Here were my top five seven favorite political cartoons of the past week. Be sure to vote for your favorite in the poll at the bottom of this post!
a twofer by Lisa Benson at Townhall.com…
(yes, it’s true)…
by Gary Varvel at GoComics.com…
by Gary McCoy at Townhall.com…
by Michael Ramirez at Townhall.com…
by Chip Bok at Townhall.com…
by Eric Allie at Townhall.com…
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
My first thought was “Why is Ramirez writing so small?” until I realized he would have had to write even smaller if he included other issues that relate to lack of trust. “I didn’t know we were giving untraceable guns to drug runners…”, “I didn’t know we were killing children with drones…”, “I didn’t know I had the same basic belief as Phil Robertson on marriage, until 2 years ago…” – and the beat goes on, and on, and on. Maybe he can just make the cartoon into a “series?”
Cartoon #2
The glorious leader is finally getting the award he truly deserves. He can place it right next to his Nobel Peace Prize.
Cartoon #4
The hearing impaired community were the only ones who truly understood what Obama was saying. Nice that he could stop acting like a silly schoolboy and finally act like an adult.
Okay Mary, I need a new keyboard….re: hearing impaired. LOL
(I’ve got to learn not to drink coffee while reading the Internet!)
BobC,
The feminazis and feministas have their granny panties and thong undies all tangled up because Phil values a woman’s reproductive system over a male’s hairy o’bama.
Not to be confused with a ‘Harry Reid’, tho they could reasonably be conflated given their dobblegangerness.
I’m voting for #7. There are few things I love more than pointing out media hypocrisy.
Hi Chris Arsenault,
Glad you enjoyed but sorry about the keyboard! :)
Now the hearing impaired community knows what those of us who hear put up with on a daily basis.
Hi JDC,
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the MSM jump on the fact that the Aurora CO theater shooter had the same name as a local Tea Party member…so that proves…! Turned out it was just a coincidence, something any high school journalism student would have known enough to check into before jumping to any conclusions and looking like an idiot.
I remember that too, Mary. I suppose not looking like an idiot is not a priority for our media.
It is a good thing that democRATs have this phobia about guns.
.
If most liberal pansies were not too terrified to touch a firearm, then there would be a ‘real’ epidemic of lunatics shooting defenseless children.
The mystery is why, when the lunatic is confronted by someone else who is armed, they self abort.
If we could just get the democRAT to self abort before she/he goes ‘postal’, then it would solve a whole host of other problems.
So tired of that Duck Dynasty false controversy. Dude made a public statement his boss didn’t like, and got fired, no free speech violation, just how it goes. I don’t think A&E should have fire him personally but they had the right.
Some others, including a ‘war on Christmas’ one that I think is pretty sad/funny/truthful.
http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/politicalcartoons/ig/Political-Cartoons/
Hi DLPL (Jack)
I have mixed feelings about it. Would A&E be getting this flack if the guy was fired for making an anti semitic or racist comment and saying it was based on his religious beliefs?
He’s as free to speak as any of us, but we do have to be careful what we say. We can be sued for slander, we can make ourselves look like idiots, or we can be fired by our employers for what they deem inappropriate public comments. If I publicly stated I don’t like taking care of patients of a particular race or ethnicity, or gay patients, my employer would be fully within their rights to fire me.
Jack/Mary -
I think consumers have the right to be mad at A&E and A&E had the right to do what they did. What I don’t understand is cartoons like the above (and I’ve seen others on facebook) who somehow are linking the two things. I mean, I’d love to hear if these people really think that employees rights trump the rights of their employers – for instance, the gal who made the AIDS tweet the other day – that her employer wouldn’t have any right to fire her. Or even things like drug testing – that a person could site privacy issues and the employer couldn’t do a thing about it.
Two different issues.
Mary,
What I find weird is he didn’t say much, at all. All he said is that homosexuality is wrong and quoted the Bible. He said nothing other than a basic Christian belief that I hear all the time all over the place, he didn’t say something like “I hate gay people and want them to die” or whatever. He just expressed an opinion on morality that like (in theory) half the country shares. So I don’t actually understand why anyone found his statements “controversial” in the first place. I see worse from Ken and many others on this blog all the time lol.
All that being said A&E definitely had the right to fire him. The only thing I worry about is that he could sue for religious discrimination but I don’t know the law on that.
Ex, I agree with you. I don’t get how any one would think that a business shouldn’t be able to let people go for making public statements they find damaging. And it strikes me as remarkably hypocritical when people argue that employer rights trumps employees when it comes to contraceptives, but now employers have less rights? Whatever.
Hi EGV,
Absolutely. People have a right to view this as they choose. They can take action against A&E if they see fit, but A&E can also act in the manner they see fit.
I’ve never met anyone who felt their firing was justified, though the employer begged to differ.
Sometimes too how you express an opinion can make or break you. You may not mean to come across as hateful, harsh, or judgmental, but that is how it is perceived.
Veto Jack – he said a heck of a lot more than that - http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/18/showbiz/duck-dynasty-suspension/
One thing to say “I think it is a sin”. Another to do it in the fashion he did.
Anyway – it strikes me as remarkably hypocritical as well. We all know though that these folks yelling and complaining wouldn’t be complaining if he made fun of the tea party and got suspended.
Agreed Mary.
More on the boRAT from those racist, knuckledraggin, neanderthol [circumcised cavepeople] racists at SNL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI0ib11evdU
Ex-RINO and Deluded are surely cranially conjoined twins who survived the attempt on their lives by a late term abortionist and were NOT surgically separated.
Hi Jack,
I think there was some controversy over putting gays in the same category as terrorists. I don’t believe this is what he meant to do, it was ambiguous, but this is why you have to be careful what you say publicly.
About the contraceptives, employees are free to buy all the contraception they want. That’s why they get a paycheck. This is how they pay for other health essentials like soap, toothpaste, nasal spray, toothbrushes, shampoo, their hot water heater, etc.
Ken – When was that last year that your comments were relevant?
Mary – one question though, and I’m heading to watch football, so I won’t respond for a while – but how much control over an employee’s health care plan do you think an employer should have? For instance, if somebody thought that maternity coverage and the absence it caused was too disruptive, are yo in favor of allowing an employer to say they’d offer no maternity or birth coverage, but cover abortion because their personal views see it as cheaper?
Lol Ex I think I’ve spent too much time arguing with people who are much more cruel with their anti-homosexuality comments to find any of his comments about gays that bad. He could have been nicer but he’s a redneck in his fifties or sixties, that’s kinda what they are mostly like lol.
The race comments, I hadn’t heard those. THOSE comments seem somewhat beyond the pale to me. Louisiana under Jim Crow… I don’t think it’s a good idea to downplay what went on then just because he apparently personally wasn’t involved in mistreating black people or didn’t personally witness it.
Mary I’ve told you before, I don’t think employers should provide health insurance at all, it just seems to screw things up. Gives employers too much control over their employees ability to access what healthcare they want, and it puts employers in the position of possibly feeling like they are being forced to provide things that go against their morals.
Ken, stunning contribution as usual.
If the homosexual supporting and advocating folks at A&E choose to discontinue doing business with Phil for sharing his views on sin in general and homosexuality in particular, then that is certainly their perogative.
If the wedding photographer, or the baker, or the bed and breakfast owner chooses not to do business with homosexuals, then that is their perogative as well.
The problem is finding sin free people with whom to do business.
I am sure both the A&E folks and Phil will agree.
EGV,
Employers offer maternity leaves for varying amounts of time based on their own policies. Also, employees can make their preferences and needs known. Hopefully this is determined at the time of hiring.
The employer, as far as I know, provides policies. They cover certain things, take it or leave it. Go to an insurance company as an individual and its the same thing. Take what they offer or leave it. I never had a policy cover cosmetic surgery. That wasn’t the employers choice, it was the insurance company’s. Somewhere a line has to be drawn. If the insurance company must provide contraception, then why not all the other above mentioned items? BTW, I also think climate controlled homes are essential to good health, especially in extremes of weather. Should our heating and air conditioning bills be covered as well?
“I’m heading to watch football,”
Ex-Rino,
Does that mean Deluded will be offline as well or can her mind operate indepently of yours.
In either case it is irrelevant as the redundant echo is almost as irritating as ‘feedback’.
I don’t know why I’m responding to Ken but whatever.
“If the wedding photographer, or the baker, or the bed and breakfast owner chooses not to do business with homosexuals, then that is their perogative as well. ”
We have anti-discrimination laws to prevent people being denied services based on characteristics like race, or gender, or whatever. Now I can see how it could be okay to deny catering a gay wedding, because it’s an action, I refuse to agree it’s okay to deny service to someone simply for being gay though.
And Ken the Bible I have is saying that everyone’s a sinner, so I’m not sure what version you have that says there’s such a thing as “sin free” people. Unless you were being sarcastic.
Hi Jack,
Actually I’ve found employer provided insurance a great benefit and very convenient. I don’t know where you get this notion about too much employer control. Was it perfect? Hardly. Was every single thing covered? No. Is everything covered on my home and car insurance? No. If I need car repair its out of pocket. If my home needs a new furnace its out of pocket.
That’s why I get a paycheck.
Mary we just radically disagree about health insurance and I see many problems with employer provided insurance. I’m glad you’ve had positive experiences but many million of others are not so lucky.
Hi Jack,
If its so bad its strange that so many people seek it out as a benefit when searching for employment. Also, that its even a benefit since no one seems to like or want it.
Deluded,
Can you be so dense that you cannot see that A&E discriminated against Phil, because he did not share their group think on homosexuality.
Take note A&E did not state that they suspended Phil for a breach of contract, but that A&E supports the LGBT community and they do not agree with Phil’s view.
So who discriminated and who suffered loss as a result of that discrimination?
Has Phil refused to do business with homosexual hunters?
Did Phil refuse to do business with A&E because of their support for homosexuals?
Do you and Ex take turns placing your respective heads in your shared rectum or is there room enough for both and do you consider it ‘safe sex’?
Because it’s incredibly difficult to afford insurance without employers subsidizing part of it. It’s just too expensive to get the level of coverage that employers subsidized, at least before the ACA existed. But whatever.
Mary,
Employer provided health insurance must be like the Government Motors ‘Volt’.
The car that was built to save the planet, but there is no one in the world who wants one.
“Can you be so dense that you cannot see that A&E discriminated against Phil, because he did not share their group think on homosexuality”
No, they fired him for making public statements they didn’t want to be associated with. Not for simply being a Christian or not approving of homosexuality.
I don’t think people should be discriminated against for being Christian, but Christians do have to realize they are held to the same standards everyone else is and if they publicly speak in away their boss isn’t comfortable with, their boss may not continue their employment. Same if a gay person worked for Chick-Fil-A and went and did a public interview about how homophobic and mean Christian are, the restaurant could fire the gay person for advancing views publicly that they don’t want to be associated with.
See what I mean Ex? I’ve argued with too many Kens and their kind words to worry about why the Duck dude said, which seems fairly mild if not particularly polite,
The free market will adjust to satisfy the demand.
What is provided will never be perfect, but it will be preferable to the monopolistic product that is mandated by the state.
“Does that mean Deluded will be offline as well or can her mind operate indepently of yours.”
I think you mean to say HIS mind.
Hi Jack.
Before the ACA? Added to the security risks of visiting the healthcare website, people are getting “sticker shock”. That’s assuming their info got to the insurance company and the withdrawals from their bank accounts aren’t going to some hacker.
Also, like car and home insurance, health insurance doesn’t cover everything, like people for some reason think it should. You understand and accept that some things are simply not covered, or are paid for by you. You pay for certain home and car maintenance out of pocket, you pay for certain health care needs out of pocket as well.
Hi JDC,
LOL. I certainly don’t think Jack’s gender has ever been in question!
Ken 1:57PM
That last sentence which I don’t even want to repeat.
Isn’t that getting a little crass?
JDC, for someone who dislikes the thought of Trans people as much as Ken does, I find it amusing he continually tries to turn me into a woman. He did it on occasion when I used my first name too, so he can’t even pretend it’s an accident. Jack isn’t a very gender ambiguous name lol.
Hi Jack,
Neither is the fact that you are a single FATHER.
JDC,
Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt as to what I meant to write.
But there is no question in mind as to Deluded’s or Ex’s gender.
In their politically correct fantasy such distinctions do not even exist.
I wrote what I meant and I meant what I wrote.
Merry CHRISTmas and whatever other seasonal salutation best butters your theological/ideological/philosphical biscuit. [I mean that in the kindest sense.]
“In their politically correct fantasy such distinctions do not even exist.”
Assuming this is true, why would this cause you to use a gender specific pronoun? Isn’t that the opposite of what makes sense?
Lol Mary, that is true.
Ken you had me all worried so I checked, you’ll be relieved to know I’m still a man. I do find it quite telling that you refer to men you dislike as women, so you just dislike women? Everyone who is “bad” in your eyes is a woman?
Deluded,
I have never written that A&E suspended Phil for being a christian.
Identifying sin is not synonynous with christian except in your narrow view.
Here is A&E published statement.
“His [Phil Robertson] personal views in no way reflect those of
A&E Networks, who have always been strong supporters and champions of the LGBT community.
The network has placed Phil under hiatus from filming indefinitely.”
Phil was supended because his perspective on homosexulity did not comport with A&E’s. No rational person would assert that it was based on business or economics. It was an idiotological decision based on pure emotion.
Phil now has experienced one reason why the ‘book’ warns followers of Jesus not to be ‘unequally yoked’.
This is the same politically correct crap that Starbucks trotted out when some of their shareholders objected to their funding a same sex union ballot measure in Washington State.
The same bigoted bovine scatualtion that Starbucks served up when people who openly carried frequented their establishments to socialize.
The same thinly veiled bigotry when they instruct their employees NOT to wish their customers a Merry Christmas, but instead to say, Happy Holidays.
You are so deluded that you cannot see that corporate censorship is just as insidious as state censorship.
The ‘more than equals’ are determined to dictate to the unwashed majority what they may or may not think or say publicly.
What? Oh sorry Kenny, I fell asleep in the middle of your little rant.
I realize you won’t be satisfied until every single company has traditional Western Christian values and fires only people you personally disagree with.
I think I’m gonna get hired at a Christian bookstore or something and then give a television interview taking about how much I think Christianity is awful, and how Christians are just illogical blah blah blah. See how long I keep my job.
And if you’ll remember I kinda wish that A&E hadn’t fired the dude, but it’s not my company,
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says: December 22, 2013 at 2:40 pm
Ken you had me all worried so I checked, you’ll be relieved to know I’m still a man. I do find it quite telling that you refer to men you dislike as women, so you just dislike women? Everyone who is “bad” in your eyes is a woman?
It is telling that you had to check. With whom did you check with? I hope you don’t confuse the presence of male anatomy and post pubescent fuzz with manhood.
My sexual preference is women, tho I have chosen to limit myself to the one who is the mother of our five children.
Hi Ken,
I can be the biggest white supremacist on the planet if I choose to be. I can spew all the racist and anti semitic venom I want. However this is Jill’s blog and as such she can dictate the standards and what will and will not be tolerated, and she is fully within her rights to ban me from this blog if I don’t keep the hatred in check. Its not about my freedom of speech, its about Jill’s right to determine what she, the owner of the blog, sets as standards and will permit. I may not agree, I may get mad, others may get mad and say they won’t post anymore. So be it. It is her blog, its her decision.
Same with Starbucks. Its their decision to make.
I have no problem with Happy Holidays, its been around as long as I have and I’ve often used it myself and still do, and considering there may be customers of the Jewish and other faiths, it may just be good PR and more all inclusive.
Ah that makes sense, Ken. I ask if you dislike women, you come back with “they are my sexual preference”. So you think of women as nothing more than sex objects. Makes sense given your prior comments on this blog blaming rape victims and such,
In my years of arguing with you Ken, I’ve never gotten a sense of what you think a “man” is. But I’m pretty sure you think it’s any male who agrees with the vast majority of your opinions.
Please Ken (3:09PM), can we keep this discussion out of the septic tank?
If he can be fired for expressing his dislike of homosexuality than why can’t a Christian business fire somebody for saying homosexuality is not a sin? They not only want it both ways with their sex partners but also with their censorship.
Mary says: December 22, 2013 at 2:22 pm
“That last sentence which I don’t even want to repeat.
Isn’t that getting a little crass?”
Mary,
Forgive me. I did not mean to neglect your inquiry.
If I understand the definition of ‘crass’ correctly then the answer to your question would be, No.
It would not be a little crass, it would be very crass.
When Phil Robertson is accused by homosexuals as being ‘vile’ because he is ‘crass’ enough to use anatomically correct terms to publicly offer his preference as a man to choose a womans reproductive anatomy over a males digestive anatomy, either the beginning or the end of it, for the purposes of sexual gratification, then I will freely accept that my statement was MORE than a little ‘crass’ and it was deliberately and intentionally so.
The homosexual lobby does not want to discuss what they do to each other to satisfy themselves sexually because they truly understand and experience what ‘vile’ is and they know the vast majority of Americans would be ‘reviled’ if they knew too.
I know your question is not specious, but well intended to steer me away from ‘crassness’ and into polite and civil conversation which is not easily accomplished when the subject matter is so marinated in perversions of the ‘vilest’ type.
I will indulge in some introspection and make any corrections that may be indicated.
I thought the comic with the sign-langyage guy to clear up Obamacare was hilarious and spot on. It made me lol.
They CAN truthseeker. The hypocrisy you state does not exist.
Hi Ken,
Thank you for a response.
Ken I don’t want to know and I certainly don’t care what people do to sexually satisfy themselves or others, so long as its mutual consent, so the graphic description isn’t necessary. Also, as much as we may all disagree, we can conduct ourselves like civilized adults. EGV and I have had our share of heated words, but we’ve always kept it out of the septic tank.
I’m trying to point out how you debase yourself and your argument with some of these cruder comments. Any valid point you are trying to make is lost. People don’t take what you have to say seriously.
I tell you this as a friend.
