The tidal wave of death
I haven’t written on Barack Obama’s cabinet appointments because frankly I found it too depressing. This is like watching a Culture of Death tsunami. Nothing we can do to stop it….
There’s Tom Daschle, Obama’s new Secretary of Health and Human Services, a rabid pro-abort who also hates abstinence education and supports nationalized healthcare (taxpayer funded abortions).
I’ve previously written on Alta Charo, Obama’s new ethics advisor. Charo has ties to the human embryo experimentation industry and – surprise – supports federally funded embryonic research. She also opposes conscience rights of health care professionals to refuse to participate in abortion.
Then there’s former NARAL legal director Dawn Johnsen, who will serve on Obama’s Department of Justice review team.
I had supposed the topper was Obama’s appointment of Ellen Moran (pictured right) as his communications director. She’ll be leaving her job as executive director of EMILY’s List, a group that raises $$ to elect pro-abort Democrat women.
But no, yesterday Obama named Melody Barnes to head his Domestic Policy Council. She previously served on the boards of both Planned Parenthood and EMILY’s List.
There are more, but I’m drained.
The only hope is infighting will get in the way of advancing their agenda, as reported by The Politico today.
Where are all those supposed pro-lifers like Doug Kmiec who supported Obama for president?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
A supposed Pro-lifer supported O for Prez – what are they ON CRACK?
Pretty sad – some say it’s really Clinton people in his administration … you know what – that’s NOT change!
What I love is that despite the huge tidal wave of abortion supporters in the Obama white house, NARAL and their like minded friends continue to yell from the roof tops that the women oppressing crazies are coming to strip away women’s rights.
I’d like to meet this nefarious rights blaster that they concoct. I mean, in all the time I’ve spent around pro-lifers I’ve never heard someone say “we should stop women from having abortions so they’ll go back to the kitchen and bake me a pie!”
We talk about abortion killing a child, and hurting women and society, but we aren’t a bunch of cartoonish goons plotting to put tape recorders in bedrooms in order to enforce the morality police.
The general pro-life public cares about the unborn and women in crisis pregnancies.
Pro-life politicians, for the most part, just care about getting our vote.
I don’t know anyone who is trying to “attack women!!!!”
Of course, hysteria makes people agree to things they might otherwise question, which is exactly why NARAL uses it.
Listen to these Programs about Obama’s Birth Certificate Problem:
http://feeds.radioamerica.org/rd-bin/rdfeed.mp3?GGL&cast_id=5457
http://feeds.radioamerica.org/rd-bin/rdfeed.mp3?GGL&cast_id=5430
http://www.crosstalkamerica.com/
Look what I found on Rush Limbaughs site. The state of California is investigating the Mormon church because of the passage of prop 8.
Isnt this a gross infringement on free speech?
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_112508/content/01125109.guest.html
so… I have been reading this blog off and on… I wish I had more time on my hands to write or give you pieces of info that I have seen out here in the real world of medicine..
I work in a big Catholic Non-Profit Hospital system in TX… We have a super large population, obviously of unfunded women.. that need to get prenatal care. Our High Risk OB clinic is understaffed.. underfunded.. and part of our network.. I recently was called to meet with a mama who found out that her baby was diagnosed with some type of “lethal heart condition”.. When I looked over her records I realized that, the ultrasound was never read by a Pedi Cardiologist to confirm this diagnosis and the ultrasound machine used is sub-parr—old, has very low quality technique…
My job is to work with parents that recieve diagnosis with various fetal diagnosis that are lethal or life limiting..Help them through the pregnancy.. and guide them into a world that means not aborting..but carrying a pregnancy that values life until birth and awaits the inevitable… The problem..many women are leaving to terminate these infants that are diagnosed with horrible lethal anomalies on a machine that is unreliable.. WE cannot recieve enough funding to even recieve a good ultrasound machine.. We have MD staff that refuse our patients–b/c they don’t get paid..either b/c the patient has no insurance.. or Chip perinatal..(a type of medicaid coverage for just the pregnancy but pays MD’s so low they cannot afford to take these patients) The care they recieve is minimal..sub optimal.. scary… and un-real and unethical.
If you all want.. seriously.. As we examine parts of the world that really help folks.. Look at our medical system. Actually..a system that would provide care for all might actually help more than you think. I sit with MD’s that give their lives to helping the poor and they just can’t believe we live in a country that if you don’t have funding as an adult you get lower than sub-par care.. even if you are PREGNANT!! start looking at every day practice with the poor– the indigent…state to state… You will find it tragic.
Abortion is horrible.. I believe wrong.. you are so right and I respect your lives of dedication.. However, you simplicity in the matter is not proving to be helpful…
“Where are all those supposed pro-lifers like Doug Kmiec who supported Obama for president?”
I think Obama is done with the useful idiots now…
posted on November 25, 2008 5:30 PM
“Where are all those supposed pro-lifers like Doug Kmiec who supported Obama for president?”
—————————————————–
The ‘usefull idiots’ and ‘fellow travelers’ are the first to be abandoned. What further use is someone who is so gullible or downright stupid they would actually believe the o’bama (pbuh) meant what they thought he said.
I suppose the o’bama (pbuh) might calculate some value in keeping at least a few patsies and scapegoats in reserve. But it seems there is no shortage of obsequious, servile, sycophants, who are willing and eager to fall on their swords for their sultan of sophistries.
It’s the western version of dying for your god with the earnest expectation you will reap some heavenly reward and it will be even better for you if you can take some of the ‘enemy’ with you.
yor bro ken
Zoe: I hear what you are saying.
All Americans need to work for some kind medicare for all americans – quality medicare that is.
I live in Canada and much has been criticized about our health care system by politicians in the US. But I know my brother and my mother would not have survived illnesses without our healthcare system. My brother would not have survived ABO jaundice because my parents wouldn’t have been able to afford his treatment. My mother’s heart condition was the result of poor health care as a child. Her family was too poor to pay for a doctor. We would never have been able to pay for her heart surgery in the 1980’s which allowed her to live another 13 years.
I believe the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world. This is wrong. Let’s redirect all the money that goes to funding PP and overseas BC etc into health care for women and children. Let’s keep the children alive. Proaborts claim they have concern for born children but don’t seem to mind if they drain the government for their own agenda.
Zoe, I sympathize with your concerns. Someone should be making a stink about any kind of patient care equipment that isn’t reliable. Is administration aware of the problem? Does your facility have an ethics committee? You’d think someone would want the situation remedied before the next round of surveys.
Jill, here’s what I just don’t get about those who oppose conscience rights for health care professionals. How does forcing a physician to perform a procedure they do not believe is ethical or safe insure that the patient receives quality care?
I mean just think it through. Who wants someone who doesn’t believe in a procedure to perform it? Don’t know about you, but unless my doctor believes a procedure is indicated and ethical, I don’t want him working on me. I’d much rather have a doc who believes in what he’s doing instead of being forced to do something.
