Bishops: No more Mr. Nice Guys
In a follow-up to my post yesterday comes this from the Associated Press, November 11:
The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration over its support for abortion rights, saying the church and religious freedom could be under attack in the new presidential administration.
In an impassioned discussion on Catholics in public life, several bishops said they would accept no compromise on abortion policy. Many condemned Catholics who had argued it was morally acceptable to back President-elect Obama because he pledged to reduce abortion rates.
And several prelates promised to call out Catholic policy makers on their failures to follow church teaching….
Chicago Cardinal Francis George, president of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, is preparing a statement during the bishops’ fall meeting that will press Obama on abortion….
The bishops suggested that the final document include the message that “aggressively pro-abortion policies” would be viewed “as an attack on the church.”
Along with their theological opposition to the procedure, church leaders say they worry that any expansion in abortion rights could require Catholic hospitals to perform abortions or lose federal funding. Auxiliary Bishop Thomas Paprocki of Chicago said the hospitals would close rather than comply.
Bravo. Love the tough talk. No more Mr. Nice Guys, since the Obama administration clearly plans to pin their backs against the wall.
What does the opposition say? According to Fox…
Catholics United was among the groups that argued in direct mail and TV ads during the campaign that taking the “pro-life” position means more than opposing abortion rights.
Chris Korzen, the group’s executive director, said, “we honestly want to move past the deadlock” on abortion. He said church leaders were making that task harder.
“What are the bishops going to do now?” Korzen said. “`They have burned a lot of bridges with the Democrats and the new administration.”
Of course being pro-life means more than opposing abortion, but hello, when 1.2-1.6 MILLION babies are being killed ANNUALLY by abortion in the U.S., how can it not take center stage?!
Korzen doesn’t get it. We will NEVER move past the “deadlock” (pardon the pun?) on abortion. NEVER.
And Korzen has a lot of nerve. Liberals like him are trying to thwart his Church’s teaching, to force Catholic doctors and hospitals to abort, for instance, and he accuses the bishops of burning bridges? He struck the match, and he should know it isn’t only bridges that will burn. His own soul is in danger of same.
[HT: , moderator Carder and reader Dean T.; photo of bishops courtesy of Catholic News Agency]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Nope. Chris Korzen just doesn’t get it. And BTW, where is HIS bishop on this? Has Mr. Korzen’s Bishop spoken with him about supporting a proabort politician.
Yes, because with enough social programs, you can eliminate punishments.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_uekedCt0yLs/SOzWLs5-SOI/AAAAAAAAARs/v6xHJUdz5lw/s1600-h/punishment-obama.jpg
I love Cardinal George’s quote from yesterday. “If the Supreme Court’s Dred Scott decision, that African Americans were other people’s property and somehow less than persons, were still settled constitutional law, Mr. Obama would not be President of the United States. Today, as was the case a hundred and fifty years ago, common ground cannot be found by destroying the common good.” (http://ncrcafe.org/node/2261)
If those two lines don’t destroy his “Catholic” promoters’ house of cards…
“…it isn’t only bridges that will burn. His own soul is in danger of same”
==========================================
Hmmm..so true, so true….
Michael, 1:20p: Great quote. Didn’t read that one.
What I dont get is why protestant churches for the most part aren’t saying anything.
Every true Christian should be outraged at the incoming administration’s abortion policies.
Jill – my guess is that the expanding Planned Parenthood mega-clinics may be a hospital seed in disguise.
Certainly would be what I would do If I planned on putting others out of business.
Looks like Obama wants to bully his opposition. Wonder if he forgot we still have a supreme court? Looks like the younger and healthier on the supreme court are not the pro deathers he may replace. Too bad. Also the court has still allowed states to make laws. Obama may lose with the court.
The Bishops have spoken…
STATEMENT of the President of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
“If the Lord does not build the house, in vain do its builders labor; if the Lord does not watch over the city, in vain does the watchman keep vigil.” (Psalm 127, vs. 1)
The Bishops of the Catholic Church in the United States welcome this moment of historic transition and look forward to working with President-elect Obama and the members of the new Congress for the common good of all. Because of the Church’s history and the scope of her ministries in this country, we want to continue our work for economic justice and opportunity for all; our efforts to reform laws around immigration and the situation of the undocumented; our provision of better education and adequate health care for all, especially for women and children; our desire to safeguard religious freedom and foster peace at home and abroad. The Church is intent on doing good and will continue to cooperate gladly with the government and all others working for these goods.
