straw-enemies. They are rope-a-doping themselves,
and Rho, you are completely sidetracked. You come here harping over and over, and even though some commenters have agreed with you, you will just not be satisfied. Take your energy and channel it into a more useful task. Namely, if you want to fight, go fight the abortionists. Jezebel and Realitycheck are full of them. Huffpo is crawling with them. Go get ’em.
This is how the Devil wins, folks. We have enough to unite us. Let the other stuff go,
-emboldened the pro-choicers that lurk here. Mission accomplished? –
I’m not particularly concerned with whether pro-aborts are emboldened. Truth matters.
-You come here harping over and over-
Did you miss the way that many people were criticising my position? Why aren’t you criticising them for “harping”?
Oh, I know. It’s because only non-AHA people get to defend their position, get to speak up. Only non-AHA people get to debate. If AHA debates, it’s because we’re haters. Hypocrisy, ninek.
To those who have some doubt that the “March for Life” is big waste or just something for a bunch of kids to have fun with. Consider the following university study just published today.
Caring friends can save the world
http://www.concordia.ca/now/media-relations/news-releases/20130201/caring-friends-can-save-the-world.php
“The study is the first to explore how concern for future generations has its roots in adolescence.”…
“The real-life experience of caring for friends seems to give teens an abstract model of the importance of offering care to future generations,” says Lawford. “Adolescents may learn to apply this empathic concern to the welfare of their community.”
>>>>>>
Perhaps the colossal Washington “March for Life” has been a bigger contributor to why we prolifers are winning over the next generation than has been realized. Even among non-participants. If nothing else the March shows everyone that there are many, many, who really care. And without a doubt this is really good.
The March is not a replacement for person to person, heart to heart, communication…However the March does create a space for that to happen…quietly…during the in between times…on a grand scale.
Hey y’all, please watch this.
Why are we arguing with eachother? We are all out for the same reason and that is to end abortion…there should be no argument over faith, religion, belief, non-belief….Let’s not fight against eachother. We are all here for the same reasons. I AM A CATHOLIC…I grew up around many different faiths etc. we all had ONE same idea…LET’S DO WHAT WE CAN TO SAVE THE UNBORN CHILDREN IN THIS WORLD.
WHY can’t we all do that instead of this dramatic back and forth NON-SENSE!? (Unless, I am TOTALLY missing something here…)
I guess it depends on individual reasoning for marching, and works done BESIDES the march. If we were talking JUST the march – simply a once a year, public display of opposition to abortion (and listening to speeches from people meant to inspire action, but being content on letting THEM continue the fight, while you just sit back and quietly cheer them on) - then I definitely say it’s a waste of time.
However, I do believe it CAN be a good thing and lead to greater good - If attendance is for purpose of striking inspiration, sharing ideas for progress in the movement, etc…..and if we, as individuals, walk away with the strength and desire to do MORE in the fight against abortion, instead of patting ourselves on the back and saying, “Good job standing up against abortion…..let’s take a break and meet up next year for the same thing.”
It has to be looked at as a whole…..as well as each of us, as an individual. I think there are ideas for great purpose…..but if ALL individuals don’t follow suit, and commit to doing MORE outside an annual public display, then we’ll just be in the same place, many years down the road, with the same yearly routine, pretending like we’ve done something grand.
I was at the Dallas March for Life. I agree, we’re largely preaching to the converted, but I thought Todd Bullis’ little protest there was stupid and counterproductive. He’s castigating the Catholic Church for not doing enough to fight abortion. More can always be done and should, but who upheld the belief in the sanctity of life in the early 70s when even the Southern Baptist Convention was pro-abort and evangelicals almost totally silent on the issue? Who has constantly led the pro-life movement for 40 years? Who provides much of its funding? Who provides the heart and soul of the movement in terms of membership? Is it Todd Bullis’ tiny evangelical group? Who I’ve seen now, repeatedly attacking others in the pro-life cause and spreading division.
I say this as someone who had a lot of sympathy for Todd’s protests outside liberal protestant churches. I was even trying to find time to join him.
But then he showed up at the March for Life and told thousands of people how pathetic and insufficient their work in the pro-life cause is. You weren’t there, you didn’t hear the rhetoric, I did. And he said some pretty extreme things. It was the ultimate bonehead “own goal.” Many of the people he was castigating spend all day everyday for the pro-life cause. It was just dumb – and did you really think your worn out “graphic” image signs were going to cause people to gasp? We know what abortion is…..we’re just not sure why you were standing there yelling nonsensically at everyone.
Jill, I love you to death, but you seriously need to reconsider your support for this guy.
I’ll tell you this, so long as contraception use remains rampant, we’ll never be rid of abortion. That includes the barrier methods and other forms of contraception AHA accepts. Because it’s the anti-life mentality that primarily feeds demand for abortion. I don’t see how your group can call itself pro-life if it fails to comprehend the root causes of abortion. But I can see how condemning all contraception would be a very serious problem for your group, though. I would imagine membership would be a big problem, in that case. I know how difficult it is for evangelicals, so well guided by Scripture, to agree on these kinds of things.
I’d say it’s a lot more countercultural and pro-life to have a big family than to stand on a sidewalk screaming platitudes.
Did you miss the way that many people were criticising my position? Why aren’t you criticising them for “harping”? Oh, I know. It’s because only non-AHA people get to defend their position, get to speak up. Only non-AHA people get to debate. If AHA debates, it’s because we’re haters. Hypocrisy, ninek.
Stop playing the unwitting victim. No one is falling for it.
You had to know you would face opposition in what you went to the march for life to do, and you had to know you would face it here with the things you’ve said. Man up and accept the natural consequences of your actions. Everything that’s been said to you is in response to what you’ve said. Nothing was unsolicited or unprovoked.
We didn’t go to your AHA meeting and start shouting the rosary at you and telling you that your protestant religion is a satanic cult. Don’t dish criticism if you can’t take it.
So Lrning, what do YOU consider to be “vain and repetitious” prayer?
Angie: “LET’S DO WHAT WE CAN TO SAVE THE UNBORN CHILDREN IN THIS WORLD.”
Yes!! Isn’t that just the whole message of the “March for Life” in one sentence? Beautiful!
I think every “March for Life” is great simply because it is beautiful. It is better than any cathedral and a living version of the gospel message.
-You had to know you would face opposition in what you went to the march for life to do-
Of course. That doesn’t absolve those who opposed the preaching of the law and Gospel of God.
I expected it b/c I’ve interacted with scads of RCs before. Sadly, they showed me what to expect.
-Man up and accept the natural consequences of your actions.-
LOL please.
-We didn’t go to your AHA meeting and start shouting the rosary at you-
You’re more than welcome. We’ll get you on camera and show the world the difference between you and us.
-telling you that your protestant religion is a satanic cult.-
The Council of Trent beat you to it. 450 years too late. Did you not read the Open Letter I linked?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGbe9iawvco&feature=youtu.be
–we’re just not sure why you were standing there yelling nonsensically at everyone.-
You could ask him. I know he has an answer.
“-We didn’t go to your AHA meeting and start shouting the rosary at you-
You’re more than welcome. We’ll get you on camera and show the world the difference between you and us.”
Interesting, you already did show the difference – with your own recording – and it’s the opposite of what you seem to think it is. You went to what you claim over and over is a Roman Catholic event (with rampant and intentional ecumenism… yeah, ok), and started shouting that Catholic practices would not end abortion (oh sorry, you call that the “Gospel”). And somehow you think that’s different from the scenario I posed above?
I can see there will be no progress made in this conversation, so I respectfully bow out. I have no hard feelings and I pray that you earnestly seek the truth God desires to reveal to all of us, as I intend to keep doing as well.
In the mean time, let us please work together rather than against each other for an end to abortion.
Can I be an A//A member as an atheist?
“Then why aren’t you reprimanding the RCs, whose men were drowning out the preaching of the Gospel?
I find your lack of consistency disturbing.”
If the Catholics had started screaming “Protestant theology will never stop abortion” or started attacking basic tenets of Protestant faith, I would call them out on it. Have before. That’s not what happened in your clip, it was the other way around.
“Can I be an A//A member as an atheist?”