And then there’s the other side of it. Say an abortion has complications. Can the patient then sue and say the problem must have occurred because the physician wasn’t committed to performing it in the first place? Imagine, suing the doc for having a conscience! I wonder what malpractice insurance rates will jump to if FOCA passes.
Zoe,
What percentage of these patients you described are citizens or legal residents of the United States?
Why is it that I or my fellow citizens are required to educate, feed, clothe, house, and provide health care for people who are here illegally?
If our government would secure our borders and aggresively enforce our immigration laws, then we would have more money to invest and contribute to our own citizens who are in need.
The single largest export from Mexico to the USA is people. The single largest export from the USA to Mexico is american dollars. Every dollar that is sent to Mexico is one less dollar to invest in the USA. Every dollar that is spent on people who are in this country illegally is one less dollar to be invested in our own citizens.
Even the apostle Paul said the body of Christ should take care of it’s own first, then the non-believer. That is a principle that can be applied universally. If I do not see to the welfare of my own household first, then I will not be able to care for others.
yor bro ken
“Why is it that I or my fellow citizens are required to educate, feed, clothe, house, and provide health care for people who are here illegally?”
‘Cause Jesus said so….
What’s the solution, Zoe?
Hal,
Could you give me chapter and verse?
If you don’t know just ask the o’bam (pbuh). he is by his own estimation a ‘committed christian’ and he would surely know.
yor bro ken
All the pro lifers that voted for Obama were aborted and thrown under the bus. None in his team.
Jesus had a special sense of mission to poor and oppressed people. At the outset of his ministry, sometimes referred to as Jesus’ mission statement, Jesus stood up in the synagogue at Nazareth and read from the prophet Isaiah:
“The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.” (Luke 4:18-19)
The biographies of Jesus depict him repeatedly reaching out to those at the bottom of the social pyramid–poor people, women, Samaritans, lepers, children, prostitutes and tax collectors. Jesus was also eager to accept people who were well-placed, but he made clear that all, regardless of social position, needed to repent. For this reason, he invited the rich young man to sell all of his possessions and give the proceeds to the poor. (Matthew 19:16-30, Luke 18:18-30, Mark 10:17-31)
Jesus commanded, “Love your neighbor.” When asked to define “neighbor,” Jesus expanded the traditional meaning of the word–defining our neighbor as anyone who is in need, including social outcasts: “But when you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, and you will be blessed.” (Luke 14:13)
In his portrayal of the day of judgment, Jesus pictured people from all nations gathered before him, separated into “sheep” and “goats.” (Matthew 25:31-46) To the “sheep” he says, “Come you blessed of my Father, for I was hungry and you fed me…” In their astonishment they ask, “When did we do that?” And he answers, “When you did it to the lowliest of my brothers (and sisters).” Conversely, to the “goats” he says, “Out of my sight, you who are condemned, for I was hungry and you did not feed me…”
Jesus himself cared for those in need by feeding the hungry. Crowds of four thousand (Mark 8:1-13) and five thousand (Mark 6:30-44) had assembled to listen to Jesus. They soon became hungry. When his disciples suggested that Jesus send the people away to buy food, he responded by saying “I have compassion on these people…” and “you give them something to eat.” He proceeded to perform miracles to feed these large crowds of hungry people.
Hey Hal.
Got religion?
I’m proud of you man.
Hey Hal.
Got religion?
I’m proud of you man.
Posted by: HisMan at November 25, 2008 9:05 PM
Nope, got google.
In addition to Hal’s comments, I would add that Jesus healed a Roman soldier’s servant when the soldier pleaded for Jesus’ help. He used a Samaritan (foreigner to the Jews) in his parable about the definition of who is our neighbor. The only one of the ten healed lepers to thank Jesus was a foreigner. He also took time to talk to the Samaritan woman at the well.
And most important in my mind: Jesus was himself a foreigner in Egypt when his parents fled to save his life.
Also, I believe Exodus 22 and 23 deal with oppression of aliens, but I’d have to look it up to be sure. Jesus, as a practicing Jew, would have honored mosaic law.
Nice that you and I can agree on something, Hal :-)
Hal
I make several trips a year to Mexico, where I invest my time, my energy, my talents and my money to meet the needs of people who are ‘needy’. Most, but not all, are fellow members of the body of Christ. I make an effort to speak their language. I give to whomever I am led to give. I even give money to people who are alcoholics and drug addicts because I am led to do so.
If Jesus told me to sell at that I have and give it to the poor, I believe I could do that. (But I may be deceiving myself.) The proof will be if HE calls on me to do something like that.
The truth is I used to be much more generous. I do not have as much discretionary energy, time, talent, money, as I used to have. So I rely more on the ONE who gives me breath to direct my giving as HE directs my steps.
I do not rely on the ‘book’ to inform my conscience. I rely on the ONE knows my name.
yor bro ken
Fed Up, I’m certainly no expert, but I always thought the point of being a Christian was to love they neighbor. Aren’t the Mexicans our neighbors?
Hal,
Luke 11:45-46
45 one of the experts in the [Mosaic] Law answered Him, Teacher, in saying this, You reproach and outrage and affront even us!
46 But He said, Woe to you, the lawyers, also! For you load men with oppressive burdens hard to bear, and you do not personally [even gently] touch the burdens with one of your fingers.
AMP
yor bro ken
There is a difference between poor oppressed people and lazy moochers.
I have no problem with taking care of poor oppressed people. But I’m not happy about taking care of lazy moochers. It’s ironic that Jesus condemns lazy people in none other than Matthew 25:
“His master said to him in reply, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter? Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return? Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten.”
And people, in quoting Scripture, Hal is just being an obnoxious SOB like always. Don’t read too much into it.
Hal is just being an obnoxious SOB like always. Don’t read too much into it.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 25, 2008 9:34 PM
correct.
Hal,
Jesus said some pretty harsh things. There is one place in the gospels where a gentile lady came to him seeking healing for her sick daughter.
Jesus, rebuffed her, as much as called her a dog. He discriminated agains her because she was not a Jew. But she persisted, her own feeling were less important to her than her daughters well being.
Because of her persistence and her love for her daughter, Jesus granted her request.
Now, Jesus said, ‘I only say what I hear my Father saying and I only do what I see Him doing.’
That does not give me a license to be rude, but it tells me I do not have to wear myself out trying to be nicer than someones elses distorted misunderstanding of Jesus.
You are very clever. You have a quick wit. You seem to er to respect, which is a good quality. Your life wounds have made you cynical and bitter. Your greatest sin is unforgiveness toward yourself. Not for sins you have comitted against others, but for the sins you comitted against yourself.
Unforgiveness is like taking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.
I am speaking from first hand personal experience.
There is more to life than just living.
yor bro ken
hal at November 25, 2008 9:10 PM
((shaking head….))
