How abortion proponents view current pro-life tactics
As I wrote in my post, “How abortion proponents view the current abortion landscape,” I have developed a collegial relationship with Robin Marty, pictured right, senior political reporter for RH Reality Check.
This past weekend Robin was in Chicago for a National Organization for Women convention, and we got to meet. She had asked if she could interview me for a piece she’s writing.
Through the course of our lunchtime conversation (which she paid for, thanks!) Robin enlightened me on how abortion proponents view current pro-life efforts, particularly since 2010, when pro-lifers began passing laws in unprecedented numbers. Robin agreed to let me share her thoughts. I’m not going to pick them apart, I simply find them fascinating and thought you might, too.
Playing fair
Robin shocked me when she accused pro-lifers of not playing fair. Of course, pro-lifers think pro-choicers (using Robin’s preferred terminology for this post) are underhanded and conniving. But us?
Robin acknowledged, “It’s fair to say both sides think the other side isn’t playing fair.” But Texas was a glaring example of pro-life chicanery in the eyes of abortion proponents, even as pro-lifers thought just the opposite.
“In Texas you had a legislative session that finished with no abortion bill, and then the governor added a special session,” Robin explained. “And we feel we won that special session. We organized as quickly as we could. We had a massive filibuster.”
What about the infamous mob that kept a vote from happening by midnight?
“I can see how your side can say the debate was finished at 11:48p, and it should have been time for a vote, and we broke the rules by not letting that happen,” said Robin. “But at the same time there was a series of events leading up to those 12 minutes. Our people watched Wendy Davis filibuster and be told she went off-topic [broke filibuster rules], although we thought she was completely on-topic. Those 12 minutes were a culmination of events that led up to them.”
Robin gave another recent example of Republican legislators in North Carolina gutting a bill about Sharia law and inserting pro-life provisions. Robin said such tactics have been disheartening to some pro-choicers, who proceed to walk away from politics. I responded that legislators do this all the time. IMO it’s simply politics. Politics are dirty. Politics aren’t necessarily fair. I reminded her of our classic example of Democrat dirty politics: Obamacare.
Common ground
“There’s no such thing as common ground,” Robin agreed, “when we believe this is a civil rights issue for women, and you believe it’s a civil rights issue for the unborn. I don’t think we will ever agree.”
“But I think it is interesting that we both have common ground in the opposition,” Robin noted. “There are a lot of parallels between both the pro-choice and pro-life side when it comes to what each side thinks is justified and not justified and thinking the other side is not playing by the rules.”
Robin hearkened back to the Texas fiasco. “Maybe that 12 minutes wasn’t a traditional tactic,” Robin explained, “but in this case it was justified. And on your side, exposing a bloody fetus poster to a 5-yr-old would be justified because that’s what’s necessary for you to make abortion end.”
Robin noted that we both have factions we cannot control. We have factions that move too fast and factions that move too slow. She said we also both now often the same civil justice language.
Is the sky really falling this time?
I so often hear wild exaggerations from the other side that I never know if and when they think something is a real emergency. I asked Robin about this. Do they see these particular times as truly alarming?
“I can only speak for myself and a lot of activists I have talked to,” Robin responded. “‘The sky is falling’ is a bit extreme, but I do think there has been a significant shift. The language has changed, the tactics have changed. Local stories – such as when Ohio added abortion restrictions to their budget, or when North Carolina gutted that bill – are now national news events. There is a sense that abortion access could be changed forever. People who weren’t necessarily engaged are paying attention. The public is becoming more aware that abortion isn’t a settled issue, which many believed was until now.”
Losing my religion
I asked Robin about the perceived thrones of pro-choice power in Washington and New York. Do they call the shots for the movement, and if so, how does the movement like that?
“I do believe a lot of the policy is being made in DC and New York that I don’t think resonates with people who live in the Midwest or South,” Robin responded, “especially messaging that can come across as anti-religious. I think the pro-choice position needs to be discussed in a way that can be taken to churches – embracing faith, family, and community.
Robin noted “a rift between the religious and nonreligious side of our movement.”
Planned Parenthood
How does the movement view Planned Parenthood, I asked?
“The feeling toward Planned Parenthood has more to do with your interaction with them,” said Robin. “I don’t think there is an overarching belief that Planned Parenthood is helping or hurting the movement. It does fantastic work trying to obtain access for contraception. It is also doing quite a bit with litigation and keeping clinics open – not just their own. I think overall Planned Parenthood continues to be something the movement supports.”
Who will win?
Simple question.
Robin answered, “Your side wins if you convince everyone there is a baby at the point of conception. Our side wins if we convince people this fight is not just about disallowing those who don’t want to be pregnant to not be pregnant, but it’s also about stopping people from not getting pregnant in the first place. This will end up being a game of who appeals most to the vast majority of people who aren’t taking a side.
“The topic of contraception is necessary to be discussed. We are focusing more on birth control not because abortion isn’t a winning issue but because we never thought birth control was in jeopardy. That’s frightening to us.”
—-
Thanks to Robin for going out on a limb and accepting her first “hostile” interview, as she put it. I appreciate her candidness.
Sometimes I see everyone on the other side as a big lump of evil people, even though I pray to see them as Jesus does. I’m sure many think the same of us. Robin is a reminder to me that even though we couldn’t be more at odds on the most important issue of our lifetime, many pro-choicers are fellow human beings with good – albeit terribly misled (sorry had to say it :)) – intentions.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Great article. Think if folks on both sides read this they will understand each other a little more. I think pro-lifers and pro-choicers can learn their shortcomings and what they need to stress. I’m a pro-lifer and I think we need to help the pro-choicers understand that we love life, that being the mom’s and the babies.
Thanks for sharing. Kudos to both you and Robin for agreeing to meet. Well done to both of you.