They’ll claim to accept you but randoms from their group will send you messages telling you that you aren’t *really* doing any good to stop abortion, that your contributions are not as important as religiously based arguments and works, and some of them might tell you that you are going to hell.
- started shouting that Catholic practices would not end abortion (oh sorry, you call that the “Gospel”)-
No, I call that the “Law”, actually. Remember how I said “Law” several times also?
-let us please work together rather than against each otherfor an end to abortion.-
Physical, heal thyself. Take a look at the way you engaged here, who provoked what, and examine yourself.
-That’s not what happened in your clip, it was the other way around.-
Did you hear the Rosary-screamers?
–their group will send you messages telling you that you aren’t *really* doing any good to stop abortion-
That is a flat out lie.
-some of them might tell you that you are going to hell.-
If they are indeed an abolitionist, they would ALL warn you that you have broken God’s law and need Jesus’ forgiveness and to bear fruit in keeping with repentance, or Hell will be your destination. Yes, quite so.
Sydney M says:
So Lrning, what do YOU consider to be “vain and repetitious” prayer?
Certainly not any prayer that comes from the heart. Scripture has examples of good repetitious prayer, so repetition itself can’t be what Jesus was commanding against. I focus on the word “vain”. I don’t really think I can judge whether someone else’s prayer is “vain”, so I’ll leave that to God.
Take a look at the way you engaged here, who provoked what, and examine yourself.
Oh believe me, I have. Peace to you, Rhology.
Why would an atheist want to join a group with an ideology that seeks to exalt and submit to Jesus the Messiah as first and primary goal?
DO NOT LET AHA DISTRACT YOU. Do not indulge them. Go about your business. Their only business is to antagonize pro-life people, which inhibits pro-life work. Don’t let them.
“Did you hear the Rosary-screamers?”
I did. People saying the Rosary isn’t attacking Protestant theology. I get that Protestants find exhorting Mary is wrong, but a Catholic saying the Rosary isn’t attacking the Protestant faith. The dude in your clip was preaching against Catholic theology, and the Catholics tried to speak louder because their prayer was being interrupted by someone attacking their faith. It’s pretty obvious from the clip who was causing the issues there.
“That is a flat out lie.”
Nope, not a lie. Several of your followers do that. I don’t know if the leaders do, but your followers leave a bad taste in non-evangelical mouths quite often. I don’t dislike AHA for no reason.
“If they are indeed an abolitionist, they would ALL warn you that you have broken God’s law and need Jesus’ forgiveness and to bear fruit in keeping with repentance, or Hell will be your destination. Yes, quite so.”
Yes, because messaging unbelievers unbidden and repetitively is the best way evah to witness to them. This is why you guys annoy people, and why it’s hard to accept that you guys are actually an anti-abortion group rather than an evangelizing group with some anti-abortion goals.
Praying the Rosary led to mystical experiences for me. After getting out of a relationship with an abusive man, I had a hard time trusting any men and found myself struggling in my relationship with Christ as well. I started praying the Rosary and Mary led me to a stronger relationship with Jesus.
Praying the Rosary was instrumental in leading me to what I now teach to teenagers i.e. Theology of the Body. Through the Rosary I was able to decipher what it was Jesus was calling me to do. I did not choose to teach this topic, the Spirit led me.
I did, however, choose to pray the Rosary (after much heartache and desperation) having been taught it as a child. Once I heard about TOB, I knew that this program was what I was being called, through the Rosary, to teach.
The Rosary is all about Jesus Christ.
Why would an atheist want to join a group with an ideology that seeks to exalt and submit to Jesus the Messiah as first and primary goal?
Okay. So it’s NOT primarily a group about ending abortion. I thought it was. That was the only reason I was interested in joining. Your guys’ name is rather misleading. Since the fight against abortion is only an afterthought to you, don’t you think you should take the “abortion” thing out of your name? You might give someone the wrong idea. Like, that you care more about saving lives than shoving your religion down the throats of others.
Why would an atheist want to join a group with an ideology that seeks to exalt and submit to Jesus the Messiah as first and primary goal?
You guys chose the wrong name for your organization if that is your PRIMARY goal.
I am going to start a movement to get people to move to France, but I am going to call it a Fancy Cheese Appreciation Club. Then when proud Americans show up wanting to eat and discuss cheese I will berate them for not wanting to leave their homes and families, where they are very happy, for a foreign country that happens to take fancy cheese very seriously. Surely if they took cheese seriously enough they would happily pack their bags and go. And when they’re like “wait I thought this was a fancy cheese club, not an expat club” I’m going to be like, “Wrong, the primary goal of the Fancy Cheese Appreciation Club is to get people to move to France.” I predict wild success.
Lrning, I read the link you provided (thank you for that) and I was so intrigued I sent it to my brother-in-law who is a pastor to see what he thought. I had my own thoughts but he sent me this:
“Well…there are certain prayers that Catholics use for the purpose of penance. This is the vain repetition that we as protestants feel uncomfortable. To go to confession and Father John says, your sins are forgiven as long as you pray a Hail Mary 20 times, and an Our Father 5 times is not biblical and speaks to the concerns of Luther and the Reformers…
There is nothing inherently wrong with praying a written prayer, or a text of Scripture for that matter, as long as it is not viewed as a manipulation technique. Just because early church fathers advocated the repetition of prayers, is not necessarily right either and is subject to abuse. We are Sola Scriptura advocates first, and foremost. To the Bible we compare tradition, and not all tradition is wrong either; however, if the tradition is used to trump the Bible, then it is wrong. Having said that, If you pray a rote prayer with genuine faith and conviction it is no longer rote, it is your own faith filled prayer–does this make sense?”
I guess you and I will never see eye to eye on that and thats fine. I’m not offended when Catholics pray the rosary. I go to pro-life functions at Catholic churches and love my pro-life Catholic friends. But I understand where AHA is coming from even if I don’t agree with everything AHA believes (for instance their stance on politics)
Alright. Well I’m out. Carry on!
Wow. The trolls are sure going to have fun with this thread…
Paul told us to pray ceaselessly. But I digress,
At the West Coast walk, there was a moment in the crowd around me where two groups were singing and they had sort of bumped up to each other so that the songs were now both clashing. The singers were politely trying to maneuver themselves apart, rather than out-singing each other. I thought that was pretty nice and civilized. It made me think, wow, it’s too bad we are not all better organized so that we could sing more songs together as a bigger group.
Can we organize the march activities better? It seems like the Washington March is very well organized, and other groups have had meetings and conferences that same week to take advantage of people who have travelled to get there. What about our secular allies? How can we make them feel more welcome? What about the Sikhs and the Hindus? How can we get them out to join us? I know that many Sikhs must be pro-life. I know that some Hindus are pro-abortion, but many must be pro-life. How do we get our allies better aquainted and organized? And, as demonstrated here, how do we help our allies work together?
“Why would an atheist want to join a group with an ideology that seeks to exalt and submit to Jesus the Messiah as first and primary goal?”
Because you guys pretend you are an anti-abortion group first and primarily? Look, most unbelievers will join and work with organizations that want to end abortion, even if they are very religious, but when it stops being about stopping abortion first and foremost and becomes primarily about converting and proclaiming theology most unbelievers would not want to be involved in that.
And I can’t stress this enough. Messaging or otherwise preaching at an ally over and over telling them that they are hell-bound is ANNOYING and will never convert anyone. Ever. It puts some people in an extremely anti-religious mood.
To go to confession and Father John says, your sins are forgiven as long as you pray a Hail Mary 20 times, and an Our Father 5 times is not biblical and speaks to the concerns of Luther and the Reformers…
There is nothing inherently wrong with praying a written prayer, or a text of Scripture for that matter, as long as it is not viewed as a manipulation technique.
Um, that is not what happens in confession. I certainly agree that praying certain prayers to manipulate God in some way is wrong.
Alexandra, great metaphor! Or was that a simile? Don’t tell my old English professor I forgot the difference.
X, you are one of the best examples I have ever encountered online of a secular person who embraces being pro-life. It’s going to be a shame when you experience a religious conversion because the other secular pro-lifers will find you a hard act to follow, haha! A lot of Christians could learn a thing or two from Xalisae’s posts and comments (hint hint). Tell us, how can we engage more secular pro-lifers? How do YOU put up with us? ;>) What brings you to Jill’s blog despite the large number of Christians who frequently comment? In other words, what is Jill doing right that we can learn from, X?