Hal – check Isaiah 61 – you’ll see Jesus stopped in mid verse. I didn’t think you were supposed do that when reading the haftarah portion in the synagogue? He also dropped a verse.
John – you had to admit that was at least smile worthy.
“Got Religion? Nope, got google”. Hal, I love it!
“Unforgiveness is like taking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.”
This I like.
John, Hal is still my neighbor. I’m aware he doesn’t believe in Christianity, but at least he didn’t distort it in his comments. I will give him credit for that.
Yor Bro Ken, you raise a valid point in referring to Paul. And I agree with you that illegal immigration is a huge financial drain on the health care system. I don’t claim to have the answers and I don’t believe that people here illegally should get a free ride.
Hal, the point of Christianity, as I understand it, is to grow in holiness and love of God. Love of my neighbor–Mexicans, in your definition–is one way to express love for God. But it’s by no means the only or primary way of living out my faith. Beyond that, I’m not taking the bait ;-)
Hey ken – may you, Hisman and I can pray that God sends some Holy Fire from heaven (in the form of the Holy Spirit) to descend upon Hal and touch his heart.
And maybe at the same time, we can pray our own brothers would be moved toward chesed (loving-kindness).
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 25, 2008 9:58 PM
check Isaiah 61 – you’ll see Jesus stopped in mid verse. I didn’t think you were supposed do that when reading the haftarah portion in the synagogue? He also dropped a verse.
—————————————————–
Chris,
I have a friend who thinks the king james version is ‘the’ word of god. All the other versions are suspect. One reason he gives is the verse you referenced. Only in the king james is the part about healing included.
What is the ‘rest of the story’ about this?
yor bro ken
Looking at that picture up top and I can’t imagine how people would not be running like mad towards the high-ground.
Chris,
That is because we have the benefit of hindsight.
I wondered the same thing. But in the distance the wave is not as tall. As it moves in closer to shore it builds in height. People who live in areas that are prone to tsunamis know these things. The other clue is that all the water receded from the shore. What was formerly the sea bottom has become temporarily the beach. But not for long. The black boat on the right looks like it has run aground.
yor bro ken
yor bro ken
Chris:
I pray for Hal. I pray that He see Jesus. If Paul can be converted anyone can be converted.
Living in Arizona I am keenly aware of the illegal alien issue.
I run a flag football league and most of the kids we bus in are from parents that are illegal aliens. These people flee Mexico because of the government corruption down there. I’ve been down there numerous times building houses for poor people. A lot of them live right on the dump under cardboard, discarded sheetrcok and whatever other stuff they can find. I think we’d all do the same thing if we were them.
We just gave away 2,000 turkeys to mostly illegal aliens at our church service on Sunday. Many of these people accepted Christ at the service. You can’t beleive how desparate most of these people are. They are touched by God’s love.
On one hand they are breaking the law, however, I think we need to show mercy and kindness to the alien and most importantly lead them to Jesus.
All of us here in this country have much to be thankful for.
well Chris, there is actually someone running TOWARD the wave!
HisMan I like your attitude!
“Why is it that I or my fellow citizens are required to educate, feed, clothe, house, and provide health care for people who are here illegally?”
‘Cause Jesus said so….
Posted by: hal at November 25, 2008 8:15 PM
Hal,
Could you give me chapter and verse?
Posted by: kbhvac at November 25, 2008 8:49 PM
kbhvac:
Matthew 25:31-46
31″When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34″Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37″Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40″The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41″Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44″They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45″He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46″Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Hey Fed Up:
I think the point of Christianity is to love God and love our neighbor as ourself.
Isn’t that why we’re pro-life?
Our neighbor includes unborn babies and their mothers alike. However, loving a mother does not include allowing her to kill her unborn child.
Patricia @7:42 PM,
I believe the US has one of the highest infant mortality rates in the industrialized world. This is wrong. Let’s redirect all the money that goes to funding PP and overseas BC etc into health care for women and children. Let’s keep the children alive. Proaborts claim they have concern for born children but don’t seem to mind if they drain the government for their own agenda.
Yes, let’s redirect the funding immediately.
kbhvac at November 25, 2008 10:13 PM
Jesus stops reading in the middle of verse 2, citing the year of the Lord’s favor, but doesn’t mention the day of vengeance.
The favorable reference is to His first coming, while the later refers to His second coming.
Look at the word prisoners.
1 Peter 3:18-20 makes mention of Christ preaching to “prisoners” who disobeyed when the ark was being build. It’s intriguing that the word used for destroy in this verse in Genesis 6:
13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
when read non-masoretic can also mean “imprison”. In other words, to be destroyed, in a sense meant to be imprisoned.
Back to Isaiah 61:1 – why use two words for captives and prisoners?
http://scripturetext.com/isaiah/61-1.htm
I think 1 Peter 4:4 indicates at least how God inspired Peter to convey what it meant:
4They think it strange that you do not plunge with them into the same flood of dissipation, and they heap abuse on you. 5But they will have to give account to him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. 6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.
So to round it out and bring it back on-topic to the tsunami of evil, being unleased today – The reference to Isaiah 61 shows both a year of favor, and a day of judgement (achariet mut – Yom Kippur). The favor of the LORD has been declared, but the day of judgment is still to come.
All of us here in this country have much to be thankful for.
Posted by: HisMan at November 25, 2008 10:26 PM
Chris and HisMan
I have good friends who have immigrated to the US from Mexico and Central America. I do not fault people for wanting to better themselves. I would not rat out any Spanish speaking people who were here illegally unless they were doing really bad stuff. Drunk driving, selling drugs, gang members,etc.
If the table were turned I would do what they have done to provide a better life now and in the future for my family.
I have to confess, when I saw hundreds of thousands of people carrying flags from other nations protesting in different cities across the country demanding ‘rights’ I was annoyed. To me that is like an uninvited guest in my own home demanding equal rights with my family or complaining about the accomodations or the cuisine. And then to label anyone and everyone a racist who wanted to secure our borders and enforce our immigration laws added injury to the insult.
I have been to Mexico many times. Driven as far south as the nation of Guatemala. Spent a month at a time for 5 or 6 trips. You cannot legally go into the interior of Mexico or any other Central American country with out a visa and/or a passport. If I were to sneak into Mexico and organize a protest in Mexico City, if I survived I would end up in jail charged with the equivalent of a felony and if I survived jail I would be deported back to the USA. My fate would be the same if I were from Honduras, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Belize, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Panama. I might receive harsher treatment because I am not Latino, but I would never claim their immigration policy is ‘racist’.
I am confident that a significant number of illegal aliens voted in our most recent presidential elections. Can you imagine me being allowed to vote in any Central American country?
US citizens votes were effectively stolen by non-citizens. That bothers me. I don’t care who or what they voted for or against.
yor bro ken
Posted by: kbhvac at November 25, 2008 10:13 PM
I’ve found too many discrepancies in the King James to find it reliable. That’s not an outright rejection, but concern.
