Links to Barack Obama’s votes on Illinois’ Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Below is a listing of then-state Senator Barack Obama’s votes and state senate floor speeches on IL’s Born Alive Infant Protection Act.
(At right is a political cartoon by Jack Higgins, printed in the Chicago Sun-Times on August 25, 2004, during his U.S. Senate campaign.)
A package of Born Alive bills was introduced three times during Obama’s tenure.
The cornerstone bill was the Born Alive Infants Protection Act, aka “Born Alive Infant Defined,” which defined legal personhood to include born alive infants any time the words “person,” “human being,” “child,” or “individual” was stated in IL law.
This definition was identical to the federal BAIPA which was drafted from the definition of “live birth” created by the World Health Organization in 1950 and adopted by the United Nations in 1955.
Following are Obama’s actions and votes on Born Alive. The bill number changed every year it was reintroduced.
2001
Senate Bill 1095, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Obama’s “no” vote in the IL Senate Judiciary Committee here, March 28, 2001
Transcript of Obama’s verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001, pages 84-90
Obama’s “present” vote on the IL Senate floor, March 30, 2001
2002
Senate Bill 1662, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Transcript of Obama taking credit for Christ Hospital’s Comfort Room in the IL Senate Judiciary Committee hearing, March 5, 2002
Obama’s “no” vote in the IL Senate Judiciary Committee, March 6, 2002
Transcript of Obama’s verbal opposition to Born Alive on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002, pages 28-35
Obama’s “no” vote on the IL Senate floor, April 4, 2002
Listen to audio from Obama’s 2002 IL Senate floor debate wherein he argued that while babies might be aborted alive, it would be a “burden” to a mother’s “original decision” to assess and treat them.
Meanwhile, the federal Born Alive Infants Protection Act with a “neutrality clause” added passed the U.S. Senate 98-0, the U.S. House overwhelmingly, and was signed into law August 5, 2002. The pro-abortion group NARAL expressed neutrality on the bill.
2003
Senate Bill 1082, Born Alive Infant Protection Act
Democrats took control of the IL Senate with the 2002 elections. This year Born Alive was sent to the Health & Human Services Committee, chaired by Barack Obama.
As can be seen on the vote docket, Obama first voted to amend SB1082 to add the “neutrality clause” from the federal version of Born Alive to the IL version to make them absolutely identical. (DP#1 means “Do Pass Amendment #1.)
Then Obama voted against the identical version. (DPA means, “Do Pass as Amended.)
Additional corroboration of Obama’s vote: IL State Senate Republican Staff Analysis SB1082, March 12-13, 2003, bottom of page 2
For 4 years following his 2003 vote Obama misrepresented it, stating the wording of the IL version of Born Alive was not the same as the federal version, and he would have voted for it if so. As recently as August 16, 2008, Obama made this false assertion.
But when evidence presented was irrefutable, Obama’s campaign on August 18, 2008, admitted the truth to the New York Sun.
The nonpartison group FactCheck.org has since corroborated Obama voted against identical legislation as passed overwhelmingly on the federal level and then misrepresented his vote.
Click here to see a comparison of the final federal version of Born Alive and the 2003 IL version Obama opposed.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Go Obama!
yep, you’ll know them by their fruits…
Obama’s father and stepfather were both Muslim, and the pastor of his church is a supporter of Louis Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam.
And we wonder why he “loves” American babies so much.
ugh….
Obama’s father and stepfather were both Muslim,
And we wonder why he “loves” American babies so much.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah, what does that have to do with anything?
What do American babies have to do with anything?
Why American babies are the bestest babies!
I’ve been going over to that Child Free site and yes, it does seem selfish to give birth to a child when their are so many out there that need to be adopted.
Ah well I suppose it’s cheeper…
Barack Obama’s twisting of the English language in his mauling over the “born alive” bill is so typical of what Planned Parenthood wants in a candidate.
This man must be stopped at the election booth.
He is very, very dangerous to the anti-abortion cause.
He is not a Christian as he claims to be but has sold out to the lust for power.
yep, you’ll know them by their fruits…
Obama’s father and stepfather were both Muslim, and the pastor of his church is a supporter of Louis Farrakhan’s Nation of Islam.
And we wonder why he “loves” American babies so much.
ugh….
Posted by: Anonymous at February 19, 2008 7:34 PM
………………………….
Know them by their fruit eh? Did you inherit your daddy’s white robe and his favorite spittoon? How did your daddy ‘love’ dem babies? As often as possible?
