Stanek weekend question: Thoughts on Texas and the status of abortion in the US?
I ended up spending most of yesterday on Twitter, relaying information to and from the Texas State Capitol. There the Senate was debating an omnibus pro-life bill, which eventually passed and is on its way to Governor Rick Perry for his anticipated signature.
The bill includes a ban on abortions after 20 weeks, when babies are known to feel pain, a requirement that abortion clinics upgrade to standards of Ambulatory Surgical Clinics, a requirement that abortion clinics follow FDA guidelines for administering the abortion pill and also that a doctor actually give the pill, and that abortionists have privileges at nearby hospitals.
It all sounds straightforward enough. But abortion proponents, claiming the new law would close all but 5 of the state’s 47 abortion clinics, riled their masses, and the situation became raucous, to say the least.
As the vote drew near, our Students for Life of America group reported being asked by police to hold up in a representative’s office for their own safety….
Here is eery video taken by Stand True’s Bryan Kemper toward the end of the night. It certainly sounds demonic to me…
[youtube]http://youtu.be/v5_velCAmSo[/youtube]
This should come as no surprise. Last week abortion proponents were caught on tape chanting “Hail, satan,” in response to a post-abortive mother’s testimony. This battle is much larger than what we see. Yesterday more blasphemous signs were spotted, so vulgar I can’t print them. Here’s one I can print but which made me very sad. This girl, pictured with Planned Parenthood CEO Cecile Richards, has no idea how lucky she is to be alive….
The people we are dealing with are blind or misled. The spiritual forces we are dealing with are the darkest out there. We must remember to keep the two opponents separate, praying for the first and praying against the second.
Robin Marty of RH Reality Check told me, “I do think there has been a significant shift…. There is a sense that abortion access could be changed forever.”
I think what we saw played out in Texas, including a propensity on the other side to throw feces and urine, is a sense of abortion doom. They realize they’re losing the unfettered freedom to kill preborn children.
Your thoughts on it all?
[Top photo via yahoo.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Their antics hurt their image greatly and showed desperation. Abortion industry is being uncovered layer by layer and being rejected. You cAn tell by their chants they have no message so they distract by hysteria. They are losing and know it.
I agree there are encouraging trends. Two caveats, though:
There are a considerable number of persons that have a stake in unrestricted abortion. Events in Texas indicate that. These persons are impervious to facts and logic.
A collateral issue is the so-called “hookup culture”. This produces persons who have a stake in unrestricted abortion. The “Brochoice” blogger is a good example of the type.
All this is to say that the pro-life movement faces a complex task.
Both profound comments, thanks.
John, you’ve helped me have a bit of an epiphany. We face two battles, one against the abortion industry and all who gain from it, and the other against the “hookup culture,” as you call it.
Of course, the abortion industry feeds the hookup culture with misinformation. The collective church doesn’t help when it condones contraception sometimes (in marriage) and doesn’t take us all the way back to embracing the sex act as potentially procreational.
This brings us to other collateral issues: the over-population myth and liberal feminism, which disallows fulfillment in raising children.
Yes, we face a complex task.
Perhaps once a year or so I seem to ask some semblance of this question. I think it’s because each new major event, such as Texas, opens my eyes a bit more to the clutches abortion has on us, and the depth of demonic investment in abortion.
I remember my first real awakening came by watching Kansas, seeing how difficult it was to prosecute Tiller and PP. The corrupt political system invested in abortion – in a Midwest state such as Kansas – not New York or California, was my first eye-opener.
I think Texas has opened my eyes to another level of the fight. Just when I think I understand abortion’s depth of depravity, but I realize I don’t really have a clue.
Jesus told his disciples they couldn’t heal the epileptic boy because his sort of possession required both belief and prayer to exorcise. I think the pro-life movement has gotten better at prayer, particularly due to 40 Days, but we need to get on our knees much, much more.
The kindly put “roudy” demonstrators in the statehouse along with their viles of feces is a logical consequence of a culture of abortion and death—violence against the unborn begets a breakdown in civility and reason. AOL news headlines this morning said Texas passed an “extreme” abortion bill, something that confirms once again that the real enemy we face in trying to educate our country on abortion is the MSM.