It’s funny, Rhology, but I would think that the first and primary goal of a group called Abolish Human Abortion would be to Abolish Human Abortion. If someone wants to abolish abortion, why should their religion–or lack thereof–matter?
“vain and repetitious prayer?” A few thoughts…
Repeating something is not the same thing as vain repetition. Repeating a meaningless word or sound to a seemly empty universe is vain. It may be relaxing to empty one’s mind like that, but it is marked by futility. Achieving an emptiness is ineffectual as a prayer. The Spirit can read the deep groaning of one’s heart when words cannot be found and that may be another matter. So who is to say if one is really praying by looking at the outward appearance. Spinning a “prayer wheel” without a thought is vain and so is an unfelt bible quotation just a bunch of words. The Word is living.
Psalm 119 the longest chapter in the whole bible at 176 verses. 176 versions of basically the same sweet idea over and over (and over and over). Repetition that moves.
Psalm 136 uses repetition, but the alternate verses move it forward.
There are other examples.
The rosary uses a short repetition of scripture as both an individual prayer and as a meditative device, however, prayed properly one’s mind is lifted to the “mysteries” one contemplates as you spend time with God. Things like the birth, teachings, passion and resurrection of Jesus, decent of the Holy Spirit, etc. are meditated upon. There are 20 of them. They are called “mysteries” because they can never really be entirely understood in this life. Rich ground for our contemplation. Rich in lessons for life. These movements make the prayer continually move forward lifting the mind and spirit to God in profound and surprising ways. Hardly vain.
Truth matters.
And the truth is, abortion kills innocent humans and needs to be stopped.
DO: march, protest, pray, sing, blog, teach, run for office, vote, help, fund, speak out, speak up, solicite, bless, preach, support, laugh, cry, change minds, change hearts
DON”T: cut down prolifers for marching, protesting, praying, singing, blogging, teaching, running for office, voting, helping, funding, speaking, soliciting, blessing, preaching, supporting, laughing, crying, changing minds, changing hearts
I’ve updated my post.
You’re too kind, ninek.
I’m afraid I would be in places like this, all over the internet, and out with signage when I’m able, even if everyone involved in the movement did nothing but cuss me out the entire time. I’m in it because of my experiences, because of what I’ve been through with who I’ve fought for this whole time. Abortion would be wrong regardless of who was for or against it. There is SOOOO MUCH disinformation out there, and if you have personal reasons for *wanting* to believe it, and *wanting* to believe abortion is okay, it’s very easy to just swallow the rationalizations and close your mind to anything anyone else says against it. If you have a friend or loved one who has aborted their child, you don’t want to think for a second that they’ve done something so wrong, so you’re going to just ignore anti-abortionists for whatever reason you can, and “That’s just your religion!!!” is as good as any. That’s why I fight so hard for factual representation of the Pro-Life movement from the secular standpoint. It’s getting harder and harder to just shrug us off and ignore us, and I want to help fight for the truth, and fight for life. And, the company I keep in doing so is not really much of a concern to me.
As to Jack and Jennifer’s points, Scott Klusendorf put it quite eloquently the other day (http://www.facebook.com/scott.klusendorf/posts/10151365316774780):
I think that evangelical groups with a stated purpose to persuade Catholics should be free to make their case.
I think that Catholic groups with a stated purpose to persuade evangelicals should be free to make their case.
I think that pro-life advocates from both groups should be free to share their theological beliefs with each other and argue for them graciously and persuasively. We needn’t pretend we agree on significant doctrines when we don’t and we needn’t pretend our respective positions are equally valid when we each think our own view is true.
But when you pose as a pro-life organization when your primary agenda is to pick theological fights with other pro-lifers, maybe you should be more forthright about your intentions.
That’s a good quote Jill. That’s basically what I think about AHA. They should just be more clear with their stated goals and stop acting like they are open to all if they want to push solely evangelical theology.
Jack,
Their evangelical beliefs are not a secret. AHA is very open about their beliefs on how to abolish abortion. It is through the Gospel. This is laid out clearly on their webpage, http://www.abolishhumanabortion.com, and discussed extensively in their blog. There is no secret conspiracy here.
Yeah it’s clear on their website. It’s not clear when they outreach, like on Facebook (that’s where I ran into them), or in other media. They claim to be open to pro-lifers and accepting of other faiths (or lack there of), but will jump on people who express other theological opinions. They’ll post arguments and anti-Catholic theology a lot, which surprises the Catholics that had no indication that it’s an anti-Catholic organization. And they do claim that abolishing abortion is their foremost goal, when it is pretty clear that evangelizing takes precedence over that in practice. It might be inadvertent, and I don’t think most of the people who support AHA do it just to be rude, but it’s annoying to switch up like that. And it’s really, really annoying to get a ton of messages just because your profile says “agnostic”. Completely unnecessary stuff.
So, Xalisae, you put up with us not because of our behavior but despite it! LOL!
Folks from AHA, I like your graphics and welcome you as part of the fight against abortion. But, please, please, save your fight for the adversary. We can argue theology later. Abortion advocates gloat with every abortion and would be just as pleased if we descended into disunity like they are. Stick together and save the swing of your ax for the enemy’s tree. People who are in thick of the abortion industry aren’t having their souls saved if we’re outside bickering amongst ourselves, and babies aren’t rescued when we get sidetracked. Infighting is not a luxury we can afford while the most pro-abortion president ever in the history of human beings is trying deliver up to his BFF Cecile more victims.
The pro-abortion edifice is full of cracks, people. Swing away!
It is interesting how so many people in the Prolife movement seem intent on screenshotting material from AHAers and spreading it around on the web to divide people.
I’m sorry that you were unaware of the fact that IJP is my pseudonymous account. But that’s kind of surprising. Your son-in-law ANdy Moore who helps you run this blog has known that I use the IJP account for around eight months and y’all have spoken at length about AHA and what to do about them. Your daughter also knows that I am IJP and she has interacted with both of my IJP and T.Russell accounts in the past realizing exactly who she was talking to. You’ve called special meetings with abolitionists like Todd Bullis to discuss AHA and whether you could ever work with them.
But maybe you didn’t know, and Andy had nothing to do with this post. (Though I am guessing that he sent you the screencap. He reads my facebook pages more than I do).
But listen. Please understand that I can agree with you that my original status might be interpreted in the way that you read it, but I don’t think the final line of your post “unproductive marchers should fear God striking them with meteors?” Does it any justice. It completely overlooks my concern with the pluralistic prayer.
I will try to speak more clearly so that the screenshots you get in the future will be less useful in the work to divide people.
I have no problem with you Jill.
Russ
Here is an interesting video from AHA ..watch at 50 min.. Division is part of a strategy of AHA.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVWCon8Ms0 At 54 min ”We are trying to put an end to the pro-life movement.. don’t put this online”…
Russell,
AHA is not the center, or even near the center, of my pro-life universe. I don’t think or talk about AHA nearly as much as you think I do. I have not called “special meetings” with anyone to “discuss AHA and whether [I] could ever work with them.” You frankly appear much more interested in me (and my family) than me in you. Believe it that I didn’t know you were Ian.
Todd Bullis is a good friend of mine and in recent months has indeed been talking up AHA just about every time we converse. But it’s not a topic I pursue. Todd was pushing for me to attend your February 15/16 conference, and I really was leaning toward it, until Toby’s anti-Catholic rant, AHA’s FB slam of pro-life leadership, and Todd’s explanation to me that AHA is pursuing divisiveness as part of its strategy. (You need to correct Todd if he is misrepresenting you on that point.) Then I backed away. I don’t like or want to be associated with that crap. Nor do I have time for it.
In all my years of attending hundreds of pro-life events, I have NEVER observed a pluralistic prayer. Prayers are always led by Catholic or Protestant Christians speaking to Yahweh. This is likely why the last line of your FB post carried no such meaning for me, hence my failure to connect until your YouTube explanation. (And I would still like to see or hear the tape of the prayer.) And I think it’s a great thing to pray with nonbelievers in my midst. Again, you need to be clear when you write. You simply weren’t. I sincerely thought Ian’s gripe was with pro-life marches in general.