HisMan! I’ve missed you!
Sally,
I’d love to answer you, but your post didn’t make a lick of sense to me.
Care to re-phrase?
Heck, 70% of the women who have abortions are Christians. What does that have to do with anything?
The “Born Alive” deal has contexts – all of which I’m not aware of. I don’t see much disagreement about babies which are actually “born alive,” overall.
“This man must be stopped at the election booth.
He is very, very dangerous to the anti-abortion cause.”
well, you and all your friends make sure you get out to vote for McCain.
Guys, Tiller case development, check it out:
here
Laura: Heck, 70% of the women who have abortions are Christians. What does that have to do with anything?
Exactly. When a given person is actually in the situation, they often see that ending the pregnancy is the best way to do, regardless of their various affiliations and what they may have said in the past.
Doug
Anybody recognize the Flatiron Building?
that’s not the flatiron building
Never, ever count the Clintons out. They’re tough and sly.
(I’m not kidding. Wasn’t I the one who said McCain would be the Republican nominee 4 months ago when he was polling at 3%? That he was the only Republican I feared?)
Laura, I don’t count the Clintons out yet. She’d be a fine president, but I’m much more excited about Senator Obama.
Anon:
Thanks.
My computer went down and was in the shop for a week. Then it took a while to restore all the files.
I’d think I’d rather listen to Hillary blabber than go through that again. At least I could day dream and then snap back into reality without much harm or stress.
Hal:
Obama is a used car saleman. All show and no substance. McCain will have him for lunch. I mean did you hear what his wife said tonight about her never being so proud to be an American? What planet does this guy and his wife live on? He talks about ending the violence in Darfur and in the same breath ending the Iraq war. How’s he gonna do that, by sending over the Pillsbury dough boy? And all you pro-aborts buy this stuff. What is it that you liberal guys sniff? Is it that Kennedy whiskey maybe?
This guy was educated in the Ivy League? I’m really, really glad my son didn’t go to Harvard.
I don’t mean to ruin this topic but I have to rant:
I was talking with a girl I just meet tonight and mentioned I had a boyfriend. My RA comes by and says, “Yeah the Chinese one.” So I said, trying to keep my cool, “He’s half Chinese and half Thai but he is an American, born here same as you and me.” And she started with oh well he looks Chinese and too bad we don’t have Asians here to do our nails and whatever so I freaked out on her calling her what she is, a racist. She didn’t seem to think there was anything wrong with it though, she said she only said that because he was my boyfriend. I asked if her she would say racist stereotypes about him if he was African American and she said of course she would. So I started yelling about how people are people no matter the skin color and she’s being racist and it’s unacceptable no matter the reason. I then sent her this message:
Before you say something negative about a race, think if you would say it to a person of that race. If you wouldn’t say it to a person of that race then don’t say it at all. I’m sure you wouldn’t like someone of another race going around telling everyone that wet white people smell like wet dog. I’m just asking you to treat others the way you would like to be treated. Whether a person is Black, White, Asian they are still people just like you and me and they deserve the same amount of respect
I’m just about to have a spazzz attack. Why was this person given a position of power in my college????
Jess,
deep breaths….
I want my Mom. Or Bjork.
I shall don my lovely swan dress just to cheer you up: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42597000/jpg/_42597075_bjork_swan_ap.jpg
Anyway, that kind of bigotry is everywhere. I don’t suppose you read the second post on this very thread. (Scroll up^)
Apparently Muslims aren’t American.
Laura: Heck, 70% of the women who have abortions are Christians. What does that have to do with anything?
Exactly. When a given person is actually in the situation, they often see that ending the pregnancy is the best way to do, regardless of their various affiliations and what they may have said in the past.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at February 19, 2008 10:06 PM
***************
Doug,
Christian is supposed to mean much more then an affiliation. A Christian is supposed to serve Jesus by serving his fellow man.
As Christians, our strength is in praying to God each day and reflecting on the Holy Gospel. It sounds like a pretty simple discipline but so many Christians fall away from it. I would venture that virtually 0% of those Christians who choose to end their pregnancies actually gave God 30 minutes of each day (in the year prior)in prayer and meditation on life of Jesus.
Those who walk in the Light are life giving, not life taking.
