Pro-life Catholic blasts liberal bishops’ agenda
You liberal bishops have helped create this culture of death directly, by the work of your own hands. Don’t think that the blood of those babies, of those souls that fall into Hell because of their evil sexual practices will not weigh in the scales against you on your judgment day….
You have supported a political system which has brought morality in this country to its knees and made a virtuous life the butt of jokes. Yes, you! Do you think you will escape responsibility for your deeds and their consequences – your sins of omission and commission – what you have done and what you have failed to do?
… You have compromised with evil – you covered up the rape of children and plead ignorance afterwards.
You have allowed hordes of homosexual men to become priests and then promoted them after ordination to influential positions on the Church where they could reign down their spiritual terror on the unsuspecting faithful.
You have not just allowed but encouraged a spirit of radical feminism to run wild in the Church, in your own ranks and in the pews, universities, parishes, seminaries, houses of formation and so forth.
You have sat atop a near total destruction of the faith unprecedented in the history of the Church that it would have made Nero blush.
You have coddled murderers and sodomites and evil men of every sort. You have rolled out the red carpet for them in your cathedrals. You have delivered Holy Communion to them as surely as Judas handed over Our Blessed Lord.
In all the sincerity it is possible to muster, with the deepest charity for your souls, you need to repent publicly.
You need to say much more than ‘I switched parties’.
~ Catholic apologist Michael Voris, excoriating American liberal Catholic bishops for their role in supporting the Democrat Party (of Death) in light of Rhode Island Bishop Tobin’s announcement of switching from registered Democrat to registered Republican, Church Militant.TV, August 23
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Oh Michael, tell us what you really think! There are good ones who do not make the news.
Praying that the Holy Spirit working through Pope Francis I gets them all into doing their jobs. Might start with the Jesuits and their schools back into teaching the Faith and stops their unseemly support of abortion and homosexuality. See what The Cardinal Newman Society says about Georgetown University as an example of what else needs fixing.
Get started as it is going to take a lot of prayers.
Michael Voris – the entire church needs to repent. No one is innocent. The Holy Spirit convicts all that every man-filled organization is subject to corruption, but we all have turned away. We have been unfaithful as the Bride of Christ. The bishops got away with what they did because the faithful did not cry out with one unified voice and demand obedience to the Spirit and the Word of God.
Not to minimize at all what he has said here, I know he is addressing Roman Catholic church leadership but Protestant church leadership needs to repents as well.
And some wonder the reason I spoke in the Tobin thread against Catholic clergy aligning themselves politically and supported stronger advocacy so the faithful vote the Church’s interests. Someone tell me if this fiasco will not not take a bite out of our beloved Church’s ranks?
Praying that the Holy Spirit working through Pope Francis I gets them all into doing their jobs. Might start with the Jesuits and their schools back into teaching the Faith and stops their unseemly support of abortion and homosexuality.
Pope Francis is a Jesuit. Can you point us to something that states that the Jesuits condone abortion and homosexual behavior?
The Pope’s comments regarding homosexuality have already been misconstrued by many.
Perhaps … There is a great truth and a huge problem with what Michael says. I think that all of us (especially Catholics) shifting an intimacy to a blatant public-political domain. We have no difficulty at all calling Jesus (God), by His first name. And yet kowtow to the titles ‘Father, Cannon, Bishop, Cardinal; Rt.- Rev, etc as if these were not HIS FAMILY, our BROTHERS TOO. It is not ‘what-we-do/our-service’ that counts, but ‘who’ we are as His beloved kids. When Jesus asked ‘And who do you say I am?’ was He not speaking in-your-voice, don’t you wish to know? I say I love God but my clergy are ???? Are these my Brothers?
Prax – Patty’s comment may have been a bit broad regarding the Jesuits, but I will agree that on many many many occasions we read about things happening at Catholic universities that are contrary to Church teaching, and it is a Jesuit-run university. My own bishop (George Murry, Youngstown) is a Jesuit, and I love him. But there do seem to be a great many Jesuits who are in fact leading our young people astray, at least in my opinion. I am sure that you will not find a written document that states a Jesuit position in opposition to Church teaching, just like you won’t find one for the LCWR. But if you spend even a minimal amount of time researching on line, you can find numerous examples to support Patty’s assertion.