I rather go direct to the Hebrew and Greek, and do so by establishing the context available – meaning the Septuagint has it’s function to indicate what was meant at the time.
@ HisMan at November 25, 2008 10:26 PM
You are the most arrogant..
Just kidding, I couldn’t even finish the insult. That’s a really, really lovely thing, HisMan. I’m so impressed by that. I think I had you pegged wrong.
Posted by: Jane at November 25, 2008 10:34 PM
————————————————–
Jane,
You are taking a verse that is meant to be applied on an individual basis and extending it to a national government.
Then you are using the force of law to coerce and compel people to surrender their wealth, most of which will be squandered on administrative costs and much of what is left will be wasted on ill conceived and ill advised schemes that in many cases exacerbate the original problem.
If god delights in a cheerful giver, then I would think that involves some sort of free will or choice on the givers part. I do not see how government redistributing other peoples money fulfills the spirit or even the letter of the scriptures you use to make your point.
If Jesus indicts you and says Depart and you say wait a minute the government took my money and it was supposed to address those issues, do you think Jesus will give you a pass if you used that as an excuse not to take care of the family next door.
The good Samaritan was not a social worker, or a welfare worker, or a county hospital employee. He was just joe six pack on his way to town to take care of some business. Nothing in that parable about turning in an expense report to the local community chest to be reimbursed for his charitable giving.
I prefer to direct my own giving as the LORD directs me.
yor bro ken
You are taking a verse that is meant to be applied on an individual basis and extending it to a national government.
Maybe that is what you are talking about, but it wasn’t what I am talking about. I am answering your question in the context it was asked. I quote (again):
KBHVAC: “Why is it that I or my fellow citizens are required to educate, feed, clothe, house, and provide health care for people who are here illegally?”
Hal: ‘Cause Jesus said so….
KBHVAC: Hal, Could you give me chapter and verse?
…and that’s what I did. I gave you chapter and verse where Jesus condemns you to hell for not aiding the least of these.
Well Jane,
I presume you are using the word ‘you’ in the general sense, meaning any or all who do not care for the needy among them.
I am caring for the needy in my midst as God gives me the light to see the need and the grace to know when and how to meet it.
But on the other hand if you are bringing a railing accusation against me based on your assumptions about me and about Jesus, then I all can say is, ‘May God richly bless you with His exceedingly, abundant, amazing grace and Father God forgive her for she does not know what she is doing and God give me your exceedingly, abundant, amazing grace that I may truly forgive her.’
yor bro ken
Pretty shocking. Health care for all — assuring that no child will have to go without care because his parents can’t afford it — that nobody will have to choose between medicine and food — is anti-life? I’m shocked and saddened by this position, Jill, and more certain than ever that the parochial and political fortress from which you issue your edicts is driving more and more people away from the pro-life movement all the time, and ensuring that no proposition we support will ever pass. But I strongly sense that you would rather drink the delicious wine of self-righteous anger than actually save lives.
KBHVAC,
“You” in a general sense, just like it is used in the verses I quoted.
Nighty night.
I will run toward the wave.
Carla – I take that to mean towards the wave of death that Jill is describing, but with a David-like attitude?
Absolutely.
Do you remember the images of the firemen running into the burning towers on 9/11? That is the image I get.
My brave, fearless, Carla.
And Jill.
I had never heard of Melody Barnes, so I read her bio on Wikipedia. Very impressive selection.
But I strongly sense that you would rather drink the delicious wine of self-righteous anger than actually save lives.
Psychologists would call that a “projection” upon another of that which exists within yourself!
But I strongly sense that you would rather drink the delicious wine of self-righteous anger than actually save lives.
Posted by: tom jayson at November 26, 2008 12:05 AM
Me Too Tom?
If you like universal highway systems by the government, you’ll love universal health care sytems.
Citizens waiting in line for hours to crawl “another foot” is universally accepted by the government.
We now have universal health care, it’s called county or University hospitals districts.
You can wait in line at those GSE’s.
Okay, so “the sky is falling” yet again.
Hey Hal,
Google is helpful, but can never replace true religion. Lots of people have both, why not you?!
Lots of people don’t have religion czech, because they don’t believe in God. Or don’t believe in religion. Obvious.
You have to check out this short movie called Volition:
http://www.thedoorpost.com/hope/film/?film=420351f1aefa2b42b1772fe9d5cc044a
“Oh-oh….”
Google is helpful, but can never replace true religion. Lots of people have both, why not you?!
Posted by: reality czech at November 26, 2008 9:43 AM
If you can formulate a response if someone asked you why you don’t believe in Zeus, you’d understand my answer.
hal, I’m going to steal that one! Thanks
hal at November 26, 2008 10:03 AM
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Hal – Josephus the Jewish historian was writing about an historical figure when he referred to Jesus. He may not have attributed deity to him, but he’s not rejecting the historical evidence either.
The basic gist is – Jesus actually walked this earth and made claims. No one has yet to prove these claims false when confronting the genuine historical evidence. Without introducing your own pre-suppositions, you’d be hard pressed to prove them false yourself.
Chris,
It’s funny you should mention Jesus and history. I’ve almost finished William Lane Craig’s book “Reasonable Faith” (which I recommend to everyone), and he spends a good hundred pages discussing all the evidence we have for the historicity of the resurrection of Jesus. After Concerning one of the many pieces of evidence we have, the empty tomb, and after scrutinizing all “alternative” theories of the empty tomb, Craig writes
“A look at these [alternative to resurrection] hypothesis proffered to explain the fact of the empty tomb, it is striking that scarcely any modern historian or biblical critic would hold to these theories. They are almost completely passe. You may say to yourself at this point, ‘Well then, what explanation of teh empty tomb do modern critics offer who deny the resurrection?’ The fact is that they are self-confessedly without any explanation to offer. There simply is no plausible natural explanation available today to account for how Jesus’ tomb was empty. If we deny teh resurrection of Jesus, we are left with an inexplicable mystery.”
And this is only one line of evidence. There is much more, and he goes into great detail arguing why Jesus’ resurrection is the most probable explanation of the events. Well worth considering if one has never really looked into it.
What are we to do when the enemy comes into our domain?
1. We are not to be passive like Lot who allowed Sodomites into the city.
2. We are not to be half hearted like Joash was.
II Kings 13:18-19 “And he said, Take the arrows. And he took them. And he said unto the king of Israel, Smite upon the ground. And he smote thrice, and stayed. And the man of God was wroth with him, and said, Thou shouldest have smitten five or six times; then hadst thou smitten Syria till thou hadst consumed it: whereas now thou shalt smite Syria but thrice.”