Okay, so the pro-aborts acted like animals in Austin. Not unusual. Nonetheless, the proposed law they were fighting over remains an immoral, unconstitutional bill. The Texas Code now describes a class of sub-humans who are not accorded Fifth or Fourteenth Amendment equal protection for their supreme God-given, unalienable right, the right to live. Which not only contradicts the U.S. Constitution, it contradicts their own Code. Arbitrary, capricious, unreasonable, illogical, lawless law-making. ~Thomas Hoefling
As the explosion of knowledge appears, so too will the nature of the people engaging in child sacrifice.
Your thoughts on it all?
I have only one thought: BE NOT AFRAID!
We endured the same angry mob in Wisconsin, when union thugs threatened our State Capitol. The people of Wisconsin asserted that our legislators are doing our will — we re-elected them in state-wide recall elections.
Likewise, the people of Texas will not tolerate being oppressed by threatening mobs. The pro-aborts have shown the violence in their souls, and the people of Texas will respond with even more pro-life resolve.
The Truth is in the Light. Be Not Afraid!
Del – I was thinking of the angry mob in Wisconsin – and how much press attention it got. Yet not even Fox spent significant time reporting from the scene in TX, inexplicably preferring to obsess over the Trayvon Martin/George Zimmerman trial. The reason why, of course, is the topic was abortion.
As the orange shirted chanted, “Give choice a chance.” I thought, we gave choice 40 years of chance. What has it gotten us? Forty years worth of dead babies and broken, hurting, people.
I rejoice and praise God for hearing the prayers of His saints and answering those prayers, I also continue to grieve for those babies that Texas has allowed to remain legal to kill, our fight cannot stop at this level, however this taste of success gives me hope and makes me all the more adamant to continue to educate, open eyes, and shed light upon the evil and darkness of abortion.
Status of abortion in the US:
It appears to me that the public is settling into a long term compromise – that is, abortion is a bad thing outside of around 20 weeks, and that abortion should be permissible inside 20 weeks.
The twenty week line is more of a new thing, in terms of polling and the line being drawn there- but gallup has been measuring it for years, and it’s pretty clear that a strong majority says that abortion should be legal in the first, and that abortion should be illegal in the second.
I think the courts will generally settle into the 20 week line – and the added publicity and public votes will settle the American populace into that split.
So happy to share a state with you Del!! Onward WI!
I was thinking of Madison too.
The contrast between prolifers and proaborts could not be more STARK thanks to Texas!
Jars of urine and feces, used tampons, paint, bricks and one gun were confiscated from the lovers of abortion.
THANK YOU LORD FOR REVEALING THEIR DARK HEARTS!!!
Texas introduced us to all this 40 years ago, by the grace of God it looks like they are trying to fix it. I got no good guidance about abortion issues when I was growing up and it was made worse as my parents essentially forced me to abort my first child. I refuse to allow that mindset to be given to my children. I keep telling my children that I am confident that they will see the overturning of Roe v Wade. Texas gave a shot of confidence to that statement.
First, just a shout out of encouragement to the Personhood Camp of the Pro Life movement. I believe in supporting all of the Pro Life warriors fighting on all fronts of this violently contested war to save innocent life. But if there was any doubt as to the strategic value of incremental gains versus “all or nothing” tactics, it should be totally dispelled. One only has to consider the vehemence and ferocity with which the pro child killing side has fought the passage these Pro Life measures to know that they’re very damaging to their culture of death.
I’ve studied spiritual warfare for years and came across an interview with a former satanist from Africa where witchcraft was prevalent who testified that just like you see conflicts like this in the natural realm, angels and demons battle in the spiritual realm. And between battles, demons actually go to places like abortion clinics and satanic ceremonies where innocent blood is shed (human and animal sacrifice) and that demonic powers are strengthened and refreshed in these places.
Obviously, claims like these are difficult to substantiate, but it would explain why these demon infested mobs are so desperate to keep these killing centers open.
You’re right Jill, prayer is clearly one of our most effective weapons and we need to do more of it. And like Del says, we shouldn’t be afraid when our prayers provoke a nasty demonic response from the opposition when they can no longer restrain the outbursts that reveal their true evil nature.
Was anyone arrested? Having jars of feces and urine with the intent of throwing it at people is a health issue. Passing ‘body fluids’ onto someone else is how STDs are passed. YUCK!
It looks like we’re heading towards a more restrictive abortion regime on the legislative level. The onlly problem is that unelected judges have the power to strike down these laws, bringing back to where we were before.
