by JivinJ
“The spiritual position,” said Natalia Karpovich, a leader of the State Duma committee focused on family, women and children, “should be that this is murder and the woman who does this commits a sin. Still, I want to stress it’s a woman’s choice.”
It’s a woman’s choice to commit murder?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“The spiritual position,” said Natalia Karpovich, a leader of the State Duma committee focused on family, women and children, “should be that this is murder and the woman who does this commits a sin. Still, I want to stress it’s a woman’s choice.”
Nothing about abortion shocks me anymore. “It’s murder, but that’s my choice.” OK.
Bobby – agreed. If she feels that way then it’s contradictory, much like a member of the Duma pronouncing upon spirituality in the first place.
Bobby, I used to pray and give out info to the girls that were going into the PP clinic on the day that they performed abortions (can’t get over there as much since I have a little one to care for..) and there were girls who were opposed to adopting out their babies because their excuse was that if they were to proceed with their pregnancy then they would just keep the baby. That would just boggled my mind! In other words, “If I wanted it,I would keep it but since I don’t, I am going to kill it.” Another reason for following through with the scheduled abortion was, “it’s legal” as though they equate it with being moral. People are not taught to really think anymore!
What a sweety-pie baby!!!!
“It’s murder, but that’s my choice.”
Ridiculous. Someday we’ll see it on a t-shirt. Lord have mercy on us all.
Yes, Janet, Lord have mercy.
Damning video of Democrats in 2004 arguing against regulation for Freddy Mac and fanny Mae:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/29/video-democrats-insist-nothing-wrong-at-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2004/
shame on the Democrats.
Yeah, isn’t it strange Doug?
Yeah Eileen, that is part of the reason why the pro-life movement wants abortion illegal- because since it is legal, people assume that it is OK, that it isn’t wrong. Some pro-choicers talk about how they would be willing to help pro-lifers in reducing the number of abortions, but the fact that it is legal really impels that there would be no reason to reduce them, at least morally speaking.
get a load of this statement (whatever would somg do?):
“This is the decision of a lifetime,” gynecologist Natalia Smirnova said. “It’s very important for me to show them the ultrasound picture of their fetuses. This stops most of them.”
Speaking in her private clinic while women in their 20s filled the waiting room outside, Smirnova pointed to pictures of fetuses taped to her office walls and described the conversation she holds with a would-be abortion patient.
“I ask her to please explain to me and give me the reasons why she can’t preserve her pregnancy. I’m not satisfied with, ‘I’m afraid.’ I want to hear the whole story. ‘What did the father-to-be tell you, what did your mother say?’ There were cases when I myself called her mother in another town. By appealing to her mother, her partner, the future father, you can often succeed in making her change her decision and preserve her pregnancy.”
This makes America and Canada look like cowards and even somewhat backward – abortionists here don’t want to face the facts. This merely proves Ian Gentles assertion that the politicized nature of abortion and the feminist ideology attached to abortion are killing babies and damaging women AND men in our countries.
Mostly sheltered from public or political discussions of abortion, they tended to describe the procedure as a medical decision that had surprising personal aftershocks.
here’s some more:
“You kill not only a child, a living being, but a part of yourself, something that was alive in you,” said Irina, a 25-year-old Muscovite who has had three abortions. The young women who were interviewed declined to give their last names. “There’s a trauma and a grief you suffer. You murder a child. It was much more difficult than I expected.“
Ah, duh? somehow the bolded statements make me sick. I think, if I remember correctly, murder is supposed to be difficult.
again, compared to our doctor’s backward and ideologue attitudes:
“Like on packs of cigarettes or bottles of alcohol, advertisements for abortion services should be obligated to warn about the consequences,” she said.
Jill the Washington post link is not viable…
here’s alink:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/09/26/DI2008092602714.html
sorry this is the actual article
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/09/29/ST2008092901290.html?sid=ST2008092901290&s_pos=list
What we are seeing in the proaborts saying “I think abortion is murder but I still support it”, IMO, is the effort of the extreme left to establish “new think morality”, in which bad is good and good is bad. Or, like the pop song says “Let the bad guy win every once in a while”.. except they want the bad guy to win every time.
It’s an effort to wipe out all objections to immorality, and establish a society that totally turns a blind eye to it. But then, how else can the ever make abortion “universally accepted”?
I don’t care if abortion is “universally accepted” as long as it’s legal for those who do accept it.
Doyle: I think in Russia they are just starting to realize that they are a dead nation. Last year was the first time in a long time that they’ve registered more live births than abortions, although no one knows for sure due to abortions in private clinics.
It’s the mindset of the young: babies are icky and not to be had at any cost. They just crimp your style.
I read a piece on a new feminism blog about how the very young (as in early 20’s, late teens) are getting themselves sterilized.
Feminists and their culture of death have succeeded in turning off an entire generation of women from child bearing.
To me it would be like renouncing or denying a very integral part of who I am – the essence of my femininity. But these women are very dis-integrated persons -and that does not bode well for society. Because it is women who generally are more integrated (ie body and soul and emotion) than men.
I don’t care if abortion is “universally accepted” as long as it’s legal for those who do accept it.
Posted by: Hal at September 29, 2008 3:55 PM
yeah, we KNOW what you think Hal. You practice what you preach…..
Doyle implied that the goal of those supporting the right to choose was to get abortion universily accepted. That’s not my goal.
No, Hal, I didn’t. I stated a more general theme than that, concerning the goal of the radical left in general to turn morality upside down. Of course, it just happens that achieving that goal would probably be the only way that abortion would be universally accepted, which happens to be the goal of most proabortion movement leaders.
Patricia, what is happening in Russia and many other western countries reminds me of what happened to the old Shaker religious sect: they eliminated themselves.
I think it should be legal to murder people named Hal. I don’t care if it’s universally accepted, but I think it should be legal for those who choose to kill people named Hal.
Anyone who disagrees is anti-choice, anti-freedom, anti-intelligence, and whatever other BS pro-abortion people say.
John L: you just can’t write stuff like that in your post @ 5:00pm.
I certainly don’t respect Hal for what he did to his kids, but you can’t want him murdered.
That makes you no better than he.
Besides, until Hal’s natural death, we can hope that he may experience remorse for what he and his wife have done to their children. God is very patient….
John, shame on you for being so hateful! Christian, indeed. I seem to recall Jesus praying for and forgiving those who tormented him AS HE WAS DYING ON THE CROSS! How dare you accuse others of being un-Christian?
John, I understand the point you were trying to make, and took no offense.
Have a fantastic day.
Addendum: It should also be legal to murder people named Leah.
Hahaha… it would seem that you folks don’t like dark, ironic humor. Considering that 4,000 innocent children are being killed every day in America alone, how can I not make jokes like that? To not joke about it is to go stark raving mad.
To not joke about it is to go stark raving mad.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at September 29, 2008 5:24 PM
Maybe you should have started joking a few years ago…..
See, Hal gets it. He knows what’s going on. He knows what he’s doing.
Hal, *Rimshot* It doesn’t matter, though, does it? When Obama gets in, the world is going to burn. We’re all doomed, anyway.
Am I still joking? Maybe!
Good for you Hal, it wasn’t hard to see the point John was trying to make.
Goodness, sometimes I think we want to bend over backwards so much to make the opposition feel welcomed, loved, please fill in the blank, that we loose site of important points.
John’s point was that to make Hal think, not wish Hal dead.
John: I think you are “bushed”.
You can’t make those kind of jokes because people who willingly and knowingly murder their own babies are sociopaths at the very least…
Is that what you are?
Patricia, are you arguing that millions of Americans are sociopaths?
Actually, I think I might agree with you.
Wow, John, you’ve proven a point… or something.
Hmm, I’m off. Alberta Immigrant Nomination Program awaits. I tried to bully my boyfriend into marrying me this weekend, but it looks like I’ll have to do this the hard way. :)
well John, really I was thinking about what I wrote:
Most women KNOW what it is to be pregnant – we are not stupid, we women KNOW that we have a new life inside of us.
I would hope that most women would at least acknowledge this, but today who knows.
Men on the other hand, maybe don’t realize it soo much. Maybe not until they see the ultrasound of their child, hear it’s heartbeat in the stethescope, or feel the baby move through the mom’s abdomen.
The humanity of the unborn is largely hidden from us.
At least during the fight for slavery people could see the suffering of the slaves, see their humanness – their flesh and blood
For the unborn – we don’t see it but women do know and feel it both intuitively and physically.
Why are abortionists so set against showing a woman an ultrasound? The Russian doctor stated that when she shows and ultra sound most women continue the pregnancy. The mothers are reminded of their baby’s humanity, others are shown the baby’s humanity.
When you kill another human being in cold blood because you have more power than they do and it’s expedient for you to do so, what DOES that make you?
If Hal’s kids could have fought back in the womb, what WOULD Hal and his wife have done?
These are the same Russian beurocrats who declared a federal holiday so the citizens could go home and procreate. Even these leftist geniuses could not ignore the handwriting on the wall any longer. Because of the abortion policies of the former communist government people were discouraged from bringing more children to birth. The result is Russia’s birhtrate is so far below replacement rate, their economy will not be able to support their graying population.
In the USA Hillary Clinton floated a trial balloon suggesting that Congress create a $5,000 per child baby bonus. We are looking at the same demographic crisis that Russia is. We have had two things that Russia does not. A strong free market based economy and an influx of millions of illegal aliens, who have provided relatively inexpensive labor and they consistently reproduce above the replacement rate.
This is one of the main reasons the federal government will not secure the border. More and more of these illegal aliens are being main streamed economically. They have social security numbers and they pay both income, property and sales tax.In many cases the illegal aliens will never collect on the money they pay into the social security system because they are using ssn’s that are not assigned to anyone or they are assigned to a dead person.
Now some leftist is probably going to accuse me of being a racist. That will make me a racist lame brained knuckle dragging neanderthal (RLBKDN). I might as well come clean and admit that I hate cats too. Narcissism wrapped in fur.
As long as we have classical guitars and tennis rackets cats will continue to have a reason to be. We all have to agree cats are not some God’s best work in the animal kingdom.
“When you kill another human being in cold blood because you have more power than they do and it’s expedient for you to do so, what DOES that make you?”
The lowest of the low. The kind of person I dedicate my life to opposing. A person so deranged and perverse as to justify murder by calling it “choice”. That’s just as arbitrary as saying that we should be able to murder people because they have certain names.
This world is ridiculous. I truly would not be surprised if it came to an end soon. Every Christian should be prepared, for the last day comes like a thief in the night.
Adult stem cells have been used to help treat patients with alcoholic liver cirrhosis.
Speaking of stem cell research, McCain/Palin just released a radio spot announcing their support for stem cell research. You can hear it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUG_5bQkOyQ
We have had two things that Russia does not. A strong free market based economy and an influx of millions of illegal aliens, who have provided relatively inexpensive labor and they consistently reproduce above the replacement rate.
Actually Russia does have an influx of immigrants – Muslim immigrants who are deeply hated. And they have VERY large families…
Leah,
John L. IMO was not being un-Christian but real/passionate. I asked about pacifism and being Christian to my oldest brother (a deeply religious person). He thought the theory sounded fine, but he wouldn’t think twice about killing an attacker on his family.
Similarly just how would you treat someone killing your bf (and then gloating/bragging about it)? There are times when such forgivness seems closer to lunacy.
John L’s sentiments are of a person immersed in such injustice vs your seeming trilvializing the event for ‘Christiam’ etiquette/political correctness.
comment4, http://qqxcpeyrw.justfree.com/125-zune-software-codecs.html “>quicktime for windows codec only, =((,
“This world is ridiculous. I truly would not be surprised if it came to an end soon. Every Christian should be prepared, for the last day comes like a thief in the night.”
Yes, we should be prepared. It could come very soon.
Why are abortionists so set against showing a woman an ultrasound?
Posted by: Patricia at September 29, 2008 5:45 PM
Patricia, I don’t think anyone has a problem with that at this point – isn’t it mandatory everywhere? What irks me is the propaganda and condensation that was behind it, but not the end result. You and I agree that women are smart enough to know what’s going on in their bodies. A sonogram/ultrasound just confirms that. What happens after that is up to her.