Mary – I’m catching up here, and maybe you responded, but you seem like you would be in favor of allowing an employer to not offer maternity care, but offer abortion in a health care plan. Yes?
Ken -
Are you actually saying anything, or just whining and complaining? Do you think it should be illegal for A&E to do what they did, or do you think it should be legal? I don’t care if you think it’s fair, wise, or anything else – legal or illegal.
I’ve also often found those who speak most about homosexuality in descriptive terms do so for a good reason. I will let you know, we (Jack and I) will support you 100% if this is the venue you choose to share any secrets with.
Deluded,
If I preferred males over women for my sexual gratification, would I then be making all males ‘sex objects’ according to your subjective perspective?
What if I was bi-sexual?
What then?
What is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’ at this moment according to your Etch a Sketch standard?
If you get to choose according to your relativistic and subjective whims, then why not I?
As far as rape goes and who is responsible.
If I tell my child not to play in the street and he/she disregards my instruction and a driver deliberately runs over my child, then my dead child bore some responsibility for his/her own death because she/he rejected sound wisdom, but that in no way relieves the driver of his/her culpablity.
If I had not instructed my child, then I would also bear some responsiblity.
But I will grieve my child’s loss, no more and no less.
EGV, 4:07PM
No.
Mary –
I’m confused.
So you think that an employer has the right to decide services in a plan, but not all services? Are you saying that there should be some bare minimum services that all plans have to adhere to, or what are you saying?
Lol Ex I’m laughing out loud genuinely at your 4:13pm comment. Ken’s comments certainly have the “Ted Haggard” quality to them.
About your 4:07pm comment, I think abortion is a bad analogy. Obviously abortion should be illegal, so she wouldn’t be cool with an employer covering it. A better analogy IMO would be a Jehovah’s Witness who owns a company refusing to provide policies that cover blood transfusions. They shouldn’t be able to deny that, but I do have sympathy for them feeling as though it violates their religious freedom. It’s just a good argument to move away from this awful system of employers providing something as personal and essential as healthcare.
Jack –
You might be right – I think an employer even rejecting maternity care, which I think Mary is okay with, would be a ticket for people to get abortions, whether or not it is covered. So Mary – do you think they should rightfully deny maternity and birth coverage?
The next wave is coming Jack – I know, because I have ties into the industry. The next wave will be financial ties to a person’s well being – people with overweight on BMIs will pay more than those who don’t. People will other health factors will pay more. Insurance tied to employment is a mess.
Starbucks probably figures it has a lot of people to serve, and that saying, “Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa, Blessed Ramadan, Merry Christmas, and Peaceful Tet” will take too long. So “Happy Holidays” makes sense.
The same thinly veiled bigotry when they instruct their employees NOT to wish their customers a Merry Christmas, but instead to say, Happy Holidays. – See more at: https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/12/stanek-sunday-funnies-12-22-13/#sthash.zFjSM6Bs.dpuf
The same thinly veiled bigotry when they instruct their employees NOT to wish their customers a Merry Christmas, but instead to say, Happy Holidays. – See more at: https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/12/stanek-sunday-funnies-12-22-13/#sthash.zFjSM6Bs.dpuf
The same thinly veiled bigotry when they instruct their employees NOT to wish their customers a Merry Christmas, but instead to say, Happy Holidays. – See more at: https://www.jillstanek.com/2013/12/stanek-sunday-funnies-12-22-13/#sthash.zFjSM6Bs.dpuf
“The next wave is coming Jack – I know, because I have ties into the industry. The next wave will be financial ties to a person’s well being – people with overweight on BMIs will pay more than those who don’t. People will other health factors will pay more. Insurance tied to employment is a mess. ”
Yup. I think they are already allowed, at least in some states, to charge higher premiums or deductibles for smokers right? I don’t know what to think about all that besides that employers shouldn’t be the ones who decide what healthcare you have access to or what prices you will pay.
Yes Jack – smoking is already a widespread one. The next one will be weight – those making strides will get small incentives ($20 a month, stuff like that), while others will face penalties.
The problem is that the right is so against regulation on health care, that a total free market would be a mess if we allow discrimination on pre-existing conditions, or allow bare market plans – stuff that truth and Mary support. You’d end up with old, sick, disabled, and those with conditions on super expensive plans while the healthy end up on cheap plans in the ‘race for the bottom’.
Ken, the point is, if someone asks me “do you dislike women” I don’t respond with “I find them sexually attractive” I would say something like “no I don’t dislike women, they are people with good and bad just like men”. Doesn’t really answer the question to blather on about how you enjoy having sex with them, plenty of misogynists are attracted to women sexually but dislike them as human beings.
Considering that every time a man disagrees with you on here you start calling him a woman, it’s blatantly obvious you see something wrong with women in general. Using “you’re a girl” as an insult is something boys should outgrow by age eight.
Ex-RINO,
Contractual obligations aside, what A&E did has nothing to do with legal or illegal.
AE made a decision based on their corporate philosophy not the bottom line.
“A&E Networks, who have always been strong supporters and champions of the LGBT community.”
If AE had simply stopped there and dis-associated themselves from Phil’s personal opinion. no problema.
But Phil’s philosophy did not comport with AE and ideological zealots they are, they made a philosphical decision, as opposed to a business decision, to punish Phil for expressing his contrary opinion publicly, in another medium, that in no way competed with them.
Consumer sentiment is overwhelmingly behind Phil. AE is willing to walk away from hundreds of millions of dollars simply because they are offended by Phil’s sentiments. Someone else will seize the opportunity to capitalize on a proven success.
If I was a stockholder in AE I would be furious, and I am sure most stockholders are, that AE management could mis-manage something this badly. [Makes me wonder if these guys had something to do with healthcare.gov]
Bottom line the real bigots in this scenario are the AE folks.
Whether what AE did is ‘legal or illegal’ does not make it any more or less viewpoint ‘discrimination’. [Kind of fits in with that prima donald vindictive stereotype who takes the bull by both their limp wrists and cuts off their own brown nose to spite both their faces.]
Personally, I hope Phil and his family just go back to making duck calls and enjoy their continued succes in life.
ps: I have never watched the show. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
Ken-
You could have saved a lot of words and simply said that you don’t think it should be illegal. I don’t get two flips about was it wise or not – who cares? I couldn’t even tell you if I get that network. I’m just interested, like I asked, if you and others were simply complaining, or if you had jumped from your conservative roots and taken a ‘power to the people’ free speech at work mentality.
I think you owe Jack and I an apology for your earlier comments.
“Yes Jack – smoking is already a widespread one. The next one will be weight – those making strides will get small incentives ($20 a month, stuff like that), while others will face penalties. ”
Hmmm will they do the same for underweight people? My BMI and plenty of other people’s is either on the very low end of healthy or all the way to underweight. What if people can’t afford the higher prices? They just don’t get insurance?
I agree with you on how free market insurance ends up. It was bad in the first place, it will be worse if the completely free market people get hold of the system.
Jack -
It’s all in the payroll, so one’s check will just be lighter. Lovely huh?
EGV, 4:21PM
Given your confusion I will try to make it simple.
The insurance companies sell the plans, the employers offer it as a benefit.
The companies will offer certain benefits, they won’t offer others, i.e. cosmetic surgery. Now do I think employers get to pick and choose? Well, when they select plans they do. What gives the best coverage, what is most economical, etc. Will Cadillac cancer coverage be offered? Maybe not. You may have to purchase your own private cancer policy. So in effect the employer is choosing the coverage. No one is forced to take it. Our employer also offers life and disability insurance but only to a certain amount. If I don’t think its adequate, then I purchase an additional policy.
Why employers MUST provide contraception coverage and not soap, toothpaste, and hygienic product coverage is what I don’t understand as the latter are certainly as essential to health as is contraception.
Its like when you purchase insurance for your home EGV, only certain things will be covered and the insurance company has determined what it will pay for. They will pay for natural disaster, fire, and vandalism damage, but not to replace a worn out hot water heater.
Insurance doesn’t cover everything and was never intended to.
You aren’t making it simple Mary – you’d make it simple if you answered the question directly.
Do you think an employer should be able to offer a plan in which they simply say no coverage is paid toward maternity care or birthing services?
Oh yes maternity care,
Well, if an employer has female employees of childbearing age, it wouldn’t be much of a benefit not to cover maternity care, ya think? Imagine a hospital’s employee insurance not covering maternity care. Imagine this hospital trying to attract employees.
Now for a garage owner with 3 or 4 older male employees who’s wives are long past childbearing, maternity coverage is almost laughable, so its highly unlikely he would include it. Now if he needs to hire new and younger people, that would likely have to change.
Simple enough?
Mary – your inability to answer a question directly is simply startling.
So you are saying yes, you’d allow businesses to simply chop off coverage as they see fit. No minimum standards of service at all. I think that’s crazy.
EGV,
Your inability to understand basic sensible business decisions is even more startling.
Mary, he’s asking if you think it should be legal to let employers not offer maternity care in any situation. He’s not asking if you think it’s a good idea for a business to do,
Mary -
It is great business to be able to pick and choose – but it’s bad policy. I simply don’t think you understand the concept of insurance and how it works. If you have a two plans available in the world, and one covers cancer and is expensive, and the other doesn’t is cheap – and you don’t have those minimum standards – all the healthy people leave the plan that covers cancer for the bare bones plan – and thus the rate for those with cancer keeps climbing because you can’t spread out the costs.
You conservatives could make health care work if you understood a little bit better how health care worked. Yikes.
Mary,
Your objection to the ‘sewer’ makes the point that most americans do not know and would be reviled at what ‘homosexuality’ really is.
This is what Phil got into so much trouble.
I reminded of the scene from the movie about William Wilberforce where he made his fellow citizens and abolitionists smell the stench emanating from the bilge of empty slave ship.
It was the lingering smell of the decomposition of human dignity.
Ken, Paladin was telling me he thinks people can share their moral viewpoints in a cruel way that “inoculates” others in a way, so they close their ears to being told truths about the immorality of homosexual behavior, or the truth about Gods love, etc. Can you look at your words and tell me if you really believe you are speaking about your fellow man in a way Jesus would be proud of?
“They CAN truthseeker. The hypocrisy you state does not exist.”
Deluded Lib, are you saying that an employer can legally fire an individual for promoting a homosexual lifestyle choice?
Ex-GOP says: December 22, 2013 at 4:50 pm
Ken-
You could have saved a lot of words and simply said that you don’t think it should be illegal.
I think you owe Jack and I an apology for your earlier comments.
Ex & Deluded,
Ex, I answered your question.
u 2 are attached at the head. Compile a list of things I have written that you find objectionable, offensive, insulting, etc and send it to my email address and I will give it all the consideration which you undoubtedly believe it deserves and I will get back to you.
Jack,
That’s what I’m pointing out. Let some large employer not offer maternity care and its unlikely they will attract employees, right? So if they want employees, they offer what benefits they can, and are pertinent, and I would think maternity care definitely ranks up there. Now they can make the choice not to have it, but it would be one very stupid business decision, ya think? Businesses want to attract quality employees and make money, right?
There are also businesses where it wouldn’t be necessary to have it, like the example I gave so yes employer would have the option to say no, I don’t need maternity coverage at this time. Should I get younger employees of childbearing age and I want to keep them, I will have to offer it.
The employer may also decide if it is feasible to offer drug and alcohol rehab coverage. For some businesses this may not be feasible or affordable.
Truthseeker, in over half the states you can be fired legally for simply being gay, no “promoting” about it. Sexual orientation isn’t yet a legally protected class, like religion, race and gender are. Plus, most state allow you to fire for no reason at all. Yes it’s completely legal for a business to fire someone for “promoting homosexuality” especially if it was a public statement like Duck dude did to talk about his views.
EGV,
Pick and choose is exactly what I do with my insurance, and I get the bare essentials, oh and no maternity care. The hospital switched to this some time ago to save on costs and still offer the basics.
The hospital has picked and chosen many times as our insurance has changed. I notice that for some time such things as mental health care and drug and alcohol rehab are no longer offered. I don’t know if this is the company’s or the hospital’s decision, but can they pick and choose like this?
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says: December 22, 2013 at 4:46 pm
“Ken, the point is, if someone asks me “do you dislike women” I don’t respond with “I find them sexually attractive” “
Deluded,
First of all I thank GOD that I am not you.
And I am sure that GOD knows my heart concerning women, and I am equally sure that you do not.
If we had been discussing beastiality and you asked me if disliked Chihuahuas, I would have responded, “No, I find women sexually attractive.”
At least my answer would have spared Chihuahuas the indignity of ‘objectivication’.
But then you would have accused me of equating women with dogs, and homosexuality with beastiality.
Matt 15:22-28 22 And behold, a woman who was a Canaanite from that district came out and, with a [loud, troublesomely urgent] cry, begged, Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is miserably and distressingly and cruelly possessed by a demon! 25 But she came and, kneeling, worshiped Him and kept praying, Lord, help me! 26 And He answered, It is not right (proper, becoming, or fair) to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs. 27 She said, Yes, Lord, yet even the little pups ( little whelps) eat the crumbs that fall from their [young] masters’ table. 28 Then Jesus answered her, O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you wish. And her daughter was cured from that moment. AMP
“First of all I thank GOD that I am not you.”
Lol why I’m not too bad, and I thought God loved even people like me!
“If we had been discussing beastiality and you asked me if disliked Chihuahuas, I would have responded, “No, I find women sexually attractive.” ”
Ah, I see. You’re just mentally slow. That’s all right kiddo I’ll explain. You keep calling me, or Ex, or any other males that you don’t like women. This would imply you think women are bad in some way. I don’t use positive words to insult people, so obviously you find “woman ” the most negative thing you can think of when insulting a man . That is sad, Ken doll.
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer says: December 22, 2013 at 5:50 pm
Ken, Paladin was telling me he thinks people can share their moral viewpoints in a cruel way that “inoculates” others in a way, so they close their ears to being told truths about the immorality of homosexual behavior, or the truth about Gods love, etc. Can you look at your words and tell me if you really believe you are speaking about your fellow man in a way Jesus would be proud of?
Deluded,
I have written bluntly about homosexuality, primarily male homosexuality. I have written about the things they do in secret. [I will let you find that scripture reference in the New Testament] I have written about behaviors that lead to misery, disease and death, both physical and spiritual. These are things reasonable people are uncomfortable considering.
Even GLADD says Phil Robertsons remarks were ‘vile’, when all Phil expressed was an inability to understand why one man would be attracted to another man sexually and he used anatomically correct terms to do it.
The homosexuals and their fellow travelers pervert that into hate speech.
There is no hate in it.
Homosexuality is ‘vile’.
If I really thought the way I wrote was giving aid and comfort to the humanist agenda, even indirectly, I would not do it. I just have to look at how most americans have responded to Phil’s candid remarks and know that Paladin is mistaken.
Americans are not running away from Phil Roberston they are voting with their feet and running to his aid.
So the people who got sued when they refused to support a homosexual service by baking them a cake could have refused to hire the homosexuals but they couldn’t refuse to bake them a cake?
For the love of all that is holy truthseeker, I’m not your go-to for gay news, if you’re curious about the laws regarding discrimination look them up. I don’t know Colorado’s discrimination laws and I don’t really care, look then up yourself. It is true though, that it’s legal to fire people for being gay in many states.
I have written bluntly about homosexuality, primarily male homosexuality. – you have written hatefully about it.
I have written about the things they do in secret. – and how do you know what they do ‘in secret’?
I have written about behaviors that lead to misery, disease and death, both physical and spiritual. – homosexuals don’t do anything some heterosexuals do.
These are things reasonable people are uncomfortable considering. – that’s ok. We all feel uncomfortable about some things that some people do. That’s life.
The homosexuals and their fellow travelers pervert that into hate speech. There is no hate in it. – that’s rich.
Homosexuality is ‘vile’. – isn’t it good that you have the freedom to express your opinion.
If I really thought the way I wrote was giving aid and comfort to the humanist agenda, even indirectly, I would not do it. – yes, can’t be humanist now can we.
If you don’t like homosexuality kentheburper, you don’t have to do it.
Ken, I was talking about how you were talking directly to Ex and me. Somehow I can’t see Jesus being cool with the way you treat people on this blog and probably in other areas of your life.
I would say #3 is my favorite with an exception to a few of the statements.
Ugh, private insurance is unaffordable for me and so I’m signing up on the healthcare.gov site (my mom reassures me the security and technical issues have been addressed and resolved), however I’m still having problems. I’ve completed my application and have sucessfully verified my identification with Experian twice now by the 1-800 number provided, but I am continuing to see a message on my profile here at the health care market place that my identity has not been verified. Any ideas? I’m currently on hold waiting on a customer service representative to become available.
LADYBUG!!!
You shouldn’t have gone within a hundred yards of that site!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101225308
OK Jack. No need to get your undies in a bunch while crying out to all that is holy. There seems to be a disconnect if homosexuals could be refused employment but not refused supporting a homosexual service by baking them a cake.
Maybe Louisianna can pass a law where Christians can’t be fired for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality
It’s not really a disconnect, being an employee and being a consumer are completely different things. I don’t know if Colorado is one of those states that allows employment discrimination though.
I do feel like some people will not be satisfied until they can discriminate against others in any way they see fit, legally.
“Maybe Louisianna can pass a law where Christians can’t be fired for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality”
Can’t let you do that Star Fox. If you pass those kind of laws, you are preventing employers from letting go employees who speak publicly about any view the company may not want to associate themselves with, unless you think that the language of the law should be specific to Christians. Then you have the “equal treatment under the law” thing that would be broken, which would make such laws unconstitutional.
Mary – then your plan wasn’t changed because of Obamacare – if it was, it would have been required to offer maternity care.
Ken – I’m not emailing you – I honestly question your mental stability – the less info, the better.
Ex you’re no fun, I am curious to see what kind of emails you’d get from him. I have suspicions. :)
I have suspicions now as well…
News flash EGV,
It was changed because of Obamacare, we were informed as such, our insurance always offered maternity care and does now, I ‘m just not signed up for it. It would be laughable if I was. Only the bare bones coverage.
