Alternative “Mama’s Day” ecards feature gay, transgender, incarcerated parents
This is the third year I’ve worked with them on their annual Mama’s Day campaign. It’s a campaign that seeks to shift the narrative on motherhood, and specifically bring love and light to the mamas who are more often demonized by our political climate and our media than celebrated. These means mamas of color, immigrant mamas, queer mamas, young mamas, incarcerated mamas and more.
This is the second year we’ve tried to do this by creating an ecard tool, with fabulous art by activist artists, that people can use to send cards to the caregivers in their lives, but also to create strong messages to share anywhere online.
~ Miriam Zoila Pérez describing her work with the radical cultural transformation advocacy group, Forward Together, which produces the alternative Mama’s Day ecard tools, Radical Doula, May 10
[Photo of lesbian mothers ecard (click to enlarge) via Mama’s Day]
New York Daily News adds more details.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I don’t know if it’s the style or the message, but they give me creeps… They look very much like Soviet propaganda posters, and having grown up in that environment, leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
This card is nonsensical. “It is our birthright” to use technology and a sperm donor to produce a child that we can raise as the product of our lesbian union?
Leave mothers day as is… mothers day!!
It is the claws on the belly that creep me out.
Can’t Mother’s Day just be Mother’s Day without the agenda?
I think it’s actually a great idea for incarcerated moms. Many mothers are serving time, trying to put their lives back together and find a different path for when they are released. Family ties are essential to rehabilitation of inmates. We need to minister to and care for those who are incarcerated. As for the gay and transgender folks…it’s not a sinful lifestyle we should be celebrating.
Actually, in the sense that a birthright is an inheritance, this is true. As sad as it is, this is what we and our children will be left with, the inheritance from parents and a country that has refused to acknowledge God as Creator.
These cards basically validate unnatural and disordered social agendas.
Support the mother and child, but not the detrimental and destructive social agendas that undermine natural law and the traditional and necessary institutions of marriage and family.
This same agenda is being pushed on our kids in schools across the nation via “comprehensive” sex education. I recently attended the Oregon Adolescent Sexuality Conference, where promoting and normalizing sexual perversion was the order of the day.
I’ll be writing about it for some time to come at http://www.stopp.org. Read what I have already written here: http://www.stopp.org/article.php?id=11952 and here: http://www.stopp.org/article.php?id=11951
“It’s a campaign that seeks to shift the narrative on motherhood”
I really doubt children are best served by “shifting” the narrative on motherhood.
So because you don’t agree with how these mothers are, you think that people should pretend they don’t exist? You think kids with lesbian or incarcerated mothers should, what, not get to celebrate Mother’s Day or something? Do you think that children with “nontraditional families” don’t love their parents and might want to give them a card that resembles their family?
As an aside, if you found out that a parent you knew was like gay or bisexual, previously you had thought they were a good parent when you didn’t know their sexuality, would you suddenly like withdraw your support for his or her family because of his or her orientation?
Debra,
I agree. Incarcerated mothers do indeed need a card. (btw did you know that a high percentage of incarcerated mothers are post abortive? There are prison ministries that serve them.)
Jack,
They exist. That is not the issue.
The agenda is for all of us to accept and celebrate homosexuality. By forcing it down our throats. By trying to make it appear normal and “just like any other family.”
I do not withdraw support for families. Like so many of us have said…….we have homosexuals in our families.
Once we all agree that it is the CHILD who’s right to be born in is not legally protected..and should be, then we will have the luxury of celebrating what ever we want. I dislike the “our birthright” because it supposes women of all lifestyles have the right to a child, but not the child a right to his life.
“The agenda is for all of us to accept and celebrate homosexuality. By forcing it down our throats. By trying to make it appear normal and “just like any other family.””
Who’s forcing it down your throats though? Who’s forcing you to celebrate homosexuality? Does the gay community have the same right to free speech as conservative Christians? Looks to me like they made a website and do activist work, just like many of you. Would you all prefer that the not be allowed to advance their viewpoint? And like I said, their kids have the same right as any other kid to be proud of their parents and celebrate them.
“I do not withdraw support for families. Like so many of us have said…….we have homosexuals in our families.”
Well I know you don’t. Some others, not so sure. It’s not a lie that many LGBT people get ostracized from their families.
“I dislike the “our birthright” because it supposes women of all lifestyles have the right to a child, but not the child a right to his life.”
That I do agree with.
Hey Jack,
I have been told over and over that gay “marriage’ is about love!! And who am I to stand in the way of love? Their gay “marriage” won’t affect anyone else.
Then how come family owned bakeries are being sued for REFUSING to make a wedding cake for lesbians? How come reception halls are being sued for REFUSING to hold receptions for gay couples?
I mean it is all about love and their “marriages” don’t affect anyone else.
Of course they have free speech. Loud and proud.
They have no right to foist their lifestyle on children K-12 in the public schools. Heather has 2 Mommies…….etc. Making it appear normal.
The anti bullying campaigns. The Silent Solidarity day for homosexuals. The “gay hallway” at a high school near me.
Good grief. I don’t “celebrate” their unions. I don’t accept their lifestyle as normal.
I would like them all to celebrate my heterosexuality. RIGHT NOW!!
Hear the gay agenda for yourself. From a lesbian.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/04/29/lesbian-activists-surprisingly-candid-speech-gay-marriage-fight-is-a-lie-to-destroy-marriage/
Jack, would you help me out. I just don’t see how homosexual acts (lesbian or gay) are loving. When I think of loving relationships – a homosexual couple does not come to my mind. It seems to go against everything I intuitively know to be loving. It really takes me a lot of work to get my mind around even the possibility of homosexual couples being loving and then I still don’t feel comfortable. My whole body seems to scream that this behaviour is wrong, and is not good for the people involved. If it is a phobia, it appears to me like a just phobia – like having a fear of falling when walking a tightrope with no net. If most human beings have been wired to feel this way and, therefore, will have to deny their own intuitions and feelings, then the acceptance of homosexuality can’t be mentally healthy for these people, can it?
On the surface, many of the requests by homosexuals seem legitimate and fair, but public affirmation of the lifestyle simply seems wrong to me. I can’t justify this and I realize I must sound like a fool to you because my explanation does not really appeal to reason or logic. Help me out.
Would you support a gay hallway in a high school if it meant that one less gay teen might commit suicide?
Btw Carla as the default orientation, everybody is forced to acknowledge and accept heterosexuality all the time, save for the handful of hallways and neighborhoods that have been claimed by people who don’t want to or can’t fit in. I assure you that most smart queers will be giving the bumblefunk Midwest a wide berth.
I was being snarky. CELEBRATE MY HETEROSEXUALITY!! :)
So if there is no gay hallway it might make a gay student suicidal?
A suicidal student needs help. Gay or straight. You call 911.
“Then how come family owned bakeries are being sued for REFUSING to make a wedding cake for lesbians? How come reception halls are being sued for REFUSING to hold receptions for gay couples?”
I don’t agree with businesses being forced to provide services to activities they don’t agree with, even if I think it’s stupid. The difference between me and most anti-gay peeps, however, is I’d support an atheist business refusing services to a Christian wedding. Most of the anti-gays think that’s just awful and discriminatory lol.
“They have no right to foist their lifestyle on children K-12 in the public schools. Heather has 2 Mommies…….etc. Making it appear normal.
The anti bullying campaigns. The Silent Solidarity day for homosexuals. The “gay hallway” at a high school near me. ”
Do you not realize that gay boys have a suicide rate four times the rate of straight boys? Have you seen why people are trying to do this, trying to get people to accept that even if you don’t agree with it, people are going to be living this way and bullying or ostracizing them is wrong. These kids are literally dying, they are killing themselves because they feel like damaged freaks. I care far more about kids who are killing themselves than about parents not wanting their children to learn that some families have two mommies. I mean, priorities people. Kids are going to learn that other lifestyles exist. Why is it so difficult for you people who disagree with it to say “well, it’s true that other families might have two moms or two dads, but the Bible says that’s a sin and that’s what we believe, but we shouldn’t be mean to those who live like that”. How is that so hard?
Btw the elementary and middle school near me also have the Bible in the library, available for students to study. I don’t think that’s wrong, no more than I think having gay and lesbian literature available is wrong. Whether you agree with the “lifestyle” or not, no one should be treated poorly because of it and no one should be expected to pretend not to exist.
“Jack, would you help me out. I just don’t see how homosexual acts (lesbian or gay) are loving. When I think of loving relationships – a homosexual couple does not come to my mind. It seems to go against everything I intuitively know to be loving. It really takes me a lot of work to get my mind around even the possibility of homosexual couples being loving and then I still don’t feel comfortable. My whole body seems to scream that this behaviour is wrong, and is not good for the people involved. If it is a phobia, it appears to me like a just phobia – like having a fear of falling when walking a tightrope with no net. If most human beings have been wired to feel this way and, therefore, will have to deny their own intuitions and feelings, then the acceptance of homosexuality can’t be mentally healthy for these people, can it? ”
I don’t know Tyler, it doesn’t matter what I say, you are still going to have that reaction. You’re straight, and for some reason you can’t understand why two men would love each other the way you and your wife love each other, and I can’t talk you into understanding or accepting that. All I can do is tell you that your personal opinions on the matter are just that, personal, because it’s not your life or your choice to engage in such activities.
“On the surface, many of the requests by homosexuals seem legitimate and fair, but public affirmation of the lifestyle simply seems wrong to me. I can’t justify this and I realize I must sound like a fool to you because my explanation does not really appeal to reason or logic. Help me out.”
Well then don’t publicly affirm it yourself. No one is making you. Just live your life. How is it so difficult?
Hallway? Nonsense.
You can’t support abortion and “assisted suicide” out of one side of your mouth and then try to tell teens that suicide is bad. Your hypocrisy is part of their confusion, their inability to trust authority and find a moral anchor. You tell them snuffing certain people is already ok and expect them to respect life. Nobody should want to commit suicide, at any age or health situation.
A wide berth for the Midwest BV?
Tell that to MN which is all set to affirm gay “marriage.”
So Jack…….if gay folks attempt suicide it is the fault of everyone else? Parents, teachers, kids at school, society at large? Does that premise hold true for straight folks as well?
Who can I blame my suicide attempt on?
This is what I learned in high school health.
Suicide-A permanent solution to a temporary problem.
You blame it on the big mean lying abortion clinic staff.
I’m surprised You Know Who hasn’t shown up yet. Isn’t she usually all over this kind of stuff?
BV
I do??
And AGAIN I am being snarky. Sheesh Megs. :)
Jack,
From Forward Together’s Mission statement:
“Forward Together is a multi-racial organization that works with community leaders and organizations to transform culture and policy to catalyze social change.”
If these folks were simply about we-are-who-we-are-and-leave-us-alone, then the “No-one-is-making-you/just-live-your-life” argument might carry more weight.
But that’s not what we’re dealing with here.
This is a group that is actively seeking to “transform culture”, which means that they WILL be “making us” by any means possible. Based on the campaigns they have posted on their website, they are in full outreach mode on many levels. ”Relentless” is the word that comes to mind.
Speaking for myself, if I choose to defend traditional marriage against those who seek to redefine it, that does not mean I’m in denial that those alternative relationships exist. I used to work in the entertainment industry, so I know firsthand of their existence. :0)
These folks are angry that their disordered attachments are not validated, so it’s their mission to turn it upside down on its head. Gender? Just a state of mind. Traditional families? From their website: the “outdated notion that a family consists of a mom at home and a dad at work.”
See how it works? THEY dictate to us that it’s an outdated notion. We take a stand, and then we’re accused of all sorts of intolerance and bigotry.
Messed up.
Of course the traditional family has its anomalies and dysfunctions, but that does not mean it has to be trashed in the manner that these self-described radicals seek.
And BTW, Jack, I’m fully aware of the difficulties you’ve experienced in your life, so I’m not invalidating that. It’s sad beyond words and I get where you come from on this.
When the Bible is deemed hate speech and pastors are arrested for speaking out against homosexuality will you defend us? Them?
ME? As a Christian?
“So Jack…….if gay folks attempt suicide it is the fault of everyone else? Parents, teachers, kids at school, society at large? Does that premise hold true for straight folks as well?
Who can I blame my suicide attempt on?
This is what I learned in high school health.
Suicide-A permanent solution to a temporary problem.”
There are many reasons for suicide, and yes, social issues can contribute, especially if someone already has issues with self-worth and depression, or other mental problems. The programs targeting LGBT youth are trying to reach a population that has a much higher rate of suicide as compared to straight teens. Obviously suicide isn’t the answer to their troubles, which is literally the point of the campaigns.
But whatever, let’s ignore it, pretend that they aren’t at much higher risk, and that the way they are treated has nothing to do with it at all. I feel the same way about teens with weight problems, who are also at a higher risk of suicide and self-harm.
People do better in environments that they are cared for and supported, gay or straight.
A desperate person that needs immediate attention tries to end their own life.
Bullies may contribute to a person’s feelings of low self worth or depression but a person that hangs themselves(gay or straight)could have gotten help. I believe that.
But whatever, let’s ignore it, pretend that they aren’t at much higher risk, and that the way they are treated has nothing to do with it at all. I feel the same way about teens with weight problems, who are also at a higher risk of suicide and self-harm.
Is that what I am doing? Ignoring it?
Thought we were talking about it.
” This is a group that is actively seeking to “transform culture”, which means that they WILL be “making us” by any means possible. Based on the campaigns they have posted on their website, they are in full outreach mode on many levels. ”Relentless” is the word that comes to mind.
Speaking for myself, if I choose to defend traditional marriage against those who seek to redefine it, that does not mean I’m in denial that those alternative relationships exist. I used to work in the entertainment industry, so I know firsthand of their existence. :0)”
Yes, they are seeking to transform culture. They want to see their goals of non-traditional family structures accepted as much as the nuclear family model. Just like you and I are with pro-life work, just like you might be with wanting the divorce rate lessened and whatever else you would like to see with culture. Everyone has a certain way they would like culture to be.
” These folks are angry that their disordered attachments are not validated, so it’s their mission to turn it upside down on its head. Gender? Just a state of mind. Traditional families? From their website: the “outdated notion that a family consists of a mom at home and a dad at work.”
See how it works? THEY dictate to us that it’s an outdated notion. We take a stand, and then we’re accused of all sorts of intolerance and bigotry.
Messed up.”
Well it… is an outdated notion. Me and my kids are a family, we didn’t magically not become one when my ex-wife moved out. My sister and her girlfriend and her daughter are a family. Families are all different types, currently. You have the same right as anyone to say that you don’t agree with certain family structures, and think that they should idk go away, and literally no one is stopping you from saying that. Dissent is not silencing. Nothing in the constitution protects you or any other traditional marriage supporter from criticism (you are protected from actual harassment though, if someone harasses you for your views that’s not okay).
” Of course the traditional family has its anomalies and dysfunctions, but that does not mean it has to be trashed in the manner that these self-described radicals seek.
And BTW, Jack, I’m fully aware of the difficulties you’ve experienced in your life, so I’m not invalidating that. It’s sad beyond words and I get where you come from on this.”
Many of the dysfunctions in the traditional families cause the “alternative” families that upset you guys, like single parenthood and step-families. Why don’t you guys focus on that. Gay people are always going to exist, and they are going to have families. They are also a small percentage of the population. I don’t understand why traditional marriage advocates don’t focus on strengthening straight relationships and focusing on reducing divorce and single parenthood, because that’s a much, much bigger issue than the small amount of gay households that you don’t like. You guys could actually really help there. I don’t understand why you all focus so much on gay people, who really aren’t going to go away.
“A desperate person that needs immediate attention tries to end their own life.
Bullies may contribute to a person’s feelings of low self worth or depression but a person that hangs themselves(gay or straight)could have gotten help. I believe that. ”
We’re talking about kids. Teens. They are pretty easily overwhelmed and feel unable to seek help, and they don’t even have all their brain development finished yet. Pretty short term thinkers. They end up more affected by bullying and ostracization than adults, and they are less likely to understand and think about the long term consequences of suicide than adults are. That’s why these campaigns are needed, the “It Gets Better” stuff and safe places for LGBT youth to come to. Because kids don’t always make the best decisions and are pretty strongly effected by what’s going on around them.
Btw sorry if I sound extra snarky or angry or whatever, I’m not trying to be.
All you have said about teens is true. Which is also why they shouldn’t be engaging in high risk behaviors like drinking, smoking and sex!!!
We won’t agree on this Jack. People try to end their own lives for lack of hope. They themselves decide to try no matter the outside influences.
I am snarky too. :)
You mean those programs run by Dan Savage??
Yeah. Tolerance!!
I feel the same way about teens with weight problems, who are also at a higher risk of suicide and self-harm.
Maybe a hallway for fat teens? Bullying is wrong, no matter who is being bullied and for what reasons. If I refuse to condone overeating as a healthy lifestyle choice, will I be called a hater?
“All you have said about teens is true. Which is also why they shouldn’t be engaging in high risk behaviors like drinking, smoking and sex!!!
We won’t agree on this Jack. People try to end their own lives for lack of hope. They themselves decide to try no matter the outside influences.”
Where did I disagree that teens shouldn’t be involved in high risk behaviors (coincidentally, LGBT teens are more likely to be involved in these behaviors)?
Of course people decide to try suicide, no one can “force” you to commit suicide. It’s simply true though that social support has a lot to do with suicide, though. No matter how you guys want to pretend that LGBT people are just weak-minded or something, fact remains social pressures have something to do with it, just like when an overweight teen slits her wrists or an abused teen hangs himself.
And honestly I’m getting rather disgusted with this conversation. Half the people on this thread were going on about how that single mother should be allowed to have her picture in the yearbook, how everyone should support her and her baby, how it’s not condoning her behavior to support and celebrate her family, etc etc (of course I agree). But if she were a lesbian? Hide her and that kid! It’s seriously just pure hypocrisy.
” Maybe a hallway for fat teens? Bullying is wrong, no matter who is being bullied and for what reasons. If I refuse to condone overeating as a healthy lifestyle choice, will I be called a hater? ”
Have I called anyone a hater? Don’t think I’ve used the word. I do think some people are being hypocritical here, but hate is a whole different thing.
Of course teens with weight issues should have safe spaces and people to support and talk to them about what they are going through. And no one has to “support” unhealthy eating, but neither should people be shamed or hidden away from public view for their diet choices or their bodies.
I think I get the hypocrisy, actually. A lot of you were unwed pregnant mothers, or single moms, or raised by single parents, been divorced or raised by divorced parents etc. So you can see that people in that situation need support and love regardless of what choices that you think are sinful, wrong, and damaging. You realized that the shame and pressure wasn’t good because you’ve been through it or watched those close to you go through it. But you apparently haven’t ever struggled with your sexual identity, or been isolated because of your attraction/decision to date someone of the same gender. So you don’t seem to understand that the way you talk about LGBT people and wish for their choices and lives to be treated is exactly what you argue against when it comes to single mothers and divorce and the like. Maybe you could try to see it from that point of view.
Jack, there is something particular to the SSM issue and homosexuality in general. I think you were right to bring up the example of the reaction to the pregnant teen’s photo being excluded from the yearbook. The example is instructive in my opinion. People were generally supportive of this teen and her family structure because she was not requesting that people promote and advocate for premarital sex and teen pregnancy. If the teen was doing that I am sure more people would’ve agreed with banning the photo.
From my perspective, the homosexual scenario is unique amongst moral issues because homosexuals intimately identify their very being with what many religions view as a sin. Homosexuals see their sexuality as orientation, most religions do not. Because of this “orientation” theory of homosexuality, homosexuals need to radically change any culture primarily built on the twin foundational ideas: 1) sin exists and 2) people are not inherently linked to their sin. If homosexuality could be unlinked from the person then many homosexuals would not feel so strongly about having families, SSM, etc….
Alternatively, it means getting the state out of the marriage and family business altogether. This is why I think that Masha person admitted that gay marriage is ultimately about diminishing and destroying traditional marriage eventually. Will religions be continue to be free/allowed to exist?
I was typing this post and missed your 6:40 post. I think that post sums it up quite neatly. And sort of touches on what I have just raised.
Here’s the thing with which I struggle. I would like to be a loving and supportive individual when it comes to teens who have been led by pop culture to believe that the LGBT community is the *only* one that will accept them and affirm their value. I believe that we have both (LGBT and anti-LGBT) contributed to the rise in homosexuality and ‘alternative lifestyles’ by our extreme anti-gay approaches. I worry about the teens who need our love and support (not our ‘non-biased non-judgmental’ support but our loving & clear support of them while we disagree with and guide them lovingly away from the LGBT lifestyle.). I worry about the teens who get our judgment on them personally, our embarrassment over ‘what people will think’ and our tight-lipped shame over the choices our kids have made.
And I’m not saying everyone who objects to ‘alternative lifestyles’ also behaves like this. I’m just saying that I worry that we aren’t being as Christian as we could about the approach-and I mean fully Christian. I mean, following the precepts of Christianity including the understanding that homosexuality is unnatural, while lovingly and in a Christ-centered way, guiding them to God.
BUT while I really do feel like this is best and supports those who have fallen into the trap of popular sexuality as well as possible, I also worry about what it means for those children and teens who are seeing our reaction to the LGBT community. What do we do to discourage them from following this path without driving them directly into this community? What do we do to make it clear that it is unnatural while still approaching the subject with the true love of Christ? This is my concern…
BUT I certainly don’t believe that these Ecards are a good and healthy way of approaching the LGBT issue.
“where promoting and normalizing sexual perversion was the order of the day.” – or, as the rational and appropriately qualified would call it ‘providing factual information about the different aspects of human sexuality’.
“The agenda is for all of us to accept and celebrate homosexuality. By forcing it down our throats.” – yeah, getting arrested for refusing to march in a gay pride parade is just so wrong! And remember, you have until the end of 2020 to be married to someone of the same sex.
“They have no right to foist their lifestyle on children K-12 in the public schools.” – ah, don’t you just love the way the word ‘lifestyle’ is thrown in in an attempt to preface discussion with the assumption that being homosexual is a choice.
“Heather has 2 Mommies…….etc. Making it appear normal.” – well it is actually. Maybe not predominant but there’s nothing abnormal about it.
“I just don’t see how homosexual acts (lesbian or gay) are loving.” – that’s fine Tyler, you don’t have to. All you have to do is not let a lack of understanding become prejudice which may lead to discrimination or hatred.
“If these folks were simply about we-are-who-we-are-and-leave-us-alone, then the “No-one-is-making-you/just-live-your-life” argument might carry more weight.” – now what does that remind me of.
“they WILL be “making us” by any means possible” – hm, more familiarity.
“We won’t agree on this Jack. People try to end their own lives for lack of hope. They themselves decide to try no matter the outside influences.”
That’s just so totally, incredibly false.
“Maybe a hallway for fat teens?”
Or a hallway for self-righteous, public school catechism “instructors.”. Preferably a short one, with the doors closed.
” From my perspective, the homosexual scenario is unique amongst moral issues because homosexuals intimately identify their very being with what many religions view as a sin. Homosexuals see their sexuality as orientation, most religions do not. Because of this “orientation” theory of homosexuality, homosexuals need to radically change any culture primarily built on the twin foundational ideas: 1) sin exists and 2) people are not inherently linked to their sin. If homosexuality could be unlinked from the person then many homosexuals would not feel so strongly about having families, SSM, etc…. ”
I don’t understand you at all, Tyler. It’s just demonstrably fact that some people have same sex attractions and some are orientated that way. They can’t “unlink” it from themselves, no matter how much they hate themselves for it, how much they wish it would go away because they want to be “normal” and they are told it’s a sin. Even those ex-gay programs, whole bunch of self-hating gays there, have members who acknowledge that they can’t make the attractions go away completely, even if they suppress and deny them. Dude, you guys even had a Pope who admitted that some people will always struggle with being attracted to the same gender, even though he obviously agrees with the traditional Catholic teaching that homosexuality should not be expressed with action. I don’t understand how you guys think people can uncouple that from themselves.
And some LGBT people are Christians, and do believe sin exists. My sister is one of them. She simply doesn’t believe that God considers homosexuality a sin. Now you can go argue theology with someone like her all you want, but the existence of people like her proves your one assertion false, that for gay people to exist out of the closet they need to pretend sin doesn’t exist.
No matter how you guys want to pretend that LGBT people are just weak-minded or something, fact remains social pressures have something to do with it, just like when an overweight teen slits her wrists or an abused teen hangs himself.
The difference is is that our society does not promote overeating and abuse as a positive, healthy, normal choice. No, we don’t need to hide overeating, abuse, or homosexual behaviors, but we don’t need to celebrate them either.
Or a hallway for self-righteous, public school catechism “instructors.”. Preferably a short one, with the doors closed.
I don’t instruct the catechism at the public school, BV. But there are public school students who come to the Catholic school to receive catechism instruction from me. Does this upset you?
Definition of “self-righteous” — anyone who disagrees with Megs.
I don’t care to argue about how sin is viewed in different theologies. What I was wondering – is it possible for homosexuals to be celibate? Are homosexuals free to not engage in homosexual acts? And what defines a person’s character – their moral choices or their compulsions? I understand that homosexuals probably want to say both matter and/or some may say that they freely choose to follow their compulsions in a moderate and moral fashion. All I can say is that these response don’t jive with my sense of how things work and what is good.
Society doesn’t promote homosexuality as a choice either.
Definition of ‘self-righteous’ – those who insist that their beliefs and behaviors are the ones everyone should follow.
Jack says:
I think I get the hypocrisy, actually.
You should “get” it, you invented it. It’s all in your mind. Where is the post saying lesbian mothers should go into hiding? Or not celebrate Mother’s Day? Or that if the high school girl was lesbian she shouldn’t have her baby in the yearbook? You assume that’s what those commenting think, but I sure don’t see it in the comments here.
Does it upset me? Only so much as promoting lifelong male celibacy and obsessive fixation on female reproductive capabilities as “healthy” and “normal” activities upsets me.
“I don’t care to argue about how sin is viewed in different theologies. What I was wondering – is it possible for homosexuals to be celibate? Are homosexuals free to not engage in homosexual acts? ”
Of course, LGBT people are just as capable of not having sex as anyone else, no matter who it’s with. I am assuming you don’t immediately try to sleep with every woman you find attractive (and if you do, you should probably get some psychiatric help). Gay people are no different in that regard. It’s just that a good portion of them simply do not agree that they need to be celibate to satisfy your sense of right and wrong (and I hope that those who do choose to forgo relationships don’t do it because other people want them to, they make the choice themselves for their own reasons).
“And what defines a person’s character – their moral choices or their compulsions? I understand that homosexuals probably want to say both matter and/or some may say that they freely choose to follow their compulsions in a moderate and moral fashion. All I can say is that these response don’t jive with my sense of how things work and what is good. ”
It doesn’t need to “jive” with you, because no one is telling you that you have to be with a guy.
” You should “get” it, you invented it. It’s all in your mind. Where is the post saying lesbian mothers should go into hiding? Or not celebrate Mother’s Day? Or that if the high school girl was lesbian she shouldn’t have her baby in the yearbook? You assume that’s what those commenting think, but I sure don’t see it in the comments here.”
I don’t think I invented it, actually. That entire post about that teen mom, and pretty much every post about single moms (who are straight), aborting women, etc is filled with people who will smack down most judgments of the person’, say that we need to support her and not condemn her, that we shouldn’t shame her even though we don’t agree with what she did yada yada. But the minute something about homosexuality comes up, it’s all about “don’t shove this down our throats”, it’s wrong, stop trying to “normalize” it, and all that. It’s really quite obvious to me at least.
The agenda is for all of us to accept and celebrate homosexuality. By forcing it down our throats. By trying to make it appear normal and “just like any other family.”
I am the only one who said this. Me. Just me.
“well, it’s true that other families might have two moms or two dads, but the Bible says that’s a sin and that’s what we believe, but we shouldn’t be mean to those who live like that”. How is that so hard?”
That’s not hard. But what’s being taught and pushed is much more than that, Jack. Anything but accepting that homosexual sex is the equivalent of heterosexual sex is deemed hateful (not by you but by those in favor of this view in general). You know this is true. Just look how Chris Broussard was treated after expressing pretty much the exact thing you wrote in response to the gay NBA player. Anything short of affirming people in their actions is considered hateful because our society rejects the notion that you can love the person without loving the behavior. I believe that’s what Tyler was saying we need to unlink – this notion that people ARE defined by their sexual orientation and not by their behavior. So in your response you mentioned that choosing to live chastely does not remove the homosexual attraction. That’s true, but it’s no impediment to loving the person because the attraction is not the sin and the attraction is not the person.
“Anything short of affirming people in their actions is considered hateful” – only when there is nothing intrinsically wrong with their actions. Most people would consider criticism of someones left-handedness to be hateful. It’s no different with homosexuality.
Jack one other concern I had regarding homosexuality, which rarely seems to get raised in the conversation, is determining what the effects are on those individuals who are easily influenced by peer pressure when society accepts homosexuality. So I can concede that homosexuality is innate for many homosexuals but there must be some individuals who have their sexuality imposed on them from their environment, or external forces, and peer pressure. This reality seems undeniable. These individuals must exist. If tobacco companies are able to convince people to smoke, and abortion companies can convince mothers to abort their own children, it seems highly likely that homosexuals can influence other people to become homosexual. Given that there are higher health risks and costs to homosexuality, shouldn’t society try to dissuade people from engaging in homosexuality based solely for health reasons?
For example, society learned long ago that fornication, sex outside of marriage, created problems for society and young mothers so the State quickly recognized that if it supported the institution of marriage it could help reduce the number of teen pregnancies and reduce the related costs to society.
“only when there is nothing intrinsically wrong with their actions.” liberal argument at its finest.
“I am the only one who said this. Me. Just me.”
Then why? You’re probably the kindest person on this site when it comes to single moms, to women who want to have/have had abortions, etc. But when it comes to homosexuality it’s like you’re willing to believe the worst of people and don’t seem to have the same kind of grace towards people who never did choose to feel this way. I don’t understand at all.
What are you trying to say CT? That you think it’s fine to express hatred towards people who are doing nothing wrong?
“That’s not hard. But what’s being taught and pushed is much more than that, Jack. Anything but accepting that homosexual sex is the equivalent of heterosexual sex is deemed hateful (not by you but by those in favor of this view in general). You know this is true. Just look how Chris Broussard was treated after expressing pretty much the exact thing you wrote in response to the gay NBA player.”
The loudest people in any movement tend to be the most extreme, that goes for all of the things we agree with and the ones that we don’t. The Christians you hear about in the news don’t act like you, and the gay rights activist you hear about don’t act like the average gay person either. Literally every gay person I know doesn’t care if Christians think being gay is a sin, as long as people don’t bully them or block their rights, just like the vast majority of vegetarians don’t try to force other people into not eating meat.
”Anything short of affirming people in their actions is considered hateful because our society rejects the notion that you can love the person without loving the behavior. I believe that’s what Tyler was saying we need to unlink – this notion that people ARE defined by their sexual orientation and not by their behavior. So in your response you mentioned that choosing to live chastely does not remove the homosexual attraction. That’s true, but it’s no impediment to loving the person because the attraction is not the sin and the attraction is not the person.”
Then people need to stop saying people choose to be gay, if you really believe that the attraction isn’t sinful then why is there this push to insist that people choose to be attracted to the same sex? Why do people argue with me and insist it can’t possibly be something that someone is born with, or is instilled in them early on? Do you have any idea how much it sucks to have people tell you over and over you chose something that they think is wrong when you didn’t even choose it?
And who you are attracted to IS part of you. Whether you ignore it and choose to live a different way, that doesn’t change the fact that is a part of you.
And really, I think most of my problem is you guys focus so, so much more on sexuality, specifically homosexuality, than all the other sins. If you genuinely treated it like any other sin, and there wasn’t these millions of misconceptions and flat out weirdness happening in these conversations, I probably wouldn’t be near as annoyed by this subject. The less charitable part of me thinks that this happens because most of the people on this blog haven’t personally experienced it, so it’s easier to judge because you’re not judging something you personally have struggled with. (I’m using “you” in general here, not directed specifically at you CT).
Jack,
I tend to agree that there is a disproportionate amount of energy focused on the issue of homosexuality in our world/culture (or a disproportionate amount of anger/frustration over it), although I believe that part of that is because homosexuality is one of the few sins by which people proudly define themselves. Regardless of this, though, you are aware, I hope, of the concept of a hierarchy of sins? Not all sins are created equal? That whole thing? I think you’ll find that many of the posters who object to the LGBT lifestyles feel that acceptance of these lifestyles is a threat to the fabric of society in a fairly immediate and deep sense. I personally object to the LGBT lifestyles but feel that there should be a loving approach, such as we have towards women fooled into abortion. We make the most ground when we combine clear and plain fact with personal experience with sin/temptation. And we’ve all experienced some sort of temptation of the flesh.
