GAP visits U of Cincinnati
The Center for Bioethical Reform has just released photos of its GAP (Genocide Awareness Project) visit to the University of Cincinnati October 22-23, invited by UC Students for Life.
Afterward UCSFL president Joe Burwinkel said, “Everybody on campus saw the display or at least heard about it and at times there were about a hundred people around the display asking questions and engaging in debate.”
That’s what we want, to talk about it. The student newspaper, The News Record, included a photo with an aborted baby in its front page as well as a balanced story about the event. Here’s one photo. See more on page 2.
See more photos here.
Nov.26, 2007 6:32 pm |
Apologetics |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I couldn’t help but noticing, but in the last picture, it’s predominantly males that are curious and seeking information. A picture does indeed say 1,000 words!
I’ve been wanting to post this Christmas Song…I can’t believe it’s by Dave Mattew’s, but there you have it…I was waiting for the right post to put it on and well, this is exactly what I was looking for.
And the blood of my children’s all around…
She was his girl; he was her boyfriend
She’d be his wife and make him her husband
A surprise on the way, any day, any day
One healthy little giggling dribbling baby boy
The wise men came, three made their way
To shower him with love
While he lay in the hay
Shower him with love love love
Love love love
Love love was all around
Not very much of his childhood was known
Kept his mother Mary worried
Always out on his own
He met another Mary who for a reasonable fee,
less than reputable was known to be.
His heart full of love love love
Love love love
Love love was all around
When Jesus Christ was nailed to his tree
Said “oh, Daddy-o, I can see how it all soon will be
I came to shed a little light on this darkening scene
Instead I fear I’ve spilled the blood of my children all around”
The blood of my children all around
The blood of my children’s all around
So I’m told, so the story goes
The people he knew were
Less than golden hearted
Gamblers and Robbers
Drinkers and Jokers, all soul searchers
Like you and me
Like you and me
Rumors insisted he soon would be
For his deviations
Taken into custody
By the authorities less informed than he.
Drinkers and Jokers all soul searchers
Searching for love love love
Love love love
Love love was all around
Preparations were made
For his celebration day
He said “eat this bread and think of it as me
Drink this wine and dream it will be
The blood of our children all around
The blood of our children’s all around
The blood of our children all around
Father up above, why in all this hatred do you fill
Me up with love, love, love
Love love love
Love love was all around
Father up above, why in all this anger do you fill
Me up with love, fill me love love love
Love love love
all you need is love
you can’t buy me love
Love love love
Love love
And the blood of our children’s all around
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdFZDKGO-A8
I love the picture of the “wanted” baby vs. the “unwanted” baby. Same age. Tragic sums it up!
Yes heather, I agree.
the first pictures of the PBA are absolutely hideous.
how desperate can a woman be to do this to her baby……
I completely support this kind of display for university students – they need to know EXACTLY what happens during an abortion
at least the student newspaper carried the story – here in Canada some universities do not ALLOW prolife clubs
I am in FULL favor of the GAP and just wish they had come up with this idea years ago. College campuses are a great venue for this…and they should do it in high schools as well.
I just read today that one of the Truth Trucks from Operation Rescue was imponded in Georgia and the driver arrested. The truck was vandalized while in impound…gee what a surprise.
As the saying goes, if abortion is supposed to be such a good thing for women why do people freak out when they see what it’s all about? Out of sight, out of mind…well,…not anymore !
I can’t believe that anyone could look at that second trimester abortion and actually argue that it’s not a human being. Do some pro choicers think we’re blind? That’s cold blooded murder. Abortion is murder, and abortionists are murderers.
As the saying goes, if abortion is supposed to be such a good thing for women why do people freak out when they see what it’s all about?
Posted by: Mike at November 26, 2007 8:40 PM
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Sex is a fabulous thing too! I’m sure you won’t mind if I drive my graphic pornmobile around your children’s elementary school.
“See kids, that’s how mommy and daddy got YOU!”
For true balance, I believe that sensationalized photos of miscarriages and births should be included. Especially stillbirths of the hideously deformed.
Here you go:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/PEDHTML/PED026.html
http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~gw/extremedeformities.htm
As if pro choicers have never exploited anyone before.@@ At least aborted children have unknown identities. Do the names Gerri Santoro and Becky Bell sound familiar? Pro choicers didn’t have any problems with exploiting these women or their families.
Laura, I have no doubt that you do indeed have a graphic porn mobile…or probably a fleet of them.
I have seen porn films and magazines and they don’t make me sick. They don’t make me sad. They aren’t a turnoff to sex at all. They make people even more interested in sex.
However graphic abortion pictures don’t make people feel excited about sex or more enthusiastically supportive of abortion. Many who never really had any real interest in the topic become motivated to speak out and to personally reject abortion as an option they might personally consider.
These photos are for educational purposes and are displayed at an educational institution. If the students who support legal abortion want to host a display of stillborn children with defects and argue that they should be aborted, they can.
Hippie, I agree.
Sally,
Your point is what with these photos? Horrendous deformities in newborns are something new? I’ve seen worse pictures than these in 50+ year old medical books. You should have heard the stories of deformities my greataunt told after her visits to the state hospital to see her Down syndrome grandchild. This has always happened and always will.
