AZ abortionist whines: “We are suffering here”
by Kelli
At the time, it was a doctors office. And then I started doing abortions in my office. I was kind of thinking about it, and one of my family practice patients had an unplanned pregnancy. I told her, ‘if you want to come back in two days, we can do it, like any other medical thing.’ So she went home, we did a couple of consent forms, and that was it. Then I started getting referrals. Literally I needed a pulse oximeter to monitor their vitals, a vacuum machine and staff and a recovery room, and the knowledge and skills to do it….
Gradually, it just kind of took over my practice. Not only because of patient need, but because of the amount of effort — it just takes over. I have to have RNs now, and monitoring. There’s so much involved in it, so I wouldn’t do that for a few procedures a week. To do more than 5 abortions a month, you have to be a licensed abortion clinic. So now probably 5 percent of my practice is general practice….
So it’s very stressful. I have about 20 binders of policies and procedures for everything. It’s all specific for an abortion procedure. And then there’s the 24 hour wait, the information session, the ultrasound that has to be printed, she has to see it….
The waiting period was probably the worst for patients. You have to do the meeting first, it has to be with a physician, you can’t have a nurse do it. That has been an incredible burden on women, and on us. I have to meet with every single patient….
I feel like jumping up and down. We are suffering here, women are suffering. It just puts people underground. My numbers are the same as they’ve ever been. It’s harder, it’s more expensive, people come in later.
~ Arizona abortionist Gabrielle Goodrick (pictured), owner of Camelback Family Planning, complaining about how rough things have gotten for the abortion business in her state in recent years, as quoted by The Washington Post, January 9
Note: Camelback Family Planning was one of the abortion clinics exposed during Live Action’s “Gendercide: Sex Selection in America” sting, in which an employee suggested that the client not mention sex-selection as the reason for her abortion due to a law prohibiting such abortions in AZ.
[Goodrick photo via Facebook]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
You find it burdensome to meet with each patient? My hairdresser meets with every client. You want to do less than that when a child’s life hangs in the balance?
So its all very stressful. Cry me a river lady.
“20 binders of policies and procedures for everything.” Is that all?
I lost count a long time ago where I work.
“24 hour wait” Is that all? Our surgeons often have to get medical clearance, fill a gazillion forms, meet the patient more than once, review patient history, advise of risks and alternatives, schedule around cancellations and emergency add-ons..and you whine about waiting 24 hours.
“The information session” I know, isn’t it just so annoying that surgical patients of every type must be thoroughly informed? Good grief they have to look at their utlrasounds, x-rays, MRIs. I agree the demands and expectations in this area are beyond reason.
This physician actually has to meet with the patient, every single one.
Oh goodness, who ever came up with this concept? Patients actually meeting and speaking with their surgeons? What will they think of next? And having to talk to every single patient? Unthinkable! Are you also forced to review patient history and records? What a time consuming pain in the fanny that must be, not to mention a complete waste of time.
A pulse oximeter to monitor their vitals? A pulse oximeter doesn’t monitor vitals. You also need a cardiac monitor and automatic blood pressure cuff. I hope you also have a crash cart, ambu bag, emergency oxygen, and a staff trained in basic and advanced life support.
So having to meet the most basic standards of safe and quality patient care, the same standards surgeons in every other field must meet, is placing a huge burden on you and other abortion providers. Like I said, cry me a river lady.
“pain in the fanny” Yes,some women talk about how painful their abortion was. Does this abortionist tell the women just how painful it can be esp. when some of bowel is pulled out instead of the baby? :(
Some of their bowel is pulled out. Yikes!
One more question for the doctor. Is someone forcing you to provide abortions? Is it your option to simply say “no”?
If it is your choice to provide abortions, then spare us your whining.
I don’t recall anything that says they’re required to supply abortions unless that’s a law now.
Women are suffering from an unnecessary procedure because prochoicers/pro-abortionists have convinced them that willfully ending the life of a pre-born human is perfectly fine for any and no reason. Women think “I can’t!” When pro-lifers believe women are stronger and braver than “I can’t.”
Ps I am pregnant and I understand fear but you can’t let fear win or else you get stuck in it. As I said in another thread, it takes more guts to hope than it does to fear.
“That has been an incredible burden on women, and on us. I have to meet with every single patient….”
Somehow I don’t think the “incredible burden” has much to do with the actual physical process of meeting with each patient. That part just seems normal to me. The act of sharing ones expertise with patients is the main reason many doctors go into the medical field. This interaction may be instructive or joyful or tearful…it is a vital part of being a physician and a surgeon.
I think the real “burden” here is the psychological toll it takes on you, the abortionist. Having to see and speak with each abortive mother as if she were a whole person with a history and feelings and such before doing what it is you know you are going to do to her, and her child, the next day. The burden is the treat of possibly hearing some detail of a woman’s story that may haunt you. And it’s the potentiality of having to basically lie to the face of a woman that may ask certain questions. (Spinning the facts to successfully close the sale…and for her own good of course.) Gabrielle, I think that’s that part you find a burden.
It was so much easier on everybody when ones attention was turned away from the facts and truth and stuff…when everything was so cleanly anonymous and sterile.
These anti-choicers have just made it feel so dirty…and for no good reason. I feel like jumping up and down.
Then again it may be she is jumping up and down because the new regulations cut into her free time and profits…plain and simple.
Oh…poor thing !
SHE’S suffering ???!
Unless she repents..while she has a chance..
She has NO IDEA what “suffering” she will endure for all Eternity.
Pray for her.
This does not make sense, in economic terms.
This doc was making a living performing services other than abortion.
She saw a way to arrange her work life to make money by doing mostly abortions.
She could be jumping up-and-down mad about how there was not enough money in primary care to allow her to sustain that business, making abortion-business look good financially.
If the abortion business has dried up, she can get back to primary care, or plastic surgery, or whatever.