The clinic I volunteer at, everyone gets an sonogram. Since I’ve been there, I’ve seen one girl leave, when they told her she was having twins (not sure why that made a difference, but there you go).
She saw me before she left with her BF and waved goodbye to me. I waved back and wished her luck – sincerely. Didn’t bother me at all that she made a different choice, because that is the whole point – she chose.
cats are my favorite creatures on Earth.
“Why are abortionists so set against showing a woman an ultrasound?”
Because they don’t want the women to know that the abortion is destroying human life.
Danielle,
Do you work at an abortion mill? what do you do there?
you wouldn’t happen to be in san diego, would you, danielle?
I volunteer weekend hours at a Planned Parenthood clinic. I either help out in the recovery room, or I act as a liason between the patients and their escorts/family members. I am not a paid employee.
No, I’m not in San Diego.
Recovery room? I got to see one of those in Miami, but it wasn’t functioning at the time due to hurricane recovery. So it was empty.
Could you describe the different reactions the ladies have after their abortions?
Danille,
How do feel about your work? Have you considered working at CPC instead. You know, promoting life instead of death..
Patricia, I don’t think anyone has a problem with that at this point – isn’t it mandatory everywhere? What irks me is the propaganda and condensation that was behind it, but not the end result. You and I agree that women are smart enough to know what’s going on in their bodies. A sonogram/ultrasound just confirms that. What happens after that is up to her.
I don’t know where you work, but there are NO ultrasounds shown to women in Canada who are having abortions. If the ultra sound is used, the screen is discreetly turned away from the woman so that she does not have to see what she is killing….
I mean those arms and legs and the little body with the umbilical cord….
I don’t know where you work, but there are NO ultrasounds shown to women in Canada who are having abortions.
None? Like they don’t even have the option? That’s weird — I had the chance to see mine — but I’m in the US.
no, why would they show ultra sounds.
In fact you can’t even see the ultrasound when you want the pregnancy until the very end – at least that was my experience.
They also won’t tell you the sex unless they know you won’t be having an abortion…
I find it hard to believe that all women in the US are shown ultrasounds – this is not what I know since there is legislation pending re: showing this
Can anyone clarify this?
Patricia, I think most clinics nowadays offer you the option of seeing the ultrasound. I think most of the laws people want are to require the women to view the ultrasound — though some may be to require the clinics to merely offer them the chance to, since I’m not sure that they are currently required to do so.
Interesting @ 6:21 PM,
“Adult stem cells have been used to help treat patients with alcoholic liver cirrhosis.”
Speaking of stem cell research, McCain/Palin just released a radio spot announcing their support for stem cell research. You can hear it here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUG_5bQkOyQ
It did not differentiate between embryonic stem cell research and adult stem cell research. A bit vague, no?
Since this JivinJ includes an article about abortion…..
Operation Rescue reports that another woman has nearly died following a botched abortion at Tiller’s Abortion Mill in Wichita. She got sespis, the same infection that killed Holly Patterson, and that also killed Christin Gilbert.
Danielle: Since you so graciously “volunteer” at a PP facility, what goes through your head when you see the remains of the aborted babies? Don’t tell me youve never seen them, either.
Does it give you a warm fuzzy to know that you were an accomplice to the death of an innocent child? because the very fact that you are doing “volunteer work” (regardless of what you do there) makes you an accomplice to the muder of an innocent child, whether you choose to believe it or not, and regardless of the fact that abortion is legal.
You and everyone else who “works” for PP is dilussional if you think that what you are doing is actually admirable.
Wake up girl, and put your efforts into something more affirming for humanity than helping to destroy it, because that’s precisely what you’re doing…everyone knows it.
Danielle, just to keep you from getting down, I very much admire what you do. There was a really nice lady in the recovery room when I shook off my anesthesia.
Alexandra,
Have you had an abortion?
this is interesting…it always seems to me that the most vocal supporters of abortion are women who’ve had them and others who’ve been a party to at least one.
Subject: Fwd: Fw: OBAMA’S ‘NOT EXACTLY’S
1.) Selma Got Me Born – NOT EXACTLY, your parents felt safe enough to have you
in 1961 – Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google’
Obama Selma ‘ for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various
untruths.)
2.) Father Was A Goat Herder – NOT EXACTLY, he was a privileged, well educated
youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan Government.
3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter – NOT EXACTLY, he was part of one of the
most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.
4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom – NOT EXACTLY, your cousin
Raila Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate
election in 2007, in Kenya . It is the first widespread violence in decades. The
current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and
establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga’s
follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on
the phone.
Obama’s cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim
law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned
Christians’ homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a Christian
church where they took shelter.. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin before the election
process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see what you get. No one wants
to know the truth.
5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian – NOT EXACTLY, she does her daily
Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interviews. Not to mention,
Christianity wouldn’t allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.
6. ) My Name is African Swahili – NOT EXACTLY, your name is Arabic and ‘Baraka’
(from which Barack came) means ‘blessed’ in that language. Hussein is also
Arabic and so is Obama. Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he
would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President.
Barack Hussein Obama is 50% Caucasian from his mother’s side and 43.75% Arabic
and 6.25% African Negro from his father’s side. While Barack Hussein Obama’s
father was from Kenya , his father’s family was mainly Arabs.. Barack Hussein
Obama’s father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father’s birth
certificate even states he’s Arab, not African Negro). From….and for
more….go to…..
http://www.arcadeathome.com/newsboy.phtml?Barack_Hussein_Obama_-_Arab-American,_only_6.25%25_African
7.) I Never Practiced Islam – NOT EXACTLY, you practiced it daily at school,
where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years, until
your wife made you change, so you could run for office.
4-3-08 Article ‘Obama was ‘quite religious in islam” http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60559
8.) My School In Indonesia was Christian – NOT EXACTLY, you were registered as
Muslim there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your
own book). February 28, 2008 . Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago: Mr.
Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them
with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated
(it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to
prayer as ‘one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.’ This is just one
example of what Pamela is talking about when she says ‘Obama’s narrative is
being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts.’
9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian – NOT EXACTLY, not one teacher says you could
speak the language.
10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia , I Have More Foreign Experience – NOT
EXACTLY, you were there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn’t even speak the
language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons.
11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs – NOT EXACTLY, except for Africa
(surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere
else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.
12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion – NOT EXACTLY, you were quite
content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of
struggle to identify – your classmates said you were just fine.
13.) An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office – NOT EXACTLY, Ebony has yet to
find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did, exist.
14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My outlook on Life – NOT EXACTLY, Life has
yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn’t, and never did,
exist.
15.) I Won’t Run On A National Ticket In ’08 – NOT EXACTLY, here you are,
despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then,
and you are all about having experience first.
16.) Voting ‘Present’ is Common In Illinois Senate – NOT EXACTLY, they are
common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.
17.) Oops, I Misvoted – NOT EXACTLY, only when caught by church groups and
Democrats, did you beg to change your misvote.
18.) I Was A Professor Of Law – NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer ON
LEAVE.
19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer – NOT EXACTLY, you were a senior lecturer ON
LEAVE.
20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill – NOT EXACTLY, you didn’t write
it, introduce it, change it, or create it.
21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass – NOT EXACTLY, it took just 14 days from
start to finish.
22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill – NOT EXACTLY, your bill was rejected by your
own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation – mainly because of your
Nuclear donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.
23.) I Have Released My State Records – NOT EXACTLY, as of March, 2008, state
bills you sponsored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the
special interests pork hidden within.
24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess – NOT EXACTLY, you were part of
a large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens . You failed to mention
anyone else but yourself, in your books.
25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America – NOT EXACTLY, your 111 economic
policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted
against your own bill.
26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois – NOT EXACTLY, even your own
supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.
27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year – NOT EXACTLY, they were not YOUR
bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to
assist you in a future bid for higher office.
28.) No One on my campaign contacted Canada about NAFTA – NOT EXACTLY, the
Canadian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your
campaign had with them.
29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism – NO T EXACTLY, you missed the Iran Resolution vote
on terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of
Israel .
30.) I Want All Votes To Count – NOT EXACTLY, you said let the delegates decide.
31.) I Want Americans To Decide – NOT EXACTLY, you prefer caucuses that limit
the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small
windows of time.
32.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate – NOT EXACTLY, you passed 26, most
of which you didn’t write yourself.
33.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics – NOT EXACTLY, you used tactics to
eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.
34.) I Don’t Take PAC Money – NOT EXACTLY, you take loads of it.
35.) I don’t Have Lobbyists – NOT EXACTLY, you have over 47 lobbyists, and
counting.
36.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad – NOT EXACTLY, your own
campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.
37.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq – NOT EXACTLY, you weren’t in office to
vote against it AND you have voted to fund it every single time.
38.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care – NOT EXACTLY, your plan
leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don’t have to buy it
GOD HELP US IF WE JUST SIT IDLY BY AND LET THIS PERSON BECOME OUR NEXT
PRESIDENT. IT WOULD BE SUICIDAL FOR US TO DO NOTHING TO PREVENT THIS FROM
HAPPENING. IT’S TIME THE ‘SILENT MAJORITY’ TAKE A STAND! GET OUT AND VOTE! –
PLEASE!
I don’t know what keeps happening – I try to post a response 2x and the site times out. At this point I’ll just summarize my responses to the questions directed to me:
-I enjoy my work. I feel like I needed to be as close as possible to process to be able to defend it and discuss it honestly, and I am and I still do defend the right, fiercely.
-The reco room is crazy intense and draining. Think of it like an ER. There’s waking patients in an anethesia haze, there’s pain from cramping, there’s quiet reflection, there’s hand holding, puking, crying. Everything. I don’t pretend to know all the reasons why women go through what they do. My job is to help out – either with the clean up or hold a hand.
-I don’t see aborted remains because I’m not in the procedure room.
-I wouldn’t work in a CPC because the point there is to prevent the abortion. The point for me is not to prevent an abortion if this is someone’s decision. There’s no judgement either way.
When Germans finally realized the horror of what they had done to their fellow Jewish citizens in the death camps, their typical response was “we were only following orders”……
I just cannot imagine the thinking that goes into volunteering at a PP deathatorium. To equate that as an act of compassion is hard to comprehend. The poison of Liberalism is a disease that not only corrupts, it is like an opium addiction that distorts reality and common sense.
Jeremiah 17:9 “ The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
wow…that second point you posted really sounds lovely. Sure sounds like you’re helping in a beautiful process that doesn’t rip up babies and the mothers carrying them, leaving permanently dead offspring and physically and emotionally scarred women in your wake. You sure must care about women a lot to “help” in such a way. It’s a good thing it sounds like you get a lot of edification from thinking that you “help” these women so much, or else you might not do the great work you do.
With a friend like you, who needs enemies? Please, never do me any favors.
Danielle – I fully support you. No one should interrogate you, simply because you work for a health clinic. They are nothing more than perverts who have abortion fetishes.
Danielle, thank you for all that you do. As someone who has gone through several pregnancy scares (none of them positive), it relieves me to know that people like you would be there if I ever had to make that decision. I wish I had more time to volunteer at PP. So thanks.
Also, I know someone referenced this somewhere up-thread. I’m one of those women who really dislikes kids and has chosen not to have any. Tomorrow, I’m getting an IUD to keep that eventuality from happening. Just because I don’t want children doesn’t mean I’m not in touch with my femininity. I’m more than my uterus.
i actually agree with part of that. i have my tubes tied because, as much as i love my kids, i have other things to do.
but, i don’t think that believing it’s ok to kill your kids if you do end up with them is ok. I didn’t have to give up my heart to get out from under the shadow of my uterus, and I think it’s sad that women these days seem to feel as though they have to kill their children to be productive, intelligent, and valuable members of society. Killing your kids doesn’t make you valid, it just means you failed.
Danielle – I fully support you. No one should interrogate you, simply because you work for a health clinic. They are nothing more than perverts who have abortion fetishes.
Posted by: Yo La Tango at September 30, 2008 1:12 AM
__________________
A health clinic? Just whose health are you talking about. Certainly you can’t be talking about the health of the baby when the purpose of the clinic is to kill the baby? Oh, I get it. It’s not a baby……because of course, that’s what you say despite the mountain, no universe of evidence that it IS A BABY!
The comments of you pro-aborts make one very, very ill, not only for their vile content but for their ignorance.