I will say this though. All the legislation passed this year shows that the 2012 election was not as huge a defeat for the pro-life movement as many had feared/hoped. It seems that pro-life dominated state legislatures are still fighting the good fight. But again, Obama judicial appointments are still a scary thought.
The child-killers who wrote Roe v. Wade were so uncomfortable admitting the preborn child was a person while at the same time consenting to the preborn child’s murder, they said the preborn child was not a person and therefore could be killed. We’ve reached a new low in this country, where “pro-lifers” are arguing that the child IS a person and still feel comfortable consenting to their murder.
Republicans and pro-lifers argued for this bill claiming it would make abortion “safe, legal and rare.” Sound familiar? Pro-lifers have turned into pro-choicers.
This bill might save lives by shutting down abortion clinics, but it also very likely might lead to the death of more preborn children as women contemplating abortion will no longer have to fear our horror stories like those found in Lime 5.
This bill might save lives by preventing a woman from committing an abortion after the baby feels pain, but it also very likely might lead to the death of more preborn children as abortive women have now been comforted by “pro-lifers” that if they kill their child, at least it won’t suffer.
This bill might save lives by preventing a woman from committing an abortion after 20 weeks gestation, but it also very likely might lead to the death of more preborn children as a woman on the fence on whether or not to kill her child will be pressured to pull the trigger before the 20-week mark because she cannot obtain an abortion afterward.
Abolitionists are willing to admit that this bill might save lives, but “pro-lifers” are unwilling to admit that it might seriously backfire. They are willingly ignorant.
As the Partial Birth Abortion Ban demonstrated, which has saved exactly 0 lives in 6 years, we will see an increase in abortions in Texas prior to 20-weeks. The bill, written by Republicans and pro-lifers (of wich I am neither), goes out of its way to assure everyone that it does not prevent any woman from killing her child.
From the bill itself:
“restricting elective abortions at or later than 20 weeks post-fertilization, as provided by this Act, does not impose an undue burden or a substantial obstacle on a woman’s ability to have an abortion”
So back to Danny I see. Why do you have so much trouble picking a screen name?
“Hail Satan” indeed –
Jesus said Satan was the “father of lies” and “a murderer from the beginning” and lies and murder pretty much describe abortion.
We fight it with the truth. We continue to point to the Gosnell case, as ugly as it is, and tell people – that’s not the exception, that’s the rule. We continue to point out the insanity of making a distinction between killing a baby inside or outside the womb – calling one murder, and one a legal medical “procedure”, when the only difference is 12 inches and a few seconds.
We compassionately tell women that they’ve been lied to. It’s not just a clump of tissues – it’s a human life. It’s their child. And we help them heal.
We tell them that the war on women really comes from the abortion providers. They don’t care about women. They care about money. Why do they think it’s more important to have many, many unregulated clinics, than fewer regulated, safe clinics? Why is it more important for women to have unrestricted access to abortion facilities, than that those facilities be safe? Because money is their motivation – not the health and safety of women.
The hard-fought victories in Texas and other states seem like a direct result of people’s eyes being opened to what abortion really is. We need to keep exposing the darkness to the light, and stand strong.
Mothers who kill children raise other children who have to internalize such emotional trauma who then kill their children and so on, and so forth.
Some mothers are just evil.
So are proaborts as disappointed as abolitionists? It would seem so.
Eventually Xalisae their numbers will dwindle to zero. You cannot continue the proabortion movement by killing off the proabortion movement.
The Roe Effect.
I don’t think they’re the same person, JDC. They have different styles of writing.
This bill might save lives by preventing a woman from committing an abortion after 20 weeks gestation, but it also very likely might lead to the death of more preborn children as a woman on the fence on whether or not to kill her child will be pressured to pull the trigger before the 20-week mark because she cannot obtain an abortion afterward.
Please show me some evidence for this claim. Abortion clinics already encourage women to do it as early as possible because abortions are much more expensive, more difficult to obtain, and more invasive later in pregnancy.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/health-topics/pregnancy/thinking-about-abortion-21519.htm
http://www.liveaction.org/rosaacuna/appleton-wi-the-rosa-acuna-project/
If Danny=/= Jumbotron, then my apologies.
If the Texas Legislature cares so deeply about women’s health, why haven’t they tried to make birthing centers and freestanding emergency medical facilities meet ambulatory surgical clinic standards?
Oh, right. Because it doesn’t care.
Law probably gets struck down by a federal judge and you never hear about it again because your “pro-life” politicians have already benefited from it and have nothing more to gain by making a stink over a law that has been deemed unconstitutional.