Maybe when I see photographs of the horrors of Darfur, I’ll counter them with sensationalized pictures of car accident and burn victims.
Mary, how right you are. I wondered what the point was. It doesn’t appear as though 1/2 of those children survived d/t the severe birth defects. Some look as though they would benefit from surgery. A cleft palate can be repaired.
I have seen porn films and magazines and they don’t make me sick. They don’t make me sad. They aren’t a turnoff to sex at all. They make people even more interested in sex.
However graphic abortion pictures don’t make people feel excited about sex or more enthusiastically supportive of abortion. Many who never really had any real interest in the topic become motivated to speak out and to personally reject abortion as an option they might personally consider.
These photos are for educational purposes and are displayed at an educational institution. If the students who support legal abortion want to host a display of stillborn children with defects and argue that they should be aborted, they can.
Posted by: hippie at November 26, 2007 9:08 PM
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These photos are sensationalistic and fully intended to arouse a quick intense emotional response. This is the definition of pornography. Pornography is not a teaching aid.
Heather, 9:23PM
And hydrocephalus can also be treated and controlled with the children leading normal lives.
Certainly this may not be the case in third world countries, but any number of medical conditions in these countries go untreated.
Heather, 9:23PM
And hydrocephalus can also be treated and controlled with the children leading normal lives.
Certainly this may not be the case in third world countries, but any number of medical conditions in these countries go untreated.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 9:30 PM
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Hydrocephalus may be treatable if detected early enough in gestation. Of course the treatment can also cause fetal demise. There are women right here in this country without access to the anti-natal services required for such detection and intervention.
Sally,
Your point is what with these photos? Horrendous deformities in newborns are something new? I’ve seen worse pictures than these in 50+ year old medical books. You should have heard the stories of deformities my greataunt told after her visits to the state hospital to see her Down syndrome grandchild. This has always happened and always will.
Maybe when I see photographs of the horrors of Darfur, I’ll counter them with sensationalized pictures of car accident and burn victims.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 9:19 PM
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The point is obvious Mary. Before considering continuing a pregnancy consider what can happen to you and what you could give birth to.
My great niece works in a home for severely disabled children that cannot be taken care of at home. My mother gave birth to a hydrocephalic. Your aunt can’t tell me anything I haven’t heard Mary.
Sally,
These children can be treated after birth. Shunts are put in to drain the fluid and prevent buildup of pressure on the brain. These were done before prenatal surgery came into being. It can be done prenatally now if it is diagnosed. If not, it can be done after birth. I had a patient who told me her daughter was hydrocephalic and was shunted after her birth. She said her daughter excelled at school and was developing normally in every way.
Mary, how right you are. I wondered what the point was. It doesn’t appear as though 1/2 of those children survived d/t the severe birth defects. Some look as though they would benefit from surgery. A cleft palate can be repaired.
Posted by: heather at November 26, 2007 9:23 PM
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Cleft palate can also cause fetal demise.
hippie-
There is plenty of sick pornography out there!
Sally,
These children can be treated after birth. Shunts are put in to drain the fluid and prevent buildup of pressure on the brain. These were done before prenatal surgery came into being. It can be done prenatally now if it is diagnosed. If not, it can be done after birth. I had a patient who told me her daughter was hydrocephalic and was shunted after her birth. She said her daughter excelled at school and was developing normally in every way.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 9:50 PM
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It is redundant to shunt a newborn if the brain has been crushed by the fluid. The fluid can also prevent the brain from forming enough to support life after birth.
Sally,
Please. What guarantees are there that the child born normally will not be disabled or deformed later in life by accident or illness? Could I have anticipated my daughter’s mental illness?
Could Christopher Reeve’s mother have anticipated what happened to her son? What about the woman near me who’s daughter was totally paralyzed by a drunk driver?
Can parents anticipate a child turning into a criminal?
Perhaps we should consider all the possible things that can go wrong when we have a normal healthy child and dispose of them immediately.
Sally,
A cleft palate is surgically treatable and will cause loss of life only in severe cases that go untreated.
At birth, the hydrocephalic may not have that enlarged of a head or enough fluid buildup to cause brain damage. Often time the condition was not immediately diagnosed since there appeared to be no abnormality of head size and only a gradually increasing head size signalled trouble. Of course, symptoms and the effects of the hydrocephalus varied from infant to infant. Immediate shunting will minimize pressure on the brain. Also, an infant’s brain can be very resiliant. The children who’s heads became huge did so over an extended period of time and treatment was not available. I remember seeing such children as a nursing student and some were surviving into toddlerhood.
Pip,
Of course there is nasty porn. I am not a porn fan. I don’t buy porn or support it. The last time I saw some was back in college. We watched it for a laugh. We watched it in fast forward which was pretty darned funny. My point is still that simply seeing a film of folks “doing it” is not generally a big turn off to most folks. It is not like folks are going to swear off sex cuz they saw some porn. It is not for kids of course.
For consumers, porn is like cigarettes; a bad habit. However the industry itself is the reason not to buy it because the industry is so nasty and can be exploitive. If nobody buys the crap the actors will be forced to get a better job.
Sally,
Please. What guarantees are there that the child born normally will not be disabled or deformed later in life by accident or illness? Could I have anticipated my daughter’s mental illness?