Judge not, that ye be not judged.. For with what judgement you judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how will thou sayest to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam from thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote from thy brother’s eye. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rent you. Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall e opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Matthew 7:1-8
Jill,
What a great cartoon! The baby seems to be reaching out to God while Obama lashes out at Him. If you look carefully, you can see an angel’s face next to God’s.
Janet, I believe that’s a baby next to God?
that’s not the flatiron building
Hey Hal,
I was afraid of that….
Doug
she started with oh well he looks Chinese and too bad we don’t have Asians here to do our nails and whatever
Jess, now that was a bit weird….
Doug
Doug, Christian is supposed to mean much more then an affiliation. A Christian is supposed to serve Jesus by serving his fellow man.
I suggest that allowing women the freedom they now have in this matter is doing that.
……
As Christians, our strength is in praying to God each day and reflecting on the Holy Gospel. It sounds like a pretty simple discipline but so many Christians fall away from it. I would venture that virtually 0% of those Christians who choose to end their pregnancies actually gave God 30 minutes of each day (in the year prior)in prayer and meditation on life of Jesus.
Maybe you’re right – I don’t know on that one.
……
Those who walk in the Light are life giving, not life taking.
Or not. Even going with the assumption of the biblical god, etc., I think there is a case to be made for not every single pregnancy being wanted, necessarily, and that any all-knowing God would already know what miscarriages will occur and when, as well as who will willfully choose abortion and when.
Doug
Thanks for putting this up, Jill. The U.S. has gone crazy, but is still not ready for Obama’s support of infanticide. I’ll assist in promulgating this information. A special missive needs to be directed to Oprah Winfrey. I wonder how much she knows about this. She’ll bear responsibility for supporting this kind of candidate.
Jill, thanks for collecting these links. I have a sick feeling that they’ll be needed in the months ahead of us….
Also, let’s tell it like it is. Once a fetus is born — even if that birth happened during an abortion procedure — that fetus becomes a baby by anyone’s definition of the word. Some pro-lifers toss around the term “baby killer” to describe all pro-choicers, but it’s usually inaccurate. In this case, however, it is sadly the best term to describe the man.
Barack Obama supports killing babies. Spread the word.
Doug wrote:
I think there is a case to be made for not every single pregnancy being wanted, necessarily, and that any all-knowing God would already know what miscarriages will occur and when, as well as who will willfully choose abortion and when.
Poor theology, old bean. :)
Miscarriages are natural deaths. Of course God knows about them. He is omnipotent. All human beings will die someday. I’ll die someday, and I’m sure that God knows both the time and nature of my death. That doesn’t make it okay for you to kill me.
God also knows which women will choose to abort, just as you surmised. However, that doesn’t mean He approves of their abortion. It simply means that He gives them free will, even though He knows they will abuse it. God’s perfect knowledge does not excuse human evil. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him … He even told Judas about it before he did it … but Judas was still guilty of great evil for what he did.
FF,
I said AMERICAN babies, that does include all races, you know.
Or not. Even going with the assumption of the biblical god, etc., I think there is a case to be made for not every single pregnancy being wanted, necessarily, and that any all-knowing God would already know what miscarriages will occur and when, as well as who will willfully choose abortion and when.
oh doug, come on. That is a stretch. That’s like saying that God knows beforehand about murders of adults, therefore God condones murder of adults.
Not every adult life was “wanted” by someone in the Bible. That doesn’t mean that God wanted them dead.
Those who walk in the Light are life giving, not life taking.
Procreation is the primary purpose of sex. Having sex in the context of a marriage ensures the best possible outcome for all parties concerned. The baby has two parents, the father takes responsibility for the child, the mother has a partner and support…
Granted that there are other functions of the sexual act. Just as duct tape was made to seal ducts, there are now books on the million and one uses for this sticky silver stuff. However, it’s primary purpose was for sealing ducts.
If we agree that the primary (emphasize primary) purpose of the sexual act is procreation, then we can say that sexual union equals life.
We have perverted that however, and now the sexual act no longer serves it’s primary purpose.
The sexual act now equals death. This is what we mean when we say we are going against the natural order of things. And this is why abortion is such an abomination. It perverts the natural, primary reason for one of the most important aspects of our humanness…and turns it from an avenue for life, to an avenue for death…
While duct tapes primary purpose was for sealing ducts, it’s other uses can also be beneficial, but when you use duct tape to silence a Jon Benet Ramsey you are not simply altering it’s purpose, you are perverting it.
I happened to listen to Obama’s speech last night. This guy is promising a gravy train of government programs. After he is elected, I don’t think I’ll have to work any longer, everything will be free.
