Stanek weekend question: Does it bother you that pro-choicers portray pro-lifers as violent?
DelawareOnline.com reported that an employee of the Planned Parenthood abortion clinic in Wilmington, Delaware, called police on September 3 to investigate a “suspicious package… on the grass next to the parking lot.”
After “a major inbound route for drivers in Wilmington” was closed for 1-1/2 hours, according to newsworks.org, a robot determined the box, addressed to Planned Parenthood, was empty. “Police believe it was trash and had blown out of the dumpster in the lot of Planned Parenthood,” explained Capt. William Browne.
An employee of any other business would have come to work, spotted the box, picked it up, and thrown it away.
But such is the paranoid world the abortion industry has created for itself in its attempt to malign pro-lifers as violent. We comprise the most peaceful social justice movement in history. On any given day dozens to hundreds of prayer vigils and protests are held at abortion clinics throughout the country without incident other than pro-choice violence directed certainly toward their tiny victims inside and sometimes toward pro-lifers outside.
In total, over 41+ years, eight abortion workers have been murdered, all between 1993-1998 except for late-term abortionist George Tiller in 2009. These acts were obviously carried out by people on the fringe, which all movements must contend with.
But the other side enjoys defaming all of us, obviously to elicit sympathy for themselves from the public as well as fear and distrust of pro-lifers. They are also trying to intimidate pro-lifers into backing away from protesting.
Well, this ploy has worked. See photo and story above.
Or has it backfired? Certainly fear keeps doctors and others from working at abortion clinics. It must also avert some segment of the pregnant population from getting abortions.
Do you mind the portrayal of pro-lifers as violent? Do you find yourself responding to the caricature by perhaps overreacting as a peacenik?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Yes it bothers me.
I just had this conversation on FB yesterday. Someone tried to equate ISIS with pro-lifers, or to use her words, “Christian terrorists that murder doctors & clinic workers and harass women trying to get healthcare.” My response: “8 deaths since 1973 compared to over 15,000 in 2012 alone. Seems an apt comparison.”
Of course it bothers me, but at the same time, their caricatures go so overboard that it’s becoming a weakness. Someone on the fence merely has to MEET a pro-lifer and compare that person to the caricature, and the seeds of distrust toward the abortion industry are planted. And with the great effort of groups like SFLA, it’s hard for young people not to know at least one active pro-lifer.
I once mistakenly left my backpack behind after a prayer vigil at Planned Parenthood in Madison. I got it back a few weeks later with a note in it from “Women of the World” with the usual about people who should mind their own business, etc. Nothing but holy water, Pro Life pamphlets and a crucifix in there. Hope they got an eyeful about how “violent” Pro Lifers are from going through the contents of my backpack.
Actually, let them tell all the lies they want about us. Like the Muslims who are converting to Christianity now because of the good example of Christians and the bad example of ISIL, God can take their evil and use it for His good. God’s plans never change, they never collapse, and with God all things are possible. We don’t need Planned Parenthood to tell us how good or bad we are, anyway; they aren’t our Father Confessors.
We comprise the most peaceful social justice movement in history.
As I have said before, this supposed fact appears to have been made up by people pretending that the difference between Cheryl Sullenger and Eric Rudolph is one of conscience rather than competence. If you want anyone to take you seriously, you’ll need to back up your claim by giving the statistics for all the physical assaults, bombings or attempted bombings, acid attacks, and vandalism carried against abortion clinics and practitioners, and then give the statistics for all the homicides, physical assaults, bombings or attempted bombings, acid attacks, and vandalism committed by all other “social justice” movements in the history of the world.
Without actual comparative data, you’re just pulling self-congratulatory tripe out of your backside.
How does this question state that 8 doctors have been murdered, and then follow with two statements as fact, that obviously aren’t?:
But such is the paranoid world the abortion industry has created for itself in its attempt to malign pro-lifers as violent.
We comprise the most peaceful social justice movement in history.
I mean, I’m not trying to stir up too much trouble here, but seriously – read through this, and then tell me those two statements are true:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5UDALTYyg
Pro-lifer James Poullion was murdered while holding a sign from his wheelchair. Where is the media?
In the same breath,Wikipedia is not always reliable as anyone can post on it.