Could Christopher Reeve’s mother have anticipated what happened to her son? What about the woman near me who’s daughter was totally paralyzed by a drunk driver?
Can parents anticipate a child turning into a criminal?
Perhaps we should consider all the possible things that can go wrong when we have a normal healthy child and dispose of them immediately.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 9:58 PM
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More things to consider when deciding whether or not to continue a pregnancy. Please drop those tired old PL canards. That why not just kill children mantra. Abortion is the gateway to euthanasia dribble. @@
Now tell me why everyone shouldn’t be fully educated on gestation if you are going to insist that every pregnancy be continued. You call that pornographic display education. Let’s fully disclose all that can really happen in pregnancy. Let’s plaster it on the sides of buses. Thrust it in the faces of pregnant women.
Sally,
95% of children are healthy and serious problems are rare.
21% of pregnancies are terminated of which 95% are healthy babies like the ones in the educational photos.
That is why the need to educate folks about the unnecessary deaths of these healthy children.
The March of Dimes has plenty of info about birth defects on their website. Likewise, students who support legal abortion can put up such a display and explain the dangers of gestation if they want to.
Sally,
The human race would come to a grinding halt if we let every possible scenario scare us. For that matter, we shouldn’t walk out our front door either when we stop to think what can happen if we do.
I said nothing about abortion being a gateway to euthenasia.
What’s stopping people from educating themselves on gestation? The local library and the internet are a wealth of information.
What is pornographic about this display? The fact you don’t like it? I don’t like pictures of the horrors of Darfur. Are they pornographic as well?
Maybe when we find pictures so disturbing, we should as ourselves why.
Sally, I have no problem with that..if you’re going to be pregnant..you should fully inform yourself of what’s going to happen. Just like if you’re going to have an abortion, you should fully know what you are doing as well. I know before anybody lays a hand on me what is going to happen. I don’t understand what the big issue with is of bringing abortion procedures to light. If the pictures produce an emotional response..maybe that’s a good thing. Only a heartless person would not feel SOMETHING when they see those pictures. So if you feel at least some emotion about it, that shows you are only human. It’s just like seeing pictures of starving children over in underdeveloped countries..sure they may be designed to elicit an emotional response…but if you didn’t care, then they wouldn’t affect you either way.
Sally,
A cleft palate is surgically treatable and will cause loss of life only in severe cases that go untreated.
At birth, the hydrocephalic may not have that enlarged of a head or enough fluid buildup to cause brain damage. Often time the condition was not immediately diagnosed since there appeared to be no abnormality of head size and only a gradually increasing head size signalled trouble. Of course, symptoms and the effects of the hydrocephalus varied from infant to infant. Immediate shunting will minimize pressure on the brain. Also, an infant’s brain can be very resiliant. The children who’s heads became huge did so over an extended period of time and treatment was not available. I remember seeing such children as a nursing student and some were surviving into toddlerhood.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 10:07 PM
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I never said that situations don’t vary from case to case. You simply cannot deny that both cleft palate and hydrocephaly can cause fetal demise and still birth. Not to mention varying degrees of serious health issues for survivors. Surviving into toddler hood isn’t exactly the happiest prognosis. Undoubtedly why so many were institutionalized.
Being a nurse, you have to be well aware that pregnancies are terminated when the prognosis is imminent fetal demise or certain premature death following birth. Thus the necessity of late term abortions. Why are these facts completely avoided by PL ‘educators’?
Sally said, “Being a nurse, you have to be well aware that pregnancies are terminated when the prognosis is imminent fetal demise or certain premature death following birth. Thus the necessity of late term abortions. Why are these facts completely avoided by PL ‘educators’?”
I think that you answered your own question when you stated “necessity of late term abortions”.
Sally,
What makes a stillborn baby worse than an aborted baby to you? I mean if the baby is going to be stillborn…what is the harm in giving birth to the baby..and holding him/her, seeing them, saying goodbye, and having a proper burial? Don’t you think that is more healing for the parents than just having their baby disposed of? Or do you think that abortion spares the parents of the pain of not having their child live?
What makes a stillborn baby worse than an aborted baby to you? I mean if the baby is going to be stillborn…what is the harm in giving birth to the baby..and holding him/her, seeing them, saying goodbye, and having a proper burial?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If that works for you, great. Go to it.
Others may not want to go through the labor and delivery process in order to crank out a dead fetus. I daresay MANY women would rather be put under and have the flawed, doomed mess removed so that they can get sound and healthy and try again.
Sally said, “Being a nurse, you have to be well aware that pregnancies are terminated when the prognosis is imminent fetal demise or certain premature death following birth. Thus the necessity of late term abortions. Why are these facts completely avoided by PL ‘educators’?”
I think that you answered your own question when you stated “necessity of late term abortions”.
Posted by: AB Laura at November 26, 2007 10:47 PM
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I take that to mean that you don’t understand the necessity of late term abortions. Do I need to explain to you that gestating a non viable pregnancy is a danger to future pregnancies that might produce a live healthy infant? Not to mention your health if not very life. Would you really like to take your chances with a late term miscarriage or delivering a stillbirth knowing it could prevent you from ever having a successful pregnancy?
Goodness, yes, most people asking about information are men. Know what else? 100% of those men…WILL NEVER BE PREGNANT.