Good article and glad that the lines of communication are open. I was just thinking? We have cases of those who were pro choice coming to the pro life side. Is there any cases known of someone who was active in pro life going over to their side as an Abby Johnson type??
We need to start calling the abortion enthusiasts what they are… abortion enthusiasts.
Joe, I tried coining “abortion fans” to no avail and have begun using “abortionista” online. It hasn’t caught on yet. I agree with you; they are not enthusiasts about any other “choice” except abortion.
I can see we need to combat the contraceptive mentality, like never before. We’ve seen over the last 75 years how socially damaging birth control really is. I was reading an article recently about why many women don’t enjoy sex: now it’s just one more thing on their list of things to do.
The idea that we can over react with a “The sky is falling” attitude is absurd. Every time a child is legally killed, the sky is certainly falling for them isn’t it? No matter the politics or arguments, abortion is always killing a baby. A human being that was never even given the chance to do or not do anything deserving of death. That’s it no more argument to be made in my opinion.
“I agree with you; they are not enthusiasts about any other “choice” except abortion.” – that is an untrue statement and an example of how the anti-choice movement does itself no favors.
“We’ve seen over the last 75 years how socially damaging birth control really is.” – I think you mean your assessment is that it’s socially damaging.
“I was reading an article recently about why many women don’t enjoy sex: now it’s just one more thing on their list of things to do.” – interesting, where did you read that?
The anti-choice movement is sowing the seeds of its own destruction.
“Hang on, you’re saying a developing fetus has a higher personhood status than me?”
If the honest intent of admitting rights legislation was really intended to be about womens safety then it would also address some of the more pernicious impediments to gaining those admitting rights.
I don’t accuse the pro-aborts of being “evil”. I don’t acquit them, either. Regardless of their motives, they are in the service of the most heinous evil possible. Let’s not lose sight of the babies, shall we? I fear that in this attempt to “understand each other”, the little ones being murdered will assume a lesser priority in our intentions. And let’s make no mistake about this fact, too. As these folks continue to put themselves at the service of unbridled evil, any idealism they might initially have will give way to a bitterness and hardness. If the picture above was that of Robin, the hardness is all over that face. Let’s pray and love them, but don’t seek their “understanding”. Simply preach the truth.
Well,count me as one who doesn’t give the proverbial fat baby’s butt about how abortion proponents view pro-life tactics….when the fetuscide lobby wets its panties because we aren’t playing “fair”,then that tells me to redouble my efforts….what are they going to do about that?…bust out crying?
This is great – thanks to each of you for stepping out of your zones of comfort to dialogue with each other. It’s refreshing to see people holding deep disagreement treating each other with courtesy and candidness. Would be great to see more of this.
” I fear that in this attempt to “understand each other”, the little ones being murdered will assume a lesser priority in our intentions.”
I disagree, I don’t think dehumanizing and hating the other side (which, I don’t think most pro-lifers try to do. but there’s certainly an undercurrent of hatred I see sometimes) will help the babies, and trying to understand and find common ground with pro-choicers will only help us. Like I’ve said before, no one likes to join movements where they feel like they’re disliked, and no one is going to want to learn more if people are screaming invectives at them or not even attempting to reach out to them on a human level. Pro-choicers are humans, and human kindness towards them is a good thing.
I sometimes feel like some pro-lifers think pro-choicers are a different species almost, lol. They’re just people, and a good chunk of them are those “personally pro-life” types who think abortion is wrong, but have been convinced by good PR from the other side that making abortion illegal is the worst of two evils. Those people are certainly not “evil” or anything close to it. Misguided.
Kudos to both of you for a civil discussion. This is a very rare thing anymore, especially with the abortion debate. As a pro-life advocate myself, I have some friends that are extremely pro-abortion and I find this difference to be a huge chasm between us. It is a bitter sadness for me. What I’ve discovered though while thinking about it is that it’s even more important to maintain that friendship because true friendship is based on unconditional love and it is only love that will ultimately defeat abortion, not the government.
Full disclosure: I personally know and love Robin Marty. She and I spent four years together in college and we remain close.
I enjoyed reading this article, Jill. I could hear Robin’s voice in many of the quotations you attributed to her, and understand her rationale, even if I disagree with it.
The abortion issue is a simple one, in my mind. If the unborn is a human being, then it’s wrong to kill it. Period. If it’s not, then the Government has no business restricting access to abortion. Period. Abortion, therefore, is a secondary issue. It’s not a primary issue. It’s secondary to the metaphysical question of what an embryo or zygote or fetus *is*.
I agree with Robin that the pro-life side (which she steadfastly refuses to call pro-life; she uses the term anti-choice) wins if it convinces the masses that the living, growing thing inside of the womb is a human being. Where I think she misses the boat is that she fails to see that the pro-choice side ALSO has a burden of proof: the opposite burden, as a matter of fact. It is incumbent on the pro-choice side to PROVE that the fetus is NOT a human being. (And, ultimately, this is a case that can’t be made.)
Thank you for sharing that. I am glad that the two of you were able to sit down and chat. And, knowing that we need to convince people that people are people from the moment of conception, then so be it.
“We have cases of those who were pro choice coming to the pro life side. Is there any cases known of someone who was active in pro life going over to their side as an Abby Johnson type??”
I read this and immediately I thought “me, that’s my story”
In high school I was an active pro-life activist. I attended rallies, raised money to go to pro-life charities, picketed Planned Parenthood, the whole nine yards. Abortion is terrible I think so completely, and I will always believe that it is a terrible action for every party involved, the mother, the father (who is almost always left out of discussions) and of course for the unborn baby. My thoughts on the act itself do not change and will not change.
So there I was through a good portion of high school hanging with my pro-life buddies at Tuesday rallies trying to convince of the evils of abortion….and then a couple years later college happened.