LisaC,
Eric Rudolph was a religious fanatic, your run of the mill thug and terrorist. Abortion clinics were only some of his targets. Does he represent Christian people any more than he does PL?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Rudolph
Pro-lifers have been murdered too. Jim Pouillon anyone? I know there are others–forgive me if I can’t pull up names right now.
And of course lets not bat an eye at 56 million dead human children.
Sorry– Michelle already mentioned Jim. Didn’t catch that in time.
A rapist who was pro-abortion (shocker) beat an elderly pro-life man and put him in the hospital with a broken hip–that happened just a few years ago. A woman came out of a PP and beat an elderly pro-life woman and it was caught on her phone. That was not that long ago either.
I’ve been threatened with rape and beatings at the clinic. I’ve never threatened any abortionist or woman going into the clinic.
Michelle –
Feel free to refute any of the information that is listed on the wiki link I posted.
We could take each one line by line if you want as well.
Even if the pro-life movement disappeared entirely, along with every Christian and every Republican, the abortion industry would still be paranoid and hyper-vigilant.
They hurt a lot of people.
Fathers, grandparents, women who were aborted to cover up abuse, abusers who were caught because abortionists reported them, women who were lied to in order to sell an abortion, women who really wanted the abortion and regret their decision — all have reason to blame abortionists for their pain. And some will lash out in violent response.
We never see happy people leaving Planned Parenthood.
===================================
Meanwhile, I do not mind that that the abortion industry lies about the vast millions of peaceful pro-lifers.
Of course, I am troubled by any and all of the lies that the abortion industry tells to women.
But the lie that pro-lifers are all violent radicals has served us well. It unnerves the clinic employees as we pray our rosaries on their sidewalks. It deters some abortion-minded women from the clinic. It magnifies the love and generosity that we show when a surprised lie-believer encounters the truth.
How many Pro Lifers have gotten death threats simply for being present at an abortion mill or doing a Pro Life demonstration somewhere?
We have real home-grown terrorist groups in the US that don’t get death threats because they will return EVERY death threat with a solid beat-down or you will end up dead. A little imagination can provide the names of these groups. Let’s just say there’s race involved and they sell and carry guns and drugs.
Now, Pro Lifers are supposed to be categorized with those gangs? What’s wrong with that picture? When was the last time one of those gangs was charged under the RICO Statute? Never hear of that any more. But Joe Scheidler everyone knows went up on those charges. Which were dropped by the Supreme Court. Which should mean anyone associated with Joe in any way shouldn’t be on the list of gangs under government scrutiny.
Of course, now, under NDAA, the Land of the Once Free is now considered a battlefield, so it’s just another brick in the wall of Separation of Church and State, where eventually the Christians will all be put behind the brick walls of prisons.
EGV,
As I recall, Hill made claims to being a PL “leader” despite vehement denials by NRL, who said they had never heard of him. Hill was promoted as such, on The Phil Donahue Show no less, in an effort to “prove” PL people were violent. NRL advised that it was very dangerous to feed Hill’s sick fantasies of killing abortion doctors with media attention, and to please let NRL send a legitimate PL representative. No dice. The rest is history. If anything, PL leadership tried to prevent a killing. It was the PAs who were so determined to “prove” a point, that it may well have cost a man his life.
http://abortion.ws/2010/08/18/the-donahue-show/
Mary –
Was this to me? I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, or what post you are referencing. Hill?
Sorry EGV,
Try this link, problem with the computer again! Its acting up and I have to type links in. Ugh! Hope this works.
http://abortion.ws/2010/08/18/the-donohue-show/
My apologies EGV,
I should have been specific. I’m referring to the killing of abortionist John Britton by Paul Hill in 1994. Its listed in your source.
There are the abortion abolitionists, some of who might do more than protest, and there are the pro-lifers.
Those are two distinct groups. The abortion abolitionists distinguish themselves from prolifers. Some of them think we are too wimpy.
Various lefties try so hard to categorize people, and they often are very poor at this. They are particularly poor at distinguishing between pro-lifers and abortion abolitionists. They also are poor at distinguishing the category of religion from the category of race, and they are unskilled at distinguishing among the races and the ethnic groups. Very few leftists could distinguish a racist from a bigot, and many of them are both.
It seems that this kind ineptitude among pro-abort lefties has caused precipitous reduction in the number of abortionists. That is a very good thing, and makes it much more palatable to be conflated with those who would do things that I would not.