Sally,
What makes a stillborn baby worse than an aborted baby to you? I mean if the baby is going to be stillborn…what is the harm in giving birth to the baby..and holding him/her, seeing them, saying goodbye, and having a proper burial? Don’t you think that is more healing for the parents than just having their baby disposed of? Or do you think that abortion spares the parents of the pain of not having their child live?
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 26, 2007 10:54 PM
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Gestation is a crap shoot. Many many things can go wrong. If you would wish to carry a dead fetus and say hello and goodbye to it’s possibly rotted little parts and risk your life as well as the inability to gestate a successful pregnancy in the future, knock yourself out. Legally mandating that every women do the same is evil and senseless.
Sally,
The human race would come to a grinding halt if we let every possible scenario scare us. For that matter, we shouldn’t walk out our front door either when we stop to think what can happen if we do.
I said nothing about abortion being a gateway to euthenasia.
What’s stopping people from educating themselves on gestation? The local library and the internet are a wealth of information.
What is pornographic about this display? The fact you don’t like it? I don’t like pictures of the horrors of Darfur. Are they pornographic as well?
Maybe when we find pictures so disturbing, we should as ourselves why.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2007 10:21 PM
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Mary,
The only thing I find disturbing about the pics is the emotional manipulation in the intent of their use. I find this emotionally abusive. There is nothing educative in them. Aborted fetii do not look like that to the beholder whether the abortion was spontaneous or not. Cleaning away the tissues around a fetus and dissecting it does not represent an abortion. It is pure drama and dishonest. Pornography.
As you say, the library is a wealth of information. They have very good ones on university campuses. Why the PL need for unsubstantiated photos? Why not urge students to go research for themselves? Afraid they will find reason?
Speaking of porn…I’ve just been warped for life….
I found out that my former horse riding instructor is now a leading porn star. I think porn was disgusting to begin with. Now I’m just…left speechless by this turn of events…It’s…horrid….
Sally, I have no problem with that..if you’re going to be pregnant..you should fully inform yourself of what’s going to happen. Just like if you’re going to have an abortion, you should fully know what you are doing as well. I know before anybody lays a hand on me what is going to happen. I don’t understand what the big issue with is of bringing abortion procedures to light. If the pictures produce an emotional response..maybe that’s a good thing. Only a heartless person would not feel SOMETHING when they see those pictures. So if you feel at least some emotion about it, that shows you are only human. It’s just like seeing pictures of starving children over in underdeveloped countries..sure they may be designed to elicit an emotional response…but if you didn’t care, then they wouldn’t affect you either way.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 26, 2007 10:22 PM
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Elizabeth, there isn’t a single picture of an abortion procedure involved in that display. Only the unsubstantiated assertion that those itty bitty babies were intentionally aborted. This ‘little shop of horrors’ is all staged advertising for what the PL wishes to sell. Absolutely nothing educational about it.
If you would wish to carry a dead fetus and say hello and goodbye to it’s possibly rotted little parts and risk your life as well as the inability to gestate a successful pregnancy in the future, knock yourself out. Legally mandating that every women do the same is evil and senseless.
Posted by: Sally at November 26, 2007 11:36 PM
NO Sally ….. YOU are evil and senseless. As the mother of a stillborn baby, I am unspeakably offended that you have referred to a stillborn child as “a flawed, doomed mess” with “rotted little parts”. HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! You have NO CLUE!!!! Many babies are born still, with PERFECT BODIES, totally unflawed. Many babies die in utero due to “flaws” in the MOTHER’S body. My son died during delivery, he was perfect and healthy and whole and beautiful. I assure you he was not a “flawed, doomed mess”, and he had no “rotted little parts”. His death was caused by problems in the placenta due to MY blood clotting disorder.
Your words are disgusting and hurtful. THINK before you speak.
HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! You have NO CLUE!!!! Many babies are born still, with PERFECT BODIES, totally unflawed. Many babies die in utero due to “flaws” in the MOTHER’S body.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Did you not catch her use of the word “possibly?”
All Sally did was assert that each woman handle the situation the way that made her most comfortable.
I really don’t understand why you’re having an aneurysm. How dare you. Think before you speak.
If you would wish to carry a dead fetus and say hello and goodbye to it’s possibly rotted little parts and risk your life as well as the inability to gestate a successful pregnancy in the future, knock yourself out. Legally mandating that every women do the same is evil and senseless.
Posted by: Sally at November 26, 2007 11:36 PM
NO Sally ….. YOU are evil and senseless. As the mother of a stillborn baby, I am unspeakably offended that you have referred to a stillborn child as “a flawed, doomed mess” with “rotted little parts”. HOW DARE YOU?!?!?! You have NO CLUE!!!! Many babies are born still, with PERFECT BODIES, totally unflawed. Many babies die in utero due to “flaws” in the MOTHER’S body. My son died during delivery, he was perfect and healthy and whole and beautiful. I assure you he was not a “flawed, doomed mess”, and he had no “rotted little parts”. His death was caused by problems in the placenta due to MY blood clotting disorder.
Your words are disgusting and hurtful. THINK before you speak.
Posted by: Kristi at November 27, 2007 12:05 AM
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Oh Kristi! You have issues. How many babies have you killed in utero with your blood clotting flaw? Isn’t that what you are beating yourself up about in your attempt to use me as your whipping boy?