Ex, if I paid you ten bucks would you e-mail him and forward anything you receive from him to me? Just putting the offer out there.
Oh yeah if you do that Ex, get my email too and forward it to me as well. I’ve lived too long, it’s time to die laughing.
Mary -
I’m not so sure.
How many employees does the place have? Full time people?
JDC/Jack -
I don’t think he’d reveal enough to satisfy the suspicions that have come up.
truthseeker says:
December 22, 2013 at 7:17 pm
“Maybe Louisianna can pass a law where Christians can’t be fired for speaking out against the sin of homosexuality.”
________________________________
Silly.
Such petty prejudices are increasingly less meaningful in the US, thankfully. Talk of “sin” there is ludicrous.
“Such petty prejudices are increasingly less meaningful in the US, thankfully. Talk of “sin” there is ludicrous.”
Well people are entitled to their beliefs, whatever they are. Homosexuality is a sin in many people’s views, it seems like a viewpoint pretty much endemic to Christianity to me. The ridiculous part comes in thinking that companies are obligated to employ someone.
EGV,
I am sure. I did the signing up like I have every year and we chose bare bones coverage.
Employees have that option and we took it.
You didn’t address my question about mental health and drug and alcohol rehab. Shouldn’t this be on every policy as well? Its not on ours and hasn’t been for a while.
Mary –
If there are less than 50 employees, then there might be some loopholes.
Otherwise, mental health for sure should be in – I think rehab services as well. Something seems fishy.
Considerably more than 50 employees….in my dept. alone.
Nothing fishy, telling it to you as it is. Medical, surgical, dental, life, disability. Maternity may be under medical, but we signed up for the bare minimum to cover my husband’s diabetic costs.
EGV,
But there shouldn’t be loopholes, right? Won’t everyone be getting equal treatment under Obamacare?
Nope – in theory, that would be nice – but health care in the free market isn’t that easy. Small vs large businesses differences – grandfathered plans – employer based vs private market. Throw in medicare, medicaid – it’s a mess. Has been, and will continue to be.
I wasn’t asking about health care in the free market, I was asking about it under Obamacare. There should be no loopholes or inequalities, right? Wasn’t that the whole point?
Myra, homosexuality is a sin. And it is not petty. It is a completely unnatural abnormal aberration that needs to be treated.
Truth let me ask you honestly. Do you think speaking that way will make a person involved in homosexual relationships feel safe and loved, and want to learn more about how your church views homosexuality, come to you guys for healing, that kinda stuff? Or do you not care and just want to say your piece?
I speak that way because people need to speak the truth or else people will be led astray.
Ah. So you don’t really care if some gay or bi person is reading your (or Ken’s, or anyone else’s words that drip with disgust and barely concealed if at all contempt) words, and it turns them away from ever seeking the truth you claim to be wanting to share?
I do not believe in manipulating people with deception.
It’s not about deception. It’s about tempering your words with kindness and love. Paladin and Bobby Bambino, just to name a couple Catholics on this blog, are excellent at being firm with what they think is right while still showing that they love and care for the person they are trying to reach. You and Ken and some others don’t. Your words tend to read as disgust and contempt. I don’t think that’s very productive if you actually wanted some gay or bi person to take your words under consideration. A lot of gay or bisexual people think Christians hate them and see them as degenerates, you’re not dispelling that stereotype. And other Christians rarely say anything about the more mean people, so I don’t think it’s any surprise when many reject the church when they otherwise wouldn’t.
Myra, homosexuality is a sin. And it is not petty. – only to some. And if those people don’t indulge then there’s no problem. For everyone else, it’s no drama.
It is a completely unnatural abnormal aberration that needs to be treated. – no more unnatural than red hair or being left-handed. And there is no ‘treatment’ for it any more than there is for being a redhead or left-handed.
Hey gang, no worries as Phil will get a pretty lucrative job offer soon and A&E can continue to offer programming for ALL of the 10 people that watch the channel.
“A lot of gay or bisexual people think Christians hate them and see them as degenerates, you’re not dispelling that stereotype.”
Jack, If I hated them I would have said that but I didn’t say that you did. The only stereotype I want to dispel here is the one you are trying to spread.
“Nothing fishy, telling it to you as it is. Medical, surgical, dental, life, disability. Maternity may be under medical, but we signed up for the bare minimum to cover my husband’s diabetic costs.”
So you don’t actually know if maternity care is covered under your medical? Why did you say it definitely wasn’t? Even the basic plans employers subsidize, under the ACA are required to carry certain services now, I’m not sure how the grandfathering works but I think there is a basic level of coverage that is now required.
Stepping into this debate a bit late…but just my opinion:
If you oppose homosexuality and/or same-sex marriage, fine. If you support it, fine. But I really don’t see how this issue relates to pro-life issues. As for my own view…as the internet meme says, “I’ll start opposing gay marriage when they start performing abortions at their weddings.”
“Jack, If I hated them I would have said that but I didn’t say that you did. The only stereotype I want to dispel here is the one you are trying to spread.”
I give up. Apparently no matter how I try to explain how it comes across, you obviously don’t care. It’s plain to me that it’s less about saving souls to some people and more about condemnation. I really wish that you would put yourself in the shoes of some gay or bi person reading your words and imagine how you might react to them, you seem to have difficulty emphasizing in that way.
Padma I agree with you it shouldn’t be tied to the pro-life movement, it holds us back in my opinion. I think that the people who think it’s related have the argument that sexuality is supposed to be a certain way, and any expressions of sexuality that are not one woman + one man married for life w/o using contraceptives assists in removing sexuality from it’s proper place and assists in making abortion more acceptable. I believe they see all forms of sexuality besides married couples as related to things like abortion. Even people who obviously can’t have abortions, like gay men.
DLPL says to TS “I give up. Apparently no matter how I try to explain how it comes across, you obviously don’t care.”
If I may – it may not be much to offer here but I think the point is not to focus on how something comes across from another. Obsessing on how others’ express themselves is futile. People are people and are entiltled to their uncensored o
opinions.
I think the best thing would be to talk about the weather just about now. Still snowing by you DLPL?
Not good enough Thomas. People can express themselves as they wish. They should stop pretending they “love” and “care about” people they continually degrade and alienate if they wish to express themselves though. If anyone actually cares about the souls and sins of LGBT people, they should listen to people telling them how their words tend to come across. There are about a million other ways to share their opinions that don’t make people feel unsafe in church or around Christians.
No snow here! The part that I moved to rarely gets snow anyway, I’ve been reassured. I have to drive to the mountains to go snowboarding if I wanna try that out! :)
Liberals delude themselves into confusion by equating hate with conviction.
To a liberal, love is no deeper than telling someone you are ok with whatever they do. I know gang-bangers with deeper love than liberals.
“I know gang-bangers”
To me, this is actually the interesting part of the sentence. Where exactly have you been meeting gang-bangers?
“To a liberal, love is no deeper than telling someone you are ok with whatever they do. I know gang-bangers with deeper love than liberals. ”
That’s ridiculous. I feel like you never read the Bible or something. I remember Jesus talking to the woman at the well, I don’t remember him telling her she was a vile aberration, even though she was a Samaritan and slept with men she wasn’t married to and had like five husbands previously or whatever. I remember him offering love and eternal life while being honest that her life choices were sinful. I also remembering him defending the adulteress from being treated in a callous and degrading manner and being stoned by the Pharisees. Again, he told her to “sin no more”, but there was no hate and alienation from him. If Christianity is about following Jesus, I don’t see how many of the ways that people talk about LGBT people would be acceptable to Jesus. You’re supposed to be following the guy who came for those who were lost, and allowed people like tax collectors to become his disciples and forgave Peter for denying him three times. I just don’t see how people justify the way they treat sinners. Jesus is awesome. His current followers? Kinda hit or miss, and I don’t see why you can’t understand that you’re alienating people who supposedly want to reach.
JDC, Should have read ‘from what I know about gang-bangers’ sorry if your interests are let down. The point was that gang-bangers are known to fight one-another if necessary in order to keep one another from behaving in ways that are detrimental to their well being. Liberals not so much.
Hardy har you’ve quite obviously never spent time among gangs, truthseeker.
“JDC, Should have read ‘from what I know about gang-bangers’”
Okay, thanks for the clarification.
Jack, you yourself just said Jesus told them they were sinning. What I said was more to you who have tried to argue that homosexuality is as normal and as natural as heterosexuality. If we can start by agreeing to that homosexuality is not normal and it is not natural then there would no reason to debate it any further.
It’s natural enough. You see homosexual behavior in nature, there is evidence there is a biological component. That doesn’t make it right or moral, but there’s obviously a component of not being solely heterosexual that is natural to the people who feel such inclinations. Like… I think most straight dudes “naturally” want to sleep with a bunch of women, but it’s not right or moral. I’ve never heard anyone call heterosexual men “unnatural” for wanting to have sex with women they aren’t married to, though.
Abnormal I guess fits, “uncommon” would be a better word I think, it has kinder implications.
“They should stop pretending they “love” and “care about” people they continually degrade and alienate if they wish to express themselves though. ”
I totally agree DLPL. The question I am asking myself though is: does TS pretend or is he a genuine himself. This is how he responded to you:
“I do not believe in manipulating people with deception.”
So ask yourself if that was a pretend statement or did TS mean what he said. He has strong beliefs and so do you. Neither one of you is going to change the other. So how about more weather talk? :)
Jack,
Of course the policy covers maternity. I said I only signed up for minimal medical coverage to cover my husband’s diabetic expenses, the rest is out of pocket. Younger employees would likely get the full medical coverage to cover maternity costs. Since I obviously have no need for nor want to pay for the full, I don’t. In fact I wouldn’t have to buy it at all if I didn’t want to. Since its a large pool, it likely makes little difference, other than giving me and others the option.
“So ask yourself if that was a pretend statement or did TS mean what he said.”
He probably does believe it. That doesn’t mean that he couldn’t use a little empathy or kindness along with his condemnation of a certain behavior. If the church is a place to be safe and loved, it’s definitely not coming across with the way many people talk about LGBT people. Which is all I’m saying. Notice how I haven’t tried to argue that homo/bisexuality is moral or right behavior. I can accept it’s not and I can’t find any Biblical justification that it’s okay. What I can’t accept is the awful way some people talk about the people who have these inclinations or act them out. I can’t imagine how anyone sees that as a good idea.
Empathy does not come naturally. Its like the American Indian saying “walk a mile in my moccasins and you will know my journey.” There is no empathy without actual experience and neither should we expect others to be able to relate.
My clients confuse sympathy and empathy quite a bit nowadays…
I am not saying you won’t be able to find a monkey or some other animal acting out in homosexual ways, but they would be the aberration. If you believe in Darwinism then you would most certainly maintain that homosexual behavior is unnatural because if it wasn’t then it would lead to the distinction of most species.
One other aspect, from the Christian perspective, is that homosexuality is an ungodly act. Christians are unable to accept homosexuality as just another Christian lifestyle choice because to do so would be denying God’s primacy as the root of Christianity.
There are about a million other ways to share their opinions that don’t make people feel unsafe in church or around Christians.
Can you give me examples of how to share my opinion with people who make me feel unsafe, Jack? How do I share my opinion with others who believe I am one of the stupidest people on the planet just because I believe in what the Catholic Church teaches? How should I share my opinions with those who believe I don’t belong in a public school because I actually believe in everything the Catholic Church teaches? Or should I just keep my mouth shut because I feel unsafe? Would it be okay of me to tell a bisexual neighbor, coworker, student, friend that his behavior is not moral or right behavior?
I get that Thomas. Maybe it’s impossible for heterosexual Christians to feel real empathy for LGBT people. BUT, they should be able to feel sympathy. If “sympathy” is defined as “acknowledging another’s hardships and providing comfort and assurance”, I don’t think that’s an impossible goal for Christians in regards to everyone, including people who are not heterosexual. And some do an excellent job. What I mostly see is that heterosexual men (and some women) have a difficult time overcoming whatever personal disgust they have towards the behavior to look at the person as just another wayward child of God, no different from a practicing alcoholic or someone who is living with their partner before they are married.
“Can you give me examples of how to share my opinion with people who make me feel unsafe, Jack? How do I share my opinion with others who believe I am one of the stupidest people on the planet just because I believe in what the Catholic Church teaches? How should I share my opinions with those who believe I don’t belong in a public school because I actually believe in everything the Catholic Church teaches? Or should I just keep my mouth shut because I feel unsafe? Would it be okay of me to tell a bisexual neighbor, coworker, student, friend that his behavior is not moral or right behavior?”
If you actually read my comments you’d see I have no beef with telling people you think their behavior is wrong. My problem is with talk of “vileness” and “aberrations” and a lack of focusing on how the person is loved by God as a human being. You can’t tell me you read Ken’s comments and see anything but disgust for gay and bisexual men, there, can you? Where’s the “there’s a better way!” or even a “God loves you and wants what’s best for you, which is not homosexual behavior”. Where’s the hope and love? That’s my problem. Like I said, I accept that it’s a sin to engage in homosexual behavior. I can’t accept that it’s okay to treat LGBT people like they are honestly the worst, most vile humans who have ever existed (slight exaggeration, but not really). How could you expect anyone to want to listen if people like Ken blabber their mouths and no one says anything about it. Well, Ex did, but he didn’t from a religious perspective, I don’t honestly know what he thinks about homosexuality morally.
“look at the person as just another wayward child of God, no different from a practicing alcoholic or someone who is living with their partner before they are married.”
Jack, Yes both are wayward children of God. But there are easily discernable differences between acting out homosexually and heterosexuals living together outside of marriage. God’s plan for the Christian family is based centrally on the union of a man and woman that unite to become mother and father of their children. That goes very deep and is fundamental to the Christian faith.
And Prax I don’t think anyone should be calling you “stupid” or degrading you because of your religious beliefs. If you notice, I did say something to Myra for calling it “silly” and such.
Yes, truth, I get you think that homosexuals are just worse in general. Whatever. I simply can’t accept that LGBT people are worse. I can accept we’re all sinners like everyone else, but can’t accept we’re worse, especially if refraining from behaviors.
The definition of sympathy is “feeling sorry” for another. I am not sure you or anyone else would want sympathy. Sympathy allows people to be far removed from whatever it is they have sympathy for. To me its similar to patronizing…
Fine, no sympathy or empathy Thomas.
Just understanding maybe. I know its a catch 22 DLPL. The trick is to know when another is genuine I think?
Jack, I don’t think homosexuals are ‘worse’. I did not say that, you did. You asked the question so I was pointing out to you some of the discernable differences I see from a Christian perspective when comparing the heterosexual relationship outside of marriage to somebody living a homosexual lifestyle.
I don’t know Thomas. I just don’t see the attempts at understanding or the love often. It is quite telling to me, that people ignore the type of stuff Ken comes up with but they have time to get mad at me for pleading for understanding for those who aren’t heterosexual. It’s all pretty depressing. It’s not enough to accept it’s wrong to not be heterosexual, it’s like you’re also expected to accept a lot of awful rhetoric, which I don’t believe is right or Biblical.
“God loves you and wants what’s best for you, which is not homosexual behavior”.
I wonder if I could say this to a coworker?
no different from a practicing alcoholic
It’s okay if I compare a homosexual to an alcoholic? How about comparing practicing homosexuality to practicing bestiality? We all know that can get ya fired.
“I wonder if I could say this to a coworker?”
With this and your other comment. I think you are conflating employment issues with interpersonal issues. I think it’s completely fine for you to say something like that to a coworker, morally. I don’t believe that your job should be secured necessarily though. There are companies that fire people who smoke, or promote gay rights like SSM, and that’s all legal. I don’t think that employers should be required to keep you on if you don’t abide by what they decide is moral behavior. You know how the Catholic school fired the lady who got pregnant outside of marriage? I didn’t think it’s was particularly kind, but I did think they had the right to do so. I wouldn’t find it particularly kind if you were fired for expressing opposition to homosexual behavior, but they have the right to do so. Makes sense?
I think the alcoholism analogy is more fitting than bestiality. It’s certainly kinder. If you think that you’re getting through to anyone by comparing it to something that is pretty universally reviled like bestiality, I would beg to differ. You still have the right to say it though.
It really doesn’t seem to be enough to finally after years accept that homo/bisexuality is wrong… I can’t see why it seems to be a requirement to accept the ways that many talk about that. :/
Merry Christmas, everybody! :)
Uncle Si rules! Yes, the show is a “set-piece,” mightily contrived and usually enormously silly, but what the hey….
You want to see a truly sorry show, try “Lizard Lick Towing.” ;)
Truthseeker: ”confusion by equating hate with conviction” –This is what is responsible for the stuff you’ve read and been told that has you in the position you are. Hundreds and thousands of years ago, some people were just as susceptible to it.
Prax I just don’t get your complaint. I know you’re not a hateful person, I’ve seen you defend unborn babies and women in bad circumstances, including post-abortive women. I really don’t understand why you can’t see where I am coming from on this one.
Prax, to be fair, Phil didn’t really compare the two directly; he just used them both in the same sentence about sin.
Merry Christmas to you too Doug:)
Please elaborate as I am having difficulty grasping what it is you were saying about thousands of years and where I am today.
“…but they have time to get mad at me for pleading for understanding for those who aren’t heterosexual. It’s all pretty depressing.”
I think I understand Jack. You are putting too much effort into this “pleading” and I think you may be doing so because of experiencing cognitive dissonance about this whole matter (people are getting made at me and I am pleading indicates as much). I put that word in parenthesis because it seems misplaced in your quest, from my perspective.
It may sound harsh but to me sympathy and pleading are not necessary to move you forward. Its like some will never accept my accent and for some reason think of me as dumb just because I have one (I swear I met many who confuse accents with IQ :)).
It seems to boil down to accepting oneself. Can we live with who we are because there are always going to be those who don’t accept us based on some attribute they deem wrong. If one can honestly accept him/herself there is no need for “pleading.”