And I don’t conisider someone reviled by abortion and taking a stand against it as having a fetish as you conclude. No, rather, it is someone who unashamedley comes on this blog and boasts about the right to murder that has got a fetish that is so narccistically tied to their ego they can only see themsleves at the center of everything….gods unto themselves, for themselves and by themselves. This Yo La is evidence of the lost state of your soul and entanglement with evil.
This kind of scoffing at the sacred has been seen before in the world and this too shall pass.
I wouldn’t have an abortion so I could be a “productive, intelligent or valuable” member of society. I’d have an abortion because I don’t want kids: I can’t provide for them, emotionally or physically, nor do I have a desire to. It isn’t that I feel that having kids would make me somehow less of a productive member of society. I just don’t like kids. There’s a big difference.
Birth control fails sometimes. It happens.
If we really want the skinny on all things Russian we should call up Sarah Palin. Maybe she knows a Russian exorcist? Just a thought.
HisMan: I’m sure you’re a nice fellow, but ease up on the omnipotence. God has that power not you. Just because you speak with God, does not mean your speak for God.
Danielle and Human Abstract, you are a blight on procreation. May God never burden either of you with a baby or a husband.
X, do you consider me one of “the most vocal supporters of abortion?”
Elizabeth, it was complicated. I share relevant information when people ask — some months ago I answered questions Mary had about the clinic and the anesthesia used, and I answered when PIP asked how soon women typically know they’re pregnant, things like that. It’s not something I’m ashamed of or try to hide. But this isn’t my blog, and the circumstances in which I got pregnant, as well as the reasons I eventually went to an abortion clinic, are things I don’t usually go out of my way to explain anymore. People have called me a sociopathic bitch, told me to go rip the legs off mice, etc. And I’m kind of done with all that, at least for now. It’s kind of tiring.
Dear Danielle,
I admire your cahonays in coming here. Really. As a moderator I will do my best to keep it civil. I know you have to keep telling yourself you are “helping” and thinking that you are somehow fiercely protecting the “right” to kill.
I don’t buy it. Well, I did buy it. I was a young girl in the recovery room once. Horrifying, I tell you. ALL of the girls were crying, some were wailing and yelling “My baby!!” There was no one there to hold my hand.
Danielle,
Do you follow up after you have helped these women? 2, 3, 15 years later? I know 3 years after my abortion I was coming up with all kinds of ways to kill myself. But, hey that’s me. A hand to hold might have been nice then. By the by, my daughter Aubrey would be 18 now. I imagine a beautiful girl full of life and heading off to college. Instead I listen to story after story of abortion regret and continue to heal from mine.
You are woefully misinformed about Pregnancy Care Centers. They are telling women about fetal development, doing ultrasounds, holding hands AND walking beside women for years! Providing baby clothes, formula, housing, rent, help with babysitting. Support and friendship through an unplanned pregnancy.
I dunno, Danielle. I am praying that you leave that place.
Alexandra,
I am sorry that people have said such horrible things to you. I didn’t know you had an abortion or at least missed those posts. There are many here that care about you!! ME!
I am hoping today is cockroach free and that you are not stuck in the rain somewhere. Peace.
I dunno, Danielle. I am praying that you leave that place.
Posted by: Carla at September 30, 2008 6:57 AM
me too!
Good morning, Carla! :-D
Also, I know someone referenced this somewhere up-thread. I’m one of those women who really dislikes kids and has chosen not to have any. Tomorrow, I’m getting an IUD to keep that eventuality from happening. Just because I don’t want children doesn’t mean I’m not in touch with my femininity. I’m more than my uterus.
Posted by: HumanAbstract at September 30, 2008 1:13 AM
No HA: you have NO idea what it means to be feminine. To be feminine means to be open to the gift of others – one of the ways in which this manifests itself is that of being open to gift of having a baby.
Unfortunately you have failed to recognize this important fact, that your body is designed to facilitate this openness, in a way that is NOT possible for men.
Go get your IUD, but in the end you are harming only yourself. You truly have my sympathy because you view your body as your enemy. (You have learned well from your feminist sisters.)
-I enjoy my work. I feel like I needed to be as close as possible to process to be able to defend it and discuss it honestly, and I am and I still do defend the right, fiercely.
Hi Danielle,
Why is it so important for you to do this? What is the right, exactly, in your own words that you are defending?
Patricia,
You are wrong. Just because we are “females” and are “feminine” does NOT mean we have to want or like kids. You don’t expect men to have to like or want kids, do you?
I hate it when people think women are crazy because heaven forbid, they don’t want or like children, and oh, they MUST be messed up somehow to ignore their ALMIGHTY maternal instinct.
Not only that, you chide and condemn people who get abortions and then turn around and scold others for getting an IUD or using contraception which will PREVENT the abortion in the first place!
And just to clarify, Patricia, I am a feminist and I really want kids when I’m financially stable and ready for them. In the meantime, I’m going to prevent pregnancy with any means (which may or may not include abortion…at this moment, probably not).
I sounded a lot like HA my first year of college. the oldest of six kids, I felt like I had done my part for child-rearing, and I wanted no more. However, I had a pregnancy scare at one point. My first thought wasn’t abortion. Just because I do not want chldren does not mean I should be allowed to consider it a right to take the life of one, and there would’ve been plenty of people waiting in the wings to take that child so that he/she could’ve continued that life.
and alexandra…you’re here, aren’t you?
Now that I have my own kids, I find it hard to understand someone (male or female) that doesn’t want children. However, that is MY lack of understanding, not their character flaw. There is nothing wrong with not wanting kids, and I have no problem with people who feel that way, as long as they don’t feel that their lack of desire for children is an entitlement to kill any that might come about.
kbhvac: As long as we have classical guitars and tennis rackets cats will continue to have a reason to be. We all have to agree cats are not some God’s best work in the animal kingdom.
I don’t know, KB – cats are pretty cool. And strong too. Trying to hold a cat and give it a pill that it really does not want to take is an adventure.
Stephanie,
I expected the man I married to have, like and want kids!! He does!! :)
Crisis Pregnancy centers are wonderful places of help for women who are scared and feel they are alone. That’s why I donate items every year at Christmas time.
They actually tell the TRUTH about fetal development (heart beat at 18 days, brain waves at around 40 days) and some of them even have access to 3D and 4D ultrasounds, which give a beautiful view of the unborn child. And I’ve read that women that go there and are able to view these, are more likely to chose life.
And local Right to Life groups also assist with things like rent, finding a good doctor, and anything else they can do.
In my local right to life group’s newsletter, I read that someone donated time & $$$ to help fix a young woman’s car so she could get to her job or doctor’s appointments.
They also have post abortion support groups for women who are grieving after their abortions.
Carla, I care about you too! :) No roaches today, at least not in m apartment, but I’m scared for the winter. I blame it on my upstairs neighbor, whose kitchen cleanliness, I secretly suspect, is not up to par.
I agree with you about CPCs, by the way. I wish more pro-choicers actually looked into what they do instead of just reflexively assuming they’re bad or coercive or something.
X, it seems funny that you think my mere presence here makes me one of the most vocal supporters of abortion. I don’t mean in a bad way! It’s just strange to me because I feel like I almost never even say anything about abortion, even here.
Stephanie I have to go at this time to do some errands.
Please reread my post. Having children and being open to children is an integral part of what it means to be a woman. It is not the only way to be open to the gift of others. But it IS the way our emotional and physical being has been designed.
I don’t consider a sexually active woman with multiple partners to be a demonstration of what it means to be a woman. The fact that many women behave like this today doesn’t make it right. I believe this is degrading to women and women seem to accept this as the norm which I find shocking. The lack of self-respect women have for themselves and men is sad.
If you were a TRUE feminist Stephanie you would wait until marriage for sex when you can truly give the gift of yourself to your husband and then your worries about pregnancy wouldn’t exist because you would be in an environment that is supportive and protective of both yourself and your baby. (pls don’t start with the bad marriage stuff- it’s tiresome.)
You too, view your body as your enemy. It is not. It is a gift and you should treat it as such.
I will check back later today.
God bless
Gotta borrow another quote and yank it around a bit:
“The best thing about the pro-life movement is pro-lifers. The worst thing about the pro-life movement is pro-lifers.”
Kudos to carder, Carla, and other pro-lifers who reached out to Danielle with compassion and understanding. Blessings on Patricia for her encouragement of Alexandra. As pro-lifers, we must not give in to anger. Life is a beautiful, natural blessing! We should be positive and encouraging.
For those of you who are Christians, being positive is actually a command from Scripture. See 1st Peter 3:15-16 as one example.
To those of you who responded with condemnation — and I won’t name names — shame on you. Not only are you confirming the negative stereotypes of pro-lifers (and thereby contributing to pro-choice arguments), but you are also being cruel.
Not only that, but you’re not going to get anywhere. Screaming at a clinic volunteer will not convince her to leave the clinic. In fact, you’re just going to give her more reasons to stay! Pro-choicers (much like pro-lifers) can be stubborn people, and shrieking at them is only going to make them re-affirm their commitments to The Cause. Imagine how you respond when a pro-choicer screams, “Keep your rosaries off of my ovaries!” Does that slogan make you question your commitment to Life, or does it merely reinforce your commitment?
If we want to win this fight for Life, we need to have tough minds and tender hearts. We need to stand for truth, but we must make our stand in ways that do not give unnecessary offense.
“Danielle – I fully support you. No one should interrogate you, simply because you work for a health clinic.
Posted by: Yo La Tango at September 30, 2008 1:12 AM”
YLT, health clinics are regulated by State departments of health to protect the health and safety of patients. Abortion clinics have fought all attempts to be regulated as health clinics. Gee, I wonder why.
“In the meantime, I’m going to prevent pregnancy with any means (which may or may not include abortion…at this moment, probably not).
Posted by: Stephanie at September 30, 2008 8:00 AM”
Stephanie, I don’t know where to start with this one. I think you mean you’ll prevent CHILDbirth by any means necessary. Because abortion is a form of BIRTH control, not contraception. You can’t have an abortion if you’re not pregnant (even though my extremely pro-abortion law professor once helped Illinois conduct sting operations against abortion clinics that would take money and “perform abortions” on women who weren’t pregnant). Safe and legal indeed.
To Naaman at 8:46: Great points. This should be repeated often in threads. Hal (more understandably) and Doug (less clear to me) seem to get a few peoples’ hackles up on the board.
All I know is, Bobby, Doug, and I had a good debate a few weeks ago about fertility clinics and the creation of embryos. While we agreed to disagree, you never know when such civil conversations will spark a conversion of mind and heart.
Danielle – I fully support you. No one should interrogate you, simply because you work for a health clinic. They are nothing more than perverts who have abortion fetishes.
Posted by: Yo La Tango at September 30, 2008 1:12
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I’ll tell you who has the “abortion fetishes”, it’s the likes of tango, Danielle, HA, Hal, etc., that come here and post on pro life websites, just so they can rub those bloody, deadly abortions in the faces of those who see the deaths of those babies as beyond sad.
It takes a sick and dead heart to kill a child, that should be enough, but there’s something worse about those who come to pro life websites and extole the virtues of dead babies.
It is beyond difficult for me to be cordial to someone who has killed their own children, and I always try to be truthful. I suppose those two things just don’t mesh well.
Naaman:
You have an odd view of Christianity.
As Christians, we are not necessarily called to be positive, we are called to bring people to repentance by proclaiming the truth.
Jesus was not killed because he was a nice and popular guy. He told the truth and many times it was unpopular and offensive. Ever heard teh phrase, “you brood of vipers”? Wow, I bet that was real, real positive.
You see, telling people about their sin, as God defines sin in His word is actually the most positive thing one can do. Although, one not seeking light would see it only as a negative.
2 Corinthians 2:15 “Our lives are a Christ-like fragrance rising up to God. But this fragrance is perceived differently by those who are being saved and by those who are perishing.”
2 Corinthians 2:14-16 “To those who are perishing, we are a dreadful smell of death and doom. But to those who are being saved, we are a life-giving perfume. And who is adequate for such a task as this?”
2 Corinthians 2:15-17 “If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing.”
Your misuse of the quote “1 Peter 3:15-16
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.” is evidence that you do not understand what being a Christian is.