Or, she can raise her rates. If she charges $500 and is not happy, she can allow patients to choose a $600 price tag, or go elsewhere.
That is her option. She is in a wonderful position. Change to another area of professional practice, or raise prices. This is the real world of changing prices that all of us live in.
Sadly, she and other advocates get into the “human rights” aspect of it. This doc is big on human rights as long as she gets paid for it all.
BOO HOO!!
Maybe you should stop killing.
Babies are suffering at your hand before they die.
She saw a way to arrange her work life to make money by doing mostly abortions. – what she said is “Then I started getting referrals……Gradually, it just kind of took over my practice. Not only because of patient need….”
Babies are suffering at your hand before they die. – no, she only does abortions up to 22 weeks.
Reality,
Took over her practice? Please. The woman has the option to decide what patients she will see and what procedures she will or will not perform.
If she makes the decision to perform abortions, and it was ultimately her decision, then she should dispense with her whining.
The woman has the option to decide what patients she will see and what procedures she will or will not perform. – of course she does. Apparently clients seek her out more than she seeks out clients. She is seemingly meeting a strong need. And there’s nothing wrong with what she’s doing.
If she makes the decision to perform abortions, and it was ultimately her decision, then she should dispense with her whining. – why? She’s completely justified in complaining about needless TRAP laws, which have been introduced since she began providing abortion services.
Reality,
Then she should not say “it just kind of took over my practice”. She made the decision. Own it.
What she is required to do is no different than what your average physician is required to do, even when performing procedures in their offices.
She’s completely justified in complaining about needless TRAP laws, which have been introduced since she began providing abortion services.
So she shouldn’t have to meet the same standards as other physicians?
Ah, if only that were the intent.
TRAP laws – “a measure that singles out abortion providers for medically unnecessary regulations, standards,
personnel qualifications, building and/or structural requirements; a politically motivated provision that needlessly addresses the licensing of abortion clinics and/or charges an exorbitant fee to register a clinic in the state; or a measure that unnecessarily regulates where abortions may be provided or designates abortion
clinics as ambulatory surgical centers, outpatient care centers, or hospitals without medical justification.”
“Ambulatory surgical center (“ASC”) requirements mandate that abortion providers – including, in at least one state, those that provide only first-trimester medical or surgical abortions – be licensed as ASCs, which are sophisticated facilities designed for the performance of a range of out-patient surgeries. These requirements go far beyond the recommendations of the national health organizations in the field of abortion care”
Admitting privileges are demanded of abortion doctors even when some hospitals will only give those privileges if a minimum number of admissions per annum will be made.
You and I, and everyone else, know the intent of these laws was and never is about womens health. Their only intent is reducing abortion access.
Reality,
Please answer my question. Are you saying she shouldn’t have to meet the same standards other physicians have to meet? If these standards are not unreasonable for other physicians doing office procedures, why are they for her?
She should only have to meet the standards necessary for the assessed status of the procedure.
Why do legislators insist on admitting privileges knowing they in some instances they cannot be obtained without guarantees of a minimum number of admissions? Do those legislators want abortion clinics to make mistakes?
I am not required to view scans etc. before undergoing any procedure, why should women seeking abortion.
Reality,
The “assessed status of the procedure”? Please explain. Who assesses the status of the procedure? A source?
10:57
Realilty,
Doesn’t answer my question. Please tell me what exactly “assessed status of the procedure” means and who determines this. Also, a source would also be helpful.
As the federal district court in Wisconsin explained when blocking that state’s law, the “complete absence
of an admitting privileges requirement for [other outpatient surgical] procedures including those with
greater risk is certainly evidence that the . . . Legislature’s only purpose in its enactment was to restrict
the availability of safe, legal abortion.”
Reality,
Would you please give me a definition of “assessed status of the procedure” and who determines this?
Telling me why requiring admission privileges was overruled in Wisconsin does not answer the question.
The American Medical Association and the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists have said “there is simply no medical basis” for the TRAP law and that it “does not serve the health of women . . ., but instead jeopardizes women’s health by restricting access to abortion providers.”
http://www.acog.org/
go for a stroll, see for yourself
Reality,
You are giving me a lot of these quotes instead of simply answering my question. None of these makes any mention of or gives any definition of “assessed status of the procedure”. Would you please give me a definition of this term.
So in your opinion this AZ doctor should not have to meet and talk with each patient, does not need to discuss risks and alternatives and needs to know nothing of each patient’s medical history. She should just walk in operate and walk out. Also, you would say she does not need emergency equipment or staff trained to care for these patients.
As is completely obvious, the experts in the field – the members of ACOG – have determined that.
So in your opinion this AZ doctor should not have to meet and talk with each patient, does not need to discuss risks and alternatives and needs to know nothing of each patient’s medical history. She should just walk in operate and walk out. Also, you would say she does not need emergency equipment or staff trained to care for these patients. – I didn’t say any of that. What I said was abortion clinics are being forced to meet regulations that the relevant experts in that field have determined are excessive and are designed simply to make abortion access more difficult. You know it, I know it, and everybody else knows it.
Reality,
Have determined what?
So you agree it is not unreasonable for this abortion provider to have to meet with and talk with each of her patients, to discuss risks and alternatives, to review the patient’s medical history, to have emergency equipment and monitors, and to pay for qualified staff.
Exactly what she is whining about.
Mary, it’s important to remember that you can’t reason with the unreasonable.
Have determined what? – now you are simply being disingenuous. Did you peruse the ACOG site at all?
Exactly what she is whining about. – part of what she is whining about. And as ACOG say, other types of clinics with higher risks aren’t required to meet the same standards as abortion clinics.
It’s OK JDC, I’m prepared to put in the effort :-)
Reality,
I did. Please point out where it answers my question.