The fundamental good is life itself, a gift from God and our parents. A good state protects the lives of all. Legal protection for those members of the human family waiting to be born in this country was removed when the Supreme Court decided Roe vs. Wade in 1973. This was bad law. The danger the Bishops see at this moment is that a bad court decision will be enshrined in bad legislation that is more radical than the 1973 Supreme Court decision itself.
In the last Congress, a Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA) was introduced that would, if brought forward in the same form today, outlaw any “interference” in providing abortion at will. It would deprive the American people in all fifty states of the freedom they now have to enact modest restraints and regulations on the abortion industry. FOCA would coerce all Americans into subsidizing and promoting abortion with their tax dollars. It would counteract any and all sincere efforts by government and others of good will to reduce the number of abortions in our country.
Parental notification and informed consent precautions would be outlawed, as would be laws banning procedures such as partial-birth abortion and protecting infants born alive after a failed abortion. Abortion clinics would be deregulated. The Hyde Amendment restricting the federal funding of abortions would be abrogated. FOCA would have lethal consequences for prenatal human life.
FOCA would have an equally destructive effect on the freedom of conscience of doctors, nurses and health care workers whose personal convictions do not permit them to cooperate in the private killing of unborn children. It would threaten Catholic health care institutions and Catholic Charities. It would be an evil law that would further divide our country, and the Church should be intent on opposing evil.
On this issue, the legal protection of the unborn, the bishops are of one mind with Catholics and others of good will. They are also pastors who have listened to women whose lives have been diminished because they believed they had no choice but to abort a baby. Abortion is a medical procedure that kills, and the psychological and spiritual consequences are written in the sorrow and depression of many women and men. The bishops are single-minded because they are, first of all, single-hearted.
The recent election was principally decided out of concern for the economy, for the loss of jobs and homes and financial security for families, here and around the world. If the election is misinterpreted ideologically as a referendum on abortion, the unity desired by President-elect Obama and all Americans at this moment of crisis will be impossible to achieve. Abortion kills not only unborn children; it destroys constitutional order and the common good, which is assured only when the life of every human being is legally protected. Aggressively pro-abortion policies, legislation and executive orders will permanently alienate tens of millions of Americans, and would be seen by many as an attack on the free exercise of their religion.
This statement is written at the request and direction of all the Bishops, who also want to thank all those in politics who work with good will to protect the lives of the most vulnerable among us. Those in public life do so, sometimes, at the cost of great sacrifice to themselves and their families; and we are grateful. We express again our great desire to work with all those who cherish the common good of our nation. The common good is not the sum total of individual desires and interests; it is achieved in the working out of a common life based upon good reason and good will for all.
Our prayers accompany President-elect Obama and his family and those who are cooperating with him to assure a smooth transition in government. Many issues demand immediate attention on the part of our elected “watchman.” (Psalm 127) May God bless him and our country.
Two new, beautiful blessings approved by the Catholic Bishops:
The “Blessing of a Child in the Womb,” was “prepared to support parents awaiting the birth of their child, to encourage in the parish prayers for and recognition of the gift of the child in the womb and to foster respect for human life within society,” according to a USCCB release.
The blessing reads:
“May almighty God, who has created new life now bless the child in your womb. The Lord has brought you the joy of motherhood: may he now bless you with a safe and healthy pregnancy. You thank the Lord today for the gift of your child: may he bring you and your child one day to share in the unending joys of heaven.”
There is also an optional blessing for parish communities welcoming a newborn:
“May God bless this parish community as it welcomes the gift of new life and joyfully accepts the responsibility of sharing in the spiritual formation of this child (or children).”
Chris Korzen, the group’s executive director, said, “we honestly want to move past the deadlock” on abortion. He said church leaders were making that task harder.
Apparently Mr. Korzen believes he, as leader of “Catholics United”, outranks that of the Catholic Bishops. The only “deadlock on abortion” is the one that he and his ilk have created in their own minds. It’s time to wake up and smell the coffee, Mr. Korzen. There is no such thing as Catholic-Right and Catholic-Left, only CATHOLIC.
Correction.