As the verse points out it is referring to how to react to someone who “asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have”. If that indeed happened, of course I would say because I realized I was a hopeless sinner and because of God’s great love He died for me”.
And how does telling someone what they are doing is wrong not gentle and respectful?
We are salt and light. Salt is both a healer and an irritant. It is a healer to those willing to it accept God’s word and an irritant to those who reject it.
It is not my job to determine the outcome of a person’s reaction to the truth. My job is to proclaim the whole Gospel of Christ.
Remember this: The Gospel or “Good News” is only good news to those that accept it and very, very bad news for those that reject it.
So, your mischaracterization of us who called what Danielle does what it is…evil… were simply stating the truth.
I’m not a pro-lifer to be popular. I’m a pro-lifer because it’s the right thing to do. Let the chips fall where they may.
I posted this to yllas a few days ago, after he accused me of liking prochoicers better than prolifers…
(X, I know you’re not Christian so this won’t really
apply, but…)
anywho, this was my response as to why it’s important to hate abortion but not the prochoicers…
You got much of that right…except it’s NOT PL=PC.
It’s ProLIFERS = ProCHOICERS…God doesn’t love pro lifers more than prochoicers…and neither do I.
I’ve said it many times. I HATE abortion. But I do not HATE people.
There are plenty of pro choice sites I could go to if that was my goal.
I choose to post here, because we have both.
You’d have to ask Elizabeth, Bethany, Val, Bobby, Patricia, PIP and many, many more, if they feel that I love prochoicers more than them. Or if I deal with them fairly. Let them speak for themselves…
I’m honestly sorry that you don’t see that. Jesus did not come for the healthy, but for the sick. He did’nt go around pattin’ all of His followers on the back. He hung out with those that needed Him. I’m just following His example. Jesus ate with His friends yes. But when He ate with sinners and his friends objected, He didn’t chastise the sinners. He chastised his friends.
36
10 11 A Pharisee invited him to dine with him, and he entered the Pharisee’s house and reclined at table.
37
Now there was a sinful woman in the city who learned that he was at table in the house of the Pharisee. Bringing an alabaster flask of ointment,
38
she stood behind him at his feet weeping and began to bathe his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them, and anointed them with the ointment.
39
When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.”
40
Jesus said to him in reply, “Simon, I have something to say to you.” “Tell me, teacher,” he said.
41
“Two people were in debt to a certain creditor; one owed five hundred days’ wages 12 and the other owed fifty.
42
Since they were unable to repay the debt, he forgave it for both. Which of them will love him more?”
43
Simon said in reply, “The one, I suppose, whose larger debt was forgiven.” He said to him, “You have judged rightly.”
44
Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? When I entered your house, you did not give me water for my feet, but she has bathed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
45
You did not give me a kiss, but she has not ceased kissing my feet since the time I entered.
46
You did not anoint my head with oil, but she anointed my feet with ointment.
47
So I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven; hence, she has shown great love. 13 But the one to whom little is forgiven, loves little.”
48
He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
Luke 7:36-48
Posted by: mk at September 27, 2008 7:43 AM
Since leaving my post last night I’ve reviewed the replies since – and, I’m not surprised, obvs, since this is a pro-life board. The intent of telling you what my role is as a volunteer and what I see is not to antagonize, it is simply a response to a direct question. I’m here to speak honestly about my position, my experiences and speak with some level of civility, since we’re adults (I think) and, I know we have many common threads to our humanity (at least I can see it, not sure of anyone else).
You ask me what its like in a reco room and I’m going to tell you. I could lie and say its rainbows and puppies, everyone hopping off the gurney and skipping back downstairs to continue their lives, to keep up a false pretense of irreverence that some here believe the PC position to be…but it’s not like that. At all. Abortion is serious, and everyone there understands that. I can tell you this, though – no woman is the same. No one has the same reaction. Some cry first, then when I see them an hour later she’s got her clothes on, smile on her face, ready to go. Some are kinda flip in the begging, bragging how they don’t have cramps, until they sit for a while, then their mood changes. No, I cannot tell you what happens after – 2 years, 20 years down the road. If they are struggling with regret, I hope they find some peace. But that is not everyone’s journey.
For those of you who had a positive experience with clinic staff/nurse/volunteer during your abortion, that’s great to hear. Some of the girls are so out of it you wonder if they remember the interaction with you. You can call me all kinds of names, call me culpable to murder – whatever. But I ask you, regardless of your views on abortion, if you were in a room with a woman immediately after this procedure – naked, bleeding, crying – would you not extend your hand for a moment of compassion? You could not put away your judgment to help this woman stand up? Well that’s what I do. That’s what anyone would do, right? The difference is that I think she has a right to do what she just did. I am not a social worker, so I don’t have access to any history on the patients. I don’t know if it’s her first time or 4th. If she’s 8 weeks or 12 weeks. Some are already mothers. Maybe some are irresponsible, or too young and have craptastic boyfriends who fidget petulantly downstairs and ask what’s taking so long (sometime I deal with them, too). The point is, I don’t know what her story is because its not my business. You decided to have an abortion and I’m here to help through the journey in the small ways that a part time volunteer can.
Danielle,
You were not ‘thrown” into the situation and find yourself reaching out your hand in compassion…I would do the same.
You CHOSE to be there, and therein lies the difference.
Your rationalization of your actions is akin to someone saying, I know that that guy is a rapist. I know rape is wrong. But look at me! See how compassionate I am? I will go with the rapist, and I will hold the hands of the women while they are being raped. This doesn’t make me culpable in the rape, it makes me a sensitive caring person. Someone has to be there for these women…
What we are saying is that we would rather you be there before the rape or after the rape. Volunteering at a CPC would help to prevent the rape/abortion.
Bishop Sheen calls this “False Compassion”…
Well said mk.
Danielle,
I don’t think volunteers should be doing the work you describe at the clinic. Why don’t you volunteer at a real hospital where they support life, not death? I don’t know how you can justify what you do.
“Wow…look at all the women who are coming in here crying, vomitting, bleeding, and otherwise obviously injured. This is great, and should totally be allowed to continue. So, I will pay no mind to the man in the next room harming them in such a way, and hold their hands because I’m such a great person.”
This is akin to a mother cutting off her kid’s hand, then giving herself @$$pats for being such a great mom because she kissed the booboo afterward, and proceeding to cut off the wrist.
The point is, I don’t know what her story is because its not my business. You decided to have an abortion and I’m here to help through the journey in the small ways that a part time volunteer can.
Posted by: Danielle at September 30, 2008 10:30 AM
“A journey”? Is that what they call it? It’s not a journey, it’s an abortion.
“You decided to have an abortion and I’m here to help through the journey in the small ways that a part time volunteer can.
Posted by: Danielle at September 30, 2008 10:30 AM”
———————————————-
Kinda like, I know you decided to do drugs and let me help you inject that syringe into you.
Abortion is journey down the path to Oblivion…
“No judgements” – hey you already did, you support the abortion process and everything that goes with it.
You don’t see the aborted remains…hey, you’re a volunteer…Go SEE IT! And face the TRUTH of what you are supporting/ volunteering.
Are you afraid of seeing the remains? Maybe a little finger here, a body part there..even a baby face?
You are deluding yourself with the support of your pro-abort ilk here.
This is akin to a mother cutting off her kid’s hand, then giving herself @$$pats for being such a great mom because she kissed the booboo afterward, and proceeding to cut off the wrist.
I don’t think that the fact that women are often physically miserable immediately after an abortion means that abortion is bad. Obviously you think abortion is bad for other reasons, which is understandable — but say that.
When my mom woke up from a major surgery she had, she was in a ‘recovery room’ of sorts. There were other people in beds there, in various stages of waking up. She couldn’t speak or move but she could cry, and she sure as heck did that. It was horrible. But the surgery was, overall, a good thing. It’s not like I was sitting there going, “I can’t believe we let that man hurt her like this!”
My mother’s life was saved by her surgery; a life is taken in every abortion. That, not the physical suffering, is the difference. Your problem with Danielle’s work is not that she is helping women recover from a painful surgery. It’s that she is helping them recover from an abortion. It seems unproductive to focus on the physical suffering, as though that is what you object to.
Having my son was a major ordeal. It was quite challenging and a bit painful, and when it was done, I cried. I cried in joy. I cried because all that effort, all that pain, was now worth a beautiful baby boy; a priceless little life.
these women are being damaged.
“these women are being damaged.
Posted by: xalisae at September 30, 2008 11:42 AM”
————————————–
I Agree.
Physically, emotionally and psychologically….
Great posts, Danielle.
Doug,
It might do you some good to visit a clinic to see what really goes on.
Carla,
I’m glad your husband want and likes children, because I think you would not be happy otherwise. And I don’t mean that in a bad way, just that it wouldn’t make sense for someone who doesn’t want kids to marry someone who does.
Patricia,
Maybe it’s just a difference in thinking. I don’t view my body as the enemy; I love my body the way it is, even if it does have a little more padding that I like. However, just because I have a uterus does not mean I HAVE to like or want children. It may be a physical feature of how women were designed, but it’s certainly not an emotional one – that depends on the woman. And your definition of a true feminist is different than mine; your definition (or mine, for that matter) is not necessarily correct.
I have a question for you. Do you find it acceptable for men to have more than one sexual partner? Is it less acceptable for a man or woman to sleep around, or equally so?
Michael,
I misspoke. I should have clarified to preventing pregnancy via contraceptives. Bottom line is, I want to make myself not pregnant until I’m ready for it.
“You don’t see the aborted remains…hey, you’re a volunteer…Go SEE IT! And face the TRUTH of what you are supporting/ volunteering.
Are you afraid of seeing the remains? Maybe a little finger here, a body part there..even a baby face?”
Hmm…I remember people on this site challenging me and others to look at an abortion. When I actually did it (through links provided by PL people), I got called nasty names. I said it wasn’t as bloody as I thought it would be, I felt bad for one of the girls, but my view was unchanged.
I was called sick, disgusting, in denial, a poor excuse for a human being (although not in such nice terms), incapable of compassion, accused of having a fetish for abortions (WTF?!?! They ASKED me to look at them!!) and deemed not worth listening to.
So it’s pretty much lose-lose situation (kind of). If you don’t look, you’re accused of “not being able to face the truth” and if you do then you’re labled “sick and disgusting”. I guess the only win is if you look at change your mind (meaning, if it’s in PL favor).
Stephanie…I find it rather strange for a person NOT to be disturbed when seeing the actual remains of an abortion process….
Unless, of course, that person has been desensitized to the violence of killing another human being….ie like SoMG, perhaps?
RSD,
I didn’t LIKE looking at it if that’s what you’re getting at. I want to be in a (possibly emergency) health profession, so seeing bloody things/remains don’t bother me that much.
why, stephanie? how will you have concern for one unborn baby who is wanted by its mother and none for the unwanted child? why try to save lives when to you, some are not worth saving?
I don’t want kids so I’m not feminine? How does that make sense? Would you judge a man for not wanting children? Our bodies, male and female, are made for making children. The only difference is that the woman has to carry the child. It’s not special, or a mircle, it’s biology. I want no part of that. Abstinence teaches that you can choose not to have sex, despite the fact that sex is a natural, biological process. I’m choosing not to have kids, despite the fact that procreation is a natural process. How can you praise one and condem the other?
Sorry for any spelling mistakes; I’m posting from my iPod and I’m still in considerable pain from the iud insertion.
why, stephanie? how will you have concern for one unborn baby who is wanted by its mother and none for the unwanted child? why try to save lives when to you, some are not worth saving?
Posted by: xalisae at September 30, 2008 2:33 PM
You really don’t understand this?
It is very possible, in fact common, to have concern for children and adults, but support a woman’s right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. There is no inconsistancy there.
HumanAbstract,
What is it about kids that you don’t like? The work that goes into shaping another human being? What? I’m just curious to be honest.
Alexandra,
I wasn’t trying to pry, I just didn’t know you had had an abortion. Maybe I missed the threads where you talked about details or something, but I just didn’t know. I don’t need to know the details, but I’m sorry you found yourself in a position to think abortion was the best option for you.
HumanAbstract,
I think it’s sad when either gender adamantly doesn’t want kids. Or isn’t even open to the possibility of it. Only because I don’t get it. So it’s not that I think you’re a bad person, I just don’t understand that line of thinking is all. I’m sure plenty of people don’t get my line of thinking either. I want however many little bebe’s I’m blessed with.