Quoting Michelle:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx5UDALTYyg Pro-lifer James Poullion was murdered while holding a sign from his wheelchair. Where is the media
James Poullion’s death was widely reported at the time and was condemned by Pres. Obama as “deplorable.” The man who killed him, Harlan Drake, appears to have been either neutral on abortion or pro-life, because he insisted that he was “not against anti-abortion” and killed Pouillion over his graphic signs. A name that you never hear, incidentally, is Mike Fuoss. Drake killed him for the same reason he killed Poullion: a personal grudge. Pro-lifers want Mr. Fuoss erased from memory because he disrupts their narrative.
Eric Rudolph was a religious fanatic, your run of the mill thug and terrorist. Abortion clinics were only some of his targets.
Mary, I concede the point. Eric Rudolph branched out beyond bombing abortion clinics, and Cheryl Sullenger did not. As far as we know.
A rapist who was pro-abortion (shocker) beat an elderly pro-life man and put him in the hospital with a broken hip–that happened just a few years ago.
That was wrong, and the attacker should be punished. But you are missing Jill’s point. She’s not claiming that pro-lifers are more peaceful than people who are pro-choice. She’s claiming that pro-lifers are more peaceful than any other movement in the history of forever. As I said above, she seems to have pulled that claim out of her backside, without a shred of supporting data. Personally, I don’t unquestioningly believe anything that comes out of Jill’s backside. Whether or not you do is entirely your own affair.
But let’s go back to Michelle’s video for a moment. If you watch it to the end, you’ll see that its creators, the Army of God, refer you to their homepage. That page hails Scott Roeder and Paul Hill as “American heroes” who committed “justifiable homicide,” invites you to send Scott Roeder a thank-you note, and hosts what it calls the “authorized” home pages of Paul Hill, Eric Rudolph, and Shelley Shannon, a pro-violence pro-lifer whom Jill is finding convenient not to mention.
I’m not going to ask Michelle if she is personally pro-violence, because of course she’d deny it either way. But when a site that bills itself as the “pro-life pulse” is only two links away from a pro-life site advocating murder, then it’s pretty comical to assert that the anti-abortion movement is “the most peaceful social justice movement in history.”
Thank you LisaC,
However, its opposite what you say. Rudolph branched out to bombing abortion clinics. He was the bomber in The Centennial Olympic Park bombing that killed innocent people, it also destroyed the life of a guard who was falsely accused, prior to any clinic bombings.
He was a murderous terrorist and thug who held no regard for human life, born or unborn.
I think “defaming” is a strong word. What’s wrong with people being concerned for their safety? I’m 100% pro-life but find this post to be fanning the flames of a non-existent fire.
I listen to that slander every time I go to a legislative hearing in New Hampshire that touches on the life issues. During the hearings for our new (unenforced-&-in-court) buffer zone law, one legislator on the committee said that even handing a woman a brochure could be an act of violence.
One thing my abortion-advocate neighbors get right is their insistence that we remember the names of murdered abortion facility workers. I agree – just as we remember by name the women who die at the hands of abortion providers, and just as we remember the children lost to abortion.
Yes, it bothers me in so far as this inaccurate betrayal ay discourage fence sitters from joining our side. After all, how many people are going to want to join and/or support the goals of a movement that they perceive as being violent?
LisaC,
Thank you for the info on Harlan Drake. It should also be pointed out that Tiller’s killer, Scott Roeder, was schizophrenic and a former member of the militia. Obviously an unstable and violent man.
I posted earlier that it was National Right to Life that made every effort to prevent Paul Hill from carrying out his sick fantasies by pleading with the Donohue show to let them send a legitimate PL representative. It was PA people who were determined to prove Hill represented PL people, knowing full well they were only feeding his sick fantasies.
I think we can agree that killers on either side of this issue are deranged people who in no way represent the people on either side of this issue.
LisaC, so if Scott Roeder had shot George Tiller on the grounds that he kills viable unborn babies via induced heart attacks (but is not against abortion per se), you wouldn’t consider that an example of anti-abortion violence?