3. We are not to be hopeless!
a. No weapon formed against us shall prosper. Isaiah 54:17 “No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.”
b. We are more than conquerors. Romans 8:37 “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.”
c. God always causes us to triumph. II Corinthians 2:14 “Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.”
d. The Spirit will raise a standard against the enemy. Isaiah 59:19 “So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him.”
e. We are to submit ourselves to God and resist the enemy. James 4:7 “Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”
4. We are to seek the Lord like David.
II Samuel 5:19 “And David enquired of the LORD, saying, Shall I go up to the Philistines? wilt thou deliver them into mine hand? And the LORD said unto David, Go up: for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hand.”
II Samuel 5:23 “And when David enquired of the LORD, he said, Thou shalt not go up; but fetch a compass behind them, and come upon them over against the mulberry trees.”
5. We are to wait upon God.
II Samuel 5:24 “And let it be, when thou hearest the sound of a going in the tops of the mulberry trees, that then thou shalt bestir thyself: for then shall the LORD go out before thee, to smite the host of the Philistines.”
6. We are to see the work of God by faith.
Joshua 6:2 “And the LORD said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.”
7. We are to be aggressive.
a. David ran toward Goliath. I Samuel 17:48 “And it came to pass, when the Philistine arose, and came and drew nigh to meet David, that David hasted, and ran toward the army to meet the Philistine.”
b. One day, I was standing in my office telling the story that a missionary friend had told me about scorpions that invaded their home in Old Mexico when something strange happened. I was telling the story to illustrate our authority over the enemy. The missionary said that they tried everything to get rid of the scorpions and nothing seemed to work. Finally, they just prayed them out. As I conclude the story, I look at the floor and there was a scorpion at my feet. I simply lifted my shoe and stepped on it. I don’t think that I had seen a scorpion in the building prior to this. God gives us some neat illustrations. Some years later, I was again telling the story to discover another scorpion at my feet.
c. At one time when I was doing some prison ministry, there was a riot in the prison. At first, I was not informed about the riot and was wondering why no one had shown up for the ministry time. We were showing Christians movies weekly. We only were permitted a couple of hours to show the movie and get out. When we found out about the riot, we prayed and decided not run but wait to see what God would do. When the guards secured the situation, the men who wanted to come to the movie were permitted to come. That evening, about twice the number of men as usual came and twice the usual number got saved. Furthermore, since it was not our fault that the movie was delayed one hour because of the riot, the guards gave us a much time as we needed to minister. God got the victory.
8. We are to turn anger into the zeal of the Lord.
John 2:15-17 “And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers’ money, and overthrew the tables; And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house an house of merchandise. And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.”
Note: This is a very strong statement concerning the emotion that Jesus expressed. Jesus illustrated that one should turn the anger into a zeal to do something about the problem.
9. We are to be violently aggressive toward the enemy.
a. The gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church. Matthew 16:18 “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Note: It is not a picture of the little church that is standing as the target of the enemy. It is an an aggressive picture of the church going out against the gates of hell and overcoming them.
b. We are to violently take back the kingdom of God. Matthew 11:12 “And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.”
Note: The church is not to be violent against individuals, but is to be very, very spiritually violent against the spiritual powers of darkness.
c. We are to take on the armor of God and war in prayer. Ephesians 6:18 “Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.”
Illustration: I was sharing the gospel with someone who had studied many of the world religions and bound up in them by evil spirits. When I called for a commitment, there was doubt and confusion. I asked if I could pray for him and he agreed. In my prayer I bound the spirits that had blinded the individual (see Praying For the Lost). Then I again asked if the person would be willing to commit his life to Christ as Lord and he responded, “Yes.” I then led the individual in a salvation prayer.
“There simply is no plausible natural explanation available today to account for how Jesus’ tomb was empty. If we deny teh resurrection of Jesus, we are left with an inexplicable mystery.”
There are many inexplicable historical mysteries from 2000 years ago.
But does any of it have the same, overwhelming amount of evidence that points to one clear and most obvious explanation that many people are unwilling to accept based on philosophical rather than historical considerations? What Craig argues is that it isn’t a mystery. If you take away the one explanation that is best fit by the data, then yes, it becomes unexplainable. But why throw out the best possible explanation that fits the data? As philosopher Antony Flew always says, you go where the evidence leads.
I think people want to believe it, that’s why they do. The existence of God and the stories in the bible explained alot of things for people before scientific discoveries provided the answers.
Posted by: asitis at November 26, 2008 12:36 PM
If you were scientific about it, then you would have to follow the evidence to it’s conclusions.
When you jump to your own conclusion, then you’re not being scientific at all.
Bobby, maybe I should read the book. Reserection simply doesn’t seem to be the “obvious explanation” to me. But, I’m more ignorant of this subject than most people. I will tell you, however, I’d be more willing to believe that Obama’s birth certificate was a forgery than the story you hold so dear.
Anyway, we don’t need to have this dispute again. Reality Czech asked me I question. I answered it. I stand by my answer. For everyone else, believe what you wish.
BTW – simply having an answer doesn’t mean that you reached it scientifically.
When asked about the origin of mankind directly, Richard Dawkins basically went Raelian on Ben Stein in Expelled. Rather than accepting that Dawkins actually made that statement, those who don’t want it to be true simply attack Stein – thus making themselves looking unreasonable and not worthy of serious discourse.
Chris, do you still believe.. oh let’s see… that the earth is the center of the universe, because how could God not make it so? C’mon.You know that we know a whole lot more than we did 2000 years ago.
(Patricia, thinks I think Toronto is the centre of the universe but I really know it’s the sun. And see Pat, I spelled it just for you!)
asitis,
Have you seen The Privileged Planet yet? Amazing. :)
Yeh.. uh, no. Carla, I am a scientist. Don’t get me started. I’m not going to get into an evolution debate with a group of people who pray about pants, think contraception is murder and believe the earth is 6000 years old. And those are the so-called moderates here. No, thank you.
Bobby:
Let’s not forget that Jesus appeared to over 500 people after the resurrection as well as to the apostles.
The proof of Jesus’ was in the changed hearts of these people, totally defeated losers at the crucifixion to world changers after His appearance.
That’s how each of us, if we truly believed in and trusted Jesus, should view oursleves, as world changers. After all, isn’t our faith and trust in Him proof that He has visited us personally as well? The Bible says faith is a gift from God and no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws Him. Please think about that.
IN a sense, we pro-lifers have been crucified with this election. Let’s not forget that we are more than conquerors throught Christ. The best is yet to come. Sorrow comes at night but rejoicing in the morning.
Asitis:
If evolution is indeed how man came into existence, did the heart evolve before the nervous system? Did the 60,000 miles of veins, arteries and capillaries evolve before the heart? Did the brain evolve simulatneously with the nervous system? What about the kidneys? Also, how did the fist human infants survive into adulthood? They did not need care? Do you believe in flash evolution? If so, is this not evidence of creation?
What about thought. Who had the first thought?
Do you not see any design or wisdom in how the human body is organized?
And you think this happened all ny natural selection and random mutation? If this is true where are all the intermediate species?