Joanie. It’s a hard day, I know. Better to just not say anything.
Jumping on Navi’s point…. 20 weeks actually is quite far along. That’s usually when parents discover the gender of their baby – so he or she is very developed that point. The woman is most likely showing already. No, most abortion decisions take place far earlier. I’d like to see abortion illegal all 40 weeks, but saving some is better than saving none. :(
What are they chanting? I can’t make it out.
What makes me sad is that I wonder if any of those fighting for abortion realize what they’re chanting for. The lies and deception just break my heart.
So they are fighting for unfettered abortion access? An increase in maternal death? The more gruesome ripping apart of babies? The defense of 5 – out of a huge 47 – clinics to stay open that are clearly very dangerous for women? Is this truly the movement they want to defend tooth and nail? By erratically throwing bodily fluids and feces at their opponents?
It just makes me sick, and glad to be on the side of Grace, Love, Truth, and Peace.
Just to be clear, LibertyBelle, you think that all birthing centers and emergency care clinics that are not ASCs should be shut down, right?
“JDC says:
July 13, 2013 at 11:44 am
So back to Danny I see. Why do you have so much trouble picking a screen name? ”
I’ve always posted as Danny.
“I’ve always posted as Danny.”
O.K., I was thinking of someone else. My bad. I’m sorry.
LisaC: “If the Texas Legislature cares so deeply about women’s health, why haven’t they tried to make birthing centers and freestanding emergency medical facilities meet ambulatory surgical clinic standards? Oh, right. Because it doesn’t care.”
If Planned Parenthood cares so deeply about women’s health, why don’t they actually give mammograms?
Oh, right. Because they don’t care.
That rotunda is going to need a serious exorcism.
For all of those claiming that this will save the lives of those who would have been aborted after 20 weeks, please tell me you’re joking. If we’re that foolish, we’ll never end abortion.
Claiming this will save the lives of those who would have been aborted after 20 weeks is like saying the Partial Birth Abortion Ban will save lives. The PBA Ban saved none because they simply use another method. A 20-week ban (with enough exceptions to kill millions of kid: life of the mother, health of the mother, fetal abnormalities, undue burden, etc., etc., etc.) won’t save any lives either as women will just abort prior to. These laws have unintended consequences because there are consequences when we disobey God. God never authorized us to consent to the killing of some in order to try and save others.
I will wait to hear if there are any here not willingly ignorant enough to not admit that this law very likely will backfire in making abortion seem safer, making women more comfortable because we’ve told them their child won’t feel pain and pressuring women to abort pre-20 weeks now. I’ve met women and have friends who’ve met many women who were still contemplating abortion at 20 weeks and we still had time to help them change their mind. This will no longer be the case in Texas.
Hey LisaC. I think that any medical facility offering invasive procedures should adhere to current industry standards, yes. Many emergency care clinics operate as triage and transfer to hospitals. If you’re operating as a medical clinic, the doctor on sight needs to have admitting privileges to the local hospital.
Birth isn’t an invasive procedure. Most emergency care clinics don’t offer such services either. But abortion is an invasive procedure so yes, they should absolutely be held to the same medical standards as ASCs. And for other medical, non-invasive facilities, I would expect them to be held to applicable medical standards of cleanliness and have emergency equipment on hand, etc.
The Rotunda vid sounds like the Orcs advancing on Minas Tirith in LOTR. Only more disturbing because these are, putatively, humans making these sounds.
i think a footnote is in order on that sign of the 18 year old girl with cecile. it should say the names of the babies these women aborted and how old their mothers were when they aborted them and how old these babies would be now had they lived……
That anyone could even create that sign without any sense of irony at all, is just mind-numbing. If they had a sense of irony, they wouldn’t have created the sign. That creating the sign doesn’t awaken some sense of irony, is also weird.
Honestly, the smile on the kid’s face — as juxtaposed with the sign — suggests that she’s an idiot. And the look on Cecile’s face — juxtaposed with the smiling kid juxtaposed with the sign — seems as if expressing “Yeah. That’s right. We can COUNT on this kind of irony-oblivious idiocy from the votes on our side. Just TRY to match us for that kind of mindless fervor, pro-lifers. Best of luck with that. Your ilk needs thinking people to prevail. LOL”
I’m not sure why they are acting this way when all they will have to do is say the law “imposes undue burden” and “any woman or group of women” can walk right into a facility and kill their baby any time. “actual bill language)
The great hope that making a few laws about the clinics themselves leaves out the millions of dollars earned from killing babies. We’ll probably see them doing whatever they can to continue their lucrative professions. I will rejoice with the lawmakers if all those clinics do close. There is no such thing as a “safe” abortion clinic because someone ALWAYS dies.