Oh but you are wrong about one thing: It is VERY VERY special to carry another human life in your body. To watch it grow in and out of the womb is one of the most special things in the world, and to know that you helped MAKE that. That’s VERY special.
Only if you’re able to delude yourself with words like “choice” instead of “deciding to kill”, and “termination” instead of “murder”, all while ignoring exactly what it is that is happening inside a body that is with child. I’m too much of a realist to do that, Hal. I’ve had too much experience. The day you carry a pregnancy to term, give birth, and can still tell me that there was no life worthy of protection inside you before that birth, I might be willing to reconsider.
It is very possible, in fact common, to have concern for children and adults, but support a woman’s right to choose to terminate a pregnancy. There is no inconsistancy there.
Posted by: Hal at September 30, 2008 2:45 PM
ya don’t think so? Hah, think again buddy. Your position is completely irrational, but you know this….
Stephanie: you are quite right that it is a differenc in thinking but my way IS correct because it is true to how we as women are designed. There are now many studies that prove that random hook-ups and repeated sexual encounters, and serial sexual relationships have a serious emotional and physical toll on women. Why? Because women are not designed to function this way and we are called to teach men not to function this way either. We are much more integrated than men are.
And it is NOT acceptable for either sex to sleep around. Why? Because we are taking a human person and making them an object (no matter how hard we try not to) which we use for our own gratification. And if you doubt this, ask any man who has these types of relationships if he respects the women he has sex with and if he would marry them. I’m betting you a case of beer, he would not. It is never permissible to use another person. We are called to love one another.
Elizabeth, I didn’t mean to make you feel bad for asking! You’re a sweetheart.
Without going into too many details, the doctor diagnosed the pregnancy as nonviable because of both my hormone levels and, at a certain point, an inability to see a heartbeat; and I was really severely ill during the pregnancy so I didn’t want to wait to miscarry naturally since it felt like it was taking forever. I called a private abortion clinic and explained the details, then asked if they would perform a vacuum aspiration and how much it would cost. They said they would.
The pregnancy was unplanned and I was scared, but I never really got to a point where I considered abortion vs. adoption vs. keeping the baby. Like I said, it was a complicated situation.
Alexandra…that is totally different. Not even in the same ballpark as a 100% purely elective abortion. I’m sorry.
No, I understand that, X. When I first responded to Elizabeth I was thinking of her question, “Have you had an abortion?” so I just replied, “It was complicated.” I’m sorry I wasn’t clearer.
I stay away from the particulars in most conversations because either way I tend to offend people unintentionally, but if a question comes up about showing ultrasounds to women getting abortions, giving anesthesia to women getting abortions, etc, I’ll answer, because I know a thing or two about that regardless of anything else.
And this is why it is helpful to gather all the information you can before shooting my mouth off.
X, I really am sorry for not being more specific. I’m just inherently wary of sharing too much.
I did think it was cool of you to stand up for the validity of a woman’s desire to not want kids, upthread a ways. I think you bring a lot of valuable experience and emotion to these discussions!
I’ll try not to see this as a lose-lose conversation, but that instead we’ve agreed to disagree. I won’t try to rationalize or justify anything I’ve posted since that seems to make the situation worse.
What I will underline though, is that my intent in volunteering in the clinic with patients is certainly not self-indulgent narcissism. I don’t need people to seek me out for my own benefit. I emphasized that part of my role because honestly, there’s not enough of it from what I see.
Common thread time: I get why the PL side perceives this as a ‘mill’ sometimes, and I wouldn’t have that understanding without working this closely. There are simply too many people and not enough staff – so, the basics get taken care of but there’s not a lot of time to really stop and comfort (outside of the case workers). Plus, before moving to the reco room I spent some time with the people in the waiting room – boyfriends, husbands, mothers, etc. I’ve been really taken aback by how insensitive they can be to the girls. So my thought is, at least one person can be nice to her today. That is the intent of the work.
Everything else…I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on that.
well thank you, alexandra. as much as some here might disagree, i try to keep an open mind, and all the conclusions i have reached in my life are my own. i’ve been so lucky to have a life filled with many different people and experiences good and bad. It’s given me perspective.
I’m sorry to here about your situation, Alexandra. :(
X is right, that is a very different situation that you were in when you decided to call the clinic. Either way, if you find yourself in that situation again, you know who to talk to. (hint: me! lol)
hear*
eesh, my spelling sucks tonight!
I don’t mean to be harsh, but it sounds like Alexandra’s abortion was purly elective.
I am so sorry, Alexandra.
Without going into too many details, the doctor diagnosed the pregnancy as nonviable because of both my hormone levels and, at a certain point, an inability to see a heartbeat
Jasper,
I suppose it was elective in the fact that she didn’t elect to miscarry naturally which she probably would have done. But other then that, it seems the baby was not alive to begin with. So no, she didn’t electively kill the baby. It IS different.
OK, I think missed it.. Sorry for your loss Alexandra.
Patricia, I’d love to see some of these “many studies” that show that women suffer from sleeping around. And also, you didn’t answer my question: why is it acceptable for women to ignore the (100% natural) desire to have sex, but unacceptable to not have children? What’s the difference?
Elizabeth, pregnancy is a biological process to me: there’s nothing inherently special about it to me. If children are desired, I can absolutely see it being something special, but on its own, it isn’t anything incredible. Hundreds of people do it ever day. It’s no more special than sex, on its own, is. It’s a biological process. Eh.
I don’t want kids because I have no desire to be pregnant. I don’t want the physical discomfort, I don’t want to take the time out of the career I love. I also don’t want to deal with 18 years of my career and my relationship with my fiance taking the backseat. I hate the idea of staying at home, and my fiance doesn’t want to do it either. To those primary reasons I add the practical fact that I could pass on several genetic issues.
HA,
I think that the difference is in how we (Christians/Catholics) view humans to begin with.
To us, there is the animal kingdom, the higher supernatural beings that are pure spirit, and then us, a mix of both. We believe we are unique. Different from all other creatures.
We have a soul, and if we are believers, then the Holy Spirit lives within us also.
When we give into our animal instincts (sex, eating, pleasure) we deny our higher selves and lower ourselves to the status of mere beast.
When we deny our “animal” self, our physical self, we lose our “heart” and become like machines.
The trick is to balance the two. Let the head rule the body, without eliminating the body.
Sex can and should be VERY pleasurable. But the head needs to order it, and keep it in it’s proper place. IE; Marriage.
Children, new life, are a physical expression of our love.
So to have sex for the sole sake of pleasure is to, we believe, misuse this gift. To take it down to the level of animals.
To produce children without the act of sex (in vitro/cloning) is to reduce ourselves to machines, denying our physical selves.
But to have sex in order to unite with our partner on both a physical AND a metaphysical plain, is to put the act in it’s proper place. The usual, natural, result of this, is children. They should, we think, be welcomed as a sign of our love. They are a gift. A reward for using the gift of each other in the proper way.
When you reject the gift of life, the natural outcome of unitive love, you are once again reducing the act to a baser one. You are once again, acting as animals, responding to your lower self.
I know you disagree with this, but it is why we believe that sex is good, properly ordered, and is not to be avoided. Having babies is what happens when you have sex. It’s a whole package.
Our heads, or will or intellect, must always be in control, while not denying the heart. The will controls the heart, but does not pretend the heart doesn’t exist.
They must work together. Anything else, denies our unique “humanness”…
Mk, I understand the viewpoint (used to be Catholic) and I respect your desire to have it. It isn’t as though the opinion is really hurting me, or bothering me. Nor is the condemnation that comes, generally, as a result of disagreeing or being at all honest about my sex life or the way I view sex.
I don’t believe, however, that the viewpoint need be pushed on everyone. Sure, babies occasionally result from sex, but they don’t have to. Heartbreak can occasionally result from sex, but again, it doesn’t have to. If I wasn’t in a serious, currently monogamous relationship I’d be absolutely fine with sex outside of a relationship, because I don’t view sex as anything but sex. It’s spiritual in its own right, and that doesn’t come from it’s ability to make babies or function in a marriage. It’s a fundamental human connection, and if having that fundamental human connection makes me bestial, I’m pretty okay with that. At least the animal kingdom doesn’t have religious wars or deny other animals their rights based upon race/gender/sexual orientation. For the duration of sex, life is simple: with my fiance, the thought process is one based purely out of love and desire, and I don’t have to worry about the politics of it. It’s easy, and I enjoy that.
What I don’t understand is why it’s okay to deny the ‘bestial’ instincts with regards to sex, but not okay to deny those same instincts with regards to children. Procreation is an instinct, an element of the animal self, just as sex is. Sure, it might be a gift of love or whatever, but it’s also a fundamental biological process, again, just like sex. Why preach about denying one but force others to embrace the other?
Is good you don’t have hangups about sex, HumanAbstract, but lots of people do and you see it many times.
HA,
You don’t kill anybody when you practice abstinence. And there is nothing wrong with denying your instinct to have children as long as you don’t kill your children to accomplish it.
There IS something very wrong with denying your instinct to love and care for your children.
Rhovan,
You say you have “no hangups about sex”. Is rape o.k.? Is bestiality o.k.?
“It’s spiritual in its own right,… It’s a fundamental human connection…”
HA, you are on the right track — there is definite bonding that occurs but that is why it is so important that it occur between married people who are completely committed to each other. You also mentioned that heartbreak can result — so true — again because of the bonding that occurs. More and more young women are being hurt by the “hook-up” culture. They think that they can have casual sex without the emotional attachment and it just doesn’t work that way.
The marital embrace is a physical sign of the spiritual union that God desires to have with the soul. The family is an icon of the Holy Trinity:
life-giving love — the love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit, the love between a husband and wife can bring about new life — a child.
“I’ve been really taken aback by how insensitive they can be to the girls. So my thought is, at least one person can be nice to her today. That is the intent of the work.
Everything else…I don’t think we’ll see eye to eye on that.
Posted by: Danielle at September 30, 2008 5:51 PM”
=================================================
Danielle, if you still haven’t figured it out yet…there’s no such thing as ‘compromise’ in an abortion….either you support it or you don’t…either you have a dead baby or a live one.
I hope you realize that before it’s too late.
TS: I wasn’t speaking about abortion in that post: I was specifically referring to charges that I wasn’t feminine, or was denying a part of my femininity, by not wanting to have children. I’ve taken steps to prevent from becoming pregnant, so I’m not to worried about having an abortion myself anytime soon.
Hang-ups about sex generally take the form of repression, i.e. seeing sex as inherently dirty, feeling guilty afterward, not being able to talk about it, etc. A far cry from rape.
Eileen, I don’t understand why the bonding has to occur between married couples. The bonding is based upon specific chemicals in the brain that trigger certain emotional reactions: oxytocin is the one that triggers bonding. It’s the build-up of oxytocin that brings about the ‘bonding’ feelings, so it would take several times of having sex with the same person to bring it about.
Oxytocin is released by the brains of BOTH genders during sex: it isn’t just women who become emotionally bonded to their sex partners after a time. If a man doesn’t respect a woman or is affected differently by sex, it’s because he’s socialized that way, not because his biology is that way. Gender is nothing more than a socially-idealized performance.
I’m not any more committed to my fiance before or after the marriage license is signed. If we ever do get married (I’m happy staying engaged, frankly), I hope that it won’t change our relationship: I hope remain just as committed before and after. As I’m not Christian, I don’t ascribe to the notion that marriage is a replica of the trinity, so I’m not too concerned with that.
Elizabeth, Carla, jasper, etc, thanks for your sympathies. It was a long time ago and I don’t really think about it too much anymore, but I do appreciate your care and support.
Elizabeth, are you on Facebook?
Danielle, if you still haven’t figured it out yet…there’s no such thing as ‘compromise’ in an abortion….either you support it or you don’t…either you have a dead baby or a live one.
I hope you realize that before it’s too late.
Posted by: RSD at October 1, 2008 10:37 AM
Does your comment refer specifically to the piece of my post you pasted? If so, I’m not clear.
Anyway, apparently for many people there’s some grey area on the matter, but clearly not for anyone on this board. I agree with you though – either you support it or you don’t.