How ’bout it Jasper. He’s going to reduce the cost of my health insurance by $2,500.00 per year. That means I’ll be getting a refund from Aetna! woo hoo!
MK:
It’s interesting how you say that abortion has now redefined sex as death.
It’s satan’s part of ultimate purpose to take that which is good and make it evil. Do you think he got 1/3 of the angels to follow him becasue they thought God was good and he was bad? I don’t think so. Pro-aborts are similarly self deceived. Planned Parenthood practices exquisitely this very same satanically inspired art of deception and it is woven into their very name “Planned Parenthood”, an oxymoron, and “pro-choice” (which is really pro-death).
That is what pro-aborts do (perhaps without realizing it or being able to admit it). They make that which is good, the creation of life, and turn it into that which is evil, death (and try to call it good). This is the very definition of blasphemy. And blasphemy is the type of sin which is the worst kind of sin becasue its aim and goal is to eliminate God Himself which, if successful, would destroy the entire Universe (since He holds everything together). Therefore, abortion, which is blasphemy, is ultimately an attempt to destroy God and all of creation.
We must not have a President who holds that abortion is acceptable and therefore good and tries to make it as good. Obama’s charisma comes from the pit of hell itself and Oprah Winfrey is a similar false prophet who deceives many. You think it a coincidence thay they are so successful? I wouldn’t trade anything they have for what they believe.
Here’s my defintion of abortion again which I published last year and fits right into your thesis:
“Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator,
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, it negates God as Redeemer,
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy,
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive,
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, Satan’s ultimate power.
Abortion is a counterfeit, for the clawprints of Satan are everywhere to be found in its performance;
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom,
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God,
Yes, abortion is Satan’s feeble attempt at killing God Himself, for abortion is a metaphor for Satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.”
Copyright 2007, 2008 by HisMan
“I mean did you hear what his wife said tonight about her never being so proud to be an American?”
Of course, this is an appropriate exercise of her freedom of speech (something, in itself, to be proud of in this country); however, it is unseemly and insulting for persons who aspire to be president and first lady of this country. Occupants of the White House should proclaim their love of and pride in this country, even when they disagree with those who held the post before them.
Obama’s messiah complex is also unbecoming, and, I’m hoping, will ultimately be his downfall.
S.
Why don’t all the child killers and enablers like Obama just go to China? They’re socialist/Communist and their policies might find a home there. And we’d be rid of them.
Just a quick note – Hillary has not been able to attack Barack on this, because she needs the hard-core pro-abortion votes and lobby, just like he does. However, the majority of the American public is disgusted and appalled by partial birth abortion and by the fact that infants born alive after an abortion could just be shelved and left to die. Even many who self-identify as “pro-choice” find these two skeletons in the pro-choice closet to be abhorrent. However, political expedience meant that Hillary could not raise the issue of Obama’s votes on these issues (plus, she probably agrees with him!).
However, McCain will be able to raise this in the general election, it will be vetted there, and many people outside of the loyal democratic left-leaning base will find it to be sickening.
Just my thoughts.
S.
“I happened to listen to Obama’s speech last night. This guy is promising a gravy train of government programs. After he is elected, I don’t think I’ll have to work any longer, everything will be free.”
Not for you, Jasper. Hold on tight to your wallet – here comes president obama!
Anonymous:
Your analysis is right on.
McCain will eat Obama’s or Hillary’s lunch.
I can’t wait for the debates.
Hisman,
Exactly. C.S.Lewis says that nobody (or virtually nobody`think SoMG) chooses something because it is bad. Rather, they choose something bad because they perceive it as a good. In there minds they are reaching for something “good”. As Doug would say, for them it is good.
However, you and I, and many others, believe in an objective good and can see that just because something appears “good” for you it doesn’t necessarily follow that it is in fact, good.
This is why people can be so easily led to do “bad” things. They aren’t actually seeking a “bad” goal, they are seeking a “good” end, but use a “bad” way to get it.
Which is why I harp so much on the difference between magic and miracles. Supernatural and preternatural.
One is illusion, and one is real/truth.
Exactly, MK, the evil one knows that we humans gravitate towards what is good and beautiful, so anything that he uses to lure us away from God is not, on the surface, going to look *evil* or *ugly*. It’s going to have the veneer of good and the appearance of beauty.
Choice looks good; who can be against it? Death and killing do not look good, so cover them with the veneer of choice and suddenly they look better.