* just to see, I Googled “jesuit university support abortion” and got numerous examples – the same happened when substituting “homosexuality” for “abortion”
I support the Catholic clergy 100 percent but ask that they give sermons to stear me in the direction of the Church’s teachings and not choose sides in the political arena. At my parish, there are dems and repubs and perhaps, I don’t know - greens maybe (haha) but all of us there vote for Jesus Christ. Once clergy start proclaiming their political interests, the Church suffers. What is more important in the US: strengthening the Roman Catholic Church or causing rift within its membership?
I’m not sure where you are coming from, John McD…
We call Him “Jesus,” but we also call Him, “Lord.” And we respect and love the bishops and pastors that Our Lord has given to shepherd us, but we also hold them accountable when they fail to use their authority with courage when needed.
I appreciate Michael Voris and his cranky, pull-no-punches approach. I don’t know Bishop Tobin; I suppose that I should be charitable toward his public announcement of switching parties.
But I really feel like we need to hear some blistering sermons about the evil policies of the Democratic Party, who choose death and religious persecution whenever they can. And I’d like to hear some blisters on the Republican Party, when they are squishy about defending life and take out votes for granted. I’d like to hear some bishops urging Catholics to show our faith: to vote like we mean it, run for office like we believe it, and live like it matters.
Do we remember all of those lame accusations that Pope Pius XII did not speak out enough against the Nazis? Well, now is our time. Democratic policies have killed millions more than the Nazis did. If the Democrats are as brutal as the Nazis, then we need to speak out to our deaths. And if the Democrats are not as brutal as the Nazis, then what are we afraid of?
Mostly, we are afraid that some people will say mean things about us.
WOW!!! God bless and protect this heroic warrior! He is dead-on accurate. One crying in the wilderness….please Lord send us more in his mold…and raise them to the thrones of Bishop!
Patty’s comment may have been a bit broad regarding the Jesuits
No, Patty’s comment was very broad — She said the Jesuits and their schools support abortion and homosexuality.
I realize that there are Jesuits and those that work at and attend Jesuit Universities that support abortion, as there are in all religious orders and universities. Do you suggest that everyone be required to state how they vote or what their views are on homosexuality and abortion before being allowed to attend and work at a Jesuit University? Would it be better if all proabort students attending Jesuit colleges attend secular colleges? I work at a public school and believe me, some do not think I should be allowed to work there because I am Catholic. Do you agree?
Had the priest who I went to confession to after many years of sinning and not attending Mass reacted like Voris does above, it is highly unlikely that I would have ever returned to confession, to say nothing of Mass. As it was, I only confessed some of my sins during that confession because I still believed that some of my behaviors were not sinful (I’m sure I am still missing many sins during my confessions). After years of terrible choices and brainwashing, I needed to be lovingly brought to the truth over time, not hit over the head with a bat.
I don’t understand why people have a problem with Pope Francis’s comments about homosexuality. He was basically reiterating the popular religious sentiment that being homsexual or bisexual w/out engaging in sexual behavior with the same gender in itself isn’t a sin (as people keep telling me, they believe there’s a difference between behavior and what you are), and the important part is seeking God. I thought that was solid Catholic teaching, that you’re not condemned for just not being straight. Maybe people would have been happier if he’d just straight up condemned gay celibates (it would certainly confirm LGBT people’s suspicions about what religious people really secretly think about gays). Pope Francis certainly seems more Christ-like than certain church officials I remember, but apparently that’s a bad thing.
The priest I went to confession to is a Jesuit.
I now teach Theology of the Body to teens and in hindsight believe that this Jesuit priest’s influence and prayers, along with the Holy Spirit, helped to gently guide me to TOB.
hi Del,
It is difficult very-difficult to ‘see’ as I do. Many years ago I began to understand that our faith was not about any kind of prestige, but it is basic-organic. OUR faith is about God loving us, kinda like the way Mom loves you … your age matters little; your education/your trophies/the letters you place after your name; the amount of money you make;on and on. These mean zip to a parent saying; ‘Ah, dats MY BOY! In Genesis it depicts the height of human glory as walking with God through His garden. The idea is being so in-love with Abba, (Jesus’ first commandment is to love God. you sail through …. it really helps if you are a wee kid, holding His hand.