AHA had so much potential until it started down this weird, destructive path. The potential is still there, and if I see AHA begin to bear fruit instead of poison I’ll be happy to work with you.
Take care, Russell.
Russell,
For what it’s worth, as someone who is not really involved much with either party and had no idea you were connected with AHA until now, but who is very pro-life, I assumed on first (and second) read-through that that FB post was written by a pro-choice person.
and emboldened the pro-choicers that lurk here.
More like ‘and entertained the pro-choicers that lurk here.’
We’ll get you on camera and show the world the difference between you and us.
Yes, Rho, please do. The Tulsa audio was good, but it would have been funnier with video. And I’d love to hear more of your sulking about the Council of Trent, if you’ve got it.
Thanks for your last comment, Jill. I feel exactly the same way.
JackBorsch,
I have a few responses to your comments.
They’ll post arguments and anti-Catholic theology a lot
This really is a tired horse. AHA has written extensively about this to clarify their position. There are even Catholic bloggers who agree with AHA’s position. Of course, it is personally difficult to hear that someone opposes your core values and beliefs. This is true for anyone. If we spend any time at all on this planet, we will encounter someone who disagrees with us and is vocal about it. Everyone needs a certain degree of thick skin to weather criticisms. However, I don’t think holding a belief means you should not defend your belief and attempt to persuade others. I think we all agree that our beliefs are quite precious and worth talking about and defending. More importantly, I hope that we all value truth enough to test our beliefs and change them if necessary.
And they do claim that abolishing abortion is their foremost goal, when it is pretty clear that evangelizing takes precedence over that in practice. It might be inadvertent, and I don’t think most of the people who support AHA do it just to be rude, but it’s annoying to switch up like that.
I don’t think it is being “switched up”. I think it more a function of people adopting something they haven’t thought about. I could be wrong, but I imagine most people see a flashy poster, look at the page, and hit like. I think that is the extent of their “research” into abolitionism. It becomes nothing more than a rhetorical tool. I think you will agree with me that this is false, but I doubt they ever take the time to really understand the ideology behind abolition, both historically and now.
And it’s really, really annoying to get a ton of messages just because your profile says “agnostic”. Completely unnecessary stuff.
Was this unprovoked and was it by an AHA admin? The page has like 20,000+ followers and 20-ish admins. That is about 2000 people per admin. There is no time for perusing the profiles of each and every user, looking for opportunities to argue.
Good talking to you. I hope you have a nice evening.
As a Catholic pro-lifer who works for a pro-life Catholic apostolate I just have to point out trying to make a distinction between being “anti-Catholic” and “anti-Roman Catholicism” is completely ridiculous and intellectually dishonest. To be a faithful Catholic is to be in communion with the Roman Catholic Church. And the argument is being made here as if it’s somehow less bigoted to say “oh I’m not against you, just your entire faith and belief structure.”
Jill’s weekend question is one worthy of discussion, but I am extremely disturbed by the anti-Catholic bigotry I’ve read in comments on this post.
If the Catholics who are true to their faith are less assualted and maligned, by those who call themselves Catholic and Christian I believe the pro-life movement and the Country would benefit greatly. Obama actually paid, the so-called ‘nuns’-on-a-bus to travel around the country in favor of anti-Catholic and democrat values. I say democrat, because they were not democratic, just democrat. They were posting as Catholics, when they were not, and claiming they represented the Church in order to deceive those who really don’t know much about the faith. Look, if you have problems with Catholicism, you are probably not getting your information from the right place. There are many who would hijack the title of Catholic, but not so many who would earn it. All Catholics are called to be missionaries of LIFE. I suggest you get to know a little bit about the faith. Patrick Madrid has a pretty good show on EWTN and there is another Patrick who has a really great show as well, it’s called, The Fasted Hour on Catholic Radio.
We believe in intercessory prayer, and we believe that we can ask friends to pray for us. We consider the Blessed Virgin Mary our friend. We don’t worship her as a God, but hey, girl’s got connections kids, there’s no denying she’s got the son of God’s favor! What can I say? I ask her for stuff, and He responds!
There are about a thousand or so pro-life ‘groups’ out there. Each one has a different outreach and talent.
I think the challenge we all face is knowing how to apply and interconnect those different gears so we can lock them all together and create the powerhouse monster-truck that’s going to run over all the grid-locked, red-taped abortuary/despair inspired fear and HATE and get us to where we are going as a movement: AND END TO FETICIDE. So of course, we can have a little pro-life drama, there’s nothing wrong with a good soap opera now and then, but in the end game, there’s a difference between entertainment and content oriented media, that’s the fact of the matter.
Are we saving souls here or eating popcorn? Or I can just change the channel, like the rest of the world when some one posts a really really boring youtube video and not-so-relevant trivia questions. We’re not here to look at the ‘leadership,’ we’re here to get inspired. Remember His Passion,lest we forget our own crown of thorns; which is the plight of the pro-life missionary.
Why do you still call her the blessed virgin Mary you know she is no longer a virgin.
The first anti-HHS mandate march or march for religious freedom was held in my city downtown by the federal building. Rainy and beautiful. The second was moved to begin at a Catholic church, with the time of “after mass.” Kinda difficult to embrace solidarity when this is the approach. Stay focused on the purpose.
That said, we Christians always want to shine our light for Christ. That clearly means different things to different folks.
“We believe in intercessory prayer, and we believe that we can ask friends to pray for us. We consider the Blessed Virgin Mary our friend. We don’t worship her as a God, but hey, girl’s got connections kids, there’s no denying she’s got the son of God’s favor! What can I say? I ask her for stuff, and He responds!”
Why wouldn’t you go straight to the Top?
‘We believe in intercessory prayer”
Our Protestant friends also believe in intercessory prayer, otherwise they would never ask us to pray for them during times of trial. What they do not believe in is the Communion of Saints. We Catholics make no attempt to hide our belief that we, as members of the Body of Christ, can communicate with the Saints in Heaven and ask them to pray for us just as we would ask any living person to pray for us.
“Why do you still call her the blessed virgin Mary you know she is no longer a virgin.”
According to our theology she is in fact still a virgin and always will be. God assumed her body and soul into Heaven. While Christ ascended into Heaven body and soul, his mother was taken up into Heaven.
I really don’t see why we should fight over this or that bit of theology. Catholic and Protestant alike believe that salvation comes from the grace of God through the Sacrifice and Resurrection of Christ.
Haha, ok, you guys kinda miseed the point, that’s ok. I can see your ‘place,’ and hopefully, you can see our ‘place’.
It’s ‘O.K.’
As long as you don’t believe in killing babies… we cool! And thanks for pushing down that crown of thorns, making sure it doesn’t slip off my head, you know if you know what I mean.
Even so… I understand many HATE us, BUT even so, here’s a dude who has alot of interesting stuff to say. I understand he will say alot of dry things about what I treasure, BUT he’s still ASWOME because he doesn’t want to endorse feticide, which makes him ‘cool’: yes, I found this on my page, and since I am attracting attention I will REPOST it, in the hopes that you will please watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDVWCon8Ms0
And if you want to be one of those, ‘hipster’ pro-lifers’, you know if that’s your, ‘place’ then check it out: Their t-shirts are pretty haute!
http://ahagear.com/collections/all
You know, if we can separate our politics from our “places,” we can ‘all just get along.’
So, don’t go to the mass, think what you will about Christ’s mammy, talk trash about my Mom if you really want to be ‘that guy’.
My job, as a Catholic, it not to hate the sinner, just the sin. We can still hug it out.
Why, what’s at the top?
“Why, what’s at the top?”
The Triune God – the One who made me, and everything, the One who lived and died for me and everyone, and the One who fills me up and intercedes for me and all who seek Him
With the finite number of words I have in me on this earth, I will use all my prayers to speak to my Creator, Savior, and very Breath.
Jill, I think the original question is worth asking. My answer is emphatically No, marches are not a waste of time. If all we did was march, well then, that would be a different story. But to show support for life, confront the culture on the streets, and publicly pray for an end to abortion, how could that be a waste of time?
I also want to agree with the quote of Klusendorf that you posted at 6:44. I admire your fairness to both Catholics and Protestants as well as your focus on pro life on this, your blog.
The anti-Catholic junkola in this thread has prompted me to question some things.