Hey, all this may just be gibberish for all I know…
“It may sound harsh but to me sympathy and pleading are not necessary to move you forward. Its like some will never accept my accent and for some reason think of me as dumb just because I have one (I swear I met many who confuse accents with IQ ). ”
Lol! People tend to think that about southern drawls as well (I have a mild one). I don’t particularly care about that. But I do not tend to hang out with those who think I’m stupid (or worse, racist) because I say words a certain way lol.
I think my problem is that I would kinda like to maybe “join a church family” or something like that. I never had a safe family, it seems like people find that surrogate family in the church a lot. I’ve also been studying a lot and finally getting to where I can actually give Christianity a chance instead of arguing against it. But I have no idea how I could justify joining something that seems to dislike people like me so strongly. I don’t even remember what religion you are, aren’t you Catholic? If you were talked about in your church like this could you honestly say that you were “part of the family”? Not feeling the love, and it makes me sad because I’ve talked to people here for literally years and it doesn’t seem to change. I can’t imagine going into some church where I don’t know anyone and hearing this stuff and ever feeling safe being there.
And plus, like I’ve said before, I think it keeps people from giving the pro-life movement a chance, and I really don’t like people rejecting pro-life because of the hate they perceive.
Correction: There are plenty of people here who do show a lot of love even to people who are not heterosexual, etc. But there certainly seems to be an undercurrent of dislike.
I don’t think that the hate is directed at the person just un-acceptance of the lifestyle. But still American Catholicism is not something I grew up around. Its softer and gentler here, believe me. I am sure that because its softer and gentler, there are many Christian Churches you can visit in your area and explore how open they would be to you.
“I don’t think that the hate is directed at the person just un-acceptance of the lifestyle.”
Really? When people like Ken say stuff like “I thank GOD I’m not you” and it goes unchallenged, it’s pretty difficult to see the hate directed at the “lifestyle” instead of people.
Did you grow up Roman Catholic in Eastern Europe? I don’t know what Christianity is like in other countries, but Eastern Europe and Russia have always seemed… fervent. Especially towards certain behaviors.
I went to church with my ex on ocassion, and after the divorce I’ve kinda snuck in the back of various different churches during the service to see what they are all about. Just haven’t found one that seems particularly inviting, yet. The church I observed last Christmas wasn’t too bad, but that’s Christmas.
Jack – yikes – I get home from work and I’ve got 50 new notification messages!
I can’t say I read every single post along the way – what I have read, there has been some good ones and some head-scratchers.
I suppose I’ve been lucky – I’ve never dealt with same-sex attraction, and while I have gay friends, they’ve never asked if I think their behavior is a sin or not – and I don’t go out of my way to judge people.
It is an easy target though. We all know plenty of greedy people, prideful people, people who can’t control their tongue – but you rarely see it called out. I think having gay people around really help some people to feel self-righteous. They’ve, of course, never (or rarely!) been involved in same-sex activities – so it’s easy for them to feel better than others because it is a sin they probably won’t ever fall into (to further elaborate, I’ve been straight as long as I know – I was born straight, never made a choice to be straight, and thus, seeing an activity that I’ll never engage in as sinful is easy for me, because it won’t ever be an issue for me).
Last thought of all my rambling. The more I know and read and learn about life, human sexuality is more of a line than an either/or – and what I mean by that is, there are a lot of people who aren’t overtly male or female when they are born – or find themselves more in the middle of the line of sexuality rather than the comfortable male or female check box. I’m rambling a bit…but I’ll sum up and say that I think there’s a lot of complicating factors – and given the amount of things I’m already sinful about (including sitting on a computer far too much time instead of using the gifts God gave me) – I try to avoid the judgmental parts of condemning all sorts of other people on their sins – when they typically haven’t asked me my thoughts anyway!
Phil didn’t really compare the two directly; he just used them both in the same sentence about sin.
You’re right. He didn’t and he still got fired.
Jack, if a public school student or coworker asks me what I think of homosexual behavior and what I believe to be sinful behaviors, do you think I could say what Phil said, “Start with homosexual behavior and just morph out from there–bestiality, sleeping around with this woman and that woman and that woman and those men.” ?
I can guarantee if I ever said ““It seems like, to me, a vagina — as a man — would be more desirable than a man’s anus,” at work – I’d be canned.
Prax, about as far as I go in the workplace is saying that God created them Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
Would it be okay of me to tell a bisexual neighbor, coworker, student, friend that his behavior is not moral or right behavior?
This was my original questions, Jack? Do you think I should be able to tell someone at work – a public school — this without out fear of losing my job?
Phil wasn’t at work. And that’s not what I asked, Ex. That’s not what I would ever say but I don’t think someone should get fired for saying this during an interview.
Prax -
That seems like a loaded question. If somebody shows up drunk at work day after day and it affects their work performance, that’s one thing.
But if I got called into somebody’s office and was told my car was too nice, and that I was greedy and sinful – I would hope that person would be reprimanded!
Prax –
It is 2013. We’re always representing the place we work. We tell employees that the first day – even on social media, you still represent the place you work. His job is the public eye.
“This was my original questions, Jack? Do you think I should be able to tell someone at work – a public school — this without out fear of losing my job?”
I’m pretty sure that I don’t agree with either you or a person who is approving of gay behavior telling students what’s right or not about sexual morality. I’m not sure I understand. Why would this be an appropriate subject for teachers/people in authority over children to talk about? The only thing I think teachers should say in regards to homosexuality to students is that it’s not okay to bully either people for being non-hetero or for thinking it’s a sin. Fair enough?
Now answer MY question. Do you think it’s okay that it’s legal to fire people for simply being gay, not even talking about it, in more than half the states?
LOL. So if someone is in the public eye, s/he should keep their mouths shut if asked their beliefs about homosexual behavior. Who decides when someone is popular enough though? I’ve never watched Duck Dynasty so they weren’t popular to me.
If I am ever interviewed for my local paper and asked my beliefs, can I state that I believe homosexual behavior is a sin?
“It is an easy target though. We all know plenty of greedy people, prideful people, people who can’t control their tongue – but you rarely see it called out. I think having gay people around really help some people to feel self-righteous. They’ve, of course, never (or rarely!) been involved in same-sex activities – so it’s easy for them to feel better than others because it is a sin they probably won’t ever fall into (to further elaborate, I’ve been straight as long as I know – I was born straight, never made a choice to be straight, and thus, seeing an activity that I’ll never engage in as sinful is easy for me, because it won’t ever be an issue for me).”
I think you have a point here. It does seem to be an easy one to pick on, and you can see the way heterosexual people talk about it (like Mr Duck Dynasty can’t IMAGINE why anyone would prefer men over women, no kidding straight dude lol). It’s really depressing though. It really does read like hate, even if people aren’t intending it that way. I really do understand that it’s a sin, I just don’t understand the rather virulent anger about it. The only sin that gets a similar amount of hate is abortion, and we see people jump to defend post-abortive women when the less kind people start hating on them.
What denomination are you Ex? I have no clue. What does you church say about homosexuality (not like what you personally think, just what your church generally teaches)? If a gay or bi person came to your church how would they be treated/accepted/whatever?
Do you think it’s okay that it’s legal to fire people for simply being gay, not even talking about it, in more than half the states?
People should not be fired for being homosexual unless they signed some kind of a contract that states that they will behave according to certain moral codes.
Prax, you again are conflating what is legal for employers to do with what people think. I don’t agree with firing Phil, I don’t think it’s very kind of A&E to do. But the fact remains that they can dismiss employees if they advance views that the company does not want to be associated with.
Let’s say that A&E was actually a conservative Christian company, and Phil instead gave an interview graphically describing how much he liked homosexual sex. Do you think they would have the right to fire him? (hint: yes, it would perfectly legal for them to fire him over that).
So what about if a company had you sign a contract, or it’s in their human resources paperwork, that you cannot continue to work for them if you publicly disagree with homosexual behavior? Do you think that would be okay?
Prax – the things I know:
1) I think he would have been okay if he would have said it tactfully. Again, look at what he actually said – it is far beyond “I think it is a sin”.
2) We’ve gone to great lengths to allow employers to do pretty much anything they want – heck, they can come and demand that you pee in a cup, without good cause or reason, at any time they want. If you want to extend greater rights to the working class – then just say it – say that you think employer freedom has gone way too far and you think that it should take a big step back. My guess is that isn’t what you actually believe.
3) On your last question, you can say whatever you want and I promise you won’t be arrested (well, I suppose you could for a threat – but for your beliefs, you can say whatever). Beyond that, there is no guarantee unless you have tenure, or if you are part of a strong union. And even then, who knows.
Why would this be an appropriate subject for teachers/people in authority over children to talk about?
Why can’t it be?
What about if I’m off campus?
Jack -
The person would be accepted, but not as a member into the congregation. They’d be fine visiting, and even attending more often than not. Our pastor has made the point that it is a sin, but also that it isn’t anything bigger than any other sin, and everybody struggles with sin. To make it into nothing isn’t acceptable, and to make it into something bigger than it is isn’t acceptable. That is what is taught.
“Why can’t it be? ”
Because it’s not your job, or any teacher’s job, to teach someone else’s kids about morality. That’s why I don’t think it’s an appropriate subject for teachers to broach.
I don’t really know what the laws are for government employees for being fired about stuff like that. I do know a private school could fire you if you stated you did or did not disagree with homosexuality, and that’s their legal right. I personally wouldn’t fire you. I’m not sure what you’re asking me.
Let’s say that A&E was actually a conservative Christian company, and Phil instead gave an interview graphically describing how much he liked homosexual sex
To compare the two, Phil would have to give an interview saying he thought married sex was sinful.
“The person would be accepted, but not as a member into the congregation. They’d be fine visiting, and even attending more often than not. Our pastor has made the point that it is a sin, but also that it isn’t anything bigger than any other sin, and everybody struggles with sin. To make it into nothing isn’t acceptable, and to make it into something bigger than it is isn’t acceptable. That is what is taught. ”
What about if they weren’t straight, but they don’t date people of the same gender, like they understand that it’s immoral so (if they are bisexual) they marry or date someone of the opposite gender, or if they are gay they remain celibate. Would they be allowed to belong then or still not? Do unmarried heterosexual couples who live together get treated the same or differently?
Okay fine, let’s say he said (graphically) that he thought married sex was sinful. Do you think A&E should be allowed to fire him?
Jack – he actually talked about that last week for a few minutes – being gay isn’t a sin in his view – acting on it is.
Unmarried heterosexuals are treated like they are engaging in sexual sin – homosexuality, pornography, unmarried behavior – all of them he lumps in together.
Because it’s not your job, or any teacher’s job, to teach someone else’s kids about morality
But PP has been doing this for years. A teacher at the local high school showed an I Can’t Change video to students last year. Is this okay?
The best solution is for people to speak openly and honestly about who they are. There is a reason that homosexuality and abortion were tabboo until the generation of the sexual revolution. Now with the ‘progressives’ society can openly progress into depravity. I don’t see where we should sacrifice the truth in order to keep from hurting somebody’s feelings. I will not call a person with a penis a girl and say he should get to use the girls restroom or play on the girls soccer team just cause he ‘feels’ like a girl.
Thanks Ex. I believe you, I haven’t seen the vitriol from you that I’ve seen from some, I doubt you’d attend a church that was that angry at gays lol. I’d probably feel safe at your church if I lived up there.
“But PP has been doing this for years. A teacher at the local high school showed an I Can’t Change video to students last year. Is this okay? ”
Wasn’t it you I discussed this with before? Of COURSE I don’t think PP or anyone else should be in schools telling people what to think about sexual morality. The only thing I think is acceptable in public schools regarding homosexuality is “it’s not okay to bully LGBT people”.
truth – the best solution for what? Christians? Life? Witnessing? Gay people?
truth and honesty are the best solution for everything Ex-RINO.
truth – when asked – sure. Running around and condemning others for their behavior? Is that what you are saying when you say honesty and truth?
Ex-RINO, I will give you an example of what it means to be a person of conviction. If you worked in an abortion mill (where we can agree that these people fail to acknowledge the barbarity of abortion) then a person of conviction might stand outside your place of work with posters of an aborted baby and ‘condemn’ you with the truth for your behavior.
Or if abortion came up in an interview I would speak openly and truthfully about the reality of abortion even though it might offend somebody who was misguided and was in denial about the barbarity.
Jack, would it be ok for somebody to fire me if I gave an interview and said abortion was barbaric and the equivalent of murder?
Truthseeker, I do think it should be legal for a private company to fire you for publicly stating views that they don’t want to be associated with. Yes, even pro-life views. Hopefully a pro-life organization would give you a job if you were fired for that.
What I think should be legal isn’t exactly what I think should be okay though. I don’t think it’s “okay” to fire people for expressing many opinions, but why should it be illegal?
Is Ex the only Christian on this blog that finds Ken and some ways of speaking to the LGBT crowd inappropriate and even mean?
“it’s not okay to bully LGBT people”.
It’s not okay to bully any people. How would a teachers even know if a student is LGBT? Students can discuss their behaviors, but teachers can’t discuss their beliefs about student behaviors? Sounds intolerant to me.
“It’s not okay to bully any people. How would a teachers even know if a student is LGBT? Students can discuss their behaviors, but teachers can’t discuss their beliefs about student behaviors? Sounds intolerant to me.”
… I know it’s not okay to bully any people. We were specifically talking about LGBT though, not other things people might be bullied for.
I thought we were talking about whether teachers should be fired for advancing their personal views on homosexuality, not about kids talking about possibly inappropriate things at school. You’re honestly just confusing me.
Prax you never answered my other question. Would you be okay if A&E fired Phil if, instead of advancing the views he did, he advanced the view that homosexual behavior was morally superior and married sex was sinful?
Jack –
I wouldn’t use this site as a measuring stick for typical Christians in America.
Idk Ex, I’ve seen the types of views expressed here a lot in other places. My ex’s church was along the same lines (which was weird, because she may not be incredibly nice but she never seemed to think homosexuality was any worse than any other sin, and I’ve never seen her say anything mean about LGBT people).
truth –
Sure – though that isn’t really what we’ve been talking about. Is a person of conviction somebody who runs around their world or other social groups and condemning folks of their sin, whether or not it was asked for?
And for every speck in somebody else’s eye, how much of the condemnation and focus are you shining on your own issues?
Not very fair of me, some people are great. I mostly just find it weird that people rarely call out the vitriol. They do for many other sins, I don’t understand why homosexual behavior would be different.
“Is a person of conviction somebody who runs around their world or other social groups and condemning folks of their sin, whether or not it was asked for?”
Didn’t you just ask that same question twice in a row. Well, I’ll repeat myself if it helps you to read it twice. But next time just go re-read my answer. I will give you an example of what it means to be a person of conviction. If you worked in an abortion mill (where we can agree that these people fail to acknowledge the barbarity of abortion) then a person of conviction might stand outside your place of work with posters of an aborted baby and ‘condemn’ you with the truth for your behavior.
truth –
I think you’re being intentionally vague, but that’s fine – I’m heading to bed anyway.
Would you be okay if A&E fired Phil if, instead of advancing the views he did, he advanced the view that homosexual behavior was morally superior and married sex was sinful?
Why would they want to fire him for this? It’s still a free country, isn’t it? He might lose ratings as a result and then they could not renew his contract because his ratings fell but why fire him?
I don’t understand why homosexual behavior would be different.
It’s not. But I don’t see arsonists or thieves starting a movement in attempts to normalize their choices of behavior. Or maybe its just I’ve not yet heard of the Zoophiliac Rights Movement yet.
And for every speck in somebody else’s eye, how much of the condemnation and focus are you shining on your own issues?
Back atchya brother.
Prax –
I don’t know – maybe you missed part of the convo, but I made it clear I don’t run around looking for people to judge and condemn, which truth has made it clear that he sees that firmly in his job as a convicted person.
Prax, I said it should be legal. But I have said multiple times that I don’t think it’s particularly kind or right of them to fire him though.
And if acceptance is the barometric for how much vitriol people get for being involved in a sin, why aren’t divorced and remarried people treated like LGBT people? It’s certainly much more common and accepted (I acknowledge it’s not a sin in some circumstances, but it is in most).
We were specifically talking about LGBT though, not other things people might be bullied for.
Oh right, we were. But to be clear, students who steal, abuse their siblings and vandalize cars should not be bullied at school either. School needs to be a safe space for ALL students and students need to be told that
Change is Possible.
Jack, If a Christian has Fear of the Lord (one of the gifts of The Holy Spirit) then testimony that they are living in violation of God’s plan for man could lead them to repentance and salvation.
Prax, would you be comfortable with a public school teacher telling your Carholic child that they should leave Catholicism? I don’t think that’s a appropriate. In the same way I don’t think it’s appropriate for a school teacher to tell a child his or her sexual orientation is wrong.
Behaviors at school, that is a different matter. If people are being overtly sexual I think it’s appropriate to step in.
why aren’t divorced and remarried people treated like LGBT people?
Sometimes they are. I was told by a landlord that he would not rent to me because I was divorced with children. I was also told by a school board member that children should be removed from the homes of divorced people and given to married couples.
Do you think it was okay for you to be treated like that?
Oh and what the landlord did was 100% illegal nowadays, I dunno if it was when it happened. It’s illegal to discriminate against people for family status according to the Federal Fair Housing Act.
If we can start by agreeing to that homosexuality is not normal and it is not natural then there would no reason to debate it any further. – that simply wouldn’t be a factual statement truthseeker. It is such false claims which keep the debate going.
If you believe in Darwinism then you would most certainly maintain that homosexual behavior is unnatural because if it wasn’t then it would lead to the distinction of most species. – just like infertility eh? I guess that’s unnatural too? Not everyone is homosexual.
about as far as I go in the workplace is saying that God created them Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. – yet if we are supposed to believe the ‘from adam’s rib’ story as well as the science that gets used here then logically it must have been adam and steve.