No Reality, what she’s whining about is the basic standard of care that you will get if you visit any doctor doing in office procedures, be it the foot doctor, plastic surgeon, or abortionist.
I did. Please point out where it answers my question. – these two statements are conflicting.
From the ACOG site I provided the link to –
“Health care providers face laws inappropriately unique to the provision of abortion that mandate procedures and counseling that are not evidence-based or ethical.”
“Facility and staffing requirements enacted in some states, under the guise of promoting patient safety, single out abortion from other outpatient procedures and impose medically unnecessary requirements designed to reduce access to abortion.”
what she’s whining about is the basic standard of care that you will get if you visit any doctor doing in office procedures, be it the foot doctor, plastic surgeon, or abortionist. – that is not an accurate statement.
“Colonoscopies, for example, have a much higher rate of complication, and are commonly performed in similar outpatient clinics. Yet those clinics and doctors are not submitted to these types of regulations, and the politicians pushing for TRAP laws are not calling for them to be. Rather, they have singled out only doctors who provide abortions.”
Reality,
A definition of “assessed status of the procedure” please. None of your responses or sources uses these words, much less gives a definition, and I would appreciate a definition of this term.
Reality, how many times must I point this out to you? It isn’t about TARP laws, it isn’t about procedures. Its about standards of patient care and safety that apply across the board.
Colonoscopies are done both in and outpatient facilities. The GI doctor meets with and talks with each patient, he reviews patient records, he reviews pertinent tests with the patient, the patient is advised of the risks, which include sedation. The patient is monitored, emergency equipment is available, staff trained and certified in the administration of sedating medications and assisting in colonoscopies are employed.
Kind of sounds like what that AZ abortionist was whining about, doesn’t it?
Assessed as less risky than other procedures, such as colonoscopies, yet expected to meet a greater range of requirements (you have been provided with ample clarity on the imbalance of the laws). I’m not a member of ACOG. They are the experts in that field. They have determined it. Repeatedly. They have determined that the status of the procedure does not warrant the demands being made. They also point out that those same demands are not being made of procedures of equal or even higher risk. My responses may not use the words you like but they clearly demonstrate that the relevant body has determined and declared that these laws are about limiting abortion access, nothing more.
Reality, how many times must I point this out to you? It isn’t about TARP laws, it isn’t about procedures. Its about standards of patient care and safety that apply across the board. – patently false. They do not apply ‘across the board’ as is pointed out by both ACOG and the AMA. It is all about limiting access to abortion. I place much more credence in what the experts in the relevant field have determined than in those with an anti-choice agenda.
Colonoscopies are done both in and outpatient facilities….sedating medications and assisting in colonoscopies are employed. Kind of sounds like what that AZ abortionist was whining about, doesn’t it? – no, it sounds like less. “Colonoscopies, for example, have a much higher rate of complication, and are commonly performed in similar outpatient clinics. Yet those clinics and doctors are not submitted to these types of regulations, and the politicians pushing for TRAP laws are not calling for them to be. Rather, they have singled out only doctors who provide abortions.”
If you really can’t understand what is meant by the assessed status of a procedure in regards to the appropriate level of rules and regs being applied then…..wow.
As far as I know, my proctologist did not fight tooth and nail to keep me from seeing the photo of what he would be removing from my colon.
Abortion doctors don’t fight tooth and nail to keep patients from seeing scans either. Was your proctologist required to force you to see it?
When I have procedures I often have all the meetings, explanations and other pre-op stuff with one doctor, or even a nurse, and the procedure carried out by another doctor.
Reality,
Thank you. Now did you make up that term because its the first I ever heard it and you couldn’t point it out in the literature. Also who makes this determination and might there be differences of opinion?
Anyway that aside, I will try yet once again to get across to you that there are standards of safety that apply across the board. Its got nothing to do with TARP, procedures, or “assessed status of the procedure”.
Whether you are having an office cosmetic procedure, your podiatrist is doing some minor office surgery on your foot, you’re having a colonoscopy, or an abortion, there are standards of patient safety that apply across the board. Got it so far? Good, I’ll proceed.
The physician speaks to the patient, discusses risks and alternatives, reviews patient history and records, reviews scans, x-rays, or other test results that may apply. After this is done the patient may have to make another appt. and return for the procedure. The surgeon will not necessarily do it the first day, he may want you to think it over, or just schedule a time when he can do it. Following me so far?? Good.
Now the patient has the procedure. The patient may get oral or IV sedation. The patient may have local anesthetic. The patient may have a combination. Monitoring is essential so that you do not wind up with a situation such as the very tragic case of Joan Rivers.
It is essential that qualified staff administer drugs and monitor the patient. It is also essential that emergency equipment is available and the staff trained and certified in basic and advanced life support. Often when I take these classes to be recertified, doctors, nurses, office staff, EMTs, dentists, podiatrists, are often taking them as well for the reasons I just gave you.
There, now I hope it registers with you.
Assessing the status of the procedure is what they did. They compared it to other procedures and found it did not warrant the rules and regs demanded. The experts have done the work and they have spoken. Your little dances of distraction do not change one iota the fact that abortion clinics are expected to meet requirements that other procedures of equal or greater risk are not. That is the point and it’s all that matters.
Whether you are having an office cosmetic procedure, your podiatrist is doing some minor office surgery on your foot, you’re having a colonoscopy, or an abortion, there are standards of patient safety that apply across the board. – repeating the same fallacy isn’t going to render it true Mary.
Got it so far? – yep, you ignore being pulled up on being wrong and then just repeat it. I’ve got that.
Good, I’ll proceed. – this oughta be good.
The physician speaks to the patient, discusses risks and alternatives, reviews patient history and records, reviews scans, x-rays, or other test results that may apply. After this is done the patient may have to make another appt. and return for the procedure. The surgeon will not necessarily do it the first day, he may want you to think it over, or just schedule a time when he can do it. Following me so far?? – what I’m following is that you still aren’t portraying the situation accurately. You are ignoring some of the differences and also the additional imposts on abortion clinics and doctors. So no, ‘Good’ it isn’t.