Heaven is not rejoicing at the loss of all these babies that are not protected. God have mercy on us.
@Myla 4:21 pm: I don’t think the sign necessarily indicates that these 4 generations of women had any abortions; just that they are pro-choice. Which includes the “I would not have one personally, but ‘a woman’s choice’ reigns supreme” crowd. If this subset of people ever started thinking honestly and seriously about why they are personally opposed, they would be unable to continue supporting abortion “at any time, any reason”.
Claiming this will save the lives of those who would have been aborted after 20 weeks is like saying the Partial Birth Abortion Ban will save lives. The PBA Ban saved none because they simply use another method.
That’s true of the PBA Ban (this article is obviously false), though it had other merits. It made the status of the unborn and the gruesome nature of abortion itself the focus of the national debate, resulting in a permanent shift in public opinion towards the pro-life position. Upholding it also weakened Roe v. Wade and Doe v. Bolton (which ruled that a woman’s right to abortion for “health” reasons was absolute), encouraging lawmakers to pursue newer types of pro-life legislation. The 20 week bill, however, does much more (as I’ll discuss later).
A 20-week ban (with enough exceptions to kill millions of kid: life of the mother, health of the mother, fetal abnormalities, undue burden, etc., etc., etc.) won’t save any lives either as women will just abort prior to.
The only exceptions are life of the mother and severe, irreversible physical harm (and only then as a last resort). Most, if not all, late-term abortions wouldn’t be allowed.
71% of women who have abortions at 16 weeks or later do so because they didn’t know they were pregnant. Only 24% do so because they took their time deciding. “Just abort prior to” is not a possibility for them. It’s impossible that all of these babies would just be killed earlier. Furthermore, if it’s upheld there will only be 5 abortion clinics left in the entire state. Abortion at any stage will be much more difficult.
I’m curious, if the limit were 4 weeks instead of 20 weeks would you still be saying that it wouldn’t save any lives?
These laws have unintended consequences because there are consequences when we disobey God. God never authorized us to consent to the killing of some in order to try and save others.
We don’t consent to the killing of some. To use an analogy, consider a concentration camp prisoner who is told by a guard that he can either walk free and take the oldest 1% of prisoners with him, or he can go alone and not save anybody. It would not be immoral to take the former option, nor would it be consenting to the deaths of the remaining prisoners. In fact, it would be seriously wrong to not save the lives we’re able to.
I will wait to hear if there are any here not willingly ignorant enough to not admit that this law very likely will backfire in making abortion seem safer, making women more comfortable because we’ve told them their child won’t feel pain and pressuring women to abort pre-20 weeks now. I’ve met women and have friends who’ve met many women who were still contemplating abortion at 20 weeks and we still had time to help them change their mind. This will no longer be the case in Texas.
I’m not convinced that we send this message if we ban abortion after 20 weeks. The media frequently portray it as part of a campaign to make all abortions illegal (which remain controversial), and the pro-life movement as a whole continues to work toward this. And as mentioned above, abortion clinics already do encourage women to abort before 20 weeks.
Raise your hand if you actually read and understand this bill. Now, raise your hand if you actually read the PBA ban ruling in the Supreme Court case Gonzalez v. Carhart.
When the pro-life industry stops lying to itself it may finally realize incrementalism is only fanning the flames of this battle in order to keep it burning.
If you have a weak stomach, then avoid reading what the Republican majority appointed Supremes authored in Gonzalez v. Carhart. If your stomach is that weak, perhaps it is time to join a new cause.
Politicians and the Pro Life industry that cannot afford for all abortion to end have successfully moved individuals from ProLife to ProChoice with these kinds of rulings.
If you support this Texas bill you are now pro-Choice. And you’re celebrating? You are choosing which babies will die based on when you believe a baby in the womb can feel pain. Tell me, does it hurt sitting on top of that barbed wire fence?
That’s true of the PBA Ban… though it had other merits.
Whether or not something has merits is not the standard by which something is judged righteous or evil. Once could easily argue that there were merits when pro-lifers were killing abortionists, but that doesn’t make it right. Gonzales v. Carhart is the most wicked ruling in the history of this nation. Have you read it?