Alexandra,
I am on facebook and so is Elizabeth. I would love to hear from you by email as well. Although it did happen a long time ago, I want you to know I am here to talk through whatever with you.
Anyway, thank you for sharing more of yourself.
Danielle,
You did expect some push back right? I mean this is a prolife blog…I have tried to post on prochoice sites and can’t even get a comment through. Jill could be more strict with her guidelines but she allows a lot(more than I would :)and it is a definite forum for education.
I prayed for you last night. Well you and all those that work or volunteer at abortion mills. That the horror becomes so real to them they have to leave. Kind of like what happened to Norma McCorvey.
Danielle,
You did expect some push back right? I mean this is a prolife blog…
Posted by: Carla at October 1, 2008 11:52 AM
No, Carla, I understand that, you and I have been on other posts and I have said that I don’t intend to change any minds or anything like that. Maybe it’s my perception, but when I debate an issue with anyone, even in my personal life, the pacifist (sp?) in me tries to find any shred of an issue we can agree on. I’ve tried to do that here, but don’t seem to get the same back. That’s the objective part of ‘arguing’ I support, otherwise I think you’re just talking to hear yourself talk. But, again, you’re totally right and I should not expect a lot of leniency here.
As your prayers, I know they came from a place of concern, so I will accept that. I don’t agree, but I know it’s not malicious intent so what can it hurt. Believe it or not, I am not a God-less heathen! I take all the thoughtfulness I can get my hands on.
Alexandra,
I sure am on facebook. If you’re friends on there with anybody else who comments here, you can find me. Or just type “Elizabeth Ryan” cause that’s the name I am listed under. My last name is different so I use my middle name for privacy purposes. Feel free to add me, it’s easier to keep in contact that way!
HA, I put that info out there on the Trinity because I thought that you had mentioned to mk that you were a former Catholic.
The fact that there is something happening to our physiologic make-up further substantiates my view regarding bonding that occurs during sex .Because there is such a strong bond between the man and the woman then there can also be a such a strong potential for hurt or heartbreak (as you put it) if the act is misused. In a marital relationship the couple is committed until “death us do part”. Yes, there is security in knowing that, that person that I am giving myself to, loves me and wants only me in that way for the rest of our lives. In any other relationship there is always that possibility that one or the other party can leave if they should so decide. HA, I want to ask a question, if you are committed, as you have stated, to your fiance, then why are you simply happy staying engaged? That implies a hesitation about marriage. Maybe you should give it some serious thought.
I’m hesitate about getting married due to the societal burdens implied when speaking about “marriage.” There’s the ‘traditional’ definition of marriage, which I disagree with, and I hesitate to align myself to an institution that has been used for the suppression of women for hundreds of years. Currently, the institution is also an exclusionary one, as homosexuals are not currently allowed marriage in most parts of the US. I don’t wish to participate in a union that not everyone can participate in. If there was a pressing legal need to get married (one of us had a serious illness and the other had insurance, we were moving abroad, etc) then I’d consider it. As of now, my hesitation is entirely based upon political issues I have with marriage, not at all dealing with my emotions towards my fiance.
As divorce effectively renders “the death do us part” bit pretty inacurate, I really don’t see the point of ‘security in marriage.” A marriage partner can, just as easily, end th relationship with a spouse as with a lover. I don’t see the difference.
If you don’t confuse sex with love, the potential for heartbreak is entirely reduced. As the neurochemical pathways that define lust, love and companionate love are entirely different, one can lust after someone without loving them. It’s entirely possible and eliminates the possibility for heartbreak.
Alexandra,
I’m on facebook too. If you find Elizabeth, friend me too! (Bobby Bambino is not my facebook name)
HA,
Then why be engaged at all?
“…one can lust after someone without loving them.”
All too true, but do you think that it is right to use someone like that? Or to be used? That is why there are a lot of unhappy young women and men as a result of the “hook-up” culture. BTW, these are people operating under the notion that it is just sex, not love, but again, because of the bonding that occurs, they can not walk away from hooking up with the clinical notion that it is just about satisfying their lust.
Unfortunately, divorce is all too common but most divorces result from selfishness on the part of one or the other, or both. The divorce rate is higher, BTW, among those who have cohabitated.
Danielle,
Nope. We can’t agree on abortion. True that. It intentionally kills a helpless child in a mother’s womb. What you will find here, I hope is people that do care about women and babies and each other. It is a family of sorts. I disagree strongly that you are “helping” anyone but feel free to disagree that I am “helping” when I speak to women about my abortion experience.
If I talk to hear myself talk, that’s fine with me. I do that a lot as a stay at home mom too. :) There are thousands of readers here each month and I am hopeful that at least one reads what I type and tries to find abortion recovery if they need it.
There is something here that keeps people coming back and willing to open up. Cool.
Well Carla, I won’t give up finding places where we DO agree on some things.
At the end of the day, I think we both wholeheartedly believe – strongly – that what we believe in, support and/or protest, is in the best interest of women, children and mankind I guess (that sounds corny). The approach is what is vastly, vastly different and light years away from each other. I truly, truly believe that you have pure intent when you speak to people about your personal abortion experience, regardless of someone else’s interpretation of it or my own position. I wouldn’t deny anyone the right to speak their own truth. If someone’s mind is changed after speaking to you, than so be it, it was meant to be.
So there I’m agreeing with you whether you like it or not!!! :)
Danielle,
It sounds like your heart is in the right place re your genuine concern for others…and as you stated, “the approach is vastly different and light years away from each other”.
I will include you in my prayers that you be enlightened by the Holy Spirit(specially when I pray at the PP clinic as part of the 40 Days for Life) and turn away from supporting the Devil’s masterpiece.
Danielle,
Oh, I am sure we could come up with tons to agree on that doesn’t involve abortion!!
HA, I don’t have any problem with your sexual habits. My husband and I didn’t get married until he joined the military, and mostly just for the benefits. Our relationship has always been strong, and a piece of paper and a name change didn’t make our love any stronger or validate our relationship any more than it already was.
I think that everyone should be allowed to have civil unions that grant equal benefits. I think that that wouldn’t diminish marriage for religious couples, because the actual marriage institution and ceremony could remain something done by their respective religions.
I think your generalized ideas about pro-lifers are flat-out wrong. You’re not going to be getting a riled-up reaction out of me when it comes to things you stick in your vagina. That’s your business. I don’t think that women should be obligated to pop out as many babies as our cycles and sexual habits allow just because we have the equipment to incubate them. I’m not religious; I really do want people to “keep their rosaries off my ovaries”. Birth control is essential.
However, that doesn’t mean that our responsibilities to other human beings (just basic things, like not killing other people, helping someone if you’re in a position to do so and they need it, etc.) go out the window to better serve our own purposes. That doesn’t make the wmen who believe as I do any less empowered, or any less committed to women’s rights. Part of wanting the best for a group or people is to want them to not only gain the power and respect they deserve, but to gain those things without losing some of the most important things in life there are: honor, integrity, ethics…things that, once lost, are hard or impossible to get back.
Patricia, I’d love to see some of these “many studies” that show that women suffer from sleeping around. And also, you didn’t answer my question: why is it acceptable for women to ignore the (100% natural) desire to have sex, but unacceptable to not have children? What’s the difference?
HA here is one example of a resource made public:
In “Unprotected: A Campus Psychiatrist Reveals How Political Correctness in Her Profession Endangers Every Student,” “Dr. Anonymous” wrote that the endemic problems mystifying educators and health professionals, are caused by the politically correct approval of rampant sexual promiscuity that characterizes college life. The book was released this week by Sentinel, a division of Penguin Group (USA) Inc.
This book is chock full of research studies demonstating the depression, eating disorders and suicidal feelings young women experience as a result of the sexual encounters outside of the protection and security of marriage – that is a committed permanent relationship between and man and a woman in which each is prepared to self-sacrifice for the good of the other.
As for your question, it is not “bad” to have sexual feelings nor to desire or not desire children. However, since sex and children go together (until 1961 with the development of the pill) they are best left for marriage (see above). Marriage protects women and children – the most vulnerable in society. It also protects men too apparently as many studies now demonstrate married men are happier AND healthier (and wealthier) than their single peers.
One does not “ignore” the desire to have sex when single, one simply does not act on that desire, channelling energies into other healthy activities and towards helping our fellow human beings.
Without exception, virtually every woman I’ve met has expressed a desire to have children at some point in the future. The only two women I know who did not wish to have children hated them due to very negative family circumstances in their childhood.
You might also be interested to know that there is a theory that is currently being researched as to whether the BC pill PERMANENTLY affects a woman’s desire for children and in fact renders her fearful of pregnancy. There may yet be effects of BC that we never thought existed.
Oh and HA: your statement demonstrates your woeful ignorance of the biochemistry of bonding – something that has now been studied extensively
(BTW, apparently the BC pill affects THAT too…)
Danielle said:
Hang-ups about sex generally take the form of repression, i.e. seeing sex as inherently dirty, feeling guilty afterward, not being able to talk about it, etc. A far cry from rape.
**
Actually Danielle, my post was directed at Rhovan, who was the one who brought up the “glad to hear you no hangups about sex things”. But since you responded…Being around PP so often you must be exposed to their liberalism and if it feels good it is ok mentality, bestiality included. And the fact that they process those minors without rape investigation of any kind makes me think they have misplaced priorites that cause them to look the other way and just process them without concern for how they got put in such a “sad” state of affairs. Does it ever concern you when you are “comforting” these post-abortive minors.
btw- I believe you are volunteering cause you acre about “being there” for those post-abortive women. They are definitely at a low point in their life when you are “being there” for them. I would be too upset at the killing to keep my calm in an abortuary. If it happened to a woman pregnant with my child I would hold the abortionist accountable for murder, so I couldn’t be there and just let abortions happen.
It would be like watching a place where line up babies and roll cars over them just so I could comfort the baby’s mothers.
Eileen, it’s easier for my fiancé and I’s religious parents to accept being engaged for a long, long time and cohabitating than not being engaged and cohabitation. It’s a fairly complicated situation, no doubt: I would, for example, be alright with having a simple spiritual ceremony at some point without signing a marriage license.
With regards to cohabitation, there is a correlation, but that doesn’t mean there’s causation. I wouldn’t marry someone without living with them first.
Xalisae, I have no doubt that you’re much different than the pro-lifers I generally see. You don’t, after all, spew religious dogma as truth, and you’re okay with birth control. My comments regarding birth control/pregnancy have thus far, I believe, been directed towards Patricia. Rest assured that, as I don’t want children, I’ve taken absolutely every step towards keeping myself from getting pregnant. IUDs are second only to tubal ligation in terms of protectiveness.
If all pro-lifers were like yourself, I think I’d have more respect for the opinion, even if I disagree emphatically with it. As it is, HisMan represents the majority of pro-lifers to me, so I have very little respect for the position. Doesn’t mean I’m not cool with individuals.
Patricia:
By Doctor Anonymous? Really? Who did the studies? Were there control groups? Did it prove causation, or just correlation? More information, links to the studies, and anything else you can provide would be great.
I don’t consider myself any more vulnerable than my fiancé, actually, and I don’t believe he considers me as such either. I don’t see marriage as protection, it’s just a state. Nothing special.
Doesn’t ‘not acting on’ the sexual feelings mean absolutely the same thing as ‘ignoring’ the feelings? I’m absolutely all for doing things that are beneficial to society, but I don’t follow with ignoring sex to do it.
I’ve never wanted children; the pill wasn’t something that impacted that. Those two women you’ve met aren’t representive of everyone: as I said, I’ve never wanted children. I can cite every statement I’ve made with regards to biochemistry. Can you cite counterpoints?
TS: I wrote that. Danielle didn’t. So, retool your post to fit a different situation.
Human Abstract,
What exactly is special to you then? Marriage isn’t special. Children aren’t special. Sex isn’t special. So what is special to you? Do you feel that anything is special or are you just ho-hum about all things? I don’t know, that’s just the impression I get from your posts. That everything just is, and there’s nothing significant about any of it. I mean, if somebody you know is pregnant, do you say “Congratulations” or do you say, “Great job on that normal every day biological process you’re currently undergoing?”
Depends on the situation, Elizabeth. It’s not the act itself that gives a specific thing meaning, it’s the situation. If I know a couple has wanted a child and they get pregnant, it’s a “Congrats!” moment. I don’t understand it, but they’re happy, and that’s all that matters.