PLEASE CONTRAST THIS WITH TODAY’S COMMON PRACTICE: Therese Martin is my soul-mate and we call her saint, ‘the little flower’, doctor of Church dogma … and yet, she teaches me to love life. Do I know Abba, Therese, Mom …. [Abba is not ‘the Father” but Daddy … same PERSON … My ‘who-ness’ shifts from public to personal. MY faith becomes our faith.]?
Your right Jack. I was referring to the people who have taken bits and parts of the Pope’s comments and are using them to say that the Pope believes that homosexual behavior is moral and that the Church is wrong in it’s teaching on homosexuality.
No, I got what you were saying Praxedes, I was just expressing my frustration at the backlash I’ve seen against Pope Francis for like, trying not to be a complete jerk to gay people (which isn’t something I have seen out of a lot of church officials, to be honest). A lot of people misquoted him to make him look like he supports homosexuality, which isn’t right, but still more people bashed on him for doing something other than talking about how gay people are evil and cause hurricanes and destroy the world by existing, or whatever.
I happen to be fond of Jesuits in general, they seem to focus a lot more on God’s love and forgiveness and guidance than God’s condemnation, which isn’t a bad thing. About the only Catholic resources I can read without feeling like a complete piece of garbage are by Jesuits. Seems that there’s a message of hope in that sect that is sadly missing from some other religious groups.
Oh, and I just have to say I think it’s *hilarious* in a horrible way to fully blame the sex abuse scandals on “liberal Catholics”. Did Benedict suddenly become a liberal Catholic or something? Is every priest who abused a child or every bishop who covered it up part of this liberal contingent or something? This stuff had been going on for multiple decades, spanning many different organizations and parts of the Church.
Stuff like what Voris is saying is just people trying to pass off blame for the scandals rather than take responsibility for it and make it so it doesn’t happen again. It’s like that disgrace of an “apology” that Benedict issued to Ireland, no real acceptance of blame or reassurance that policies will be looked at and changed to protect children.
My bad in not realizing that folks would use Pope Francis’ comments in the opposite way as well, Jack! Some of these folks probably wish that the Pope would carry a big bat along with him so that he could take out the folks that the hurricanes miss! (:
Visit the Pope on Facebook. His messages there are truly inspiring.
Praxedes: Sorry that what I wrote was not stated better. I did write, “See what The Cardinal Newman Society says about Georgetown University as an example of what else needs fixing.” http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/ Mentioned the Jesuits because the Pope is a Jesuit. See also Pope John Paul II’s 1990 Apostolic Constitution, Ex Corde Ecclesiae and this followup http://www.usccb.org/news/2013/13-008.cfm which has to do with a “Ten-year report cites progress in relations between church, college leader Working group of bishops, college presidents to be formed for further study. Concerns center on Catholic knowledge, identity”.
Perhaps part of what is needed/useful would be an outgoing ranking of college students similar to what was recently released for secular school students on a state level vs the national level. Along with knowing their grade level in reading, math, etc., one could see the grade level in religion so that a better opinion could be reached about any college/university before spending those big bucks. As a parent I would rather see a possible ‘ticket to Heaven’ than a possible ‘slide into hell’.
The Newman Guide provides details on courses, majors, spiritual life, activities, dorms, and more to help Catholic families choose the right college. This would be helpful even if one was not Catholic but was going to a particular institution because of their medical or law school, etc. http://www.cardinalnewmansociety.org/TheNewmanGuide.aspx
Prax wrote: “I now teach Theology of the Body to teens..”
A few years ago, I studied Theology of the Body on a big set of CD’s that was part of a weekly workshop. When asked, What had I been studying all that time? It was hard to articulate. But last week I stumbled upon an article that was about one particular issue, but the author really hit home with this point:
Either we are ensouled organisms, meaning our soul and our body are united,
or, as many secular folks want to believe, we are puppet masters of our bodies and we can separate ourselves from them.
The Theology of the Body affirms that we are ensouled, that we are not ghosts in a machine, nor drivers of a vessel that we discard. It means that we cannot possibly be ”born in the wrong body” because we ARE our body AND our soul. But most importantly from a pro-life perspective, it means that we do not become people later in life, we do not acquire a soul later in life. It means, we begin being who we are at conception and our soul develops as our body and mind develop because we are united.