S.
By the way, I forgot to mention, I love this cartoon. Kind of reminds me of that debate in which lightening struck just as Giuliani was talking about abortion!
And, the anonymous 10:11 post was me. (just to be consistent).
S.
Three american soldiers died today. Remember, George W. was PRO LIFE. So pro life he sent 4,000 americans to die. McCain is so pro life he has promised us more wars…..gotta love the blood on the hands of this Chickenhawk admin. So in November, go ahead and vote McCain in office…that way we will have some more kids not grow up with parents, some sisters lose some brothers, some parents out live their kids. It will be great!
Peach Pit,
http://www.argonunya.com/HypocrisyExposed.html
you and your kind have the blood of 49,000,000 unborn children on your hands.
“Three american soldiers died today. Remember, George W. was PRO LIFE. So pro life he sent 4,000 americans to die. McCain is so pro life he has promised us more wars…..gotta love the blood on the hands of this Chickenhawk admin. So in November, go ahead and vote McCain in office…that way we will have some more kids not grow up with parents, some sisters lose some brothers, some parents out live their kids. It will be great!”
Nice effort to change the subject. American soldiers CHOOSE to join the armed forces and most who joined post 9/11 KNEW that they would be deployed and WANTED to defend our country. I know because my husband is one of them. My guess is in your world as long as someone calls themselves “pro-life” you and people like you will find something irrelevant to attack them and say “oh how pro-life is that? ne-ne-ne”. What exactly do you suggest we do about the threat to our country from islamofacists? Let me guess America deserves it because we are so capitalist, uncaring, and militant loving blah, blah, blah.
Tori,
God bless you & your husband. Please tell him thank you, from me, and that I appreciate what he is doing for our country.
mk:9:00,
Those who walk in the Light are life giving, not life taking.
Procreation is the primary purpose of sex. Having sex in the context of a marriage ensures the best possible outcome for all parties concerned. The baby has two parents, the father takes responsibility for the child, the mother has a partner and support…
Granted that there are other functions of the sexual act. Just as duct tape was made to seal ducts, there are now books on the million and one uses for this sticky silver stuff. However, it’s primary purpose was for sealing ducts.
If we agree that the primary (emphasize primary) purpose of the sexual act is procreation, then we can say that sexual union equals life.
mk: I’ll never look at a roll of duct tape again in quite the same way. Great analogy!
“What exactly do you suggest we do about the threat to our country from islamofacists?”
Do we don’t deserve it, but we could stop provoking them. Do you realize that worldwide we went from a few hundred trying to kill us to hundreds of thousands? Thanks for that, GWB.
All I’m saying is this…..war = death, abortion = death. You cannot be pro war and be pro life. We just bombed the hel$ out of muslim babies for 6 years…think we are safer? A vote for Obama is a vote for less deaths for Americans.
PeachPit,
I agree.
I’m pro-war (in some cases) and anti-abortion in all cases.
Doug is a failed Protestant who was raised by Protestants that made God into whatever they wanted. They produced a atheist, wanna be Epicurean, who measures life in a simple formula that decides that the correct decision in life, is made by pain lessened and pleasure(happiness) increased.
If you want Doug to do anything in life, produce pain in Doug, and watch the coward change his decision on any matter that lessens his pain.
If you want Doug to do anything in life, produce pleasure in Doug, and watch the coward change his decision on any matter that increases his pleasure.
Atheist are the best at rationalizing their decisions that always avoid pain, since pain produces nothing of worth but the desire to avoid any matter that produces pain.
Combine that with a early Fly Spaghetti Monster myth that concentrated on a God which defined happiness by a life of health, wealth and the power that comes from the other two, and you create a Doug.
This occurs from not having one, or all three blessings from their trinity mentioned above.
Which is why from Doug to the weak mind of FF, that sums up life as what goes around comes around, you find a simple minded,easy manipulated, Pavlovian dog, that only makes value judgements by measuring decisions on pain lessened and pleasure gained.
Abortion, the breakfast of cowards.
“We just bombed the hel$ out of muslim babies for 6 years…think we are safer?”
like hell we did. Al-Queda is responsible for the overwhelming majority of Iraq deaths.
Hmm, we have a bomb that targets babies? What is the name of this bomb that targets baby Muslims and avoids the Christian babies in Iraq?
Poor Peach Pit, a aspiring agitational propagandist throwing out such unbelievable propaganda that it is actually counter productive.