The only exceptions are life of the mother and severe, irreversible physical harm (and only then as a last resort). Most, if not all, late-term abortions wouldn’t be allowed.
False. Health, life, fetal abnormalities, undue burden, etc., etc., etc. This bill is evil and also unconstitutional, by the way. But pro-lifers don’t care about strategy. They are so short-sighted, they will never succeed.
It’s impossible that all of these babies would just be killed earlier.
This is so foolish for you to say. It’s not only possible, it WILL happen. I’ll donate money to the charity of your choice for the first woman you can document who is unable to get an abortion in the state of Texas because she is post-20 weeks. (Not holding my breath.)
Furthermore, if it’s upheld there will only be 5 abortion clinics left in the entire state. Abortion at any stage will be much more difficult.
This is wishful thinking. Would you let me know when there’s only 5 abortion clinics left in the state? Women travel to Boulder, Colorado from all over the world for late term abortions. I’m sure adding a couple extra hour drive is not going to deter a woman from not killing her child.
We don’t consent to the killing of some.
If you support this bill, you consent to the killing of some. Have you even read the bill!?! The authors of the bill consent to the killing some in every sentence. They consent to all babies killed pre-20 weeks, they consent to all babies killed when the mother’s life is in danger, they consent to all babies killed when the mother’s health is harmed, they consent to all babies killed with fetal abnormalities, they consent to all babies killed when the mother has an “undue burden” imposed on her. Do not tell me this bill does not consent to the killing of some. And do not tell me that those who support this bill do not consent to the killing of some. In supporting this bill, they are consenting to the death of some to save others.
I’m not convinced that we send this message if we ban abortion after 20 weeks.
Whether or not you’re convinced is irrelevant. It’s reality. Abortion will now be safer in Texas. Women feared going to abortion clinics when pro-lifers were killing abortionists. What is the point of Lime 5? What is the point of pro-life bloggers exposing when women are killed or hospitalized in botched abortions? It is one method of deterring women from getting an abortion. That argument is now taken away. We have also lied to women and told them babies do not feel pain before 20 weeks. That is so false! And what are the unintended consequences of telling women this? They will feel more comfortable killing their child. That is a real possibility and you should admit it. What is the point of the silent scream? It is a method of deterring women from killing their child because of the pain suffered by the preborn child.
And as mentioned above, abortion clinics already do encourage women to abort before 20 weeks.
And this helps your case how? Again, this bill ensures an increase in pre-20 week abortions in the state of Texas. But for those who are still contemplating abortion at or near 20 weeks, they will now be pressured by this “pro-life” bill to pull the trigger and abort. I have firsthand experience with women post-20 weeks pregnant who were still contemplating abortion.
It is crucial to be honest about the positives and negatives. Pro-lifers are unwilling to be honest about the negatives.
When “abolitionists” straighten out their own camp viz a viz contraception, I might start to listen (since the number of lives terminated by chemical contraception probably exceeds those who die of surgical abortion by 3-400%). Until then, I’ll know they’re not interested in proving much other than how much better they are than everyone else.
Last time I checked, “abolish human abortion” still supported contraception. Otherwise, what little support they have (and that almost entirely evangelical/pentecostal) would instantly evaporate.
Whether or not something has merits is not the standard by which something is judged righteous or evil. Once could easily argue that there were merits when pro-lifers were killing abortionists, but that doesn’t make it right.
That argument could be made about killing abortionists, but I’m not convinced that making partial-birth abortion illegal is evil or unrighteous. You have to provide support for this claim.
Gonzales v. Carhart is the most wicked ruling in the history of this nation. Have you read it?
I’m curious how you came to that conclusion. Roe essentially made the laws protecting unborn children unenforceable in all 50 states, declared abortion to be a constitutional right throughout all nine months, and resulted in over 55 million state-sanctioned deaths. Gonzales weakened Roe by ruling that there are some abortions that are so horrible they can be outlawed (even if they’re considered necessary for “health” reasons). There’s no contest. It’s unfathomable that Gonzales is “the most wicked ruling”.
False. Health, life, fetal abnormalities, undue burden, etc., etc., etc.
Reading more carefully, I see that it does include an exception for severe (lethal) fetal abnormalities. My apologies.