What do we discover about the whole pro-choice ‘do as I want is the whole of my law’ mentality?? We discover that humans rationalize the abortion of preborn human beings based on their idea that the little human isn’t as human as the mother or father. They rationalize it because they want so badly for it to be true. Even I made this deadly mistake: I believed for a few months that my child would be born into another family. I wanted to believe it, because I didn’t want to believe that a complete human person had perished.
I think that a combination of promoting The Theology of the Body (and everything it teaches us about the dignity of human life) with the humility and sense of service to his fellow man that we see in our new Pope, Francis, is going to be a very winning combination. When we care more about human life, than we do about men’s and women’s opinions about us, then we may really get somewhere, spiritually.
Apology accepted, Patty.
The way you worded your initial post made it sound like all Jesuits and Jesuit schools condone abortion and homosexual behaviors and this is just not so.
It’s like that disgrace of an “apology” that Benedict issued to Ireland, no real acceptance of blame or reassurance that policies will be looked at and changed to protect children
Church leaders had already accepted the blame for the scandals many times before his apology. Church policies had already been looked at and were changed before his apology.
His apology was sincere.
Perhaps part of what is needed/useful would be an outgoing ranking of college students similar to what was recently released for secular school students on a state level vs the national level.
The Cardinal Newman Society already does a great job with this, wouldn’t you agree?
“His apology was sincere.”
We’ll have to agree to disagree on that one. I read that whole thing, if it were directed at me I would have considered it insulting. Some of the Irish victims see it the same way I do, some have accepted it as is their right.
What policies have changed to protect children and make sure that the cover-ups don’t happen again? I still see people defending the choice to handle things “in house” and not give priests up to criminal authorities, which I think is sick. I’ve also seen people complain about the victims and accuse them of being un-Christian by wanting their abusers to see justice. There’s probably lot of media bias against reporting positive changes the Church at large and specific dioceses, but I really just see a lot of excuses and not much accountability. Voris’ article is a good example.
Jack, every volunteer in the Catholic church and every priest and every teacher and every employee who works with children or the elderly MUST pass training to keep children safe. This training MUST be repeated every few years. The current name of the program is Shield the Vulnerable. I’ve been through it several times already. In certain instances, depending on what you volunteer for, we are even fingerprinted and a background check run on us. I have repeated this to my friends in person and online but you will NEVER see any news outlet tell you that we have been working to keep children safe. No, according to the media we are just awful institutional child abusers. In fact, children are at risk anywhere there are children. People who don’t go to church shouldn’t assume their children are safer at school or with babysitters than they are with Catholics.
See ninek that’s good news that I’m glad to hear. I think Catholics would do well to talk about things like that, or about what I’m reading now (policies put in place in US dioceses to report crimes to civil authorities and immediately remove priests credibly accused of abuse, rather than moving them all over the place and “rehabilitating” them), rather than go on about gay people and accusing everyone of harboring anti-Catholic sentiment when people bring up the concerns about how to prevent future abuses (not saying you guys were doing that, but that seems to be the response). I won’t take the Vatican’s sincerity itself seriously until they at least attempt to answer the concerns about Benedict, rather than making sure he’s granted immunity from prosecution or answering for crimes he was allegedly involved in (cover ups, I don’t believe he was ever accused of being an abuser, I’m not accusing him of that).
I don’t believe my children are safe with anyone but me, certainly not at public schools or with babysitters. I think people misunderstand criticism of the Church’s hierarchy and the way they handled the cases to thinking that Catholics are somehow worse than the general population. They aren’t, there wasn’t any more abuse in the Church than elsewhere. The problem was the way it was handled (similar to the Boy Scouts or the church I was raised in, people protected the abusers instead of the victims).
Beautifully written Mr. Voris. I listen to his talks all the time and he tells the truth. I am thankful to Jill for posting this.
They aren’t, there wasn’t any more abuse in the Church than elsewhere.
You’re right. That means there was less.
I think Catholics would do well to talk about things like that, or about what I’m reading now
I’ve talked about it here before and you are usually involved in the discussions surrounding child abuse but maybe you missed it.
Did anyone tell the authorities about your dad’s abuse, Jack? You may have mentioned it but I’ve forgotten or missed it.
“You’re right. That means there was less.”
From what I can tell, the prevalence of abuse in the Catholic Church was about on par with most other organizations that include children. It’s much less than in the public school system, however.