And does not evolution require that one species change into another species? Where’s the objective evidence for that? I mean I can understand how climate can favor long haired dogs over shirt haired dogs but does not cause a dog to become a cat or a mouse or an ape or a fish.
And isn’t the presence of fossils present in sedimentary layers proof of a cataclysmic flood just as described in the Bible?
HisMan, your attempts to debate science are about as lame as my attempts to debate religion. Stick to what you know.
And, I hope you and your family have a wonderful day of Thanksgiving.
HisMan,
“Let’s not forget that Jesus appeared to over 500 people after the resurrection as well as to the apostles.”
Yes, this is just a small part of Craig’s second line of evidence which is “the explanation of the post-resurrection appearances.” His third line of evidences is the origin (not spread of) the apostles belief in the resurrection. Fascinating.
Asitit,
What kind of scientist are you, if you don’t mind me asking?
asitis,
Well, thanks for the chit chat. :P
” I will tell you, however, I’d be more willing to believe that Obama’s birth certificate was a forgery than the story you hold so dear.”
LOL
I don’t mind you asking at all Bobby. I am an Earth Scientist. Bachelor and Master degrees. You will appreciate now why I am still laughing at HisMan’s idea that evidence of the Great Flood can be found in sedimentary rock. I must have missed that lecture!
Thanks, asitis. I know NOTHING of earth science, which is quite unfortunate. I’m sure you’d agree :)
I like you Bobby!
Everyone likes Bobby…
Please answer the question Asitis.
Where are most fossils found?
Asitis:
Your response is not uncommon.
When asked for facts and the obvious, you respond with ridicule.
The point is, there is absolutely no evidence for evolution whatsoever.
Not willing to admit this as truth because doing such would require that one admit that there is a force or god or designer, you respond with ridicule.
Do you have any idea how arrogant and unscientific this is?
Science requires an idea, evidence and conclusions. What makes evolution so unscientific is that there is no evidence. Darwin proposed and idea and made some astounding conclusions without and evidence whatsoever. Those in your profession know this. It is sad that the whole profession of earth science is run by a host of dishonest people who have through time beleived one another’s lies.
Please sumbit one, just one proof of evolution and I will keep my mouth shut. Otherwise please keep your insults to yourself.
Please keep this in mind too. I am a scientist and a theologist. However, I choose to believe the evidence and follow the scietific method unlike many in the so-called scientific world.
Most fossils are found in sedimentary rock HisMan. Sigh….. What’s your point? (Be warned though. I will not be dragged into any nonsense.)
Okay HiMan, that’s what I called nonsense.
And you’re a scientist are you. Really? What’s your degree in? And please, please don’t say Christian Science.
Yllas:
You know not whereof you speak, when you say:
“Citizens waiting in line for hours to crawl “another foot” is universally accepted by the government.
We now have universal health care, it’s called county or University hospitals districts.”
1: I’ve lived and worked in Canada and France and I can tell you that the depiction of the health care system in those countries you have bought into is a pure fabrication, a fantasy spun by Big Med over here. People go to see doctors and get treatments with no more delay or aggravation than they do here, and often much more quickly, and more importantly nobody ever has to go without the care they need, ever. That, to me, is pro-life.
2. I don’t know if you are a parent, but I am, and I know that I can’t get a check-up for my kids, or have a doctor see my son because he’s had sniffles for three days, or get regular vaccinations, or pre-natal care, or any other non-emergency-related medical care at the County hospital near my house. All I can get there is an emergency room in which I’ve had to wait six hours to be seen. On the other hand, when a friend I was traveling with needed urgent medical care in Strasbourg, France, she was whisked into an emergency room almost the second we came through the door. She was treated overnight and released the next day and there was no paperwork — they only asked her name so they knew what to call her by.
Posted by: asitis at November 26, 2008 3:12 PM
(The rocks are dated by the bones and the bones are dated by the rocks…round and round we go!)
So, umm…rocks are evolving too?
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=839b3ae1-264a-4e61-a6f5-d464d5f0f923
I’m an engineer Asitis, a registered engineer, an aerospace engineer, a construction engineer, a forensic engineer, with a Masters Degree in Theology.
But enough about me, there are literally thousands of scientists and engineers and physicians who completely understand the scientific method would disagree with your assertions and you know this as well.
Not to mention that evolution breaks just about every physical and mathematical law in the universe including the first and second laws of thermodynamics and laws of probability.
So, my efforts here are not in proving you wrong, but in countering your rather arrogant comments and innuendo that those of us who don’t “believe” or have faith in evolution, because in fact that’s what it takes to accept it, are somehow cranially chellenged.
The facts are that we live in a society where there are about 5% of us who know the truth, 90% who don’t and the 5% of you guys who have control of the educational institutions and a monopoly over out kids minds. In fact, your 5% are more dangerous to science than any Bible ever was.
Asitis, perhaps you are a victim of your circumstances where you really never questioned the status quo. My prayer for you is that you be set free from psuedo science bondage and mind control.
Wow Hisman. That’s all I can say. Wow.
So you call yourself an engineer. Well, that’s not really specific. Are you saying you have a Bachelor of Science in Engineering from a recognized university and are a Professional Engineer? I kinda doubt it. In fact, I kinda doubt you are employable. But I could be wrong – just no one sits with you at lunch. Because the scientists and engineers you’d work with certainly wouldn’t have much time for you.
So what about that degree…..
Thanks Chris. That article was news to me. Interesting. Of course the “evolution” of minerals they are talking about is quite different from biological evolution.
Asitis, HisMan is a nice man with some very strange beliefs. I’ve never met anyone like him in real life, but I believe he is real. I didn’t always hold this view. For a long while, I was convinced it was some sort of act I just didn’t understand.
As long as no one believes his rantings, he’s harmless.
Asitis,
I am adamant about staying out of religious debates on this blog. But I must say I haven’t seen an intelligent argument from you disputing what Hisman says. If you have an intelligent argument please, let’s hear it.
Hal,
You know exactly who the believers are on this site.
There are many that believe what HisMan believes. Have you forgotten MK so soon?
I don’t think MK believes the earth is 6000 years old.
I know MK is more compassionate about many social issues.
And, of course, I disagree with most of MK’s social and religious positions. I think she’s a fine woman, but I don’t agree with her on much.
Mary, I am not going to bother presenting an intelligent argument to what HisMan is saying, because he doesn’t deserve it. It’s ridiculous. That this issue is even debated in America is one of the reasons other countries think little of ours. When I first moved here, I was shocked and then incredibly frustrated when I heard people say “Oh, I don’t believe in evolution” or even “I don’t believe in science”. They way I finally came to terms with this is by appreciating that the scientific facts contradict their religious stories such that they both can’t be right. And because their faith is so strong they choose to ignore the science. That’s fine – just don’t try to dispute the science.
Good night
Asitis,
Whatever. I always maintain an intelligent argument is the best offense.