“outranks that of the”
should read
“outranks the”
yvonne @ 1:55,
Could you please post a link to the USCCB’s statement that you posted? Thank you.
Jill,
JOIN THE FIGHT!!!!
http://www.obamacrimes.com
http://americamustknow.com/
http://www.obamacrimes.com
January 20, 2009 – McCain and Palin are sworn into office.
They can forcefully confront when they have moral grounds on which to launch the confrontation. Right now all they have is a lot of hot air and bombast but very little in solutions. Additionally, especially in light of the election results as they pertain to the catholic electorate, the political capital of the church is negligible. They were so invested in the bush regime that anything they say to most democrats will be taken with a block of salt. They are the boys who cry wolf about kittens.
link to usccb stmt
http://www.usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-174.shtml
James,
I hate to burst your bubble but IF for some reason this lawsuit continues and Obama looses (which he won’t, since HE HAS A VALID BIRTH CERTIFICATE), it isn’t McCain who will be President, it’s Biden.
Caps are for emphasis.
“The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration over its support for abortion rights, saying the church and religious freedom could be under attack in the new presidential administration.”
It’s too late, we needed this before the election, not after.
HHUUUUURRRRAAAAAAAAHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! You go Bishops! God bless them and strenghthen them to lead us well in the battles ahead!!!
Idle talk. This from Francis George, a man how has drawn a line in the sand and then erased it over and over with Mike Pfleger. A man who promised that the child rapist on the archdiocese’s payroll and living in house part-timewouldn’t be coming back to to Chicago – 5 years later, he’s still on the payroll. The man who promoted another rapist to head of the deanery AFTER he had been arrested; following that promotion, the monster raped a child daily until the arrest that eventually got him prison time. The man who wrote multiple letters trying to get another rapist released from prison. The man who, in his “confrontation” of Obama, can’t help but devote THREE PARAGRAPHS to how great it is that we elected a black guy.Believe and trust Francis George? Not in a New York minute. We need REAL leaders like Frank Pavone and Jill Stanek is this fight – not charlatans who coddle child rapists and have zero credibility on anything.
“The nation’s Roman Catholic bishops vowed Tuesday to forcefully confront the Obama administration over its support for abortion rights, saying the church and religious freedom could be under attack in the new presidential administration.”
It’s too late, we needed this before the election, not after.
Posted by: Jasper at November 12, 2008 3:21 PM
actually they are about 35 years too late….
“And several prelates promised to call out Catholic policy makers on their failures to follow church teaching….”
And let’s not forget Doug Kmiec, a Catholic, who led not only Catholics away from the pro-life vote, but many Protestants, as well.
The Catholic Church has now been given an opportunity to be the church it was called to be.
I strongly urge all priests start studying their Bibles in earnest and proclaim the word of God forcefully against the gates of hell or simply go home.
KK,
What’s done is done. Our priests are no more perfect than we are perfect. We are blessed that the Bishops are uniting in this effort and they deserve to be treated charitably.
HisMan,
This bothers me – I can’t see the Protestant leaders being vocal in a way that the Catholic Bishops can because the Protestants are divided into small factions. They don’t have the accountability to a hierarchy like the Catholics do. Who is going to take the lead for Protestants in the pro-life movement?
Janet –
That sounds like an ex-girlfriend of mine who, when she broke up with me by informing me that she had been two-timing me for quite a while and I responded quite negatively, accused me of “bringing up the past”. This guy is a criminal who is STILL harboring a rapist in his home and continuing the five year lie. It’s not done. He’s evil. Evil people don’t have moral authority. If the very sight of him turns MY stomach, he’s certainly not going to get any kind of positive reaction out of someone NOT inclined to agree with him on the sanctity of pre-born life. Hell – he has proven that he has no respect for 8 and 9 year old children. I’d much rather have a spokesperson with some level of moral authority.
Janet: I think there are many mainstream Protestant churches which support abortion. I could be wrong on this, maybe someone can enlighten me on the various demoninations positions.