Anyway, that’s my little soapbox.
“Jack one other concern I had regarding homosexuality, which rarely seems to get raised in the conversation, is determining what the effects are on those individuals who are easily influenced by peer pressure when society accepts homosexuality. So I can concede that homosexuality is innate for many homosexuals but there must be some individuals who have their sexuality imposed on them from their environment, or external forces, and peer pressure.”
I think you’re confusing behavior with orientation, actually. Some things can influence sexual behavior, sexual abuse is one that seems to have some evidence that it can contribute to people acting out sexually, whether with the same gender or not. Peer pressure is another, so I suppose your concern is valid. But all unsafe or indiscriminate sexual activity can have a high cost, that’s not specific to homosexuality. I think all sexual coercion and pressure is wrong, of course, and I think everyone should be educated on what can happen if you have unsafe sex, how to avoid feeling peer pressured into sex you don’t want or don’t feel ready for, and how to protect yourself.
And I’m pretty sure there are far, far more straight people coercing or influencing people who aren’t ready for sex or don’t want casual sex than there are gay people in existence. From what I have seen.
I agree Mary Rose and Jack we should try to look for what unites us as human beings and what brings us into the light.
BTW Jack why are gay people so down on reparative therapy or people leaving the gay life/scene? What if their sexuality was only behaviour based and not a result of a gay orientation? These people should be allowed to get the help they need. I find this aspect of the loud gay voices most troubling.
” Regardless of this, though, you are aware, I hope, of the concept of a hierarchy of sins? Not all sins are created equal? That whole thing? I think you’ll find that many of the posters who object to the LGBT lifestyles feel that acceptance of these lifestyles is a threat to the fabric of society in a fairly immediate and deep sense. I personally object to the LGBT lifestyles but feel that there should be a loving approach, such as we have towards women fooled into abortion. We make the most ground when we combine clear and plain fact with personal experience with sin/temptation. And we’ve all experienced some sort of temptation of the flesh.”
Well, from my readings of the Bible it seems to me that lying and lack of love and charity as some things God hates far, far more than I’ve seen homosexuality and other sexual sins mentioned. I could be wrong though, but that’s the impression I get from the New Testament. So if we’re talking about a hierarchy, if I were to rank sins according to what I see in the Bible, I would guess that lying and lack of love and charity are the worst ones. That’s just my impression though, I could be wrong. Still, I don’t see people freaking on non-charitable people like they do gay people, even though it’s pretty obvious that not being charitable is something God strongly dislikes (I’ll give some Catholics a pass on this specific example, because the CC is pretty big on the charity thing and they do get mad when people aren’t giving of time/money).
You guys would probably get a lot less anger with a more loving approach, I do agree. But I will disagree with you about people finding common ground with the temptation of the flesh thing, it seems to me like most people judge people who have gay sex far harsher than they judge people who engage in straight premarital sexual activity. Again, that’s just an impression of mine, it could just be me.
they do get mad when people aren’t giving of time/money
LOL.
“homosexuality is one of the few sins by which people proudly define themselves” – that would be because a growing number of people recognise that it isn’t a sin. Something which is not a choice and of itself causes no harm no longer rates as a sin for most.
“why are gay people so down on reparative therapy” – because it’s well proven to be a load of old tosh.
“or people leaving the gay life/scene?” – because they know those people aren’t being honest.
“I find this aspect of the loud gay voices most troubling” – can you guess which groups’ loud voices I find troubling?
Jack,
Let me clarify. When I say that we should combine fact with personal experience, I mean simply admitting to our faults and sins. I lived with my boyfriend before we were married. I have done quite a few things that would be pretty clearly in the same category of sins of the flesh and which damage the integrity of the family structure just as much. And I believe that I can relate to the desire to give myself to my partner even when I have good reason to believe that it is hurtful to my God. I did not then have the sort of understanding that I do now, and I do hope that I would not repeat my errors, but I can relate to the temptation of sins of the flesh. I am not trying to in any way compare persecution. I was disallowed from seeing/interacting with my siblings (all of whom were young and impressionable) until I ‘made right’ with the Lord. I’m not entirely sure how I feel about it. I was not reviled or spat upon, though, so I would not compare that aspect of my experience. But talking about my choices and why I made them and why they hurt me and have affected my marriage for 7 years is a place from which I can have a dialogue with someone who is open to talking with me about this subject. Understood?
I would say you’re probably right about the lying/lack of love & charity thing. Some of that must come from within, some from external prodding. And to some extent, we can only know what we are given, so it is difficult to focus on the charity thing, but I will say, as a Catholic, that I have seen a great deal of love and charity from those of other Christianities, too. The problem is when we fail to be charitable & loving in thought as well as deed. We must use charitable words, charitable thoughts, charitable actions towards others while acknowledging sinful deeds. This is only possible through the Grace of God, and so it is incredibly important that we develop our relationship with Him.
can you guess which groups’ loud voices I find troubling?
Cook The Pizza Until Its Done And Then Deliver Society?
“BTW Jack why are gay people so down on reparative therapy”
Like I’ve told you before, reparative therapy is problematic. It’s not the same thing as a therapist helping someone resolve what issues they have with their sexual behavior.
“or people leaving the gay life/scene? What if their sexuality was only behaviour based and not a result of a gay orientation? These people should be allowed to get the help they need. I find this aspect of the loud gay voices most troubling.”
Actually I’ll disagree with Reality on this one and say that I partially agree here. Some people do have issues with sexuality, whether they were engaging in a behavior that they weren’t really orientated towards because of some issues, or they have chosen to ignore or suppress their gay desires because of their religious beliefs or whatever. I have noticed some of the louder people in the gay rights movement being quite judgmental towards these people, and I think that’s unfair and wrong. No one has to be out of the closet if they would rather not be, and no one has to express their sexuality if they don’t want to. But, I think that more often the gay rights activists have problems with those who “leave the lifestyle” so to speak, and then start judging and condemning those who don’t want to break up with their partners and become celibates or force themselves to be with the opposite gender.
”that would be because a growing number of people recognise that it isn’t a sin. Something which is not a choice and of itself causes no harm no longer rates as a sin for most.”
Reality-what rates as a sin for most does not define what is and is not sin. Most Germans during WWII believed that it was not sinful to force Jews, homosexuals, and others to wear demeaning patches meant to increase biases against them. That doesn’t mean they were right. Contrary to popular opinion, the masses don’t define sin, nor do they validate or invalidate truth.
Why would they trouble me Tyler? Please explain.
Finally, beloved, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is pleasing, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. -Philippians 4:8
This freaks me out – I read Philippians today and I thought of sending this exact verse to Jack due to a previous conversation I had with Jack. Jack, did this verse have any special meaning to you when you read it?
Reality, if it is not the Cook The Pizza Until Its Done And Then Deliver Society you find troubling which loud voices do you find troubling?
Who does then MaryRose? And why does what is considered ‘sin’ or ‘truth’ change? Why does it differ between cultures? And across time?
“And to some extent, we can only know what we are given, so it is difficult to focus on the charity thing, but I will say, as a Catholic, that I have seen a great deal of love and charity from those of other Christianities, too.”
I wasn’t trying to imply that non-Catholic denominations aren’t charitable. They just aren’t as centralized, so it’s really dependent on the specific church rather than denomination. I’ve met plenty of Christians of plenty of denominations who are incredibly charitable, and some who are not so much. I just meant that the CC as a rule is pretty big on that charity thing. Catholic Charities tends to do a good job.
And I get what you’re saying about starting a dialogue with your own mistakes and experiences. I see that as a nicer approach than the condescension I see from people sometimes. It doesn’t mean necessarily mean people will listen and agree with you, but they’ll probably react a lot better.
” This freaks me out – I read Philippians today and I thought of sending this exact verse to Jack due to a previous conversation I had with Jack. Jack, did this verse have any special meaning to you when you read it? ”
Not really. I’ve seen it many times before, it’s quite the popular one. Harder to follow than it is to quote, I think. What previous conversation are you talking about that we had?
Who does then MaryRose? And why does what is considered ‘sin’ or ‘truth’ change? Why does it differ between cultures? And across time?
Truth doesn’t vary between cultures or across time. The common perceptions of truth and sin shift, but the actual reality don’t change. No one defines truth. It is.
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you know me, you will know my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him.” -John 14:6-7
Jack,
What about the Philippians verse doesn’t make sense? From our thoughts stem our actions. Therefore, just and pure and true thoughts breed a greater number of just and pure and true actions.
You already know Tyler, but just to make you happy – those who think that they themselves and the the way they live their lives demonstrate the only ‘right’. ‘moral’ and ‘normal’ which are true and acceptable.
You already know Tyler, but just to make you happy – those who think that they themselves and the the way they live their lives demonstrate the only ‘right’. ‘moral’ and ‘normal’ which are true and acceptable.
I believe that the way given to us by the Son is the only ‘right’ and ‘moral’ which is true and acceptable. I don’t know about ‘normal’-I’d say living an extreme lifestyle such as Christ, or one of the saints, is pretty abnormal. But right and moral and true and certainly acceptable to our Lord, yes.
My life, though? Sinful and failing and difficult. A struggle daily to do even the simple good which I know is needful. Thank God for His Grace!
“The common perceptions of truth and sin shift, but the actual reality don’t change.” – sounds like you believe you may know what the ‘actual reality’ of truth and sin are. Do you? How? Why?
“No one defines truth.” – some here seem to try to do so.
“It is.” – if no one defines it how does anyone know what it is?
Oh goodness I have a terrible grammar error above. “ The common perceptions of truth and sin shift, but the actual reality don’t change,” should say “The common perceptions of truth and sin shift, but the actual reality doesn’t change.”
Yikes.
“I believe that the way given to us by the Son is the only ‘right’ and ‘moral’ which is true and acceptable.” – which interpretation? From which era?
Reality,
We know because God has given us Truth again and again and again, through his Word, through His Spirit, and through His Church. What a beauty to have the Bride of Christ to guide us!
That’s your belief MaryRose, not evidential reason. But anyway…
Back in the 1930’s and 40’s my parents were constantly beaten by nuns for being left handed. My younger sister didn’t seem to suffer and the only issue my son had was the school refused to purchase left-handed hockey sticks.
Where did the sin lie in all this? Ecclesiastes 10:2.
” What about the Philippians verse doesn’t make sense? From our thoughts stem our actions. Therefore, just and pure and true thoughts breed a greater number of just and pure and true actions.”
I didn’t mean it was hard to understand. I mean it was hard to “follow” as in put into practice. Especially since no one seems to agree on what is pure and true, even within Christianity.
Yes, Christians, including Catholics, are sinners who fail to uphold God’s Word in themselves just as all other religions-and atheists-are filled with those who struggle and fail both to uphold Universal Truth and also to uphold personal faith. Christ himself chose betrayers, sinners, and deniers of Him to be the original Twelve. This was not accidental-it was to remind us, as the saying goes: every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.
Still, it is in no way beneficial for us to deny Truth.
That doesn’t answer my question MaryRose.
Was I beholden to you, Reality? If it is a deeper understanding you seek, there are better scholars than myself. If it is to shake my faith, you are ‘barking up the wrong tree,’ as this woman has seen too much of His Grace to turn her back on her Lord because some of her fellows were harsh and unloving.
You’re not beholden to me or anyone else MaryRose :-)
We ended up where I thought we would.
Peace.
I’m not sure what more you might expect. It seems that connecting the verse you referenced with lefthandedness is a pretty weak connection, but again, I’m a believer who tries to do what’s right. I am not a scholar who went through quite a lot of education to understand Scripture. That is why I depend upon the Church, and why it is such a terrible thing when a priest/pastor leads his flock wrongly.
Did the school actively refuse to buy lefthanded equipment, or did they simply default to buying righthanded equipment (as is common)? I’m just curious-I recognize, as I mentioned, that there are sinners among us.
I do wish you peace also. I wish that I had all the answers.
It’s the type of verse which justified declaring left handedness to be sinful and requiring physical punishment.
It’s just that you claim your god is the only definer of truth and of what constitutes sin yet you don’t know what is truth and what is sin in all circumstances. And it changes. Therefore how can you know you are correct in the circumstances you do pronounce upon?
I think it was just a default position, although you would think there would be enough left-handers over time that it would be worth having a couple of left-handed sticks.
No one has all the answers. I doubt they ever will.
Then why? You’re probably the kindest person on this site when it comes to single moms, to women who want to have/have had abortions, etc. But when it comes to homosexuality it’s like you’re willing to believe the worst of people and don’t seem to have the same kind of grace towards people who never did choose to feel this way. I don’t understand at all.
Jack,
I have love and grace for all people. That is true. I do not have to accept or celebrate behavior that the Bible says is wrong. I believe in God and God’s word. And any love you feel from me is from Him. He saved me from myself and I will never be ashamed to say that I am a Christ follower.
People love me and hate what I have done. I had an abortion.
I can separate what people do and who they are. We are all His whether others choose to believe that or not. We reject Him so we can live the way we want.
Where it stands right now His truth is hate to those who hate His truth.
And the state right next door to me will become the 12th state to legalize gay “marriage.” There is a ceremony at 5pm today.
And like I said the Bible will be deemed hate speech and pastors will be arrested for NOT performing gay ceremonies. And who will stand for them? You? Reality? BV?
…except that, compared to the imagined threat of Christian persecution, the ghouls of Westboro Baptist are ACTUALLY spreading their homophobia and vitriol at every opportunity they can get. Gay teens are ACTUALLY committing suicide because they’re told their relationships are perverted and won’t be legally recognized. Do you know the difference between fantasy and reality?
Are you talking to me BV Megs??
Do you know the dif between fantasy and reality? You told me yesterday that an innocent human being was killed in abortion but that nobody said abortion is pretty. Hmmmmmmmmmm.
Westboro is a cult. They can believe they are Christians. I believe differently.
They are WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
Imagined persecution? Are you serious? There are Christians all over the world being beaten and tortured and killed for NOT denouncing Jesus.
We are persecuted here as well. Because we are religious, homophobic, hating bigots.
There is my sarcasm again Megs. Thought I would help you out a bit.
PS
I love you.
WHY do I get sucked into such tangents like Westboro??
Let’s focus shall we?
Globally Christians are persecuted. That’s certainly true.
But we live in a country where every President has been, at least nominally, a Christian. States still debate about allowing schools to teach Creationisn over evolution.
The most you can complain about is that an angry gay customer wrote a nasty Yelp review after dealing with a homophobic cake baker. And again, extremist groups like Westboro can make hateful claims based on their understanding of the Bible and it’s still protected speech.
If the law protects Westboro, it protects literally everybody else. Someone disagreeing with you though is not a form of persecution.
Right right. I am only complaining while others are sharing their more valid thoughts and opinions.
Disagreeing with the homosexual lifestyle is deemed hate speech. Intolerant. Homophobic. Bigoted.
Got it.
Have a great day Megs!!
This conversation is pointless.
Being called bigoted is not the same thing as a pastor being forced to perform a gay ceremony. And it’s even further from half of society saying that your relationships are perverted.
A disproportionate number of homeless youth are gay. Am I persecuting their Christian families and communities for pointing that out?
“And the state right next door to me will become the 12th state to legalize gay “marriage.” There is a ceremony at 5pm today.”
Good. I’m happy for them.
“And like I said the Bible will be deemed hate speech and pastors will be arrested for NOT performing gay ceremonies. And who will stand for them? You? Reality? BV?”
You mean like how anti-gay people were denied their right to protest funerals in court? And how churches all over were forced to perform interfaith marriages?
Oh wait, it’s the opposite of that. You live in a country with strong freedom of speech and religion protections, but that doesn’t matter. When people start with this hysteria there’s seriously nothing that can be said. For some weird reason, you guys equate people standing up for themselves (as in, gay people saying that they are normal and disagreeing that they are sinners, and wanting certain legal protections like marriage) with you somehow, magically, losing your freedom of religion. Even with all evidence to the contrary.
And I’m seriously, 100% done with this conversation when you start the “who will stand up for us poor majority Christians??? You?”. Because obviously, if there’s a freedom of religion or speech or other civil right being denied to Christians, of freaking course I would. The fact that you guys have talked to me for a couple years and you think I would shrug off a pastor being forced to perform a marriage or the Bible being defined hate speech just frankly pisses me off, lets me know that you all actually don’t care to actually know people who aren’t religious, you’re just going to stereotype even if you know them quite well.
“Literally every gay person I know doesn’t care if Christians think being gay is a sin, as long as people don’t bully them or block their rights, just like the vast majority of vegetarians don’t try to force other people into not eating meat.”
And therin lies the debate as to what’s bullying and blocking of rights. I have seen this (and not just from the extremes, Jack – it’s a general view) that opposing gay marriage or viewing homosexual sex as disordered and sinful could be motivated by nothing other than hate for the homosexual person. If what it takes for me to not be “hateful” or a “bully” is to shut up and get out of their way, then that’s not going to happen. That is not authentic love. If it was a question of two adults filing joint taxes and nothing more you’d have a point, but it’s not just about legal rights. It’s about forcing acceptance of the equality of a gay marriage and a straight marriage (and all that comes with that).
“Then people need to stop saying people choose to be gay, if you really believe that the attraction isn’t sinful then why is there this push to insist that people choose to be attracted to the same sex? Why do people argue with me and insist it can’t possibly be something that someone is born with, or is instilled in them early on? Do you have any idea how much it sucks to have people tell you over and over you chose something that they think is wrong when you didn’t even choose it?”
I don’t know why people argue this. Possibly due to the lie that all homosexual behavior is the result of an innate orientation and the pressure to stop people who want to change their behaviors that are problematic for them. Possibly b/c people think admitting this somehow loses the argument? I do think some people are born with a propensity towards homosexual attraction. But it’s irrelevant to the discussion of behavior.
“And who you are attracted to IS part of you. Whether you ignore it and choose to live a different way, that doesn’t change the fact that is a part of you.”
PART of you. Not all of you. And our actions define us FAR more than our propensities because our actions (and deliberate thoughts – thoughts we entertain) are manifestations of our will.
“And really, I think most of my problem is you guys focus so, so much more on sexuality, specifically homosexuality, than all the other sins. If you genuinely treated it like any other sin, and there wasn’t these millions of misconceptions and flat out weirdness happening in these conversations, I probably wouldn’t be near as annoyed by this subject.”
I think if we weren’t dealing with the push to normalize, celebrate and legitimize this sin, then it probably could be treated more like the others. A temptation for some people, that some are able to resist and others aren’t. I think that’s true of sexual sins in general (and why you note the greater emphasis on them in our culture) because it’s gone beyond a common temptation often succumbed to in human weakness to a movement to argue that there are no sexual sins at all.
“The less charitable part of me thinks that this happens because most of the people on this blog haven’t personally experienced it, so it’s easier to judge because you’re not judging something you personally have struggled with. (I’m using “you” in general here, not directed specifically at you CT).”
That’s a true statement in general. People have a tendency to minimize their own sins and amplify others’, but I believe the reason the Church focuses on it so much is more attributable to my reason above than to this.
You asked Jack.
I answered.
And THIS is why I rarely comment on threads about homosexuality.
“A disproportionate number of homeless youth are gay. Am I persecuting their Christian families and communities for pointing that out?”
Silly Megan. True discrimination and persecution is being called a bigot or homophobe or people not liking your views (even when you have every legal right to state them and that has been upheld in court multiple times). Not being murdered, beaten, kicked out of your home, denied services because of who you are dating, not being able to get married to the person you share your life and home with, being equated morally to pedophiles, being called perverted by major religious leaders and their followers, and everything else. Don’t you see that Christians are actually the victims here? Why is that so hard to understand.
“You asked Jack.
I answered. ”
Well, I don’t generally take kindly to people implying I’d be fine with legal discrimination just because it’s against a group I’m not a part of.
” And therin lies the debate as to what’s bullying and blocking of rights. I have seen this (and not just from the extremes, Jack – it’s a general view) that opposing gay marriage or viewing homosexual sex as disordered and sinful could be motivated by nothing other than hate for the homosexual person. If what it takes for me to not be “hateful” or a “bully” is to shut up and get out of their way, then that’s not going to happen. That is not authentic love. If it was a question of two adults filing joint taxes and nothing more you’d have a point, but it’s not just about legal rights. It’s about forcing acceptance of the equality of a gay marriage and a straight marriage (and all that comes with that). ”
See, this is why these conversations are half impossible. You think it’s wrong that people want homosexuality to be accepted and some call people bigots for saying it’s perverted or disordered. Yet you don’t seem to understand that you’re doing to the exact same thing with wanting homosexuality to not be accepted and calling it perverted and disordered (I know you haven’t used the word perverted, but most people do). You guys want privileges, not equality. You apparently don’t like that you can legally rail against homosexuality legally all you want but people are allowed to criticize you harshly. What do you guys actually want? Do you want it to be illegal to call Christians bigoted for calling gays perverted? Do you want any discussion of alternative “lifestyles” to be couched in Christian language, otherwise you consider it forcing their views? What?
” I don’t know why people argue this. Possibly due to the lie that all homosexual behavior is the result of an innate orientation and the pressure to stop people who want to change their behaviors that are problematic for them. Possibly b/c people think admitting this somehow loses the argument? I do think some people are born with a propensity towards homosexual attraction. But it’s irrelevant to the discussion of behavior.”
I think it’s because, deep down, you guys realize it’s rather cruel to insist people become life-long celibates or force themselves into unhappy marriages because of the way they are born.
Okay that’s just me being a jerk. I do understand the difference between behavior and orientation, and I get the viewpoint that people are just supposed to deny their orientation. But not everyone is going to do so, just like not everyone follows the rest of your moral code.
It is only going to get worse for me and fellow believers.
That is all I am saying.
I can express myself and still care about others. So can you.
But I need to be done on this thread.
” I think if we weren’t dealing with the push to normalize, celebrate and legitimize this sin, then it probably could be treated more like the others. A temptation for some people, that some are able to resist and others aren’t. I think that’s true of sexual sins in general (and why you note the greater emphasis on them in our culture) because it’s gone beyond a common temptation often succumbed to in human weakness to a movement to argue that there are no sexual sins at all. ”
Yeah, straight people started that movement towards how sex is viewed. Anyway, like I’ve said before, there’s a much, much bigger problem with straight people knocking each other up before marriage and divorcing at pretty phenomenal rates, which causes more social ills than gay people could ever hope to do. If people focused their efforts on that, rather than focusing on a small part of the population, where the vast majority were born orientated that way, there could actually do some good.
“See, this is why these conversations are half impossible. You think it’s wrong that people want homosexuality to be accepted and some call people bigots for saying it’s perverted or disordered. Yet you don’t seem to understand that you’re doing to the exact same thing with wanting homosexuality to not be accepted and calling it perverted and disordered (I know you haven’t used the word perverted, but most people do).”
I want homosexuals to be accepted. As people. As human beings. Even if they are not celibate. Even if they can’t resist the temptation. But I will never accept the behavior or accept it being taught to children in our public schools that it’s just one expression of human sexuality, equal to all others.
“You guys want privileges, not equality. You apparently don’t like that you can legally rail against homosexuality legally all you want but people are allowed to criticize you harshly. What do you guys actually want? Do you want it to be illegal to call Christians bigoted for calling gays perverted? Do you want any discussion of alternative “lifestyles” to be couched in Christian language, otherwise you consider it forcing their views? What?”
Not at all! People are certainly free to say anything they like. However, what started this whole thing is you pondering: ““well, it’s true that other families might have two moms or two dads, but the Bible says that’s a sin and that’s what we believe, but we shouldn’t be mean to those who live like that”. How is that so hard?” My response to you was it’s so hard b/c the very act of believing it’s a sin and rejection of it as an acceptable behavior is considered hateful and bigoted. So by all means, people are free to call me a bigot, think I’m hateful, refuse to serve me in their restaurants, whatever - but do NOT pretend that there is any scenario like the one you described where I believe what I do and we all get along. It does not exist, as you have just demonstrated b/c the very belief and attempt to share that belief with others is what you (and supporters of homosexual “rights”) find intolerable. That’s fine so long as we stop with the pretense.
“I think it’s because, deep down, you guys realize it’s rather cruel to insist people become life-long celibates or force themselves into unhappy marriages because of the way they are born.”
Right. B/c we don’t advocate sacrifice in our own sexual lives (those of us that believe this way) and argue for it vigorously as the ideal (regardless of people’s individual failings).
“Yeah, straight people started that movement towards how sex is viewed. Anyway, like I’ve said before, there’s a much, much bigger problem with straight people knocking each other up before marriage and divorcing at pretty phenomenal rates, which causes more social ills than gay people could ever hope to do. If people focused their efforts on that, rather than focusing on a small part of the population, where the vast majority were born orientated that way, there could actually do some good”
Who are you to judge their behavior? Do you hate them? Tongue in cheek, but the point is you see these behaviors as harmful to the person and to society. That’s exactly what motivates most people’s opposition to homosexual sex. And even if I agree that these are bigger problems it doesn’t make the legitimization of homosexual sex not a problem.
Reality,
When I don’t know the difference between right and wrong, I say so. When I struggle with the answer, I pray on it and study it and am honest about it. I do not, however, think that because I don’t personally *know* all the answers that the answers aren’t there. Us not *knowing* truth doesn’t invalidate its existence as an ultimate, and our mistaken interpretations don’t invalidate the Word.
I think one of the big issues with greeting cards like this is their own statement, “It’s a campaign that seeks to shift the narrative on motherhood, and specifically bring love and light to the mamas who are more often demonized by our political climate and our media than celebrated.”
I, at least, seek no narrative on motherhood whatsoever when it comes to my children. Not outside of my parameters. And this is one-one-example of a way in which the LGBT community seeks to introduce the conversation to my children without my agreement. The idea is to make the lifestyle more approachable, more inviting, to children as well as adults. Guess what? I don’t bite. I don’t want the lifestyle more approachable to my children. And I have the right to teach them that while some people choose this life, we do not condone that choice. It doesn’t mean we hate or insult or accuse or abuse those people.
” I want homosexuals to be accepted. As people. As human beings. Even if they are not celibate. Even if they can’t resist the temptation. But I will never accept the behavior or accept it being taught to children in our public schools that it’s just one expression of human sexuality, equal to all others.”
See, we’re fine with the first part. Dislike homosexuality all you want, I don’t think anyone has to accept it. The second part is debatable. By chance, are you pro-teacher led school prayer, compulsory or otherwise?
“My response to you was it’s so hard b/c the very act of believing it’s a sin and rejection of it as an acceptable behavior is considered hateful and bigoted. So by all means, people are free to call me a bigot, think I’m hateful, refuse to serve me in their restaurants, whatever - but do NOT pretend that there is any scenario like the one you described where I believe what I do and we all get along. It does not exist, as you have just demonstrated b/c the very belief and attempt to share that belief with others is what you (and supporters of homosexual “rights”) find intolerable. That’s fine so long as we stop with the pretense. ”
But you’re wrong, because I don’t find it “intolerable” that people think homosexuality is a sin, actually. Me, and other people, disagreeing and maybe arguing against something is not the same as finding it hateful or evil or whatever you think we think. I think Reality might think that all disagreement with homosexuality is hate, but I don’t agree with that. Seriously, if you don’t think it’s hateful that people on this blog call gay people perverted and accuse them of having an agenda and persecuting Christians, then I don’t see how you can think anything I say is being hateful.
” Right. B/c we don’t advocate sacrifice in our own sexual lives (those of us that believe this way) and argue for it vigorously as the ideal (regardless of people’s individual failings).”
No, you advocate some sacrifice. Sacrifices I don’t personally find necessary, but whatevs it’s not my sex life. There’s quite a difference between waiting until you find a husband at age 22 to have sex and forgoing birth control, and expecting people to never have an intimate relationship for their entire lives. But I was just being snarky, and I don’t really care, if some Catholic gay person wants to do that, it’s fine. I think it’s nuts that you think this is going to appeal to people who don’t share your religious viewpoint though.
” Who are you to judge their behavior? Do you hate them? Tongue in cheek, but the point is you see these behaviors as harmful to the person and to society. That’s exactly what motivates most people’s opposition to homosexual sex. And even if I agree that these are bigger problems it doesn’t make the legitimization of homosexual sex not a problem.”
It’s more that I think it’s ridiculous that so, so much attention is given to the gay issue, even on a pro-life blog where obviously only a tiny percent of LGBT are going to have abortions. Babies die from straight people sleeping around, but apparently it’s important to dedicate a lot of space to being mad people of the same sex are screwing around.
Jack, do you think it is acceptable to teach homosexuality to children? Is the practice of homosexuality healthy for people with homosexual inclinations, in your opinion?
What do you mean by “teach homosexuality”?
I think it’s fine to tell kids that some people date people of the same sex, and they don’t deserve to be treate badly because of it. Anything other than that I think is more up to the parents. My oldest knows that his aunt is a lesbian, and he knows Daddy thinks that is fine and that Mommy’s religion says that’s wrong but that doesn’t mean that Mommy thinks his aunt should be treated badly.
I think most people agree that we should treat homosexual people with decency. If that is your point I think this conversation is pretty much done unless you can specify what more you think society at large should be doing for the homosexual community. Is it the fact that SSM is not legal that bothers you, or is it just the lack of pro-gay e-cards because this is starting to seem like a lot of hot air over nothing very critical?
What do you mean by “teach homosexuality”?
Teaching anal and oral sex to kids in grade 7?
“I think most people agree that we should treat homosexual people with decency. If that is your point I think this conversation is pretty much done unless you can specify what more you think society at large should be doing for the homosexual community. Is it the fact that SSM is not legal that bothers you, or is it just the lack of pro-gay e-cards because this is starting to seem like a lot of hot air over nothing very critical?”
No, I object to people calling gay people perverted, comparing them to pedophiles, accusing them of wanting to persecute Christians because they want gay marriage legalized, the utter lack of an attempt to genuinely understand them (for example, the insistence that they don’t actually want to get married, they just want to destroy families), the utter refusal by some to accept that some people are simply born with/ otherwise have attractions to the same gender that they literally can’t help, and other thing that I see on this blog and otherwise. I mean, my ex wife isn’t the nicest person in the world, but I’ve never heard her talk about gay people like I’ve seen some do here and in real life, and she firmly believes homosexuality is a sin. I don’t see people treating the LGBT community with decency, when I see things like that.
Now I’m just ranting so I think I should take a break from the thread.
But seriously Tyler, as I’ve told you before, anal and oral sex aren’t homosexual acts, they are sex acts that anyone of any orientation is capable of doing. I’ll probably explain what they are to my kids when they are eleven or twelve.
Jack may I ask why you are so supportive of the homosexual community?
I think I know where you coming from and I agree with a lot of your goals, observations, and peeves. However, there are some points you made that I disagree with. For one, I don’t see many (in fact, very rarely) anti-gay comments on this website so I don’t know where that comment of yours comes from. Second, not all the issues that you raised are of equal import or are single issue topics. For example, the issue of gay marriage touches on many other areas aside from the rights of homosexuals. Gay marriage also touches on the issue of how children should be raised for one. Third, you seem to treat too often (not always) the homosexual community as one monolithic community that doesn’t have divergent and extreme voices. For example, there are more gay people (and others) who truly want to destroy the traditional family and traditional marriage than you seemed to imply in your comment. This fact should not surprise you and the fact that you deny it makes me question your otherwise spectacular integrity and honesty and fairness.
“The second part is debatable. By chance, are you pro-teacher led school prayer, compulsory or otherwise?”
The second part is indeed debatable and that’s the point. You can’t end the debate through fiat by indoctrination in schools. I’m not in favor of teachers leading prayers in public schools.
“But you’re wrong, because I don’t find it “intolerable” that people think homosexuality is a sin, actually…Seriously, if you don’t think it’s hateful that people on this blog call gay people perverted and accuse them of having an agenda and persecuting Christians, then I don’t see how you can think anything I say is being hateful.”
I don’t think you’re hateful, but it certainly seems like you find it intolerable unless people are expressing a very watered down understanding of sin. Homosexual behavior IS a perversion of proper sexual expression. And seeking to get that behavior accepted as normal and even equal to a marriage is an agenda of the LGBT(whatever other letters are on the end of it now) movement. They do have an agenda to push acceptance not only of the person but of the behavior. I don’t think any of what I said is untrue or hateful.
“No, you advocate some sacrifice. Sacrifices I don’t personally find necessary, but whatevs it’s not my sex life. There’s quite a difference between waiting until you find a husband at age 22 to have sex and forgoing birth control, and expecting people to never have an intimate relationship for their entire lives.”
Well if you don’t find a spouse, you would be asked to sacrifice a sexual (note sexual is not the same as intimate) relationship for your entire life. The point is that it’s a coherent view of the nature of the human person and the proper purpose of sex. Not because we secretly know that we are being cruel to gay people but don’t care. But because sex is properly expressed within the bonds of a marriage. Only.
“I think it’s nuts that you think this is going to appeal to people who don’t share your religious viewpoint though.”