Stalin would have you shot for such counter productive propaganda.
Hal is displaying a natural form of cowardness which is common amongst abortionist.
Following his logic to its conclusion, every Nazi soldier that was KIA made millions more German’s want to join the Wehrmacht.
Following his logic, every German that was KIA in the USSR was ready and willing to join his dead brothers on the front where death was assured.
Yep, coward Hal, and we gave those German’s just what they wanted, to die for their cowardly leader who hung out in a hole in the ground, while his soldiers threw down their weapons in a mass surrender.
Getting the comparision yet Hal?
You know, where does UBL hide out while sending out his soldiers from God to slit the throat of infidels around the world?
Your ignorance is amazing Hal.
“I think there is a case to be made for not every single pregnancy being wanted, necessarily, and that any all-knowing God would already know what miscarriages will occur and when, as well as who will willfully choose abortion and when.”
NaaMan: Poor theology, old bean. :)
I disagree, but let’s see what you say…
……
Miscarriages are natural deaths. Of course God knows about them. He is omnipotent. All human beings will die someday. I’ll die someday, and I’m sure that God knows both the time and nature of my death. That doesn’t make it okay for you to kill me.
“Okay” isn’t what I was saying. The biblical god did not want every pregnancy to continue. An all-knowing god means we are predestined, that god knowing the time and actions, as you said. Under that scenario, it’s just gonna happen, and “okay” doesn’t even come into it. You, me, the candle-stick maker, etc., who don’t know the future – we may have our opinions about it, sure, but that’s “after the fact” of foreknowledge on the part of the all-knowing entity.
……
God also knows which women will choose to abort, just as you surmised. However, that doesn’t mean He approves of their abortion. It simply means that He gives them free will, even though He knows they will abuse it. God’s perfect knowledge does not excuse human evil. Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him … He even told Judas about it before he did it … but Judas was still guilty of great evil for what he did.
Nope, no free will if there’s an all-knowing god. If a thing is going to occur, per the knowledge of a god, and that god is all-powerful, how in the heck can you say it’s “not okay” per that god? No argument that people would call what a Judas did “evil,” but again we’re back to pre-destinationm, whether it’d be miscarriage, abortion, etc.
Doug
“Or not. Even going with the assumption of the biblical god, etc., I think there is a case to be made for not every single pregnancy being wanted, necessarily, and that any all-knowing God would already know what miscarriages will occur and when, as well as who will willfully choose abortion and when.”
oh doug, come on. That is a stretch. That’s like saying that God knows beforehand about murders of adults, therefore God condones murder of adults.
Bethany, that is really not what I was saying. Foreknowledge is enough, without going into “condones” or not. However, if an all-knowing entity sees that a thing will occur, and if that entity is also all-powerful and does not stop it, then draw your own conclusions.
……
Not every adult life was “wanted” by someone in the Bible. That doesn’t mean that God wanted them dead.
I don’t disagree with that. An all-knowing god would know whether the life was going to end or continue, regardless of the “wanting” by other people.
Doug
I happened to listen to Obama’s speech last night. This guy is promising a gravy train of government programs. After he is elected, I don’t think I’ll have to work any longer, everything will be free.
Heh, Jasper, your point is well-taken. All the candidates have to promise much more than can be reasonable delivered, which is a sad commentary on the electorate.
Bush Jr. has expanded the national debt by over 60% since he took office. That debt would have gone way up if Kerry had won, too.
Doug
Off topic:
There’s a total lunar eclipse going on now (at least in IL). Clear sky, full moon & it’s about 3/4 “gone” now. We’re not supposed to get another one until 2010. Check it out if you get a chance, it’s pretty cool!
Exactly. C.S.Lewis says that nobody (or virtually nobody`think SoMG) chooses something because it is bad. Rather, they choose something bad because they perceive it as a good. In there minds they are reaching for something “good”. As Doug would say, for them it is good.
I largely agree, MK. If Muslim Sharia law was to be imposed in the US, you and many others would not like it one bit, though there are plenty of people who think it good. Likewise, many people do not want religionists of other stripes to be forcing their morality on the general populace.
Desire is indeed our motivation, but IMO it’s best to maintain the separation of church and state, all the way.
Doug
Nope, no free will if there’s an all-knowing god. If a thing is going to occur, per the knowledge of a god, and that god is all-powerful, how in the heck can you say it’s “not okay” per that god? No argument that people would call what a Judas did “evil,” but again we’re back to pre-destinationm, whether it’d be miscarriage, abortion, etc.