I’d love to know where there are protestant congregations that are spirit-filled, bible-teaching, and vocal on protecting the unborn. I grew up Catholic, 16 years of Catholic education, and then spent 13 years as a Methodist (including youth director) before returning to the Catholic church to get married (shhhhhhh). I’m VERY unhappy in the catholic church. They claim to be pro-life, but Pfleger gets to have Sharpton and Belafonte actually bash the president over being pro-life from the pulpit; they fund abortion referral services through the Catholic Campaign for Human Development and the Al Smith Foundation; they failed to be courageous enough to risk their tax-exempt status by preaching truth; and they continue to commit horrible crimes against children at the highest levels (yes – obstructing justice is a crime), then claim the absolute authority of Christ himself. I have realtives who won’t talk to me because I refer to Vincent McCaffrey as “that scum child rapist” and not as “Fr. McCaffrey” and because I refuse to call Francis George “His Eminence” – yet these same relatives voted for an absolute barbarian for president. I’m done fighting a ridiculous fight in trying to get a CHURCH to stick up for the unborn. I want to find a body I can join that will fight TOGETHER against the evil people who don’t respect an unborn baby’s basic right to life. I believe Christ would have it no other way.
If Roman Catholic bishops want to make any sense to and have any moral credibility with their own flock and with people of all other religions and none, they need to:
–Quit ALL their complicity in clerical sexual abuse.
–Advocate freedom of choice in voluntary pregnancy prevention, whether through NFP/FAM, abstinence, contraception, outercourse, or same-sex relationships.
–Advocate open forms of adoption that treat all people involved in the adoption process as valuable human lives, especially including the birth mother, instead of just treating her as a temporary receptacle for someone else’s baby. Also promote humane foster care and guardianship.
–Advocate a complete social welfare system before, during, and ever after birth.
If Roman Catholic bishops want to make any sense to and have any moral credibility with their own flock and with people of all other religions and none, they need to:
That is and never will be their goal. They stand for Truth, not fad or fashion.
Marysia –
Partially right, but you’re tripping up on the old worn-out “every issue has equal weight” mentality and leaving out “objective evil” as a qualifier.
Agree on child rape – their track record voids any moral authority they have. Who could possibly argue that their actions are not criminal, and who could argue that it’s a trivial issue?
Why do pro-deathers always look at pregnancy as an event without a cause? If an alternative to potentially procreative intercourse is wrong, it’s always wrong, regardless of the outcome. I’m not making any value judgements myself on contraception, homsexuality, etc., but I understand and respect the church’s position on them. There is certainly no societal objective right or wrong there.
Agree on point 3, and give credit where it’s due – I think they do that.
Point four is my biggest problem with the Obama campaign in general (aside from infanticide). It is absolutely a good thing to share what you have with those who do not have – but that is NOT the same as government enforcement of that sharing. In fact, it’s NOT charity if it is IMPOSED. The church should absolutely practice charity and I believe they do – sometimes a bit too blindly (CCHD for example). But to advocate for public policy around IMPOSED “CHARITY”? No way.
Obviously the bishops do NOT stand for truth, as evidenced by my earlier post (especially George). I’m as pro-life as anyone here, as evidenced by my strong language against those who would murder in the womb. I just can’t tolerate blind sheep who believe that someone who is right now harboring a child rapist who he promised not to 5 years ago is some kind of holy man who stands for the truth and someone who ought to be representing us against the barbarian-in-chief. Until Catholics wake up and see their leaders for what they are and hold them accountable, the Catholic Church will be the absolute wrong place from which to launch this war.
Janet,
The Protestants (I really don’t like that term since it is not a biblical term and suggests division) are not as divided as you think.
There are numerous groups such as Focus on the Family, etc. that many different denominations come together in. My Pastor was instrumnetal in bringing us together to pass the marriage amendments.
Beisdes, even having a central authoritarian figure in the Pope does not guarantee that all Catholics are united. This is evident. I mean why were Catholics listening to guys like Kmiec when the Popes teeachings on abortion are clear? Perhaps the RCC needs to start a stricter enforcemnt of discpline. There seems to be lack of courage here. Perhpas the RCC needs to select a rabid pro-life US Pope since it seems the US sets the moral tone for the world.
If we all just focus on Christ’s words to unite under Him I think we would get more done. Persecution has a way of doing this. Perhaps this is how God is going to shine and recieve glory under an Obama administration?
I mean look at the way we pro-life believers on this site love one another. I mean, yes, we have squabbles and our feelings get hurt, but I think all in all, we realize that we all pretty much believe the same things. I don’t see that much difference do you at least not the major issues?