I’ve seen plenty of reference to Mike Fuoss on anti-abortion sites:
http://www.jillstanek.com/2009/09/latest-on-pro-life-martyr-jim-pouillons-murder-shooter-attempts-suicide-obama-finally-issues-statement-what-sign-was-jim-holding/
https://www.google.ca/?gws_rd=ssl#q=site:lifenews.com+mike+fuoss
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/well-known-local-pro-life-activist-gunned-down-in-michigan
The shooter only killed Fuoss because he realized that he was going to jail anyway, so he figured he might as well kill somebody else. Drake says his thought process was “I just shot one person. I might as well shoot anybody else that I think might deserve to be shot that day.”
And it definitely bothers me. It might have averted some abortion clinics from running, but so did the peaceful rescue movement (which was defeated largely because pro-choicers were able to portray pro-lifers as violent).
Beyond 99%, pro-lifers pray for pro-choicers. Even Tiller once shot.
Pro-choices take the less-than-one-percent stray, crazy murderous or terrorist pro-lifer, and attempt to define all pro-lifers in the same way.
There is not much point in arguing this here.
You are just arguing a preposterous point with cult-thinking Marxists who cannot sustain a reasonable discussion.
Just watch. No amount of evidence would cause any of these Marxist-driven morality-cult blind followers to acquiesce one “smidgeon.”
Here is another little bit of trivia regarding our president, and violent activities of pro-lifers/pro-choicers:
Obama did release an official white house press release soon after Tiller’s murder.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/Statement-From-The-President-On-The-Murder-Of-DR-George-Tiller/
The Poullion event was not long after that.
The media reported that Obama made or released some statement deploring the Poullion murder.
At the time, I sought evidence of the president making such a statement.
Other than various news outlets reporting that he had made such a statement, I could not find evidence of this.
There has never been a White House press release, as there was with Tiller.
There was no news-media answer in some press conference, as far as I could find then, and now.
Again, it is yet another occasion where the President parses words, and the media play along, to create a false impression in the minds of the public.
I challenge anyone to provide substantial evidence of an actual, vetted statement from the President, other than the multiple media / “churnalism” reports.
I would contend that he never made any such statement, and that possibly he agreed to allow someone to release something like this on his behalf. Probably begrudgingly.
Pro-choicers, have no fear regarding your leader’s allegiance. He may be slow to act, and lukewarm, with the global-warming activists and the same-sex activists that he has been stringing along in his “coalition politics,” but he is totally there for the pro-choice industry.
20 years ago the ‘dead babies r us’ mob labeled me an International terrorist because I had the audacity to cross the border into Canada and train pro-lifers in the ministry of passive non-violent resistance.
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These are the same democRAT liars who today falsely claim that conservatives are ‘waging a war on women’. (Please pardon the redundancy.)
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In the 1300 plus years that Jew hating jihadists have been waging an unrelenting war on ‘infidels’ approximately 270 million people have been brutally murdered. In the past two weeks two infidel journalists have been decapitated and the video of the execution has been transmitted around the world by the proud practioners of the religion of peace.
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Jew hating jihadist have made rape, kidnapping, forced marriage and forced conversation a standard strategy in their war on women. Under jihad, an infidel wife who has been taken captive has her marriage instantly annulled by the goddess of the religion of peace and given to jihadist as spoils of war or sold into the sex slave trade.
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The ‘dead babies r us’ mob mourns the passing of butchers who dismember and decapitate pre-natal children. The boRAT has yet to utter a sinlgle syllable since Kermit Gosnell was convicted of multiple counts of murdering premature infants by severing their spinal cords by plunging scissors into their necks.
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In the United States alone we have executed over 50,000,000 pre-natal children and progressive democRATs led by barbarians like the boRAT have done everything within their power to deny protection to these children, even the children who have survived the abortionists first attempt on their precious young lives.
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The only crime I have ever been convicted of is the second degree misdemeanor of trespassing. I participated in a ‘sit in’ at an abortuary which actually saved the lives of some pre-natal children who were scheduled to be executed that very day. The only person I have ever killed is my own pre-natal son. In the eyes of the ‘dead babies r us’ mob that makes me a hero and candidate for martyrdom, perhaps even sainthood and if I vote democRAT I may be eligible to receive 72 virgins as my eternal reward/ punishment.
Pro-choicers don’t need to portray anti-choicers as violent, we can leave that up to you. When it comes down to it, the enforcing of gestation and childbirth upon women is a form of violence.