Good nite
You’re right Mary. But no doubt HisMan has heard the intelligent arguments. He just chooses to ignore them. I’m not going to change that so why bother trying. I’m only being realistic. Plus it would only give him a chance to rant.
You know not whereof you speak, when you say:
“Citizens waiting in line for hours to crawl “another foot” is universally accepted by the government.
We now have universal health care, it’s called county or University hospitals districts
See, you are off to France and Canada, and other areas of the world.
I could care less about those nations.
First, do you own property?
What is a escrow account.
Within that escrow account is the hospital district rate, which is always the highest taxing rate per one hundred dollars.
You pay for that medical care by being taxed on your home . You pay again when you use their services, even though you have pre paided by paying your hospital tax. Hey, it’s universal health care provided by the city or county idiot!!! But, if you are ever in a accident and you are taken to a county or University hospital, do you really think it’s free fool????
They bill you as surely as does a private health care provider. And if you don’t pay their outrageous public health care bill, generated by a accident, they lien your house peckerwood.
How STUPID do you think people are, peckerwood?
In the USA cities have hospital districts that are a compulsory taxing entity.
They are public owned and they are where people wait in line for hours. Evidently you need to go to your local university or County hospital and say you need to see a doctor. Better yet, go to the emergency room and see how long you wait for some service.
Asitis:
I can assure you that I am a BSME from a top engineering school.
This you lack my friend, a godly perspective. Ignore God’s word at your own peril. Wisdom begins witht he fear of the Lord.
You haven’t answered one of my questions regarding the second law of thermodynamics, how the heart, brain, nervous system, cardiovascular system all had to evolve simultaneously in order for human beings to be. You’ve given no explanation as to the astronomical improbability of this happening. C’mon teach me. Show me the scientific data and evidence that proves evolution.
Here’s the real tragedy.
God puts eternity in our hearts and it actually takes an act of the will to deny this.
So let’s stop the insults at how dumb you think I am and whether or not I really have an engineering degree.
Just provide one, just one, evidenciary fact for evolution; you cannot my frined, you cannot, and that’s why you keep insulting me and making excuses.
This too. I think the scietific method works just fine. That’s why I am asking you for just one shred of evidence that proves beyond the shadow of a doubt that evolution is a fact. You can’t, therefore, you insult me. In fact, your mind automiatically goes into overload because you cannot allow yourself to believe for a nanosecond that evolution is a lie and actaully takes more faith to believe in than the rock solid truth of Jesus Christ having lived, died and being resurrected.
If you think evolution is true, you think you have bacterial ancestors. But if you think creation is true, you think bacteria can make only bacteria and people can only make people. The idea that bacteria can only make bacteria is supported by genetics, biochemistry, living animals, and fossils. Every field of science supports creation and falsifies evolution.
The Bible states that the Flood was a global event of cataclysmic proportions and the facts from geolpgy support this concept. On every continent there are billions of fossils buried in sedimentary rock. Sedimentary rock is deposited by water. The only way these fossils were buried under sedimentary rock was by a flood.
Sedimentaty layering and strata were formed when a flood of cataclysmis proportions literally ripped the world apart. Imagine this if you can, water covering the face of the earth up to the highest mountains. That earthly soup that resulted included soils of differing densities, dead animals and plant material settling within the layers as the water receded. Imagine the hydrostatic pressure on the soils at what is now sea level when there was 5 miles of water on top of it. Imagine the affects of this pressure.
To ignore the evidence of a Great Flood is monumentally foolish.
Asitis:
I also believe in natural selection. However, natural selection does not prove evolution. Mutation occurs within species. Bacterial mutations cause new bacteria to result but bacterial mutations don’t result in a new species. That mutations within sepcies result in new species has NEVER been proven, and NEVER will be proven because it is a lie. The Bible says, “after their own kind”.
If I am wrong provide just one instance of proof where mutation within a species resulted in a new species.
Hal:
You’re gloating again. Don’t. This is a huge mistake.
Any honest scientist will tell you that you cannot determine the age of sedimentary rock (rock deposited by water) by redoimetric dating. Guess what, 75% of the geological column’s rcoks are? You got it, sedimaetary rock! Gues what types of rock 99% of the earth’s fossils are found in? Yep, sedimentary rock!
Asitis, I suggest you start studying about who the real Rock is…Jesus Christ!
Here’s the facts Asitis:
Evolution is a religion and a false one at that, and one that leads to eternal death.
Mutations or changes in teh genetic content of organisms, especaillly with repsect to the higher order of animals, are alwasy detrimental, and often lethal. While some mutations may prove “benficial” under certain conditions, changing those conditions usually renders teh “benefit” almost uselss. In fact, populations of organizsms often osciallate between two or moe types of change – a wonderful testimony to the adaptive design within all livng creatures. In gneral, mutations are either neutral or they reduce or eliminate a pre-exisitng cellular activity, such as loss of trasnport systtesm. regualtory systems, enzyme specificity, etc.
Hoever, this is the opposite of what is required by evolution. Rather, to account for all the diverstiy of life, evolution requires mutations that account for the origin of these specific celular activites. Despite hundreds of examples of mutations in a wide variety of species, there is no unambiguous example of a mutation that fulfills this requirement. And, if scuh an exception were found, it would be just that – a rare exception. This is not a reasonable basis for an entire theory of biological development and diversity.
Yllas,
Gosh, I actually have no idea what you are saying. I’m saying that county emergency rooms don’t equal useful day-to-day health care, that in the supposedly richest country in the world people die for lack of good health care, that in lots of other countries (which exist whether youc are about them or not) excellent national health care, active free enterprise, strong economies and personal freedoms all happily coexist, and I believe they are finally about to coexist here. The French, the Swedish and the Canadians have all of our freedoms of press, speech, etc. They manage to get rich if they’re smart and ambitious. And nobody goes without doctor visits and medicine whenever they need them.
Wow. HisMan, you went on a tear last night. Glad I went to bed.
“The only way these fossils were buried UNDER sedimentary rock was by a flood”. I think I liked that one the best.
Look guy, I’m going to be as nice as possible because hal says you are a nice man, just with very strange beliefs. You don’t have an understanding of geology. If you are interested, go back and take a university course in basic geology and then glacial geology, stratigraphy, sedimentology and palaentology. I don’t have the time (nor the desire) to explain it all to you…. I have a turkey to cook. Happy Thanksgiving.
PS Oh, and Charlie on GodTube is not a real scientist. Just in case. But he makes for a good laugh.
Tom Jayson, 12:17am
Is that why a wealthy Canadian friend of Hillary’s came to the US for breast cancer treatment? Why didn’t she stay in her own country? Do low and middle income Canadian women have the same option?
Do you think much of the health care issues in this country could stem from people not taking any personal responsibility for their own health? I mean people who abuse cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, and are obese. You’d be surprised the well educated obese people I know who see no connection between their obesity and health problems. How many people end up with permanent disability because of drunk drivers?