Please don’t jump to conclusions and think that because I went to college I became a party girl who drank her nights away and spread my legs for the first boy that smiled at me. In fact I never became a drinker, instead being the go-to friend for rides while still attending parties and having fun. Now being a self-classified nerd girl “parties” meant playing capture the flag in the quad, group board game nights, and small gatherings of friends watching movies. I didn’t find myself in the beds of strange men (or any men for that matter) because I had convictions and they were worth standing up to. I was worth it. My body was the best gift God has given me and parties and alcohol and sex enjoyed by friends weren’t going to be my same vice.
So during my sophomore year when my period cramps became more than I could deal with and I had one that lasted for 26 days it was time to find a doctor. Even while being supported by my parents’ insurance I was still independent and my parents made it clear than I was to pay all of my bills (which I started doing at age 16 when I bought and paid for my first car and the car insurance to cover it). I saw an OB/GYN who stated I needed ortho-tricyclen (a birth control pill, among other uses) to control my menstruation issues.
$50 a month.
Maybe not a lot for some but for a girl supporting herself through college with a part time job and loans to think about, it’s a hefty fee that meant eating lots of ramen noodles or nothing at all.
Enter Planned Parenthood. My roommate recommended the options, I told her of my convictions and how I felt about abortion and we discussed all the other health services they offered including…..
$8 ortho-tricyclen.
I couldn’t say no. $8 a month meant maybe I could eat ramen and a banana each day. Woo! Planned Parenthood at the end of the day offers many services at a low cost that otherwise would not be open, available, or affordable for the average low to middle class Americans. Despite what some may think, these people do exist, they are not all sinners and heathens, and they have a right to know their body is safe, disease free, and healthy. When another college friend’s sister was diagnosed with breast cancer at age 28, Planned Parenthood provided my overly cautious friend Rebecca with an affordable breast exam. When my mother herself was having lower abdomen pain that led to a complete hysterectomy, Planned Parenthood was the place that initially diagnosed her softball sized ovarian cyst.
A magical thing happened in college. I became pro-choice. And though most of my reasoning came from the aforementioned situations, there was still a good share of the night so bright side. Yes, I knew girls that went to PP for birth control due to their sexual lifestyle. Another girl from a sorority I was not a part of but included many close friends was a victim of being drugged and raped in the car of someone she thought was a friend. This did not happen on the way home from a bar after too many drinks, but on the way home from a charity softball game…the date rape drug had been placed in her water bottle offered from her “friend” and when she became pregnant she chose abortion. No matter the terrible circumstance of the situation, I still thought the loss of that baby was devastating. This was not the reason I became pro-choice, I just wanted you to know that I know not everything is sunshine and roses when it comes to this business and sometime the choice to be pro-choice is still difficult. Not everyone who believes in pro-choice and stands against the laws that would make it harder for women to receive affordable health care are baby-hating monsters…it still hurts a lot of us to know that abortions happen. In fact most of my pro-choice friends feel the same way I do. They think it is a terrible thing, and they would never themselves choose to do it, but at the end of the day they don’t believe it is their right to tell another woman that she has to “deal with it” and look into the eyes of her child and constantly be reminded that he was conceived of something hateful and wrong instead of from love. It is not my right to tell that woman she has to worry that her child is going to spend months in potential foster care situation because of the lack of adoptive parents willing to take on a child of a rape victim due to lack of knowledge of the health background of the father. It is not my right to choose for that woman….and it’s not your either.
High school me would have thousands of objections to this. But at the end of the day the objections belonged to me, and I was not the one put into the situation. Now that I am 26 and a little wiser than I was 10 years ago I realize that although these issues plague all of us, turn some of the most beautiful people I know into hate-filled fighters-of-the-cause, and create a world full of people who think it is their right to cast the first stone….I have realized that is not the person I am.
I want the mother with 4 kids and 2 job who barely sees her husband due to both needing to work to support their family know that if she wants to go on birth control she can do that, because that $8 a month is much more affordable than a months worth of diapers and formula and wondering how she can afford time off work when he 2 jobs don’t offer paid maternity leave.
I want the 45 year old woman to be able to get regular exams to monitor her health to make sure that she catches something like breast, ovarian, or cervical cancer before she is able to stop it from going past the point of a cure.
I want the woman in Texas having pains in her lower abdomen to be able to get the medical attention she needs without having to drive 14 hours to the closest clinic that provides affordable women’s health screening.
I want the unwed teenager who has found herself in an unfortunate situation know that she has the option to choose what is best for herself and her unborn child….I don’t want her to get an abortion because at the heart of everything I truly believe it is one of the worst choices to make in the situation…but I don’t want her to put herself into danger and choose abortion in a world where the option is forbidden by laws and still occurs with the worst outcome for the mother when she succumbs to infection due to an unlicensed procedure.
I want to be pro-life, but when I look at how the lives of beautiful, vivacious, and wonderful women all around me would be altered in a negative way due to banning and control of women’s health facilities I don’t see a world where my convictions and common sense can co-exist.
I just wanted everyone out there who is pro-life to know that at the end of the day every pro-choice person out there is in favor of or approves of the notion of abortion, as I once thought, but what we do share is a mutual love for each other and the personal rights each person has to protect their autonomy and their health. What we all share is a love of all women: sisters, mother, aunts, mommies, grandmas, cousins, friends, and future generations of women yet to come. I think it’s time to stand together and take a second to share that common ground.
It’s not premised on ‘human being’ William. It’s premised on ‘personhood’ and whether the supposed ‘personhood’ of a developing fetus trumps that of a woman.
Reality, the issue isn’t whether the personhood of an unborn child “trumps” that of a woman. Nobody disagrees that the woman is a person. The issue isn’t her personhood. It’s her liberty. Whether she is (or should be) free to kill the unborn. If the unborn is a human being (person), then she should not. Because one person’s life interest trumps another person’s liberty. If, however, the unborn is not a human being (person), then she should.