Another example: a kid who absolutely never gets As on tests gets one. Another “Congrats!” moment. If the same kid always got As, however, that’s no longer “Congrats!” it’s mundane. It happens. If a couple who absolutely adored each other are getting married, it’s the adoration and the commitment that warrant the “Congrats!” not the marriage itself.
Does that make more sense? I don’t consider physical contact to be meaningful on its own, but laying next to my fiance is meaningful because he’s important to me. He means something for me. See the difference?
The joy or pain of another human being is what warrants an appropriate response from us.
If a child always gets A’s and is still thrilled when he comes in to tell me then I will celebrate that with him. Yay!
I was on the honor roll all through high school. My sisters always got D’s and F’s and I was told, “Don’t say anything. You will make your sisters feel bad.” My thrill of accomplishment warranted an ATTA GIRL!!
See a difference, HA?
I don’t think your post made a whole lot of sense, actually. I understand celebrating with the joy or pain of another person: that’s what I was speaking of in my post. It isn’t the marriage or the pregnancy that deserves the congratulations. It’s the happiness of the couple involved. If a kid gets all As and he does it all the time so he doesn’t care, there isn’t really a congrats necessary, I think.
Gotcha. That is not what you wrote but ok.
If the same kid always got As, however,that’s no longer “Congrats!” it’s mundane.
To you or to the child?
Just sayin. Later.
xalisae,
I think your generalized ideas about pro-lifers are flat-out wrong. You’re not going to be getting a riled-up reaction out of me when it comes to things you stick in your vagina. That’s your business. I don’t think that women should be obligated to pop out as many babies as our cycles and sexual habits allow just because we have the equipment to incubate them. I’m not religious; I really do want people to “keep their rosaries off my ovaries”. Birth control is essential.
I realize that you are responding to a non-Catholic, but I think you are smart enough to explain your position with out the non-sensical “rosaries rhyme”. The Holy Rosary prayers are a meditation on the life of Christ and His mother and it is offensive, to Catholics especially, to hear this. Thank you.
Elizabeth (Gabriella’s Momma),
I must be slow, I just noticed you have your own blog. Very nice!
Were you at the prayer rally at PP last Wed. night? I saw someone who looked like you, but she had two children with her, so I didn’t say anything. Just wondering!
If all pro-lifers were like yourself, I think I’d have more respect for the opinion, even if I disagree emphatically with it. As it is, HisMan represents the majority of pro-lifers to me, so I have very little respect for the position. Doesn’t mean I’m not cool with individuals.
With all due respect, should we base our positions on major issues on other people’s opinions or on our own analysis of the issue? There are some unlikeable (not referring to you, HisMan) people who are anti-murder or rape, but we don’t therefore say we will accept murder and rape.
Yes Janet I have my own blog. Feel free to leave me some comments. I like comments! Lol
And no I didn’t get to go to that one..we only have one car at my house and my brother had to picked up from the city for some show he’s dancing in.
I’m thinking about heading to the life chain though. Hopefully there will be a car around, I’ll email you and let you know for sure if I’m going!
P.S. Do you looove the name of my blog: Baby Mama Drama. hehehehe….
Okay, maybe it’s only funny to me cause I have an odd sense of humor.
Janet, I’ve always been pro-choice (I honestly cannot remember a time when I wasn’t), but it wasn’t until I found this blog that I ever really had any contact with ‘the other side’ so to speak. I had no opinion on pro-life arguments except that I thought they were wrong. After being on here, and seeing that the vast majority of pro-lifers here are arguing based upon a narrow, religiously-based view of the world, my respect for the position in general is absolute nil.
X, while I don’t agree with her position, is different. I don’t agree with her, I don’t like what she has to say most of the time, and sometimes she honestly makes me angry, but she doesn’t base her opinion on religion. For that, I give her a grudging respect. Well, I give her a grudging respect for that and the fact that her name is pretty excellent. : P
HA,
Thanks for your comments. So you don’t know any pro-lifers personally? I’m always amazed when I hear that from PC’rs.
I guess my point was, don’t judge the issue based on the personalities of supporters. It seems to me that pro-choicers use that excuse a lot. The argument against abortion can be made without any mention of religion – from a philosophical view point.
Have you considered that?
Elizabeth(Gabriella’s Momma) @ 12:39 PM
P.S. Do you looove the name of my blog: Baby Mama Drama. hehehehe….
Okay, maybe it’s only funny to me cause I have an odd sense of humor.
Yes, I looove it VERY much!!!
but she doesn’t base her opinion on religion. For that, I give her a grudging respect. Well, I give her a grudging respect for that and the fact that her name is pretty excellent. : P
Posted by: HumanAbstract at October 2, 2008 1:01 PM
And I have a great respect for people who do not condone the mutilation of women and the dismembering of the human persons in their wombs, regardless of their religious affiliations.
truthseeker,
Amen.
HA,
Rhovan said the following about you:
Is good you don’t have hangups about sex, HumanAbstract, but lots of people do and you see it many times.
Posted by: Rhovan Archetravian at October 1, 2008 10:18 AM
******
Then I posted the following to Rhovan:
Rhovan,
You say you have “no hangups about sex”. Is rape o.k.? Is bestiality o.k.?
Posted by: truthseeker at October 1, 2008 10:26 AM
******
Then you posted the following:
Hang-ups about sex generally take the form of repression, i.e. seeing sex as inherently dirty, feeling guilty afterward, not being able to talk about it, etc. A far cry from rape.
Posted by: HumanAbstract at October 1, 2008 11:24 AM
********
HA, you seem to espouse the liberal if it feels good it is ok mentality with regard to sex. Is there any type of “sex” that you are uncomfortable with?Are you comfortable with same sex sex? Are you comfortable if someone has sex with an inflatable partner? Are you comforatable with bestiality? Should they repress it when it consumes them to the point where they stay home and watch porn on the net day after day. What about sex with aminor, should a person feel anything wrong about that? What about masochism, is that ok behaviour? When is it healthy for a person to feel “dirty” about sex? Are there any kinds of sex you consider to be deviant and if so then why?
Janet, I’ve considered it from a philosophical perspective. Again, I disagree.
TS: I also have great respect for individuals who, you know, address their posts to the correct people. : )
HA,
But do you respond to the post when “retooled” to address your position, or do you duck the discussion? I also respect people who actually respond by addressing the honest concerns posted.
Can you respond to the content of my last two posts directed towards you or is it above your pay grade?
btw Danielle, my apologies that I posted to you about sexual hangups because I understand that was not part of your conversation. May God bless you in your work to help those post-abortive women heal.
We posted at the same time, actually. Thus, my confusion.
Sex without mutual consent is wrong, I believe. Thus, no sex with children, or animals. I don’t care about much else. Go for it, none of my business. I don’t believe it at all to be healthy to be awkward about sex.
I don’t condone the mutilation of women or babies: I am, however, pro-choice, and entirely okay with abortion.
I don’t condone the mutilation of women or babies: I am, however, pro-choice, and entirely okay with abortion.
Posted by: HumanAbstract at October 3, 2008 12:15 AM
HA,
You just contradicted yourself. What exactly are the human beings being torn apart in the womb bu “abortion” if they are not babies?
I know the chosen one Barack Obama thought these questions were above his pay grade but maybe you could tell me when you think a human being in the womb becomes a person with rights of theor own.
HA,
Am I to understand that the reason you are against bestiality is because the animal cannot consent?
HA,
I have too much fun when pro-abort feels-good- do-it liberals actually try and debate these things.
The humans involved in abortion are the woman and the fetus. Both are human, of course, though one is at a far less advanced stage of development. Additionally, the woman’s rights trumps the fetus’s rights.
Yes, I’m against bestiality because the animal cannot consent.
HA,
HA, I didn’t ask you if the mother and the baby were at different stages of developement. I’ll ask the same question again so you can try and answer it. When do you think a human being in the womb becomes a person with rights of their own? When should the rights of the baby be considered? For example, is it o.k. for an abortionist to deliver a baby feet first to the shoulders and then hold her in the birth canal while reaching inside and stabbing the baby in the head with a scissors and then opening the scissors and pulling it out of the head in order to make a gaping hole in her skull that you can use the hole to insert a vaccuum to suck the baby’s brains out from her head?
Yes, I’m against bestiality because the animal cannot consent.
Posted by: HumanAbstract at October 3, 2008 1:03 AM
HA,
So if you had a girlfriend who confided in you that whenever her dog starts humping her leg she gets naked and allows her dog to have sex with her? The reason you would tell her that she should stop having sex with her dog is because the dog is not able to give consent? You are losing me here HA. Are you basing your rationale against her bestiality on the premise that she would be somehow be violating the rights of the dog.She would explain to you that it is the dog that is initiating the sex?
Philsophically HA, consent does not enter into the equation when a person is dealing with an animal. The animal is the property of it’s master. And in the scenario above the animal is the one initiating the sex so cruelty would not be a valid argument either. Can you find no other reason why bestiality is an affront to humanity?
TS,
Danielle volunteers at an abortion mill. She holds the hands of those that have just finished killing their babies. “Helping” or “healing” is a bit of a stretch. Unless she is there for the ones who suffer years later from depression, low self esteem, nightmares, suicidal thoughts and attempts from their abortion experiences.
TS: As most animals cannot reason at the same level as humans, consent in the way humans think of it cannot be given. Same for children. Neither can reason at the same level as 16-18+ humans can, and thus, cannot honestly give consent to sexual activities.
Viability is when I’m personally uncomfortable with abortion taking place without a medical reason. As less than 5% of all abortions take place past that point, however, I don’t particularly concern myself with that minority. I’m for late-term abortions with a pressing medical reason, and I leave the determination of such to a doctor.
HA,
An inflatable doll can’t give consent either, but you don’t object to sex with an inflatable doll. It sounds to me like the reason you object to bestiality is because it could somehow violate the rights of the dog or because you are afraid it could potentially hurt the animal? Is that the primary reason you object to bestiality?
TS,
An inflatable doll is not living…an animal is. That’s a major difference I can think of as well. Why do you care if people are having sex with inflatable dolls? Unless they’re forcing you to have sex with inflatable dolls, you shouldn’t concern yourself with it. I would pity someone who has sex with an inflatable doll, because obviously they can’t get it with anybody else, so they resort to a sex toy. It’s no different than a vibrator. But I bet you object to those too.
HA,
So thousands of viable babies a year getting killed by having their limbs ripped off or shredded doesn’t particularly concern you because they are a minority of all abortions?
How can you be so calloused and nonchalant about such scandalous events? Each and every one of those babies who gets killed in such barabaric fashion causes tremendous grief to me. In my estimation any unborn baby has more worth to humanity than any abortionist and I have very little respect for people who have very little respect for others, unborn children included.
G’sMom,
I didn’t say one way or the other wether I object to somebody having sex with an inflatable doll, though I can say that I think it is unhealthy behaviour. But I would unequivocably agree that it is nowhere near as aberrant or unhealthy as sex with an animal. I am trying to understand why HA thinks bestiality would be ok except for her belief that the animal could not consent to sex with her.
TS,
I venture to say that the reason rape of a woman is wrong is because she did not consent. That’s WHAT makes it wrong. The lack of consent. It’s the same thing for animals of course. Why else would it be wrong? Maybe cause it’s interspecies mating too, and doesn’t really work, but other then that, I don’t know what you’re getting at here.
My point is that to say all sex is good as long as it is consentual and take it to the extreme where the primary reason you don’t have sex with animals is because they can’t consent is an extremely unhealthy attiude for bith your physical and emotional well-being. You don’t get that?
Oh, and I need to mention that bestiality would likely lead to your spiritual destruction too, and not because it was rape; that is for those who are at all concerned about or even believe they have a spirit.
The reason we as humans don’t have sex with animals is because humans don’t have sex with animals. That’s the primary reason, I suppose the secondary reason is that it’s cruel cause animals can’t consent.
I’m not saying that all consentual sex is good, but the first step to it being a good sexual experience is of course consenting to the sex. Without that, the sex act is always bad.
Even if you’re talking about sex between married people, TS, it would be considered BAD sex if one of the partners was not consenting to the sex, whether it is within the bounds of marriage or not.