Now the patient has the procedure. The patient may get oral or IV sedation. The patient may have local anesthetic. The patient may have a combination. Monitoring is essential so that you do not wind up with a situation such as the very tragic case of Joan Rivers.
It is essential that qualified staff administer drugs and monitor the patient. It is also essential that emergency equipment is available and the staff trained and certified in basic and advanced life support. Often when I take these classes to be recertified, doctors, nurses, office staff, EMTs, dentists, podiatrists, are often taking them as well for the reasons I just gave you. – and? Still you selectively ignore the differences and the additional imposts on abortion facilities.
There, now I hope it registers with you. – what’s registering with me is your continued ignoring of the different and additional imposts on abortion facilities that the AMA and ACOG have explicitly identified as being unjustified, unwarranted and nothing more than an intention to limit access to abortion. When might that register with you.
Reality,
It is obvious you are appallingly ignorant of basic patient care standards, which is what this abortionist is whining about. They apply across the board, not just in certain situations.
Despite your constant denials, the facts are clear that abortion facilities are required to operate in a manner which other clinics of equal or higher risk are not asked to meet. ‘across the board’ is not as you claim. Nor is she is complaining only about basic patient care standards.
Reality,
As I said, you are appallingly ignorant of basic patient care standards.
Given my partner and I have both undergone abdominal surgery recently, I’m quite familiar with patient care standards. A few months back I underwent abdominal surgery at a day surgery clinic. I had meetings with a doctor and a nurse prior to the day of the procedure. None of the same people were there when I underwent the procedure. Why are abortion clinics not permitted to function in the same manner. Follow-up phone calls were from different people again. Oh, and part of my post-op instructions were to contact my own doctor or go to emergency if I had any problems.
‘Basic’ patient care standards isn’t the issue. The differentiation and additional demands made of abortion facilities above other clinics of equal or greater risk is. Your repeated and willful ignoring of this fact leaves you making the same false claim over and over.
Reality,
So you had “meetings” with a doctor and a nurse prior to your surgery and never met your surgeon? The nurse may not have been there. Many office nurses and nurse practitioners do not assist in surgery. The surgical staff would. Also, the doctor you met with may not have been there either. Its not unusual for GPs or internists to refer to a surgeon. He would however share your information with the surgeon and do your follow up care. He is working with your surgeon and will consult with him as needed for your care. The surgeon never introduced himself, talked to you, or discussed any questions you may have? You would have to sign a permit specifically giving him permission to operate. I find it odd that you would have no clue who is operating on you and would not insist on knowing.
Yes basic patient care standards are the issue. What is being expected of this AZ abortionist who is doing procedures in her office is not different that what is expected of the cosmetic surgeon or podiatrist who do procedures in their offices. They too have the added expense of medications, trained staff, recovery areas, and emergency equipment.
BTW, I had a minor office procedure done. A common cosmetic procedure that is about as low risk as it gets. Still I had to visit the surgeon, he discussed the procedure and risks and gave me an information booklet, then make another appointment for the procedure, I was hooked up to all the standard monitors, and stayed in the recovery area while a nurse checked on me. He also had to pay for qualified staff, which included RNs and surgical techs.
So you see Reality, the standards apply across the board.
I spoke with a surgeon and a theatre nurse. A different surgeon and theatre nurse conducted the procedure. Why doesn’t the same apply for abortions.
I find it odd that you would have no clue who is operating on you and would not insist on knowing. – that’s not what I said.
What is being expected of this AZ abortionist who is doing procedures in her office is not different that what is expected of the cosmetic surgeon or podiatrist who do procedures in their offices. – that simply isn’t the case.
the standards apply across the board – no matter how many times you repeat this fallacy it doesn’t come any closer to being true.
Reality,
What is a theatre nurse? So you did meet and speak with your surgeon and gave permission for HIM to operate on you? BTW are you talking about the United States or another country?
“This simply isn’t the case”. Yes Reality it is the case. These standards apply across the board.
The nurse I saw before the procedure was one who also works in theatre – not an office nurse as you postulated – but she wasn’t the one who was in theatre for the procedure. The surgeon who conducted the procedure introduced himself and had me sign the form as I was being wheeled into theatre. He wasn’t the surgeon I spoke with at pre-op. Why can’t abortion facilities also work this way.
These standards apply across the board. – that simply is not true, as attested to by the AMA and ACOG.
Reality,
By theatre do you mean operating room? Also, was this in the U.S. or another country?
Abortion facilities shouldn’t work this way because it is not safe practice. Unless its an emergency, you should meet and speak with your surgeon prior to even arriving at the hospital or clinic. Even in an emergency the surgeon will make every effort, as much as time and circumstances allow, to get what information he can from the patient or family. I know this from seeing my share of emergencies, including trauma.
“Theatre : (Surgery) Also called: operating theatre a room in a hospital or other medical centre equipped for surgical operations.”
I have travelled to the UK and a few other parts of Europe. That was quite some years ago, not recently. I never saw a doctor whilst there let alone undertook a procedure. Where was your procedure done, Sweden?
Shouldn’t work in which way? I spoke to a surgeon but not the one who ultimately did the procedure. Why can’t abortion facilities work this way? Why the greater demands than for some other procedures despite those other procedures being higher risk? Such as colonoscopies, as identified by ACOG.
Reality,
The circulating nurse, what I think you call a “theatre” nurse, CANNOT take the patient from their room or holding area until the permit is signed. She will be in very serious trouble if she does.
Permits being signed under the circumstances you describe would not be acceptable, and I wonder if this could cause legal problems.
Please point out where AMA and ACOG say these patient care standards do not apply.