I belong to the Assemblies of God, Sarah Palin’s denomination. We are rabid pro-lifers. The Christian Church and Baptists (McCain’s) are pro-life. Community, Calvary and Latter Day Saints are pro-life. I think the main line denominations in question would have to be Presbyterian, Methodist, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Congregational, Universalist Unitarian, United Church of Christ (Obama’s), and the like.
Some of these churches even allow gay clergy, a clear abomination.
If we’re all reading the same Bible ourselves I don’t see how we can be anything other than pro-life. God is not a God of confusion. The Holy Spirit does not divide. So, most people don’t read the Bile themselves and rely on the “clergy” to tell them what is says. Where we get confused is when we listen to the doctrines of men more than we listen to the plain teachings of scripture.
This is true of every church even the Catholic church depending on who’s got the ear. If we’re seeking to please men we are no friend of God..
“Some of these churches even allow gay clergy, a clear abomination.”
You had to go there…..
I belong to the Assemblies of God, Sarah Palin’s denomination. We are rabid pro-lifers. The Christian Church and Baptists (McCain’s) are pro-life. Community, Calvary and Latter Day Saints are pro-life.
I don’t mean to be argumentative, just curious… who comprises what you call “The Christian Church”? Who comprises “Community”?
What Hal, you want to control the church now and God too?
Sorry, no chance. You got your messsiah now go enjoy him.
What happened to the separation of church and state? Frankly, I don’t think it’s within the rights of the church to openly challenge the newly elected president over his opinions, regardless of the church’s beliefs of right or wrong.
Bishops should have burned thier bridges with democrats a long time ago, all they do is try and manipulate.
What happened to the separation of church and state? Frankly, I don’t think it’s within the rights of the church to openly challenge the newly elected president over his opinions, regardless of the church’s beliefs of right or wrong.
Posted by: Ranter at November 12, 2008 7:23 PM
Being against abortion isnt just a religous issue, but there is scientific fact life begins right at conception. This is why even some agnostics are against abortion, because they believe it is the taking of a life.
Ranter: The problem here is that a lot of people who cite the sep of c & s doctrine is that they want the state to define the terms, something that implicitly favors the state. That is not what the constitution says.
There are also First Amendment rights that the bishops enjoy as well as the right to petition the government.
Janet:
Their is a denomination called the Christian Church. There is a non-denominational church called the Community Church.
Google ’em.
Ranter: abortion is a human problem therefore all aspects of society have a vested interest.
Separation. Of. Church. And. State.
You know who doesn’t have that? Places like Saudi Arabia, for instance, where so-called “Qur’anic” law is the rule: corrupted non-religion. What makes you think letting Christianity be a part of the government would be any different?
Or Sharia law.
I hate to burst your bubble but IF for some reason this lawsuit continues and Obama looses (which he won’t, since HE HAS A VALID BIRTH CERTIFICATE), it isn’t McCain who will be President, it’s Biden.
Caps are for emphasis.
Posted by: Enigma at November 12, 2008 2:58 PM
Enigma,
If he has a valid birth cerificate that proves he is an natural born citizen, why did he have it sealed? Why won’t he settle this question and bring it forth to the public where it can be verified??
Why has he had his collegiate records sealed?
This guy is a man of smoke and mirrors.
Another question. Why didn’t he go back to Hawaii right after the election where his beloved grandmother, the woman who raised him died?
It would certainly be understood BY ALL if he took a few days and traveled back to Hawaii with his family (that did not travel with him when he flew back there when she was very ill) to honor and pay respects to her and help in making sure her final arrangements would be proper.
Instead this empty suited blow hard gives an election speech on stage sans the family and goes on with his new “dictatorship” position like nothing happened.
It’s weird, creepy and disrespectful.
It’s a shame the religions aren’t on the same page…
: (
Right–that’s what I meant, Erin.
Posted by: Kevin Keane at November 12, 2008 6:04 PM
the concept of objective evil is just an exucse by conservative catholics to “get out of jail” with regards to having to actually care about the poor. It allows them to bombast about abortion without having to do the logisitical legwork of creating a framework where abortion (legal or illegal) is no longer the most logical answer. They ask women to walk the tightrope of the virgin\whore complex without providing a safety net. So what is the pro-life movement doing to help those they force into motherhood?
What kind of help you say? Free Diapers, formula and other needed supplies. Financial support like helping with rent or with fixing a car so they can get to their job. Parenting classes.