As someone said elsewhere – “The people saying A&E has no right as an employer to control what an employee says (despite a contract) are the same people saying hobby lobby, as an employer, has the right to control an employee’s birth control.”
No, I absolutely don’t think it was okay Jack but I’m also not going to scream and shout that raising children in a divorced family is equal to raising children in a home with a happily married mom and dad. Because it’s not.
I don’t think its okay that anyone be bullied either. There is no need to single out LGBT students over any other students that are bullied.
I’m not saying anything about homosexuality being equal to heterosexuality (except legally, no one should be treated in a discriminatory way legally ever). I just object to the rather heartless commentary towards LGBT people (and anyone who is getting treated poorly). Like I said, I accept it is wrong. I just won’t accept that LGBT people are the most vile, disgusting people on earth, which seems to be an implication. No worse than anyone else. And I don’t accept discrimination.
In the same way I don’t think it’s appropriate for a school teacher to tell a child his or her sexual orientation is wrong.
Is it okay to tell them that it is right? What if they are attracted to animals? Or small children? We don’t want to judge now, do we?
No worse than anyone else.
Then you will have no problem with me telling others that they can choose to change their sexual behaviors just like they can choose not to swear and steal.
You’re kinda hurting my feelings. I don’t think being attracted to the same gender is anywhere near the same as attractions/behaviors that harm non-consenting innocent parties (kids, animals, etc). It’s not a kind way to discuss these things.
Animals and small children can’t give informed consent. Consensual, informed interactions between same-sex attracted people is no different to consensual, informed interactions between hetrosexual people. If you intend to inform people that homosexuality is wrong then you also need to inform them that heterosexuality is wrong.
Then you will have no problem with me telling others that they can choose to change their sexual behaviors just like they can choose not to swear and steal. – sexual orientation is intrinsic, swearing and stealing are not.
If you live in a society where no one swears, you are unlikely to swear. If you live in a society where no one else is gay, you will still be gay if that is your sexual orientation.
Prax do you really think that was a productive thing to say to me? You know my childhood, do you really think it’s fair to compare me to people like that? Do you see what I mean about people treating LGBT people worse?
“sexual orientation is intrinsic, swearing and stealing are not.”
Well she said sexual behaviors, not sexual orientation. Orientation can’t be changed, behaviors are under your control though.
I don’t see why a teacher would be the one to scold someone over their choices unless it actually happens in the school. I don’t think it’s a public school teachers place. Private school, yeah, that’s a different story.
There is no rational or justifiable basis on which consensual, informed homosexual behavior can be condemned ADLP, any more than the orientation can be.
Well I can see where they are coming from with why it’s bad to act out homosexual behavior. I can accept it, it’s wrong to engage in homosexual behavior. I just don’t understand, I was pretty sure that just having the orientation wasn’t sinful. But then I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t be compared to wanting to have sex with children, so maybe it is viewed as a sin as well. Which is sad, it’s not really something that can be changed. I don’t know how any gay or bi person could ever feel safe in a church where they were viewed as badly as a pedo though. :( I’m super depressed.
And I’ve repeatedly said I don’t think public school teachers should be the ones telling kids their orientations are right or wrong, I don’t think it’s their place. So I don’t get why I’m getting accused of thinking it’s okay to tell kids it’s okay to not be heterosexual.
Not all churches behave like that Jack.
My observation is that as homosexuals are achieving equitable levels of safety and rights within society they are tending to live in a manner more akin to heterosexuals. The forming of longer-lasting, monogomous relationships, marriage and children.
In a sex-ed class which teaches facts, it would be less than informative to not tell students that some folk have a different orientation to the majority and that it’s not a flaw, failing or ‘wrong’.
Merry christmas to all :-)
“My observation is that as homosexuals are achieving equitable levels of safety and rights within society they are tending to live in a manner more akin to heterosexuals. The forming of longer-lasting, monogomous relationships, marriage and children.”
It may be true, though I think some statistics point to men attracted to men being more promiscuous than other men. That might just be because women are a less likely to be after casual sex than men are, so two men who like men might just have an easier time finding a casual partner. Anyway, even if they live exactly like heterosexuals I can see that it’s not morally equivalent. I don’t think they deserve to be hated or called names or compared to people who rape kids or have their own children taken away, but it’s fine to think it’s immoral. I do want people treated with kindness no matter your personal opinion on homosexuality.
“In a sex-ed class which teaches facts, it would be less than informative to not tell students that some folk have a different orientation to the majority and that it’s not a flaw, failing or ‘wrong’.”
But see I just don’t think that will work. I really don’t think it’s a public schools place to be teaching value judgments like “this is not wrong” unless it’s in regards to keeping kids from treating other kids badly (like it’s not okay to bully that other kid because they are gay, or overweight, or Christian, or whatever). I just think it infringes a bit on parental rights to be making value judgments about sexual behavior.
I really wish people would stop the pedophilia is equivalent to homo/bisexuality thing though. Gay people don’t hurt non-consenting parties. It may be a sin but it’s not equivalent to child rape, or murder, or bestiality, and such.
I think the only Christian church that doesn’t think homosexuality is wrong is the Unitarians and maybe the Episcopalians. But I think more of them think it’s wrong but accept that the orientation itself is not a sin, and that LGBT people are okay being who they are if they refrain from sinful behaviors. I don’t think those churches compare homosexuality to pedophilia.
Merry Christmas Reality. I hope it’s a good one.
Hi Jack. Wow you guys have been very busy on this thread.
First, I want to say I found Ken’s graphic comments vile and hurtful. I think your examples of how Jesus talked to the Samaritan woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery are very good examples of WWJD. He admonished them for their sinful behavior but he “spoke the truth in love”. The woman at the well became an evangelist who told the entire village to ”come see a man who has told me everything I have ever done” and led many people to Jesus.
Second, I want you to know that I have been continuing to pray for you and your children. Although we have had disagreements in the past I sincerely wish only God’s very best for you and your family. I am praying you will find a “church family” where you will feel welcomed, loved and grow spiritually.
Just watched an awesome sermon on DVD of the testimony of an ex-lesbian whose life was totally transformed by the amazing power of God. She related how she felt she was going to be rejected by “church people” (which she had experienced years before) like the 10 lepers who were outcasts but cried out to Jesus to heal them which he did. Fortunately, 13 years ago she visited a Bible teaching church where she was lovingly taught and discipled. She now has a ministry to LGBT people. I want to see all people hetero, homo, bi, adulterers, Black, white, Asian, Hispanic, etc. find God’s amazing grace and his free gift of salvation from sin. That includes me, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but have everlasting life”. I am so grateful that I am included in John 3:15 as a “whosoever”.
Hi Prolifer L thank you. I am glad you don’t approve of Ken’s comments. I thought they were mean and I don’t think that Jesus would like them either, based on everything that’s in the Bible. The only time I can remember Jesus actually being angry (not hateful, though), was with the money changers in the temple.
Do you believe that just being gay or bisexual, not engaging in sexual behaviors with the opposite sex, is sinful in itself? Just the attraction? And do you think the orientation is as bad as being attracted to children or animals?
Prolifer L I really appreciate you saying something about Ken’s comments. I just didn’t understand why none of his fellows saw any issue with them or tried to understand why they would be hurtful or inappropriate. Thank you very much.
Oh and I meant “not engaging in behaviors with the same sex” in my last comment, not opposite sex.
Jack, there really is no consistency with the law. Our government is run by a bunch of idiots who pass laws that they don’t even read and justify it by complaining about the status quo and claiming that they had to do something. I agree with you that businesses should be able to hire or fire whoever they want and refuse to offer abortificients or any other benefits they wish to provide as part of the compensation and employees can choose to work somewhere else if they don’t like it.
Truthseeker: Now with the ‘progressives’ society can openly progress into depravity.
TS, honestly, that’s pretty hilarious. :p
It wasn’t that long ago that a much larger portion of the US population was really freaking out about interracial dating and marriage. Many of those were white Christians and were more worried about their son or daughter marrying a person of a different race than they were about them marrying another Christian. And this is with there being biblical instruction for staying in the same religion, while the same isn’t true for marrying somebody of a different race or the same one.
There are always going to be some people wringing their hands and bemoaning “the state of things.” That is part and parcel of the human condition. The ancient Egyptians had people who thought the world was going to heck in a handbasket. And time went on, and things changed and it wasn’t the end of the world.
Things are always changing, and one day homosexuality won’t be nearly as big a deal. The prejudices of a relatively few people, back when the Bible was written, has gotten all blown out of proportion, and while it’s taken a long time to mitigate that, it *is* happening, and just as the “interracial debate” has lessened, so too will the deal about homosexuality.
People are born a certain way, and they’re not hurting anybody due to that – it’s amazing that it ever got to be such a big deal in the first place.
“Really? When people like Ken say stuff like “I thank GOD I’m not you” and it goes unchallenged, it’s pretty difficult to see the hate directed at the “lifestyle” instead of people.”
DLPL – Personally I thank God everyday I am me, if that makes any sense. No affirmations needed to be me. Take the same perspective on life and I think you may feel better. No Ken required :'(
Merry Christmas everyone!!!! Hope it brings all that you want and need spiritually and otherwise.
Hi Doug, 9:30am
I remember the story of how my great grandmother went ballistic over her German Lutheran daughter, my grandmother, being in love with and wanting to marry an Italian Catholic!
So my grandmother did as demanded, married a German Lutheran, who loathed their son so much he tried to have him adopted. He then abandoned my grandmother and their two children during the Great Depression. How ironic that if my grandmother had only married the Italian Catholic, who she did after 3 marriages, left by two husbands and widowed by a third, she would have has a considerably happier and more secure life. Interesting that my mother always loved and regarded the Italian Catholic as her “dad”.
How times change!
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all!
Doug, I understand what you are saying about traditions but are you suggesting that homosexuality and abortion are just traditions that will future generations will accept as normal behavior.
Hi Jack. I am not sure about what you are asking. I think that sexual attraction can be quite complicated because we do not live in a vacuum and usually I think attractions are connected to our experiences as a child/teen. The young lady I was talking about that came out of lesbianism had a dysfunctional childhood, abandoned by her father as an infant after her mother died, given to another relative to raise, suffered heterosexual sexual abuse as a pre-teen and then groomed by an adult lesbian as a young teen into her first lesbian sexual relationship. This adult groomed her with gifts, attention, etc. Does this sound like someone vulnerable to same-sex attraction? It does to me. “There but for the grace of God go I”.
I do not think having same-sex attraction is the same thing as acting on it. However, I think Jesus addressed “looking upon a woman (or man) to lust after her (or him)” as committing adultery in our heart which is pretty heavy stuff because men are usually so visual and women are drawn in by their emotional attachments usually. I found it illuminating that this minister said it was a process for God to break chains of hurt, abuse and sexual behaviors in her life. It did not happen overnight ”I think it has to do with spiritual transformation and “renewing of your mind” and also something to do with ” your cannot keep birds from flying over your head but you can stop them from building a nest in your head”. Does that make any sense Jack? God bless you and Merry Christmas to you and yours.
MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!
truth -
I don’t believe abortion and the view by Christians will ever change – but I think it is very possible homosexuality views will change. The Bible was long used to support slavery, and then was used to free slaves. Not long ago, a court ruling essentially cited that if blacks and whites were meant to marry, God wouldn’t have put them on separate continents. All sorts of other state laws were passed by well meaning Christians on the subject.
“There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female for all of you are one in Christ Jesus”.
Will that one day include homosexuals? I don’t know – but I don’t think you do either – and given the past couple hundred years in the Christian church, I think it’s foolish to rule out a scenario fully.
TS: Doug, I understand what you are saying about traditions but are you suggesting that homosexuality and abortion are just traditions that future generations will accept as normal behavior.
Truthseeker, I don’t think abortion is really a tradition; rather, it’s an individual thing that individuals choose or do not choose, the same as for having kids or not. I don’t know how much it will be accepted in the future. In my lifetime, in the US, sentiment has swung toward its legality, and now that has been retraced somewhat. It varies, country to country, and if there is one overall thing that impacts it, I think it will be population pressure.
While I like to argue and debate things, and think that the abortion debate is one of the most meaningful and expressive, I’d be just as happy as you if nobody wanted to have abortions.
I do think that gay people will be increasingly accepted in the future. Gay people being gay is as natural or normal as is straight people being straight. What is changing is the tradition of thought against it. In the US, this has really gained steam the past few years; seems like a “tipping point” has come and gone.
Merry Christmas Mary, Thomas and Pro-Lifer L and everyone else.
Prolifer L I was just wondering if you thought the orientation was a sin as well as the actions. Some people seem to think they are both sins, some think only acting on the orientation is sinful. Thank you for the answer.
“I don’t believe abortion and the view by Christians will ever change – but I think it is very possible homosexuality views will change. The Bible was long used to support slavery, and then was used to free slaves. Not long ago, a court ruling essentially cited that if blacks and whites were meant to marry, God wouldn’t have put them on separate continents. All sorts of other state laws were passed by well meaning Christians on the subject.”
Is there anything in the Bible about interracial marriage though? Or was it more a “curse of Ham” thing where people took their own prejudices and attempted to make the Bible fit them? I am just wondering.
I can’t see homosexual behavior ever seen as completely equivalent to heterosexual behavior, but I can see people stopping with the disgusting allusions like comparing it to pedophilia and such. That stuff has to stop, because it’s just pure bigotry and cruel. I think once people get their head out of the middle ages and accept that they can view it as a sin without treating people like garbage, that a lot of the bigotry will at least subside.
Hi Mary. :)
Interesting that my mother always loved and regarded the Italian Catholic as her “dad”. How times change!
Yes, and that’s a good story of it.
Had lunch today with many members of my wife’s family. My mother-in-law is full-blooded Mohawk indian/Native American. Her sister and a cousin are in town. These are some old indian women. They were born on and grew up on the St. Regis Mohawk Reservation in New York, on the Saint Lawrence River. It’s adjacent to the Akwesasne reserve in Ontario, Canada, and both are considered one community – the Mohawks are allowed to freely go back and forth between Countries
When they were kids, times were hard, it was the Great Depression. The St. Regis settlement itself was founded in the 1700s by Catholic Iroquois from Canada. There was a Catholic Church near the river, and in winter when the river was frozen, people from the Canadian side would walk across to attend services, there being no church in Canada, there.
Some of the people from the Canadian side would bring babies with them, and in the Depression years, would ask the Americans to take care of them, as entire families were starving. Sometimes they would come back later for them, sometimes not. The kids were loved and raised the same, regardless of where they came from. Mostly the kids came from indian parents, but not all, and thus to this day there are some very light-skinned Mohawk indians.
Is there anything in the Bible about interracial marriage though? Or was it more a “curse of Ham” thing where people took their own prejudices and attempted to make the Bible fit them? I am just wondering.
Jack, by no means (heh) a Bible scholar here, but I really don’t think there is any saying “stick to your own race” in the Bible. Considerations of “race” changed a lot over the centuries, as it is. There is stuff about sticking with the same religion, i.e. Christians should marry Christians, non-Christians should marry non-Christians, and don’t mix the two, though.
Yeah I can’t remember anything about interracial marriage in the Bible, I think you’re right. I seem to remember some verses in the Old Testament that talked about not marrying into certain tribes, but I do think that seemed to be about idol worship and such than race.
I wonder if anti-interfaith marriage people compared those attracted to others of another faith to pedophilia?
Doug, I understand what you are saying about society adopting norms of behavior that could include accepting homosexual behavior. Unlike you, I believe that a Godless society could just as easily accept abortion as a norm too.
But I disagree with Ex-RINO about ever finding a Biblical basis for homosexuality. Ex-RINO’s attempt to find a loose-fitting scriptural passage to claim biblical support is heretical or disingenuous at best. Scripture is loaded with God’s plan for the family from Genesis where mankind is is spawned from Adam and Eve thru the Old Testament and New Testaments. His ‘pondering’ homosexuality having a basis in scripture is a dishonest assessment of God’s plan for creation and the family.
Hi Doug,
What an interesting story. Thank you.
About interracial marriage, Race was and is in the eye of the beholder. To my great grandmother a non German was a different race and her daughters, my grandmother and great aunts, never made a secret of their bias against other European ethnics, as well as blacks and Jews. In fact they were more tolerant of blacks and Jews! I heard a story years ago that an American black activist, I believe it was Eldridge Cleaver, went to Africa and was shocked to discover that Africans considered him white! Also, any number of people are in fact Caucasian but since they are so dark skinned, are mistakenly referred to as “non-white”.
I liked how Whoopi Goldberg made it simple. When asked about her race, she replied: Human.
Mary, well yes – this is it – despite different skin colors, nationalities, regions of origin, etc., we’re all one genus and one species, and as I recall, the maximum genetic difference is like 0.0012%.
Seems to me that the individual variation in nature, nurture, culture, etc., would swamp that.
TS: Doug, I understand what you are saying about society adopting norms of behavior that could include accepting homosexual behavior. Unlike you, I believe that a Godless society could just as easily accept abortion as a norm too. But I disagree with Ex-RINO about ever finding a Biblical basis for homosexuality. Ex-RINO’s attempt to find a loose-fitting scriptural passage to claim biblical support is heretical or disingenuous at best. Scripture is loaded with God’s plan for the family from Genesis where mankind is is spawned from Adam and Eve thru the Old Testament and New Testaments. His ‘pondering’ homosexuality having a basis in scripture is a dishonest assessment of God’s plan for creation and the family.
Truthseeker, it’s about accepting people as they really are, when they are not hurting others. Man, I just can’t see the harm in that.
“Godless society.” Well, we’ve got a society where different people believe different things. Nothing new there.
I don’t know what Ex-GOP said. And who really worries about the Old Testament now? Wasn’t there a “New Deal” that wiped much of it out, if one put any stock in it, in the first place? Adam & Eve, Adam & Steve? C’mon, man…. Ain’t any dire shortage of human reproduction at hand.
I don’t think that abortion is going to go away as an issue. I do think that the gay/straight stuff will, to at least a large extent, and those that cling onto some hard-and-fast objections will be relegating themselves to the margins, to being seen as ‘nutjobs,’ and the like.