I don’t think it will appeal to them necessarily. And I don’t care (in the global sense – I care about the individual of course) if gay people don’t listen and want to engage in homosexual sex. But that’s a far cry from accepting their version of proper human sexuality. I don’t accept it, and I will continue to say so and why that’s so.
“It’s more that I think it’s ridiculous that so, so much attention is given to the gay issue, even on a pro-life blog where obviously only a tiny percent of LGBT are going to have abortions. Babies die from straight people sleeping around, but apparently it’s important to dedicate a lot of space to being mad people of the same sex are screwing around.”
There wouldn’t be anything wrong with not devoting space to the issue of homosexual relationships on a pro-life blog, but many people see the redefinition of marriage as part of the larger discussion about the dignity of human beings and of the family. Just like it wouldn’t be necessary, but certainly wouldn’t be inappropriate to discuss divorce, premarital sex, the hookup culture on this blog. If that’s what you want then there are secular pro-life blogs available. But there’s nothing wrong with discussing the broader topic of the sexual revolution – all its components.
“Jack may I ask why you are so supportive of the homosexual community?”
Maybe because they are a group of people who have been treated pretty terribly in this country for many years and still face a lot of discrimination? Maybe because my sister is a lesbian? Maybe I have my own personal reasons? Who knows? Why is it important?
“For one, I don’t see many (in fact, very rarely) anti-gay comments on this website so I don’t where that comment comes from. ”
Probably because you agree with them. You probably don’t see very many rude anti-liberal comments here either.
“Second, not all the issues that you raised are of equal import or are singly issue topics. For example, the issue of gay marriage touches on many other areas aside from the rights of homosexuals. Gay marriage also touches on the issue of how children should be raised for one. ”
No, I actually do understand that, I just disagree with the doomsayers. And I do firmly believe that straight people do a lot, lot more to mess up kids than gay people do, it’s simply numbers. Priorities.
“Third, you seem to treat too often (not always) the homosexual community as one monolithic community that doesn’t have divergent and extreme voices. For example, there are more gay people (and others) who truly want to destroy the traditional family and traditional marriage. This fact should not surprise you and the fact that you deny it makes me question your otherwise spectacular integrity and honesty and fairness.”
Where do I deny it? Some of the extremists believe that and I’ve acknowledged that before. Some Christians want to bring back anti-sodomy laws and make being in a homosexual relationship illegal again, but I don’t consider that a prevailing opinion among most Christians, so why would I judge gays by the extremists? Doesn’t seem fair.
Also the threat to human life from homosexual couples is not limited to abortion. They pose the same threat as heterosexual couples who make use of ART. And that is no small threat.
Probably because you agree with them. You probably don’t see very many rude anti-liberal comments here either.
I found that funny. I just hope it wasn’t true.
BTW, the reason I asked about your personal reasons for supporting the homosexual community was because you seem to support them quite a lot and you seem passionate about doing so. I was hoping to understand what motivates that compassion.
” BTW, the reason I asked about your personal reasons for supporting the homosexual community was because you seem to do support them quite a lot and you seem passionate about doing so. I was hoping to understand motivates that compassion.”
Well, I do know what it’s like to be disliked and judged for something you never had any control over. It’s an exceedingly unpleasant experience. There are many reasons. I’ve seen gay kids kicked out of their homes and become hookers. I’ve been called a faggot for being raped by another male, which wasn’t even my choice. I once listened to a lady tell her kid, who must have been around five, in a loud voice that gays go to hell when they were sitting in the bus seat behind a gay couple. There are a lot of reasons I think the LGBT community needs defending, the most important of which is that they are human beings who don’t deserve the stuff that they get accused of (for the most part, of course there are some bad gay people just like there are bad straight people).
Thanks for sharing that Jack.
Those were keen and caring observations. If I may make one request is that you try to remember the bracketed statement at the end a little more often when you comment on gay issues in the future. Not everyone has had a positive experience dealing with gay people or the gay community.
” The second part is indeed debatable and that’s the point. You can’t end the debate through fiat by indoctrination in schools. I’m not in favor of teachers leading prayers in public schools.”
Well, I see a difference between being factual and indoctrinating. Facts: gay people exist. Some kids have gay parents. Some religions think homosexuality is a sin, some don’t. Regardless, gay people should be treated with the same respect you would treat anyone else. That’s really the only thing I would like to see in regards to homosexuality at a young age when it comes to schools.
And I am never going to get why anyone had a problem with that Heather Has Two Mommies book. All it said was basically “some kids have two mommies, two daddies, whatever, and they love each other like other families do”. Is that something you don’t want kids to hear? Really? Why???
” I don’t think you’re hateful, but it certainly seems like you find it intolerable unless people are expressing a very watered down understanding of sin. Homosexual behavior IS a perversion of proper sexual expression. And seeking to get that behavior accepted as normal and even equal to a marriage is an agenda of the LGBT(whatever other letters are on the end of it now) movement. They do have an agenda to push acceptance not only of the person but of the behavior. I don’t think any of what I said is untrue or hateful.”
Well, I would state the “gay agenda” as “treat us like anyone else, same rights, otherwise just leave us alone”. But I can see we probably aren’t going to agree about what’s kind or loving towards people.
I am totally going to start calling Christian EXPRESSION of belief, not the actual BELIEF perverted and indecent, and see how long until I get banned. Totally kidding, but seriously. You see your faith as a part of your identity, you can’t separate it from yourself. That’s pretty much what you all expect of LGBT people to be totally cool with.
” I don’t think it will appeal to them necessarily. And I don’t care (in the global sense – I care about the individual of course) if gay people don’t listen and want to engage in homosexual sex. But that’s a far cry from accepting their version of proper human sexuality. I don’t accept it, and I will continue to say so and why that’s so.”
Yup. And I’ll be here to argue about it as long as you guys say it. Free speech is great. I could just ignore it, I suppose. But then how will people know that all pro-lifers don’t agree with this?
” If I may make one request is that you try to remember the bracketed statement at the end a little more often when you comment on gay issues in the future. Not everyone has had a positive experience dealing with gay people or the gay community.”
Then they need to work on getting over it. People have all kinds of bad experiences, with all kinds of people, but it’s not okay to judge an entire group because you’ve had a few bad experiences. I tend to do it with Christians, and that’s completely wrong and bigoted of me. I need to work on that just like people who’ve had bad experiences with gay people need to.
Then they need to work on getting over it. People have all kinds of bad experiences, with all kinds of people, but it’s not okay to judge an entire group because you’ve had a few bad experiences. I tend to do it with Christians, and that’s completely wrong and bigoted of me. I need to work on that just like people who’ve had bad experiences with gay people need to.
I will overlook the angry tone and accept the idea of your statement.
And I am never going to get why anyone had a problem with that Heather Has Two Mommies book. All it said was basically “some kids have two mommies, two daddies, whatever, and they love each other like other families do”. Is that something you don’t want kids to hear? Really? Why???
1) It is a sin; 2) Because it is not natural Jack and could be confusing to the children not raised in such environment, and 3) it is not necessary.
I wasn’t trying for an angry tone, sorry if it came across that way.
“1) It is a sin; 2) Because it is not natural Jack and could be confusing to the children not raised in such environment, and 3) it is not necessary.”
So we’re back to pretending nontraditional families don’t exist again? I see no problem with stating in a factual way that gay families exist and they love their kids too. I don’t see anything confusing about that. How do you explain single parents to your son, btw?
CT, excellent comments.
Jack,
I don’t want my children taught “in a factual way” that vegetarians exist by their schools, and I see no sin in vegetarianism. I simply want to be the one to introduce life choices and ESPECIALLY those with a moral or ethical code to my children. I want to be able to control the way in which they are taught about Heather having two mommies because I don’t believe that Heather’s mommies are expressing true Christlike love towards one another because I don’t believe that love is this great fuzzy emotion, and I do believe that helping another person on a path away from God is antithetical to loving.
Now, that doesn’t mean that I should teach my children to call gay people bad names, or to treat them poorly, or anything of the sort. It does mean, however, that I don’t want my children to be taught about homosexuals and homosexual behavior by anyone but myself or a designated moral guide. (Consequently, there are a lot of family members I wouldn’t want to have teach my children this subject).
I feel I should also note that I don’t want anyone who isn’t designated by me (as in, not generally the teacher either) to tell my kids all about Catholicism either. Or about Christ’s life. In fact, we discourage my MIL from taking kids to her church for this reason.
So we’re back to pretending nontraditional families don’t exist again? I see no problem with stating in a factual way that gay families exist and they love their kids too. I don’t see anything confusing about that. How do you explain single parents to your son, btw?
Jack, they exist through the fact of male/female procreation. They exist in the same way the single=parent family exist – through the traditional family. Also, are we going to teach about all the family structures when same families don’t want to teach their kids about this subject and don’t agree that all the family structures are moral? Why is it necessary to teach kids about this reality? It seems unfair to these parents who have different values from you and don’t want their kids exposed to such things. Why should your opinion on homosexual family structures be the one that is taught to children who aren’t yours? Would you feel it is ok for me to teach your Children Catholicism or to have the schools force Catholic teaching on your children?
The kids of such families already know what it means to live in such a family.
“the Bible will be deemed hate speech and pastors will be arrested for NOT performing gay ceremonies” – why don’t you just claim that heterosexual marriage will be outlawed? It would be no less accurate, or histrionic.
“the ghouls of Westboro Baptist” – no no BV, its the Westboro sidewalk counsellors.
“It is only going to get worse for me and fellow believers.” – no. It’s your ability to unjustifiably make things worse for others which will be affected.
“I think Reality might think that all disagreement with homosexuality is hate,” – some of it is fear, some of it is ignorance and some of it is choice.
“Jack, do you think it is acceptable to teach homosexuality to children?” – it’s more a case of being taught about homosexuality. Because it is a normal, though not predominant, part of human sexuality.
“you find it intolerable unless people are expressing a very watered down understanding of sin” – it’s your understanding of sin. Its not everyones. And its not the determinant unless you live in a theocracy.
“The point is that it’s a coherent view of the nature of the human person and the proper purpose of sex” – no. Again, that’s your view, not everybody’s.
I think some of you may be happier living in Russia where it’s getting close to where if you publicly declare “homosexuals shouldn’t be beaten in the streets” you may find yourself behind bars.
Or one of those African nations where US evangelicals are working hard to convince governments to introduce draconian laws and severe punishments (including the death penalty) for homosexuality.
it’s more a case of being taught about homosexuality. Because it is a normal, though not predominant, part of human sexuality.
Reality please explain how homosexuality is part of human sexuality. In exactly what way does homosexuality help perpetuate human beings?
By the way you must be using the word “normal” in a non-scientific sense since you acknowledged in the same sentence that homosexuality is not the norm.
“Reality please explain how homosexuality is part of human sexuality.” – because as you well know Tyler, some people are born homosexual and there is nothing wrong, sinful or immoral about that.
“In exactly what way does homosexuality help perpetuate human beings?” – well I guess the alarmingly perpetually falling population of the planet shows they can’t, hey. So what?
“By the way you must be using the word “normal” in a non-scientific sense since you acknowledged in the same sentence that homosexuality is not the norm” – just for you – “it’s more a case of being taught about homosexuality. Because it is a part of human sexuality, not an abnormality.” You know Tyler, like having red hair or being left-handed isn’t an ‘abnormality’, unless you think…..
WOW!!!! Is this is a hot topic or what???
So glad I recently listened to a ex-lesbian who talked about this issue recently. She is so glad that she after 18 years in the lifestyle (living as a man), she attended a church where she was lovingly given the message of the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. She has been set free from homosexuality for 13 years and now ministers to others in the lifestyle. She says many want to come out of the lifestyle but don’t know that it is possible. She states it is a behavior which can be due to many reasons but it is not a immutable nor genetic characteristic. God loves homosexuals and lesbians although she is indeed hated by the gay activists. Some gays now say she never a lesbian and you cannot change from being homoseuxal (she laughs at that accusation). God is able to transform by the renewing of the mind.
For those who want to know the damage that same-sex “marriage” can do the schools (K-12), parental authority, public health, the legal system, businesses owned by Christians, employment, harrassment of churches, religious organizations, health organizations, hospitals, rates of domestic violence, social organizations with religious consciences, the media, politice, government mandates, adoption, birth certificates etc. Read the article “What same-sex “marriage” has done to Massachusetts? on the website http://www.MassResistance.org. Profound consequences.
Let me know if anyone wants a link to an excellent article by Robert Oscar Lopez who was raised by a lesbian mother in the gay community, explaining why he is against SSM. He states “the fight for gay marriage has never been about marriage but about legal cover for their bioethical stunts”. He says the black market for babies in 3rd world countries, designer babies in ”gayborhoods’, etc. is being driven by the demand of LGBTs that they are “owed” children and is creating an “Oncoming Human Rights Crisis” that is already hurting children and will hurt them more. Profound stuff as well. Mr. Lopez says he cannot get an interview with MSM because he is so hated by LGBTs, and he is not PC and he has also received many threats for uncovering the real agenda of the gay movement activists.
“Well, I see a difference between being factual and indoctrinating. Facts: gay people exist. Some kids have gay parents. Some religions think homosexuality is a sin, some don’t. Regardless, gay people should be treated with the same respect you would treat anyone else. That’s really the only thing I would like to see in regards to homosexuality at a young age when it comes to schools.”
Most anti bullying campaigns leave out the part about some people believing it’s a sin (unless it’s in the context of “some narrow minded bullies believe it’s a sin”). Also I will point out that what you want taught in schools and the material actually being taught in schools (look at MA) are two very different things. The facts on the ground aren’t in line with what you’re proposing.
“And I am never going to get why anyone had a problem with that Heather Has Two Mommies book. All it said was basically “some kids have two mommies, two daddies, whatever, and they love each other like other families do”. Is that something you don’t want kids to hear? Really? Why???”
I haven’t read the book, but I imagine there might be an element of “there’s nothing wrong with this family structure” that’s causing the objection.
“Well, I would state the “gay agenda” as “treat us like anyone else, same rights, otherwise just leave us alone”. But I can see we probably aren’t going to agree about what’s kind or loving towards people.”
True enough. We’ve already had the discussion of trying to equate things that are not equal.
“I am totally going to start calling Christian EXPRESSION of belief, not the actual BELIEF perverted and indecent, and see how long until I get banned. Totally kidding, but seriously. You see your faith as a part of your identity, you can’t separate it from yourself. That’s pretty much what you all expect of LGBT people to be totally cool with.”
Many people do call Christian belief (and expression of belief) perverted and hateful and indecent (among other names). I wouldn’t ban you but we know I wouldn’t ban the swearing either so I’m probably no judge. You are certainly entitled to believe that Christian belief and behavior are morally wrong.
”Yup. And I’ll be here to argue about it as long as you guys say it. Free speech is great. I could just ignore it, I suppose. But then how will people know that all pro-lifers don’t agree with this?”
Exactly – that’s why I think these discussions have a place on this blog.
Thank you, Lrning!
” So glad I recently listened to a ex-lesbian who talked about this issue recently. She is so glad that she after 18 years in the lifestyle (living as a man), she attended a church where she was lovingly given the message of the redeeming power of Jesus Christ. She has been set free from homosexuality for 13 years and now ministers to others in the lifestyle. She says many want to come out of the lifestyle but don’t know that it is possible. She states it is a behavior which can be due to many reasons but it is not a immutable nor genetic characteristic. God loves homosexuals and lesbians although she is indeed hated by the gay activists. Some gays now say she never a lesbian and you cannot change from being homoseuxal (she laughs at that accusation). God is able to transform by the renewing of the mind.”
It’s so cool how that lady is a geneticist or a biologist and knows that no gay people are so because of genetics or biology. Where did she publish her research?
I guess the articles I have read by gay Catholics and Christians who choose to live celibate rather than express their orientation are just weak-willed or lying when they say they are still sexually oriented towards the same gender, even though they choose not to express it because they believe it’s sinful.
You people, I swear. Do you have any idea what it’s like to hate yourself every day for feeling something that you can’t control and has been with you for as long as you can remember? That’s what you encourage if you continually go on this denial of homosexuality as an orientation thing. It’s not remotely loving to blame people for being oriented a certain way and claim that every one of them can be “set free”. Even if it’s a sin, even if you think it should never be expressed with action, it exists and people can’t make it go away no matter how hard they pray, and it’s just really damnably cruel to insist otherwise. Then you wonder why the kids kill themselves. “Can’t be our faults, we love them”.
Hmmm I’m obviously not going to be able to respond to the comments directed at me in anywhere near a polite way for a while. Apologies, I’ll get to them when I can.
As Jack keeps reminding us Prolifer L, there is a difference between sexual orientation and how that behavior is expressed or acted upon. Your so-called ‘ex-lesbian’ (who lived as a man?), has chosen to repress or deny her sexuality for whatever reason by whatever means. She certainly hasn’t been ‘set free from homosexuality’, she’s just avoiding it. Like a red-head dyeing their hair black. It may be possible to not actively live as a lesbian but that doesn’t mean they’re no longer lesbian.
“She states it is a behavior which can be due to many reasons but it is not a immutable nor genetic characteristic.” – well she states an inaccuracy.
As for the article you linked to, well….it lost some of its amusement value because it is so toxic in its manifestation of homophobia, bigotry, ignorance, discrimination, misinformation and lack of truth.
Reality it is very hard to take anything you say seriously. You are willing to deny the very humanity of the preborn but you think it cruel to deny the sexual orientation of a homosexual. This makes very little sense. For Reality: humanity is not innate, sexual orientation is innate.
“It’s not remotely loving to blame people for being oriented a certain way and claim that every one of them can be “set free”. Even if it’s a sin, even if you think it should never be expressed with action, it exists and people can’t make it go away no matter how hard they pray, and it’s just really damnably cruel to insist otherwise.”
Some people are oriented that way, but anyone can be “set free” from sin. Whether it’s through a change in behavior not tied to orientation or through a control of impulses that stem from orientation. It’s not remotely loving to tell people otherwise or to affirm them in sin because you feel the sin is impossible to avoid. Prayer does not make things easy. It doesn’t change what tempts us but how we respond to the temptation. It opens our hearts to hear God’s whisper “Trust me – I made you and I love you. Trust me, what I ask is what’s best for you. Take up your cross and follow me.” I usually don’t comment from such a strictly faith pov but when you comment on what is and is not possible through prayer and faith, I feel it’s an appropriate way to respond.
Dear me Tyler, are you going to join the parade of fallacy claiming that I deny that a gestating human fetus is a member of the human species? I’vs stated that a gestating human fetus is a member of the human species numerous times.
It’s not ‘cruel’ to deny the sexual orientation of a homosexual, it’s just erroneous. How people behave on the basis of that error is what is cruel.
“Some people are oriented that way, but anyone can be “set free” from sin.” – that may be all well and good but homosexuality is not a sin. It’s not something that people need to be ‘set free’ from.
” Some people are oriented that way, but anyone can be “set free” from sin. Whether it’s through a change in behavior not tied to orientation or through a control of impulses that stem from orientation. It’s not remotely loving to tell people otherwise or to affirm them in sin because you feel the sin is impossible to avoid. Prayer does not make things easy. It doesn’t change what tempts us but how we respond to the temptation. It opens our hearts to hear God’s whisper “Trust me – I made you and I love you. Trust me, what I ask is what’s best for you. Take up your cross and follow me.” I usually don’t comment from such a strictly faith pov but when you comment on what is and is not possible through prayer and faith, I feel it’s an appropriate way to respond.”
You realize I understand this point of view, right? I’m arguing against the ridiculous assertion that people somehow choose to be gay (as in being attracted to the same sex, not the behavior) and that they all are capable of changing this attraction if they just pray hard enough. Can you understand the self-hatred that results from people being continually told that what they are, how “God created them” so to speak, is intrinsically wrong and that if they can’t change that they aren’t trying hard enough. Like I’ve mentioned several times already, I’ve read stuff from some gay Catholics and other Christians who know that they are still gay but choose not to express their sexuality. I might not think that’s necessary, but it’s not cruel like insisting that their sexuality is mutable if you try hard enough.
Fair enough, Jack. And you’ve been fair in admitting that everyone who engages in homosexual behavior doesn’t do so b/c of disposition. I agree prayer does not (always) remove feelings. The message needs to be (and in the Catholic Church, at least, is, that your feelings do not define you, and you need not be a slave to them in your actions. I was responding more to your “not every one of them can be set free” statement . I took it to mean free from sin not free from feelings.
” that may be all well and good but homosexuality is not a sin. It’s not something that people need to be ‘set free’ from.”
Homosexual behavior is a sin and something people need to be set free from. (how to debate like a liberal).
“Homosexual behavior is a sin and something people need to be set free from.” (how to debate like a theist).
For you and some others that may be so CT, so please feel free to conduct your lives accordingly.
For others that is not the case, they too are free to conduct their lives accordingly.
“For you and some others that may be so CT, so please feel free to conduct your lives accordingly.
For others that is not the case, they too are free to conduct their lives accordingly.”
Subjective reality from reality! I will indeed conduct myself accordingly in all aspects of life.
Sorry Jack but the ex-lesbian did NOT say people “choose to be gay or choose to have same-sex attractions”, she said homosexual sexual acts are a sexual behavior. She is the who one who tells her own story of being “set free” by Christ and she receives calls and emails from many who want to be free as well. May not be what you want to hear but that doesn’t make her a liar. Her story offers hope not damnation, the redeeming power of Christ offers hope to ALL including fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, dunkards, revilers, extortioners, who shall not inherit the kingdom of God… And such WERE some of you 1 Cor. 6:9-11 Paul’s letter to the Corinthian church proclaims freedom for everyone even a sinner like me. “Shooting the messenger”, someone who came out of the lifestyle does not negate her story or mean that she will never stuggle ever again. BTW, there is no “gay gene”, they have been trying for years to lock that one down but still cannot; like I said earlier lots of factors probably come into play. I realize you take this topic persoally Jack because of your love for your family member and you should love her. Good night and take care.
You believe in a god and believe that that god considers homosexuality to be a ‘sin’ and ‘wrong’ CT (mind you, as I previously pointed out, being left-handed was considered a sin until about 50 years ago, why not now?).
I am atheist and can find no reason to consider homosexuality to be a ‘sin’ or ‘wrong’.
Unlike homosexuality, red-headedness and being left-handed, being theist or atheist is not genetic. It is a choice based on what information and evidence we consider to be valid, accurate and relevant.
So yes, in some elements at least, reality obviously is subjective, if you are going to accord ‘reality’ to the moral and religious differences which are apparent in societies and over time.
“I will indeed conduct myself accordingly in all aspects of life.” – that’s fine. Just don’t expect everyone else to follow you.
What’s the female version of being “effeminate”? Because, if it exists, I TOTALLY have that sin. Proudly.
‘Butch’ seems to be a fairly common word xalisae, or at least it used to be.
Younger ladies have been called ‘tomboys’.
“Heavy in the loafers?” ;)
I just want to know how being “effeminate” is a sin in the first place. And how do you define “effeminate”? Or “butch”?
Ah, labels Jack, the downfall of descriptive accuracy.
How can we define where the effeminate scale begins and ends?
At what point would each of us declare someone butch, and to what level?
This could all lead to befuddlement.
Well, some people did seem pretty upset when dudes wear pink, that was a fun thread. Maybe wearing some color that’s been arbitrarily defined as “feminine” is where the “not cool, bro” line is? Lol.
Funny thing is the whole ‘pink for girls, blue for boys’ thing was the other way around about 100 years ago.
Many years ago I worked where everyone put a dab of paint on each of their tools to identify them. I chose pink specifically because there were some ‘good ol’ boys’ who seemed to think that anything found, made, discovered, invented or born after WW2 wasn’t worth a pinch.
Night :-)
Is “effeminate” a separate sin than being gay? Is it worse, or are they equal? Because I’ve known some dudes who were waaaaay effeminate, but were still heterosexual.
“I’ve known some dudes who were waaaaay effeminate, but were still heterosexual.”
Well those sinners need to drink some beer and eat some bacon, smack some broads and watch football and… idk I’m really bad at the macho masculine manly man thing.
I really am curious on how effeminate characteristics could be considered “sinful”.
Seems to be an issue with Bible translation, not effeminate characteristics. “effeminate” = “boy prostitutes” or “male prostitutes” in many translations. And yes, prostitution is a sin.
Yeah, I don’t really think anyone has ever explained that, but as the one from the pink-shirt conversation with the 7-year old boy who loves pink and flowers (and Skylanders and Star Wars!) and who spends his entire time in the outfield at Little League doing jazz hands, I am still holding people to task and asking for explanations whenever they make fallacious assertions.
Pastor Sean Harris of the Berean Baptist Church is quoted on video as saying, “So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, ‘Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,’ you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed….Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male.”
But when asked to clarify, even he – who seems to feel pretty strongly on the sinfulness of “not manning up” – copped out with a vague, “Those weren’t planned words, but what I do stand by is that the word of God makes it clear that effeminate behavior is ungodly. I’m not going to compromise on that.”
No one will ever explain WHY “effeminate” behavior is a) effeminate in the first place, and b) “ungodly.” Probably because nobody actually knows. Probably because it actually isn’t.
Jack, will you be responding to the question about whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview?
CT and Lrning (on other threads) thanks for explaining the faith much more clearly, concisely, and logically than I ever could. It is appreciated. As everyone probably knows by now, I know the faith with very little refinement which makes communicating it difficult. For this I must apologize to Jack (and even Reality!) for perhaps raising their ire inadvertently and to you two for clashing heads with the two of you.
“Jack, will you be responding to the question about whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview”
What do you mean? I have no problem with a school telling my kids that Catholicism exists, some people believe it quite firmly, and even if you don’t agree you shouldn’t treat Catholics badly. Basically, the exact same thing I would be okay with being taught about homosexuality.
” Pastor Sean Harris of the Berean Baptist Church is quoted on video as saying, “So your little son starts to act a little girlish when he is four years old and instead of squashing that like a cockroach and saying, ‘Man up, son, get that dress off you and get outside and dig a ditch, because that is what boys do,’ you get out the camera and you start taking pictures of Johnny acting like a female and then you upload it to YouTube and everybody laughs about it and the next thing you know, this dude, this kid is acting out childhood fantasies that should have been squashed….Can I make it any clearer? Dads, the second you see your son dropping the limp wrist, you walk over there and crack that wrist. Man up. Give him a good punch. Ok? You are not going to act like that. You were made by God to be a male and you are going to be a male.””
Oh I remember that guy. He’s disgusting. Advocating hitting children for mannerisms that you may not like. I believe him and my mom would get along.
I just want to ask him what EXACTLY am I supposed to beat my son for? I mean he plays with dolls, he plays house with his sister. Once when he was younger he got into his moms make-up and painted up his face. How many times should I hit him or humiliate him?
And I have zero tolerance for the “man up” bs even when it doesn’t come with a side helping of child abuse.
Jack, you sort of avoided the question. I didn’t ask if you would be ok with teaching me that Catholicism exists but whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview. In other words, would you be ok with me telling your kids that they have to be Catholics and that it is the only worldview that is correct, and that all other religions are not true? Would you be ok with this?
Sounds Pastor Harris and Dan Savage should have a boxing match. The pro-homosexual Dan Savage is quite intolerant of Christians.
“Seems to be an issue with Bible translation, not effeminate characteristics. “effeminate” = “boy prostitutes” or “male prostitutes” in many translations. ”
That would make more sense than characteristics that change over time like “effeminate” ones. I don’t think it’s deniable that a lot of religious people are uncomfortable with effeminate behavior though, especially the more fundamentalist churches like Southern Baptists or whatever. I think effeminate behavior gets conflated with homosexuality, which is not right.
“Jack, you sort of avoided the question. I didn’t ask if you would be ok with teaching me that Catholicism exists but whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview. In other words, would you be ok with me telling your kids that they have to be Catholics and that it is the only worldview that is correct, and that all other religions are not true? Would you be ok with this?”
Of course I’m not okay with it (but considering how many “street evangelists” I’ve met who don’t seem to care if I want them to talk to me or my kids, I wonder how common the trying to circumvent parents thing is). I wouldn’t expect you to be okay with that in regards to homosexuality either. It’s quite a different thing between just teaching something factually and trying to instill it as a value.
What are the “facts” about homosexuality in your opinion? Should children be encouraged to act on homosexual desires, and to seek homosexual relationships? Should those more open-minded individuals impose their open-mindedness on others? Should they tease and mock those other children or persons who have more conservative views?
Of course I’m not okay with it (but considering how many “street evangelists” I’ve met who don’t seem to care if I want them to talk to me or my kids, I wonder how common the trying to circumvent parents thing is). I wouldn’t expect you to be okay with that in regards to homosexuality either. It’s quite a different thing between just teaching something factually and trying to instill it as a value.
But Jack the school boards are trying to teach a value. The value that homosexual relationships and acts are good and not sinful. This is a value.
“What are the “facts” about homosexuality in your opinion? Should children be encouraged to act on homosexual desires, and to seek homosexual relationships?”
I already answered this about what I think is appropriate on a school level. If you’re wondering what I’ll teach my kids about homosexuality that’s a different story.
“Should they tease and mock those other children or persons who have more conservative views?”
You can’t possibly be seriously asking me this. I’ve said several times in this conversation and others that no one should be bullied, conservative children are included in this category.
Jack you talk Christian street counselling – what do you think about all of the Gay Parades, etc… Are they not the same thing? Please get out some scissors so you can do some hair splitting.
Also neither Christian street counselling or gay parades are similar to the state-funded teaching environment. In both of these situations people are free to walk away – not so in a school.
Well those sinners need to drink some beer and eat some bacon, smack some broads and watch football and… idk I’m really bad at the macho masculine manly man thing.
Don’t worry, Jack. I’ll just stomp my heavy loafers over there and show you how to be a man. :P
Playing first-person shooters, welding, riding motorcycles, doing landscaping work…You know…just everything in the world that’s awesome and fun.
but whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview.
I’m sorry, but where in the U.S. or Canada are kids being forced to become homosexuals? Because that’s the only way this analogy holds up.
“But Jack the school boards are trying to teach a value. The value that homosexual relationships and acts are good and not sinful. This is a value.”
I’m not a school board. I told you my opinions previously. I’m sorry you don’t like them.
Though I do think a lot of the complaining about homosexuality being “taught” in schools is hysteria. I’ve seen that Heather has Two Mommies book and similar things, it doesn’t seem to be pushing anything other than “these families are different, but they still love each other”. I am not going to be able to see what’s wrong with that, I think. And don’t bother telling me that LGBT people don’t *really* love their kids.
Tyler: What are the “facts” about homosexuality in your opinion? Should children be encouraged to act on homosexual desires, and to seek homosexual relationships?”
Jack: I already answered this about what I think is appropriate on a school level. If you’re wondering what I’ll teach my kids about homosexuality that’s a different story.
—-
Sorry Jack I can’t recall your answer or conversation getting that specific. If you can find the post where you made the comment I will be more than happy to look it up. Would you mind repeating your answer, just for clarity’s sake?
—-
I’m not a school board. I told you my opinions previously. I’m sorry you don’t like them.
Sorry Jack I don’t remember you telling me your answer. Whenever I seem to get specific you always pull away and say that you have answered this question before.
But Jack the school boards are trying to teach a value. The value that homosexual relationships and acts are good and not sinful. This is a value.
Ugh. “Not sinful” =/= “good”. Trying to tell kids that it’s not evil to be gay is not the same thing as trying to make the kids gay.
“Jack you talk Christian street counselling – what do you think about all of the Gay Parades, etc… Are they not the same thing?”
I think any parade centered around one’s preference for genitalia is stupid, but guess what? Nobody’s making me go, and no one is forcing me to bring my children. And I’m free to tell my kids I think “gay pride parades” are a bad idea, and you’re free to tell your children that you think those people are sinful, and they’re still free to have their stupid little parade, too. Why is individual freedom such a hard concept for you to grasp, Tyler?
The second anyone is FORCED to attend a gay pride parade and participate positively, you would possibly have a point.
“Jack you talk Christian street counselling – what do you think about all of the Gay Parades, etc… Are they not the same thing? Please get out some scissors so you can do some hair splitting.”
I don’t have a problem with Gay Pride parades, and I wouldn’t have a problem with a Christian Pride parade. People can get together and celebrate anything legal. What I don’t like is strangers bothering me while I’m just going about my business and people attempt to preach at me. Or even worse, those kids that they send to talk to other kids at the park. Wtf is up with that? You know it’s creepy to have adults talk to stranger’s children so you send other children to try and convert them? Weirdness.
Of course, I find “sidewalk evangelism” annoying but I wouldn’t want it illegal.
” Sorry Jack I can’t recall your answer or conversation getting that specific. If you can find the post where you made the comment I will be more than happy to look it up. Would you mind repeating your answer, just for clarity’s sake?”