Personally, I am puzzled as much by the largely one-way stream of theological questions (and erroneous assertions) addressed to Catholics as I am baffled by the lack of Protestant communities involved in pro life work in this country.
Gerard, Bobby, Ninek, Praxedes, and others can handily answer questions on Catholic teaching.
For myself, I wish to ask honest questions of my separated brethren, and I take their lead in being open to asking hard questions.
Why do you think it is that Catholics are so overrepresented in prolife work in the US, as compared with various kinds of Protestants?
Does your denomination or community specifically uphold life at all stages and oppose abortion as sinful? If so, what does your leadership do about it?
When you go to public demonstrations for life and against abortion, is the majority of the crowd Catholic?
In terms of authentic Christian teaching and faithfulness to the gospel, I ask with sincerity and charity, and assuming that any Protestant readers of this really love the Lord:
how can you read John 6 in its entirety and not believe Christ is fully present in the Eucharist?
how can you read John 19 and not believe Jesus gave his apostles the authority to forgive sins?
speaking of apostles, have you noticed that the apostles of Jesus are buried in Catholic churches? what does this indicate to you?
how can you read Jesus’ prayer in John 17 and accept the constant splintering of Protestantism? do you know how many sects and divisions exist today? does this seem like good fruit of the Reformation? if Jesus’ Church were truly re-formed, and He explicitly prayed that His followers be one, does it seem right to you that no such re-forming of one community took place, but rather totally the opposite?
do you get your information on what the Catholic Church teaches from your pastor, from friends, tracts, etc., or from original Catholic sources?
do you know where the word “catholic” originates in describing Christians, meaning who first used the term and when, and what it means?
Mary Ann, City of Angels, et al. ~
I mean you no disrespect. I don’t even truly want to debate this – many Catholics here and elsewhere, understandably in love, are able and willing, to their credit, to point others to Christ when they find something inconsistent with their beliefs, but my question about a Catholic practice may not have been received in the spirit in which it was asked. (Nor answered). I apologize.
As for your questions, Mary Ann … It seems that you must be speaking of a particular Protestant denomination because mine believes in Real Presence and binding/loosing of sins. You can be concerned about the reformation and the splintering of Jesus’ one intended church body, but we need to consider the common practices of the Church in Luther’s day – indulgences, etc. Would you have tolerated the idea that people can literally buy forgiveness and thus intentionally sin? He tried to reform the church who had clearly strayed from God’s word. They didn’t take too kindly to it.
“Does your denomination or community specifically uphold life at all stages and oppose abortion as sinful? If so, what does your leadership do about it?”
Yes, we fund and operate five pregnancy centers in my city alone, and I should find out how many others across the country.
I kinda liked listening to the Gospel and listening to the rosary at the same time. News flash. 18 of the 20 meditations in the rosary come right from the Gospel.
The Agony in the Garden The Scourging at the Pillar The Crowning of Jesus with Thorns Jesus Caries his Cross The Crucifixion of Jesus The Annunciation of the Angel Gabriel to Mary Mary Visits Elizabeth The Nativity The Presentation of the child Jesus in the Temple The Finding of the child Jesus in the Temple The Resurrection of Jesus The Ascension pf Jesus into Heaven The Descent of the Holy Spirit on Mary and the apostles on Pentecost The Baptism of Jesus The Wedding Feast in Cana The Proclamation of the Coming of the Kingdom The Transfiguration of Jesus The Last Supper
The 10th Our Father is better than the 9th which is better than the 8th…..etc…etc.. Can’t get enough of the Lord’s Prayer
Tantunblogo…the protest you are speaking of at the Dallas March was planned and orchestrated by Jill’s son in law, Andy Moore, not Todd Bullis. He took credit for it in a comment above. He allowed Abolitionists to participate….
Brad – yes I was there. I organized the event and a few AHAers from Oklahoma decided to attend.
Echoing Andrew Ensley’s question – where did Jill speak ill of the AHAers?
5 likes
by Andy Moore on Feb 1, 2013 at 11:12 am
I am going to do what I’m supposed to do and try to speak charitably about AHA. Considering their actions and words I don’t doubt the sincerity of their faith in the Gospel. I assume, then, that they simply do not understand how counter-productive their Catholic outreach is. They are not going to get us to stop asking Mary to pray for us, no matter how many times they tell us that it’s “worthless” prayer. I agree with most of what AHA says; that only Jesus can end abortion, and that people need the Gospel. It would be wise for us to focus on what we have in common rather than on our differences.
Also, if we want to have serious interdenominational discussion over theology, all efforts must be made to accurately present the theology of the other denominations. For example, in this thread it was said that in the Catholic Sacrament of Confession, we are forgiven by reciting prayers that the priest tells us to say based on the severity on our sins. That is not correct. We are forgiven by confessing our sins, saying that we are truly sorrowful for our sins because they have offended God, and asking God to forgive us. The prayers that we pray after Confession are intended to keep us on the right path AFTER we are already forgiven. We certainly don’t believe that we somehow “earn” our salvation by praying enough Hail Mary’s. Salvation is God’s gift and no one can earn it.
On human unity (aka catholicism or universalism):
11 Therefore, remember that at one time you, Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by those called the circumcision, which is done in the flesh by human hands,
12 were at that time without Christ, alienated from the community of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have become near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, he who made both one and broke down the dividing wall of enmity, through his flesh,
15 abolishing the law with its commandments and legal claims, that he might create in himself one new person in place of the two, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile both with God, in one body, through the cross, putting that enmity to death by it.
17 He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near,
18 for through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.
19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God,
20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
21 Through him the whole structure is held together and grows into a temple sacred in the Lord;
22 in him you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
(Ephesians 2:11-22)
——
On prolife marches:
11 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,
12 to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ,
13 until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the extent of the full stature of Christ,
14 so that we may no longer be infants, tossed by waves and swept along by every wind of teaching arising from human trickery, from their cunning in the interests of deceitful scheming.
15 Rather, living the truth in love, we should grow in every way into him who is the head, Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, with the proper functioning of each part, brings about the body’s growth and builds itself up in love.
(Ephesians 4:11-16)
—
On the rules for the new universal life (only a partial listing):
25 Therefore, putting away falsehood, speak the truth, each one to his neighbor, for we are members one of another.
26 Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun set on your anger,
27 and do not leave room for the devil.
28 The thief must no longer steal, but rather labor, doing honest work with his [own] hands, so that he may have something to share with one in need.
29 No foul language should come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for needed edification, that it may impart grace to those who hear.
30 And do not grieve the holy Spirit of God, with which you were sealed for the day of redemption.
31 All bitterness, fury, anger, shouting, and reviling must be removed from you, along with all malice.
32 [And] be kind to one another, compassionate, forgiving one another as God has forgiven you in Christ.
(Ephesians 4:25-32)
The AHA, like the prolife marches, does some good awareness raising about the harms of abortion and the need to convert ourselves.
I’ve been to the March in DC. I’ve stood in front of clinics. And I voted “Massive Waste of Time”
Why?
Because until God changes hearts, all the March is is a nice afternoon spent with people of like feeling listening to speeches by politicians.
It should be clear after 40 years that nothing is happening, abortion is still legal, and babies are still dying at horrifying rates in America.
Perhaps the problem is not us marching, it is the fact that our country is filled with Protestant heretics who are displeasing to God with their falsehoods, phony prayers, and disobedience to God, who established His Church upon St. Peter, not St. Martin Nutty Luther.
The Protestant Gospel is nothing more than heresy with the name of Jesus attached. It comes from a obsessed maniac who couldn’t find peace with God and thus invented his own “gospel,” and a French madman who codified this heretical nonsense into his Institutes of the Christian Religion.
When Lutherans sent a group of representatives to approach the Orthodox Church about joining together, it didn’t take the Orthodox long at all to recognize heresy when they got a whiff of it. They sent the Protestants packing.
God does not bless rebellion against His rulership and His legitimate authorities. Protestantism is rebellion against God’s rule through the Church. There is no blessing to be had in a land which adheres to heretical Protestantism. They can use the name of Jesus until they are blue in the face. They are heretics, just like the JW’s and Mormons, who also use the name of Jesus, are wicked cultists, no matter how good they may be.
We need to remember to see with the eyes of God, not the eyes of man.