Get some professional help. You aren’t going to find what you need here.
I need professional help? Really? Because I recognize lies and callousness when I see it?
I am in no way attempting to use you as my “whipping boy” …. I am merly objecting to YOUR WORDS because they are false, not to mention horribly insensitive.
And now, once again, by impling I “killed” my baby “in utero wih [my] blood clotting flaw” … Sally, you have no defendable position, so you simply resort to below-the-belt insults hoping somehow that will frustrate others into thinking you’re right.
Not gonna happen.
I would imagine that any NORMAL woman, with merely a shred of human decency … regardless of her stance on the abortion issue … would feel some sense of empathy toward another woman grieving the death of her child. But not Sally. Hmmm …. sounds to me like YOU have issues Sally. Perhaps *I* am not the one who needs prefessional help afterall!
I need professional help? Really? Because I recognize lies and callousness when I see it?
I am in no way attempting to use you as my “whipping boy” …. I am merly objecting to YOUR WORDS because they are false, not to mention horribly insensitive.
And now, once again, by impling I “killed” my baby “in utero wih [my] blood clotting flaw” … Sally, you have no defendable position, so you simply resort to below-the-belt insults hoping somehow that will frustrate others into thinking you’re right.
Not gonna happen.
I would imagine that any NORMAL woman, with merely a shred of human decency … regardless of her stance on the abortion issue … would feel some sense of empathy toward another woman grieving the death of her child. But not Sally. Hmmm …. sounds to me like YOU have issues Sally. Perhaps *I* am not the one who needs prefessional help afterall!
Posted by: Kristi at November 27, 2007 12:59 AM
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Put down the crack pipe.
Did you not catch her use of the word “possibly?”
All Sally did was assert that each woman handle the situation the way that made her most comfortable.
Posted by: Laura at November 27, 2007 12:34 AM
…… OH, I SEE NOW, I made a mistake there ….. it was actually LAURA who asserted that a stillborn baby was a “flawed, doomed mess”. Okay, pardon me, I stand corrected. Because “rotted little parts” sounds much better anyways I suppose. Plus ….. if you’re really wanting to convince people you’re a compassionate person who cares about defending the “rights” of women, you could try telling a grieving mother she killed her child due to a blood disorder she has no control of. That’s a brilliant way of driving home your point! You know, maybe I was wrong about you and Sally. The more I read your posts, the more I’m starting to see your brilliance!!! Like this little piece of genius:
Others may not want to go through the labor and delivery process in order to crank out a dead fetus. I daresay MANY women would rather be put under and have the flawed, doomed mess removed so that they can get sound and healthy and try again.
Posted by: Laura at November 26, 2007 11:16 PM
I daresay MANY women would rather be put under and have the flawed, doomed mess removed so that they can get sound and healthy and try again.
Posted by: Laura at November 26, 2007 11:16 PM
Hmm, well I daresay you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve personally had a stillborn child. Have you, Laura? Did you have the doomed mess “removed” so you could get sound and healthy and try again?
I daresay MANY women would rather be put under and have the flawed, doomed mess removed so that they can get sound and healthy and try again.
Posted by: Laura at November 26, 2007 11:16 PM
Hmm, well I daresay you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve personally had a stillborn child. Have you, Laura? Did you have the doomed mess “removed” so you could get sound and healthy and try again?
Posted by: jpl at November 27, 2007 1:45 AM
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Do you have a clue? Doesn’t sound like you do have any grip on human experience let alone reality John/yllas/mental job.
Put down the crack pipe.
Posted by: Sally at November 27, 2007 1:21 AM
See what I mean …. MORE BRILLANCE right there! Keep going! I’m really starting to see the merits of the pro-choice position!
that was me above
Hmm, well I daresay you have no clue what you’re talking about unless you’ve personally had a stillborn child. Have you, Laura? Did you have the doomed mess “removed” so you could get sound and healthy and try again?
Posted by: jpl at November 27, 2007 1:45 AM
OH THANK GOODNESS!!! A voice of reason awake at this late hour!!! Thank you!!! I’m sorry to say I have to leave you here alone with the wolves, I’m finally off to bed!
How many babies have you killed in utero with your blood clotting flaw?
Posted by: Sally at November 27, 2007 12:40 AM
I was unaware that “pro-choice” meant “pro-cold-hearted-and-unscrupulous-for-no-reason”.
It’s difficult for people to take you seriously when you’re just . . . well . . . mean.
Put down the crack pipe.
Posted by: Sally at November 27, 2007 1:21 AM
See what I mean …. MORE BRILLANCE right there! Keep going! I’m really starting to see the merits of the pro-choice position!
Posted by: Anonymous at November 27, 2007 2:06 AM
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You might be he next poster child for the need of mental health professionals.
How many babies have you killed in utero with your blood clotting flaw?
Posted by: Sally at November 27, 2007 12:40 AM
I was unaware that “pro-choice” meant “pro-cold-hearted-and-unscrupulous-for-no-reason”.
It’s difficult for people to take you seriously when you’re just . . . well . . . mean.
Posted by: jpl at November 27, 2007 2:17 AM
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It’s difficult to take you seriously when you are… oh ummm… just plain ignorant.