(This hierarchy of rights, by the way–life, liberty, property–is exactly why slavery is wrong despite the slave owners’ “valid” purchase of the slaves. The interest that the slave owners had was a property interest. But the slaves themselves had a liberty interest. And one person’s liberty interest trumps another person’s property interest.)
Sorry folks, noticed some typos…most are just simple proofreading mistakes where I missed a letter here or there. Wanted to point out my last paragraph should state ”I just wanted everyone out there who is pro-life to know that at the end of the day NOT every pro-choice person out there is in favor of or approves of the notion of abortion, as I once thought”
I think you may have missed the point William. The unborn are human but not ‘persons’ in comparison to a woman. The liberty of someone who is exceeds that of something which may be.
The same criteria which shows us that it was wrong to press people into slavery tells us that a woman should be free to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.
Reality, so you agree that abortion kills a human being?
William, if I had a dollar for every time I’ve said “abortion terminates a developing fetus of the human species”…..
(And, for the record, yes, the same criteria which shows us that it is wrong to press people into slavery tells us that a woman should be free to terminate an unwanted pregnancy…if and only if the living, growing thing in her womb is not a human being.)
Reality, I’m not asking for rhetoric or for you to make a dollar. I’m asking a simple question: do you agree that abortion kills a human being?
William, I have no intention of starting a game of semantic personal interpretations of a thousand googled dictionary definitions with you.
A human fetus is of the human species.
A fetus is not a person.
You can wander the tightrope in between to your hearts content :-)
Reality, the fact that you refuse to answer a simple question proves otherwise.
That you choose to believe that there are human beings who aren’t persons is amazing. All human beings are persons (though there are some persons that are not human beings).
Even by your own (strained) admission, though, abortion kills a human being. Some folks suggest that it’s okay to kill *those* human beings. I find that sad. And dangerous.
Peace to you.
I will, though, reluctantly, give you your due. You are intellectually honest. You admit that abortion kills a human being, and you choose to justify that killing. You don’t hide from the scientific fact of the unborn’s nature. I wish that more pro-choice folks followed your lead.
Again, peace.
“the fact that you refuse to answer a simple question proves otherwise.” – otherwise to what?
You are the one who keeps speaking of ‘human beings’, don’t tell me what I ‘believe’ or ‘admit’ in regards to that.
“You admit that abortion kills a human being” – I did no such thing.
“You don’t hide from the scientific fact of the unborn’s nature.” – no, but you don’t appear to have grasped what that is.
I don’t appreciate being ‘verballed’.
William, if I had a pro-choice website I might link it to my monicker. I don’t have a prochoice website. But I, personally, would feel unethical if I linked my business website to my monicker. But that’s just me :-)
I stand corrected. You ARE playing games.
If you don’t believe that an unborn is a human being, it would have been pretty easy for you to say “no, I don’t agree with that”.
Don’t play games.
Excellent commentary. Some thoughts:
Robin states that there is no common ground to be found on this issue (aside from both movements experiencing infighting, as well as each one objecting to the other side’s tactics). I must disagree. There are areas where people on both sides agree (for example that forced abortions are wrong, and that it’s tragic when a woman dies of an illegal abortion). Many others can be easily found. I have personally had productive discussions with supporters of legalized abortion (including a doctor that performs them) by identifying areas of agreement and using them to resolve disagreement. Avoiding the hard questions and focusing only on agreeing is unhelpful, but a mutual starting point is essential to working toward discovering the truth. Perhaps Robin and/or Jill could benefit from reading Steve Wagner’s Common Ground Without Compromise, which many pro-life advocates (and pro-choice advocates) have found useful for raising the level of dialogue.
I also found it interesting that Robin said that pro-lifers win the day if they win on the status of the unborn. Apparently she doesn’t think that the bodily rights argument is likely to be an effective approach. I must say that the prospect of birth control being in jeopardy seems like fear-mongering, though (even if it were true) it wouldn’t justify abortion being legal. It will be interesting to see how well this strategy works out.
Nice. Thanks for the good discussion. It is discussions like this that allow people to open up, let down their guard, and more seriously consider the issue.
Who DOES NOT have access to contraception??
PP is the only place that provides access?
good grief
Waaaaaaaalllllmaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrtttttttttt.
We know what goes on in abortion mills. We know that killing happens.
Two fully alive human beings go in. One comes out. Well except when the woman dies along with her child.
Nobody buys the shiny, happy lies that PP is FOR women and HELPS women and LOVES women!!
“A magical thing happened in college.” Yes, that’s the scientific basis for being pro-choice. Observe, how Planned Parenthood successfully lured you in with their cheap birth control pills (subsidized, Kristin, by my tax dollars on a federal, state, and local level). Those pills are paid for by all of us, you included.
Now, you, like many abortion proponents, don’t particularly like abortion. But you need to stop fooling yourself right now. “Choice” is the choice to dismember a tiny human being. Those graphic images that probably disgust you? That’s the reality of what “choice” you support. A baby conceived in rape? You hit PP’s best marketing points, Kristin, but guess what? Thousands of families would be more than happy to raise a newborn infant regardless of how he was conceived.
The miracle? Conception. From a single cell grows a complex organism, that is a human being. It’s awesome. Is it all sunshine and rainbows? No, but pro-choicers often think they are the first to discover that child-bearing is difficult. So are a lot of things in life. We don’t kill everyone who poses a difficulty, so why start with the small and vulnerable? Choose life again. It’s never too late.
Maybe all the obese people can get their bariatric surgery at Walmart.
“The topic of contraception is necessary to be discussed. We are focusing more on birth control not because abortion isn’t a winning issue but because we never thought birth control was in jeopardy. That’s frightening to us.” Now I am surprised someone like Marty who could be considered a leader and not a follower honestly believes this. Where have they gotten the sense that it is in jeopardy? My sense is they picked a fight over public funding of it and they were the aggressors, as they always have been on that issue. Contraception is more widespread in our country and more accessible than at any point in the history of mankind. Even a doctor in a Catholic hospital harangued my wife about not going on the pill before our baby’s umbilical cord fell off.