Reality,
Well, I must admit “theatre” is a first for me. Though the old operating rooms were like theatres where spectators could watch surgery being performed.
My surgeries have all been in the states. Have yours?
What you describe is not acceptable practice in the states. Unless there is a reason another surgeon must do your surgery, the surgeon you meet and make arrangements with is the one who does it.
As I have pointed out, there are not greater demands on this AZ abortionist than there are on any other physicians in the US. She is not expected to meet standards they don’t have to and if she does, please point them out.
I was prepped in the prep area, the only room used once you’ve changed from street attire. I then met the surgeon (not the one I had the pre-op meeting with) who would be completing the procedure, signed the form and was wheeled into surgery. Why are abortion facilities not permitted to function this way?
– Please point out where AMA and ACOG say these patient care standards do not apply. – they don’t, I didn’t say they did. What I have said, and what you continue to ignore, is the differentiating and additional standards which are applied –
“Ambulatory surgical center (“ASC”) requirements mandate that abortion providers – including, in at least one state, those that provide only first-trimester medical or surgical abortions – be licensed as ASCs, which are sophisticated facilities designed for the performance of a range of out-patient surgeries. These requirements go far beyond the recommendations of the national health organizations in the field of abortion care”
“Colonoscopies, for example, have a much higher rate of complication, and are commonly performed in similar outpatient clinics. Yet those clinics and doctors are not submitted to these types of regulations, and the politicians pushing for TRAP laws are not calling for them to be. Rather, they have singled out only doctors who provide abortions.”
There, now I hope it registers with you.
Well, I must admit “theatre” is a first for me. – not a watcher of old movies eh.
Though the old operating rooms were like theatres where spectators could watch surgery being performed. – indeed.
My surgeries have all been in the states. Have yours? – not all of the states, just two of them :-)
What you describe is not acceptable practice in the states. Unless there is a reason another surgeon must do your surgery, the surgeon you meet and make arrangements with is the one who does it. – nope.
As I have pointed out, there are not greater demands on this AZ abortionist than there are on any other physicians in the US. – as I have demonstrated, that simply is not true.
She is not expected to meet standards they don’t have to and if she does, please point them out. – she does and I have.
Reality,
I already told you why abortion facilities can’t function this way..its not an acceptable standard of care. You still haven’t told me if you had your surgery in the states.
So the basic standard of care I have been discussing is not opposed by the AMA or ACOG? Interesting.
Again I’m not talking about ASC requirements and never was. For the umpteenth time I am talking about basic standards of patient care, whatever the facility.
Reality,
Oh I’m a great fan of old movies, especially old medical movies. Young Dr. Kildare was one of my favorites. My sister was a student nurse at an old dinosaur of a hospital. Fascinating building. I’m very nostalgic. But I have still never heard operating rooms called “theatres”.
I assumed you wouldn’t have them in every state. Was the surgery you refer to performed in the US?
Uh yes Reality. The surgeon you meet and makes the arrangements with and under who’s care you are admitted to the hospital is the one responsible for your surgery. We’ve had surgeons cancel their entire schedules because of illness or emergency. Another surgeon didn’t operate for them and would’t.
Please point out the standards of patient care she must meet that other physicians do not.
I already told you why abortion facilities can’t function this way..its not an acceptable standard of care. – no, you haven’t told me why abortion facilities are required to function in a way which is not required of facilities which conduct procedures of equal or greater risk than abortion.
You still haven’t told me if you had your surgery in the states. – “not all of the states, just two of them” – is that too complex for you?
So the basic standard of care I have been discussing is not opposed by the AMA or ACOG? Interesting. – not very. What I have said over and over again, and provided the AMA and ACOG concurrence with, is that it is the differentiating and additional requirements which are the issue – when might that register with you?
Again I’m not talking about ASC requirements and never was. For the umpteenth time I am talking about basic standards of patient care, whatever the facility. – and as you well know, what I have been talking about all along is the differentiating and additions requirements unjustifiably placed on abortion facilities. Not basic standards.
Please point out the standards of patient care she must meet that other physicians do no. – I have done so umpteen times. I even provided a link.
The AMA and ACOG have both clearly stated that abortion clinics are being required to meet standards which clinics of equal or higher risk are not required to meet – does that register with you.
Reality,
Again, I am talking about basic standards of patient care, not the facility itself. Whether its the doctor’s office, an ASC, a hospital.
I will gather from your non answer the surgery you refer to was not done in the states. If it was, certain standards of patient care were violated. I can’t answer for what happens in other countries.
No you discussed facilities, which was not what she was complaining about in the post. Where does she say anything about the requirements for facilities? I’ve never discussed anything but standards of patient care, which should apply across the board.
Where does the AMA and ACOG say anything about the standards of patient care not applying to abortion patients? They are refering to clinic regulations, which is not what is being discussed in the post.
[…] Jehoshaphat adds a detail that we missed in our recent post about Arizona abortionist Gabrielle Goodrick – the fact that Goodrick is on probation for […]
Again, I am talking about basic standards of patient care, not the facility itself. Whether its the doctor’s office, an ASC, a hospital. – ok, so you agree that while the basic standards may be the same, abortion facilities are required to meet regs that other clinics conducting procedures of equal or greater risk are not, as determined by the relevant groups such as the AMA and ACOG.
I will gather from your non answer the surgery you refer to was not done in the states. If it was, certain standards of patient care were violated. I can’t answer for what happens in other countries. – what tosh.
No you discussed facilities, which was not what she was complaining about in the post. Where does she say anything about the requirements for facilities? – I said the requirements placed on abortion facilities. That is not limited to the infrastructure. They facilitate terminations. That includes how they function.
I’ve never discussed anything but standards of patient care, which should apply across the board. – basic ones might, but there’s a whole lot more depending on what procedures are carried out. So you quite conveniently ignore the fact that abortion facilities have imposts not imposed on facilities of equal or greater risk.