Scintillating demonstration of cultural confusion there ken, a most entertaining read.
Real-stupid-ity
Is that really the best you can do?
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Truth really is a challenge to you, isn’t it?
To compare the natural phenomena of childbirth to the violent murder of adults by adults demonstrates a pathological level of cognitive dissonance.
The compulsion to maintain a false narrative trumps all to the zealous abortion fan. Only Jesus can heal that level of sickness.
The Pro Life movement isn’t Murder, Inc. We aren’t a gang or drug dealers who kill other gang members. Violent gangs are organized to break laws and do murder, sell drugs, guns, porn and people. They rob, rape and steal. When the culture experiences civil unrest, they get involved in riots and vandalism. They have their own culture organized around a type of dress. Their own particular sound track is furnished by the entertainment industry, depending on what type of gang they are in. Movies are made about them and the media play them up like cultural heroes. For anyone to stretch the Pro Life movement into anything like a bunch of lawless miscreants, there has to be a mental problem, a financial incentive or a political motivation, or maybe all three at once.
“Is that really the best you can do?” – well I suppose that my writing something straight forward and rational pales somewhat on a purely literary level compared to claiming that voting for the party of reason would deliver 72 virgins unto one.
“Truth really is a challenge to you, isn’t it?” – only when I seek it in what you’ve written (ok, a few other folk here too).
“To compare the natural phenomena of childbirth to the violent murder of adults by adults demonstrates a pathological level of cognitive dissonance.” – tut tut, I didn’t say that childbirth itself is violent (although such could be argued on some level), I stated that forcing someone through gestation and childbirth is tantamount to violence – I didn’t say ‘murder’. Sex isn’t generally regarded as an act of violence either, until force is involved. That is a more appropriate comparison to what anti-choicers seek to do to other women.
“The compulsion to maintain a false narrative trumps all to the zealous abortion fan.” – except that the lady isn’t presenting a false narrative.
LisaC, so if Scott Roeder had shot George Tiller on the grounds that he kills viable unborn babies via induced heart attacks (but is not against abortion per se), you wouldn’t consider that an example of anti-abortion violence?
If Scott Roeder and George Tiller had been arguing for years about whether Tiller should kill unborn babies with saline instead of injections and then one day Roeder killed Tiller and someone else with no connection to abortion politics, then I would not consider that an example of anti-abortion violence. However, what he actually did was kill Dr. Tiller to prevent him from providing abortions. And he did so following a long series of anti-abortion acts, including clinic vandalism, stalking physicians, clinic protests, and sidewalk counseling. He was obviously motivated by opposition to abortion.
So was Eric Rudolph, incidentally. He bombed the Centennial Park in objection to the US government’s support of “abortion on demand,” and bombed abortion clinics because he thought that abortion is murder and that murder ought to be stopped. It’s the same reason that Paul Hill killed two people (two, not one, Mary).
It may be that none of you really believe that a child is murdered each time an abortion is performed. But it shouldn’t be a shock that other people do believe it.
Finally, when an organization that has been bombed in the past exercises caution with a potentially suspicious packaged, it’s not saying that everyone who opposes the organization is violent. It’s taking precautions against the possibility that one person who opposes it is violent.
We comprise the most peaceful social justice movement in history.
So we’re all agreed that this gem came out of Jill’s backside, right?
The “War on Women” is named that for propaganda purposes. So, let’s examine that name assigned by the media and the opinion spinners.
Women have been given the right to murder the children they and a man have gotten together. Children are the enemy,then, and the “War on Women” will only be won when the enemy are killed in large enough numbers that they stop their attack on women. Saying children in the womb are not the enemy of women makes you an enemy of women. Men who defend the rights of the unborn child are enemies of women. Women who think men aren’t enemies of women are enemies of women. Men having sex with women is an attack on women.
Sounds crazy when the “logic” of “War on Women” is taken to it’s logical conclusions. But every one of the above themes are taught in college courses today, sometimes worded slightly differently, but taught nonetheless.
Conclusion: There are way more insane people on the War on Women side of the argument than there are on the Peace in the Womb side of the argument.
There are way more insane people on the War on Women side of the argument than there are on the Peace in the Womb side of the argument.