“We don’t kill everyone who poses a difficulty.”
Most of the time we just throw society’s “difficults” in jail or let them kill each other off with guns. These lives don’t matter, though, because they aren’t living inside a woman’s body.
Jill, I suppose my difficulty is that I cannot concede that pro-aborts have good intentions when they have ZERO regard for the life of the child and are perfectly okay with dismembering a baby or killing the baby in any way necessary to satisfy a woman’s “rights.” That, to me, is not good intentions. That is violent and cruel.
Where am I wrong?
Marty really lost me when she compared thwarting the democratic process in Texas to showing an image of abortion in public. Not. The. Same.
And using hyperbole by saying we “show them to five-year-olds.” Because that’s totally our purpose. Right.
I’m thinking that despite the fact that she isn’t shrieking, Marty is not quite as cerebral as she would like to portray herself, and those comments reveal that fact. Just my take.
” Observe, how Planned Parenthood successfully lured you in with their cheap birth control pills (subsidized, Kristin, by my tax dollars on a federal, state, and local level). Those pills are paid for by all of us, you included. ”
Less of your money went to my birth control pills than to the countless women without access to contraception who have had unplanned pregnancies and then leech off the state to pay for everything when they cannot afford a child they did not plan for.
” Who DOES NOT have access to contraception??
PP is the only place that provides access?
good grief
Waaaaaaaalllllmaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrtttttttttt.”
Yes you can get condoms at Walmart, but that doesn’t help the woman who is raped, the woman whose husband or boyfriend refuses to wear or tricks her into thinking he is wearing a condom when he is not. And as I pointed out many girls I know have gone on birth control due to personal health issues and not due to promiscuity.
They think it is a terrible thing, and they would never themselves choose to do it, but at the end of the day they don’t believe it is their right to tell another woman that she has to “deal with it” and look into the eyes of her child and constantly be reminded that he was conceived of something hateful and wrong instead of from love.
The above is one of the big difference between the two sides.
At the end of the day, prolifers know it is our right and our obligation to tell another woman that SHE CAN “deal with it”. Our side is the side that sees the strength in women, encourages them, raises the bar for them and trusts them enough to know that they can endure difficult circumstances. We point out that out of hateful and wrong circumstances, love will rise up and survive and that killing innocent humans will never bring peace.
I think the pro-choice position needs to be discussed in a way that can be taken to churches – embracing faith, family, and community.
I would like to hear an example of the way Robin would discuss her support of the killing of family and community members to people in a prolife church. Some faith communities take the 5th Commandment literally. Deleting this Commandment from our Bibles is not an option to many of us.
Sometimes I see everyone on the other side as a big lump of evil people, even though I pray to see them as Jesus does.
I pray to see abortion supporters through Christ’s heart as well, Jill, and this is a constant struggle for me and an area I need to work on. Thank you for your example. Your meeting with Robin reminded me of this Bible verse: If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Thanks for thinking ahead of everyone else Jill. You are one of my inspirations in this battle.
God bless you!
Jill’s meeting with Robin also reminded me of this poem that was sent to me by someone who knows me all too well:
I was shocked, confused, bewildered as I entered Heaven’s door,
Not by the beauty of it all, nor the lights of it’s decor.
But it was the folks in Heaven who made me sputter and gasp-
The thieves, the liars, the sinners, the alcoholics, the trash.
There stood the kid from seventh grade who swiped my lunch money twice.
Next to him was my old neighbor who never said anything nice.
Herb, who I always thought was rotting away in hell,
Was sitting pretty on cloud nine, looking incredibly well.
I nudged Jesus, “Hey! What’s the deal? I would love to hear your take.
How’d all these sinners get up here? God must’ve made a mistake.
And why’s everyone so quiet, so somber? Give me a clue.”
“Hush, my child,” said He. ”They’re all in shock.
No one thought they’d be seeing you.”
Most of the time we just throw society’s “difficults” in jail or let them kill each other off with guns. These lives don’t matter, though, because they aren’t living inside a woman’s body.
Oh, look. Another straw man. Claiming pro-lifers don’t care about anyone else except the dreaded, parasitic fetuses? Aren’t you tired of your own crap yet?
When the atheists stop fighting against the Christian prison ministries, you just be sure to let us know.
Yes you can get condoms at Walmart, but that doesn’t help the woman who is raped, the woman whose husband or boyfriend refuses to wear or tricks her into thinking he is wearing a condom when he is not.
Please also let us know how killing children unrapes or untricks women. Thanks.
Robin says:
“People who weren’t necessarily engaged are paying attention. The public is becoming more aware that abortion isn’t a settled issue, which many believed was until now.”
A major goal of the pro-life movement has been to get people talking about abortion again. Or, to put it into Robin’s terms, “to unsettle the issue.”
Robin answered, “Your side wins if you convince everyone there is a baby at the point of conception.
We believe that the vast majority of people already know this. That is why we are not afraid to have people talking about it.
The issues that social conservatives are loudest on are mostly related to the female body. That’s a fact. Also, spare us your tiresome BS about Christian “ministries,” which solely exist to exploit poor and disenfranchised folks to the benefit of the proselytizer.
Also, spare us your tiresome BS about Christian “ministries,” which solely exist to exploit poor and disenfranchised folks to the benefit of the proselytizer.
LOL. Because prisoners pay Christian ministers the same amount that teenagers pay me to preach the Good News to them.
Dear Kristen,
If you would like to be prolife again please spend some time at a pregnancy resource centre or praying in front of a clinic.