I said there is nothing wrong with a school telling kids that gay people and different types of families exist, and whether or not you agree with it they are just people too who should be treated with respect and kindness.
Tyler: but whether you would be ok with me teaching your children about Catholicism, making them accept Catholic beliefs, and not tolerating any other worldview.
xalisae: I’m sorry, but where in the U.S. or Canada are kids being forced to become homosexuals? Because that’s the only way this analogy holds up.
—–
Sorry for not being more precise xalisae, that is not the only way the analogy holds up in my opinion. My analogy was that Catholicism and “homosexuality is not a sin” (aka pro-homosexual expression) are both values and worldviews. So in this sense becoming pro-homosexual expression is the same as being Catholic. Both are value-laden ways of looking at the world.
I said there is nothing wrong with a school telling kids that gay people and different types of families exist, and whether or not you agree with it they are just people too who should be treated with respect and kindness.
Jack can you please be more specific. Do you think homosexual relationships should be encouraged and supported? Also, Jack could you explain why you wouldn’t want your kids to have Catholicism imposed upon them?
xalisae I never said I was against Gay Parades. In fact, in some ways I am not and I think they can be healthy if done in a certain way. Moreover, I was just countering Jack’s objection to Christian street counselling. xalisae, I think you missed my edit in my original post about the Gay Parades.
“Jack can you please be more specific. Do you think homosexual relationships should be encouraged and supported? ”
What do you mean “supported and encouraged”? I don’t think teens should be “encouraged” to date regardless of their sexuality. I do think that bullying of any couple is wrong, and the school shouldn’t allow it. I guess I don’t know what you’re asking.
” Also, Jack could you explain why you wouldn’t want your kids to have Catholicism imposed upon them?”
You don’t have to ask that. You have months of my comments to draw on.
Not wanting my kids to be told that Catholicism is the one true religion and all others are false is one thing, them being taught basic facts is another. I don’t care if they are taught basic facts and that kids are told not to bully or mock people for their beliefs.
For you and some others that may be so CT, so please feel free to conduct your lives accordingly.
Ah, labels Jack, the downfall of descriptive accuracy.
Agreed. Then leave things that are already labeled alone. Marriage has already been labeled and defined and doesn’t need to be re-labeled. Call committed homosexual unions whatever you want but leave the word ‘marriage’ out of it.
You realize that in some states and districts they let kids be excused for school hours for “Bible school”, Tyler? I would LOVE to see the hyperventilating if kids were excused from school to go to a “gay school”.
Do you think homosexual relationships should be encouraged and supported?
Umm…I don’t think authority figures should be encouraging ANY romantic-style relationships between children. :/
But you seem to think that informing children that homosexual relationships exist and at the same time telling kids not to be jerks to people like that is somehow “encouraging” such relationships, when that’s simply not the case.
Also, Jack could you explain why you wouldn’t want your kids to have Catholicism imposed upon them?
I want my kids to have the freedom to come to their own conclusions about the world. That includes any spirituality they might choose to express, along with making their own decisions regarding romantic feelings towards others they may develop.
BUT BEING INFORMED ABOUT A CERTAIN BELIEF SYSTEM OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING FORCED TO ADOPT A CERTAIN BELIEF SYSTEM OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE. DUH.
I think the translation explanation of effeminate is correct.
“Trying to tell kids that it’s not evil to be gay is not the same thing as trying to make the kids gay.”
No one said it was. Telling kids that homosexual sex is not evil is the same thing as telling them that homosexual behavior is the same as heterosexual behavior. That, at the very least, it can be good in the right context (whether that marriage or commitment or when someone is super hot, depending on the values of the individual regarding sex).
You realize that in some states and districts they let kids be excused for school hours for “Bible school”, Tyler? I would LOVE to see the hyperventilating if kids were excused from school to go to a “gay school”.
—
Jack, public school is “gay school.” In fact, our entire culture has become “gay school.” PP is “gay school”; Hollywood has become “gay school.” Seriously, I don’t know world you are living in sometimes Jack. Have you turned on the TV recently – from GLEE to the New Normal, etc….
I want my kids to have the freedom to come to their own conclusions about the world. That includes any spirituality they might choose to express, along with making their own decisions regarding romantic feelings towards others they may develop.
—
I know what you mean and I can relate to this sentiment. My only issue with the sentiment is that I have to temper it with reality. I know other people will be influencing my children and that they are not really “free” in the sense that both you and I would like. True freedom is not possible in this world. In this world, people are always susceptible to peer influence in my opinion.
” Jack, public school is “gay school.” In fact, our entire culture has become “gay school.” PP is “gay school”; Hollywood has become “gay school.” Seriously, I don’t know world you are living in sometimes Jack. Have you turned on the TV recently – from GLEE to the New Normal, etc….”
http://imgur.com/T3MNbkO
I don’t know what world you are living, so we are equal in that regard. The existence of LGBT tv shows and characters is a different subject, unless you’re suggesting that shouldn’t be allowed than I don’t get the point of bringing it up.
Public school isn’t “gay school’. Teaching that homosexuality exists, that the people who live that “lifestyle” aren’t bad people and don’t deserve to be treated poorly isn’t the same as trying to make kids gay or convert them into hedonism or whatever you think.
BUT BEING INFORMED ABOUT A CERTAIN BELIEF SYSTEM OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE IS NOT THE SAME AS BEING FORCED TO ADOPT A CERTAIN BELIEF SYSTEM OR SEXUAL PREFERENCE.
====
I think you missed my post where I explained that I was not talking about being enforced to adopt a sexual preference but about being enforced to accept a view that homosexuality is not a sin, and that homosexual acts are good and acceptable behaviour.
For example, the enforcement of the idea that homosexual acts are normal and ok for consenting adults and presenting that message to your kids is a value enforcement.
Most of those shows ridicule and mock traditional families and traditional values. Jack we don’t live in a neutral world. Why do you insist that we should pretend they we do?
I beginning to think you are not as neutral as I first thought. Just a lot more subtle.
“Teaching that homosexuality exists, that the people who live that “lifestyle” aren’t bad people and don’t deserve to be treated poorly isn’t the same as trying to make kids gay or convert them into hedonism or whatever you think.”
It is starting to seem like Jack. There doesn’t seem to be any middle ground on this subject. Either society rejects homosexuality or it goes into hedonism – sort of what Masha and those at the Sydney Writers Festival want.
Uh, so when did the atheist gay cabal stop by your house, tape your eyes open, and force you to watch those shows? When did they kidnap your kid and pull a Clockwork Orange reeducation on him with those shows? Lol. If you don’t like what a particular show is, don’t watch it. Not that hard. I don’t let my kids watch that religious Veggie Tales at my house, but I don’t complain about the existence of them. Jeez man.
I have never even pretended to be “neutral” on the subject of gay rights and acceptance of them as people.
Here is Dan Savage, the gay sex columnist on monogamy. He doesn’t just say monogamy is no good for gay couples but for heterosexual couples as well – no mention of kids - it is the most confused rambling ever:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8SOQEitsJI&NR=1&feature=fvwp
“If you don’t like what a particular show is, don’t watch it.” – agreed,
“Not that hard. I don’t let my kids watch that religious Veggie Tales at my house, but I don’t complain about the existence of them. Jeez man.”
You just complained Jack. Do you see what I mean by subtle?
“Not that hard. I don’t let my kids watch that religious Veggie Tales at my house, but I don’t complain about the existence of them. Jeez man.”
You just complained Jack. Do you see what I mean by subtle?
No he didn’t. Your notion of complaining is waaay off.
I don’t give a flying fig about anything that Dan Savage has to say, I think he’s fairly bigoted and not as rational as he thinks he is.
” You just complained Jack. Do you see what I mean by subtle? ”
What are you talking about? I don’t complain about the existence of shows I don’t like or don’t want my kids to watch at my house (though my ex does let them watch what she wants and I don’t have control over that). Saying “not my thing” is not the same thing as saying “omg this exists and because I don’t like it, it shouldn’t exist!”.
Tbh I dislike Veggie Tales more because that baby asparagus has a voice that is like nails on a chalkboard to me, has much less to do with the religious influence lol. Same reason I finally stopped letting them watch Dora so much, I had urges to shoot the tv because the stupid map song drove me crazy.
I am fortunate enough to have never seen an episode of Dora, but I did help manage a live entertainment touring show that included a segment devoted to Dora. When it came through NYC I finally stopped in to see it, at a huge NYC venue. I sat at the sound mixing board, which is positioned out in the audience, usually at the back but sometimes, in large venues, in the middle, with the seats behind it blocked off.
I can tell you right now, Swiper is the biggest deal ever, basically. Dora’s skit was the “main event” of the show, and as they got to that part the little emcee came out onstage and was like “If we all scream REALLY LOUD, maybe Dora will come out and play!” and oh my goodness, I thought I was going to die. But even that didn’t compare to Swiper sneaking onstage.
I can also tell you that when you maybe stayed out a few minutes too late the night before, and shouldn’t have had that last beer, and then you are surrounded on all sides by screaming children, not to mention two tiers of balconies full of screaming children layered directly above you…well, it’s not really the best introduction to Dora that you can ever have. That theater had a seating capacity of over 6000. So yeah, not a fan of Dora, on principle. ;)
Jack, thanks for explaining your perspective. As you can tell from my posts, I wasn’t sure where you were from coming from. Now I have a clearer picture/understanding of how you see this issue. For some reason I was confused about where you stood on this issue.
Dan Savage : Gay
Tyler : Straight
I don’t pretend to make any sort of value judgements on the activities of consenting adults. “Okay between consenting adults” is not the same as saying something is “good”. I don’t want to sit outside Mr. Bobby Smith and Mrs. Wendy Smith’s bedroom window at night, wringing my hands over the fact that the couple recently decided to invite Mrs. Smith’s co-worker into their bedroom for a three-way because they thought it would be fun to “swing”. It’s not my job to police their bedroom habits, it may not be my bag, but I don’t really give a flip, either. It might be the best thing that ever happened to their relationship, or it might cause them to divorce next year. It’s not my place to say so, I don’t really care, and I’m not keeping a scorecard of the different kinds of trysts consenting adults might choose to have between each other and their ranking of acceptability according to my own personal sensibilities.
I think you missed my post where I explained that I was not talking about being enforced to adopt a sexual preference but about being enforced to accept a view that homosexuality is not a sin, and that homosexual acts are good and acceptable behaviour.
Anyone is welcome to think homosexuality is a sin. Anyone is welcome to teach their kids that homosexuality is a sin. Nobody is forcing anyone else to accept homosexuality as “good”. I’m personally neutral on it, emotionally. From a logical standpoint, I oppose it because it precludes continuation of a given genetic line which seems counter to what the biological “meaning of life” is. But guess what? IT’S NONE OF MY FLIPPIN’ BUSINESS, and the people who experience such inclinations might seem logically unsound in their chosen method of coitus, but are just as “acceptable” on the whole as any other intimate pairing between consenting adults. Meaning simply, I have no say/input/opinion on the matter, nor do I care to inject.
For example, the enforcement of the idea that homosexual acts are normal and ok for consenting adults and presenting that message to your kids is a value enforcement.
It’s not an “enforcement” of anything. Presenting an idea to someone isn’t an “enforcement”.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnpTcrtsN3U
Lol Alexandra, Swiper is the biggest deal ever. My daughter hides under the kitchen table and yells at him when he comes on the tv.
If someone wants to create a New World Order, I firmly believe all they would have to do is have Dora tell the kids to go along with it. Seriously, that show is addictive to the kids.
xalisae, I understand your position…but, as you know, I don’t agree with it. I think it is your business to act or speak up especially when those consenting individuals are your loved ones. If you thought homosexuality was not good, you would not be ok with it – you are too passionate of a person. You would be the last person to sit idly by while someone you cared for did something you thought was harmful to themselves(and that is one of your better qualities).
Lol Navi I saw that Dora movie trailer a while back and died laughing. Still dying, it’s like the funniest thing ever.
I am glad that you (Jack, Alexandra, xalisae) acknowledge that Catholics and Christians are caring people. It makes for much saner and polite conversations.
Some Catholics and Christians are very caring people. It would just be a denial of reality to deny this, and pretty bigoted.
Nope. I’m actually quite capable of not giving two squirts about what an adult does-even one a relative or loved one-that doesn’t affect me. I have all the fire and passion about this subject that I would if I found out my brother were painting his house day-glo orange. It might even lower his property values, but it’s his freakin’ house. And that’s a “good” color to paint his house, if he likes that color. I don’t like that color, so to me and for me it would be a “bad” color, but it’s not my house!
Well you have just hit on my biggest pet peeve in the whole wide world, xalisae: HOAs! I have never lived in one and hopefully never will, but lots of my friends are in them and are not allowed to do stuff like line-dry their freaking clothes, much less grow vegetables or compost. I’d rather live next door to a day-glo orange house than have some neighbor telling me how I can and cannot dry my sheets, or that my tomatoes can’t come from the dirt I own.
Which is pretty close to my views on homosexuality. I’d rather live next door to a couple of gay dudes than have someone asking me about the various forms of “sodomy” I do or do not practice, and what my grandmother would say if I talked to her about them.
” Which is pretty close to my views on homosexuality. I’d rather live next door to a couple of gay dudes than have someone asking me about the various forms of “sodomy” I do or do not practice, and what my grandmother would say if I talked to her about them.”
Amen. I have trouble dealing with people who are so, so interested in personal stuff that’s really none of their business. I’d rather live next door to a nice Christian family who leaves my personal life be than a loudmouth anti-theist who is up in my grill because I own a Bible or whatever. I would rather live next to a gay couple than someone who thinks it’s their business if I were to have a fling or something. It’s just… blech.
Actually I did have a neighbor when I was in my last place, while I was still married, who was nice enough but thought that everything that she could hear my family do through the walls/see through the windows/whatever was her business. She honestly was trying to help and had good intentions but it was really creepily invasive. I’m glad I don’t live next to her anymore.
lol Jack. One time I had a really crazy-old Italian woman as a neighbor, I mean like she was seriously old-country and spoke little English. Every time my boyfriend and I went on a vacation she would find us in the hallway as we returned and say, “Vacation? You make babies? You liiiiiike make babies, yes?” She would do it to all the young couples in the building. hahaha I miss her. She was great. She grew vegetables and always gave us tons of tomatoes.
At the apartment I just moved from, I lived next door to another old woman who definitely knew EVERYONE’S business. She couldn’t near anything in my apartment, because it was a pre-war building with good soundproofing, but she could hear me coming and going in the hallway, and she always seemed to have a running schedule of when I’d left or returned. I figured it was kind of nice to know that someone would call the police if I just vanished, lol. I loved that apartment and those neighbors, though. My floor had five apartments, all clustered around a single landing, and everyone would just open their doors at night and share dinner if they had any to spare, etc, and the kids (two of the five apartments had young kids) would just kind of roam between all the apartments. Two of the apartments spoke only Spanish but it never really seemed to matter; everybody knew enough of the basics to get by and what couldn’t be said in words could always be said in facial expressions. From about 5pm-8pm it was impossible to get any peace and quiet, even if you kept your door shut, but it was such a nice homey kind of communal place that I never minded. Also I had a pianist who lived above me and the sound, traveling through the legs of the piano into his floor/my ceiling, would basically get piped into my apartment. It was lovely. Even when he quite obviously was giving lessons to kids. :P
Man, I miss that place. Now I have a new apartment, with a balcony and a garden of my own. I’m trying to grow tomatoes in my little garden plot and the first one I eat, I will dedicate to my crazy old Italian neighbor Carmella.
Lol Alexandra, nosy old ladies. I know my neighbor wasn’t trying to annoy me or be invasive but I couldn’t stand it. Especially since my marriage was (obviously) quite rocky and she would tell me all the time what to do about it. And what is with the nosy old ladies trying to get everyone to have more kids? Marie suggested once we have a child every year so we would be too tired to fight, lol. This was after we had two kids in two years, and my daughter was only a couple months old. “You need to get busy and get her pregnant again, young man! Women only act like that when they aren’t busy with babies!”. Yeah, thanks for that advice.
I want my kids to have the freedom to come to their own conclusions about the world. That includes any spirituality they might choose to express, along with making their own decisions regarding romantic feelings towards others they may develop.
Had I let my kids come to their own conclusions about the world, they would have chose chocolate cake for supper some nights and ice cream the other nights. They would have never done their homework, taken a bath, or apologized to their siblings. The boys would probably be viewing pornography daily and my daughter would be tolerating bullying friends and partying on weekends.
My kids would still not be baptized or confirmed nor would they attend Mass or volunteer with church groups. After all, they didn’t have driver’s licenses to get themselves to church if they wanted to go and they sure in the heck would have never went if I allowed them to sleep in.
Unless you start going to church and making your children attend church with you, X, the odds are they will make the same choice you have made in regards to church attendance.
My children know who is the parent in my home. If my kids were able to come to their own conclusions about the world, spirituality, and romantic feelings, what the heck would they need me for? I guess to cook for them and do their laundry.
X’s daughter is a Christian. You can allow your children to find their own way spiritually while still guiding them in what you think is moral and right, imo.
“Marriage has already been labeled and defined and doesn’t need to be re-labeled. Call committed homosexual unions whatever you want but leave the word ‘marriage’ out of it.” – marriage doesn’t belong to the church, it belongs to society. It will be what various societies decide it is at various times. The church did not invent marriage. Societies throughout history have had different interpretations of marriage, including same-sex marriage. At this point in time an increasing number of societies are deciding that marriage is a consensual agreement between two consenting adults.
“Unless you start going to church and making your children attend church with you,” – why do you force your children to attend church?
Praxedes you sound like a very caring mother. I think your children will appreciate the initiative and work of love you have undertaken on their behalf.
type.
delete.
must. resist. feeding. the. troll.
Thanks, Tyler.
Raise ’em up right and all that. . . .
Hi Praxedes I don’t know if ever mentioned this to you but I read the book you suggested a while ago.
Would nobody have a problem if it if X or I refused to allow our children to go to church, even if they are teens and have converted? If we refused to let our kids read the Bible if they wanted? Not being snarky, just curious.
I wouldn’t have a problem with that Jack, but that’s probably predictable.
I think that there should be an age restriction on religion similar to things like driving and consuming alcohol.
From memory, you’re in Florida? I see that a lady who stood for mayor in North Miami whose posters said she was endorsed by jesus christ came 7th out of 7 candidates, with 0.83% of the vote.
http://i.imgur.com/uTC2EdZ.jpg
“I wouldn’t have a problem with that Jack, but that’s probably predictable.
I think that there should be an age restriction on religion similar to things like driving and consuming alcohol.”
Nah, minors have freedom of religion too, imo. I hated being forced to go to that crazy church as a child and teen and I wouldn’t either force or refuse to let my children attend church services of their choice. I’ll tell them my opinion on the religion, though.
” From memory, you’re in Florida? I see that a lady who stood for mayor in North Miami whose posters said she was endorsed by jesus christ came 7th out of 7 candidates, with 0.83% of the vote.”
Lol that lady, forgot about her. I don’t live in North Miami but I remember hearing about her. I wonder how Jesus let her know that she was the chosen one, as opposed to the other Christian candidates.
Jack,
If you had reason to believe that attending church would be damaging to your child, it would be reasonable to restrict that activity. For example, I believe that attending mass weekly is enriching to my son’s soul and that regularly missing mass is hurtful to his soul. Furthermore, I believe that choosing to avoid mass is hurtful to any Confirmed Catholic. Therefore, it would be destructive to allow my child under the age of 18 to miss mass.
Similarly, if you had cause to believe that your son or daughter were being damaged by attending a church of some sort, it would be your right as his or her parent to say no when they wanted to go. Honestly, you would have the right regardless of why but you would have the responsibility if your reason was that attendance was damaging. I might disagree with you, but I would not disrespect your right. That’s what being the parent is about. Though I will admit that if I met an 18 yo who wanted to go to mass but her parents didn’t approve, I would probably be willing to provide transportation and risk her parents’ wrath.
Thanks for the thoughtful reply, MaryRose. Your point of view certainly makes sense, and it’s fair. I just think that freedom of religion is a pretty fundamental right, so I can’t see myself ever telling my kids they aren’t allowed to go to church or not go to church. I was just curious if people would think it’s fine to force children to go to church, but would think it’s wrong to prevent it.
Jack,
My opinion is not the only one on this thread, I’m sure. As an ever-struggling-but-trying-to-be-faithful Roman Catholic, I place attending Mass as more important than attending school. As school is a mandatory for us, it is that much more important for us to attend Mass on Holy Days of Obligation. Some people would probably tell you that denying your children church should be illegal. I think in an ideal world it wouldn’t be a consideration, but in the real world, it is your parental right & responsibility to determine what is and is not an acceptable influence in your son or daughter’s life.
It really sounds like you struggle greatly with your past, and that you have trouble of the “throwing the baby out with the bathwater” variety. I applaud your willingness to consider the beliefs and opinions of the Christians on this site with respect. I hope that, over time, you continue to find healing from your past and are able to find forgiveness for those who have wronged you. I respect the fact that although much of what we says probably reminds you of the opinions of those who made your childhood a difficult one, you do not often allow yourself to respond as such, and are generally quick to correct yourself when it does happen. Just my two cents.
Jack, I don’t think I can improve upon Mary Rose’s answer to your question. I agree that as a Parent you have the responsibility to look out for your child and check out the organizations, churches, people, behaviour etc… your child is hanging out with or engaging in….as you know this gets adjusted for each child, and as each child ages….
Jack it is on the basis of parental rights that I think parents should have the right to decide when and how and if matters of sexuality (including homosexuality) get discussed. The State’s interest in usurping the educational role on matters of sexuality is not sufficient to warrant that it does so. If the State shouldn’t get involved with abortion (due to Roe), it definitely shouldn’t be involved with sex education. Also, the State’s support of abortion clearly shows it doesn’t understand human sexuality and is, therefore, a terrible choice to be a sex-ed teacher.
Thank you MaryRose. I do my best not to be a total jerk, and apologize when I do a bad job. Certain subjects are just “triggering” so to speak.
I’m just really glad you guys can’t see the comments I have to rewrite a couple times before I submit them, lol.
In a certain sense, due to the State’s endorsement of abortion it is has abdicated its responsibility to children for all time until they restore the right to life. The state has forfeited its obligation and duty to speak on matters related to children.
Next time you go on one of your “Jack” rants I will give you a wide berth.
it is on the basis of parental rights that I think parents should have the right to decide when matters of sexuality (including homosexuality) get discussed. The State’s interest in usurping the educational role on matters of sexuality is not sufficient to warrant that it does so.
This! Can’t like this enough!
“Next time you go on one of your “Jack” rants I will give you a wide berth.”
Lol! I don’t think I’ve ever said anything on this blog at least that was THAT bad.
Next time you go on one of your “Jack” rants I will give you a wide berth.
On second reading – this doesn’t sound too nice. It was meant to be nice. I hope you get the point – I’ll try to be more understanding.
Thanks Mary Rose – but I was just processing stuff you and Jack said when I wrote it.
Lol I got what you meant, Tyler, I didn’t take it the wrong way. I was just teasing you.
“The State’s interest in usurping the educational role on matters of sexuality is not sufficient to warrant that it does so.” – the state has the qualified personnel and the necessary resources to provide factual and appropriate information on human sexuality.
The alternative is doctrine and misinformation.
“Also, the State’s support of abortion clearly shows it doesn’t understand human sexuality and is, therefore, a terrible choice to be a sex-ed teacher” – that is, of course, a matter of opinion. Subjective. I disagree.
the state has the qualified personnel and the necessary resources to provide factual and appropriate information on human sexuality.
Were you thinking of the teenagers/planned parenthood employees dressed up as vaginas when you wrote this?
Tyler says:
Were you thinking of the teenagers/planned parenthood employees dressed up as vaginas when you wrote this?
Best comment of the day!
Are you able to provide me with a list of schools where PP employees dressed in vagina costumes participated in school sex-ed classes Tyler?
For your unedifying reading displeasure:
https://www.jillstanek.com/2012/08/photos-planned-parenthoods-idea-of-mainstream-american-women/
here are some others:
https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/03/pro-life-video-of-the-day-canadian-mp-interrupted-by-pro-abortion-protesters/
https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/03/inaccurate-female-genitalia-display-to-counter-accurate-abortion-display/
What is it about my question that you appear to have failed to understand Tyler?
Here are some more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7XR9yH2ETk
https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/04/ny-times-washpo-reject-ad-showing-planned-parenthood-sex-ed-images/
Reality, does PP seem like a mature and responsible sex educator to you?
Are you embarrassed yet of the immaturity of your fellow pro-choicers?
The first link is a propaganda video.
The second is an attempt to conflate the fact that some images may be deemed unsuitable in a newspaper accessible by anyone yet fine in the applicable context and environment.
And still you fail to answer my question.
“does PP seem like a mature and responsible sex educator to you?” – yes, particularly as they only provide information approved by the relevant and qualified school authorities at times deemed appropriate by those same authorities.
“Are you embarrassed yet of the immaturity of your fellow pro-choicers?” – your accusation of immaturity is subjective and I don’t agree with it.
I know you don’t like the idea of comprehensive sex-ed but you are coming from a position of doctrine not facts.
I have to lol a little bit…My daughter asked me to attend church services in order to witness her baptism, only a year or two ago, and I went happily! XD
I really don’t mind her spirituality. I think she should give it a little more meditation and search her heart a little deeper to make certain it isn’t superficial, but I’m glad she has the outlet. And why, oh why, would someone equate me wanting my children to actually give rational thought of their own to any given topic to me providing ZERO guidance to them whatsoever?! That’s a leap, right there.
” the state has the qualified personnel and the necessary resources to provide factual and appropriate information on human sexuality.
The alternative is doctrine and misinformation.”
I couldn’t disagree more profoundly. Parental rights are paramount to a child’s education regarding human sexuality, with respect to the child’s rights, of course. I disagree with Tyler’s assessment of human sexuality. I would not want Tyler providing guidance for my children regarding human sexuality. I at least know Tyler somewhat from our internet back-and-forth. Why in freaking BLAZES would I trust my child being informed about human sexuality to someone who I might never even interact with AT ALL and who I know basically nothing about besides which meaningless documentation they’ve been provided by “The State”? I don’t think we should leave the discussion of intimacy to strangers. It just seems to run counter to good protocol to involve strangers in intimacy, does it not?
I was speaking in the main about the factual aspects of human sex xalisae. I know this requires a modicum of intimacy type aspects but overall I think its a better outcome than simply leaving it up to parents. As an example, young people need to be aware that homosexuality exists, what defines it, and that while some people consider it a ‘sin’, many others don’t.
It’s like teaching subjects such as biology or geology. Schools need to teach facts because we know some children will only be taught creationism at home.
In both instances, children need to be taught the factual aspects. Then they are subject to their parents ideas. Hopefully they can make a sensible decision for themselves.
Reality,
Do you believe that PP has shown their ability to teach facts without inserting personal agenda/propaganda to our children?
Yes MaryRose. If they should happen to do so then they should be pulled up by the school authorities.
Reality, what are the “facts” with homosexuality? First of all, it has nothing at all to do with human reproduction and sexuality in the proper sense of the word! Aside from that fact, you or the state or even Jack or xalisae pr any other pro-homosexual person is going to be spinning the “facts” of homosexuality. You’ll want or need to equate homo”sexuaulity” (imprecisely called) with “love” in order to associate it with human reproduction somehow or something. It is a lot of bs and not facts at all. Go listen to Dan Savage talk about “sex”: and you’ll see that I am saying nothing different than what he has said. He discusses gay “sex” like the raunch and “play” that it is. Try listening without your pro-homosexual ears. He will sound completely different and a little shocking and you probably won’t giggle as much.
Jack, even never answered my question as to what the “facts” are about homosexuality? And he is the best pro-homosexual person I have heard talk about the subject. He talked around it but didn’t answer it. Will your “facts” include the fact that gay men have increased chances of getting and passing on STDs, etc…? Will it include other negative “facts” about homosexuality? Or is all going to be spin?
xalisae, nor would I want you or reality teaching my children about sex. Just like you have no idea how I would educate my children, I have no idea how you or Reality would educate my child – and that it is why it is best left to parents.
Also, xalisae it was unnecessary to refer to me in your post to Reality. You could’ve and probably should’ve picked another example.
Reality, will you or the state talk about the “fact” that in order for homosexuals to biologically reproduce they either have to have an initial relationship with an opposite sex person, or go outside their “monogamous” relationship, or be involved in some highly unethical technological methods of reproduction, such as IVF or surrogacy, that can and often does destroy other human beings. Will these facts be discussed or will they be spun?
Upon reflection, I think the GOP might want to consider transitioning their lingo from “family values” to “parental rights.” So along with religious rights, and gun rights, the GOP could be known as the party of and for rights. Just a little consistency in themes. Also, perhaps move away from “traditional” marriage to “natural” marriage. I watched some show that explained that this is a more accurate description that explains the existence of opposite-sex marriage exists in all other countries: because it is natural.
The Democrats are the undisputed masters of the “dog whistle” and the GOP needs to learn from them!!!!
Reality, here, along with the millions of aborted babies, is the end result of PP style sex-education:
https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/03/saved-sick-abortion-battles-baby-killing-video-they-tried-to-delete/
As long as conservative in the GOP and elsewhere don’t get into/discuss the specifics and explicit details of the sterile nature of gay and lesbian sex – as explicit as Dan Savage – conservatives risk losing the marriage debate. The facts on this topic are on the side of conservatives if they can get by all the giggling, and snickering done by the so-called progressives. The devil is in the details, as they say.
Sorry for the multiple posts.
Homosexuals “play” at sex, while Heterosexuals have sex. This distinction is more than words, but the distinction in words matters!
I can’t believe I have to say this but here it goes: Reality, for heterosexuals there is the real and fundamental consequence that a life, a human being, can be produced by their sexual activity. This fact should be respected and not laughed at, or mocked.
I have to lol a little bit…My daughter asked me to attend church services in order to witness her baptism, only a year or two ago, and I went happily! XD
So you and your daughter have regularly attended church since her baptism? Or does she need to ask every time she wants to attend? Were any parental vows stated at her baptism?
Sometimes our children lead us.
Dan Savage often accuses or suggests or makes the point that heterosexuals changed the definition of marriage 60 years ago. Well… homosexuals have tried to and continue to try to change the definition of sexuality!
Praxedes, I used to attend church (and church-related weekday evening activities) as a kid/teenager even though my parents did not. Usually I would carpool with a friend, whose parents would come pick me up, since they all went to that church and it was only maybe 10 minutes out of their way to get me, but if they couldn’t take me for some reason, my parents would drive me there. They just wouldn’t go to the service. They’d go and have breakfast at the diner or something like that. At the time, church was very important to me, and they respected that even while it was not important to them.
Sex for heterosexuals has a seriousness that “sex” for homosexuals will never have. It seems obvious now that many homosexuals have a problem appreciating this fact and some even seem to resent it.
I don’t wring my hands about anyone’s sex life. I wring my hands about the imposition of value judgments about that sex life in public schools and through redefinition of public institutions. I don’t “give a flip” either and am certainly not stopping anyone from doing it (I oppose sodomy laws) nor holding it against them in our relationships (*gasp* this bigot has gay friends).
Why does sex ed need to include ANY value judgments. Why can’t it be a discussion of biology, the facts of pregnancy, the facts of stds and risks of sexual behavior and NO DISCUSSION at all about “this is normal, this is healthy, this is good, some people think this is not good” blah blah. What interest, what possible interest, does the state have in affirming people (especially kids) in ANY of their sexual behaviors. Teach the facts and leave the values to the parents.
Reality,
LOL Have you actually read or watched any of the materials PP uses to teach sex ed?
Talking with the trolls. Must.stop.banging.head.against.wall.
Why does sex ed need to include ANY value judgments. Why can’t it be a discussion of biology, the facts of pregnancy, the facts of stds and risks of sexual behavior and NO DISCUSSION at all about “this is normal, this is healthy, this is good, some people think this is not good” blah blah. What interest, what possible interest, does the state have in affirming people (especially kids) in ANY of their sexual behaviors. Teach the facts and leave the values to the parents.
I’m pretty sure I said I agree with that statement before in this thread.
Alexandra, it’s great when a child makes a decision about church on their own but more often than not church will not “stick” if they don’t have the support of those they love and who love them. Some use it as a social time to get together with friends rather than learn.
There are kids that are baptized and then you don’t see them again until they, or their parents, want them to participate in First Holy Communion. The next stop is Confirmation as a teen and the parents get all upset, which trickles down to the child, if you question what the children know about Christianity. They haven’t met any of the minimum requirements yet want everyone to jump to get them caught up to speed.
I fully believe everyone should be welcome at all times but it isn’t fair to call out a Chreaster if you are doing much of the same in your own life. I think children want and respect guidance when it comes to matters of faith and spirituality.