Is that not good enough? Also for those who chose adoption, adoption information or referrals.
Yo,
Didn’t we already have this conversation?
What do you do? There are plenty of opportunities with Catholic Charities, Project Gabriel, Birthright, Rachel’s Vineyard, etc… Give them a call.
Are you male or female?
I can’t wait for the Advent Giving Wreath to go up at my parish. I always donate items (listed on little paper ornaments) to the local CPC. I also recently purchased $60 worth of diapers to donate.
THat’s nice of you Liz, but if I remember correctly, that’s @ a week or two supply – and kids need diapers until what? 2-3-4 years? Charity isn’t a real safety net, sorry. It’s simply not reliable – kid needs diapers NOW! Oops, sorry, nobody donated that size this week, we don’t have enough to cover ___# family’s needs.
Kevin,
The Cathlolic church is made up of humans with weaknesses like anybody else. But look at their “teaching”/ the Catechism. It contains the truth and any priests or bishops who fail do Until Catholics wake up and see their leaders for what they are and hold them accountable, the Catholic Church will be the absolute wrong place from which to launch this war.
Posted by: Kevin Keane at November 12, 2008 6:08
I agree with you that any single priest or bishop has flaws, but you shouldn’t speak so boldly against “their leaders”. They do have the moral authority as past on through the Pope and the Magesterium as long as they teach and follow the Catechism. As long as we unite behind that, then the Church will cleanse itself.
I beleieve the Catechism is possibly the greatest gift the Catholic Church has for mankind and it is “right on”. So if you want to what it means to be a righteous Catholic then you should follow the leaders of the Catholic by following the Catechism.
I don’t think anybody would agrue with you that the safety of children should always come first and that any priest suspected of child molestation should be brought before a civil judge also. Tell me this Kevin, why do you nthink the “Church leaders” are not taking action against child molester priests. I know many priests who are more disgusted than you are and speak of the injustice and harm that child molestation has caused within the church, and they aren’t looking to cover it up.
phylosopher at November 12, 2008 11:54 PM,
Ask and you shall receive….I’ll bet they had that size diapers availabl the following week.
Cleaning up previous post:
Until Catholics wake up and see their leaders for what they are and hold them accountable, the Catholic Church will be the absolute wrong place from which to launch this war.
Posted by: Kevin Keane at November 12, 2008 6:08
Kevin, I agree with you that any single priest or bishop has flaws, but you shouldn’t speak so boldly against “their leaders” in generalities. They do have the moral authority as passed on through the Pope and the Magesterium as long as they teach and follow the Catechism. As long as we unite behind that, then the Church will cleanse itself.
I beleieve the Catechism is possibly the greatest gift the Catholic Church has for mankind and it is “right on”. So if you want to what it means to be a righteous Catholic then you should follow the leaders of the Catholic by following the Catechism.
I don’t think anybody would agrue with you that the safety of children should always come first and that any priest suspected of child molestation should be brought before a civil judge also. Tell me this Kevin, why do you nthink the “Church leaders” are not taking action against child molester priests. I know many priests who are more disgusted than you are and speak of the injustice and harm that child molestation has caused within the church, and they aren’t looking to cover it up.
Both of the packages of diapers I donated had over 100 diapers in each package + a free package of baby wipes. My mom also donated the same size diapers. They were size three.
For advent I’ll donate newborn size if we can find them.
I welcome any moves by RCC officials to actually require adherence by priests and bishops to church doctrine on abortion. While the RCC has much room for improvement, honesty requires me to point out that they are light years ahead of the protestant denominations in this area.
Liz,
Thank you for donating! What you do and what I do is important even though Phlyo scoffs.
“I welcome any moves by RCC officials to actually require adherence by priests and bishops to church doctrine on abortion. ”
My goodness, Doyle, wouldn’t this be nice? You’d think this wouldn’t be an issue; that people who belong to a group that teach something would believe that something. But here we are.
After reading the post from KK and Marysia I began to get scared that this had turned into Catholic bashing…thank God for truthseeker.
“moral authority as past on through the Pope and the Magesterium as long as they teach and follow the Catechism.”
There have been immoral men in our church, BUT our Church in filled with greater men then these lost ones. Their wrong has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church. I advise KK to look deeper into her teachings.