Where does the AMA and ACOG say anything about the standards of patient care not applying to abortion patients? They are refering to clinic regulations, which is not what is being discussed in the post. – how selective of you.
Reality,
I don’t agree about anything concerning the facilities as the was never the subject under discussion. Just the basic standard patient care.
How they function? So you don’t think the basic standards of patient care apply to abortion patients?
What does this AZ abortionist have to do that other physicians don’t?
So tell me, where does the AMA or ACOG say anything about the standards of patient care not applying to abortion patients?
‘Facilities’ includes more than just the building. As I have told you.
How they function? So you don’t think the basic standards of patient care apply to abortion patients? – and for about the gazillionth time, she is required to meet standards that clinics performing procedures of equal or greater risk aren’t.
So tell me, where does the AMA or ACOG say anything about the standards of patient care not applying to abortion patients? – how slightly less than perfectly evasive of you. The AMA and ACOG speak of the requirements abortion clinics must meet that other clinics do not.
It is unequivocal that abortion clinics are required to meet standards that clinics performing procedures of equal or higher risk are not. The sole intent of this is to restrict abortion access. It has nothing to do with womens safety.
Reality,
Basic standards of patient care apply across the board, facilities are not the point and never were.
You haven’t told me the standards she has to meet that other physicians do not.
So the AMA and ACOG would agree that she should meet the basic standards of patient care, which is what she is whining about. Please point out where she specifically complains about facility requirements.
Not the point at all Reality. Just a physician who has to meet the same standards every other physician must meet, whether in a clinic, office, outpatient clinic, or hospital.
Basic standards of patient care apply across the board, facilities are not the point and never were. – perhaps its time you read the full article.
You haven’t told me the standards she has to meet that other physicians do not. – “the ultrasound that has to be printed, she has to see it….” and more in the full article.
So the AMA and ACOG would agree that she should meet the basic standards of patient care, which is what she is whining about. – that is not correct.
Please point out where she specifically complains about facility requirements. – a facility is not just a building.
Not the point at all Reality. Just a physician who has to meet the same standards every other physician must meet, whether in a clinic, office, outpatient clinic, or hospital. – that is fundamentally and quite obviously not the case.
Reality,
LOLL. She is finally subjected to licensing and state inspections? So is my veterinarian and beautician. Why would she have a problem with this? My vet and beautician don’t. I would think the same standards that apply to the family dog should apply to a woman, don’t you agree?
The ultrasound, the patient has to see it? Oh my. We are required to show patients x-rays and thoroughly explain what is going on and what the surgical procedure involves. We show parents x-rays of their children’s injuries so as to better inform them of what is necessary and why. If we withhold any information, we could face legal issues. Please point out what other requirements she must meet that other physicians do not.
Not correct? So the AMA and ACOG don’t think basic standards of patient care should apply to abortion patients. Which is it Reality?
Again, please point out where she specifically complains about facility requirements.
LOLL. She is finally subjected to licensing and state inspections? So is my veterinarian and beautician. Why would she have a problem with this? My vet and beautician don’t. – for the gazillionth plus one time, she is required to meet standards that clinics conducting other procedures of equal or greater risk are not.
I would think the same standards that apply to the family dog should apply to a woman, don’t you agree? – not at all. I think higher standards should apply to a woman than to the family dog. Why don’t you?
The ultrasound, the patient has to see it? Oh my. We are required to show patients x-rays and thoroughly explain what is going on and what the surgical procedure involves. – if I don’t want to view my x-rays or scans I am not forced to.
Not correct? So the AMA and ACOG don’t think basic standards of patient care should apply to abortion patients. Which is it Reality? – LOL. So the AMA and ACOG would agree that she should meet the basic standards of patient care, which is what she is whining about. – “that is not correct.” – try again.
Again, please point out where she specifically complains about facility requirements. – again, read the full article.
Reality,
I read the article and she is also whining about licensing and state inspections. That’s a standard that must be met by every medical facility, and even your barber, at least if he is in the states.
Well, then if you think higher standards should apply for women, then you have no objections to licensing and state regulation, right?
To protect himself legally, the doctor, while not forcing you, will strongly encourage you to do so. How else do you make an informed decision without all the facts in front of you?
You try again. Does ACOG and AMA agree that the basic standards of patient care apply to abortion patients, yes or no.
I read the full article. She mainly seems put out by state inspections. Tough. No one likes them.
Also, what standards must she abide by that no other physicians must? Please be specific.
I read the article and she is also whining about licensing and state inspections. That’s a standard that must be met by every medical facility, and even your barber, at least if he is in the states. – “also”, finally a glimmer of recognition.
Well, then if you think higher standards should apply for women, – I do. How come you don’t?
then you have no objections to licensing and state regulation, right? – what I object to is the standards demanded which aren’t demanded of other clinics of equal or greater risk.
To protect himself legally, the doctor, while not forcing you, will strongly encourage you to do so. – but not force.
How else do you make an informed decision without all the facts in front of you? – I listen to the doctor. Do you think every patient fully understands what is visible on all x-rays and scans?
You try again. Does ACOG and AMA agree that the basic standards of patient care apply to abortion patients, yes or no. – you asked a loaded question. It was the loading which drew my response.
Reality,
I think higher standards do apply to women, that’s why I strongly support licensing and state inspections as I am sure you do as well.
Well, if you refuse to view the information with him, he may refuse to do your surgery. He doesn’t want you coming back at him saying you would have made a different decision concerning surgery if you had been given all the information. It protects him legally, as well as thoroughly informs and protects you.
Listen to the doctor? He will need to protect himself legally. If you say you were never shown your x-rays or test results, and you could deny you refused to see them, it could cause problems for the doctor. For your sake as well as his, he will want you to see everything. Also, parents will be shown x-rays, MRIs, etc. Again, the doctor is covering himself legally.