Excellent post Praxedes. Yes, I agree. I think kids deserve to learn about faith and spirituality and to be guided in spiritual matters. I think it is essential. Spirituality is a huge part of being human and it is not talked about nearly enough in mainstream culture. Mainstream culture has an obsession with talking about sex not spirituality. It would be great if instead of having popular “sex columnists” we had popular “spiritual columnists” – and not only of the Deepak Chopra variety.
I really think many of our societal ills is due to the spiritual black holes in the lives of everyone. Some people recognize this but not as many as I would’ve thought.
I had very little faith growing up so I find it hard to relate to those kids and adults who feel they got a bum wrap by being “indoctrinated.” I can’t relate to wanting to give up such rich hopes and aspirations for what, in my opinion, is the fiction of a nothingness. To me, it seems like going backwards. Why accept so much darkness when you don’t have to? Yes Catholicism/Christianity has a lot of morals but it is also has the resurrection of a crucified God, a universal Church, the Holy Spirit, a spiritual teaching office, and a good number of holy people.
It needs to be said again because it blows my mind: a resurrected crucified God.
lol, I cannot believe Tyler just insinuated that non-procreative intercourse lacks “seriousness”. I’ll be sure to pass this on to elderly couples and otherwise infertile couples. They’ll be interested to learn that their marriages are shams, their intimacy is illegitimate and any physical sharing of themselves between each other carries no emotional significance but is “just for fun”. *snicker*
“xalisae, nor would I want you or reality teaching my children about sex. Just like you have no idea how I would educate my children, I have no idea how you or Reality would educate my child – and that it is why it is best left to parents.”
Great. And I agree wholeheartedly with you, as I’ve stated previously. I wouldn’t want “Reality” attempting to educate my children about sex/intimacy/relationships, either. I don’t see why you seem to have gotten so offended and defensive about this statement. I completely understand the fact that you wouldn’t want me teaching your children about sex/intimacy/relationships either, and I have no problem with that.
Alexandra, it’s great when a child makes a decision about church on their own but more often than not church will not “stick” if they don’t have the support of those they love and who love them. Some use it as a social time to get together with friends rather than learn.
And where has anything I’ve said indicated I do not support my daughter in her choice of spirituality? When did Alexandra say her parents didn’t support her in her choice of spirituality?
My parents not only “supported” me in my spirituality, but mandated it for a large portion of my lifetime. Guess what? It didn’t “stick”, and the more I learned about it, the less it “stuck”. I’m talking reading chapters of the Bible every day, being required to memorize a new verse for public recitation once a week…and plenty of independent study. Please tell me how my parents and private school did not support my spirituality and how it is their fault I no longer count myself among a flock. There are kids that are baptized and then you don’t see them again until they, or their parents, want them to participate in First Holy Communion. The next stop is Confirmation as a teen and the parents get all upset, which trickles down to the child, if you question what the children know about Christianity. They haven’t met any of the minimum requirements yet want everyone to jump to get them caught up to speed.
We left Catholic Church right before I started confirmation, but I had decided not to be confirmed, anyway, since I wasn’t really feeling particularly spiritual by that point in my life. I’ve never really been a spiritual person, so it was nice not being forced to make some sort of public dedication that I really didn’t feel committed to myself personally.
We started attending a private church-school that was Pentecostal (because public schools in California aren’t worth squat), and that was where the heavy Bible study began. We were instructed about a lot of different religions, given an analysis of them, and I found myself staying in during a few recesses to be grilled by the teaching staff there and made my best efforts to defend Catholicism as a lone 6th grader. However, all this did was make me consider religion as a whole from outside “the system”, and from that vantage point, it ALL seemed ridiculous to me. The more I studied, the less I believed, not necessarily just in regards to Catholicism, but God/spirituality/religion in general.
I fully believe everyone should be welcome at all times but it isn’t fair to call out a Chreaster if you are doing much of the same in your own life. I think children want and respect guidance when it comes to matters of faith and spirituality.
I’ll call out a “Chreaster” any day of the week. Know why? I am NOT “doing much of the same in [my] own life.” I realized that if I don’t feel it, and don’t believe it, I don’t belong there. And I know that to be true not only for myself, but also for “Chreasters”, too.
“It needs to be said again because it blows my mind: a resurrected crucified God. ”
It just sounds unbelievable to me. Literally.
“I had very little faith growing up so I find it hard to relate to those kids and adults who feel they got a bum wrap by being “indoctrinated.””
Depends on the way that religion is taught and what religion is being taught. Obviously the way I was indoctrinated was cruel and abusive. I knew since I was very little that I was just evil and bad and that God was just waiting for me to screw up again so he could punish me. I thought I was just born evil, that something was just bad about me. If you can’t see how something like that is a “bum rap”, then you must not have much empathy.
But on the other hand, I know people who were treated with respect and kindness while they were raised in whatever religious views that their parents believe. Even if they do not believe as an adult, they still have respect for their parents and their religious beliefs. So, basically it depends on the church and the parents. And as a side note, I think it’s wrong not to teach your children to question all religious beliefs and try to look at them rationally, but that’s something I teach my kids, if people choose to do otherwise it’s not my bag.
Indoctrination can be damaging, denying this is just dumb.
“I can’t relate to wanting to give up such rich hopes and aspirations for what, in my opinion, is the fiction of a nothingness. To me, it seems like going backwards. Why accept so much darkness when you don’t have to? Yes Catholicism/Christianity has a lot of morals but it is also has the resurrection of a crucified God, a universal Church, the Holy Spirit, a spiritual teaching office, and a good number of holy people.””
It’s not about “want”. I “want” to believe that there is some awesome all-loving Creator who loves me and wants me to spend eternity with him. I would like to believe that, a lot. But for whatever reason (maybe I’m missing the “faith” part that makes you people feel what you do and believe what you do) I can’t seem to have “faith”. So I’m stuck with rationality. And rationally I can find much more reasons that a God doesn’t exist. I try to make it make sense but the logical inconsistencies just prick at me. I feel stupid when I pray, because it’s basically just talking to myself. I like the Bible, I’m very fond of Jesus as a moral teacher, but I can’t seem to feel or believe the divine. It’s not a “want”. I don’t “want” to believe that there’s not eternal justice and mercy but I can’t seem to convince myself otherwise.
I don’t “want” to believe that there’s not eternal justice and mercy but I can’t seem to convince myself otherwise.
I kno that feel, bro.
“I’m pretty sure I said I agree with that statement before in this thread.”
I was posting too quickly – the second part was in response to Reality’s view of sex ed and advocacy of PP as the teacher.
lol, I cannot believe Tyler just insinuated that non-procreative intercourse lacks “seriousness”
That is a funny sentence in itself. Sadly, the beginning and ending words of the sentence match-up perfectly to prove my point.
I’ll be sure to pass this on to elderly couples and otherwise infertile couples.
And I am sure they will agree with the statement. You are the one bringing up intimacy, etc. because when people engage in sterile sex they have to sentimentalize or romanticize because it has no inherent meaning. It is simply for enjoyment and physical bonding. Most grown-ups would accept this quite readily, including Mr. Savage.
Tyler :“It needs to be said again because it blows my mind: a resurrected crucified God. ”
xalisae: It just sounds unbelievable to me. Literally.
—
Me too.
I am glad we agree on the parental rights issue though! By the way, I want you to know that I have noticed that you have been very polite in your posts to me, and it is appreciated.
Indoctrination of one’s children seems unavoidable. I take your point that a lot depends on the religion, on the parents, and on how the religion is taught. I can’t even see how Christianity could lead to someone believing they are evil – that is the whole antithesis to Christianity and the Bible. Even if every word of the Bible was read literally it would be hard to see where they could get the idea that their own offspring was evil.
Are you sure they didn’t start thinking you were evil until you were older Jack and did something wrong? Although you are quite precocious! (JJ)
I think Parents should teach their children to be critical and rational, but parents should also introduce them to a spiritual life. I think it is very unhealthy to deny a child a spiritual life.
Children generally have wonderful spiritual lives, and I think it is wrong when parents neuter those spiritual lives.
I am working on my empathy.
” And I am sure they will agree with the statement. You are the one bringing up intimacy, etc. because when people engage in sterile sex they have to sentimentalize or romanticize because it has no inherent meaning. It is simply for enjoyment and physical bonding. Most grown-ups would accept this quite readily, including Mr. Savage.”
Yes, bonding with your spouse is meaningless. Silly.
Yes, bonding with your spouse is meaningless. Silly.
distraction and diversion from the topic. In any event, you can’t equate non-reproductive sex (of any group) with reproductive sex. The two acts are universes apart. To deny that fact is a gross act of intellectual dishonesty.
Please elaborate on the meaning that you find in non-reproductive sex.
“Indoctrination of one’s children seems unavoidable. I take your point that a lot depends on the religion, on the parents, and on how the religion is taught. ”
It’s unavoidable to pass on some of your thoughts and values to your kids, and it shouldn’t be avoided. If you think something is right and good, you should teach it to your children. What I am objecting to is people acting though those of us who refuse to enforce a religious viewpoint on our children are not teaching them anything, are not being supportive of them, and are not doing our jobs as parents.
” I can’t even see how Christianity could lead to someone believing they are evil – that is the whole antithesis to the Christianity and the Bible. Even if every word of the Bible was read literally it would be hard to see where they would get the idea that their own offspring was evil. ”
Well, you’re Catholic. Don’t Catholics believe that people are fundamentally good, or at least all have a fundamental capacity for good? Other denominations of Christianity believe that people are born bad, evil if you will. Some of them are fairly deterministic like my parent’s church was, that some people were just destined to be bad forever. My mom decided apparently before my birth that there wasn’t anything good about me, that I was just one of those missing God’s grace, and she taught me accordingly. And anyway, even if you can’t see that in your readings of the Bible (and I can’t either, really, at least when I read Jesus’s actual words), it’s a fact that people are raised like this.
” Are you sure they didn’t start thinking you were evil until you were older Jack and did something wrong? Although you are quite precocious! ”
Are you seriously blaming me for how my parents treated me? Seriously? Please explain exactly which parts of the abuse were my fault. You know a bit about all of it.
” I think Parents should teach their children to be critical and rational, but parents should also introduce them to a spiritual life. To deny a child a spiritual life I think is very unhealthy. Children generally have wonderful spiritual lives, and I think it is wrong when parents neuter those spiritual lives. ”
I can’t teach what I lack. I can give them the tools to find out for themselves, support them in what they choose for themselves (within reason, I wouldn’t let them join a cult). And plus my kids have one Christian parent who takes them to church on occasion. If they choose to be a Christian, atheist, Buddhist, whatever, it’s fine with me as long as they are good people who treat others with respect and kindness, and are happy.
It’s not about “want”. I “want” to believe that there is some awesome all-loving Creator who loves me and wants me to spend eternity with him. I would like to believe that, a lot. But for whatever reason (maybe I’m missing the “faith” part that makes you people feel what you do and believe what you do) I can’t seem to have “faith”. So I’m stuck with rationality. And rationally I can find much more reasons that a God doesn’t exist. I try to make it make sense but the logical inconsistencies just prick at me. I feel stupid when I pray, because it’s basically just talking to myself. I like the Bible, I’m very fond of Jesus as a moral teacher, but I can’t seem to feel or believe the divine. It’s not a “want”. I don’t “want” to believe that there’s not eternal justice and mercy but I can’t seem to convince myself otherwise.
I would say that praying feels foolish for everyone at the beginning but there are some people who have always had a prayer life so I can only tell you that I too felt very foolish praying at the beginning. The hardest part was I didn’t know what to say or what to ask or what to think about when I was praying. Then I got some prayer books and just started to read other people’s prayer. I found that very helpful. I read some of the prayers in the Bible, some from the Missal, some prayer cards and booklets given to me. Now there are plenty websites devoted to prayer. I found the more traditional prayers better at educating me what prayer was bad - the prayer with the “thou’s” and “thy’s”. Strangely, one of the best prayer writers in Catholicism was St. Thomas Aquinas who is the Saint most noted for his rationality. I also like the prayers of St. Ambrose and, of course, St. Augustine.
Generally, I tended to overthink what faith was – I think something had to “happen” to me, that I had to feel a certain way. It wasn’t until I realize that faith is not a feeling but an act of the will and intellect that I began to believe and understand Christianity. As you know, I am still in the process of learning about my faith. Another key idea for me was learning that faith is a form of knowledge – knowledge of certain events – namely the Gospel – or salvation history. For me, the idea of miracles occurred and happened was an obstacle to believing.
Not blaming Jack.
“Not blaming Jack.”
I have no idea why you would say something like that then. I realize I was a rather terrible child, but I don’t think that made my mother think I was evil (my dad doesn’t think I’m evil, actually, but that’s a whole different situation). People raise difficult children all the time without hating them.
“Please elaborate on the meaning that you find in non-reproductive sex.”
I suppose some people find meaning through the emotional bonding and unitive aspect. I can’t believe you would say differently, because I hear it the most through Catholics and Christians who think sex means something even if no baby is being made.
Generally, I tended to overthink what faith was – I think something had to “happen” to me, that I had to feel a certain way. It wasn’t until I realize that faith is not a feeling but an act of the will and intellect that I began to believe and understand Christianity.
This exactly.
Jackie Onassis once said, “ If you bungle raising your children, I don’t think whatever else you do well matters very much.”
I believe our children are worth searching the Truth for. We only have a small window of time to do the best we can raising them. I can’t express here the guilt I feel about not being proactive when others tried to nudge me in that direction. It definitely was not in the best interest of my children.
You didn’t answer my questions, X, about church attendance. Your posts are filled with how you feel or don’t feel. Regarding church, you might want to fake it until you make it. I think you would be very surprised if you willed yourself to attend church for a time and I think your family would only be the stronger for it.
Please know I say these things out of true compassion and love for you. I know it sounds judgmental to you, but that certainly is not the intent.
The fact that Reality would hate it if you did attend should give you reason for pause. :)
Jack, I hear your point about not wanting to force religion on your children but what about the fact that by not fostering your child’s spiritual life they, most likely, are going to be without a spiritual life. To me, that seems cruel or unfair to them. Our spiritual life is a huge aspect of our human nature.
Jack didn’t your parents believe that your sins, or evil nature, was washed away with baptism? Or did your parents religion not believe in baptism? I was going ask if their decision to call you evil was related to your lack of faith but then I remember you said that this about you from the moment you were born. Were did they get the idea you were evil from? It sounds like they just pulled the idea out of thin air. I know most versions of Christianity believe we are born with original sin but it is usually washed away with baptism. Perhaps you can explain if you understand your parent’s religion.
I realize that this is your experience with religion, but your family story reflects badly on all religions. It really is a shame. It reminds me of the abuse scandal. All of this stuff has no place in religion.
Jack when Catholics talk about the unitive aspect of procreative sex it confines its comments to that type of sexual expression.
I think you be hard pressed to find a sane Catholic arguing that any other sex act is sacred. I don’t know, perhaps it is just me, but I would find it offensive if someone thought that anal or oral sex was sacred. What about you Jack? Do you think anal or oral sex should be considered a sacred or unitive act?
Jack if you find my last question troubling in the least or at all, may I suggest that is the unexplained and unexpected and mysterious (for lack of a better word) light of Christ. Where does this subtle sense come from? I don’t know, but I have to admit it is just there. I can avoid to look at it, but there it remains shining – saying this is the way, not that way, etc…It is unbelievable.
“LOL Have you actually read or watched any of the materials PP uses to teach sex ed?” – yes. And, LOL, I come at it from a rational and factual position, not a doctrinaire one.
“Reality’s view of sex ed and advocacy of PP as the teacher” – and yet I didn’t advocate PP as the teacher.
“Regarding church, you might want to fake it until you make it” – this, I love this!
“The fact that Reality would hate it if you did attend should give you reason for pause. :” – I wouldn’t hate it, I’d just be disappointed.
“Jack, I hear your point about not wanting to force religion on your children but what about the fact that by not fostering your child’s spiritual life they, most likely, are going to be without a spiritual life. To me, that seems cruel or unfair to them. Our spiritual life is a huge aspect of our human nature.”
Not everyone is has that spiritual aspect of their nature, I suppose. Like I said, I can’t teach what I lack. I don’t understand how that can be expected of me. I refuse to lie to my children and believe something I don’t, I don’t think that’s right or fair to them at all. All I can do is give my kids the opportunity to choose to be spiritual or religious if they wish to, and support them the best I can. I don’t think I’m being cruel. I know I’m not a perfect parent but I really don’t think that lying to them would be better than how I handle the religious stuff now.
“Jack didn’t your parents believe that your sins, or evil nature, was washed away with baptism? Or did your parents religion not believe in baptism? I was going ask if their decision to call you evil was related to your lack of faith but then I remember you said that this about you from the moment you were born. Were did they get the idea you were evil from? It sounds like they just pulled the idea out of thin air. I know most versions of Christianity believe we are born with original sin but it is usually washed away with baptism. Perhaps you can explain if you understand your parent’s religion.
I realize that this is your experience with religion, but your family story reflects badly on all religions. It really is a shame. It reminds me of the abuse scandal. All of this stuff has no place in religion. ”
Eh, as far as I understand Protestant-based religions don’t tend to view baptism in the same way that you Catholics do. They seem to see baptism as more symbolic than anything.
But anyway, I told you. My parents’ church was really determinist. They believed that some people were destined to always be sinful. You could tell who was inherently sinful by their actions. If you repeatedly sinned, that might be a sign that you were one of the ones who wasn’t going to be saved, who wasn’t going to be given God’s grace. And I guess my mom’s mental illness caused her to take these lessons to heart, and she had a bad feeling about me before I was born, like I must be one of the graceless. And then I suppose I was an unpleasant baby and a terrible kid, which just confirmed it. My dad encouraged this paranoia she had and hatred, because he had his own reasons. I don’t really think my experience reflects on all religion though. I think it does reflect on what happens when religion gets isolated and mixed with mental illnesses and led by the power-hungry.
Anyway, none of that is important, really. I just brought it up because you said you couldn’t see how indoctrination could be harmful at all, or how forcing religion on someone could be harmful. I believe not giving people the choice of which religion to practice is harmful in many cases, mine included. I won’t do it to my kids. I don’t care how many times you all imply I’m a bad parent.
” I think you be hard pressed to find a sane Catholic arguing that any other sex act is sacred. I don’t know, perhaps it is just me, but I would find it offensive if someone thought that anal or oral sex was sacred. What about you Jack? Do you think anal or oral sex should be considered a sacred or unitive act?”
I don’t really think of things as sacred. I can definitely see how sex acts other than vaginal intercourse could be “unitive”, I suppose. It depends on the people involved and how they feel about them.
It is ok if you don’t want to try to hard to have a spiritual life, you still have a lot of things that you need to work out. Perhaps, at a later time you’ll be more open to it.
What if you said you had faith in Jesus – would’ve your mother accepted you as a person destined for Heaven, forgiven by Jesus? I know a lot of born-again Christian denominations believe that. You simply say you believe and profess Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and you are going to Heaven. Was this a no go for your Mom?
“It is ok if you don’t want to try to hard to have a spiritual life, you still have a lot of things that you need to work out. Perhaps, at a later time you’ll be more open to it. ”
I do try hard to have a spiritual life. I’m just lacking something mentally or emotionally that allows it, I believe. I’m sorry that doesn’t compute, I don’t know how to explain it so that it makes sense to you.
” What if you said had faith in Jesus – would’ve your mother accepted as a person destined to Heaven, forgiven by Jesus? I know a lot of born-again Christian denominations believe that. You simply say you believe and profess Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and you are going to Heaven. Was this a no go for your Mom? ”
They seem to be some weird mix of works based and faith based. They definitely believed that you had to profess belief in Christ, but you also had to show it through not sinning or you would lose your salvation. And they believed that some people are incapable of being saved. They had some weird justifications for their beliefs biblically.
And I did profess belief in Christ as a kid and until I was like fifteen or so I think. Please stop trying to find things I did wrong to cause the issues in my family. I accept I made plenty of mistakes, but I sure didn’t do anything as an fetus or an infant, so I don’t think I made my mom hate me or think I was destined for hell.
I wasn’t trying to find out things you did wrong. I was just trying to understand your parent’s though process. No offence but their attitude towards you was a little bizarre. Jack I know nothing at all about the details of your life, only a few adjectives. In any event, every child deserves the love of their parents and I am sure you did to.
Hell can sound scary – unfortunately for me I was always more worried about disintegrating into nothingness.
I believe a small percentage of women fail to bond with their babies, whether because it’s mental illness or some other factor. Kinda like the prom moms and others who harm their newborns. For some reason, a combination of mental illness and repressive, weird religion, and a creepy evil husband, my mom didn’t have the normal bonding and love for me like most mothers do. When I was a kid I didn’t realize that most moms liked their sons, so I have trouble seeing my mom’s attitude as “bizarre”. It just is.
Did you have to go to therapy? If so, how long were you in therapy?
Sure, couple years on and off. Might help some day.
You’re quite the curious guy Tyler.
Concerned. And just trying to figure out why we bump heads.
I’m fine. I think we bump heads because we simply view the world from completely different viewpoints. Same reason I bump heads with most of the posters here lol.
You didn’t answer my questions, X, about church attendance. Your posts are filled with how you feel or don’t feel. Regarding church, you might want to fake it until you make it. I think you would be very surprised if you willed yourself to attend church for a time and I think your family would only be the stronger for it.
She goes with her grandparents when she summers with them. She’s new to the area here, so we haven’t had the chance to find a church here yet, but once we do, when I’m not working, I will take her if she wants to attend. But between my job and Daddio’s 2 jobs, we haven’t had the chance. But even when I *do* go, and when I *have* gone with her, I don’t “fake” anything. Ever. For anyone. If I can teach my daughter to be true to herself by being an example to her and staying true to MYself, that will be more important than “teaching her spirituality”-which is something I don’t have and therefore cannot teach, anyway.
(Funfact: when I was a kid, I thought maybe in part due to my nose being shaped like an animal’s, perhaps “God” had made a mistake with me and *I* was like an animal myself, born without a “soul”, because I didn’t do “spirituality” and I was told all the time by everyone around me how I should feel about and towards “God”, and I just couldn’t. I thought perhaps I was defective. I still can’t and don’t feel/do/understand spirituality, but I just realized I don’t believe in “souls”, either, and there’s nothing wrong with me. ^_^)
“This above all: to thine own self be true, And it must follow, as the night the day, thou canst not then be false to any man.”
Also:
What part of “I attended church every single Sunday for the first 16 years of my life.” do you not understand? I’ve done the church, I’ve done the Biblical study. I don’t know what more I can tell you, but attempting to “get” the whole “spirituality” thing…that ship has sailed. I’m 32 years old, I have no desire to even attempt it at this point. I’m quite fulfilled as it is, thanks.
TIL you’re failing as a parent and being cruel to your children unless you lie to them about your religious beliefs AND push beliefs on them you don’t believe yourself.
Today I also learned that the same people who freak if you suggest that children should be taught that it’s bad to be mean to gays and that people in nontraditional families love each other, see nothing wrong with judging other parents for choosing what they believe is best for their children’s spiritual lives.
Because I point out that based on my life experiences, there is a better way to live, you take it as judging. You are wrong, Jack. I’ve had your mindset when it comes to issues of faith. Now people like how I used to be judge me for who I am now as a bible-thumping, judgmental cretin.
Guys like Reality would be “disappointed” in you and X if you took that Leap of Faith and found a supportive Christian faith group. I know who HE LETS run his life and it sure isn’t Christ. Christ loves you and wants you to CHOOSE to let him into your life.
I realize you have no “desire”, X. You don’t “feel” like it. I understand. I don’t “feel” like coming here trying to persuade people that really, really dislike me trying to persuade them. There is a Higher Power guiding me to do this.
Christ didn’t “feel” like dying for our sins, either. He didn’t “desire” all the pain and agony He was put through. But he did it anyway.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=H5BxjU2krlY
I’ll leave you alone now. I hope you have a great weekend.
Because I point out that based on my life experiences, there is a better way to live, you take it as judging.
No, because I point out that based on MY life experiences, there is a better way for ME to live MY life. What YOU THINK is “better” for me…is not! How do I know? It’s MY friggin’ life! The fact that you act like you have the market cornered on “best way to live” IS being judgmental, sorry, but it is by definition. You have judged the way you live your life to be “better” than the way I live MY life, and that’s simply not so. We are BOTH living our lives in the ways best FOR US.
And all that crap about Reality is pretty immature. It’s not impossible to comprehend that Reality can be wrong about some things without attempting to completely alter MY life to contrast his. That whole line or reasoning sounds like something I’d tell my kids. “Jay…you know who won’t eat his vegetables? DOCTOR OCTOPUS! You don’t want to be like HIM, do you?!” C’mon. I’m sure Reality isn’t a fan of vehicular homicide either. Perhaps I should start mowing down pedestrians with my vehicle. THAT’LL SHOW HIM! I don’t give a flip if Reality will be disappointed in me or proud of me if I do any given thing. I really don’t care what HE thinks of me, but then again, I don’t care what YOU think of me, either. I don’t live my life for anyone besides my family, and they’re pretty happy with me as-is. :D
Okay, well I don’t think that Reality is the final judge on what’s moral and decent, so I don’t really factor his disappointment into my life decisions. :D
“Because I point out that based on my life experiences, there is a better way to live, you take it as judging. You are wrong, Jack. I’ve had your mindset when it comes to issues of faith. Now people like how I used to be judge me for who I am now as a bible-thumping, judgmental cretin. ”
Well, I don’t care what you thump, Bible or not, and I’ve never called you a cretin or whatever. But you are being judgmental, which is whatever since we all do it. Doesn’t mean I like it. Honestly I’m just tired of you insinuating I’m a bad parent because I don’t parent exactly how you would like. It’s like the people who get mad at me because I’ve never spanked my kids and never will. You’re just wrong. People comment all the time when I’m out and about about what sweet and happy and well-behaved kids I have. I am not anywhere near perfect but I’m not doing the terrible job you seem to think.
I just refuse to lie to my children about my beliefs. They don’t deserve lies from me. When they are older we can discuss why I believe what I do (who knows, maybe my beliefs have changed by then). And I have to laugh at the idea of a “supportive Christian faith group”. Most Christians like me around saying my opinions as much as you and Tyler do.
I’ve told Christ he can come into my heart whenever he’s up to it, doesn’t seem to have happened!
I don’t live my life for anyone besides my family, and they’re pretty happy with me as-is.
I really hope your family is never taken from you or ever becomes unhappy with you.
Honestly I’m just tired of you insinuating I’m a bad parent because I don’t parent exactly how you would like.
I have never said this. If you believe I have insinuated that you’re a bad parent, that’s on you. As parents, we have all made poor choices and I’ll be the first to admit I’ve made many. As I’ve said before, there is no intent on my part, but if you choose to believe I have some sinister plot, I can’t change that. Sorry you’re tired, Jack. You can always choose to skip reading my posts.
You have judged the way you live your life to be “better” than the way I live MY life, and that’s simply not so. We are BOTH living our lives in the ways best FOR US.
As is the thinking of women who choose to abort or abortionists who choose their profession but you point out to them all the time that there are better choices to make. But when I do it on a different topic, I am being judgmental.
Sincere apologies for saying I would leave you all alone; I honestly did not think my last post would bring out what I perceive as anger from you both. I really thought my last post would be the end of it.
I’ll still talk if y’all want to keep going. Otherwise, you can stop replying to my posts.
Btw, I’m not laughing. But you’ve made it clear that you don’t care what I think.
” I have never said this. If you believe I have insinuated that you’re a bad parent, that’s on you. As parents, we have all made poor choices and I’ll be the first to admit I’ve made many. As I’ve said before, there is no intent on my part, but if you choose to believe I have some sinister plot, I can’t change that. Sorry you’re tired, Jack. You can always choose to skip reading my posts.”
You say you haven’t insinuated that X or I are bad parents, but you’re quoting things about screwing up children, implying that because we don’t enforce spiritual things that we aren’t giving them any guidance at all. Can you really be surprised if we take it that way? All parents make mistakes, but you’re acting as though there is only one way to parent. I don’t believe that’s true.
If you could explain why lying to my children about what I believe is preferable to telling them the truth and supporting them in their choices in regards to spirituality, it might be different. People are glossing over that when they tell me I just need to take them to church and raise them Christian regardless of what I think or believe. Isn’t it wrong to lie? It’s impossible to hide your true self for long, don’t you think my kids will have less respect and trust in me as a role model and leader if I lie to them and enforce something I don’t see any real evidence for?
” Sincere apologies for saying I would leave you all alone; I honestly did not think my last post would bring out what I perceive as anger from you both. I really thought my last post would be the end of it.”
I’m not angry at all, just perplexed at this way of thinking. If X or I had said that we were going to ban our children from learning about religious beliefs, or not allow them to go to church, or ban the Bible from being read by them, I can see where you’d object, but I’m seriously nonplussed at the suggestion I just pretend to be something I’m not. I don’t think it benefits my kids to lie. When it’s age appropriate I’m not going to pretend that I never was a drug addict, I’ll be honest about why we don’t see my side of the family, I’ll admit to sleeping around a lot before I was married. I don’t see the benefit of lying about what I’ve done and who I am. I think I’m a much better role model if I use my mistakes and what I actually believe to teach them, not put on a front.
I really hope your family is never taken from you or ever becomes unhappy with you.
They are the people I live my life for. They are not the ONLY reason I live my life, and I also live my life for myself, since I am a member of my family as well. But thanks for the well-wishes.
Just out of curiosity, if you didn’t have your spirituality, would you believe your life wasn’t worth living any longer? :/
As is the thinking of women who choose to abort or abortionists who choose their profession but you point out to them all the time that there are better choices to make. But when I do it on a different topic, I am being judgmental.
If you honestly think a lack of spirituality is on par with killing your own child or killing the children of others for a living, I honestly don’t know what else I can possibly say to you. But yeah, Jack and I shouldn’t be angry with you for some reason. Right.
Just out of curiosity, if you didn’t have your spirituality, would you believe your life wasn’t worth living any longer? :/
As you know, it doesn’t work that way. Human beings have spiritual lives. It is not something they can get rid of; they can only run from it, or cover it up.
Mark 4:21-25
As you know, it doesn’t work that way.
No, I DON’T know that, otherwise, I would probably be more spiritual!
I will admit I’m a little peeved about the “if you think this, that’s on you”. Yes, people are responsible for how they react to what others say, and I will admit I’m quite sensitive to criticisms to my parenting and very sensitive to what I perceive as people judging me. But as much as I am responsible for how I take things, you’re responsible for how you say them. If people aren’t getting what you are saying then you need to find a better way to say it, or maybe reconsider what you’re saying.
No, I DON’T know that, otherwise, I would probably be more spiritual!
Are you telling me that you know why the world was created? Why you exist? What is going to happen when we die? Please fill me in. I have been waiting for the second coming of Jesus but it appears xalisae got here first.
” As you know, it doesn’t work that way. Human beings have spiritual lives. It is not something they can get rid of; they can only run from it, or cover it up.”
I’m 100% tired of this type of thinking. People aren’t *really* non-religious, they are just pretending like the rebellious sinners they are. People aren’t *really* gay or bisexual, they are just choosing to have attractions for some weird, unknown reasons.
I’m 100% tired of this type of thinking. People aren’t *really* non-religious, they are just pretending like the rebellious sinners they are. People aren’t *really* gay or bisexual, they are just choosing to have attractions for some weird, unknown reasons.
Sorry Jack but I have the same questions for you as I have xalisae:
Are you telling me that you know why the world was created? Why you exist? What is going to happen when we die? Please fill me in. These are spiritual questions. I never human being that isn’t in the answer to these questions. If your not, you will be the first.
Furthermore, if I read your comment the way some people have read the comments that Praxedes (I hope you don’t mind) and I have written I would have to assume that you just tried to suggest or imply that you were gay. But that would be an incorrect reading, or bad assumption, right?
” Are you telling me that you know why the world was created? Why you exist? What is going to happen when we die? Please fill me in. These are spiritual questions. I never human being that isn’t in the answer to these questions. If your not, you will be the first. ”
I’m not a theoretical physicist nor a biologist, I don’t even have any theories about why the universe came to be nor why life began. I don’t really care though, that’s “God of the gaps” thinking, that if we don’t know how something happened then it must be spiritual/supernatural. I don’t think like that. I’m perfectly willing for some things to be “unknown” instead of creating a supernatural reason for them. My want for a God to exist has far more to do with what I wish I could have on a personal level rather than anything to do with “big questions”.
I’m not a theoretical physicist nor a biologist, I don’t even have any theories about why the universe came to be nor why life began. I don’t really care though, that’s “God of the gaps” thinking, that if we don’t know how something happened then it must be spiritual/supernatural. I don’t think like that. I’m perfectly willing for some things to be “unknown” instead of creating a supernatural reason for them. My want for a God to exist has far more to do with what I wish I could have on a personal level rather than anything to do with “big questions”.