Doug,
Free will with full knowledge of what’s going to happen is like knowing one of your children is going to make a bad decision. You know that in order for them to “grow”, they need to make it. You stand back, keeping your eyes on them the whole time, and allow them to make the bad decision. We may not like the decision they make, but we allow them to make it so they can “grow”.
In essence, we give them the free-will to make the bad decision, knowing well what is going to happen, we don’t like the decision, but in the end it was good for them because it was part of their “destiny” in becoming an adult.
Does that make sense?
Doug is a failed Protestant
No I’m not, yllas. Unlike you, I do not pretend to be what I am not.
……
If you want Doug to do anything in life, produce pain in Doug, If you want Doug to do anything in life, produce pleasure in Doug…
Nope. Just be honest and ask me. If there is a coward on this board, yllas, it is you, hiding behind somebody else’s name spelled backwards. Why don’t you just give that first part a try: “be honest.” You give every indication of not really caring about much of what you say, but rather just using Jill’s blog for the exposition of your own hatred, really self-hatred at the core.
Once again, given your behavior, it is ludicrous for you to act like you should have any input into what freedoms pregnant women have, or anybody else, for that matter.
Doug
JLM – right on – my wife just called me. Heck of a moon….
Doug
I heard it was the same lunar eclipse (red) that the Indians saw when Christopher Colombus first “landed” in this great land. They were scared!
speaking of cool “space stuff”, check this one out!
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2008/02/20/am.hotshots.meteor.cnn
Doug, Free will with full knowledge of what’s going to happen is like knowing one of your children is going to make a bad decision. You know that in order for them to “grow”, they need to make it. You stand back, keeping your eyes on them the whole time, and allow them to make the bad decision. We may not like the decision they make, but we allow them to make it so they can “grow”.
In essence, we give them the free-will to make the bad decision, knowing well what is going to happen, we don’t like the decision, but in the end it was good for them because it was part of their “destiny” in becoming an adult.
Does that make sense?
Anonymous, yes, it sure does.
Agreed that the parent doesn’t “like” what they kid chooses, but the parent more wants the learning process to continue than to intervene with the one action on the kid’s part.
And I guess from the parent’s point of view the kid is “predestined” to make that choice, there, to the extent that the parent was sure it would happen.
Doug
MK:
The proof that we are made in His image is because we are ingrained with His sense of morailty.
That’s why guilt sets in either consciously or subconsciously when we do something bad, like being pro-choice or murdering one of your children.
I’m not sure about your magic/miracles analagy though.
Doug Doug Doug.
Were you raised in a home with Christian parents?
Are you a atheist now?
Is it true that Methodist allow abortion from bible interpetation which allows the followers of Christ to murder the soul and body of his creation inside a women?
Quakers have no universal belief, in fact they are simply polytheist sitting around for some message/bible line, voice in their head, to justify some action. Which is why you abandoned such ignorance and took up the will and power to decide that abortion is nothing more then a matter of pain lessened and pleasure gained.
When one speaks of self hate, one must consider how a Protestant became a simple minded Hedonist, aspiring to Epicurean selections, that only kept one belief of his superstitious parents religion, which is to murder the most defenceless creation of the Annointed One.
IF abortion is not a act of self hate, born of the pursuit of pleasure, and formed from a God that is reduced to health wealth and power, and the blessings of that materialistic trinity, then your the most ignorant atheist I have ever met.
And it is in that failure of Doug to understand exactly how Protestant Christians created the God of death, which was preceded by making the sexual organs into a object of self pleasure, by meeting at Lambeth in the 1920’s, which set their Christians on the road to abortion.
Way before you were born Doug, your Protestant belief system, to which you were born into, had already made abortion a virtue from Jesus, and just made the secular law fit their failed attempts at keeping their di– in their pants. Who benefits from the non existence of bastard children Doug? Now, be honest with yourself Doug, and realize that only a rich family fights,murderers, deceives, and creates Gods which allow abortion, for the wealth, health, and power lost to a simple act of masturbating inside a women, and producing unwanted results, that are the most defenceless human life on the planet.
So, Dug the abortion slug, you actually were pre- destined to turn out for the murder of the most defenceless creation of the God known as Jesus, a baby in the womb.
Your Protestant religion teaches self hate Doug before you were born into this world.