Pornography;1.Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arouse.
2. lurid or sensational material. Houghton Miflin.
Sally almost gets the definition of pornography right, in her post at 9;25pm,nov.26,2007
Photos of abortion products do not arouse anyone to “quick intense emotional” sexual arousal, but maybe Sally.
As for lurid, which is defined as, causing shock and horror(Houghton Miflin), Sally must be admiting abortion, and pics of abortion, is shocking and horrible to her.
Amazing, Sally is shocked and horrified by pics of abortion, yet Sally is the one who “has seen more death”, then anyone here at this post board.
Yes, those are the exact words of Sad Eyed Sally, a person who is bragging about seeing more death then anyone else at this board.
One must wonder if Sad Eyed Sally has the “vapors” from those abortion pics.
For Sally and Laura, who share a folie a deux for deathsex, one can see Laura becoming sexually aroused by abortion pics and asking Sally if she too, is sexually aroused by abortion pics.
After all, Laura associates “child pornmobiles” and “abortion” in her mind. Imagine the fun a shrink has had with Laura and word associations.
There is a connection between abortion and child porn, it’s abortion. It comes from Laura selling child porn, to children, from her automobile at elementary schools.
Sex is a fabulous thing too! I’m sure you won’t mind if I drive my graphic pornmobile around your children’s elementary school.
“See kids, that’s how mommy and daddy got YOU!”
I believe they call that the Folsom Street Fair.
It’s also not a fair analogy. We’re not showing abortions in progress. We’re showing the results of abortion.
If you want to show the results of sex, then feel free to put up displays of live babies anytime.
Sally,
Cleft palate is unlikely to cause fetal demise and once corrected, their is no reason the children cannot live normal lives. The same with hydrocephalus, once it is corrected either pre or postnatally. These children can also live normal lives.
Institutionalization was done when there was no means to treat these children and their situations were indeed very tragic.
Yes I have seen suction aspiration and late term induction for babies who have died in utero.
Again, depending on what fetal defects you are talking about. If its Down’s, dwarfism, certain genetic disorders, no I have not seen these babies deliberately destroyed late term. I do know of one situation where there were such severe placental and fetal anomolies that they posed a threat to the mother’s safety if she went to term and she was aborted a 5 months at a local hospital. Thankfully these situations are very rare. There have also been situations where there was prenatal misdiagnosis, the mothers refused to abort, and the baby was normal.
Alright everyone, let’s all take a deep breath…
PIP,
Why? what did I miss?
Not one person has commented on Dave Matthews song…is it because you didn’t listen to it, you hated it, or you were unmoved…I’m just curious as it had such a powerful effect on me…
Where is Doug?!?!?
Mk, I just listened to the song. I too found it to be very moving. The “blood of our children is all around” us indeed and it is so sad that some people can’t see that.
Mary Queen of Peace, pray for us.
Sex is a fabulous thing too! I’m sure you won’t mind if I drive my graphic pornmobile around your children’s elementary school.
“See kids, that’s how mommy and daddy got YOU!”
A. A University is NOT an elementary school.
B. Showing porn has not positive purpose. Showing abortion victims saves lives.
C. Sex is fabulous, between two loving people in a life-long relationship. Not plastered on a bus.
“Why? what did I miss?”
People getting really upset!
And the pictures prove again that if the truth suited the antichoice agenda then they wouldnt HAVE to lie. But it doesnt, so they tell lie after lie after lie and insist it makes them ‘righteous’.
Kristi,
I am so sorry to hear you lost your son at delivery. Nothing can every replace a precious child. I wish you and your family the best.
thank you hippie, I really appreciate that.
Kristi, If you don’t mind sharing, what exactly caused your child to be stillborn? I am also very sorry for your loss, it must have been heartwrenching. My mother lost a baby that had spina bifida (the kind you don’t survive obviously) and I know that even 23 years later..it still saddens her to talk about it. It’s one of those tragedies you never really get over. My prayers are with you.
“Elizabeth, there isn’t a single picture of an abortion procedure involved in that display. Only the unsubstantiated assertion that those itty bitty babies were intentionally aborted.”
Now here’s the five-thousand dollar question, Sally:
How do you know?
Kristi, If you don’t mind sharing, what exactly caused your child to be stillborn? I am also very sorry for your loss, it must have been heartwrenching. My mother lost a baby that had spina bifida (the kind you don’t survive obviously) and I know that even 23 years later..it still saddens her to talk about it. It’s one of those tragedies you never really get over. My prayers are with you.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 27, 2007 2:53 PM
Hi Elizabeth. I don’t mind sharing at all. I had a grade 3 placental abruption, although it took the specialists several weeks to properly diagnose it. This condition is where a blood clot forms between the placenta and the uterus and causes the placenta to pull away or detach from the uterine wall. When this happens, the baby obviously receives less and less nourishment, and it can lead to a slew of other problems …. low fluid, growth restriction, pre-eclampsia … etc, etc, etc. Over time the blood clot usually gets bigger, and therefore the abruption or “pulling away” gets worse. So they rate this on a scale of 1-3, with 3 being the worst. There is no way to “fix” an abrupted placenta, you basically have to wait and pray, and if the baby is far enough past viability they will go ahead and deliver before the abruption progresses far enough to cause death to the baby. A “complete” abruption — where it becomes 100% detached — can also cause maternal death, although it is rare. But it is extremely dangerous to the mother.