Jack, you just admitted you have spiritual or religious questions. So your earlier complaint seems unjustified and the assumptions of religious friends were correct.
And for the record these questions are not “God of the gap” questions although many atheistic biologists interpret them that way.
“Furthermore, if I read your comment the way some people have read the comments that Praxedes (I hope you don’t mind) and I have written I would have to assume that you just tried to suggest or imply that you were gay. But that would be an incorrect reading, or bad assumption, right?”
Lol. I’ll just quote George Clooney here: “I think it’s funny, but the last thing you’ll ever see me do is jump up and down saying ‘These are lies!’ That would be unfair and unkind to my good friends in the gay community. I’m not going to let anyone make it seem like being gay is a bad thing.”
” Jack, you just admitted you have spiritual or religious questions. So your earlier complaint seems unjustified and the assumptions of religious friends were correct.”
I have questions, sure. I just don’t care about universal, big questions. I ask you people questions all the time! I’m not every single non-religious person though. Xalisae is fine with no spiritual life, and I don’t tell her that she’s secretly hiding something.
Lol. I’ll just quote George Clooney here: “I think it’s funny, but the last thing you’ll ever see me do is jump up and down saying ‘These are lies!’ That would be unfair and unkind to my good friends in the gay community. I’m not going to let anyone make it seem like being gay is a bad thing.”
Excellent response to a rhetorical question.
“Xalisae is fine with no spiritual life, and I don’t tell her that she’s secretly hiding something.”
Hey, that is not fair Jack. I gave 2 metaphorical reasons for non-believers, not just one.
Yeah. I find the notion that since we don’t have a ready definite answer for any given question, the answer MUST be “Because God, duh!” laughable.
” Hey, that is not fair Jack. I gave the 2 metaphorical reasons for non-believers, not just one. ”
Yeah, you said run from or cover up. Well, X is pretty darn upfront and I don’t think she’s covering it. And she doesn’t run from anything. So… yeah.
Yeah. I find the notion that since we don’t have a ready definite answer for any given question, the answer MUST be “Because God, duh!” laughable.
“Because NO EXPLANATION, duh” is so much better!
“Because NO EXPLANATION, duh” is so much better”
It’s more like “we haven’t found that out yet, duh”. We didn’t used to know every single thing we know now.
So Jack in answer to your question about not wanting to lie to your kids – well, if you don’t know – you could be lying about that too! Life is a mystery – even in the 21st century.
“It’s more like “we haven’t found that out yet, duh”. We didn’t used to know every single thing we know now.”
Jack, does that mean at one point, after acquiring enough knowledge, you think human beings will be gods?
When I don’t know, I say “I don’t know, some people think this, other people think that”.
Yeah, you said run from or cover up. Well, X is pretty darn upfront and I don’t think she’s covering it. And she doesn’t run from anything. So… yeah.
Well, I have seen xalisae cover for you, and everyone wants to run when Reality starts posting.
When I don’t know, I say “I don’t know, some people think this, other people think that”.
I say this as well.
Jack I have no doubt you understand spiritual matters. Freeing yourself from things, such as prostitution and drugs, you understand what true freedom is – the freedom to do good. So you know freedom does not mean lack of will power but quite the reverse. The ultimate freedom – obeying God – requires, quite appropriately, the most will power. I think xalisae knows this as well, but for whatever reason, she is not admitting to it today.
One way to define sin is to love things more than the Creator of those things. Sin is an abuse of the freedom God gives everyone.
How does X cover for me? What have I done that needs covering up? What are you talking about?
“Jack I have no doubt you understand spiritual matters. Freeing yourself from things, such as prostitution and drugs, you understand what true freedom is – the freedom to do good.”
First, when was I ever a prostitute? Lol. And I do agree basically, if you’re basically enslaved to a substance or damaging lifestyle, you’re not really “free”.
“The ultimate freedom – obeying God – requires, quite appropriately, the most will power. I think xalisae knows this as well, but for whatever reason, she is not admitting to it today. ”
Well if say a gay guy “obeys God” by forcing himself to date women and deny how he feels about men, I don’t see how that’s freedom at all.
Tyler,
Jack, does that mean at one point, after acquiring enough knowledge, you think human beings will be gods?
Oh, man. I think I’m gonna have to pull an all-nighter to catch up with this thread.
Actually, Tyler, it’s my belief that that is what the story of the Two Trees is all about. (I’m working on a blog that may miff you and many others. ;) ) The Serpent told a lie followed by a half-truth.
Our destiny is to be Family Members, not to just strum on harps.
“Jack, does that mean at one point, after acquiring enough knowledge, you think human beings will be gods?”
No, I don’t think human beings will be “gods”, unless you’re defining it very strangely.
“Our destiny is to be Family Members, not to just strum on harps.”
It will interesting to read your blog – good teaser. I would say that we already are family members in two ways: first, as human beings and second, and more importantly and in an even more real way, as part of the family of Christ when we are baptized, through the grace of God.
So I guess we all have our take on life and the afterlife – spiritual matters.
Well if say a gay guy “obeys God” by forcing himself to date women and deny how he feels about men, I don’t see how that’s freedom at all.
Jack what is the difference between “men” and “drugs” for these gay man? What made the drugs bad? In my opinion, the drugs are bad because they enslaved the person to their compulsions. In this way, the gay man attracted to men is no different than the drug addict…..as is the heterosexual man who chases after women or who treats his wife poorly, etc… None of these individuals – the drug addict, the gay man, the heterosexual man – are imitating Christ when they let their passions rule the day. Being a Christian takes some humility, in the sense of saying that you are going to let God’s ways be your ways – meaning you will freely submit to following the commandments. You are following your mind rather than your appetites. Once you recognize that your own ways are not good enough than it doesn’t matter whether society thinks following God’s way is freedom – you already know that it is. You are trusting in the principle, not each particular appetite.
“Jack what is the difference between “men” and “drugs” for these gay man? What made the drugs bad? In my opinion, the drugs are bad because they enslaved the person to their compulsions. In this way, the gay man attracted to men is no different than the drug addict…..as is the heterosexual man who chases after women or who treats his wife poorly, etc…”
A man who chases after many different women has some issues, and yes is probably enslaved by his compulsions. A guy who dates/marries one woman isn’t enslaved by anything in regards to his sexuality. Same things for gay dudes, sleeping with a ton of guys is unhealthy and probably means he has compulsion problems, getting a nice boyfriend and a committed relationship doesn’t mean he’s enslaved. The only way you can see it as enslavement, is if you think that being in a homosexual relationship is simply about sex, and not building a life with someone you care about. Or if you have a religious objection, I suppose you can see that as enslavement.
“Being a Christian takes some humility, in the sense of saying that you are going to let God’s ways be your ways – meaning you will freely submit to following the commandments. You are following your mind rather than your appetites. Once you recognize that your own ways are not good enough than it doesn’t matter whether society thinks following God’s way is freedom – you already know that it is. You are trusting in the principle, not each particular appetite. ”
Yep, if you accept the Bible and believe it then this is valid. I get that, and never denied that it is true for those of you who accept that particular code of ethics. Not everyone agrees with that code though, and not all of us see it as noble to deny ourselves a gay relationship if that’s what we’re orientated for, or whatever else is in question.
Tyler is married, so he is obviously enslaved to his desires and sexuality. Just like gay dudes in their committed relationships.
The ultimate freedom – obeying God – requires, quite appropriately, the most will power. I think xalisae knows this as well, but for whatever reason, she is not admitting to it today.
Tyler…I don’t believe there is a God to obey, so I have no idea where you’ve come up with this at all.
“Tyler is married, so he is obviously enslaved to his desires and sexuality. Just like gay dudes in their committed relationships.”
It just hurts my soul that people deny that people who are in homosexual relationships actually care about each other. I know that people don’t see that as “real love”, because real love obviously involves living a lie or denying yourself an intimate relationship forever. But have they ever met a gay couple? They care about each other. Even if you think it’s a sin, and even if you don’t think it’s “equivalent” to “real” relationships, they do care about each other. It’s not all about sex.
Jack if the principle is that we should look to use things for their intended purpose and not abuse those things by misusing them then we need to examine what the proper use or purpose is of certain things or actions. For example. drugs are typically for pain relief. Once a person taking drugs when there is no pain or when the pain has dissipated due to drugs already taken then that person shouldn’t take anymore drugs. If one understands that sex is for procreation (the unitive aspect is not what sex is used for but what is enjoyed) then non-procreative sex can’t provide can’t be right or even truly satisfying, in the sense the goal or purpose is not achieved. So a ”gay” man can’t even sleep with even one man before he has already begun an unhealthy process – he is indulging in something that has no purpose – it is pure play or passion or whatever. (I did not make the rules by the way – that just the way it is.) The good thing in all this is that voice, or any feelings of guilt are not really bad things or signs, they are God’s voice. He is talking, and we should all be grateful when he talks. However, for whatever reason, we typically are not grateful and we humans find it difficult to listen to and follow God’s voice (St. Paul expressed it well in Romans 6:12-23 and Romans 7:15-25). The Bible tries to express the purposes God designed in nature, and human nature. It is code of ethics, but hopefully an organic code of ethics – that grows right out of our human nature, and brings us to what we really want: happiness in this life and the next. There is a struggle, we are in a fight, the Bible is there to encourage us.
Tyler, don’t you ever just play, like with your son or whatever? Not everything has to have a purpose, sometimes it’s just fun and enjoyable, provides stress relief, etc. Not everyone sees sex as this thing that has to mean something deep like creating human life every time.
I get the natural argument. I just don’t agree. I think there is some evidence that things like homosexuality are biological. And I don’t think it’s “unnatural” to express your sexuality the way it is with someone you care about. Nor do I think it’s damaging. Promiscuity, yeah, promiscuity isn’t really good for the body or mind. But dating one person of either sex doesn’t seem to be damaging. Especially if that’s simply how you are.
Jack, hopefully I answered your question. I think I have said this stuff before. Anyway, hopefully God will move and you will begin to see some reasons to try to imitate Christ.
xalisae, good luck on your spiritual journey. I hope you find what you are looking for. (By the way, just saying God doesn’t exist doesn’t mean he doesn’t exist. You just created a Bible with no pages in it.)
Yes, Jack play is fine in the appropriate places. People are too be enjoyed they are not to be used. People are like God from our human perspective, we enjoy God, give thanks for him but we do not use God. Remember there are persons, places and things. You should never treat a person like a thing.
In Queer theory I think the essentialist argument (“the way you are”) has been debunked. Queer theory tends to think sexuality is socially constructed just like gender roles. Most people who use the essentialist argument now due so only for political reasons – especially those who seek “gay” liberation.
xalisae, good luck on your spiritual journey. I hope you find what you are looking for.
I have already, because I’m not looking for anything, Tyler.
Yes, Jack play is fine in the appropriate places. People are too be enjoyed they are not to be used. People are like God from our human perspective, we enjoy God, give thanks for him but we do not use God. Remember there are persons, places and things. You should never treat a person like a thing.
A committed monogamous homosexual couple is no more “using” each other than a parent bonding with their child over play is. Homosexual partners enjoy and give thanks for each other every bit as much as heterosexual partners do in any healthy relationship. That you think they are incapable of doing so only speaks to your lack of knowledge/life experience/what have you.
I don’t really care *why* someone is gay. That’s their business.
“Damaging” is a loaded word. It focuses on the here and now, and basically overlooks the spiritual reasons for not engaging in homosexual activity. The gay person who dates one person may have confined their error, but the error is still taking place. We will never know the ultimate result of these actions until the afterlife, but in the present we can say that these individuals are denying themselves the possibility of having an opposite sex relationship and family, and following a code of ethics that has been endorsed by God.
A committed monogamous homosexual couple is no more “using” each other than a parent bonding with their child over play is. Homosexual partners enjoy and give thanks for each other every bit as much as heterosexual partners do in any healthy relationship. That you think they are incapable of doing so only speaks to your lack of knowledge/life experience/what have you.
xalisae, from my perspective, you have to separate the enjoyment of individuals from the acts that you do with them. It is possible to enjoy most persons as persons. The acts we do must be liked at separately, That is all I have done. For example, it is possible to be a pacifist, but to still enjoy the company of a soldier, even though you think the acts the soldier does are morally wrong.
By the way, why do you keep raising the point that it is “their business.” Are you saying that we are not allowed to discuss the ethics of certain acts?
Perhaps I need to be a Queer Theorist and then I will be allowed to discuss the ethics of homosexuality. If not, I guess we are all supposed to shut-up.
““Damaging” is a loaded word. It focuses on the here and now, and basically overlooks the spiritual reasons for not engaging in homosexual activity. The gay person who dates one person may have confined their error, but the error is still taking place. We will never know the ultimate result of these actions until the afterlife, but in the present we can say that these individuals are denying themselves the possibility of having an opposite sex relationship and family, and following a code of ethics that has been endorsed by God.”
I just can’t see how any loving God would give someone the orientation towards the same sex or both sexes and then punish them for making a life with someone they love. I just think it’s a cruel God who would put someone in the position of lifelong denial. And the followers make it difficult. It’s just a painful thing to know that people “love” you, but hate part of your identity and everything about how you live.
I just can’t see how any loving God would give someone the orientation towards the same sex or both sexes and then punish them for making a life with someone they love. I just think it’s a cruel God who would put someone in the position of lifelong denial. And the followers make it difficult. It’s just a painful thing to know that people “love” you, but hate part of your identity and everything about how you live.
Jack, this misses the point. First, God is always good so what he has planned for people is always good. Second, It doesn’t mean that there won’t be a struggle against sin, but He sent his Son and the Holy Spirit to transform lives. Third, where do you get this lifelong denial stuff? This process is supposed to bring you to your true self, not a denial of self.
” Jack, this misses the point. First, God is always good so what he has planned for people is always good. It doesn’t mean that there won’t be struggle, but He sent his Son and the Holy Spirit to transform lives. Where do you get this lifelong denial stuff? This process is supposed to bring you to your true self, not a denial of self. ”
Pretending that you don’t have an orientation a certain way is denial of self. Lifelong celibacy rather than get into a homosexual relationship is denial of self. Forcing yourself to marry a woman and have kids with her rather than be with a man is denial of self. Orientation is a part of who you are. I don’t know how to explain it so it makes sense to you, since you don’t seem to understand that it is.
Jack, you seem to assume that homosexuality is a permanent part of a person’s identity. This conception of homosexuality has changed over time and culture according to Queer theory. It just doesn’t hold up when you examine different cultures according to Foucault. According to Queer theory, homosexuality is not an orientation.
“Jack, you seem to assume that homosexuality is a permanent part of person’s identity. This conception has changed over time and culture according to Queer theory. It just doesn’t hold up when you examine different cultures according to Foucult.”
I don’t assume, I know. I just do. For, some people, there’s just never any other choice. It’s part of you, for as far back as you can remember, and no matter what you do or how much you hate yourself and want it to go away. You can pretend it doesn’t exist but it still does.
Jack, at no point have I suggested someone should hate themselves. I guess controlling one’s sexual desires is a bit harder than refraining from cheating on a test. But the point is that doing “good” isn’t typically achieved without some kind of struggle.
Jack, I think you are a good person. Sometimes, I miss points like establishing the starting points. Thanks for setting me straight, as you can see I overlook stuff!
No, you really don’t. But it’s okay.
Everyone struggles. Some struggles are so futile and depressing I don’t really think that they are worth it. And I don’t see that a loving deity would like to put someone he loved in that position.
I think he does this kind of stuff so we don’t get too proud. He gives wealth and honors to the good and bad alike. I think he does this so we know these things are not that important, and that what he is looking for is a good will – like the will of a person who sticks up for his sister, friends, or George Clooney.
Jack, don’t forget to be patient with yourself and with God, he has been around for long time, and he seems to take things slowly.
I just don’t see how you guys think you can “love” someone, or think they are a good person, if you think a part of them is just disgusting and intrinsically evil. I don’t see how you can think that God would create someone someway and then hate that part of them. It’s all pretty nonsensical and depressing to me.
I know it does.
Jack, your understanding of the Catholic view of the homosexual is very wrong. The Church doesn’t think anyone is disgusting. Can you please do some research on what the Catholic Church actually says about the human person – then research what the Church says about homosexuality. You have to understand first what the Church says about the entire human person before you can understand what the Church says about this one part of the human person because homosexual inclinations do not make the person. I think your misunderstanding of the Church’s teaching is what causes me to respond to you so much, and makes us have so many discussions. Please try to get your understanding of the Church’s view right from the source, rather than second-hand sources.
Jack, just so you know where I coming from – the way you talk about Catholicism and Christianity is like the person who constantly says all homosexuals are pedophiles. It is wrong, right?
I know that the Church considers homosexual acts and homosexual lust intrinsically disordered and inherently evil. I know that some Catholics acknowledge that some people are born with/otherwise inherently possess same sex attraction and the simple attraction isn’t a sin, but lust and actions are.
While it’s not Catholic teaching, I just have to look at the comments on any article about gay adoption, gay marriage, or really anything about homosexuality to see what a good portion of people think about gays, even the ones who don’t practice. They “chose” to have attractions, they are compared to pedophiles and rapists, they shouldn’t have the right to raise even their own biological children because they are “disordered”, they’re called perverted, people refuse to acknowledge that people in gay relationships actually love each other, etc. I will admit it’s not near as hateful on this blog as it is in some places, like I’m pretty sure most of the commenters I talk to don’t hate gay people even if they say things I think are ignorant, but it’s still present.
You can’t tell me that if you previously thought someone was straight, but then you found out they were bisexual or gay (even if they didn’t act on their orientation for whatever reason), that it wouldn’t change your opinion of them Tyler.
“Jack, just so you know where I coming from – the way you talk about Catholicism and Christianity is like the person who constantly says all homosexuals are pedophiles. It is wrong, right?”
I attempt not to make assumptions and generalizations similar to that, if that’s what you feel I’ve done I’m sorry.
Can I talk to the Jack who wrote the post at 10:20 all the time?
Someone telling me they are gay after lying to me for many years would change my opinion of them – especially if they expected me not to love them anymore. I would also be very disappointed that they thought so little of me.
Lol how was that post much different from anything I’ve said all along?
It was clear, concise and assertive. It lacked ambiguity.
Furthermore, a person telling me that they were gay would not change my opinion of them in a significant or permanent way in relation to my remaining friends with them, if that is what you meant.
Would you think differently of someone if you knew they were gay or bisexual, Tyler? If you guys really think that homosexuality is a sin separate from the person, just like any other sin, then it wouldn’t change your opinion of the person.
Since you are against gays being able to adopt children, if you found out someone who had children from a previous marriage but was bisexual or gay would you believe it’s right to give custody to the other parent based on that fact alone?
Why is it common to call LGBT people “perverted” while all of you who had sex before marriage and other sexual sins aren’t called “perverted”?
Someone telling me they are gay after lying to me for many years…
Why does it have to be a lie, Tyler? You do realize that sometimes people discover things about themselves after serious inward reflection, right? Think of it like someone who was never religious before having a sudden epiphany and “coming to Jesus”.
“Someone telling me they are gay after lying to me for many years would change my opinion of them – especially if they expected me not to love them anymore. I would also be very disappointed that they thought so little of me.”
First, you keep editing your posts, and I end up looking dumb lol.
Can you not see why a friend of you or someone else who had strong opinions against homosexuality, might be afraid to tell you or other Christians?
In any case Jack, look up the teaching so you don’t have to this false notion of what the Catholic Church teaches. If the Church teaching doesn’t seem beautiful, then you don’t understand Church teaching yet. I know seeing the beauty of Church teaching is difficult, but the beauty is there.
Since you are against gays being able to adopt children, if you found out someone who had children from a previous marriage but was bisexual or gay would you believe it’s right to give custody to the other parent based on that fact alone?
These is a tough question for me. You’ll have to give me time to reflect on this question. For one, I am not sure exactly what custody means in the US. Jack, I have to think more about this question. Does the gay parent get to see the children at all?
Why is it common to call LGBT people “perverted” while all of you who had sex before marriage and other sexual sins aren’t called “perverted”?
Jack, this is just a red herring. I think you know many Churches still expect people not to have pre-marital sex. These people are sometimes called fornicators rather than perverts – but really, are you asking to me to split hairs as to which name is more derogatory?
Sorry for editing my posts – I am terrible at using the keyboard.
” These is a tough question for me. You’ll have to give me time to reflect on this question. For one, I am not sure exactly what custody means in the US. Jack, I have to think more about this question. Does the gay parent get to see the children at all?”
Usually in the US one parent has full and the other has visitation, like I have my kids all week and my ex sees them Wednesday nights and all Saturday. Otherwise they have joint, which means they work out another parenting schedule with more equal time. Usually a non-custodial parent gets to see the child, even if it’s not very often.
Some people I’ve talked to seem to think gay parents should only get supervised visitation because they are “disordered” and could abuse the kid. Others think that since they are morally deficient, unless the other parent is abusive to the children the gay person should lose custody and only get visitation.
If someone otherwise was a decent person and parent, would you think his kids should be taken away because he was bisexual or gay, knowing custody laws in the US?
” Jack, this is just a red herring. I think you know many Churches still expect people not to have pre-marital sex. These people are sometimes called fornicators rather than perverts – but really, are you asking to me to split hairs as to which name is more derogatory?”
Well, I’m just asking because I’ve rarely heard the harsh language directed at those who “fornicate” that’s been directed at gays.
Not to avoid the question (I will need more time to think about this – even after your explanation of custody) but I would also say that men generally have a harder time getting custody any way – it would probably be easier for a lesbian mother to get custody then a gay father. Also, another factor in custody cases is the age of the children – the younger they are, more often than not, the Courts side with the mother. Sometimes the courts will offer joint custody and visitation.
Also, I hate legal questions generally and the oppressive aspects of the law. This is part of the reason I like religion so much, and the message of Christ. Christ calls all of us, equally, to conversion no matter what our sins are. This is why I think the Church makes an egalitarian society. You probably think this is living in a dream world, but this is part of the reason I like the Catholic faith – it shows us how the world could be. In the Catholic world, the gay parent would subject their personal desires for the sake of the family, the spouse, and children. And the spouse would be considerate and appreciate the struggle of their gay spouse. And the children would be loved to the end of the world by both parents.
Jack, why wouldn’t the gay parent continue to live a “straight” life for the sake of his/her love of their spouse and children? If the sin (excuse the word choice) was anything else (gambling, adultery, drinking, etc…) I would expect this sinner to do the same – meaning that they should conquer (word choice) their sin for the sake of the family.
Well you’re correct it’s easier in general for mothers to get custody than fathers. I do know that children have been taken from lesbian mothers and given to their straight fathers, though.
I didn’t think it was that hard of a question. You are against gay people being allowed to adopt children. You see being gay as a sexual disorder a perversion and a moral failing. I don’t see why, say if you found out that I was bisexual or gay, that you would think my ex should get custody. Would it make a difference if the gay or bi parent wasn’t currently expressing their sexuality with a relationship? I know some Christians think that gay people should retain custody of their children and some Christians believe they should lose custody. I know Carla for example wouldn’t think that I should lose custody in my example. I was wondering what you thought, especially since you are so anti-gay adoption and think its damaging for children.
Well, the gay person might not see it as a sin and doesn’t believe it’s damaging for the children.
Jack – the Catholic Church angers everyone – I mean everyone – conservatives, progressives, homosexuals, heterosexuals, etc…. The Church’s message or call to imitate to Christ makes everyone recognize their failings and to try to put the interests of others first. It is the only organization that holds this ideal out to everyone. Basically, the Church says “a pox on all your houses, come to the true house, the house that Jesus built – the house of where people truly love one another.”
Well, the gay person might not see it as a sin and doesn’t believe it’s damaging for the children.
Jack, why didn’t the gay person put their children, family and marriage ahead of their sexual desires? Did this gay person really love their spouse?
” Jack, why didn’t the gay person put their children, family and marriage ahead of their sexual desires? Did this gay person really love their spouse?”
This person loved their spouse the best they could, they broke up for reasons unrelated to the bisexuality or homosexuality. And of course this person would put their kids first. I am simply asking you if you think that being bisexual or gay would mean that children should be removed from someone’s custody.
the Catholic Church is like the stereotypical Italian grandmother who constantly calls you to do what is right and good, and provides you with nourishing food to boot. So as much as it is uncomfortable because she seems to know your own faults before you do, you can’t be really upset with her, because you know she is telling the truth.
(Additionally, these Italian grandmothers usually produce very good and strong daughters.)
Jack do the parents get along? Are you asking if they deserve joint custody? It is really difficult to answer this hypothetical question – it really seems I should know the reason for the break-up. The reason for the break-up could influence the decision - the reason of the break-up could reveal something about the character of the parents.
Why is it common to call LGBT people “perverted” while all of you who had sex before marriage and other sexual sins aren’t called “perverted”?
The sex I had before marriage was definitely perverted. This made me and those I had sex with perverts. Fornicators, if you prefer. Sexual sinners.
Well, I’m just asking because I’ve rarely heard the harsh language directed at those who “fornicate” that’s been directed at gays.
Really? From what I’ve noticed, middle-school boys seem to tend to use the term “fag” more but by the time people hit high school and beyond, they are using words like “slut” and “male whore” at much larger levels. At least in the high schools and the bar scenes. Of course, it may all depend upon where you live and/or where you hang out or what you are listening for/sensitive to.
I didn’t think it was that hard of a question. You are against gay people being allowed to adopt children. You see being gay as a sexual disorder a perversion and a moral failing. I don’t see why, say if you found out that I was bisexual or gay, that you would think my ex should get custody. Would it make a difference if the gay or bi parent wasn’t currently expressing their sexuality with a relationship? I know some Christians think that gay people should retain custody of their children and some Christians believe they should lose custody. I know Carla for example wouldn’t think that I should lose custody in my example. I was wondering what you thought, especially since you are so anti-gay adoption and think its damaging for children.
Jack, let me think about this.
“Jack do the parents get along? Are you asking if they deserve joint custody? It is really difficult to answer this hypothetical question – it really seems I should know the reason for the break-up. The reason for the break-up could influence the decision - the reason of the break-up could reveal something about the character of the parents.”
I don’t think the reasons for the break-up are important Tyler, since I’m just asking if, all things otherwise equal, if you consider homosexuality or bisexuality a reason for someone who is a decent person otherwise to lose custody. But say they broke up because he had emotional problems and she was somewhat abusive towards him, just a wildly out-there hypothetical lol.
” Really? From what I’ve noticed, middle-school boys seem to tend to use the term “fag” more but by the time people hit high school and beyond, they are using words like “slut” and “male whore” at much larger levels. At least in the high schools and the bar scenes. Of course, it may all depend upon where you live and/or where you hang out or what you are listening for/sensitive to.”
I think you may be right about the area/what you’re listening for. Maybe I’ve just been around too many people who disliked homosexuality more than promiscuity. But it does seem to me like there is more judgment overall for homosexuality than promiscuity, like on this blog and the rest of the internet.
Praxedes, that is true – people still do have plenty of bad names for fornicators – male or female. For whatever reason, I was drawing a blank.
A few jokes in attempts to lighten the mood:
One Sunday morning, a mother went in to wake her son and tell him it was time to get ready for church, to which he replied, “I’m not going.”
“Why not?” she asked.
“I’ll give you two good reasons,” he said. “(1) they don’t like me and (2) I don’t like them.”
His mother replied, “I’ll give you two good reasons why you SHOULD go to church:
“(1) You’re 59 years old and (2) you’re the pastor!”
A Jewish Rabbi and a Catholic Priest met at the town’s annual 4th of July picnic. Old friends, they began their usual banter.
“This baked ham is really delicious,” the priest teased the rabbi. “You really ought to try it. I know it’s against your religion, but I can’t understand why such a wonderful food should be forbidden! You don’t know what you’re missing. You just haven’t lived until you’ve tried Mrs. Hall’s prized Virginia Baked Ham. Tell me, Rabbi, when are you going to break down and try it?”
The rabbi looked at the priest with a big grin and said, “At your wedding.”
Lol those jokes made me smile. I’ve always liked the second one.
I think homosexuality is discussed more than promiscuity right now because gay marriage is in the news the last few years.
“Praxedes, that is true – people still do have plenty of bad names for fornicators – male or female. For whatever reason, I was drawing a blank.”
There may be bad names, but I think women get judged a lot harsher for sleeping around with men than men do for sleeping with women. The only person who’s ever called me a slut or a man whore is my ex-wife, lol, even though I did a lot of sleeping around. But I have female friends who have slept with only two people who have been called sluts by a lot of people. One the other hand I think men get shamed for being virgins or celibate more than women do, and gay men seem to get hated on more than lesbians I believe. Of course this is all subjective and my opinion.
Jack, I have had a chance to sleep on your question. I still don’t have a definitive answer for you, but I do have some questions which when answered may help me to arrive at an answer.
You raised the point that you think homosexuality is inherent, or an orientation. Will you also grant that the repulsion (poor word choice I know – sorry) that many heterosexuals feel about homosexuality is also inherent? I am not saying or arguing that either of these inherent feelings are correct, just the possibility that both may exist. If both “feelings” exist how are we able to determine which is the correct feeling or intuition objectively and the best to govern social policy?
Many people who argue for gay marriage and adoption argue for it on the grounds that homosexuality is an orientation and that heterosexuals should just accept the reality of homosexuality, without acknowledging that the feelings of heterosexuals may be just as natural. These proponents of homosexual marriage and adoption want to argue that the feeling in heterosexuals is a culture constructed, which is just a theory, and not evidence while homosexuality, itself, is not a social construct.
Is racisim just a cultural construct or inherent. Racisim, does provide an interesting perspective because we don’t accept racism. However, my “feeling” is that racism is a cultural construction while heterosexism is not. I can’t prove this and my feeling may be a cultural construct!
Also we need to consider the children from this perspective. I worry that a child raised by gay parents could be radically confused by learning that he/she is being raised by gay parents. I think these children may experience some kind of horror at the fact that are missing their other biological parent in a way that children of adopted interracial parents will not. The adopted child of a different race will know that he/she is adopted and will probably want to learn about his biological parents, but he/she won’t experience the same anxiety that an adopted child of gay parents, and think this anxiety of the child adopted by gay parents would be due to the incongruity between the mechanics of human reproduction and the reality of their home life. I don’t see how this anxiety by these children can ever be removed. I am not child psychologist expert, but this one of my worries. I can only say that if that if I would’ve been raised my gay parents I would ‘ve felt confused by parents situation. Also, there is the point the culture is not really accepting of the situation which also makes it harder for children of adopted children – this can probably be changed while I don’t think the subjective experience of the children of gay parents can be changed that much – only buried.
I don’t mean this to sound mean or be mean spirited. I am sharing my concerns. I completely acknowledge that gay parents, in the situation you described, love their children just as much straight parents. I also understand how horrible it feels to be isolated and separated from one’s children. I definitely can sympathize with the awful feelings that the gay parents in these kind of situations would be feeling.
Jack, if you could share your perspective on these issues I raised it would be appreciated. I could take the easy way out, and just avoid all of these questions regarding the children by taking the libertarian perspective on the issue, but that probably would be honest or fair to the children and the straight parent in the situation. A libertarian perspective would make my life easier, but I don’t think you would’ve felt that I honored your questions. I hope you don’t think too poorly of me.
” You raised the point that you think homosexuality is inherent, or an orientation. Will you also grant that the repulsion (poor word choice I know – sorry) that many heterosexuals feel about homosexuality is also inherent? I am not saying or arguing that either of these inherent feelings are correct, just the possibility that both may exist. If both “feelings” exist how are we able to determine which is the correct feeling or intuition objectively and the best to govern social policy?”
Sure, disgust towards homosexuals may be inherent to some extent, who knows? I believe that you might understand why I think your question is ridiculous with an example. I know people who claim to be inherently grossed out by overweight people, and I know overweight people who claim that the are overweight because of genetics. It’s pretty obviously to me, at least, that the people who are grossed out by the overweight people just need to let the overweight people live their lives, and that having disgust towards someone doesn’t give you any type of rights.
“I worry that a child raised by gay parents could be radically confused by learning that he/she is being raised by gay parents. I think these children may experience some kind of horror at the fact that are missing their other biological parent in a way that children of adopted interracial parents will not. The adopted child of a different race will know that he/she is adopted and will probably want to learn about his biological parents, but he/she won’t experience the same anxiety that an adopted child of gay parents, and think this anxiety of the child adopted by gay parents would be due to the incongruity between the mechanics of human reproduction and the reality of their home life. ”
Why would a child be confused? If an adoptive couple can explain that Kid grew in another mommy’s belly, or however they explain adoption to their child, I am pretty sure that a child raised by a gay couple can have things explained to them as well. “Dad and Daddy loved each other and wanted to make a family, but since men can’t do that without help we found a lady who wanted to find a home for her baby.” It wouldn’t be that hard to explain, imo. About “anxiety”, adoptive children sometimes have mental problems with the fact that they are adopted regardless of who adopted them. I don’t believe they’ve done any studies on whether children adopted by gay couples are more upset by it. I can’t see why it would be particularly upsetting.