I agree with you that pro-life terrorists like Rudolph and Sullenger are sane. But you don’t understand Jill’s point. She is saying that no other social movement that has existed on this planet in the past five millenia has ever had less violence associated with it. If that claim is true, then surely she can back it up. Right?
Lisa C. :
I think the stronger claim is to argue from the point of view of proportionality. What would be the appropriate response to the slaughter of 55 million+ unborn innocents? Nuclear World War III?
I wonder sometimes if there is such a thing as any appropriate counter-action to that amount of carnage. And to focus on the deaths of a few tragic human beings who are only responsible for a small amount of the slaughter, as tragic as those death are, seems to me to be straining at gnats while swallowing a camel.
I think the stronger claim is to argue from the point of view of proportionality. What would be the appropriate response to the slaughter of 55 million+ unborn innocents
Well, pro-lifers bomb abortion clinics for the same reason they protest them: to shut the clinic and thereby save future unborn innocents, not because they think it’s an appropriate response to past slaughters. Think of it this way: you’ve watched your neighbor dismember thirty or forty innocent toddlers every day for many years. The police have done nothing. Do you say, “I’m not going to forcibly stop my neighbor from dismembering any more sweet, precious toddlers because it’s too late to respond proportionately to the deaths of all the precious toddlers,” or do you, at some point, forcibly stop your neighbor, thereby sacrificing your own liberty but saving the lives of untold future precious toddlers? After all, some people might think twice about taking up the hobby of dismembering precious toddlers if they thought they put themselves in danger by doing so.
I think the stronger claim is to argue from the point of view of proportionality.
You may think that, but Jill made a claim that argued for the view of history. Obviously she does not have a shred of evidence to support that claim. One can’t help but wonder what other claims she makes are without basis.
Lisa C.:
Love the sinner, hate the sin.
Sin harms the sinner more than the one sinned against.
We are a nation of laws, not men.
Because we are a nation of laws, not men, abortion is a national sin, much like the Holocaust was a national sin.
We Christians are called to love our fellow man as if he were ourselves, and serve his need as we would want him to serve our needs.
I cannot serve my sinning neighbor by doing unto him what I would not have him do unto me, namely kill me, legally, under an unjust law, which is a national sin.
If our nation is to recover from the national sin of abortion, it will not be through sinning against our neighbor; it will be through serving our fallen country through a repeal of Roe v. Wade. This can only be accomplished through “Soul Force.”
Killing abortionists serves to make the deaths of same something which they are not, and paints the Pro Life movement as something which it is not.
If and when Roe is repealed, and abortion goes underground, it would then be appropriate for American citizens to hunt abortionists down and bring them to answer to the law, much like Nazi Hunter Simon Wiesenthal hunted down Eichmann. Full disclosure: I have told abortionists to their face that this is what they would be facing if Roe is repealed.
Before repeal of Roe, I think it is appropriate to bring as much “Soul Force” to bear on the destroyers of the innocents as we possibly can.
People come out of the abortion industry all the time. If there was no appropriate reciprocal response from the Pro Life movement, they likely wouldn’t come out, and if they did, without the healing ministry of the Church, they would very likely die in their sin. Not offering the “Soul Force” of reconciliation is as bad as destroying their body before they have a chance to repent, as happens when abortionists are killed.
They come out and are given a second chance by the Pro Life movement, especially under Abby Johnson’s ministry, “And Then There Were None.” This reflects the Higher Law which was broken by them when they co-operated with abortion and now is healed through the Blood of Christ in the New Covenant.
I have no idea whether the Pro Life movement is the most peaceful movement in history, but I do know what was the most righteous act ever done in history. This was the Sacrifice of the Cross. The closer the Pro Life movement is to the Cross, the closer it is to the most righteous act ever done in history.
I don’t think Sophie Scholl was a hero. She talked tough about the horrors of the Holocaust and the humanity of its victims. But she never gunned down an unarmed S.S. officer in his church, now, did she? She didn’t believe people were actually being murdered any more than Adolf Hitler did, but at least he wasn’t a self-righteous hypocrite about it.
Same logic.
Well, it seems that Navi has just won the thread.
I don’t think Sophie Scholl was a hero [etc]
Well, by the arguments expressed in this thread, Germans who tried to overthrow Hitler by force are murderous terrorists with no regard for human life. But pro-lifers seem to consider themselves their own heroes, so I guess they’re covered there.