Your arguments are still primarily theoretical, and although in most situations the choice to choose life is difficult, it is the right choice. No one says to the pregnant mother “deal with it” except pro-choice people. Prolifers help the Mom and the child. I am not sure where you got your misconception about prolifers as people who want to impose their will onto Mothers. The reality is that prolifers want to protect the life of both the Mother and her unborn baby, so that an abortion doctor doesn’t impose his surgical instruments on the unborn baby’s skull. This difference in understanding the goal of prolifers is very important and can be easily overlooked and forgotten. You only need to apply your “live and let live” philosophy to bio-Mom, and you will recognize that bio-Mom should not be imposing her will on the life of her unborn child. The very possibility of abortion and prochoice rhetoric permits mothers to consider their unborn children as enemies. This in itself is wrong and provides very little hope to these mothers.
Finally, you might want to re-examine how you see children conceived in rape. I suggest you read the stories of Rebecca Kiessling and Ryan Bomberger. You will see that the circumstances of a person’s conception does not determine their worth. The next time you think of defending the right to kill the unborn children conceived in rape please remember Rebecca and Ryan and reconsider what you are about to advocate for.
“There’s no such thing as common ground,” Robin agreed, “when we believe this is a civil rights issue for women, and you believe it’s a civil rights issue for the unborn. I don’t think we will ever agree.”
This I think is the massive problem of both sides. You cannot separate the two…
Kel, you’re right. “showing photos of aborted unborn children” and “screaming to interrupt the legislative process” aren’t the same thing. They’re nothing alike. Robin’s point, though, was that both sides believe that they are JUSTIFIED in taking those measures because of what is at stake. For the pro-lifer, she is justified in showing the images because she has to convince the world that babies are being slaughtered. For the pro-choicer, she is justified in screaming to interrupt the legislative process because unjust restrictions on a basic and Constitutional right are threatening her civil rights.
The REALLY interesting thing to take from Robin’s comments, IMO, are not the analogy she draws. Rather, it is the offense she takes at the images. If the aborted unborn is merely a “clump of cells” or a “product of conception” or a “part of the mother” or a “parasite” (all terms I’ve seen expressly used by pro-choicers), then there is nothing offensive in showing photos of it. The ONLY way it can be ‘offensive’ to show photos is if the unborn is what pro-lifers say she is–a human being.
kristen I have to say it your story sounds like total BS to me. Haven’t you ever heard of FQHCs clinics and sliding fee scale clinics? Many FQHCs have federal free or sliding fee programs for mammograms and cerivcal cancer screening for poor women. Haven’t you heard of Wal-Mart which can usually provide generic BCPs for about $11 a month? I have a friend who is a Certified Nurse Midwife who has taken care of poor women for years (takes Medicaid and sliding fee patients as well as private insurance patients) providing pelvic exams, breast exams, gyne care, etc. for years and she would have sent you to Wal-mart for generic hormones to treat your medical condition. The only thing that PP provides that FQHCs and sliding fee practices don’t provide is ABORTIONS-ON-DEMAND- i.e. dead babies. Not sure I am buying your story sounds too flaky “I am really pro-life wouldn’t have an abortion myself, have lived a virginal pure life myself but now I really love PP”. I do believe someone who is quasi- pro-life could turn but not buying all of your ”I was a picketing, baby-loving, card-carrying prolifer” stuff.
All, I’m proud of all the level-headed comments, even when in disagreement. I am fairly confident that were Robin to post my thoughts on her site, comments wouldn’t be as mature. I say that based on lots of experience posting comments on their sites, including RH.
Jen, the point of my post was not to excuse abortion proponents. It was simply to show the humanity of one.
As I wrote, I more often than not think the worst of those on the other side. The tightrope I’m trying to figure out how to walk is condemning their actions while keeping the door open to communicate and convert. I’m no pro-life Wallenda in that regard. But in personal communications I try to keep the rhetoric down so they might hear my points.
I have found Robin to be equally desirous for civil, respectful conversation. We still get into debates, don’t get me wrong. Only yesterday we got into it on Twitter on the topic of contraception. But it doesn’t get personal, which is refreshing.
Great article, and a wonderful demonstration of actual tolerance and open mindedness from both of you.
Prolifer L, I agree Kristen’s story is a little hard to believe, but don’t forget how attractive and alluring the prochoice message is. Basically, the prochoice message is: “Come over here. Think like us – you will have no worries and no guilt. You will get to achieve your dreams. All of your problems will go away if you listen to us.” The prochoice message is sickeningly sweet and easy to embrace. It frees people from having moral responsibilities and reassures them that it is right to put their interests first before everyone else’s. It is an appeal to the ego that not many can resist, especially if it is repeated often, and especially if the person hearing it believes she has no other support. I was a prolifer who became pro-choice for a while.
Human structures, like governments, will not end abortion. Infanticide and abortion is an unfortunate part of human falleness. It isn’t going anywhere. That doesn’t mean we should have to pay for it, but government is not going to solve this.
Those who are at the clinics counseling are the only ones who have an impact. This is a matter of personal conversion. Want to save lives? Counsel women. Educate the [very] young. And for heaven’s sake, preach saving sex until marriage but provide safety nets and crisis pregnancy centers for those who make mistakes.
Those who are at the clinics counseling are the only ones who have an impact.
Baloney. It is the combined efforts of all prolifers that will end legal abortion.
You can hope, Praxedes, but it will not end abortion. Legal abortion? Perhaps, and I hope so. But it won’t stop the killing, and we all know it. Murder is illegal, yet people are still killed each and everyday. Yes, let us fight the good fight, but I am not placing my hopes in government or making abortion illegal by way of government. I say this as one who has fought to change the federal and state stance on abortion. But, in reality, this is the easy side of the fight. It is button pushing from afar. We need boots on the ground – on the front lines. We need more crisis pregnancy centers. We need better families. We need better education about the failure and dangers of contraception and premarital sex. We need moms and dads and, I firmly believe, faith as well. This is where the fight is. Government grandstanding and passing bills is not going to win the real war which is fought in a woman’s head.