Jill’s weekend question has me wondering BIG TIME> If these thoughts are correct then a whole different direction for PL work will ensue . before you judge just think about this
when a girl/woman forms her decision to abort, its usually at night. what PL sidewalk counselors face is the end position to abort … a steely resolve. if this is true, perhaps we need to influence such a decision WHEN it is still in its still in the formative stage at night. Like most quasi-criminal behavior, nighttime may ‘cloak’ the weirdness of this decision.
These ideas have all sorts of reprocussions: like attempting to get influence via daytime media like newspapers. Using an infomertial at night may help more. I was thinking it a clever idea for pizza adds to be mailed in the afternoon, just before supper. Can PL distribute colored images of fetal development in fliers, IN THE AFTERNOON (with a link to the infomercial on a website)?
We need to influence young people before they become parents, even before they choose to have sex. It’s great seeing so many young people at the March. Young people will influence more young people to jump on the bandwagon. Some of these young people will make decisions before marriage that lead to pregnancy (I speak from experience!). However, if their view is already cemented as a prolife view, the chances they will abort are slim, even in less than ideal circumstances.
Positively influence preteens and teens. Tell them how they will make a change. Tell them they are an important part of the Prolife Generation and are the folks who will make abortion an atrocity of the past. Being prolife is being a part of the cool crowd and respect for the life of all humans is what matters.
The proaborts want to get their claws into young people and we need to teach youngsters how to fight off these claws.
Young people like X and Jack are doing so much more for the prolife movement than old folks who insist on bringing in arguments and divisions about issues like the Blessed Virgin Mary. Step out of your fog and you may notice that the young people are getting it done.
“Also, if we want to have serious interdenominational discussion over theology, all efforts must be made to accurately present the theology of the other denominations.”
Agreed. Ditto.
“Perhaps the problem is not us marching, it is the fact that our country is filled with Protestant heretics who are displeasing to God with their falsehoods, phony prayers, and disobedience to God, who established His Church upon St. Peter, not St. Martin Nutty Luther.”
Many of us heretics addressed our Catholic friends with respect. It would be nice if you extended us the same courtesy. I am sure He is rejoicing in your Christ-like love that I am feeling.
I am beginning to understand why we “Protestants” become so secluded from the larger movement, and why Catholics then assume we are doing nothing to work for the preborn.
Rest assured I could address all of your concerns with my heretical Christianity, but I don’t feel like being burned at the stake today.
I agree with everything everybody has said so far on this thread. And Long live the March for Life!
I must say I enjoyed the link at the end the most. There’s such beautiful irony in vidoe-taping something you’re calling a “photo-op.”
I am going to reveal my secret wish to my friends here at Jill’s:
I wish that Rhology and Edward Hara could be locked in a room together for a month. With enough food and drink to survive and a bible and nothing else.
Edward, I am catholic and I take offense to the way you are speaking about my Lutheran brothers and sisters in Christ. Quit with the generalities and state the heresy you are whiffing factually and in detail so that it can be constructively hashed out or it would be best to keep your perceptions to yourself.
“God does not bless rebellion against His rulership and His legitimate authorities.”
Edward, Jesus said:
“I have come to set the earth on fire, and how I wish it were already blazing! There is a baptism with which I must be baptized, and how great is my anguish until it is accomplished! Do you think that I have come to establish peace on the earth? No, I tell you, but rather division. From now on a household of five will be divided, three against two and two against three; father will be divided against his son and a son against his father, a mother against her daughter and a daughter against her mother, a mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.” Luke 12:49-53
When the rubber hits the road we all must be vigilante that we are following God and Christ and not man or church.
Truthseeker —
You immediately give yourself away in your last sentence. Jesus has placed ALL TRUTH in Holy Mother Church. When you say that we are to follow Christ and not a church, you show where your mind is in this matter. Quite frankly, that sentence is what I hear from Protestants all the time. When I follow the Church IN ALL THINGS, I follow Christ.
Praxedes — Yeah, that would be a load of FUN, especially since I am an X Fundamentalist and X Calvinist and know what they believe rather intimately. Nothing like knowing your opponent’s arguments to be able to tear them apart as being totally bogus!!!
Edward, you know some pro-Catholic anti-Protestant blog would be a better place to harp on people you see as heretics. Here it’s just a distraction from saving children from abortion. Which is more important than doctrinal disputes, whether you believe that or not.
Truthseeker —
Heresy list? Are you kidding me?
Lack of belief in the Sacraments.
Salvation comes from making a “decision for Jesus”
Denial of the salvific nature of baptism.
Disrespect for the Virgin Mary as Queen of Heaven and earth.
Teaching of “once saved — always saved.”
Denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
The five heretical points of Calvinism.
The “Rapture of the Church”
National Israel to be restored some day after the “Rapture.”
Salvation by “faith alone.”
The existence of the “Invisible Church” made up of all true believers.
Denial of the authority of the Holy Father in matters of morality and doctrine.
I’m probably missing a few, but that’s good for starters.
Jack — doctrinal issues were not the opening salvo for me. Remember? I said that God will not bless a nation that is in rebellion against Him. That is scriptural. That is covenant. Covenant keepers are blessed. Covenant breakers are cursed.
Those who follow Protestantism have shredded the Body of Christ, rebelled against legitimate authority, and yet they piously pray and expect that our Lord will bless us when they are in essence telling Him to go pound sand every time they resist the Church or make nasty comments against Her like you find in the beginning of this thread.
Now, if someone wants to take me on in private……here’s my Email.
christosrey@verizon.net
Have at it! But I will warn you in advance….I was 25 years a Catholic hating bigoted Fundamentalist and Calvinist, so I know all your arguments and am not the typical dumb pew sitter you find in most Catholic parishes.
Jack — the bottom line is that until the Church is put back together under the proper authority that Jesus established when he gave the keys to the kingdom to St. Peter, we can expect nothing in the way of national blessings!
Thank you, truthseeker, for your peaceful words.
Edward, not sure which “Protestants” you speak of, but the only points you got half right are our lack of belief in Mary as a Queen, and in the Pope as the ultimate authority. Also faith alone, which is generally just misunderstood by many, and I can stand by that one quite easily.
“When you say that we are to follow Christ and not a church, you show where your mind is in this matter. Quite frankly, that sentence is what I hear from Protestants all the time.”
Right on! That is exactly where my mind, and heart, is in the matter. Glad to be understood.
“Here it’s just a distraction from saving children from abortion.”
You’re right, Jack. I’m out on this one, for my part in being a distraction. I don’t know how you manage to stick around with us, but I’m glad you do.
LifeJoy — Whenever you wish to discuss these things, I will be glad to speak with you. You have my Email addy.
“Jack — doctrinal issues were not the opening salvo for me. Remember? I said that God will not bless a nation that is in rebellion against Him”
Lol, I guess it was just an accident we became a world power under the vast majority of our religious people being of Protestant denomination. But anyway, I don’t care about doctrine and don’t wish to fight about which of you is right. The fact is, you’re on a blog open to all pro-lifers, and alienating Protestant pro-lifers with this type of bigotry is not helping the cause at all.
I believe Jill is a Protestant of some sort, btw. She can correct me if I’m wrong. Wrong blog to spew this on, I think.
Oh and thank you Lifejoy and Prax. Lifejoy, I put up with you all because I am quite fond of my fellow pro-lifers and their good works for the unborn, religious squabbling aside :)
Yeah, this is just not the place for a Catholic vs. Protestant discussion. That’s why I’ve avoided it for the most part despite really wanting to take the troll-bait.
I’m Catholic, and I was actually pretty surprised a while ago when I found out Jill was not Catholic. I always thought she was even though she didn’t give me a reason to think so. I think the main reason I thought so was that most non-Catholic, Christian, pro-life groups/forums tend to be anti-Catholic, and that obviously is not the atmosphere here.
I love Jill’s posts and the comments on them. Most of my favorite comments come from the protestants and atheists; not because I think they have everything right, but because they give me a different perspective on an issue that touches all people regardless of faith.
There are other forums where inter-denominational/faith debates are appropriate and welcome (and I participate in quite a few). But here, we need to work together against the common enemy: abortion. That is all that matters here.
“You immediately give yourself away in your last sentence.”
Edward, when I perceive men as being in disagreement with the Lord; I’ll place my trust in the Lord.