It does not include an exception for “health” (as defined in Doe v. Bolton). It includes a much narrower exception for severe, irreversible physical harm. The “undue burden” clause only means that if the courts find some other exception that needs to be in the bill to satisfy the “undue burden” standard set out in Casey, that the rest of it shouldn’t be thrown out (rather it stands independently). The text also stated that this is unlikely to happen.
The vast majority of late-term abortions still don’t fall under any of these categories.
This bill is evil and also unconstitutional, by the way. But pro-lifers don’t care about strategy. They are so short-sighted, they will never succeed.
How is it unconstitutional? I care about strategy. I think that insisting on all or nothing is a sure way to end up with nothing.
This is so foolish for you to say. It’s not only possible, it WILL happen. I’ll donate money to the charity of your choice for the first woman you can document who is unable to get an abortion in the state of Texas because she is post-20 weeks. (Not holding my breath.)
You shouldn’t. It still has to go through the courts before it can take effect (which may take years, or even decades).
This is wishful thinking. Would you let me know when there’s only 5 abortion clinics left in the state?
Probably closer to scaremongering from the other side, but similar measures have worked well in other states:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/40-year-old-virginian-abortion-facility-closing-after-tougher-regulations-p/
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/07/15/busiest-abortion-clinic-in-virginia-closes-thanks-to-pro-life-law/
Even if it closes only one, it’s worth it.
Women travel to Boulder, Colorado from all over the world for late term abortions. I’m sure adding a couple extra hour drive is not going to deter a woman from not killing her child.
It actually does have a major impact. 80% of abortion-minded women that miss their state’s deadline do not get abortions, according to a new ongoing study. Furthermore, you could make this argument about any pro-life law (even a national human life amendment, as women can just travel to other countries). It’s not a reason to preclude us from having it.
If you support this bill, you consent to the killing of some. Have you even read the bill!?! The authors of the bill consent to the killing some in every sentence. They consent to all babies killed pre-20 weeks, they consent to all babies killed when the mother’s life is in danger, they consent to all babies killed when the mother’s health is harmed, they consent to all babies killed with fetal abnormalities, they consent to all babies killed when the mother has an “undue burden” imposed on her. Do not tell me this bill does not consent to the killing of some. And do not tell me that those who support this bill do not consent to the killing of some. In supporting this bill, they are consenting to the death of some to save others.
Repeating your claim does not make it true. From my last post:
By supporting this bill, you’re using the resources of your government to save the lives you have the ability to save right now (while simultaneously working to save the rest).
Whether or not you’re convinced is irrelevant. It’s reality. Abortion will now be safer in Texas. Women feared going to abortion clinics when pro-lifers were killing abortionists. What is the point of Lime 5? What is the point of pro-life bloggers exposing when women are killed or hospitalized in botched abortions? It is one method of deterring women from getting an abortion. That argument is now taken away. We have also lied to women and told them babies do not feel pain before 20 weeks. That is so false! And what are the unintended consequences of telling women this? They will feel more comfortable killing their child. That is a real possibility and you should admit it. What is the point of the silent scream? It is a method of deterring women from killing their child because of the pain suffered by the preborn child.
Well, last I checked Kermit Gosnell still got a lot of business when he was allowed to stay open. Speaking of which, how do you feel about shutting him down? Did that not also result in abortion becoming safer, as well as encouraging women to “pull the trigger and abort” earlier (as other clinics in Pennsylvania don’t abort as late as he did)? What if we shut down other late-term abortionists like Hern and Carhart (not via legislative means, but perhaps through prayer vigils or persuading the doctor to become pro-life)? You would also have to be opposed to these efforts, since you think that they’ll only result in women aborting earlier and at a higher rate than before.
The Texas bill doesn’t say that babies feel no pain before 20 weeks. It says the state has a compelling interest in protecting babies at this stage because there is good evidence that they feel pain. The possibility that younger babies also feel pain is not ruled out anywhere.
If making the clinics safer with these new regulations will only encourage more women to have abortions, why haven’t they already improved their facilities on their own? That would be much better for business.
And this helps your case how? Again, this bill ensures an increase in pre-20 week abortions in the state of Texas. But for those who are still contemplating abortion at or near 20 weeks, they will now be pressured by this “pro-life” bill to pull the trigger and abort. I have firsthand experience with women post-20 weeks pregnant who were still contemplating abortion.