It is still about each and every woman. If we are not there, we are not really trying.
William J. Dennison II says:
July 10, 2013 at 2:02 am
Full disclosure: I personally know and love Robin Marty.
Wow. You know a lot of people.
(Check CPS for the ChesterFest thread, Big Ninjee!)
Kristin, as a former adoption social worker with over 10 years of experience in domestic (U.S.) and international adoptions, I can tell you that thousands of couples would adopt an infant as quickly as possible, even without a full medical history. Couples do so all the time. It is in fact, much more common to have little or no medical information from both parents, than to have a full history from both.
Uh, Augustine, I was responding to your statement where you said, “Those who are at the clinics counseling are the only ones who have an impact.”
I was calling baloney on that statement; there are many people who are having a positive impact who have never counseled at a clinic.
Murder is illegal, yet people are still killed each and everyday. Yes, let us fight the good fight, but I am not placing my hopes in government or making abortion illegal by way of government.
Yeah, we should probably give people a safe, legal clinic in which to murder born humans as well. Maybe legalizing rape will decrease its number too.
Kristin, I would rather have my tax dollars pay for an infant’s formula and diapers than to have my tax dollars used to dismember the same baby. Why don’t you address the fact that abortion kills a human child in the most brutal way possible, instead of trying to deflect about how much money we’ll save today by killing off the next generation?
“I stand corrected. You ARE playing games.” – you’re the one who asked questions and made claims based on things that I simply had not said. That’s not a highly amusing game.
“If you don’t believe that an unborn is a human being, it would have been pretty easy for you to say “no, I don’t agree with that”. – and I told you that I have no intention of starting a game of semantic personal interpretations of a thousand googled dictionary definitions with you.
“Don’t play games.” – I’m not the one trying to play tricky little prosecutor :-)
Peace to you, Reality. I’m not biting.
I just hope she doesn’t use her story to somehow take this entire website down. She traded alot of really good information for that on-the-record-interview. But her line was drawn-abortifacents disguised as birth control is the line in the sand.
Reality: “The same criteria which shows us that it was wrong to press people into slavery tells us that a woman should be free to terminate an unwanted pregnancy.”
Not really. The slaveholder is the woman who ascribes some fractional human value to her unborn child. The pro-lifer simply expects the woman to behave apropos of a full human, and not express the inhumanity that consists in killing your own child in the womb.
Women do not become fully free by treating their unborn child like chattel — like a slave so useless she’ll pay someone else to take it off her hands and destroy it.
BlueVelvet: “The issues that social conservatives are loudest on are mostly related to the female body. That’s a fact.”
What of it? George Bush was just in Africa working hard on women’s cancer issues. That’s a fact.
We might just as well say that the main issue of concern to social conservatives is the protection of unborn human life. You can’t advocate for that without implicating a woman’s body — but yammering as if the REASON they’re advocating for the unborn is because there’s some more fundamental agenda to control women’s bodies, is ridiculous. Or paranoid. Or both.
“I’m not biting.” – I’m not the one that was baiting :-)
Yes really. The woman knows that, unlike those pressed into slavery, a fetus does not possess the attributes of personhood. She knows that her personhood far exceeds that which may be nascent.
Women do not become fully free by being treated like a chattel — like a slave pressed into service no matter the personal cost.
“We might just as well say that the main issue of concern to social conservatives is the protection of unborn human life.” – yeah, much higher priority than bothering about the poor, the homeless, the sick, the starving.
“but yammering as if the REASON they’re advocating for the unborn is because there’s some more fundamental agenda to control women’s bodies, is true. Or ‘traditional’. Or both.
Slaveholders “knew” that slaves weren’t fully human as well. And millions of pro-life women know the opposite of what you claim “the woman” knows (definite articles, archetypes — nice epic touch there, Reality).
“yeah, much higher priority than bothering about the poor, the homeless, the sick, the starving”
Oh knock off with the trolling. Catholics (of which I’m not, but they take flack in these parts so I’ll credit ’em) serve more of the poor and the homeless and the sick and the starving than Planned Parenthood does. So screw that kind of idiotic chatter from you. A close friend feeds scores of homeless every week through wise relationships with various businesses. It’s within our power to do these things, and we do them. No one’s out there severing the spinal cords of the poor, the homeless, the sick, or the starving. Protecting them from unjust death is not the wolf howling at our culture’s door. Abortion is. The assault on life has to begin somewhere — and it’s no surprise that it begins with the most defenseless and voiceless. Nor should it be a surprise that those who have always advocated for the weak among us, should advocate for the weakest.
What do you care most about, Reality? Fine. I’ll then accuse you of not giving a rip about any number of other causes. Then I’ll have matched wits with you on this one.
Geez…
“Slaveholders “knew” that slaves weren’t fully human as well.” – switching terminology doesn’t make for a consistent discussion rasqual.
“Oh knock off with the trolling.” – what trolling? You stated “We might just as well say that the main issue of concern to social conservatives is the protection of unborn human life.”
That’s got nothing to do with what catholics or PP may or may not do. Apart from which, PP do, in part, serve the poor and the sick.
“Abortion is the wolf howling at our culture’s door” – dear me, not another creative writing student.
“The assault on life has to begin somewhere” – why? Says who?
“What do you care most about, Reality” – people rasqual. The people of the world. The billions of born people, many of whom are at risk of war, disease, poverty or discrimination.The disabled, the less fortunate, those who can’t access education.
“Then I’ll have matched wits with you on this one.” – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fW7MoINvQc
Gosh, ‘ose a geezer den guvnor!
Nice. Reality cares about billions of people. Tough to compete with you on that. I’ll just concede! You’ve ennobled yourself beyond measure. Christ himself doubtless doffs his crown of thorns in your direction.