In my case no one told anyone anything.
i also want to answer the question of why did the Church rotate or move priests rather than laicize them? That was business as usual long before there was any modern abuse. Priests are very frequently moved around, and it’s not very common today for a priest to spend his whole time in one parish. Every few years we say good bye to someone we’ve grown fond of, and they didn’t do anything. So, take that managerial style, and add to it a 20th century abuse of minors and you can see what went wrong with that situation.
Mea culpa for abandoning the church for as long as I did. I was off playing New Age hookie while my house was on fire. Shame on me, on us, for our most grievous fault. x3 We should have been on top of it, and not let it happen. We should have kept a better eye on our girls and boys and those with responsibility for them.
“Not to minimize at all what he has said here, I know he is addressing Roman Catholic church leadership but Protestant church leadership needs to repents as well.”
There are frightening numbers of pro-choice Protestant churches. Repent indeed, like today. But there are many churches who are very actively pro-life. My church body, for one, fully funds and runs five pregnancy care centers just in my city.
In my case no one told anyone anything.
This is too bad and I wish your dad had been held accountable.
I believe that abusers are often master manipulators. I also think abusers and manipulators surround themselves with other abusers and/or those that are too weak/beaten down to report their abuse.
I do believe that there were those in Church leadership positions who knew about abuse and covered it up. I also think there were those who were manipulated by abusers and their henchmen into thinking all was well. I also think innocent, holy people in the Church have been falsely accused of terrible things they did not do and had their reputations in this life ruined.
ninek, times three for me too. ):
“This is too bad and I wish that your dad had been held accountable.”
Well I do too and I realize that that was my fault that he never was, but I did try to tell the youth pastor when I was fifteen. They handled it “in house” and it didn’t stop. In retrospect it was really, really, REALLY stupid of me to think that my dad’s friends and people who admired him a great deal would help me, I should have gone to the cops. My bad.
I do agree that abusers are manipulative and that plenty of people in the Church leadership were manipulated. And I’m sure there have been a few false accusations here and there (though I’m certain there are far, far more real cases of abuse than false accusations). It’s just upsetting to me that any time you have people with power over others (priests, teachers, pastors, Scout leaders) you’re going to have abusers gravitate towards those roles, and I don’t think a lot of people (in the Catholic Church and other organizations) take as much accountability for not removing them as quick as possible after finding out what type of person they are.
Ninek I realize that it’s common for priests to be moved from parish to parish. But there is documentation that some priests were moved for the express purpose of getting them away from their victims and giving them a “fresh start” after “rehabilitation”. Also sexual abuse definitely isn’t modern, though we just heard about these scandals (some accusations even date to the fifties or earlier) in the last decade or so.
A child is 100 times as likely to be sexually abused in a public school than in the Catholic Church. Where is the outcry that the NEA’s apology is not sincere?
Oh, wait, one must actually apologize before that apology is believed to be insincere.
“A child is 100 times as likely to be sexually abused in a public school than in the Catholic Church” – that’s a very brave claim to make. You have definitive, independant evidence? What impact does the unknown variables of sexual abuse incidents compared to sexual abuse reports have on the data? Are abusive teachers quietly moved on? Is there a systemic cover-up within the education system?
that’s a very brave claim to make.
Well, thank ya, Tmeister.
That’s not quite the response a politician would give if their advisers said “that’s a very brave policy decision” ;-)
Praxedes, I think the lack of outcry against the abuses that have happened in the public school system is disgusting. The perpetrators of that should be name and shamed like officials of the church have been. Same thing with the Boy Scouts and other organizations that have had these problems (Penn State got a lot of flack for the Sandusky thing, which they deserved).
I do find it frustrating that whenever someone is discussing the abuses in the Catholic Church other places that have worse problems have to be brought up. Just because more children are abused in public school systems doesn’t mean the CC didn’t/doesn’t have a problem.
Penn State? Yes, they got a lot of flack but are people still bringing that up over and over?
I do find it frustrating that you discusses child abuse day in and day out but didn’t even realize that leaders in the Catholic Church have apologized over and over and have since required safeguards and education on this topic.
Other institutions have done little nor has there been the outcry by society and the media like there was with the Church. The more focus put on the past abuses in the Catholic Church, the less focus left for looking for current abuses that may be going on there and everywhere else.
I am sure some of your dad’s friends are still alive. You are obligated to tell the police of anyone that knew about your abuse as a child and did nothing to protect you. I am sure these folks are still around children. A failure to do so makes you a part of the problem.