In my case, problems began at 12 weeks, which is more unusual for it to begin so early. But my little guy held on for a long time … we made it well into the 5th month of the pregnancy … he was growing and developing perfectly despite the abruption. On Sept 2, 2006 my body went into labor. His heartbeat stopped a few moments before delivery. We refused an autopsy, but they did run pathology on the placenta and umbilical cord (those cells are identical to the baby’s since they are made from “fetal cells”, so the DNA, etc is the same) The pathology confirmed there were no genetic abnormalities or physical deformities of any kind. His little body was perfect! It was the placenta that didn’t do it’s job. The pathologist found that at the time of my delivery the placenta was 75% abrupted, meaning only 1/4 of it was still attached and functioning.
We named our son Isaac. In the aftermath of his death, my doctor suggested I be tested for clotting problems, since the blood clot on the placenta had been found to weigh over 400 grams. A few months later I was diagnosed with Protein S Deficiency, which is a genetic blood clotting disorder. Or a “flaw” as Sally so sensitively called it. Protein S causes my blood to over-clot (think of it as the opposite of hemophelia). They think this most likely played a role in causing the abruption. It is treatable, but still very risky in pregnancy.
Thank you for your sweet words. I’m so sad to hear about the sibling you lost. My husband had an older sibling, who was also stillborn (full-term) due to an umbilical chord knot. That was 1976, and my dear mother-in-law still suffers incredible grief from that loss. Especially since last year, with the stillbirth of her grandson, I know that brought back alot of old unresolved feelings for her. It’s been a really hard year for all of us. Which is one reason why it’s so disgusting to me to read the ignorance and hatefulness of others who refer to stillborn children in such disparging ways like Sally and Laura have both done here. These are children who are loved immeasurably by their parents, whose deaths are absolutely devastating to everyone in the family. Certainly most people have not seen and/or held a stillborn child … unfortunately I have … but I can tell you firsthand that my son was none of those things Sally and Laura called him. He was not a flawed mess. He was a gorgeous child created by God. He had tiny little eyelashes and eyebrows. He had fingernails and toenails. He had his dad’s nose. And my lips. He had those smooshy little baby-wrinkles on the backs of his ankles! He was physically perfect. He looked just like a living baby, just smaller and more red (meaning he had that preemie transparent-skin look). These physical attibutes are especially poignant to me since I live in Georgia, and in our state abortion is legal for any reason at all anytime before week 27. Women from all over the southeast come to my state to seek late-term abortions, and Atlanta is now known as the “city of blood”. Those babies they are aborting …. they are just like my Isaac. They just don’t have a mommy that wants them. And instead of being born into the arms of a grieving mother, their limbs are ripped off in a D&E procedure, their heads are decapitated and crushed. And I KNOW, because I’ve seen a child at 5mo gestation … those are decapitated heads with tiny little eyebrows and eyelashes. Those are shredded arms with tiny fingernails. Those are broken legs with sqooshy little baby-wrinkles on the backs of the ankles. It is unfathomable to me how such a thing could be morally acceptable to ANYone. Even stone hearts like Laura and Sally.
Thank you again for your prayers Elizabeth. It’s nice to have an opportunity to tell people about my little boy.
Kristi,
Thank you so much for sharing your son with us. I bet Issac was beautiful, and he is waiting for you to come home. God bless you and your family. I will be praying for your mother-in-law as well. That is alot of heartache in one life time.
Kristi,
Bethany lost two babies this year, and then there is Lilith and Kaylie. I’d say your little Isaac, while missing his mum and dad very much, is not lacking for company. Quite a little army we have going up there…Do you suppose they are comforting all the little ones whose mothers and fathers pretend that they don’t exist? Already working for Jesus and loving in his name? How beautiful to think that they too are fighting to end abortion, and are able to comfort the ones we can’t save…
MK,
What a beautiful thought. And yes it would be like children to comfort one another. Thanks for that.
Kristi,
That is indeed a gut wrenching ordeal you went through, and I hope the pain subsides for you and your family. Know that Isaac is home with Jesus for all eternity and sending you huge hugs every day.
My mother lost her first child, stillborn, in 1947. I would have had a brother 60 years old this year. Given the time, they never did find out what caused the death, but he has always been a part of our family, though the 6 of us that followed never knew him. My parents are buried next to him, and we have always visted his tiny grave and included him in our lives.
Please ignore the ignorant and hurtful comments made earlier by certain posters.
Peace to you and your family.