Seriously, dude. Give me a frakkin’ break.
Dude! I’m quite sure that you care about those people pretty much as much as I do.
But you’re the one who stated what social conservatives consider to be the main issue of concern. I just think that the folk I mentioned are at least as important if not more.
Noble or ennobled is something I would never consider of myself – there are greater issues of concern.
Seriously dude, give yourself a break.
Reality: “Noble or ennobled is something I would never consider of myself”
Obviously. Your expectation is that others will indulge that consideration.
End.
“Your expectation is that others will indulge that consideration.” – I couldn’t give a toss what others may think of me. I’m not the one who got needlessly offended by misinterpreting something.
Finale!
The billions of born people, many of whom are at risk of war, disease, poverty or discrimination.The disabled, the less fortunate, those who can’t access education.
Abortion was supposed to take care of the above troubles. How long before abortion brings peace?
A homeless prolifer is more fortunate than a super-rich proabort.
Nice to see you around here again, rasqual.
Let’s see.
Which nations have relatively free access to abortion.
Which nations don’t.
Which nations don’t suffer much in the way of famine, disease and war.
Which nations do.
Speaks for itself really.
I would like to belatedly address something in Kristin’s initial comment:
She mentioned how she began having trouble with her menstrual cycle and went to a gyn that recommended a birth control pill. Now, it slid past me until I remembered about one of my relatives almost the same age as I. She had problems that resulted in a hysterectomy. What or who failed her? I think her doctors failed her. Instead of trying to resolve the problem for real, or even diagnose what the root cause might be, it seemed they just gave her a prescription and sent her packing. I think that women need to be concerned about their health, and I think we need to stop settling for second best or less. We deserve real health care, and while the abortion advocates are taking up time and attention over birth control, they are ignoring the real health problems that women face. Gynecologists aren’t the only ones who (I think) lazily offer a prescription rather than dig in and find out what is causing the condition. I think this also happens in mental health and cardiac health and more. For example, many medication doses are based on the average size of an average male. A great deal of medical research is done on males and the data applied to females, whose bodies are DIFFERENT. I know too many people on psychotropic drugs. I think many of them are overmedicated. I think that women deserve better health care than what we are getting. And I feel that many doctors (and I speak from my own personal experience too) are too busy and seeing too many patients in too short of a time, to really CARE for us and really give our health the attention and scrutiny needed to get at the root of some of our health problems. I think that feminists today have hijacked the entire issue of women’s health for the sake of birth control pills and abortion, and it’s not benefitting us. It’s not helping us, and in fact it’s hurting us. Just had to get that off my (not overly medicated) chest.
Kristin: It is possible to support birth control without supporting Planned Parenthood or abortion.
I believe in contraception, but I find Planned Parenthood’s efforts to justify late term abortions horrifying. Even if everything else they did was marvelous, I cannot condone an organization that thinks it is ok to crush the skull of a 5 month old.
I would encourage anyone who is against abortion but supports birth control to look at the organization All Our Lifes: http://www.allourlives.org/
They advocate for all NON VIOLENT choices – including birth control, but not abortion.
“I know too many people on psychotropic drugs. I think many of them are overmedicated. ”
I agree with your basic sentiment, ninek, but I think people should be careful. Depression and other mental illnesses are just that, illnesses, and sometimes medications are the only thing that can keep people functional. Every time I’ve been too poor to afford my anti-depressants I end up suicidal again after a week or two without them, even if everything else in my life is fine. And it’s not a poor diet, lack of exercise that causes it, or the other things that people like to claim will treat depression, I’m fit and eat really healthy. Sometimes meds are what is needed and I get the concern with overmedication, but I do think it’s quite dangerous to claim people are overmedicated when you aren’t their doctor and aren’t involved in their healthcare.
And about using hormonal birth control for physical health issues, don’t you think it’s possible that sometimes synthetic hormones are needed for people with hormonal imbalances and the like? Sure, sometimes doctors might be treating it as a “quick fix” I guess, but I haven’t seen scientific evidence that it’s not necessary for every single female health issue, that there’s a better way for every single issue. I think people should make sure they are looking at the evidence for claims like this.
Kristin, is an infant a product or a person? Products are often returned or discarded if not “perfect” – people however, are inherently valuable. This is why many couples are willing to adopt a child with little or no medical history from the biological parents and to adopt special needs children. Is it risky? Yes. Is it worth the risk? Ask them; they will tell you over and over – “yes, he [or she] is so worth it!” Here is an example: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/07/13/hundreds-answer-church-facebook-plea-to-adopt-baby-with-down-syndrome/?test=latestnews
Sometimes meds are what is needed and I get the concern with overmedication, but I do think it’s quite dangerous to claim people are overmedicated when you aren’t their doctor and aren’t involved in their healthcare.
I agree that sometimes meds are what is needed but I also agree with what ninek said that being, “I think many of them are overmedicated. ” Your medical issues are yours alone, Jack, but they are not everyone else’s who have been prescribed medicines.
Some doctors believe in meds more than others. There is also the issue of money being made in medications. I have seen children who are overmedicated because it makes them easier for adults to deal with but the meds can also cover up some of the issues that should be looked at like diet, exercise, counseling, learning disabilities, work/sleep issues and/or family issues. Sometimes a patient becoming involved in community and volunteering can be the answer.
I know a woman who was prescribed meds for years for depression. She went to her doctor after her miscarriage and told him she was sad about her loss. He didn’t talk to her about finding a support group or diet or exercise or anything else. He just kept taking her money and refilling her prescription year after year.
We probably all know adults who have been prescribed meds for pain and the underlying causes of the pain were never addressed but the patient did become addicted to pain medication.
We need to be careful and proactive in our own and our loved ones health, especially our children’s and remember to not blindly trust doctors (or any medical professionals) just because they are doctors.