Doug, I already conceded that a Godless society could easily get so twisted that male on male sex is acceptable. I even went so far as to concede that in a Godless society abortion could be deemed acceptable.
But the other point I was making, and which you have not yet conceded, is that in a society that bases their beliefs on scripture and on the primacy of God homosexual relations will never be acceptable. Why do you suppose you and Ex-RINO have such a hard time conceding on that point?
TS: the other point I was making, and which you have not yet conceded, is that in a society that bases their beliefs on scripture and on the primacy of God homosexual relations will never be acceptable. Why do you suppose you and Ex-RINO have such a hard time conceding on that point?
Truthseeker, in no way is it “hard” to agree that a certain, literal take on some of the things said in the Bible prevent acceptance of Homosexuality. No argument there.
But so what? There are many gay people that believe in God, and what are they to do – think that “I cannot be as I am”? It gets nonsensical right away. Some of the things written in the Bible reflect the fact that the writers of the Bible were misinformed about some things that we know more about now.
I already conceded that a Godless society could easily get so twisted that male on male sex is acceptable. I even went so far as to concede that in a Godless society abortion could be deemed acceptable.
Here too – so what? We don’t have “a Godless society.” We have a society where some people believe certain things, and some do not, and the rest believe all the varying degrees in-between.
Merry Christmas to ALL!
2014 can be the year we can choose to change any negative or disordered thoughts, behaviors and/or addictions! Christ promises to help if we ask!
The worst persecution we get for our faith here in the US is losing our jobs. Dozens were killed and maimed in car bombs in Baghdad today at Christmas celebrations. Let us remember them today and pray that God comforts those killed and persecuted this day because of their faith.
Hi Jack I believe there is a story of a bi-racial marriage and racial prejudice against the wife of Moses by Aaron and Miriam because his wife was an Ethopian woman. (this seemed to be their only complaint against her). Read Numbers 12. This made God angry against them because Moses was the most meek man on the earth so God chastised them by Miriam coming down with leprosy. Moses pleaded for God to heal her so after 7 days Miriam was healed and could be brought back into the camp. There is indeed nothing new under the sun. There have been Orthodox Ethiopian Jews for centuries from what I understand someone with more Biblical knowledge may be able to explain more about this. Hope this helps.
“Merry Christmas Mary, Thomas and Pro-Lifer L and everyone else. ”
Thank you Jack. As of this morning I am recovering from an eggnog overdose :)
Hope yours is blessed but we have until January 6 to celebrate.
Good news Jack, I didn’t have turkey! I had corned beef instead ;-)
and too much pudding….
Hope yours was good.
in a society that bases their beliefs on scripture and on the primacy of God homosexual relations will never be acceptable. – do you mean a theocracy?
At what point does a society become ‘godless’? When belief and adherence falls below 50%? 80%? Or if it drops below 100%?
If you don’t find it acceptable, don’t do it. Just leave others be.
2014 can be the year we can choose to change any negative or disordered thoughts, behaviors and/or addictions! – why 2014? Can’t it be done any time? Changing negative or disordered thoughts is always a positive thing to do. The same goes for behaviors and addictions. Some things we can’t change though. We can’t change the color of our hair – although we can mask it with dye. We can’t change the color of our eyes – although they too can now be masked, with colored contact lenses. And we can’t change our sexual orientation – although some mask it, for a while.
The worst persecution we get for our faith here in the US is losing our jobs. – really? How does that happen?
Prolifer L thank you. I more meant that I can’t remember anything in the Bible saying that interracial marriages were wrong, even if some people decided to treat people in interracial marriages badly.
Thomas I had an okay Christmas, I always miss my kids on Christmas though. Why do you celebrate Christmas until January 6?
Lol Reality so you murdered a cow instead of a turkey? No better in my opinion. ;)
“Some things we can’t change though. We can’t change the color of our hair – although we can mask it with dye. We can’t change the color of our eyes – although they too can now be masked, with colored contact lenses. And we can’t change our sexual orientation – although some mask it, for a while. ”
True enough. I have read several books by gay Christians who have chosen to remain celibate who are honest with the fact they are still gay, even if they choose to never express their orientation with action. It’s not something everyone can change no matter how many times “loving” people wanna compare you to pedophiles and such. Behaviors are under your control, attractions are not.
Tut tut ADLP, you know that the legal killing of animals for food is not murder. I only bought about a two pound chunk of the cow so a few others must have been complicit.
Some gay chaps have even married women and had children. Mostly they either still conduct a bit of ‘closet work’ on the side or they resume their true nature once the kids are grown and gone. But yes, some simply remain celibate.
Well I consider you all complicit in the unjustified killing (not murder, fine fine) of helpless animals! ;)
“Some gay chaps have even married women and had children. Mostly they either still conduct a bit of ‘closet work’ on the side or they resume their true nature once the kids are grown and gone. But yes, some simply remain celibate. ”
Where do you get your information, Brokeback Mountain?? Lol. Sure, some gay men have married women and been unfaithful. I do think it’s possible to refrain from sex if you think it’s immoral though, and plenty of exclusively gay men have done so. Bisexual men have it quite a bit easier though, I believe.
And of course there are people who don’t care if you engage in behaviors or not, your still a bad person if you can’t “fix” your orientation (seriously not letting that one go, it’s really rude).
Maybe this particular cow was a bully? :-)
I said ‘some’, not ‘all’ or ‘many’. I have read tales from and of those who have been part of the ‘pray away the gay’ movement and have also met such people socially and in the workplace. It is surprising how many older gays I’ve met who tried to live a straight life, mainly due to family and societal pressures. As a more rational approach to homosexuality has grown, such instances lessen.
Very rude.
More rational? That’s rich. When society can claim that homosexual behavior is as rational as heterosexual behavior you will know the liberals are in charge.
pfox.org
Change is possible.
To claim ex-gays are liars is very intolerant.
Yes, a more rational society is a more rich society. When society can claim that homosexual behavior is as rational, for homosexuals, as heterosexual behavior is for heterosexuals, then you will know that rationality is in charge.
Yes Prax, and comparing people with same sex attractions to people who wanna have sex with kids is the epitome of love.
Maybe those people are being truthful about their lack of current same sex attractions. That’s fine, if they were able to change that’s cool. The fact remains that there are plenty of Christians who are choosing to live celibate who admit they still have same sex attractions. And they aren’t doing anything wrong, you can’t always control your appetites. You can control your behavior.
Change is possible. – for some things yes, for other things no. Let me know when you can change your actual eye color.
To claim ex-gays are liars is very intolerant. – there is no such thing as an ex-gay. There are celibate gays, suppressed gays, pretending-otherwise gays, maybe even fooling-themselves gays. But no ex-gays.
And you speak of gays and tolerance, how ironic.
You even had a pope who admitted some people are always going to be orientated towards homosexuality, though they should never express it with action. The only thing this “you can totally change, in every case!” thing does is cause shame and self-hatred. Maybe some people can rid themselves of same sex attractions, others cannot. Unless you wanna call a bunch of celibate gay Christians liars Prax.
Here we have a heterosexual who calls himself Reality speaking as an authoritiy for homosexuals. Emphatically stating there is no such thing as ex-gay. Reality, how do you know? Was this a clinical study or have you just spoken personally with every homosexual that ever lived?
Seriously, I’m tired of this garbage, even on your own site it admits that “reparative” therapy doesn’t work for nearly everybody, not even the majority. Some people have same sex attractions that are here to stay. Doesn’t mean they have to act on them, but the attractions are not going anywhere, there are mountains of evidence that is true for many people. It’s truly bigoted and unloving and definitely not Christ-like to compare these people to those attracted to children (especially when you’re talking to someone you know has same sex attractions you know was abused as a child, then you’re just being cruel), or act like they are sinning for not being straight when they aren’t involved in homosexual behavior (even your church doesn’t teach that Prax). You make it impossible and it’s no wonder more LGBT people don’t listen.
You probably won’t apologize Prax, because I doubt you think you’ve done anything wrong. I wish you would though, your words are genuinely hurtful.
Get a backbone, Jack. Enough already.
Yes, Prax, you treating other people badly is everyone else’s problem. How self aware of you.
I’m not speaking as an authority for homosexuals truthseeker. I’m speaking of the facts.
How do I know there is no such thing as an ex-gay? Science. Medical science.
Medical and clinical studies undertaken by the relevant experts.
Do you know any ex-redheads?
Reality is it possible to be born bi-sexual and then lose attraction to one sex or the other?
Refusing to meekly accept unjustifiable vitriol doesn’t indicate a lack of backbone, it indicates a lack of stupidity.
A lot of big words in a beautifully liberal mind-bending non-answer there Reality.
I’m not going to shut up unless the hatred stops. As long as people thing they can say awful or untrue things, I’ll correct them. If it makes you feel uncomfortable Praxedes, you might want to ask yourself why. Maybe because you’re going against your own church doctrine? Maybe because I’m right, and you’re acting with a lack of love and you know it? Think about it.
I’m not fully au fait with the science regarding bisexuality truthseeker. From the bits and pieces I have come across it seems some of it is considered behavioral, as in people being so randy they’ll do anything – so some of those folk may; whilst some is a neurological state somewhere between heterosexual and homosexual – so no.
You considered those ‘big words’? Seriously? And what did you not understand about the answer?
“From the bits and pieces I have come across it seems some of it is considered behavioral, as in people being so randy they’ll do anything”
How very unscientific of you. Unless ‘randy’ is some kind of new quantum measurement I am unaware. Do closet bi-sexuals have fewer randy’s then open bisexuals?
‘unscientific’? That’s funny coming from you. It’s what the science says. Some people are simply focussed on attaining pleasure no matter the source. Very small group mind you.
Do closet bi-sexuals have fewer randy’s then open bisexuals? – from what the science tells us, quite probably.
Now, which ‘big words’ did you need help with?
How about you answer my question – know any ex-redheads?
Yes, they started turning grey in the mid thirties.
“Do closet bi-sexuals have fewer randy’s then open bisexuals?” – from what the science tells us, quite probably.
How do they measure the level of ‘randys’ in a person?
For the record, as explained to me from Paladin and read from other sources, the Catholic Church says same sex attractions in themselves are not sins. A sin has to be willed, and attractions are involuntary no matter their source. It’s what you do with the attractions that makes it a sin or not, not their existence. If you can’t rid yourself of same sex attractions, it doesn’t mean you are sinning by having them or that you are a bad person or a bad Christian. All it means is you have a certain propensity that you can’t control, but you can control your behavior. You’re not worse than anyone else and you don’t deserve the vitriol.
Yes, they started turning grey in the mid thirties. – that’s a bit unusual. Most redheads turn grey later but faster than other colors. All hair colors turn grey. Do you know any redheads who have turned brunette? Any brunettes who have turned red? How about blondes to black-haired? You know, an intrinsic change.
How do they measure the level of ‘randys’ in a person? – I’ll let you do your own homework on that one. Let me know if any of the words are too big for you ;-)
At times ADLP, it seems like you are being used as a surrogate voodoo doll by some folk.
“Surrogate voodoo doll”?
Yeah, it’s as if they can’t pin their enmity or bitterness or whatever it is on the real source.
Meh, I think it’s more that certain people here are not fond of my personality, as well as resenting that I don’t agree with them on every single viewpoint. Like I said, it’s not enough to believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, you also have to agree with all the unfair comparisons and untruths.
“How do they measure the level of ‘randys’ in a person?” – I’ll let you do your own homework on that one. Let me know if any of the words are too big for you
Reality, You introduced me to the whole idea of bisexuals being ‘randy’. Then you said that scientifically bisexuals who act out openly have more randy’s then closet bisexuals. I think you are the only one who has the evidence of this since nobody else seems to know of these clinical studies and scientific facts. We will need you to reference them for us or apologize to Randy’s all over the world,
Yep, it’s that whole tolerance thing Jack.
What you need to know truthseeker, is that it’s not as simple as how many randy’s, it’s also the size of the randy’s. Does that help?
I think you are the only one who has the evidence of this since nobody else seems to know of these clinical studies and scientific facts. – glad to be of assistance.
We will need you to reference them for us or apologize to Randy’s all over the world, – you seem somewhat confused.
Found any examples of peoples hair color changing yet?
I definitely don’t think all bisexuals are just “randier” than other people. In my anecdotal experience everyone I’ve met who had attractions to both genders seemed to have been sexually abused as a child, so there might be some rewiring there. Or it might just be a wiring at birth thing.
Don’t hate me because I believe exgays exist as surely as exsmokers exist.
Tolerance for ALL.
I don’t hate you Prax. You appear to hate me though. I actually agree there are plenty of people who choose to not act out their homosexual inclinations, and some of those May be able to suppress them entirely. I’m not disagreeing with that. I’m upset with you because you decide to compare homosexual urges to pedophilia when you had to know how that comes across. You’re passive aggressive for no reason at all, you keep accusing me of agreeing with things I don’t. And you seem to think there’s something sinful about simply being gay or bi when there isn’t. Even according to your own church,
I said ‘some’ Jack. As I stated when truthseeker first sought to introduce bisexuality as a distraction, I’m not au fait with all the science.
I don’t think anyones ‘hates’ you for being wrong Praxedes. Why do you attack others and then claim “poor me”?
I’d tolerate a 14 year old who still believed in the tooth fairy. I would try to enlighten them though.
Hi Jack. I heard 2 Roman Catholic priest on a TV show express what you wrote at 11:26pm, that “same-sex attraction” in itself is not sinful but acting on the attractions are.
There is something I heard from a young man who is an ex-homosexual (I am paraphrasing but it went something like) ”I do not know if I will ever be totally rid of all same-sex attraction but God has not called me to himself to be a heterosexual, he has called me to be holy by living for Him”.
I have heard the testimony of 2 men and 1 woman who came out of the lifestyle who say they no longer have same-sex attractions and the 2 men are now married. People call them liars because it does not fit the “gay agenda”. The ex-lesbian I mentioned earlier stated “why is it always considered possible for people to leave heterosexuality to become a homosexual but it is NEVER possible for a homosexual to become a heterosexual. People are lauded for leaving drug addiction, alcoholism, prostitution, but homosexual activists never concede that people can leave homosexuality we don’t fit their political agenda. I have been delivered for 13 years and they are still calling me a liar, saying that I never was a lesbian.”
Jack I am continuing to pray for you and your family. Take care. I hope the new year will bring you closer to the Lord who loves you so very much.
I heard from a young man who is an ex-homosexual (I am paraphrasing but it went something like) ”I do not know if I will ever be totally rid of all same-sex attraction – he’s not really an ex-homosexual then is he. He may be non-practicing.
why is it always considered possible for people to leave heterosexuality to become a homosexual but it is NEVER possible for a homosexual to become a heterosexual. – who says it’s possible to leave heterosexuality to become a homosexual?? Where is this ‘always’ considered possible?
People are lauded for leaving drug addiction, alcoholism, prostitution, but homosexual activists never concede that people can leave homosexuality we don’t fit their political agenda. – they can ‘leave’ homosexuality behaviorally but their sexual orientation hasn’t changed.
I have been delivered for 13 years and they are still calling me a liar, saying that I never was a lesbian. – ‘delivered’? I wouldn’t call her a liar as such but either she wasn’t then or she’s suppressing now.
“I’m upset with you because you decide to compare homosexual urges to pedophilia when you had to know how that comes across.”
Jack, I agree that pedophilia is not just a homosexual disorder. But both pedophilia and homosexuality are sexual disorders. That is where the association comes from.
I think it is also fair to say that many homosexuals lead a ‘closeted’ lifestyle which is another association that would lead to general lack of trust of a person which would be extended to not trusting them being around children.
I don’t care, there’s zero reason to bring up pedophilia if you actually cared about getting your points across. Being attracted to consenting adults of the same sex is much different from having nonconsensual sexual urges.
And there’s no reason to distrust gays in general, even around kids. Should be treated the same as any other person, don’t let people around your kids without using discernment. The worst child abuser I’ve ever known was married to a woman, someone’s claimed sexual orientation has nothing to do with whether they’ll abuse children.
You guys aren’t actually ever going to stop, are you? Even if you know you hurt people, you know that you turn people off your message, you think youre righteous and that means you can make any comparisons you want and assumptions about people.
Not at all. I know the worst abusers can be heterosexual perverts and I think it would be stupid to deny that. But it would also be stupid to trust people, heterosexual or homosexual, who lead secret lives that they keep from people.
Jack, it sounds like you have disgust and contempt for pedophiles. Don’t you love them?
Praxedes, I love them so much that I would volunteer to help them stop abusing.
Even if it meant pounding them into the pavement. But I wouldn’t do that to somebody just for being homosexual. To be fair, I think that is the point Deluded Lib is making.
“Even if it meant pounding them into the pavement. But I wouldn’t do that to somebody just for being homosexual. To be fair, I think that is the point Deluded Lib is making. ”
Of course it’s the point I’m making. Praxedes wants to draw the faulty comparisons between raping/wanting to rape a child and engaging in/desiring consensual sex. There’s no comparison, it’s a mean thing to say, and she knows it.
Praxedes I’ve never claimed to love pedophiles like you claim to “love” non-heterosexuals.
There are differences and you clearly brought one of them to the forefront through your discussion. Exactly what post (date and time) did Praxedes say homosexuals are all pedophiles.
I didn’t say she said they were all pedophiles.
I didn’t say any homosexuals were pedophiles. I was talking about sexual sins. I didn’t know that we were ranking sins in the order of bad to worst. Where does pornography rank in the order?
Once again, you’re putting words in my mouth and reading things into statements, Jack, and it gets tiring. Talk about passive/aggressive.
Here is the Confiteor prayer that Catholics say during Mass that you may be interested in. It points out that thoughts can indeed be sins:
“I confess to almighty God and to you , my brothers and sisters, that I greatly sinned in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I asked blessed Mary, ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.”
Jack, if some conversations make you uncomfortable, you do know you have a right to avoid the thread, right?