My point is that the number of women still contemplating abortion at 20 weeks is already very small because they’re already encouraged to “pull the trigger and abort” as early as possible. And the data shows that the vast majority of late-term abortions are not done on women that just twiddle their thumbs for 20 weeks instead of having an early abortion (rather, they’re done in cases where early abortion was not even an option). If you have a study that says otherwise (or that making late-term abortion illegal will indeed increase the overall number of abortions), I look forward to seeing it.
It is crucial to be honest about the positives and negatives. Pro-lifers are unwilling to be honest about the negatives.
Not agreeing with your conclusions isn’t the same as an unwillingness to be honest.
My assessment: this is a HUGE, unforeseen WIN by the pro-life side. If it was not a win, why did pro-aborts fight it so hard? I am so thrilled to see this win because in times past, there was not even a chance that such a bill could even be introduced, let alone be passed – I mean 20 weeks! That’s huge! Would I like to see no exceptions? Sure! Would I like to see 12 weeks? Yes, yes, yes! Would I like to see it outlawed altogether? Most definitely! However, Rome was not built in a day. Our wins *must* be incremental because each battle is like during the Civil War. Each small battle that we win leads to us winning the war against the preborn. At first it was unthinkable for Lincoln to try to abolish slavery. Even legislating against slavery did not completely abolish it. Abolitionists worked tirelessly bit by bit, and no single piece of legislation abolished it, but altogether, bit by bit, it weakened the hold that slavery held over the country. I am so very, very happy to see this win because in my lifetime I have seen so much ground lost to the abortion camp – on a local level, a state level, on a national level, and on a global level, that it is refreshing and GLORIOUS to see our prayers to end abortion bear such fruit! Thank you, God! God is good! He hears and answers our prayers!
Regarding the worries that it will not save any lives: while it is true that women could just choose to abort earlier or *rush* to the clinic to abort when they might have changed their mind, I think that Gosnell’s house of horrors shows us that there are scads of women who are aborting in their 30th, and yes even in their 36, 37th week of pregnancy just because of a break-up w/ a boyfriend/fiance/husband, and that in these cases, in which the break-up occurs after 20 wks, those babies will be saved. Also, although many abnormalities in preborn children are discovered in the 12th week or before the 20th week, there may be some cases which slip through the cracks, and these babies may be able to survive. Another thought to ponder: if it is ILLEGAL, many women equate *illegal* with *immoral*, and thus will not consider it beyond 20 weeks, even in difficult circumstances! Thus, there is *that* angle to consider as well. Furthermore, women with difficult pregnancies, such as hyperemesis gravidum (continual vomiting and nausea up until delivery) are often known to consider abortion, even when they are 26 weeks because they are so ill. Thus, many women will be saved from themselves just by the abortion being illegal and/or more difficult to obtain. In addition, a prohibition on abortion after 20 weeks sends a message to physicians to try harder to save the tiny preemies born at 22 weeks – that their lives are valuable and worth saving. As time goes on, we may be able to save preemies at 18 or 19 weeks, and the law can then be changed to account for that.
If Planned Parenthood cares so deeply about women’s health, why don’t they actually give mammograms?
If you had any interest in women’s health, you would know that the medical community thinks that it is preferable that mammograms be read by a full-time radiologist, ideally one who reads both screening and diagnostic mammograms. That means doing them at a hospital or a diagnostic center. Not a gynecological or general practice clinic.
Birth isn’t an invasive procedure. Most emergency care clinics don’t offer such services either. But abortion is an invasive procedure so yes, they should absolutely be held to the same medical standards as ASCs. And for other medical, non-invasive facilities, I would expect them to be held to applicable medical standards of cleanliness and have emergency equipment on hand, etc.
Abortion is minimally invasive, and it doesn’t require an incision or stitches, which childbirth often does. Clinics that perform abortions are already required to maintain applicable standards of cleanliness and to have emergency equipment. Requiring physicians at abortion clinics to have a transfer agreement with a hospital is not a medical necessity because it is not likely that pro-lifers will be able to overturn federal law requiring hospitals to take emergency patients; note also that abortions past 16 weeks in Texas are already performed at ASCs.
More to the point, supporters of the bill like to claim that its corridor and closet-space requirements are necessary for women’s safety–and yet, none of you seem to care that birthing centers (which do often transfer patients to the hospital) do not need to meet those codes. Why don’t pro-lifers believe that women giving birth deserve lower standards of care than women having abortions?
You can find all the relevant codes here if you’d like to check that information for yourself.