I’m not a politician and the Tmeister is not my adviser.
Just in case anyone is confused by Reality.
Usually it’s just him, though.
In regard to your claim Praxedes, is it adjusted for the actual number of instances of abuse per child, per hour in each environment? (More children in school than in the church environment. More hours spent in school than the church environment.)
I think the Catholic Church gets more flack because if you hold yourself up to a higher, very public, moral standard you get judged more harshly when you fail. Another reason is the Church kept records of the movement of priests and the counseling that abusive priests received, so there was much more evidence than someone’s word in many of the cases. It’s not all that fair that the Church gets judged for harshly, and I do agree other organizations should be judged just as harshly.
As for me like I said I admit that was all my fault, and I don’t have any type of proof or evidence that any of them knew anything. I missed my chance to do anything and I fully admit that is my fault so I am sorry.
The full text of Pope Benedict XVI’s letter to the Catholics of Ireland:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/vaticancityandholysee/7487550/Pope-Benedicts-letter-in-full.html
and I don’t have any type of proof or evidence that any of them knew anything.
And this is the problem that many had in the Church as well, leaders included.
I know what abuse I survived. Proving it happened is a whole different ballgame.
*I meant it’s not fair that the Church is the only organization that gets judged as harshly as it does.
“And this is the problem that many had in the Church as well, leaders included”
Yes I understand and I’m sorry for being judgmental and I’m sorry I let that happen.
The churches do try to hold themselves out as a much more significant player in society than pretty much any other organisation though Jack. Moral arbiter, life guide, that sort of thing. Therefore when they transgress the transgression is more significant.
Yes I think there’s an element of that, in regards to the backlash. The Catholic Church is also a global organization, unlike US public schools or the BSA or Penn State, so of course abuses from all over the globe make more of a media target than ones confined to one country. There’s also the fact that you had groups of victims getting together and filing lawsuits and such together. That’s pretty rare in my memory, other incidents of abuse seem more isolated because the victims come forward and press charges as individuals.
But yeah, if the church is going to claim that they are the only valid moral authority, of course they are going to be judged more harshly when they fail. It’s not really right though, victims of people in other organizations deserve just as much justice as victims of priests. And people like me deserve just as much condemnation even if it’s on a much smaller scale, I’ve never pretended otherwise even if people imply such.
There is no justification for you to feel condemnation by anyone on any level Jack. There are valid reasons why victims sometimes don’t report abuse effectively or at all.
Particularly when they feel the structures around them are more supporting of the perpetrator.
It’s not like I didn’t know what a cop was. I don’t think I was truly an innocent victim, more like I perpetuated it by letting it continue and not seeking real help.
I was thinking that I think that another reason the Catholic church get smacked so hard is because because they put a heavy emphasis on sexual purity. So when sexually impure things happen in their congregations, of course the media is going to focus on that. It makes a good story.
From what I’ve read Jack, I think children who have suffered abuse need some sort of adult advocate to assist them in negotiating the processes. That’s not always easy. And dealing with the police can be difficult too, even if that is not their intent.
night
Particularly when they feel the structures around them are more supporting of the perpetrator.
This sounds exactly like what was going on in your case Jack’s because you stated,
They handled it “in house” and it didn’t stop. In retrospect it was really, really, REALLY stupid of me to think that my dad’s friends and people who admired him a great deal would help me,
The folks who “handled” it “in house” should still be confronted by authorities and held accountable if at all possible. There are advocates who will help you negotiate the process now.
You would expect the same to happen to anyone else who covered up for child sexual abuse and you have said as much. You are no longer a child. You are an adult who is perfectly capable of doing the right thing.
There isn’t any point. Please stop trying to make me feel guilty, I already do. Did you report the rapes against you?
The hard truth is that the data on child abuse is not and will not ever be accurate as so much of it goes unreported or is prosecuted as a “battery” for various reasons. Also, how many teachers have been dismissed over the years and reasons for their dismissals made hush-hush or pay-outs made to the victim(s) to keep it hush-hush? So tmeister, for you to ask for data is disingenuous.
Your right, Thomas. Abuse data in general is inaccurate because of many factors and we get a glimpse of that here on this thread. One hundred times more may be a low figure.
Jack, sorry that you don’t see that there is any point.