Are you objecting to the assertion that there is a greater chance for pedophilia among homosexuals than there is among heterosexuals? What is NAMBLA all about? Do homosexuals renounce NAMBLA as an organization and call them sick disordered people?
But both pedophilia and homosexuality are sexual disorders. That is where the association comes from. – the claim that homosexuality is a sexual disorder is baseless, unscientific and irrational. This leads homophobes and anti-gay bigots to attempt to create an association between homosexuality and non-consensual, criminal acts such as pedophilia.
I think it is also fair to say that many homosexuals lead a ‘closeted’ lifestyle which is another association that would lead to general lack of trust of a person which would be extended to not trusting them being around children. – it’s a shame, isn’t it, that some are closeted because they have a general lack of trust of certain people and groups. I wouldn’t say ‘many’ feel such need nowadays since society is becoming more rational about it.
I didn’t say any homosexuals were pedophiles. – but you were equating homosexuality with pedophilia. And there are no grounds on which such can justifiably be done.
Are you objecting to the assertion that there is a greater chance for pedophilia among homosexuals than there is among heterosexuals? – I certainly am. Can you demonstrate anything unbiased and factual to support such a claim?
Do homosexuals renounce NAMBLA as an organization and call them sick disordered people? – all the ones I know do. Unlike certain people who defend, hide, relocate and cover-up for some pedophiles.
“Do homosexuals renounce NAMBLA as an organization and call them sick disordered people? – all the ones I know do.
Good to know Reality. Cause historically the two have had close ties. Do the ones you know also renounce Planned Parenthood’s efforts to deny Parental Notification of Minors who get pregnant and go to Planned Parenthood for an abortion?
Cause historically the two have had close ties. – prove it.
Do the ones you know also renounce Planned Parenthood’s efforts to deny Parental Notification of Minors who get pregnant and go to Planned Parenthood for an abortion? – it is not something which has been discussed. Abortion isn’t much of a priority for homosexuals.
Why is it that those who display the most anti-homosexual thinking and behavior seem to think that it’s so alluring it can be taught or caught? That people will think “well that might be worth a try”? Reflecting?
“it is not something which has been discussed. Abortion isn’t much of a priority for homosexuals.”
Why would they care about boys getting raped by homosexual men but not put any priority on notifying the legal guardians of unemancipated minor girls who get raped by men?
“Cause historically the two have had close ties. – prove it.”
Well there is this group that marched in the 2010 Gay Pride parade in London.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Faeries
Maybe because of the facile and unjust association of homosexuality with pedophilia by certain elements of society? It’s called self-preservation. Perhaps if they didn’t need to focus on protecting themselves against homophobes and anti-gay bigots they may be able to direct their efforts elsewhere. And as I said, abortion isn’t a big ticket item for homosexuals. You didn’t say anything about female minors being “raped by men”, you only spoke of pregnant minors seeking abortions. If rape has taken place they would support action being taken the same as in the case of pedophilia.
Mildly interesting link, but where’s the close tie to NAMBLA?
“If rape has taken place they would support action being taken the same as in the case of pedophilia.”
By law unemancipated minors do not have the capacity to consent to sex therefore it is rape any time they get pregnant. Maybe you should be their spokesperson cause the LGBT community hasn’t voiced much opposition to Planned Parenthood that I am aware of. In fact they seem to be bedfellows. You are saying that they would renounce Planned Parenthood’s attempts to keep this information out of the hands of legal guardians but can you show me even one time that and gay or lesbian organization has actually come out against Planned Parenthood on anything?
“Mildly interesting link, but where’s the close tie to NAMBLA?”
The founder of that organization has always been a staunch supporter of NAMBLA. Do just a little research. People like you acting as spokesperson for homosexuals and denying the historical ties to NAMBLA does not help the LGBT cause; it hurts it.
I’m finding your use of the term ‘unemancipated minors’ to be a little too broad. You might want to be a bit more specific about what you are actually referring to.
Maybe you should be their spokesperson cause the LGBT community hasn’t voiced much opposition to Planned Parenthood that I am aware of. – why would they need to? Or want to?
In fact they seem to be bedfellows. – oh yes, and on what do you base this claim?
You are saying that they would renounce Planned Parenthood’s attempts to keep this information out of the hands of legal guardians but can you show me even one time that and gay or lesbian organization has actually come out against Planned Parenthood on anything? – are you saying that there are no gay anti-choicers?
The founder of that organization has always been a staunch supporter of NAMBLA. – prove it.
Do just a little research. – if you’re making the accusation that would be your job. Why did you provide a link which demonstrated exactly zero of what you provided it as evidence of?
People like you acting as spokesperson for homosexuals and denying the historical ties to NAMBLA does not help the LGBT cause; it hurts it. – no, false accusations of such ties by people such as yourself is what harms the LGBT cause.
http://www.plagal.org/
http://www.lifenews.com/2013/01/24/gay-pro-life-advocates-to-join-march-for-life-against-abortion/
“The founder of that organization has always been a staunch supporter of NAMBLA. – prove it.”
Harry Hay was the founder of that organization and a leader of the LGBT rights movement and he supported the inclusion of NAMBLA in gay-pride events. Your obtuse denial is the worst thing a supporter of homosexuals could do.
You claimed that the homosexual community and NAMBLA have historically had close ties. All you have come up with is the name of one long-dead radical activist who gave them some public support. ‘staunch supporter’ is stretching it a bit. You’ve delivered nothing which amounts to ‘historically close ties’.
Before you continue with your persistent yet baseless campaign to align homosexuality with pedophilia I suggest you rethink your strategy. Or do you not think that men abuse girls? Or women boys? Why do we keep being told of underage girls turning up at abortion clinics if it’s only a case of homosexuality = pedophilia? Associating homosexuality with pedophilia necessitates associating heterosexuality with pedophilia as well.
Good night :-)
Reality, isn’t it wonderful that there are pro-life homosexuals? I am glad you posted the truth. You previous comments that abortion wasn’t a priority or concern for homosexuals was doing them a disservice by bringing them down to your level of morality.
Time to stop feeding the troll.
Deluded Lib,
Almost all sex crimes on children are committed by men. One third of all sex crimes on children are committed on boys. The vast majority of these man on boy crimes are committed by people who are currently in heterosexual relationships and do not identify themselves are homosexual.
What this tells me. The majority of pedophiles are bisexual male deviants who can get opportunities to molest boys by keeping their homosexuality in the closet and living an open profile as a heterosexual.
Males have a much higher incidence of sexually deviant behavior that fits their reputation as being more aggressive sexually. Your kid is less likely to be physically molested by your lesbian aunt then your heterosexual uncle.
“You previous comments that abortion wasn’t a priority or concern for homosexuals was doing them a disservice by bringing them down to your level of morality. ”
YOU were the one who said that first, truthseeker. You were the one who decided to degrade LGBT people by pretending none of us ever speak out about abortion or PP, or that the unfortunately pro-choice large LGBT organizations speak for everyone. Reality rightly pointed out PLAGAL and other proof that there are plenty of pro-life LGBT people. It’s exceedingly depressing when a pro-abort acknowledges that non-heterosexuals aren’t a monolithic group when “allies” in the pro-life movement don’t bother to acknowledge it unless forced to.
You’re also the one who pretends that being attracted to pre-pubescent and pubescent children is the same thing as being attracted to adult men, which is seriously disgusting and makes me wonder about you. Men who marry women to get access to little boys to abuse are not “bisexuals”, they are pedophiles who have a male gender preference. It’s not the same thing as being attracted to adult men. A closeted gay or bisexual man who lacks the moral fiber to refrain from cheating would find a consenting adult man to have sex with, not a little boy. Not remotely the same thing. And btw a lot of those creeps who have relationships with women aren’t actually attracted to adult women at all, a lot of them are like my dad and have zero interest in women, and were just interested in getting access to male (or female, as the case may be) children. You can’t compare people who abuse children to those who want consenting relationships with other adults of whatever gender. Men who like adult women, the vast majority would never touch a little girl. Same for gay and bisexual men, most would never go near a little boy.
“What is NAMBLA all about? Do homosexuals renounce NAMBLA as an organization and call them sick disordered people?”
Of course most LGBT people renounce NAMBLA and think they are sick. It’s only right wingers and a few extreme lefties who try to conflate NAMBLA members with the average gay person.
“I didn’t say any homosexuals were pedophiles. I was talking about sexual sins. I didn’t know that we were ranking sins in the order of bad to worst. Where does pornography rank in the order?”
Don’t be disingenuous. Pedophilia is almost always only brought up when discussing homosexuality when people are discussing sexual sins. Almost exclusively. It’s not brought up when discussing premarital straight sex, contraception, etc etc etc. I honestly wouldn’t have cared if you had apologized for bringing it up and found a different analogy, but instead you just ignore it and double down.
“Once again, you’re putting words in my mouth and reading things into statements, Jack, and it gets tiring. Talk about passive/aggressive.”
I treat you quite a bit kinder than you treat me, in general. Considering our conversations here went:
Jack: I don’t think teachers should be teaching the kids in public school about homosexuality, whether they agree or not.
Prax: Why do you think people should be allowed to teach kids that homosexuality is okay?
Jack: …. I don’t, I literally just said I don’t agree with that.
[snip fifteen comments of the same]
Prax: So I should have to tell them that their orientation is okay? What if they were pedos???
That’s passive/aggressive. You either have reading comprehension problems or you just want to ignore what I say, and answer what you think I said.
“It points out that thoughts can indeed be sins:”
Of course thoughts can be sins, who denied that? What cannot be sinful is what is unwilled. Unbidden attraction is not willed. Being attracted to the same gender is not a sin even if it’s disordered. It is what you do that is or is not a sin. People cause tons of damage if they act like simply existing is sinful. I would tell any LGBT kid that you aren’t bad for having attractions you can’t control, because that is true. I would tell them they have control over their behavior, that is also true.
“Jack, if some conversations make you uncomfortable, you do know you have a right to avoid the thread, right? ”
I might have the right but I don’t have the freedom. I simply cannot let you all treat people like this and pass on damaging untruths as truth. You all have no idea, and don’t seem to care one way or the other, what kind of damage you do people. I’m pretty much morally obligated to say something.
Wow Jack. You really should work on that chip on your shoulder. I better say things the way you want me to or I’m some ogre. We’ve been down this road before and I’m done here. Have fun trying to control other’s conversations. Ugh. Poor Jack.
All my problem, never yours. Got it.
Deluded Lib,Why would trust people who live “closeted” lifestyles just cause they are homosexual? If they can keep something like that from you then why do you trust them at all?
Deluded Lib, Any idea what percentage of the homosexual population supports PLAGAL?
“It’s exceedingly depressing when a pro-abort acknowledges that non-heterosexuals aren’t a monolithic group when “allies” in the pro-life movement don’t bother to acknowledge it unless forced to.”
Deluded Lib. I wasn’t forced to. I said that the LGBT community as a whole does not speak out much against Planned Parenthood; and I stand by that statement. You on the other hand choose to attack me and make excuses for ‘Reality’ who said several times that abortion is not a priority or a big concern to homosexuals. I am very clear that IMO supporting the killing of children in the womb is a graver moral depravity then homosexuality. I don’t understand why anybody would support the people who kill children in the womb just because the people that kill them support their feelings about sexual preference. IMHO, on the greatest injustices list, sexual preference or gratification of any kind is like light years below killing babies in their mother’s womb.
Deluded Lib, if you can drop the drama and have an honest dialogue then answer the last questions I posed at 4:32 and 4:35.
Reality, isn’t it wonderful that there are pro-life homosexuals? – not particularly. I would think they would be more supportive of womens freedoms given their own struggles.
I am glad you posted the truth. – someone has to :-)
You previous comments that abortion wasn’t a priority or concern for homosexuals was doing them a disservice by bringing them down to your level of morality. – no, the disservice is in your repeated attempts to align them with pedophilia.
Almost all sex crimes on children are committed by men.
One third of all sex crimes on children are committed on boys.
The vast majority of these man on boy crimes are committed by people who are currently in heterosexual relationships and do not identify themselves are homosexual.
What this tells me. The majority of pedophiles are bisexual male deviants who can get opportunities to molest boys by keeping their homosexuality in the closet and living an open profile as a heterosexual. – you might want to revisit your math here for a start. And rather than being ‘bisexual male deviants’ they are ‘sexual deviants who don’t have a gender preference’.
Your kid is less likely to be physically molested by your lesbian aunt then your heterosexual uncle. – so you do recognise that same-sex attracted folk are less likely to commit pedophilia.
You really should work on that chip on your shoulder. – pointing out and protesting being misrepresented and maligned does not amount to a chip on the shoulder.
I better say things the way you want me to or I’m some ogre. We’ve been down this road before and I’m done here. – ah, still with the attacks followed by a claim of “poor me”.
Have fun trying to control other’s conversations. – that’s almost funny given your propensity to present what people haven’t said and claim they have.
Ugh. Poor Jack. – I don’t think Jack’s the poor one.
Why would trust people who live “closeted” lifestyles just cause they are homosexual? If they can keep something like that from you then why do you trust them at all? – it’s people like you they keep it from. Hardly surprising. People doing what they need to do to protect themselves against certain elements isn’t tantamount to them being any sort of threat or risk to others.
“Why would trust people who live “closeted” lifestyles just cause they are homosexual? If they can keep something like that from you then why do you trust them at all? ”
I’m quite curious while I’m envisioning how you came to this question. Do you ask all married men if they have any same sex attractions, and if you find out later they didn’t tell you do you get all offended or something? I don’t consider everyone’s struggles and issues my business in every case. Some married people struggle with gambling for example, it’s between the husband and wife how they deal with it and I don’t consider them “closeted” for not sharing their issues with me. A close friend, I would feel rather hurt if he didn’t share he was having a serious issue like that, but I would try to find out why he didn’t feel safe sharing with me. Weirdest question ever. And it also has nothing to do with pedophilia.
“Deluded Lib, Any idea what percentage of the homosexual population supports PLAGAL? ”
No clue! Have any idea how many heterosexual women get abortions? Hint: it’s somewhere around 25-35% by most estimates, and obviously there is a heterosexual man involved in the abortion at some point (either agreeing to it, abandoning her, coercing her, or the somewhat rarer dudes who aren’t cool with it).
“I am very clear that IMO supporting the killing of children in the womb is a graver moral depravity then homosexuality. I don’t understand why anybody would support the people who kill children in the womb just because the people that kill them support their feelings about sexual preference. IMHO, on the greatest injustices list, sexual preference or gratification of any kind is like light years below killing babies in their mother’s womb.”
Well I consider rape of children equal to abortion on the tragedy scale, personally, but it weirds me out to compare tragedies like that so I usually don’t think about it. Obviously I think killing babies is worse than treating LGBT people poorly. It doesn’t change human nature though. Humans are not likely to join groups or listen to arguments coming from people who treat them badly or degrade them. You can’t change that fact of human nature, so I would suggest you change your words and try to use facts once in a great while.
Conservatives have a huge, huge, share of the blame for the alienation of the LGBT community from the pro-life movement. You guys will never admit it, and you’ll never acknowledge that the way you treat and talk to people needs to change, but it’s the truth. People aren’t going to even give pro-life arguments (which admittedly are hard to get through to people raised in pro-choice rhetoric, especially when it comes to early term pregnancies) a second glance if they see themselves being compared to pedophiles, or called all kinds of disgusting names. Commenters just on this website have ran off LGBT pro-lifers a few times in my memories, which of course exactly zero people involved in the bigotry have ever taken some time for introspection and thought “wait, maybe the way I talk to this segment of people is horrendous and is hurting our movement?!”. Too much to ask I guess.
And this isn’t just people who are themselves LGBT this alienates, btw. This also alienates everyone who supports them, which is at least half the country. That’s a whole lot of people who can’t hear our message through “homos [insert false statement/slur/comparison]” here, among other things.
One of these days someone should explain to me why y’all dislike gay and bisexual men so much more than you dislike lesbian and bisexual women. I have a suspicion that it has to do with your personal disgust levels for certain behaviors.
“not particularly. I would think they would be more supportive of womens freedoms given their own struggles.”
Since pro-choicers seem to see “women’s freedom” as synonymous with “abortion rights” I get why that would confuse you. Plenty of LGBT people who are pro-life are also women btw. Anyway, it’s about the baby who is being deprived of human rights, like LGBT people were and are for centuries.
It probably does have something to do with their personal disgust for certain behaviors Jack. Funny thing is, some heterosexuals practice exactly the same behaviors.
Eating meat is far less justifiable and intrinsic than being gay is.
Perhaps you would be justified in seeing what deviant behaviors you can align us carnivores with ;-)
“It probably does have something to do with their personal disgust for certain behaviors Jack. Funny thing is, some heterosexuals practice exactly the same behaviors.”
Yeah… I find it particularly amusing when straight guys try to puzzle out why men are attracted to other men and conclude that they should just choose otherwise. Um, you’re not gonna get it Phil. Just stop, you’re being gross and silly.
“Eating meat is far less justifiable and intrinsic than being gay is. Perhaps you would be justified in seeing what deviant behaviors you can align us carnivores with”
Oh my goodness, you’ve never seen how out there some of the animal rights people get. They call people who drink cow’s milk (including me, because I’m vegetarian not a vegan) “profiting from rape”, because they consider milking cows rape, they think you are all equivalent to a million Hitlers, blah blah blah. They would be laughable if there weren’t that worrisome extremist element in the Animal Rights Movement that actually does cause serious harm on occasion.
Not confused at all Jack. It’s about the restricting of peoples freedom, liberty and rights by the usual suspects. It happens to LGBT folk and to heterosexual women.
G’night Jack.
Hi Jack, I know I said I was done here and so I apologize for commenting once again. I was going to catch you on a different thread but since those who agree with you on topics of homosexuality seem to hang here, I will make my point here instead of there. Plus I didn’t think it appropriate to bring these discussions here into an unrelated thread.