“Agreed. So maybe you could tell certain people that their anti-Catholic comments are not welcome. Some of us don’t take them lying down either. We tend to respond to personal attacks and attacks upon the Church we love.”
Did you miss the rest of the thread where anti-Catholic sentiment was widely shamed?
I’m sorry, Jack. I must have. It’s a long thread and I didn’t take the time to read every single comment.
Well, people posting anti-Catholic bigotry isn’t tolerated or welcomed here either. Actually, Gerard and Bobby are mods, and both are Catholic. Carla and Kel are from more Protestant denominations, I think. Both denominations are welcome, I believe, and I don’t think the mods tolerate people shaming or condemning either Catholics or Protestants.
And honestly, I’m not religious and I don’t have a dog in this fight. The only thing I care about is ending abortion, and I think both Catholics and Protestants have a place in the movement. I think denominational disputes detract from this goal. There’s a place for that kind of discussion, but I don’t believe it’s here for the most part.
I do have a question for the folks @ AHA? When exactly did you get involved with the pro-life movement?
As a Protestant I have been ashamed that our Catholic brothers and sisters were carrying on this battle for YEARS before we ever got involved.
Thank you Catholics for all of your work on behalf of the least of these! God bless you!!!!
I don’t think AHA have been anti-Catholic bigots – I think that they have been pro-Protestant. I think a healthy and honest exchange of religious views is healthy and beneficial not only for the prolife movement but society as well. Being critical of the actions of the other prolifers is fair game in my opinion and should be welcomed. I wish to further hear AHA’s perspective so that I can understand it. The difficulty of hearing AHA’s message is due to my ignorance of their theology and perspective. If AHA believes it can bring an end to abortion I want to know why and I think that they are morally compelled to tell everyone. If an open exchange of religious views can’t take place then the secular warriors will effectively have reduced your 1st amendment right to a right of private worship. AHA will be seen as bowing to their secular overlords who wish to squelch all religions and create a religious free America. AHA stand-up for yourself.
Jack B does not speak for this Stanek reader.
One Catholic for the right of AHA to counter-protest and to share their religious views on this website.
its true that we all see as God sees and I do try. There are souls here like: Mary, Jack, X, Lrning, Pravides, pharmer, and many more like Tyler, Jill, Janet, John L. ETC, … who indeed are most precious in my site AS A CATHOLIC. I am a much better soul for having met them through His sight
And do you know the ‘trick’ of discernment: self-effacing good humour/joj
Being critical of the actions of the other prolifers is fair game in my opinion and should be welcomed.
I agree, Tyler. I don’t think we need to avoid the conversations, I think we just need to be a bit more careful how we come off, myself very much included. Constructive criticism can definitely be constructive but if it comes off as just wanting to pick a fight (real or perceived), I don’t believe anything constructive can happen.
Of course, we have all probably run into those who think we are picking a fight if we disagree with anything they say. I once pointed out a spelling error that a teacher had made on a spelling list. I pointed this out one-on-one and in a kind way. She didn’t back down (even though no dictionary backed her up) and refused to correct the word claiming she had seen it spelled that way in the past. I personally would welcome the chance to correct a mistake like this but I think she just saw me as a peon assistant who needed to learn to keep my nose out of her teaching. I know I was very much like this when my parents tried to kindly talk to me about the choices I was making in my 20s. They knew nothing and I knew everything!
I see this with my own children. What I might say to one, might be welcomed and understood. If I say the same thing in the same way to another, he may put up a wall and shut down. Another may fight back. Some personalities are hardier; some more sensitive. We all have different histories that effect how we see the world and others.
I see you point Praxedes; however, I don’t see how counselling any person or group to be silent is effective, helpful or charitable. When a person is so sensitive, like your teacher, and tells someone to effectively shut-up I think it is that person who is breaking the rules of common courtesy no matter how politely or diplomatically they say their version of “shut-up.”
Praxedes I am sorry to hear how your teacher treated you. By the way, do you remember the word you were trying to spell?
Tyler, I don’t remember the word but I will always remember how she reacted!
TRUE STORY :::: When in the seminary 40+ years ago, we attended daily Mass in the chapel. The chapel seating was arranged that half the seats faced the other half. When the gospel was being read that day, my normally reclusive friend, Paul let out a whimper of sound, but I could tell. He found the old story of Jesus-walking-on-water HILARIOUSLY FUNNY! I was clueless, so I asked Paul – what gives. He said, ‘Imagine the scene: Jesus climbs into the sinking boat … like there must have been a loud noise of apostles’ jaws-hitting-the-floor!’
I learned a valuable lesson, that day. I think many Christians need to learn – God speaks the truth (sometimes in humor) to the heart.
“Secular overlords” lol.
Tyler you are so transparent it’s not even funny. You call me “anti-Catholic” for disagreeing with you, about anything basically. But AHA, who blatantly spreads anti-Catholic stuff, they aren’t anti-Catholic in your eyes.
Anyway, like I said, if someone’s upfront that they are a religious group, pro-whatever denomination they wish to spread, that’s a different matter than pretending that they are an anti-abortion group when their primary goal is evangelizing.
“Tyler you are so transparent it’s not even funny. You call me “anti-Catholic” for disagreeing with you, about anything basically. But AHA, who blatantly spreads anti-Catholic stuff, they aren’t anti-Catholic in your eyes.”
Hey everyone, remember that time Tyler expressed concern because Alexandra included the term LOL in a comment regarding Catholicism? Just feels like something that needs to be brought up now.
Next year we should all skip the March for Life and head straight for the Dubliner :-)
Jack, it is possible to evangelize and be against abortion at the same time, and I see nothing wrong with that. Americans don’t have to choose between being Protestant and Prolife – they can be both. Religion is allowed to enter the secular/profane world because the entire world is secular/profane by its very nature – this world is not Heaven – it is secular/profane - this world is temporal. Groups like Secular Prolife are nice and useful but they are misleading because it makes it appear that there are two separate worlds – the world of religion and a secular world. This is not true – religious people live in the secular world along with non-religious world. The secular world is for everyone including Methodists and Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals , as well as NONEs .
It is more noble for someone to declare their animosity toward a religion than it is for someone to feign kindness, while simulatenously trying to undermine that person’s beliefs and philosophy. If a person has issues with the Catholic Church let them say them publicly, and perhaps we can resolve them. But I don’t want to silence groups like AHA because they are honest enough to admit to their areas of discontent in a forthright manner. If they did not try to “save” Catholics from what they perceive as a bad or evil religion they would not be living up to their own religious beliefs.
Jack if you don’t like the tactics of AHA uses then stick to denouncing the tactics you dislike and dp not disparage the group.
Hey JDC I am free to dislike anything I choose just as you are.
By the way JDC do you have anything productive to say? Most of your comments make you appear to be the website’s peanut gallery; a heckler with not much to add.
“Groups like Secular Prolife are nice and useful but they are misleading because it makes it appear that there are two separate worlds – the world of religion and a secular world. This is not true – religious people live in the secular world along with non-religious world. The secular world is for everyone including Methodists and Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals , as well as NONEs.”
Secular Pro-life is NOT about excluding religious people. It’s simply an organization that is not religiously based that is anti-abortion. Plenty of Christians support Secular Pro-life in their goals, for the same reason that non-religious people support less proselytizing religious organizations (and even some outwardly proselytizing organizations, as long as their pro-life work is effective most non-religious pro-lifers have no issues supporting such organizations).
“It is more noble for someone to declare their animosity toward a religion than it is for someone to feign kindness, while simulatenously trying to undermine that person’s beliefs and philosophy. If a person has issues with the Catholic Church let them say them publicly, and perhaps we can resolve them. But I don’t want to silence groups like AHA because they are honest enough to admit to their areas of discontent in a forthright manner. If they did not try to “save” Catholics from what they perceive as a bad or evil religion they would not be living up to their own religious beliefs. ”
I’m sorry, I take none of this seriously coming from you. It seems as though you are willing to extend this type of understanding to solely Christian groups, not the non-religious or non-Christian based groups. I can’t take anything you say about honest dissent seriously.
Jack, what you are trying to say is that Secular Prolife is tyring to be ecumenical. I understand that. Secular Prolife was founded by a Methodist!