Now, to the real issue here is how we all band together to fight against abortion. Let’s stay focus here.
–Janet on the Catholic bishops: “That is and never will be their goal. They stand for Truth, not fad or fashion.”–
Please do not trivialize my demands for justice as “fad or fashion”–they are based on *universal human rights for the unborn and already-born.*
–Kevin: Partially right, but you’re tripping up on the old worn-out “every issue has equal weight” mentality and leaving out “objective evil” as a qualifier…
Why do pro-deathers always look at pregnancy as an event without a cause? —
Excuse me, but I do not think the objective evil of abortion can be alleviated without thorough relief of the objective evils that cause it, namely various forms of violence and discrimination against women and children.
And where did you get it that I’m a “prodeather”? i’ve been involved in prolife work for decades, and what’s more, I have faced the ultimate test of prolife: going through with the crisis pregnancy from hell, thank you very much.
I certainly don’t look at pregnancy with an event without a cause. While defining abortion itself as a matter of violent, unjust lifetaking–when the matter is alleviating the root causes of abortion, it is vital to relieve the contexts of oppression and violence that surround many women’s sexual and reproductive lives.
–elizabeth:After reading the post from KK and Marysia I began to get scared that this had turned into Catholic bashing…thank God for truthseeker.–
Elizabeth, I happen to have great respect for many aspects of Catholicism, including sacred music and liturgy, and the traditions of charity and social justice–it’s just that these traditions are not evenly applied to women’s rights.
it is not Catholic bashing to ask questions of Catholic doctrine, or to ask that Catholic officials refrain from imposing purely sectarian views especially on nonCatholics. Opposition to abortion is a stance that can be held by people of all faiths and none, and anyway it concerns killing and the definition of personhood–so it is a valid issue for the public sphere.
Opposing contraception, homosexuality, nonmarital sex, etc are not at all in the same category.
“They ask women to walk the tightrope of the virgin\whore complex without providing a safety net. ”
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 12, 2008 10:19 PM
What?!!!
Marysia,
“If Roman Catholic bishops want to make any sense to and have any moral credibility with their own flock and with people of all other religions and none, they need to:”
–Quit ALL their complicity in clerical sexual abuse.
–Advocate freedom of choice in voluntary pregnancy prevention, whether through NFP/FAM, abstinence, contraception, outercourse, or same-sex relationships.
–Advocate open forms of adoption that treat all people involved in the adoption process as valuable human lives, especially including the birth mother, instead of just treating her as a temporary receptacle for someone else’s baby. Also promote humane foster care and guardianship.
–Advocate a complete social welfare system before, during, and ever after birth.
Posted by: Marysia at November 12, 2008 5:22 PM
–Janet on the Catholic bishops: “That is and never will be their goal. They stand for Truth, not fad or fashion.”–
Please do not trivialize my demands for justice as “fad or fashion”–they are based on *universal human rights for the unborn and already-born.*
Let me explain, the Church does not meet the “demands” of anyone. I agree sexual abuse by any group or individual cannot be tolerated. It is not only Catholic Church that it guilty, but it’s the most publicized. Artificial contraception will never be allowed, nor will same-sex, sexual relationships. The Church advocates adoption, even has groups that handle them, they also have homes for children, provide guardianship, and social workers out in the communities. Check out the work of Catholic Charities. I have no idea what you mean by calling a woman a “temporary receptacle”.
That said, I don’t see why you have so many “demands for justice”. The Church is concerned with human rights for all.
I’ve never been so ashamed to be a Catholic as I have been the last couple weeks. 54% of us voted for the anti-christ, simply pathetic. It’s as though all the pro-life work we’ve done was for nothing, why dontate to pro-life, why talk about it at church, why pray for the overturn of R.v.W, dumbass catholics are just going to vote in a pro-abortion maniac anyways, and all his senators. oooh now the bishops are concerned TOO LATE! where was church leadership??? you can’t tell us who to vote for but you can tell the congregation the churchs stance and why and maybe mention the doctrine that without great sin we cannot vote for an individual who plans to promote easier abortions, hello FOCA!! DUMBASS CATHOLICS!!! I’m so ashamed of my church! I know where the leadership was, it was sitting around a table discussing how not to offend anybody in the sermon to save the collection plate! pathetic!!
Well thank goodness you don’t speak for all Catholics!
Yuck.