After reflection, I have decided to no longer discuss issues surrounding homosexuality with you. My words are misconstrued by you and others and attempts are made by you to make me into someone I am not. I walk on glass fearful that I may say something to hurt your feelings and this is not right. I can no longer enable you to attempt to portray me as someone I am not and read into and sabotage my comments over and over. I will no longer tolerate you doing so. Any attempts by you to bring me into a conversation with you on these topics will be ignored.
I will, however, be more than willing to discuss issues surrounding the prolife movement with you. If this is not something you wish, that is cool by me too. Please know that I am so happy you are a part of the prolife generation! Keep up the good work!
Best wishes to you and your family for a safe and happy 2014!
My observation and conclusion is that the second paragraph above is a complete inversion of the real situation. Good grief.
“After reflection, I have decided to no longer discuss issues surrounding homosexuality with you. My words are misconstrued by you and others and attempts are made by you to make me into someone I am not. I walk on glass fearful that I may say something to hurt your feelings and this is not right. I can no longer enable you to attempt to portray me as someone I am not and read into and sabotage my comments over and over. I will no longer tolerate you doing so. Any attempts by you to bring me into a conversation with you on these topics will be ignored.”
I could write almost the exact same paragraph about how you treat me in these conversations and it would be as accurate in my eyes as I am sure your’s is in your eyes. Not important though. I’m learning there is no way to make people be kind and fair to you if they can’t even see what they are doing.
And of course we can converse on other topics. I do not dislike you. We obviously can’t view each other accurately on this particular topic.
I think you are being exceedingly generous ADLP.
Jack, I don’t agree with everything you have posted on this thread but your post on 12/27/13 at 12:10am I do agree with (I am paraphrasing here) ”everyone I met who was attracted to both genders suffered sexual abuse as a child”. I have asked friends and acquaintances who are counselors, physicians, psychologists and physicians regarding the childhood experiences of most of their clients who consider themselves homosexual, lesbian or bi and they have said most (not ALL) have experienced physical, emotional or sexual abuse (no not necessarily sexual abuse) and they usually did not have a healthy father figure. I think it is quite complicated and that there is no simple answers because people respond differently to their circumstances. Like you did suffering child abuse and my husband who grew up without a father.
I believe the APA would never conduct the research allowing thousands of LGB people to be asked about their childhood experiences. They want to promote the “born this way” and “once a homosexual always a homosexual” mindset because it does not fit the politically correct agenda of the power struggle to normalize homosexuality. I want you to think about the outrage and backlash from the LGB community, their activists, Hollywood and academia if they ever tried to conduct this research especially if it confirmed there was a connection. If the research proved this theory wrong they could laud it over folks like me but I don’t believe they are willing to take the risk. The other thing I would like you to think or even pray about is why is there such a powerful spiritual component of sexuality, how it can release appetites, confusion, hormones, physiological responses and emotional pain in children and young teens that they are unable to deal with. Why is it so important for children (like your precious children) be protected by their parents, guardians, etc. from early sexual activity? Because sexual activity was created by God to affect every area not just the body but the mind and the spirit as well. True INTIMACY is meant to = into me you see. It was meant to be a sacred, beautiful gift opened in life-long committed marriage shared by the complimentary sexes that could result in the possible creation of the most beautiful creative gift, a human baby unlike any other child on this earth. Why would God compare the marriage of a man (a groom) and a woman (a bride) to Jesus Christ and his church when they join in the “marriage of the Lamb at the end of time because it is so special to him. Yes we humans even in the church have messed things up terribly because we are disobedient, selfish and sinful.
God bless you prolifers and have a blessed New Year.
they have said most (not ALL) have experienced physical, emotional or sexual abuse (no not necessarily sexual abuse) and they usually did not have a healthy father figure. – the abuse is an outcome, not a cause –
Because male homosexuals have usually been found to have poorer relationships with their fathers than male heterosexuals, and because children who are disappointments to their parents are more likely to be physically abused than other children, it was hypothesized that gays are more likely than heterosexual men to have been physically abused by parents. This hypothesis was tested comparing 17 gay male college students and 67 heterosexual male college students. Gay males were found to have been more abused during adolescence. Abuse was related to a history of childhood femininity, to having poor relationships with fathers, and to having engaged in gay sex during adolescence. A history of childhood femininity and engaging in gay sex may provoke parental abuse. (Joseph Harry Ph.D)
This article reviewed research examining the association between childhood sex-typed behavior and sexual orientation. Prospective studies suggest that childhood cross-sex-typed behavior is strongly predictive of adult homosexual orientation for men; analogous studies for women have not been performed. Though methodologically more problematic, retrospective studies are useful in determining how many homosexual individuals displayed cross-sex behavior in childhood. The relatively large body of retrospective studies comparing childhood sex-typed behavior in homosexual and heterosexual men and women was reviewed quantitatively. Effect sizes were large for both men and women, with men’s significantly larger. Future research should elaborate the causes of the association between childhood sex-typed behavior and sexual orientation and identify correlates of within-orientation differences in childhood sex-typed behavior. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2013 APA, all rights reserved)
They want to promote the “born this way” and “once a homosexual always a homosexual” mindset because it does not fit the politically correct agenda of the power struggle to normalize homosexuality. – do you mean it does or it doesn’t fit the agenda? (which is actually ‘correct’ by the way, not just ‘politically correct’)
I want you to think about the outrage and backlash from the LGB community, their activists, Hollywood and academia if they ever tried to conduct this research – too late!
especially if it confirmed there was a connection. – what connection are you referring to? That “born this way” is factual? Or something else which you don’t appear to have enunciated?
“This hypothesis was tested comparing 17 gay male college students and 67 heterosexual male college students.”
That’s a really, really small study size.
Indeed it is Jack. It is only meant to be evidential of the fact that studies have been conducted on the childhoods of LGBT folk. Including by the APA. Contrary to Prolifer’s claim. There are oodles of studies out there.
Catch y’all later
Why would you trust people who live “closeted” lifestyles just cause they are homosexual? If they can keep something like that from you then why do you trust them at all?
“Weirdest question ever. And it also has nothing to do with pedophilia.”
Deluded Liberal, it is not a weird question. Do you not see it is dishonest and unhealthy for people to live dual lives. Pedophiles, heterosexuals who cheat on their spouses, people with addictions etc. etc. all share that trait of living alternate (closeted) lifestyles and the fact that you do not immediately recognize this as being unhealthy speaks volumes to why you are so accepting of these behaviors. On the most basic level it is dishonest.
“Deluded Lib, Any idea what percentage of the homosexual population supports PLAGAL?”
”No clue!”
That answer also speaks volumes to the depths of your delusion. You criticize me for saying “the LGBT community as a whole does not speak out much against Planned Parenthood” and then you answer “No clue” when asked what percentage of the LGBT community supports PLAGAL. Stunning.
“Pedophiles, heterosexuals who cheat on their spouses, people with addictions etc. etc. all share that trait of living alternate (closeted) lifestyles and the fact that you do not immediately recognize this as being unhealthy speaks volumes to why you are so accepting of these behaviors. On the most basic level it is dishonest.”
I AM NOT ACCEPTING OF HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIORS. OR PEDOPHILIA (THOUGH IT CAN’T REALLY BE COMPARED TO HOMOSEXUALITY) OR INFIDELITY OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
If I caps-lock it will it get through to you people?
A bisexual man marrying a woman isn’t “closeting” anything necessarily. He’s simply marrying someone he cares about and not acting on his same sex urges. I don’t get what you’re saying, that bisexual or homosexuals who decide to suppress their same sex urges are just automatically dishonest if they get in a relationship with a person of the opposite sex? If I marry a woman and am honest about what I am, that’s still “closeted”? This is so dumb. There’s no winning in this religion if you aren’t naturally straight, no matter what you do you’re wrong as a person, I really can’t stand it. I don’t even think it’s biblical or that it goes by Catholic catechism.
“That answer also speaks volumes to the depths of your delusion. You criticize me for saying “the LGBT community as a whole does not speak out much against Planned Parenthood” and then you answer “No clue” when asked what percentage of the LGBT community supports PLAGAL. Stunning.”
I’ve never polled the entire LGBT community to find out their abortion views. I do think that LGBT people tend to be more liberal than not, and unfortunately liberals tend to be pro-choice, so there is probably a correlation between the two. But that doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of pro-aborts and people who partake in or get abortions are heterosexuals. I think it’s ridiculous how much people focus on such a tiny percentage of the population for so much condemnation.
Deluded Lib,
Part of your delusive personality is the ability to delude yourself into thinking people can live separate lives depending on who they are with and there is no trust lost in the relationships.
“I think it’s ridiculous how much people focus on such a tiny percentage of the population for so much condemnation”
I think it is ridiculous how much people see common sense things as some kind of condemnation…like the fact that homosexuals can never experience the same love in their relationships as heterosexuals can.
Ugh then what’s your solution, truth? All the homos and bis just go isolate themselves because they are inherently untrustworthy and wrong? Like I said, there’s no winning. Does it surprise you most don’t want anything to do with Christianity because people like you can’t even view them as normal humans?
LGBT people can love too.
I don’t think you have to hate yourself for something that you can’t help just to be a Christian. I think that it’s fairly well Biblically supported that it’s your actions that matter, not your unwilled attractions, and that LGBT people don’t have to be viewed as worse humans than straight people.
“Ugh then what’s your solution, truth? All the homos and bis just go isolate themselves because they are inherently untrustworthy and wrong?”
No Deluded Lib. I would suggest that honesty is a fundamental building block of all healthy relationships.
Well no kidding. Why do you think people who aren’t straight who choose to be with someone of the opposite gender are necessarily lying to their spouses? Don’t you think many spouses are aware that their spouse is not 100% straight? Don’t you think many couples discuss and deal with the situation?
Deluded Lib, it is common that homosexuals ‘come out’ after years of hiding their homosexuality from all but their homosexual friends. Closeted living is a dishonest lifestyle.
Turthseeker, I really wish you could have some compassion for people struggling with homosexual attractions.
I was raised in an exceedingly homophobic “church”, where gay and bisexual men were considered disgusting degenerates who were basically incapable of having real relationships with anyone. If someone was found to be gay, or suspected, they were pressured and coerced into standing in front of the congregation and confessing their shameful and revolting attractions/actions and after that, people basically ostracized them. It was a cult as well, so it was very difficult to leave. People’s lives were destroyed for not being straight. It wasn’t a big church, just a couple hundred people I think, so there were very few gay people and even fewer that were caught. But there were a few.
As a small child, I didn’t really understand what “gay” meant, but I had a vague idea. I was being sexually abused by my father, and I was under the impression that it was my fault and that I was just as revolting and sinful as the few gay people I had witnessed being forced to confess in front of everyone. When I was about ten or eleven, I started to realize that I wasn’t completely straight either. I discovered that I would get crushes and attractions to both girls and other boys. I was terrified and ashamed, I thought this meant that I was evil, and disgusting, and that I was automatically going to hell. I asked my dad if I was going to hell and he said maybe, and then blamed his abuse of me on my sexual orientation and said that if anyone ever found out that I wasn’t straight and what we were doing, they would blame me and hate me. I kept my mouth shut for years. I had massive amounts of shame and self-hatred, both for what my father was doing to me (and he was getting progressively more sadistic as I got older, I viewed the sadism as a punishment from God) and because I thought I was evil for not being straight. I thought that God hated me, that it was a sin for me to even exist. I thought the sexual abuse and physical pain was a punishment directly from God for not being heterosexual. I don’t even have words to describe how much I hated myself, for being bisexual and causing my father to abuse me. I self-harmed a lot, and started drinking and abusing drugs to try and handle what was going on and how I felt about myself.
When I was fifteen I had found out on the internet that what my dad was doing was actually illegal and that most people considered it a horrific crime. When my parents weren’t home I called an anonymous hotline and talked to a person there that told me that no, my sexual orientation wasn’t causing the abuse, and that it was okay to tell someone and get help. They offered to help me find a rape crisis counselor to help me report it. I turned them down because they were a stranger, I was scared, and I wanted someone I knew. I decided to tell my youth pastor and ask him to help me report my dad, because he was usually kind to me, and he was aware of the beatings that were going on in my home and he had shown me sympathy for my mother beating me. I was very ashamed so I was vague and downplayed it when I tried to tell him what was being done to me, but he understood that sexual abuse was happening. He started questioning me about my sexuality, asking me if I enjoyed what my father did to me, and if I was attracted to men. He told me it was normal for teen boys to be curious but I needed to take responsibility and repent for my actions. I was horrified and could see I was going to be blamed and he wasn’t going to help me stop my dad, so I tried to say I was lying and that I made it all up as a joke. He didn’t believe me. I was brought in front of the other pastors and elders and they told my dad. My dad even admitted to being sexual with me (though he downplayed it drastically, he only admitted to some fondling), but said that I had initiated it and that it had started recently, not when I was a toddler which was when it really started. My dad was very popular with the elders, so they basically just prayed with him to help him be forgiven of his sins. I was punished by having to confess in front of the congregation (though they told me not to say it was my father the behavior happened with), and was given weekly “Bible study” with my youth pastor, where we went over all the verses about homosexuality and how wrong it was, and how the Lord considers people abominations for being involved in it. I asked my youth pastor if I was going to hell, and he said (I remember this very clearly) “It is very hard for God and his followers to love people like you. I can’t tell you there’s a good chance for you to go to heaven, because I don’t want to lie to you.”.
So, for the next decade to this day, I struggle with hating myself for something I never asked for and can’t control. I would do anything to be straight, but I’m just not. It’s nearly impossible for me to think God loves me. I usually assume Christians think I’m a sick degenerate just for not being heterosexual, and the way people talk hasn’t reassured me that isn’t true. I feel that God punished me severely for my sexual orientation, and that I can never be as loved and cared about as heterosexual people. I have always felt second class and inferior when I go to a church or try to interact with Christians. I try really hard to accept that I’m not worse than everyone else, but I can’t seem to convince myself that’s true. I never admitted to my ex-wife that I wasn’t completely straight until she asked me flat out a few months before we got divorced. I wasn’t trying to lie to her. I was terrified of being punished, or being hated, or her blaming me or hurting me because of it. Some of my fears were realized there, she was never very nice about it. While we were still married I would go to church with her sometimes, and if homosexuality came up everyone was so condemning of people who weren’t 100% heterosexual, comparing us to pedophiles and people who practice bestiality, saying that we were much more likely to abuse children because we wanted to “recruit” more gays. They would talk about how homosexuals want to infiltrate churches and how you can’t trust them. I would sit there and just be utterly overwhelmed with shame and self-hatred and fear. I wasn’t trying to be “closeted” or anything, it’s just there’s so much condemnation and shame around for not being straight, even if you’re trying to be moral and not be involved in any homosexual relationships. It’s like people think you’re a lesser human being because you aren’t heterosexual. It’s really hard to trust religious people enough to be honest.
Can you please try to understand that there is a huge issue with how LGBT people are treated by religious people, and that it is encouraging people to keep it a secret? If we’re constantly referred to as aberrations, and abominations, and vile, and language like that, we won’t feel safe to be honest. If violence against LGBT people is blamed on their sexuality and people feel like LGBT people deserve to be hurt or punished, of course we’ll keep it a secret. Can you see what I’m saying at all? Can you please try to imagine what it would be like to know that you have something wrong with you, that makes people think you are sick and deserve to be punished, and then try to imagine telling someone this disgusting thing about yourself. I don’t know how to get through to people here. I don’t like sharing that about my childhood and I think it’s horribly disgusting, but I really think people don’t even see LGBT people as humans sometimes, with fears and unhappiness and needing love too. I don’t know, I just wish you could see what it feels like and then maybe you would have some compassion and empathy for what this struggle is like. Thank you for reading. Please don’t insult me.
Oh and I realize it’s natural for heterosexual people to be disgusted by homosexual behavior, and no one has to not find it disgusting. I just think maybe we’re not supposed to be angry at or disgusted at the people themselves and that you should try to understand how they feel and why they do what they do. Even though most Christians find homosexual behavior revolting, I really wish that people didn’t see us as bad for just being gay or bi. It’s not revolting to just exist, people shouldn’t have to feel ashamed or be punished for something that they can’t control. I think Jesus might love LGBT people just as much as heterosexual people, even if he finds the behavior worse than any other non-marital sex. I think that LGBT people should feel as safe coming out to Christians as they would coming out to Jesus. I just wish people could try to put themselves in the shoes of someone who isn’t straight before they speak about homosexual behavior, try to think of how Jesus would want these people to feel about themselves.
And btw I realize it was incredibly stupid of me to try and get help from my youth pastor, and that I should have known better. I was a stupid kid. So please don’t blame me for that, I already understand it was a terrible, bad decision and I can’t handle being blamed any more for that particular one, my ex told me over and over how idiotic I was for telling him.
I just wish someone would acknowledge how painful this is and how people talk. Anyone.
Deluded Lib, rather than reply immediately I will take some time and gather my thoughts so I can better respond.
One thing you should know about me; and I would have done the same for you. When I was 28 and first met my wife she told me how her 15 yer old brother told her he was getting sexually abused by her stepfather. I went over to her her grandfather’s house where her mother and step-father lived and confronted the abuser and he actually admitted to the abuse and tried to play it off as consensual and/or normal. When I sat down with her grandfather he wanted to subdue the situation and talked about how her stepfather contributed to the household with rent etc. I had to make it clear I was not going to leave until they throw the stepfather out and when I went to confront him a second time the mother did finally ask the stepfather to go (once she realized it would have to be a choice between him and her children).
I got all choked up, I’m glad that you were there to protect that kid. I hope he is doing well now. I used to dream someone would do something like that for me but people just kept blaming me.
Deluded Lib, IMO fear of coming out to people is not so healthy but I understand why you are afraid. You may actually be better off going through life without close relationships to those who wouldn’t accept you for who you are. Honesty about who you are can earn trust and friendship from those who would accept you for who you are. Healthy fear is a fear of acting in ways that go against God’s plan for mankind and celibacy may be a good way to give the Lord dominion over your life.