Please stop accusing me of trying to make you feel guilty. That is not my intent and it is wrong of you to accuse me of it without any proof other than your feelings.
Yes, I reported the rapes committed against me to the county. No, nothing is able to be done after so much time and zero proof but people in authority know in case others come forward with similar stories. There will always be some that don’t believe me. I get that hands are tied unless there us absolute proof and also realize that abuse is sometimes covered up; I myself would much rather see a guilty man free than an innocent one jailed.
With that said, it is clear that you now understand the difficulties surrounding abuse, especially child abuse and abuse that happened years ago. Therefore, I ask you to go and reread your posts above regarding this topic and the Catholic Church. I have hope that you will try to be more understanding of how this difficult topic was dealt with and trust that there are sincere and good people that did everything they could to get to the truth. I hope you can be assured that the Church is now doing everything possible to prevent such an atrocity from happening again and that maybe you will think twice before claiming to others that the Church needs to take responsibility and that Church leaders make disgraceful apologies with no real acceptance of blame. It only hurts innocent people and does nothing to positively assist survivors of abuse. There is healing and freedom in forgiveness.
Thank you.
One question if I may Praxedes – forgive the person or the act? I ask because one may “forgive” (whatever its meaning) but one never forgets. So the context makes a big difference.
My abusers have never admitted wrong-doing, nor apologized and probably never will. I have forgiven them anyway and have found true freedom in this.
I will never forget.
Jesus forgave those who crucified him, but note how he did not present himself to Pilate to be crucified a second time. When we forgive, we stop projecting our anger toward the other person. It certainly doesn’t mean the other person earned it or deserves it. Forgiveness heals our own hearts. That being said, we all have to decide if we want to move on with our lives and at some point many people do decide it’s more constructive to concentrate on the present than the past. Especially if one has new responsibilities, such as children.
I agree Ninek, but… it is not always possible to move on based on the extent of harm suffered. Some abuse will linger forever in one’s mind and that is to be expected. Moving on is hard to do and is contingent on so many factors that sometimes it takes years to accomplish. Not everyone has thick skin ya know.
Well yeah Thomas, I think people tend to forget that. If you have two decades of abuse plus a lot of PTSD moving on is a little hard, though that’s no excuse for not trying.
Sorry Praxedes I just don’t know how to take your comments.
it is not always possible to move on
I agree it may take longer for some than others based on many factors. However, as a Christian, I believe it is always possible to move on. Forget, no. Have long-term effects, maybe. Move forward and become a survivor versus a victim, yes. We all know of people who have conquered horrendous situations and moved on. We also know of those who survived much less who died bitter and angry.
we all have to decide if we want to move on with our lives and at some point many people do decide it’s more constructive to concentrate on the present than the past.
I totally agree. In my situation, I had to make a conscious effort to forgive and move on. It absolutely was a choice. It was not done without the help of caring others, including Christ, and much painful work. And my children are instrumental in my decision to be the best person I can be. I’ve always said that they’ve taught me much more than vice-versa.
If you are still reading, Jack, please know that you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about and I wish I had a way to make you realize this but the hard work will have to be done by you if you so choose. You were an innocent child who did the very best you did to survive but you don’t yet believe this. You are a wonderful person who deserved none of the abuse others dished out to you.
I’m sorry too, Jack.
There is never, never, never any intent to hurt you in any way. I hope you believe this but I know there is no way I can force you to believe it.
“If you are still reading, Jack, please know that you have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about and I wish I had a way to make you realize this but the hard work will have to be done by you if you so choose. You were an innocent child who did the very best you did to survive but you don’t yet believe this. You are a wonderful person who deserved none of the abuse others dished out to you. ”
I have done hard work when I still had the money for therapy, it helped somewhat. My problem is my complete lack of any type of support system and I have no idea how people go about getting one. It seems weird that people tell me they have friends that they talk to about stuff like that and support them. I can’t imagine telling someone about any of this in real life and them being all “that’s not your fault and I’ll help you” that’s just weird, I have one friend who seems to be somewhat supportive but I haven’t ever told him very much. I sometimes message Carla or xalisae but I do not like to bother people.
And sorry I don’t mean to accuse you of anything, but I read people’s comments and sometimes they only make sense one way, it’s a failing of mine.
“The hard truth is that the data on child abuse is not and will not ever be accurate as so much of it goes unreported or is prosecuted as a “battery” for various reasons.