Jack, unfortunately, I suspected that you would not take my bit about honest dissent seriously. It is too bad, perhaps one day you will, and perhaps one day you will practice it rather than wagging your finger at everyone you disagree with and shushing them to be quiet. It is just like you Jack to discount my perspective and way of looking at things. Please forward me the manual: “How to interact with the world as Jack B does – or shutup forEVAR!”
“Jack, unfortunately, I suspected that you would not take my bit about honest dissent seriously. It is too bad, perhaps one day you will, and perhaps one day you will practice it rather than wagging your finger at everyone you disagree with and shushing them to be quiet. It is just like you Jack to discount my perspective and way of looking at things. Please forward me the manual: “How to interact with the world as Jack B does – or shutup forEVAR!””
Lol. That’s a wonderful bit of history rewriting you got going on there buddy. But whatever. If we continue this way we’ll end up with a hundred comments deleted again. Don’t want to go down this road again.
I forgot the SNAP! SNAP!
Jack, if the thread is deleted you will be the only victim because you are the only person who counts in this world.
“Hey JDC I am free to dislike anything I choose just as you are.”
Noted.
“By the way JDC do you have anything productive to say?”
No, I just like talking for the sake of talking. :)
“Most of your comments make you appear to be the website’s peanut gallery; a heckler with not much to add.”
Fair enough, I have noticed my submissions have gotten lazier over the last few months. I’ve definitely been typing fewer words per comment lately. Whatever, if I’m the peanut gallery, I’m the peanut gallery, I’ll wear the title with pride. :)
Yes, that sounds exactly like me. I’m really selfish and I only care about myself. No one else. You figured me out. Watch as I leave this blog in shame.
I can’t watch – sorry!
wow, this AHA business is very confusing, but as a gay pro-lifer I no longer feel like im part of the most hated group within the prolife movement. The Christians, it would seem, are tearing themselves apart. If it wasnt for the damage this was doing to the pro-life movement i’d find the whole thing hilarious :-)
The Christians, it would seem, are tearing themselves apart.
On the contrary, ed, Christians are just starting to come together on the issue of abortion and a a few growing pains are to be expected. As fast as the movement is growing, I would expect more divisions between Christian groups but am happy to find that this is not the case. Don’t focus on perceived damages; focus on our huge successes. Positive thinking goes a long way. The four Christians churches in my area recently held a prolife banquet together. It was wonderful and successful!
Prolifers, Christian and non-religious alike, will succeed in making abortion a thing of the past. It’s great that you have made the choice to see the humanity in preborn babies.
AHA, if you are going to quote me please quote the entire passage. Thanks. Next time I would appreciate a little heads up too….. Now go and reclaim your 1st amendment right and abolish human abortion.
Certainly marches for life, both small/local and huge gatherings are beneficial. God sees us and we see each other, and if we can’t see the rewards, we know by faith that our prayerful offerings are fruitful by the promises of God. Marches alone are not the solution,of course. (Have pro-lifers, esp. Catholics, ever proclaimed that marches alone would end abortion? I doubt it.) I am concerned by the distraction of the in-fighting evidenced here. Who profits? Surely not the children whose lives we hope to save, and not the life advocates, either. The devil and his plan for man’s destruction, including the abortion industry, profit when people of faith attack one another.
It is dishonest to declare “innocent debate/discussion” while purposefully disrespecting the faith and faith practices of another. Respectful debates and discussions would also respect time, place, topic..imo
When a pro-lifer spends time on the front-lines alone or in small groups, he/she is bound to be told be the opposition endlessly that his efforts are useless and no one else cares, etc. To be in a pro-life CROWD one in a while is a boost, a consolation, an inspiration. (The youth rally and Mass in DC is even more inspiring and consoling!!) Additionally, even if those who witness pro-life marches are relatively few, we know that even one person rethinking their pro-choice stance, or one child saved, has been worth all our efforts.
The road has been long, many soldiers are weary..We are called to have patience, to endure with love, to carry on until abortion becomes unthinkable. I am glad that our next 40 Days For Life campaign (and Lent) are around the corner. And grateful that our prayer, fasting, and opportunity to grow closer to the Lord and one another was preceded by such an awesome turnout at the March for Life!!
If you were falsely charged for murder, and facing the death penalty for such a crime, which kind of lawyer do you want? Do you want a lawyer who just silently marches up and down the aisle holding a sign claiming or innocence, who only occasionally raises an objection, only to back off when confrotned?
Or do you want a lawyer that will FIGHT on your behalf, that will raise a ruckus. That will get in the faces of false witnesses and expose their lies, that will bring to light the fallacies of the junk science that prosecutors throw around as “evidence?” That will PLEAD YOUR CAUSE?!!!
PRO-LIFE MARCHES ARE NOT ENOUGH!
Tyler said:
–AHA, if you are going to quote me please quote the entire passage. Thanks.–
I didn’t really know how, since you don’t have a linked profile. You’re effectively anonymous.
And I did paste two entire comments, and linked to them, so anyone who wants to see the larger context can just click and read.
No offense was intended.
I have been sharing a H A meems for quite some time, without realizing how incredibly anti-catholic they are. This has been quite disappointing for me. And by the way, please know thata Personhood Amendment is not a good idea for every state. Wisconsin is one of the few states that have a law on the books currently that would make abortion illegal the moment Roe v Wade is overturned which is the only thing that will make abortion illegal. A Personhood Amendment would undermine that status in Wisconsin.
AHA is not anti-Catholic.
Eh. As long as the meme is Pro-Life, I don’t really care from whence it came. I’ll share it. As I stated before, I don’t really care how other Pro-Lifers feel about me, because it’s irrelevant to saving children. I think the entire movement has such an attitude, though. We might not get along well on the whole, but we have a common goal, and THAT is what’s important.
Rhology, no worries – I wasn’t offended. It just reminded me, once again, how public these threads are. I guess we are just talking internet etiquette here.
By the way Rhology – the back and forth name-calling between Catholics and Protestants didn’t start with the Council of Trent – Luther, in his correspondance, with the Holy See, started the name-calling, which ultimately led to his ex-communication. I am sure you have read his writings and know what I am talking about. (I have read three of Luther’s writings… the man was very insightful but also very bitter, fearful and funny. Although I disagree with his views, his bit on “monkery” was a howler. Luther’s wit reminded me of Christopher Hitchens’ biting wit. After reading some of Luther’s writings it is easy to see why he was so influential.) The Church has formulated a new relationship with its Protestant brothers and sisters. The Church now sees them as separated brethen. I would like to know what you think of the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification signed by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church in 1999.
Jack B – I have been corrected – it is supposed to be three snaps!
“It is dishonest to declare “innocent debate/discussion” while purposefully disrespecting the faith and faith practices of another. Respectful debates and discussions would also respect time, place, topic..imo”
My thoughts exactly, Joanne.
Yes, I don’t think I ever said that Trent started it. The RCC did start it by moving its dogma away from the Gospel, but my point has always been that we’re not anti-Catholic unless Trent (and thus RCC) is anti-evangelical. Far better to talk in terms of the ideology. Anti-Roman-CatholicISM and anti-evangelicalISM, etc.
Rhology I am sure you have in mind specific dogmas of the Church which you find offensive and believe to be a distortion of the Gospel. If you like we can talk about them one at time. Which one would you like to discuss first?
Not sure if my comment went through.
Here are the dogmas: http://hereiblog.com/trent-let-me-be-anathema/
I don’t want to talk about it here, though since you seem to a fair chap, I’d be happy to discuss it elsewhere. I can start a thread on my blog if you’d like. No moderation.
Thanks for the listings of the dogmas Rhology. (Although these are the anathemas decreed by the Council of Trent which means they came after Luther and his theological innovations. Faith alone did not exist until Luther formulated it. It appears that Luther changed the Gospel and not the Church.)
Perhaps we can continue this discussion at the National Catholic Register at either of the following two threads:
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-complete-trust-in-the-lord-changes-everything/; or
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/pope-tweets-support-for-march-for-life/
Please pick one and then let me know.
“I don’t think AHA have been anti-Catholic bigots – I think that they have been pro-Protestant.”
How about their comments that the Catholic Church is of satanic origin? Or that they do not consider us Catholics as Christians?
If that is not anti-Catholic, then I don’t know what is.