The reason we as humans don’t have sex with animals is because humans don’t have sex with animals.
G’sMom,
You do realize there is no reason given in your statement don’t you?
******
That’s the primary reason, I suppose the secondary reason is that it’s cruel cause animals can’t consent.
G’sMom,
Wether or not they can consent doesn’t even show up on most peoples radar as reasons NOT to have sex with an animal.
*******
I’m not saying that all consentual sex is good, but the first step to it being a good sexual experience is of course consenting to the sex. Without that, the sex act is always bad.
G’sMom,
Bad for who? What about masochists and people who like to get aroused by getting handcuffed and tied up where the whole point is to be put in a position where they can have sex forced on them? I would agree with you that such behaviour is unhealthy but who are you to judge another adults experience? Is it possible that some people may like being raped?
Being tied up is different than being raped. If you’re asking to be tied up, you’re not being raped, you’re willfully submitting to being tied up because that gives you more pleasure. If somebody LIKES being raped, then it’s not rape, because people who are actually raped, don’t enjoy it. That’s why it’s called FORCE, ts.
And as for my first statement, that humans don’t have sex with animals because they don’t..it actually is a reason. It’s called interspecies mating. 2 different species mating doesn’t work in any way, reproductive or otherwise. That’s part of the reason as to why we as humans don’t have sex with animals.
Okay TS, why do YOU think it’s wrong to have sex with animals? Give reasons other than the animal can’t consent if you think that isn’t on anyone’s “radar.” (Even though it is)
And who are you to say that the dog shouldn’t get to have sex with his master if the dog whimpers and whines and begs for it every time she walks in the door? OK, I am being facetious there to make a point. Sex with an animal is wrong for many reasons and consent and rape don’t even enter into the picture.
Being tied up is different than being raped. If you’re asking to be tied up, you’re not being raped, you’re willfully submitting to being tied up because that gives you more pleasure. If somebody LIKES being raped, then it’s not rape, because people who are actually raped, don’t enjoy it. That’s why it’s called FORCE, ts.
G’sMOM,
Just because somebody is forced to have sex doesn’t mean they can’t end up enjoying it. Say you are in a parking garage and somebody uses a knife to force themselves on you and you actually enjoy the sex. That is still rape because the person forced themselves on you without your consent. Wether or not you enjoy the sex has nothing to do with wether you were forced to have it.
********
And as for my first statement, that humans don’t have sex with animals because they don’t..it actually is a reason. It’s called interspecies mating. 2 different species mating doesn’t work in any way, reproductive or otherwise. That’s part of the reason as to why we as humans don’t have sex with animals.
G’sMom,
I’m trying to understand here… Are you trying to say that the primary reason we don’t have sex with animals is because we can’t reproduce with them?
*******
Okay TS, why do YOU think it’s wrong to have sex with animals? Give reasons other than the animal can’t consent if you think that isn’t on anyone’s “radar.” (Even though it is)
G’s Mom,
Thanks for asking. My primary reason is spiritual and my secondary reason is that it is emotionally and physically harmful.
My babies didn’t get a nap today so I am putting them to bed early. Let me know which reasons would you like me to expound upon and I will be back to chat again later.
Just because somebody is forced to have sex doesn’t mean they can’t end up enjoying it. Say you are in a parking garage and somebody uses a knife to force themselves on you and you actually enjoy the sex. That is still rape because the person forced themselves on you without your consent. Wether or not you enjoy the sex has nothing to do with wether you were forced to have it.
All I can say to this is wow, if you REALLY believe this, you have watched wayyyyy too much porn. I don’t like to speak in absolutes, but I venture to say that this NEVER happens. Except in a porno. I could go into more details as to why that paragraph is utterly ridiculous, but I wouldn’t want to confuse you with logic and all.
My primary reason is spiritual and my secondary reason is that it is emotionally and physically harmful.
Those were some nice general reasons. How about you expand on HOW it is emotionally and physically harmful and WHY you believe it to be so.
What about the dog that likes it? Is that o.k. with you? Or is it impossible for a dog to like it because they can’t consent?
G’s Mom,
The physical aspect would depend on a few things.
I will list just a few oquestions you could answer so that I can be more specific about the dangers of bestial behaviour.
1) What kind of dog or dogs would be involved?
2) Were you planning on putting a condom on the dog first?
3) Were you going to engage in anal sex?
4) Were you going to engage in oral sex?
5) Were you or your dog going to engage in a monogamous bestial relationship or have multiple partners?
6) Would the dog be wearing a muzzle?
7) Would you clip the dogs nails so that he wouldn’t scratch up your back too badly?
8) Would you get your dog tested regulary for sexually transmitted diseases?
9) Would you keep your dogs distemper and rabies shots current?
10) Would you refuse to kiss the dog after it eats another dogs feces?
Emotional harm:
1) Would you or your dog engage in sex with other people or dogs?
2) Would you allow yourself to become emotionally attached to the sexual experience?
3) Would you get jealous if your dog tried to engage in sex with other dogs or women who came over as guests in your house?
4) Would you punish your dog if he pissed on you to mark you before engaging in sex?
5) Would you get rid of the dog if he failed to perform sexually?
6) Would you allow the dog sex whenever he wanted it or only when you wanted it?
7) Would you hide it from friends cause living a double life is extremely stressful and unhealthy.
The genetic, viral, and bacterial diseases that you would expose yourself to by engaging in sex with a dog would be great in any case but if you answer the questions above I could be even more specific about the physical and emotional dangers a bestial relationship would expose you to.
G’sMom,
You answer the questions and I’ll be happy to explain the HOWS and WHYS of each question that you answer.
While some minority of women do report having an orgasm while being raped — often in part because the body’s reactions to fear and arousal are similar — I think you’d probably have a difficult time finding a woman who ENJOYED being raped. There’s a lot more that goes into enjoyment — or trauma — than physical response. Actually, a lot of women who experience this are further traumatized by it, and are reassured by counselors that having an orgasm DOES NOT mean they enjoyed being raped.
And, of course, being tied up by your partner during sex, or even acting out roleplaying that involves rape, is nowhere near the same thing as actually being raped.
No TS, I won’t answer those absurd questions because they have nothing to do with what I asked you. I asked you why YOU believed bestiality was physically and emotionally harmful. I’m actually looking for reasons because you have said that the lack of consent doesn’t even appear on people’s “radar.” I will take your lack of ability to answer the question I posed to you to mean that it DOES appear on the radar as part of the moral component that comes into people’s minds when arguing that bestiality is wrong. I’m not disputing that sex with animals is wrong, I’m disputing the fact that you think the lack of ability to consent does not play a huge factor in that.
I have no doubt that bestiality can cause physical and emotional harm. I’m not disputing that. The fact that animals are another species than humans and are thus not capable of rational thought or consent is also a factor. Even if an animal could communicate their wants and desires with me, I wouldn’t have sex with it. I prefer male humans thank you.
TS, you’re being an idiot. Elizabeth is being MORE than patient with you; kudos to her for that.
Animals cannot consent. It is impossible for an animal to consent on the same level as humans. Thus, bestiality is wrong.
You’re also grossly representing masochism. S&M relies upon a base of absolute mutual trust and desire: there’s always a safe word which stops all sexual play immediately. There’s absolutely consent involved.
ok G’sMom,
I’m glad to hear you “prefer” human males but I hope you can see your preference should be for more reasons then the fact that animals can’t consent to the sex. I can just describe it ofr you without any input from you. But if you are not willing to particiapte in the discussion it is less likely I will be able to offer a description that you will understand. Since we don’t have any bestial people here to give us a real life example I will just stick to my woman and dog scenario.
1) What kind of dog or dogs would be involved?
If the dog was big it could actually hurt you physically just do the size during intercourse.
2) Were you planning on putting a condom on the dog first?
If you did not use a condom or if the condom failed bacterial infections would almost be guaranteed if you were to engage in canine intercourse. Was the dogs penis clean. Had he just finished licking his ass and then his penis prior to intercourse etc…
Also, if the dog ejaclulated then the introduction of canine sperm to your body would likely cause genetic abnormalities and/or cause immuno responses that may end up in dangerous if not deadly viral like symptoms.
3) Were you going to engage in anal sex?
Same problems as #2 only worse.
4) Were you going to engage in oral sex?
Again, the dog’s penis would be hundreds of times more likely to introduce unhealthy bacteria or worse if you swallowed.
5) Were you or your dog going to engage in a monogamous bestial relationship or have multiple partners?
Lets just say I wouldn’t feel safe having sex with a woman who has sex with a dog so this would be a huge health concern for anybody who engages in sex with a person who engages in bestiality.
6) Would the dog be wearing a muzzle?
If not and the dog is big you may get bit and or raped if you try and stop him once he gets started.
Look, I could go on and on with reasons why it is unhealty to engage in sex with a dog but if you don’t see it by now then there is no point in going any further, especially since you have expressed that you no longer wish to participate in a discussion about the HOWS and WHYS of bestiality being unhealthy.
And the reason consent is NOT even on most peoples radar is because of the detrimental physical and spiritual health effects. To this majority would never even “consider” doing it consent from an animal never even enters into their reasoning/rationale about it.
And Alexandra, I wouldn’t believe there are any women who would enjoy rape either, and I have certainly never known one who did. But you hear about masochism and people who like to role play and get tied up etc so it makes me wonder if it could be possible. Otherwise why would they enjoy role playing it?
Clarification:
And the reason consent is NOT even on most peoples radar is because of the detrimental physical and spiritual health effects. To this majority of people who would never even consider engaging in bestiality, consent from an animal never even enters into because of the multitude of reasons they simply would never even choose to do it themselves so consent of the animal just never comes into their reasoning/rationale when discussing why bthey choos to.
I’m glad to hear you “prefer” human males but I hope you can see your preference should be for more reasons then the fact that animals can’t consent to the sex.
And you don’t think they ARE?!! Really?!! Oh no TS, I just like guys because I can’t talk the animals into having sex with me. Come on, now you’re really being ridiculous here.
I don’t not have sex with animals just because they can’t consent. But I’m pretty sure one of the reasons that fall into the moral side of things has to do with it is WRONG to force sex on someone (animal or human) that can NOT consent to the sex. THUS, it would make one feel bad (hurt them emotionally/spiritually in your words) to force themselves upon another being.
fyi: I have enumerated plenty of physical detriments to bestiality but the number one reason I wouldn’t engage in such an aberration is because I believe it would lead to spiritual death.
Otherwise why would they enjoy role playing it?
I don’t get it either, but I imagine it has something to do with finding it exhilarating to feel (but not be) out of control. I mean, some people like jumping out of planes, but I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t enjoy falling out a window. Or of course it may be about things that actual rape is not about at all — like being too attractive for a man to resist, or having a man know what you want even when you deny it. Ugh this is creeping me out.
I know a woman who enjoyed rape fantasies for some time. Then, a couple years into her twenties, she was raped, and it was extremely traumatic for her. It’s really not the same thing at all.
There’s no safeword when you’re being raped. There is often nothing you can do to make it stop; there is no one who cares about you nearby, no one who knows and loves you. There is only someone who, at best, doesn’t care how scared you are, and at worst, enjoys how scared you are. There is only someone who wants to hurt you or, if you’re lucky, merely doesn’t care whether or not he’s hurting you.
There is no pretending. There is only the stark and undeniable knowledge that you have no choice but to let this person do whatever they want to you. It’s not the same thing at all.
What kind of dog or dogs would be involved?
Truthseeker, I realize that you didn’t intend it as such, but some of this stuff is HILARIOUS.
Doug,
I was laughing my head off when I wrote it. It would have been twice as much fun if HA hadn’t turned tail and ran.
HA, you never responded so I will post again here
HA,
So thousands of viable babies a year getting killed by having their limbs ripped off or shredded doesn’t particularly concern you because they are a minority of all abortions?
How can you be so calloused and nonchalant about such scandalous events? Each and every one of those babies who gets killed in such barabaric fashion causes tremendous grief to me. In my estimation any unborn baby has more worth to humanity than any abortionist and I have very little respect for people who have very little respect for others, unborn children included.
Posted by: truthseeker at October 3, 2008 5:15 PM
I was laughing my head off when I wrote it.
Ha! Well, good for you, Truthseeker – I didn’t know you had it in you.