But anyway, that’s kinda dodging my question, because in my scenario the gay parent is the biological parent. So the kids would have no such anxiety by missing their bio parents are whatever.
” I don’t mean this to sound mean or be mean spirited. I am sharing my concerns. I completely acknowledge that gay parents, in the situation you described, love their children just as much straight parents. I also understand how horrible it feels to be isolated and separated from one’s children. I definitely can sympathize with the awful feelings that the gay parents in these kind of situations would be feeling. ”
I don’t think you’re mean-spirited, but I can’t see why you won’t just say “If I found out you were bisexual or gay I wouldn’t want your kids to be take from you based on that”. All I’m asking is if you think bisexuality or homosexuality in and of itself is a reason to remove children from a home.
I am surprised you were able to make any sense of that garbled mess. I really need to take the time and re-read my comments before I click “add comment.”
I don’t have any further explanations for my point of view at this point except the religious reasons you will never accept as valid. Maybe tomorrow, some more ideas or ways of explaining my perspective will pop into my head. I do think I provided an answer the question as to why “if found out you were bisexual or gay I wouldn’t want your kids to be take from you based on that.” It may not be an answer you like, but it is answer.
In the situation you describe, a divorce, involves a lot of complexities that straight (no pun intended) gay adoption does not have. Divorce cases are never easy and no party (either parent) has a trump card on the other parent. In divorce cases, the interests of the children always come first. If the children are young, like the ones in your example I think, the father, gay or straight, would have little to no chance to getting joint custody at the outset, especially if there is infant. If there is infant with siblings – no judge is going tear the kids apart like puzzle unless it is really needed and both parents agree for many reasons, not the least of which would be the practical considerations of having to force the custodial, Mom, to meet for multiple exchanges when there are so many kids plus an infant. I could go on on, because each family situation is unique, etc… But then end answer, divorce sucks and should be avoided as much as possible. (Yes, and I don’t deny that separation is necessary or even critical in some relationship. )
Sorry, I am not rereading this post because I can’t stand talking about divorce.
Jack, I really think the more each parent can be like Christ, and put the interests and concerns of the other first, many, if not all, of the problems between the parents would go away and they could return to focusing on their kids. Both parents would have to make sacrifices, some sacrifices will larger than others, but that was what they implicitly or explicitly promised to each other when they got married or when they decided to have kids together or when they simply had kids together.
Jack, there is also the problem of gay individuals marrying or using straight people in order to have a family. Unfortunately, it is something that straight people have to watch out for today.
Tyler, you keep going off on tangents. You basically know my situation, I have full custody of my two kids, and I hope you know I do a decent job taking care of them. If it was found out I was bisexual or gay do you think that would be a reason to remove my kids from my custody, or at least a reason for the courts to reevaluate custody?
And don’t go off on any tangents, assume there’s no relationships going on, it’s just the orientation, kids aren’t being exposed to promiscuity, gay or otherwise.
“Jack, there is also the problem of gay individuals marrying or using straight people in order to have a family. Unfortunately, it is something that straight people have to watch out for today.”
It’s far, far more likely that someone gets married trying to force themselves to live straight because they’ve been told being gay or bisexual is wrong, than it is for some ebil gay person to trick some straight person into getting married so they can have a baby.
So can I pull a Jack and say that it depends on which state you live in?
IAE, I do think I answered the question.
Jack, unfortunately we don’t know, and the used straight spouse won’t know whether he/she was used or was simply a victim of un-self aware gay spouse. Nonetheless, something heteros have to watch out for today.
Well, obviously it would depend on the state. I live in the south, my state varies between liberal and conservative. But I am not asking about what the legality is. I’m asking what you personally think. If you knew I was bisexual or gay do you think that should be a factor in whether I should have custody?
Did the person lie about their sexuality prior to obtaining custody? It may not be the orientation as much as it is the lying that is causing the revaluation. Do you know which it is?
Jack, the general rule, as far as I aware, in custody cases is the interest of the child(ren).
“This person” didn’t “lie” deliberately, more like didn’t want to admit it to himself and wasn’t planning on acting on his bisexuality, ever, so he saw it as irrelevant and was afraid of losing his kids if it came up. So, maybe omission of the truth instead of lie.
What you wrote above is your perspective or take on it, the other spouse may have a different perspective and may not see it in such a benign way. What you said above is reasonable, but it is not the only possible scenario/interpretation given the facts you provided. When a person is on the receiving end of an “omission of truth” it often feels equivalent to a deliberate lie.
Are we still pretending we’re speaking in hypotheticals? My ex doesn’t think I lied to her, btw, she knows that it wasn’t deliberate. Can you please let me know if you think my orientation is a reason for my kids to be taken or for custody to be reevaluated? I feel like I’m pulling teeth here.
Well, just to jump in for a minute (lots of waves here). It seems to me the deciding factor in custody would be current irresponsibility, not “Are you now or have you ever been… whatever?”
The government shouldn’t be going by “Well, this parent is Baptist and that one is Methodist. Baptists are better suited to be a parent.” No, it’s the totality of the situation, not this quirk vs. that one.
Jack, who initiated the revaluation if your spouse didn’t think it was deliberate?
There’s no current reevaluation, though I’m starting to hope that I find a sympathetic non-religious judge if there ever was! I’m asking if you Tyler, personally, see bisexuality or homosexuality as a reason to remove a child from a home and place them with the straight parent. I am wondering if you see the orientation as a “mark” against the non-straight spouse when it comes to child custody. I’m wondering if you think I’m less fit to care for my children then I would be if I were completely straight, or if you think I am as fit as you thought I was before you just found out.
Sorry, Jack due to the many hypotheticals I was dealing with it was hard to keep track of which one you wanted answered. I do appreciate the honesty you have extended towards me, I will try to do my best to respect it.
I will think about this and get back to you on it.
I will let Hans do clean-up if he would like.
It’s literally the same question I’ve asked you for the last like fifteen posts lol. But yeah, get back to me. I’m curious.
Hans seems to have good answers, perhaps he can answer your question again.
I already knew what Hans thought, I was wondering what you thought.
Ok.
How far out of the loop have I been?
Yeah, I’m a regular genius. It’s not up to us to judge someone’s custody rights. They’re out of our hands. We might have our opinions, but it seems to me this whole argument is moot.
Custody, hopefully, goes to the parent who is most inclined to raise the kids and doesn’t show signs of being harmful to them.
So says me. But what do I know?
Not far, literally the only people I have asked about things were Carla, Xalisae, and Hans. So don’t feel bad, I just decided I was being a hypocrite by pretending this didn’t exist for me when I have arguments about homosexuality on this blog. If I really don’t think there’s something wrong with being gay or bisexual I have to stop pretending.
Jack, be patient with yourself.
I don’t think answering/discussing your question will be helpful at this point.
Sex is a powerful emotion when you are younger, especially in this culture.
I know you don’t believe this (probably because no one says it very much) but you are not your sexual desires. They do not control you or “have” you as some people say. That is a lie. You are free, never forget that. You get to decide the life you want – not an appetite, no matter what the appetite is.
Jack I can also provide what I think is compelling evidence that supports the idea that we are free. If you are interested to know what that evidence is please let me know.
“I just don’t see how you guys think you can “love” someone, or think they are a good person, if you think a part of them is just disgusting and intrinsically evil. I don’t see how you can think that God would create someone someway and then hate that part of them. It’s all pretty nonsensical and depressing to me.”
I’m going to say again that it certainly seems like you find the view intolerable. Just b/c you can’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not true. Try to comprehend that yes their desires are disordered, and sometimes their actions with or without an orientation are sinful, but our sins do not define us. There is not one of us without sin.
As for how God makes people I could ask “How could God make me with such a hideous temper and expect me to struggle SO hard to be loving and forgive my enemies when it comes so naturally to other members of my family.” Or “How could God make me infertile and cut me off from that joy and additionally forbid me to use ART (even some methods of ART that don’t run afoul of pro-life issues).” You will dismiss these temptations as you have in the past, b/c everyone thinks their own crosses are heaviest. I readily admit that there are others with heavier crosses than me. But we are all struggling (and often failing, yes) to unite our will to God’s b/c we believe that our creator understands us enough to say “trust me, this is not good for you”. So for homosexuals who struggle to control their desires and live chastely (which as mentioned we are all called to do), the struggle is worth it because they are seeking to align themselves with God’s will in this fallen world. It’s a honorable, valiant struggle and even if you don’t think it’s worth it, they do. That’s why it’s not futile and depressing, but possible and hopeful. I know you don’t believe in God, but this is just to help you understand the religious perspective.
” I’m going to say again that it certainly seems like you find the view intolerable. Just b/c you can’t understand it doesn’t mean it’s not true. Try to comprehend that yes their desires are disordered, and sometimes their actions with or without an orientation are sinful, but our sins do not define us. There is not one of us without sin.”
Okay, maybe I find it somewhat intolerable. Maybe because I don’t think I really believe that you guys can separate “sinner” and “sin” in this case. Note Tyler apparently being incapable of telling me that I shouldn’t lose custody of my kids simply for having the orientation, not acting on it at all. If it’s not ME, then it shouldn’t change y’alls opinion of me and no one should have a problem with me raising my own children. It be like anyone else raising kids.
As for the rest of your comment, I do get that. I just see it as depressing because I obviously don’t believe it had an eternal reward. In my mind it’s just pointless denial.
“Jack I can also provide what I think is compelling evidence that supports the idea that we are free. If you are interested to know what that evidence is please let me know. ”
Sure, shoot. Why not?
“Maybe because I don’t think I really believe that you guys can separate “sinner” and “sin” in this case.”
That’s fine but that’s what I was saying – the scenario you proposing about it being ok that we think it’s sinful doesn’t exist. You’re not the only one who doesn’t believe it, and you’re a pretty fair person. I think you can admit that the mainstream view among proponents of homosexual rights is that calling homosexual behavior sinful is hateful in and of itself. So again – let’s drop the pretense.
“Note Tyler apparently being incapable of telling me that I shouldn’t lose custody of my kids simply for having the orientation, not acting on it at all.”
Ok Tyler’s an tough one for me. Sometimes I think he’s right on point and other times he’s agreeing w/ Denise and asking if I feel guilty for supporting abortion and then other times I just have NO idea what’s going on. It’s very confusing for me b/c the change can happen rapidly over a short series of comments. No offense, Tyler, I just have a little trouble following all the time – I think I’m getting it and then I’m suddenly not.
I didn’t read the custody back and forth, but a parent’s sexual behavior that the kids are aware of (heterosexual or homosexual) should be a factor in custody decisions. It isn’t always – depends on the state, depends on the judge – but it should be. If there is no sexual behavior at issue (as you’re stating) then obviously it shouldn’t have anything to do with your custody. And note I said “A” factor not THE factor. So also weighing in your case would be your ex wife’s …um…issues. And those would weigh pretty heavily in my opinion. How’s that. Hateful? I mean honestly you really think we would all suddenly feel differently towards you if we learned that you had homosexual or bisexual feelings (or had engaged in that behavior). Nope. You are you regardless.
” That’s fine but that’s what I was saying – the scenario you proposing about it being ok that we think it’s sinful doesn’t exist. You’re not the only one who doesn’t believe it, and you’re a pretty fair person. I think you can admit that the mainstream view among proponents of homosexual rights is that calling homosexual behavior sinful is hateful in and of itself. So again – let’s drop the pretense.”
Maybe I’m not being completely fair. But it’s seriously, seriously hard to hear people argue against homosexuality and bisexuality by comparing it with pedophilia, rape, talk about taking away people’s kids, etc and then be like “yeah, those people totally love me as a person. They only think I’m as bad as a rapist and shouldn’t be raising children”. I mean, come on. If something that was a part of you was talked about like some of you guys talk about homosexuality you would have difficulty believing that people could separate it from you as a person too. I mean, I’ve watched people scream and cry on this website when Christians are called “bigots”, but I’m supposed to believe it’s just love talking when people like me, practicing or not, are compared to rapists and pedos?
“I didn’t read the custody back and forth, but a parent’s sexual behavior that the kids are aware of (heterosexual or homosexual) should be a factor in custody decisions. It isn’t always – depends on the state, depends on the judge – but it should be. If there is no sexual behavior at issue (as you’re stating) then obviously it shouldn’t have anything to do with your custody. And note I said “A” factor not THE factor. So also weighing in your case would be your ex wife’s …um…issues. And those would weigh pretty heavily in my opinion. How’s that. Hateful?”
Not hateful, and thank you for not hedging on it.
” I mean honestly you really think we would all suddenly feel differently towards you if we learned that you had homosexual or bisexual feelings (or had engaged in that behavior).”
Yes.
“Nope. You are you regardless.”
Thank you.
Just look at the images on these webpages (I did not read the content) and let me know what you think they have in common. (FYI – I am assuming you think Jesus is just a man.)
http://blakefarrington.photoshelter.com/image/I0000xJIgymAA7As
http://secretaryclinton.wordpress.com/2011/06/04/remembering-tiananmen-square-22-years-later/
http://www.beholdingjesus.com/the-crucifixion-of-jesus-part-1/
Bravery, self-sacrifice, all that.
And what does “all that” mean? Do you see the connection with human freedom?
By the way, can you tell me where human freedom exists? Can we taste it, smell it, see it, hear it, or touch it?
“I just don’t see how you guys think you can “love” someone, or think they are a good person, if you think a part of them is just disgusting and intrinsically evil. I don’t see how you can think that God would create someone someway and then hate that part of them. It’s all pretty nonsensical and depressing to me.”
Jack,
Maybe I can shed some light on this particular question.
Most Catholics and the majority of the Christians with whom I have spoken on the subject believe that there is something intrinsically evil within all of us. In fact, the Catholic Church has a name for this: original sin. The tendency to turn to sin. The desire for things which bring us further from the Creator, further from true sacrificial love. These tendencies and these sins certainly vary from person to person, but they are there within us all. Therefore, it is easy to believe that you are a good person despite the tendencies within yourself which are by nature evil because we all have something comparable within ourselves. I will however add that I wouldn’t use the term ‘disgusting’ because I think that God is hurt and offended by us but rarely ‘disgusted’… but that is my personal belief which I have not cross-referenced against anything and cannot stand behind in more than a “this sounds good to me” sort of way.
Does that make sense?
Jack, I don’t think less of you as a person. I can’t for two reasons: I have my own sins and my Lord tells me that I shouldn’t.
See? Tyler just reaffirmed what I was saying. We are all bad, and we are just trying to sort out what about us is disordered, and what brings us further from Christ so that we might avoid those actions. By acknowledging a sin that some disagree is in fact sinful, we are not condemning the sinner; how could we, when we are in the same boat? Different sin, same disorder.
Jack, what if the person is rapist? Would you hate them? Would you forgive them? Do they deserve a second chance?
“Jack, what if the person is rapist? Would you hate them? Would you forgive them? Do they deserve a second chance?”
I’ve forgiven my dad, I don’t hate him. I would never in a million years let him near my children, or me for that matter. He doesn’t deserve a second chance to rape anyone else, if he were in good enough health to do so. There’s forgiveness and there’s stupidity.
I think comparing something like rape to a freaking sexual orientation is just pure bigotry, I’m sorry if that makes me a bigot myself.
Actually, maybe not sorry.
“See? Tyler just reaffirmed what I was saying. We are all bad, and we are just trying to sort out what about us is disordered, and what brings us further from Christ so that we might avoid those actions. By acknowledging a sin that some disagree is in fact sinful, we are not condemning the sinner; how could we, when we are in the same boat? Different sin, same disorder.”
I do get it. That part rarely comes across though, that everyone has their struggles, in people’s diatribes against gays. At least in my opinion, which is admittedly probably overwrought and biased.
A little from column a, a little from column b, if you ask me. :-/
This thread is beginning to look like the Seven Circles of Hell. When do we get off this not-so-merry-go-round?
I’m just never going to understand how you all think that LGBT people aren’t talked about any differently than any other sinners (post-abortive women get a lot of hate, but at least they have their defenders). I sometimes feel like people completely dehumanize them, that they become this big scary agenda to people rather than actual people.
Whoever is liking my comments should make their own comments in support of what I’m saying, because I’m seriously exhausted trying to get people to understand.
No, two adults in a mutual, monogamous, healthy relationship that is not hurting anyone IS NOT EVEN CLOSE to rape (even if it’s a homosexual relationship!). The comparison is sick and deranged. But what do I know? I’m just as bad as a killer of children who makes their money murdering babies by the thousands…JUST BECAUSE I DON’T BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD. Right.
You people are off the deep-end.
If Hell is filled with people like Jack, I cannot wait to go there. Thanks.
You will dismiss these temptations as you have in the past, b/c everyone thinks their own crosses are heaviest. I readily admit that there are others with heavier crosses than me.
What CT posted reminded me of the story I have posted on my bathroom mirror:
The Cross Room
The young man was at the end of his rope: Seeing no way out, he dropped to his knees in prayer. ”Lord, I can’t go on,” he said. ”I have too heavy a cross to bear.”
The Lord replied, “My son, if you can’t bear its weight, just place your cross inside this room. Then, open that other door, and pick out any cross you wish.”
The man was filled with relief. ”Thank you, Lord,” he sighed, and he did as he was told. Upon entering the other door, he saw many crosses, some so large the tops were not visible. Then, he spotted a tiny cross leaning against a far wall.
“I’d like that one, Lord,” he whispered.
And the Lord replied, “My beloved son, that is the cross you just brought in.”
You people are off the deep-end.
A good enough reason for me to need a Savior.
If you honestly think a lack of spirituality is on par with killing your own child or killing the children of others for a living, I honestly don’t know what else I can possibly say to you.
Please point out where I said one was on par with the other anywhere. No one here said rape was on par with homosexual/bisexual tendencies either. You are reading into people’s comments and perceiving them the way you choose to.
I was pointing out that you judge others that hate being judged as much as you perceive you are being judged. The only way proaborts think they are not being judged is if they are told that what they support is okay.
No, two adults in a mutual, monogamous, healthy relationship that is not hurting anyone
Some of us disagree that all mutual, monogamous adult relationships are healthy. When I disagree with you, it is your perception that I am being judgmental and this is not the case. There was a time that I didn’t understand what the big deal was about mutual, monogamous adult relationships.
You and I have the same Judge.
I’m sorry, but I have to interject about the whole rape/pedophile thing.
I have seen it compared, on this thread, to homosexuality. Not necessarily equated, but comparing the two is still incredibly insulting to anyone who struggles with homosexual urges. Can we maybe choose something more comparable?
I believe homosexual behavior is a sin. A sin comparable to, say, alcohol addiction. It’s a sin of the flesh that *can* but doesn’t *automatically* damage the psyche of a growing child. A *functioning* alcoholic needn’t lose his children or get locked away or anything, any more than a lesbian whose behavior isn’t destructive or damaging. In both cases, though, if the other parent’s behavior and lifestyle choices are more constructive, that should be taken into account.
I know that this comment will probably upset both sides, but I’ve been watching this thread, jumping in infrequently, and I have to say, it’s really offensive to even compare a gay guy-who is practicing his sexual deviance-with a pedophile or rapist. Having mutual sexual relations-monogamous or not-isn’t the same as, or even comparable to, forcing or coercing sex out of someone.
I understand that the comparison was made partly to show that we feel that everyone, even those who commit far more heinous crimes, should receive our love and forgiveness. I get that. But we should maybe be WAY clearer about that because otherwise it just sounds hurtful. And it’s exactly why Jack and X and others say that we’re bigoted. Because whether or not it is (and let’s face it, sometimes, there are religious bigots on this website who don’t display a love of neighbor), it sure as heck hurts either way.
Okay, end of my rant.
As a survivor or two rapes, I understood what Tyler was getting at.
I can speak for Tyler though and maybe he was comparing the two. I will speak for myself though: I wasn’t comparing lacking faith to aborting children but was accused of comparing the two. My apologies for not being clearer. I have been on Jill’s long enough that some of this should certainly be clear by now.
I believe homosexual behavior is a sin. A sin comparable to, say, alcohol addiction.
Children of alcoholics have their own struggles in life. My dad is a recovering alcoholic and his behavior (addiction, sin, choices, whatever you feel comfortable calling it) left deep wounds in our family. All of us went on to have marriages or relationships with alcoholics and I have a brother who is a “functioning” alcoholic. My children’s dad is an alcoholic and his behavior when under the influence is very destructive and damaging to the children and others in his life. There are people who are “dry drunks” meaning they don’t drink but still have the mindset of an alcoholic and do hurt people around them.
There are support groups everywhere for Children of Alcoholics. Maybe there should be support groups for Children of Homosexuals.
Above should read, “I CAN’T speak for Tyler” instead of “CAN”.
Just found this:
http://www.ncregister.com/site/article/191
com·pare
[kuhm-pair] Show IPA verb, com·pared,com·par·ing, noun
verb (used with object)
1.
to examine (two or more objects, ideas, people, etc.) in order to note similarities and differences: to compare two pieces of cloth; to compare the governments of two nations.
2.
to consider or describe as similar; liken: Shall I compare thee to a summer’s day?
“There are people who are “dry drunks” meaning they don’t drink but still have the mindset of an alcoholic and do hurt people around them.”
If you’re making the comparison to homosexuality or bisexuality, you’re basically saying that even if I never actually “act on” what I am, I’m still hurting my kids? What exactly do people expect me to do?
I think alcoholism is a poor comparison anyway.
” I know that this comment will probably upset both sides, but I’ve been watching this thread, jumping in infrequently, and I have to say, it’s really offensive to even compare a gay guy-who is practicing his sexual deviance-with a pedophile or rapist. Having mutual sexual relations-monogamous or not-isn’t the same as, or even comparable to, forcing or coercing sex out of someone.”
Thank you MaryRose.
“You have judged the way you live your life to be “better” than the way I live MY life, and that’s simply not so. We are BOTH living our lives in the ways best FOR US.
As is the thinking of women who choose to abort or abortionists who choose their profession but you point out to them all the time that there are better choices to make. But when I do it on a different topic, I am being judgmental.”
Comparison. There ya go.
You have compared your not aborting your child as the right way to live over those who have aborted their child, X.
Comparison. There ya go.
Are you being judgmental when you do so?
I think there should be a support group for children of religious people who think it’s okay to criticize everyone else’s parenting.
But honestly, I wish all you who think it’s all fine and dandy to make horrible analogies about rapists to make your points would understand you basically lose every bit of legitimacy and claim to “love” the sinner you’re trying to convince is equivalent to the rapist. Especially me with my history. When people make those comparisons of course it doesn’t bother you Praxedes, you’re not the person who is being compared to the horrible person. Do any of you actually think that I will be able to consider your points rationally if I’m being compared to my dad?
You have compared your not aborting your child as the right way to live over those who have aborted their child, X.
Yeah. You think being a non-believer is comparable to killing someone. That’s insane. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
I never compared rape to homosexuality. Jack did though.
xalisae, sometimes you need to improve your interpretation or reading comprehension. Some of the conclusions you draw from people’s comments are way off.
I did not. I brought it up because it’s a common comparison, truthseeker just compared even just having the orientation to having the urge to rape people, on another thread. You were the one who wanted to make a point with it.
And honestly if you all called your religious fellows out for saying stuff like that, it would be a lot easier for me to believe you actually “love” and can separate sinner from sin. MaryRose is the only one I’ve seen say truthfully that it’s hurtful.
Tyler I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings I might have overreacted because mine are hurt. I just wish people, if you really don’t hate the sinner for the sin, would try to imagine what it’s like to hear this stuff all the time for something you didn’t choose or even DO.
I think there should be a support group for children of religious people who think it’s okay to criticize everyone else’s parenting.
Start one up. These folks will help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_From_Religion_Foundation
You think being a non-believer is comparable to killing someone.
Again, no I do not. Let me repeat: No, I do not. I was equating raising children with faith vs. raising children without faith. You started down the comparing trail.
Hurt feelings go both ways, Jack. My feelings have been hurt on this thread, too. My apologies for hurting yours.
X admitted that she doesn’t care what I or anyone other than her family thinks of her so I don’t think it is possible for anyone other than her family to hurt her feelings. But you and her have hurt my feelings on this thread.
I’m sorry I hurt your feelings Prax, it wasn’t my intent. I just feel really attacked.
It is not my intent to hurt feelings either. I feel really attacked at times here too.
Thanks for the apology; it is completely accepted. (:
I accept your apology as well. :)
My other comment has links so I can’t edit right away, but I just wanted to clarify that when I said I’m praying for you I mean that in a sincere way – praying for you to find peace and to know you’re infinitely loved. I know some people take it to be sarcastic (and some people say it sarcastically).
I have never heard of this woman before today but I find her story interesting and compelling:
http://www.dawnstefanowicz.org/dawntest.htm
” From a young age, I was exposed to explicit sexual speech, self-indulgent lifestyles, varied GLBT subcultures and gay vacation spots. Sex looked gratuitous to me as a child. I was exposed to all inclusive manifestations of sexuality including bathhouse sex, cross-dressing, sodomy, pornography, gay nudity, lesbianism, bisexuality, minor recruitment, voyeurism and exhibitionism. Sado-masochism was alluded to and aspects demonstrated. Alcohol and drugs were often contributing factors to lower inhibitions in my father’s relationships.”
Does anyone really think I would raise my kids like that woman was raised? With multiple partners, sexual abuse from randoms allowed into the house, drugs, exposure to pornography and sex acts, etc? Even if I went and got a boyfriend, you honestly think I’d put that kinda stuff over my kids and expose them to it? I feel for her, but that’s not how I parent. Even if I’m defective you guys should know me a little better than that.
You can’t compare how me or someone else who’s into monogamy, even if they are gay or bisexual, to something like that. I know kids raised by straight single moms who grew up in that type of environment as well, but it’s not a reason to take custody from straight single moms. No more would this woman’s tragedy mean that I should lose custody of my kids for my orientation.
I can’t see your comment with links CT, but I believe you mean it sincerely.
Does anyone really think I would raise my kids like that woman was raised? With multiple partners, sexual abuse from randoms allowed into the house, drugs, exposure to pornography and sex acts, etc? Even if I went and got a boyfriend, you honestly think I’d put that kinda stuff over my kids and expose them to it? I feel for her, but that’s not how I parent. Even if I’m defective you guys should know me a little better than that.
Where are you getting that anyone here thinks this about you. Jack? Holey Moley, it’s not all about you all the time.
We have been talking about different lifestyles on this thread and the effects some lifestyles have on children. I have talked about the effects of being raised in an alcoholic home and you have talked about being raised in an abusive home. This thread alone addresses alternative lifestyles, for crying in the rain.
I come across a woman who wrote a book about her childhood experiences that I find interesting and compelling and that relates to what has been discussed here and you think I am pointing fingers at you. I ordered this woman’s book because I respect anyone who has overcome adversity, including you, me and X and because I think her story is worth hearing.
You can’t compare how me or someone else who’s into monogamy, even if they are gay or bisexual, to something like that. I know kids raised by straight single moms who grew up in that type of environment as well, but it’s not a reason to take custody from straight single moms. No more would this woman’s tragedy mean that I should lose custody of my kids for my orientation.
Who in the heck here brought up that they think you should lose custody? You are the one who brought up your orientations and custody in the first place. I’m starting to feel like I am walking on eggshells around you. Jeesh.
Did you read that this woman’s parents were way involved in their religions, too, Jack? Her dad was a Sunday school teacher.
Maybe I should be offended and automatically assume this woman is cutting down anyone who is involved with religion.
” Where are you getting that anyone here thinks this about you. Jack? Holey Moley, it’s not all about you all the time.”
I’m sorry, I’m being self-absorbed again, aren’t I? I think it’s just I’ve spent several years on this site, and the entire time I’ve had kids listening to people talking about the horror of LGBT people raising kids, I’ve rarely heard anyone saying any good, like maybe some of them do a good job and are capable of it. Eventually it just stings. This lady’s type of parents are held up as the example of what type of parents these people make. It’s really, really disheartening.
And I read the article you posted on her, she thinks that men who aren’t straight simply can’t raise healthy daughters at least, in her experience her dad obviously did a bad job and caused some real damage, but I can’t let generalizing like that stand anymore.
” Who in the heck here brought up that they think you should lose custody? You are the one who brought up your orientations and custody in the first place. I’m starting to feel like I am walking on eggshells around you. Jeesh.”
I don’t want anyone to feel like they are walking on eggshells, I’ll do my best to try and state my opinions fairly. I wasn’t angry or attacking you or anything, I was just trying to say my piece.
“Did you read that this woman’s parents were way involved in their religions, too, Jack? Her dad was a Sunday school teacher.
Maybe I should be offended and automatically assume this woman is cutting down anyone who is involved with religion.”
I think there’s a difference in that there are a million examples, on this site and in society of large, of great Christian parents who do a wonderful job. Bad parents who happen to be Christians are seen (rightly, I might add), as an aberration. But parents who aren’t straight, these cases are held up as the norm and are used as a type of rallying call to keep children from them. You can’t see why I get insecure about whether people would approve of my kids getting taken from me?
If I used my parents as an example of a typical Christian household I really hope everyone would call me out on it, tell me it’s not fair to judge everyone by them.
And I read the article you posted on her, she thinks that men who aren’t straight simply can’t raise healthy daughters at least, in her experience her dad obviously did a bad job and caused some real damage, but I can’t let generalizing like that stand anymore.
She is just trying to say her piece, too. I’ve read the beginning of her book and, in spite of everything, she gives her dad an awful lot of loving credit, too.
I really do care about you and your children, Jack. I am sure your children are wonderful human beings. Just like their dad.
” I really do care about you and your children, Jack. I am sure your children are wonderful human beings. Just like their dad.”
Thank you, I just don’t understand how you can think this at all.
Jack, do you really have a lesbian sister?
Yes, my oldest sister is a lesbian.
I wasn’t sure I thought she may have been a fictional stand-in for yourself. Do you have any other brothers and sisters? Just curious, because I find that the fact that both you and your sister have ssa interesting.
Thank you, I just don’t understand how you can think this at all.
I know you may not understand my caring about you and yours, but I’m asking that you just have faith that I do. I also really do care what you think about me.
I have four sisters and a brother. Three sisters are straight, as far as I know, two of them are married. My brothers a creep and a terrible person but I think he’s straight, he had a girlfriend before he went to prison, at least. I don’t know my siblings that well, they’re all quite a bit older than me.
” I know you may not understand my caring about you and yours, but I’m asking that you just have faith that I do. I also really do care what you think about me.”
I will try to have faith. And I don’t think bad of you even when we argue. :)
Jack, I noticed that you apologized to me. What comment(s), point(s), theme(s) and/or tactic(s) are you apologizing for? In other words, in what way do you think that you have been hurtful?
I’m apologizing for being maybe making assumptions about what people are thinking, and assuming the worst rather than the best.
Tyler,
Maybe you could apologize for examining Jack like a kid examining an ant under a magnifying glass.
I know how he must feel. I remember in high school playing chess with a rather dumb, nasty kid. I had quite a weight problem back then and felt rather sidelined among the various cliques. Anyway, I looked up after intently making a move to see this jerk leering and smiling like he was entertained by my “inferiority”.
You tend to come off rather condescending with unbelievers. Not helpful. Flies and vinegar, and all that.
Hans, I am not sure I can make out what you would like me to apologize for. Was it the no insulting names I called Jacks, or perhaps it was the compliments I gave Jack? Perhaps, you can specify which?
Hans, perhaps your opponent was just happy he discovered a good move, perhaps there was no condescension? Do you know how old your opponent was?
Sometimes when you talk to me, Tyler, I feel like you’re schooling me as a child, not having a discussion with me as a fellow adult. I don’t think you mean harm, but it gets frustrating. I’ve lived more life than a lot of people, even if I’m fairly young, and sometimes you come across like you think I’m a little dim.
Thanks for understanding Jack. If I didn’t consider you an adult I wouldn’t have spent the time talking to you.
Tyler, we were the same age, in ninth or tenth grade. It was the same snickering look dopes like him would give to a Down kid.
I agree with Jack that you don’t mean harm. But sometimes you come off as a stuffy old anthropologist studying some native tribe.
I am sorry to hear that you received such a terrible snickering look. I agree with you that people shouldn’t look down on a child with Down Syndrome, or any other learning disability, or people who are gay, or people of a different religion. It is good to agree with Hans. I realize that you don’t mean harm either, and are just trying to give me friendly advice. Your fellow student, the “dope”, probably needed some kindness too. I am sure you extended him some courtesy.
Yeah, I avoided him. That was my courtesy. Students didn’t try to evangelize others to be as wonderful as they were. At least not back in the early 70s. Today, there would probably be a knifefight.