Ok, the last question is very straight forward. Please answer yes or no.
I ask again. What standards must she abide by that other physicians do not. Please be specific.
I think higher standards do apply to women, that’s why I strongly support licensing and state inspections as I am sure you do as well. – then why did you say that you think the same standards should apply to women as apply to the family dog.
Well, if you refuse to view the information with him, he may refuse to do your surgery. He doesn’t want you coming back at him saying you would have made a different decision concerning surgery if you had been given all the information. It protects him legally, as well as thoroughly informs and protects you. – that’d be incorporated in that whole patient consent form thing now wouldn’t it.
Listen to the doctor? He will need to protect himself legally. If you say you were never shown your x-rays or test results, and you could deny you refused to see them, it could cause problems for the doctor. For your sake as well as his, he will want you to see everything. Also, parents will be shown x-rays, MRIs, etc. Again, the doctor is covering himself legally. – most people can’t make heads nor tails of scans or MRI’s. They listen to what the doctor tells them the scan shows and what it means.
Ok, the last question is very straight forward. – no, it was loaded.
Please answer yes or no. – once you’ve removed the loading.
I ask again. What standards must she abide by that other physicians do not. Please be specific. – so you still haven’t read the full article.
Reality,
I meant to point out that we are more concerned with protecting our family pets than we are women. I think at very least women are entitled to the same protection….licensing and state inspections, that we give our family pets. Apparently this AZ abortionist doesn’t agree.
Not necessarily. Patients may sign consents then claim they were coerced or not thoroughly informed.
That’s why the doctor reviews and explains the results to you.
I see you have no answer for the question about the AMA and ACOG.
I read the article and don’t see what standards she has to abide by that other doctors do not. Please point them out.
I meant to point out that we are more concerned with protecting our family pets than we are women. – you might be, I’m not.
I think at very least women are entitled to the same protection….licensing and state inspections, that we give our family pets. – I think it should be more myself. Why don’t you?
Apparently this AZ abortionist doesn’t agree. – I dare say she agrees with me that women should be entitled to better protections than the family pet.
Not necessarily. Patients may sign consents then claim they were coerced or not thoroughly informed. – that’d be an inadequate consent form then.
That’s why the doctor reviews and explains the results to you. – that’s what I said.
I see you have no answer for the question about the AMA and ACOG. – I did give an answer. You didn’t like it. I said that if you wanted a clearer answer you’ll need to ask a clearer question – minus the loading you put into it.
I read the article and don’t see what standards she has to abide by that other doctors do not. Please point them out. – then you cannot have read it properly.
How many times do I have to give you the answers to your questions only to have you utterly ignore them or distort them and then ask the same questions again?
Reality,
Well since we agree women should be protected, then there should be no objection to licensing and state inspection. You have no objection, right?
No, its not an inadequate form. But people can claim anything and find a good lawyer to back them up. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. That’s why the physician will cover everything…including informing you of tests, x-rays, and MRIs. You refuse to be informed, he can refuse to operate.
Indeed you did say that. I’m glad we agree on the importance of the doctor’s explanation so the patient will be adequately informed and make the right decision.
I see you still have no answers for the last two questions.
Well since we agree women should be protected, then there should be no objection to licensing and state inspection. You have no objection, right? – which licensing and inspection requirements? Veterinarian, beautician, barber, proctologist or abortion clinics? Why are they more severe and demanding for abortions than colonoscopies?
No, its not an inadequate form. But people can claim anything and find a good lawyer to back them up. I’ve seen it happen plenty of times. That’s why the physician will cover everything…including informing you of tests, x-rays, and MRIs. – “informing you”, not forcing you to look at a scan.
You refuse to be informed, he can refuse to operate. – of course. I wasn’t talking about refusing to be informed.
I see you still have no answers for the last two questions. – I gave an answer to the first question you are referring to but since you had loaded the question you misinterpreted the answer. The answer to your second question has been supplied, you just refuse to acknowledge it.
Reality,
You know perfectly well what licensing and state inspection requirements I am talking about. Since we agree women should be protected, then you support the licensing and state inspection of abortion clinics, right?
Informing you involves review of the scan. If you refuse to be informed, and that involves reviewing tests, scans, x-rays, and MRIs, the doctor has the option to refuse to operate.
I see you still have no answers for my last two questions.
You know perfectly well what licensing and state inspection requirements I am talking about. – no. You have not specified these at any stage.
Since we agree women should be protected, then you support the licensing and state inspection of abortion clinics, right? – which licensing and inspection requirements? Veterinarian, beautician, barber, proctologist or abortion clinics? Why are they more severe and demanding for abortions than colonoscopies?
Informing you involves review of the scan. If you refuse to be informed, and that involves reviewing tests, scans, x-rays, and MRIs, the doctor has the option to refuse to operate. – yep, the doctor can review them all they want. Then the doctor can inform me of what they show and what needs to be done. I am more than happy to be informed.
I see you still have no answers for my last two questions. – I gave an answer to the first question you are referring to but since you had loaded the question you misinterpreted the answer. The answer to your second question has been supplied, you just refuse to acknowledge it.
How many times do I have to give you the answers to your questions only to have you utterly ignore them or distort them and then ask the same questions again?
Reality,
The licensing and inspection required for medical facilities, be they outpatient surgery, hospitals, or medical offices. I would think that would be obvious but apparently not for you.
You haven’t shown me how the requirements are more severe and demanding.
I’m glad we agree the patient, whatever the procedure, should be thoroughly informed, and this includes review of scans, x-rays, test result, etc.
Still can’t answer those last two questions I see.
The licensing and inspection required for medical facilities, be they outpatient surgery, hospitals, or medical offices. I would think that would be obvious but apparently not for you. – oh tut tut, what’s obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the fundamental truth that more is asked of abortion clinics than other clinics performing procedures of equal or greater risk.