Also, how many teachers have been dismissed over the years and reasons for their dismissals made hush-hush or pay-outs made to the victim(s) to keep it hush-hush?” – this actually sounds quite like the questions I asked Thomas R.
What impact does the unknown variables of sexual abuse incidents compared to sexual abuse reports have on the data? Are abusive teachers quietly moved on? Is there a systemic cover-up within the education system? -and – is it adjusted for the actual number of instances of abuse per child, per hour in each environment?
So, if as you say – “So tmeister, for you to ask for data is disingenuous” – then Praxedes claim is obviously about 100 times more disingenuous.
Here Reality: http://www2.ed.gov/rschstat/research/pubs/misconductreview/report.pdf
That’s a report about educator misconduct, it estimates that about 9.6% of public school students are targeted by sexual misconduct in the public school system. I can’t find the amount of Catholic children that are estimated to have been abused (I know the raw numbers of alleged victims, but I don’t know what percentage they are of all children in the Catholic church). I do know that it’s estimated that 4% of priests were abusers in the US. The problem was greater in Ireland I believe.
Thanks Jack – that’ll take a bit of consuming!
“targeted”?
Any idea of the average numer of victims for each of those 4%?
About 11,000 total allegations for those 4%, not sure what the average amount of victims per priest was. The John Jay study was pretty exhaustive and considered non-biased. I don’t think it took into account unreported cases though. Seeing as the majority of priest victims seem to be male, and males are statistically much less likely to report sexual abuse, I wouldn’t be surprised if there was many unreported cases. I sincerely doubt it’s as high as it is in the public school system though. http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2004_02_27_JohnJay/index.html
“targeted” just poor wording of mine, I’m sorry.
Jack, my counselor told me of a support group for survivors of abuse. It’s been years since I’ve gone, but I think we met about once a week. No one knew anyone’s last name or where they lived. We all met and discussed what we went through and survived. They had a group of young people in an adjoined room that babysat any young children if you chose to bring them along,
I found these meetings very helpful. Sometimes I think the only people that can truly understand what you have been through and the pain that accompanies it, are those who have similar stories. I chose not to keep in contact with any of this group outside of meetings but I met some wonderful folks.
Maybe there is a similar group that meets in your area.
Yeah that is a good idea, my therapist suggested the same thing, he says I don’t judge other victims of the same stuff near as harshly as I judge myself, and he thinks that having people react in a supportive way will get me out of that mindset that I’m worse than every other human ever born. I have looked around here a bit but things seem to be either geared toward women or out of my price range. And I’m a coward about it. But I need to get back on looking for one, I don’t think it’s healthy to think like I do.
Read whatever was printed on 8/28-29/2013 with interest. Find it strange that NO opposing views were illustrated. Is this because everyone agrees or are they filtered out. Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and practices but what exactly do you accomplish by outlawing abortion. It seems to me we know that answer, back alley abortions. The way to reduce/eliminate abortion is by having sex education at an early enough age for our children to make good choices either abstain or use protection.
You all make some very good points but your use of inflamitory words ends all reasonable discussion. Please review your presentations written & verbal and lets take murder off the table.
Love to all
Bob
Mr Voris is not allowed to claim Catholic for his posts. Every state requires one to register a party, primary ballot to that party member only, fall general elections are open. I switched last year to GOP and will never let my Party trump Jesus’ agenda.
Bob, I’m not sure what you mean by “no opposing views illustrated”. The fact that this is a self-described pro-life blog means that most or all of the posts will be written from a pro-life perspective (the same way I wouldn’t expect to find many pro-life posts on RH Reality Check or Jezebel). With that being said, Quote of the Day items highlight all viewpoints including ones not shared by the site owner (see here and here, for example). They’re also allowed in the comments section (you have to be a total jerk, or at least extremely annoying, to get filtered or banned here).
Assuming we can reduce or eliminate abortion through sex education (which is far from obvious), that wouldn’t resolve the issue. We would still have a system where parents can legally kill their unwanted children before they’re born, which is grossly unjust and unacceptable to pro-lifers even if it doesn’t happen very often. If abortion became illegal, at very least this violence would no longer be sanctioned by the state. It is tragic when a woman dies from any abortion (legal or not). However, I don’t think the law should be faulted for making it more risky to kill an innocent human being.
Fully agree with your last paragraph, for both sides.