In other news, a gay man was shot in the head and killed this weekend in a historically gay NY neighborhood, the West Village. His assailant screamed “faggot” before shooting. I guess the perpetrator thought, in his own way, that he was “celebrating heterosexuality.”
I’ve really got to read this whole thread sometime, it looks pretty epic. ;)
Anyways, from what I have seen, I do have one question. Tyler, do you really think it was productive to ask Jack if his sister really existed? I mean, he has mentioned her on other threads so it would seem unlikely that he just made her up for this conversation or whatever.
JDC, I have my reasons. I think we should let this conversation drop now.
Ok, I’ll gladly let it drop.
Blue Velvet, sorry to hear about that. That should not happen.
“In other news, a gay man was shot in the head and killed this weekend in a historically gay NY neighborhood, the West Village. His assailant screamed “faggot” before shooting. I guess the perpetrator thought, in his own way, that he was “celebrating heterosexuality.””
Why do you insist on lying? Don’t you know we live in a gay culture, where LGBT people are celebrated as demigods and have all the legal and social sway? WND said it, it must be true.
“Tyler, do you really think it was productive to ask Jack if his sister really existed? I mean, he has mentioned her on other threads so it would seem unlikely that he just made her up for this conversation or whatever. ”
Lol that didn’t bug me, it kind of make sense in a way, for me to make up a gay family member to explain why I take anti-LGBT stuff so personally and didn’t want to admit I was one of them. But no, both her and I are not straight and exist.
Blue Velvet: “In other news, a gay man was shot in the head and killed this weekend in a historically gay NY neighborhood, the West Village. His assailant screamed “faggot” before shooting. I guess the perpetrator thought, in his own way, that he was “celebrating heterosexuality.”
Jack: “Why do you insist on lying? Don’t you know we live in a gay culture, where LGBT people are celebrated as demigods and have all the legal and social sway? WND said it, it must be true”
You’ve stated that you don’t believe in my good intentions. This is why I doubt yours. You try to sound fair and blather about not accepting the extremes as the norm and then respond like this? If you had an ounce of the fairness you’ve pretended to have on this thread you would have treated this comment with the contempt it deserves. But despite all evidence to the contrary here, you’re right. We all cheer this guy b/c he was celebrating heterosexuality (bravo my man!!). And his existence and actions are really on point to a discussion about the political power of the homosexual rights movement.
Ridiculous.
I remember in high school playing chess with a rather dumb, nasty kid.
Maybe he picked up on the fact that you saw him as “dumb” and “nasty” and was responding with the same.
I’m glad I was too simple for Chess Club. You gamers would have eaten me alive! (:
CT,
Thank you for that. I have seen a few commenters who have tried to be as fair as possible on this thread, and having a comment like Jack’s above thrown in there after he constantly is crying “foul!” on every slightly offensive thing that might be said is just plain disheartening. Thank you for finding the words to express it without unkindness or contempt.
And maybe abusive spouses just show their love a little differently than everyone else?
Sticking up for bullies is like, awesome! :D
“You’ve stated that you don’t believe in my good intentions. This is why I doubt yours. You try to sound fair and blather about not accepting the extremes as the norm and then respond like this? If you had an ounce of the fairness you’ve pretended to have on this thread you would have treated this comment with the contempt it deserves. But despite all evidence to the contrary here, you’re right. We all cheer this guy b/c he was celebrating heterosexuality (bravo my man!!). And his existence and actions are really on point to a discussion about the political power of the homosexual rights movement.”
Wait, wait. So the existence of a gay couple complaining about/suing someone for not baking a cake for their wedding is absolutely evidence of systemic discrimination against Christians in the US, but a murder of a gay person for being gay isn’t?
I didn’t say “this is what all Christians/anti-LGBT people think and approve of”, it wasn’t meant to come across that way. It was a tongue in cheek remark about how I think it’s ridiculous how people complain about the “true” discrimination being against Christians in this country, despite all evidence to the contrary. I think that’s ridiculous, I’m going to say so. If people would like I can put a caveat on it anytime I mention something like this, because I truly, honestly believe that 99% percent of you don’t agree with prejudice or discrimination on that level.
Seriously, don’t get how you guys can’t see you have double standards here. It’s supposed to be completely fine if you think I’m intrinsically disordered and evil, it’s supposed to be completely cool if you think that homosexual actions are evil and perverted, and I’m supposed to be upset that some Christians get sued for not providing services to a gay couple (which, don’t forget, much as I disagree with those Christians I don’t think they should be forced to provide those services). I’m also somehow supposed to accept your horror that people make Mother’s Day cards with lesbians on them, and that kids read about Heather having two mommies and that being okay. It’s totally cool for you guys to have those opinion, and I’m being unfair if I argue about those opinions.
But somehow I’m not supposed to be upset about people being murdered for their sexuality, the LGBT suicide rate being astronomical compared to straight people, and the holding up of abusive households as the norm for LGBT parents. If I get upset or find this unfair then I’m obviously the one in the wrong.
Who is “you guys”, Jack? Jack, I think it is because you bring up the issue a fair bit.
xalisae, didn’t you admit that you were/are a bully? I am confused by your comment. Did you abuse your spouse?
Jack, I think adding a caveat would be a good idea, especially when you expect us “you guys” to do likewise when discussing issues of sexuality and perversion, etc….
Sarcasm is just absolutely lost on you, Tyler.
No, I didn’t abuse my ex-spouse. He abused me.
“Who is “you guys”, Jack? Jack, I think it is because you bring up the issue a fair bit.”
I don’t bring up homosexuality on this blog, actually, I actually can’t remember a thread where I brought it up first. I simply respond to the ten gazillion posts, comments, etc about it. I’m not gonna let you play in your echo chamber alone.
“You guys” is anyone who agrees with the view of homosexuality/bisexuality as a disorder/perversion/whatever and thinks Christians are being discriminated against in the US.
“Jack, I think adding a caveat would be a good idea, especially when you expect us “you guys” to do likewise when discussing issues of sexuality and perversion, etc….”
Fine, I’ll add a disclaimer on the bottom of any sarcastic posts I make about the evidence of Christian discrimination in this country.
What disclaimer do you think I want?
I am glad to hear that you are not an abuser xalisae.
Jack I think you want the following disclaimer: ”homosexuality is not linked to pedophilia.” At least that is the one I have heard you complain most about. Is there another that you would like?
I am glad that you don’t want to let “us” play in the echo chamber alone. Were you always this much of an activist? I wish you felt more a part of “us.”
“Jack I think you want the following disclaimer: ”homosexuality is not linked to pedophilia.” At least that is the one I have heard you claim most about. Is there another that you would like?”
I don’t want a disclaimer of “homosexuality is not linked to pedophilia”. I do want you guys to bother calling your fellows out when they make those comparisons, or tell people they’re wrong when they’re comparing the homosexual/bisexual orientation to the urge to rape animals, or kids, or even adults. Stop leaving me alone on a thread arguing for twenty comments against someone making the comparison, when you all have all the time in the world to make sure the world knows you think LGBT people are perverted and disordered.
If you’re wondering, that’s probably why I’m never actually going to believe you all “love” those who aren’t straight. You’ll let that stuff stand, while you’ll argue with me for 500+ comments about whether or not it’s okay to teach kids in school that gay people exist and aren’t evil. I don’t remember, in my time on this blog, literally any anti-gay person besides MaryRose say those comparisons are wrong. I’ve seen some of you defend the comparisons, and I see silence.
“I am glad that you don’t want to let “us” play in the echo chamber alone. Were you always this much of an activist? I wish you felt more a part of “us.””
I’m not an activist, I’m just arguing against things that hurt me. I’m never going to be a part of you guys. How could I? I’ve never wanted anything more than I’ve wanted to be “normal” but I’m always, always going to be seen as intrinsically disordered and perverted.
Jack don’t forget homosexuality is legal in the US so all the religious words like “disordered” or “evil” don’t negate the freedom homosexual persons have to act on their desires. In the end the Catholic and Christian position is no different than the libertarian position – love the sinner, hate the sin – is really akin to a libertarian concept. Furthermore, it is very similar to your ” much as I disagree with those Christians I don’t think they should be forced to provide those services” idea. Christians don’t agree with homosexuality but it is not illegal, it is not outlawed.
“I’ve never wanted anything more than I’ve wanted to be “normal” but I’m always, always going to be seen as intrinsically disordered and perverted.”
Jack, Mary Rose and countless others have already explained to you that the Church considers us all disordered.
Furthermore, this does go to the heart of the matter. You don’t like the fact that homosexuality is seen as being opposed to the natural end of human reproduction and human relations. Unfortunately, I don’t see a way around this, but if you can provide me with an alternative way of understanding homosexuality I would appreciate hearing it, preferably without simply being told to just ignore the above mentioned view. Can you show how this view is wrong?
Jack, I find it ironic that you are using a Natural Law argument to argue against the Natural Law. I know this debate is more than academic to you, and because of that I find it sometimes hard to follow all of your passionate arguments.
Jack, I think what most Christians and Catholics would want to see the internally generated personal conversion of homosexual people rather than homosexuals being externally motivated to convert or change.
I can’t Tyler, I’m done.
Jack,
We don’t think the homosexual lifestyle is healthy. We don’t think a lot of lifestyle choices are good. This doesn’t mean that we hate you or think that your comments aren’t relevant. However, I for one have been dismissed one time too many.
You go ahead and do your thing and live your life and I’m going to continue to fight for marriage as an institution between one man and one woman, and I’m going to continue to fight for religious liberty. AND I’m going to continue to see anyone who dresses intentionally offensively for big showy anti-Christian gay pride parades as offensive and as turning away from God and I am going to continue to worry for their wellbeing.
And honestly, if you can’t recognize that a Christian working to open your eyes to Christ’s love and to the path to God is an act of love then that’s something that you are missing out on, not us. And yeah, there are Christians who don’t bring it to you lovingly but by and large this thread has been well-intentioned and loving attempts to unveil for you our position. Not to make you straight and not to force you to agree, but to tell you where we stand and why.
So I’m done. Because when I honestly call out the transgressions I’m seeing, I’m met with sarcasm and dismissiveness not from those I called out but from you.
Jack, I think what most Christians and Catholics would want to see the internally generated personal conversion of homosexual people.
And I think what Jack would want to see most is Christians and Catholics to stop feeling so entitled to their ideal world that other private individuals have to change themselves (when they’re not hurting anyone) and hurt themselves and their partners just to make Christians, Catholics, and their god feel better. A world where Christians and Catholics don’t “hate” an aspect of people they claim in the same breath to love.
But I doubt that’s going to happen. You guys can’t even get your crap together long enough to agree on how to worship your god (I’ve seen the threads that go on for miles and miles of Catholic attacking Protestant and vice-versa, with everyone else in between thrown-in for good measure).
MaryRose, I was genuinely saying that it was good that you call those things out, I wasn’t saying that you did anything wrong. I appreciated it, it’s the only time I can actually remember that anyone besides me or maybe Xalisae said something about those comparisons.
I suppose it doesn’t actually matter in the long run though.
““You guys” is anyone who agrees with the view of homosexuality/bisexuality as a disorder/perversion/whatever and thinks Christians are being discriminated against in the US.”
I’m going to change my moniker to you guys.
“Wait, wait. So the existence of a gay couple complaining about/suing someone for not baking a cake for their wedding is absolutely evidence of systemic discrimination against Christians in the US, but a murder of a gay person for being gay isn’t?”
They are both discrimination and intolerance. What the fudge does that have to do w/ BV’s comment.
“I didn’t say “this is what all Christians/anti-LGBT people think and approve of”, it wasn’t meant to come across that way.”
Well it does come across that way b/c that’s what BV said and you responded positively to her comment.
“It was a tongue in cheek remark about how I think it’s ridiculous how people complain about the “true” discrimination being against Christians in this country, despite all evidence to the contrary. I think that’s ridiculous, I’m going to say so.”
Then say so and we’ll debate said evidence…but don’t say it in positive response to a comment like that if you want people to think you’re fair minded.
“Seriously, don’t get how you guys can’t see you have double standards here.”
I have no double standard. Both are discrimination. Continue to be confused by that.
“It’s supposed to be completely fine if you think I’m intrinsically disordered and evil,”
Swing and a miss.
“it’s supposed to be completely cool if you think that homosexual actions are evil and perverted,”
There you go. But you certainly are not obligated to think that’s cool. Just don’t PRETEND that you do when trying to sound so fair. I’m not going back to look but I think the words were something like “No gay person I know cares if Christians think their behavior is sinful.”
“and I’m supposed to be upset that some Christians get sued for not providing services to a gay couple (which, don’t forget, much as I disagree with those Christians I don’t think they should be forced to provide those services). I’m also somehow supposed to accept your horror that people make Mother’s Day cards with lesbians on them, and that kids read about Heather having two mommies and that being okay. It’s totally cool for you guys to have those opinion, and I’m being unfair if I argue about those opinions.”
No to all counts. You are not “supposed” to do anything. BUT You are being less than truthful when you pretend that you think it’s fine for us to believe these things and then get furious when it turns out that we do. Just admit that you can’t tolerate the belief and let the debate continue on honest terms. And you don’t even have to be fair even while being honest. You can certainly continue to jump on comments like BVs.
“But somehow I’m not supposed to be upset about people being murdered for their sexuality,”
A million dollars if you can find anyone here who said you shouldn’t be upset or that they weren’t upset (you know…in the 5 seconds since this tangent even started).
I would like to force myself to be more fair than I really am, I suppose. I’m sorry.
“A world where Christians and Catholics don’t “hate” an aspect of people they claim in the same breath to love.”
No one has ever claimed to love that aspect of people’s behavior. We love the whole person as a person. If you have to love every aspect of a person and every behavior in order to love them, then I can say pretty confidently that no one in this world loves any other person and probably can’t even claim to love themselves.
“But I doubt that’s going to happen. You guys can’t even get your crap together long enough to agree on how to worship your god (I’ve seen the threads that go on for miles and miles of Catholic attacking Protestant and vice-versa, with everyone else in between thrown-in for good measure).”
Oh I forgot that atheists agree on everything and never debate the finer points of any issues. I object to the term attack too. The majority of those discussions are not attacks but discussions with the exception of a few people who can’t talk about anything w/out relating it to themselves.
Like it or not, when you make sarcastic comments that make us all out to be crazies who don’t care about a life lost and who are incapable of doing proper research on a subject, those comments have an effect on everyone who sees them. Some might blow them off, but I found them incredibly distasteful. And then you followed them up by stating that I and others have a double-standard because we believe that the tendency to sin is intrinsically disordered and that Christians are being persecuted. But it wasn’t that you were looking to delve into this. No, it was just a convenient attack. Because the fact of the matter is, we’ve been honestly trying to express to you our stance. And you aren’t listening.
You’re right. I’m probably not trying to understand like I think I am. I really just hear my mom. I’m sorry.
Mary Rose, I don’t think Jack means anything condescending by saying you sound like his Mom. He said I sounded like his Father once. Even though Jack has told us horrible he thinks his parents are, I don’t think he meant to say this in order to disrespect you.
It’s a slight against myself, not her or anyone else Tyler. I’m obviously incapable of separating her views and these views. Let that be clear please. My fault, not an insult to anyone.
I don’t take offense to Jack honestly expressing that he struggles with his perception of Christians based on his childhood experience, and I can acknowledge that anything I say that references God is going to strike that nerve.
Jack addressed the issue I expressed and I’m grateful. Thank you.
It’s not referencing God, it’s the whole intrinsically disordered thing. I don’t think it matters though I clearly can’t understand correctly.
Jack I really wish that I could tell you something that would convince you, or even make you feel better, but I think what you want to hear right now is nothing that I can say.
My point in being so adamant about making you face your real position is so that you understand why Christians cannot sit back and do nothing. Yours is the mainstream position for those in favor of homosexual rights. What it always comes down to (and indeed this makes sense from their perspective) is that stating the Christian position is a form of bullying. It makes people with homosexual attraction feel bad, and it refuses to accept equivalence among gay sex and heterosexual sex. It cannot be tolerated. It is being enforced in schools and it doesn’t matter that some supporters of homosexual rights might think they are comfortable with a compromise position. Given the goals of the political gay rights movement (and I say this to distinguish the goals of the average homosexual rights supporter or average homosexual person which may be different), it can never go unopposed by Christians. There is no compromise between those goals and Christianity. That’s why you see the emphasis and the emphasis will have to continue as long as the push for redefinition of marriage and the current anti-bullying curriculum continue. I know there are idiots out there who are motivated by hate. But I believe truly that you have not encountered such people here on this thread.
So there really isn’t any hope at all, I guess. I’m sorry for being rude.
Jack, you seem to see only condemnation in the Christian position regarding homosexuality. I wish you could see the hope. So. much. hope. With Christ, we can be truly free from what enslaves us. Whatever disorder that may be…and we all have them. This freedom doesn’t come easy. Gaze upon a crucifix and you will see the cost. With lifelong effort we (Christians) must die to ourselves and unite with Christ. And there we receive true peace and happiness. No fear. No condemnation. No regret. Just forgiveness, peace, and everything good and beautiful. And right now, this very moment, Christ is showering you with the graces of hope and faith. You just have to accept them. I will be praying for you.
Jack, there is always. always. always. hope.
“I’m never going to be a part of you guys. How could I? I’ve never wanted anything more than I’ve wanted to be “normal” but I’m always, always going to be seen as intrinsically disordered and perverted.”
I didn’t see this before but I just wanted to say that the following thing came to my mind: “I tried being normal once. Worst 2 minutes of my life.”
I also want to share this with you because I thought it was beautifully written when I read it. It’s from an article on Catholic Vote that I won’t link to b/c I have trouble w/ links lately but it’s called “Doodling on Carvaggios” if you’re interested:
“We also forgot that each and every person has their own particular witness to bear, their own particular truth about God to reveal. Which means we’re walking around not seeing that each of us is an unrepeatable work of wonder, that no one else in all of time will image God quite like we do, and that when we silence the witness of any one of us—inside the womb or outside the womb—we’re losing more than a person. We’re losing a glimpse of God that no one else can or will give.”
Jack, we have to fight for the truth. But we all have our flaws and our weaknesses and our temptations, and our struggle to master those allows us to bring something to the world that someone with different flaws and temptations can never bring. That’s part of our unique witness. You are one of God’s children and you don’t need to be “normal” – you just need to be you, disorders and all.
Jack, you seem to see only condemnation in the Christian position regarding homosexuality. I wish you could see the hope. So. much. hope. With Christ, we can be truly free from what enslaves us. Whatever disorder that may be…and we all have them. This freedom doesn’t come easy. Gaze upon a crucifix and you will see the cost.
Don’t listen to them, Jack. You ARE free. There is nothing wrong with you. You have no “disorder” just because your sexual orientation isn’t what THEY think it should be. You are not “enslaved” by your sexual orientation.
And Jesus wasn’t the only guy the Roman’s crucified. So, big whup there. 9_9
Just have faith in yourself. Love yourself, because you deserve it. You’re a great person, and I wouldn’t change a single thing about you.
Not. One.
And guess what? That goes for every other non-straight individual reading this right now. You can ALWAYS be Pro-Life, regardless of how some other people in this movement feel about you. There are plenty of people here who will accept you for who you are and gladly fight this fight beside you.
“You can ALWAYS be Pro-Life, regardless of how some other people in this movement feel about you. There are plenty of people here who will accept you for who you are and gladly fight this fight beside you.”
Oh please. You mean who will fight this fight and affirm you. Because no one here won’t fight this fight beside a gay person. No one says a gay person (or an atheist or Muslim or ANYONE) can’t be pro-life. It’s the other way around if people are saying I won’t be pro-life b/c people disagree with me on other issues. I’m an animal rights activist even though those people disagree with me on everything else (religion, politics, abortion, children, even some animal rights tactics). But on that broad issue we fight together. So this is bull crap.
Right. Because Marauder quit commenting here because they just didn’t feel like it anymore, not because they felt chased away by you lot. Riiiight.
So like I said – b/c they can’t be involved with pro-life people who disagree with them. I’m not pretending to think homosexual behavior is good in order to convince people to work together on an issue we do agree on.
”It’s not good. But it’s not bad, either. It just is. Just like heterosexual relationships. Some are okay, some are good, some are bad, but they all just *are*.”
Says you. So we should all just agree with you then?
“And non-straight people who want to be involved in this movement deserve to know that this movement is not just made up of control-freak Christians who think they are malfunctioning. So, I’m not going away, and I’m not shutting up.”
LOL. The irony. No one’s telling you to leave or shut up.
Finally caught up on this thread.Maybe I’ll actually have something to say about it after I get some sleep. Good night everyone. :)
500 comments! I’m impressed. *golf clap*
There are plenty of people here who will accept you for who you are and gladly fight this fight beside you.
I count myself as one of them. I accept everyone as they are, flaws and all. Doesn’t mean I don’t hope & desire better for them. Doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend their enslavement to sin is actually freedom and happiness. You may read Jack’s comments on this blog and see a happy, well-adjusted man just doing his pro-life thing. That’s not what I see. So. many. comments of Jack’s on this blog have cried out something entirely different to me. I’m going to go with my instinct here. I won’t shut up and go away. I won’t view the people that comment here as simply pro-life or pro-choice and ignore the entire person. Especially when they’ve willingly shared so much more of themselves with us.
So, maybe I’ll share a little. Sexual sin started very early in my life. Pre-puberty in grade school. And continued for decades. I don’t know why and I won’t get into the details of exactly what my sins were. I’m still just as flawed now as I was then, but I know how to deal with my flaws better. I know who I can turn to for help. Sometimes the sinful thoughts are easy to reject, other times they are more difficult. When they are very persistent I picture Jesus, bloody and beaten on the Cross and I know He suffered that for me. Some would no doubt look at my life and say I was in denial. That I’m really bi-sexual and am repressing who I truly am. But I know the truth. I am free. I embrace what is holy and reject what is sinful. It takes hard work to remain free. But it’s so worth it.
Two things that I’ve learned over the years. 1) If you are into pornography, STOP. It’s an unhealthy addiction and there is help if you need it. 2) If you masturbate, STOP. It’s an unhealthy addiction and powerfully reinforces thoughts that are harmful.
Jack, I wish for you (and everyone) the peace and happiness that I believe only Christ can bring.
xalisae, you raise an interesting question: are Christians and Catholics control freaks?
I am sure many Christian and Catholics worry about coming across as control freaks. But I am guessing for most, the point of expressing their Catholic or Christian perspective is not about controlling other people but about sharing their experience.
I think it is unfair to say Christians and Catholics are control freaks while implying that no other groups are control freaks. I think by definition all groups are control freaks to some extent. For example, if you are an atheist, there are some things you will not accept about reality that a Christian or Catholic will. Similarly, a homosexual person may have a different understanding than heterosexual person about what sexuality is. Each person or group, seems like a control freak from the other person’s perspective.
Jesus and St. Paul tried to teach us to get over these divisions among ourselves, and that the person we truly need to control is ourselves, to remember the love of God is for each of us. Isn’t it important for us all to try to get along and come to an agreement about what is good? I would appreciate if our society had a discussion about what is good. I think that is what we are trying to discuss but without explicitly acknowledging that is what we are doing.
“Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.11For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe’s people, that there are quarrels among you.12Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, “I am of Paul,” and “I of Apollos,” and “I of Cephas,” and “I of Christ.”13Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?14I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,15so that no one would say you were baptized in my name.16Now I did baptize also the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any other.17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.” (1 Cor 1: 10-17)
If we can establish what is good, we might be able to find common ground.
Not sure what happened but the same comment got posted twice.
I accept everyone as they are, flaws and all. Doesn’t mean I don’t hope & desire better for them. Doesn’t mean I’m going to pretend their enslavement to sin is actually freedom and happiness.
And I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t feel like you were being accepted if someone told you that you having sex with your significant other was a flaw on your part, the fact you were married meant you were “enslaved to sin”, and that your choice to get married meant you were deficient in some way and they “want better for you” than being involved with your significant other who you love very much.
You may read Jack’s comments on this blog and see a happy, well-adjusted man just doing his pro-life thing. That’s not what I see.
I not only read Jack’s comments on this blog, but he and I maintain dialogue back and forth through direct messages on Twitter just about every day, and stay up talking to each other into the wee hours of the morning rather regularly. Jack is pretty happy when the people here aren’t making him miserable. He’s trying to work through issues and experience a healthy relationship. And he’s doing MUCH better at that now than he was when he was married to his ex-wife who really didn’t treat him very well. And, he doesn’t need the people here telling him he’s doing something wrong for finding someone who treats him respectfully and with love just because that someone might be a dude.
So. many. comments of Jack’s on this blog have cried out something entirely different to me. I’m going to go with my instinct here. I won’t shut up and go away.
Great. Then don’t get bent out of shape when people tell you where you can cram your “instinct” about their life, and how little they care about what you think about how they live their life.
I won’t view the people that comment here as simply pro-life or pro-choice and ignore the entire person. Especially when they’ve willingly shared so much more of themselves with us.
Enjoy being counter-productive to the Pro-Life Movement. Thanks for that, by the way. 9_9
So, maybe I’ll share a little. Sexual sin started very early in my life. Pre-puberty in grade school.
Wow. I’m sorry you were sexually-active before you were ready. But a kid can’t possibly understand the gravity of such things, and I’m sorry you see yourself has having “sinned” instead of just making an uneducated mistake that I am guessing occurred in the absence of instruction or education you needed.
And continued for decades. I don’t know why and I won’t get into the details of exactly what my sins were.
I can honestly say I don’t care what you think of as “sins”. I am sorry though, if there’s something about yourself that you’ve been made to think of as bad or wrong when it’s not actually the case. If that is how things are for you, I pity you.
I’m still just as flawed now as I was then, but I know how to deal with my flaws better. I know who I can turn to for help. Sometimes the sinful thoughts are easy to reject, other times they are more difficult. When they are very persistent I picture Jesus, bloody and beaten on the Cross and I know He suffered that for me. Some would no doubt look at my life and say I was in denial. That I’m really bi-sexual and am repressing who I truly am. But I know the truth. I am free. I embrace what is holy and reject what is sinful. It takes hard work to remain free. But it’s so worth it.
Yeah. Being made to think you’re bad just for being yourself, lying to yourself and denying who you really are, and appealing to one of the many Roman crucifixion victims who died many thousands of years ago by talking to him in your head sounds WAY more healthy and free and stuff. What was I thinking? XD
Two things that I’ve learned over the years. 1) If you are into pornography, STOP. It’s an unhealthy addiction and there is help if you need it.
You’re not the boss of me, and I[m pretty sure what you think of as a “pornography addiction” and what I would think of as a “pornography addiction” are two drastically different things, thanks.
2) If you masturbate, STOP. It’s an unhealthy addiction and powerfully reinforces thoughts that are harmful.
ROFLMAO!! Now I know why you guys are so miserable!!! Bwahahahahahahahha!!!
And no, I absolutely will not. It happens to be one of the high points of my day.
Busybodies, I swear!
xalisae, I hope you are not reinforcing any confusion Jack may have.
Jack, I know going to talk to xalisae is probably easy, but she may not be the best person to talk to about your issues. You may want to seek others and to reflect on your situation quietly.
xalisae, life may be ok for you right now because you have the remnants of your Catholic morality and sacraments; but your next generation may not be so lucky.
xalisae, you do not appear to be very grateful for being raised a Catholic. Also, it appears what you do for and expect from your own family members is different from how you treat and what you expect from strangers and non-family members.
xalisae, I hope you are not reinforcing any confusion Jack may have.
Tyler, Jack is not confused. He’d be a lot better if he didn’t have a bunch of people telling him how bad he is all the time, just like his parents used to do.
xalisae, I hope you are not reinforcing any confusion Jack may have. Jack, I know going to talk to xalisae is probably easy, but she may not be the best person to talk to about your issues. You may want to seek others and to reflect on your situation quietly.
I’m not “reinforcing” anything. I’m offering support to my friend who needs to be shown his value, loved, and accepted for who he is, rather than told how crappy he is.
If anyone else here ever wants to stop living a lie and is ready to accept themselves for who they are and want love and support as they do that, you can find me on Twitter. Hit me up with a DM. You’re not evil or bad, you’re just you! <3
Lrning, that was powerful testimony. I appreciated you sharing your testimony. You are a lot like St. Paul. Your courage and strength is inspiring. God bless you. I wish I could go to Church with you.
“If anyone else here ever wants to stop living a lie and is ready to accept themselves for who they are and want love and support as they do that, you can find me on Twitter. Hit me up with a DM. You’re not evil or bad, you’re just you.”
Before making this offer you should at least tell people what your understanding of “living the truth” is.
If anyone else here ever wants to stop living a lie and is ready to accept themselves for who they are…
Actually, this is a very important point. We should be careful how we define ourselves. It can be tempting but unhealthy to accept the labels others want to put on us. I am not bi-sexual. Or a thief. Or a liar. Or a pervert. Or an accessory to murder. Or a pro-choicer. Or a gossiper. Or a fornicator. Although I participated in all that behavior at one time or another and work, sometimes minute-by-minute, to avoid repeating past mistakes. I am a woman, a mother, a wife, a sister, a friend, a disciple of Christ, a child of God.
Now I know why you guys are so miserable!!!
Cute. But the truth is something far, far different. Disordered sexual pleasure was very destructive to my life. I may never fully recover in this lifetime, but I am so happy to be free. Those who have battled and overcome addictions or other destructive behavior will understand this. Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. Never want to go back.
Mods, please alter my last post to remove the questionable language so it can stay up as an invitation to all those who would like to join us in the Pro-Life cause but feel demeaned by a lack of acceptance of their sexuality. Thank you.
I’m done here.
CT, at the beginning of this thread we were talking about safe spaces. About how there shouldn’t be “gay friendly” hallways in school because that would violate some Christian’s right not to be offended. Now we have an incident where a hateful nut walks into what’s literally the biggest “gay-friendly hallway” in the country and shoots a gay man in the face because he’s gay.
Another example of the literal persecution of gay people in this country vs the imagined threat of Christian persecution. And if you can’t make the connection between the dehumanizing language of “perversion” and violence against those deemed “perverted,” then there’s no helping you.
x,
And Jesus wasn’t the only guy the Roman’s crucified. So, big whup there. 9_9
Yeah. Being made to think you’re bad just for being yourself, lying to yourself and denying who you really are, and appealing to one of the many Roman crucifixion victims who died many thousands of years ago by talking to him in your head sounds WAY more healthy and free and stuff. What was I thinking? XD
Oh boy, it’s difficult enough to have a foot in both camps, but I’m shuffling to one side.
It is a “big whup” to a lot of us.
Just because we’re pro-life doesn’t require us to be pro every way of living. If we don’t see every lifestyle as equally wise and healthy, we would ask you not to insist we “lie to ourselves”.
No one here has called Jack evil. But we’re all flawed. Humans are a work in progress.
Jack is pretty happy when the people here aren’t making him miserable.
You seem to speak a lot for Jack, X. Jack is no longer a ten years old who is being forced to live at Jill’s with the controlling Christians. No one here can make Jack miserable without his permission.
Right. Because Marauder quit commenting here because they just didn’t feel like it anymore, not because they felt chased away by you lot. Riiiight.
Marauder wasn’t chased away. She FELT chased away because people disagreed with her on topics other than abortion.
I’m not pretending to think homosexual behavior is good in order to convince people to work together on an issue we do agree on.
What? If you don’t agree with me that brushing our teeth three times a day is in our best interests, I’m going to take my toothbrush, leave, and cry me a river. Everyone in the prolife movement better agree with me that brushing teeth three times a day is the way to go.
Don’t listen to them, Jack. You ARE free. There is nothing wrong with you. You have no “disorder” just because your sexual orientation isn’t what THEY think it should be. You are not “enslaved” by your sexual orientation.
And Jesus wasn’t the only guy the Roman’s crucified. So, big whup there!
Just have faith in yourself. Love yourself, because you deserve it. You’re a great person, and I wouldn’t change a single thing about you.
Not. One.
And guess what? That goes for every other non-straight individual reading this right now. You can ALWAYS be Pro-Life, regardless of how some other people in this movement feel about you. There are plenty of people here who will accept you for who you are and gladly fight this fight beside you.
I hope Jack, you can see one day why I, and I think all Christians and Catholics, can say the exact same thing xalisae said. And you are correct to notice that there is a difference in emphasis and a difference in goals, but that should be expected. And yes, the language of Christianity and Catholicism can get confusing, but it really shouldn’t obscure the message. No one has stopped “accepting” you – that is a lie.
Thanks for the comments, I can’t really respond because there are too many and I think I need to get off this thread and have an internet break for a while. I’m sorry to anyone I’ve was snotty to.
I would just like to apologize to Tyler as I criticized him unneccessarily earler on this thread. I’m really sorry, man.
Thank you, everyone, for your participation in this thread. Comments are now closed.