You haven’t shown me how the requirements are more severe and demanding. – the AMA and ACOG have done that for us.
I’m glad we agree the patient, whatever the procedure, should be thoroughly informed, and this includes review of scans, x-rays, test result, etc. – well it is nice to see you’ve moderated your language on this one.
Still can’t answer those last two questions I see. – is it that you can’t discern the answers? Or do you not understand them? Or have you still not read the full article?
Reality,
So you do not want to see abortion clinics licensed and subject to state inspection like all other medical facilities?
Please back up your claim that the requirements are more severe and demanding for abortion clinics.
I haven’t moderated it at all. I’m glad we agree that patients should see all test results, including scans, x-rays, ultrasounds, and MRIs so as to make an informed choice.
Still waiting for answers to the last two questions.
So you do not want to see abortion clinics licensed and subject to state inspection like all other medical facilities? – yes I do. So why isn’t it so.
Please back up your claim that the requirements are more severe and demanding for abortion clinics. – the AMA and ACOG have done that for us.
I haven’t moderated it at all. I’m glad we agree that patients should see all test results, including scans, x-rays, ultrasounds, and MRIs so as to make an informed choice. – yes you have. You’ve gone from enforced viewing to ‘reviewing’ and ‘informing’. If one cannot give consent to a procedure without physically viewing x-rays or scans, does that mean blind folk cannot have procedures done?
Still waiting for answers to the last two questions. – since you have indeed been provided with answers – and decided not to respond to my request that you ‘de-load’ the first of them – is it that you can’t discern the answers? Or do you not understand them? Or have you still not read the full article?
Reality,
So we agree abortion clinics should licensed and subject to state inspection.
Please quote the AMA and ACOG concerning the more severe requirements.
One could argue that a doctor refusing to perform your surgery if you will not view all your test results is “forcing”. Blind folks could possibly be the exception, maybe deaf too, but you would certainly make every effort to assist these individuals in being as well informed as they have the physical ability to be.
I haven’t been provided the answers to my last two questions. I can only conclude you do not have them.
So we agree abortion clinics should licensed and subject to state inspection. – we do Mary. Yet you refuse to respond to why abortion clinics should meet standards that clinics undertaking work of equal or greater risk don’t. Now why would that be?
Please quote the AMA and ACOG concerning the more severe requirements. – I provided the links. I also provided quotes from them. How you could fail to see them is beyond me.
One could argue that a doctor refusing to perform your surgery if you will not view all your test results is “forcing”. – we can ‘listen’ to our test results. The doctor can let us know what they are. Especially given many folk wouldn’t know which way up the scan they are looking at is.
Blind folks could possibly be the exception, maybe deaf too, but you would certainly make every effort to assist these individuals in being as well informed as they have the physical ability to be. – deaf people can’t see?!?
I haven’t been provided the answers to my last two questions. – you most certainly have. I can only conclude that you didn’t understand them. But maybe if you even tried to respond re ‘de-loading’ the first of them you’d find yourself on the track to understanding that answer.
Reality,
Glad we agree this is not an unreasonable expectation. As for facility and clinic regulations, that is another subject matter, not what this thread was about.
The AMA and ACOG links said nothing about the basic standards of patient care. That is what this discussion has been about.
A doctor cannot take the patronizing view that a patient is just too ignorant to figure anything out. Test results, etc. must be explained to the best of the patient’s ability to understand them.
Deaf people would require a specially trained sign language medical translator, which the doctor should insist on.
I will just have to conclude you have no answers to the questions I asked.
Glad we agree this is not an unreasonable expectation. – now now. We agree that it shouldn’t be an unreasonable expectation. So why do abortion clinics have greater demands placed on them than clinics with equally or greater risk procedures?
As for facility and clinic regulations, that is another subject matter, not what this thread was about. The AMA and ACOG links said nothing about the basic standards of patient care. That is what this discussion has been about. – no, that’s what you decided you’d like it to only be about once you realized that demands made of abortion clinics are indefensible.
A doctor cannot take the patronizing view that a patient is just too ignorant to figure anything out. – I didn’t suggest such.
Test results, etc. must be explained to the best of the patient’s ability to understand them. – that is what I said.
Deaf people would require a specially trained sign language medical translator, which the doctor should insist on. – some written information might be useful too.
I will just have to conclude you have no answers to the questions I asked. – then I shall just have to conclude that you are either being disingenuous or have failed to understand – particularly since you responded to my answer to the first of those questions. And I still wonder why you seem unable to even address the fact that the first question was loaded. Why is that?
Reality,
We agree that abortion clinics, like other medical facilities, should be subject to licensing and state inspection. Not an unreasonable expectation.
No Reality, it was what the thread was about. The basic standards of patient care.
I’m glad we agree on providing accurate and thorough information.
True, but for legal purposes, a sign language translator trained in medical terminology is the safest and best way for both doctor and patient.
Still no answers to my questions.
We agree that abortion clinics, like other medical facilities, should be subject to licensing and state inspection. Not an unreasonable expectation. – as long as they are equivalent, that’d be nice.
No Reality, it was what the thread was about. The basic standards of patient care. – indeed not.
I’m glad we agree on providing accurate and thorough information. – I’m glad you have moved on this point.
True, but for legal purposes, a sign language translator trained in medical terminology is the safest and best way for both doctor and patient. – probably.
Still no answers to my questions. –
Mary Jan 18th 6:47pm – “So the AMA and ACOG would agree that she should meet the basic standards of patient care, which is what she is whining about.”
to which I responded – “not correct”
to which you responded – “Not correct? So the AMA and ACOG don’t think basic standards of patient care should apply to abortion patients. Which is it Reality?”
to which I responded with “that is not correct” – because your initial question was loaded.
Your second question has been unequivocally answered.