Now, is abortion not self hate Doug, or a act of love which increases the chances of one getting a blessing of riches, from getting rid of a financial obligation, known as a baby?
We already know your answer Doug, that suddenly walks around such words as hate, love in “such matters”. You know “the matter”, the euphemism you use for the allowance of killing what the pursuit of pleasure produced.
Your a simple philosophy Doug, a Hedonist that can be made to bend anyway the force of pain lessened or pleasure gained is offered to you.
P.s. Doug, pick a line or two from this post and paste to the board, so you can control the argument like some cheap politician does.
It makes you think your intelligent, and win the debate in your mind. And remember Doug, you just “think your have a good argument” that your not a cowardly Hedonist measuring decisions on pain lessened and pleasure gained , “but you don’t”.
See Doug, I learned that closed minded bit of narcissistic sophistry from you. Remember your own words Doug about those “who think they have a good argument against abortion at this message board, but they don’t”?
Holy Jesus,
Doug is now becoming a absolutist and dropping his Hedonistic, wanna be Epicurean, decision making based on pain and pleasure and now demands a total control of the word freedom.
Just remember Doug, your freedom is my slavery.
Who are you to think your the absolute authority on FREEDOM Doug besides you and yourself Doug?
More Doug.
Doug was a successful Protestant who stopped being a successful Protestant and became a atheist.
Please Doug, who walks away from success, you?
Your Protestant God of your youth proved deficient, lacking,performed ineffectively(definition of fail) for your intelligence based on pain and pleasure.
Your still using arguments about the Protestant vision of God based on pain and pleasure you learned from your parents inability to know much about their religion. Then again, they made you into a atheist with a shallow philosophy that is nothing more then pain lessened and pleasure gained by which any coward can gain respect and honor by trying to prove killing another human being is not a pleasure gained.
But, we know, that Doug knows in his youthful heart, all that Protestant talk was deficent, lacking, and most of all, hypocritical in his life while he grew into a successful atheist.
Fact is Doug, you were pre-destined to be a silly atheist that is a product of failed Protestantism in your father and mother.
They never believed either Doug.
Now who do you vote for? Cheating Maverick McCain or Obama?
Oh please, gimme a break about that McCain garbage:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,331651,00.html
McCain cheated, clinton cheated, what will the GOP do??????? OH NO!!!!!!!
The newest report has him traveling alone with her to florida no his private jet….
Like it matters….Hillary beat McCain in Maryland when she finished second with 27%. This year is a win for democrats no matter what happens. Thanks W.
yllas: Doug, Were you raised in a home with Christian parents?
On balance, yes, due to my mom being a Quaker and thus fairly “neutral,” as I think you mean ‘Christian,” while my dad had grown up Baptist – his family is almost all born-again/Evangelistic. My dad now goes to a Methodist church, and has never been one for forcing dogma on us kids.
Are you a atheist now?
No. The rest of your ranting…. I guess you’re welcome to it.
yllas: Remember your own words Doug about those “who think they have a good argument against abortion at this message board, but they don’t”?
Sure, take you, for example. I do believe that you think you have a good argument. However, you just come off as a fruitcake who even many religious people of the same stripe as you dismiss, because of your behavior.
There are Muslims who think that Sharia law should be applied in the US. I doubt you’d be for that. Likewise, vast multitudes of people don’t want you or people like you having any power over pregnant women.
……
Just remember Doug, your freedom is my slavery.
:: laughing :: No, yllas, your slavery comes from within your own mind. Can you point to others as having some cause, there? Perhaps, but the bottom line is that it’s you, after all is said and done.
……
Who are you to think your the absolute authority on FREEDOM Doug besides you and yourself Doug?
If I’d said that, then you’d have a case. Guess what?
The point is that the best authority for the pregnant woman is herself, first and foremost. Certainly not you. I leave it up to the woman, I don’t seek to take away her freedom in any respect, here, nor do I say that either choice will necessarily be best for a given woman. And what is best for that given woman is that you have no input into her decision.
……
Fact is Doug, you were pre-destined to be a silly atheist that is a product of failed Protestantism in your father and mother.
Again, you willfully blind yourself to the truth. I’m not an atheist. You are incapable of recognizing truth, most times. You can take any amoung of falsehoods, and build elaborate fantasies on them, some fairly creative, I grant you, but they have no application in reality.
……
They never believed either Doug.
:: yawn :: Wrong again, yllas.
Has anyone yet contacted Oprah about this?
I would like to hear her response.
Mike