Thank you Mike, MK, and Tara for those sweet thoughts. Your words are indeed comforting. MK, your comment gave me goosebumps! And Mike, it stung my heart to hear you say you would’ve had an older brother, 60 years old now, but he was always part of your family. The same is true for my husband, the first sibling in his family was sillborn, and so he would have an older sister now 31 years old. She has always been a part of their family as well. Never forgotten. I do have one living child, Gracie, she’s almost 4. The fact that she was born healthy with only minor complications during my pregnancy is truly a testament to God’s miraculous powers!!!! But it is my greatest desire for her to know her brother, even though she can’t “KNOW” him yet … but for her to always know he is part of our family. We talk about him often at our house – just like every other member of our family is discussed. We will celebrate his birthday every year, etc. And even now, at only 4, my daughter occasionally says things like, “I wish Baby Isaac were here to play this game with me”. Her little heart is so pure and she knows the truth that her brother was indeed a PERSON who simply doesn’t live with us right now. There are many close to me, including a (now former) best friend who think we are nuts for treating our “flawed mess” in this manner. Some will just never understand, and to some extent, that’s alright with me. For many, ignorance is bliss, and in this case …. well, I wouldn’t wish this loss on anyone, so if they need to be ignorant then I’ll let them. :)
I realize that a lot of people have a hard time understanding suffering and it’s value, but as a Catholic I grew up hearing the words…”offer it up”. I understand those words now. They are sweet words. I understand that Jesus “offered it up” and that his example taught us that suffering is a way for us to help each other.
Sometimes I picture God walking into a room of unborn souls and saying “I’ve got a really big problem down on earth and I’m gonna need a couple of volunteers to do a little suffering for me. It won’t be easy. One of you is going to have to die before you ever even get to be held by your mother, and another one is going to have to live with some physical limitations. You will be ridiculed, laughed at and treated as less than human. You won’t be able to run, ride a bike or hold down a job. You’ll never get married or have kids and your life will be filled with physical pain. But the good that you will do by “offering this up” will be immeasurable and many, many souls will be saved because of your unselfishness. Now, do I have any takers?”
And I can see those precious little souls raising their hands and volunteering to be born with spina bifida, or down syndrome, or some other painful disease…waving them and saying “I will Jesus, I will…pick me!”
And while we here on earth look at them and pity them, and turn our heads away or worse yet, kill them, it is truly us who are blind, and deformed and handicapped. It is us who need healing, and it is these precious, precious children who aid us by “offering it up”. Suffering, viewed properly, can be beautiful and so sweet…
wow, MK, you are so eloquent!
Kristi,
I’d like to take credit, but honestly, I just let the words come through me. It’s all Him…
so true, so true…
Wonderfully said, MK.
I am off to bed everyone. Good night!
Kristi, I just read your story as I have been quite busy this evening and it brought tears to my eyes. Isaac is such a beautiful name..and beautiful name to match a beautiful boy no doubt. It gave me chills when I read about your mother-in-law. When I was a couple weeks before my due date, my doctor suggested having a c-section because I have other medical issues that might complicate things during delivery so I said that was fine, because I didn’t want anything to get in the way of meeting my little girl. So I scheduled the c-section and when she came out I found out she had a SERIOUS knot in her cord and had it wrapped several times around her throat. If I had gone into natural labor, she would have died due to that knot. I know it in my heart that God saved her, cause He knew she would be my saving grace. So when I read about your mother-in-law I was saddened for her, because I know that could have been me as well. My mother still has only been out to my brother’s funeral site 2 times since she buried him 24 years ago. It is just too sad for her, and I understand. I don’t know how strong I could be in that situation..I applaud you for your strength and grace. Isaac is smiling down from Heaven knowing he has the greatest mommy!
Not one person has commented on Dave Matthews song…is it because you didn’t listen to it, you hated it, or you were unmoved…I’m just curious as it had such a powerful effect on me…
Where is Doug?!?!?
Hey, MK. Was in GA for Thanksgiving week, then back to WV for work Sunday morning, back to OH to make sure the heat was on, since cold weather is due, got ready for the next job in TX Monday morning, drove to Nashville by last night, now Lafayette, LA, en route to east of Houston. Mark me down for 2140 miles the last three days.
Is Dave Matthews religious? Lyrics could be taken all sorts of ways.
This is SO off topic but everytime I hear about Dave Matthew’s now..all I can picture is people getting crapped on when his tour bus unloaded their waste onto a tour boat of people on Lake Michigan. Haha. Sick, yet funny if you weren’t one of the people getting crapped on.
No Doug,
He’s agnostic, I believe. And I’m pretty sure he didn’t intend the words the way I’m taking them…but hey, choice again. I choose to view the song “my” way.
This is SO off topic but everytime I hear about Dave Matthew’s now..all I can picture is people getting crapped on when his tour bus unloaded their waste onto a tour boat of people on Lake Michigan. Haha. Sick, yet funny if you weren’t one of the people getting crapped on.
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 27, 2007 10:51 PM
*******************
I didnt realize it was the Dave Matthews band that did that …. when I heard that news story I felt so guilty for laughing ;)
TR:
It’s still a huge joke around here!
TR:
It’s still a huge joke around here!
Posted by: Elizabeth at November 28, 2007 3:38 PM
****************************************
He’s never gonna live that one down …. who sang “Take a load off Annie ….. and put the load right on me”? :(
who sang “Take a load off Annie ….. and put the load right on me”? :(
Iva,
Crazy Chester followed me, and he caught me in the fog.
He said, “I will fix your rack, if you’ll take Jack, my dog.”
I said, “Wait a minute, Chester, you know I’m a peaceful man.”
He said, “That’s okay, boy, won’t you feed him when you can.”
The Band – “The Weight” – the immortal Robbie Robertson, Levon Helm, Rick Danko, Garth Hudson and Richard Manuel, primarily.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0077838/
Great film.
Doug