A doctor volunteered his services to provide prenatal at no cost to a low income community near me. Not one pregnant woman came in. The doctor was particularly concerned that these women smoked, drank, abused drugs, and were eating poorly. Yet, apparently they didn’t care enough about themselves or their babies to seek help that was available at no cost.
I think the best analogy is to the fire dept. Most cities have top notch fire depts. Yet we acknowledge the FD can only do so much. People must take responsibility for their own homes and safety as well. We don’t hold the FD responsible because someone didn’t install a smoke alarm and lost their home as a result.
The same is true with medical care.
Mary having lived in both countries, I think the answer to health care lies somewhere between what the US and Canada currently has. Hopefully the new government will find the way to make this work FOR ALL.
Asitis,
Certainly neither system is flawless, I just don’t see the gov’t as any solution. This bunch has enough trouble running a post office and don’t get me started on the fiasco known as medicare.
I see more personal responsibility for our own health as a major start. Its been my experience Asitis that when people think services are “free”, they abuse them, resulting in expanding costs and limited services. I remember people bringing their entire families into the ER for head colds because it was “free”, i.e. someone else was footing the bill. They could have just as easily and far more cheaply called a pharmacist.
Rescue services in our city were free of charge, until the abuse became so bad the city had to start charging.
You’d be surprised the people who feel no obligation to pay their medical bills, even when the hospital helps them set up a payment plan.
I also never saw anyone denied care that needed it.
Also, its amazed me how busy the plastic surgeons in my city are, and we ain’t talking Beverly Hills. Very middle income people can come up with thousands for cosmetic work. Don’t get me wrong, I have no issue with this at all.
Obviously people can find the money if they want to badly enough. Sadly some people’s priorities are booze, drugs, and cigarettes, and hard living, not their health.
That’s why I said something in between Mary. Neither the US nor Canadian system is great. Both need to be improved.
Thank you, asitis, for the moderate approach: yes, both systems have something to offer, which is why I like Obama’s proposal, which does not go all the way to the single-payer system the left-most edge of congress is asking for.
And Mary — I think we have an obligation to take care of each other. You seem to have a very low opinion of people, particularly poor people. I wonder why that is. The situations you describe don’t happen in France or Germany.
Thanks Tom.
For example: I think Canada would do well to introduce a small user fee for ER and doctor’s visits. Not enough to make it necessary care unafforable but enough to make them think carefully about whether it is necessary or not.
Hisman:
God is love, the Bible is a beautiful moral guide to our actions, and your life has meaning even with the earth being billions of years old.
To ignore the evidence of a Great Flood is monumentally foolish.
Posted by: HisMan at November 26, 2008 10:43 PM
Tell me how Noah got all those animals on one boat?
Santa helped him hal!
Hal,
There are LIBRARIES describing, in great “scientific” detail, how Noah got all the animals on one boat, and what the Bible meant by “kind”, and on and on and on. There are universities devoted to this craziness. There is no arguing with it whatsoever. I’ve tried. I am now in recovery from trying.
Good idea Tom. But, I’m still giggling a bit. Wonder how he got the Polar Bear and Bison to get along with the alligator and banana slug.
Santa could have helped with the Polar Bear issue hal. I’m no expert on the Bible. Does it say anything at all about a jolly, plump stranger from the north? He’d be great – all that reindeer experience, works well under pressure and in adverse weather conditions…..
Tom Jayson,
Why do you assume I’m referring to poor people? Maybe because you assume poor people are more likely to be irresponsible? Don’t project your prejudices on to me Tom. I never specified socioeconomic status. I specified people who do not take any kind of personal responsibility. This includes people in all socioeconomic statuses. Didn’t I also mention well educated people who do not see a connection between their obesity and their health problems?
I am all for providing care to those in need and have done so for years. I’ve cared for derelicts off the street and society matrons. I’ve cared for extremely dangerous people who would have cut my throat as soon as look at me.
Yes the people I know personally who continue to abuse drugs, alcohol, and cigarettes should have the health care they need and they get it.
So spare me any claptrap as to how I do not care for people.
I still maintain people must take more responsibility for their own health and too many people do not.
Using my fire dept. analogy again, I will point out that people are careless about fire safety. Does that mean I don’t think the fire dept. should respond? Certainly not.
In France and Germany do people take more personal responsiblity?
I did jump to some conclusions there, Mary, and you are right to call me on it.
As for your final question, I’d say people take or do not take the same amount of responsibility everywhere. I’m not a nationalist. I think countries are a dangerous figment. I don’t think God sees them, acknowledges them or has any use for them. I think He’s waiting for us all to grow up and get over them once and for all.
That’s good to hear Tom. Not a common thing in this Greatest Nation in the World.
Tom, interesting comments. Tell you what – I think that tribalism is deeply ingrained in us, by country, religion, etc., and for better or worse it doesn’t go away.
Tom Jayson,
Not a problem. Over the internet it is easy to misinterpret what is being said. I’ve done it more times than I care to admit to.
As for you last statement I will stick to my hard and fast rule. No theological comments or debates! :)
Doug,
You are right that tribalism is deeply ingrained in us. But look at Europe. Two thousand years of Teutons killing Franks killing Saxons and finally, a generation or so after World War II, they they all woke up and said “What was THAT about?” — and now they have one currency, no documents checks at border crossings and a strong (if fragile) sense of shared purpose. Who’s to say that can’t happen to the whole world?
Only let’s hope it doesn’t take mass death and conflagration to make it happen…
TomJayson,
We seem to overlook that since the dawn of mankind life has been a universal and brutal struggle to survive. Contrary to political correctness, tribal and/or native peoples didn’t spend their time loving each other and frolicking with the bunny rabbits in the forest. For the most part they were killing each other. Tribalism was crucial to survival. Who could you trust? Who didn’t want what you had, be it good hunting lands, food, people, or any kind of wealth. Your well armed, rambunctious, and powerful neighbors could make you very nervous.
The land belonged to whoever could hold on to it, or take it from you.
Remember the movie Conan the Barbarian? While it was fiction, the opening scene of Conan’s family and tribe being decimated indicated what life was like. The voice over stated that no one ever knew Conan’s people existed. This about summed up living. You were here one day, gone the next.
Mary,
You are so right about early tribal society! I hate the sentimentalization of primitive cultures. What I’m saying is that hopefully, as we move forward through history, we can get beyond the instinct to kill the next tribe over so we get the caribou before they do — an instinct which is, in the modern world, more destructive than useful. Today’s borderless Europe is an example of the value, and possibility, of letting that go. Not going to be easy, though…
Tom, also a good point about Europe, yet I wonder how much it would take to shatter that sense of shared purpose.
I’ve long thought that the US and Canada joining would be an efficent thing, much as the European Union, or much as the US is today, versus having individual countries in what is now the US.
If we are getting into a period of pretty rough economic times, and if the European Union stays together, then that’ll be showing me something.
Doug, not too many Canadians would be for that idea. There’s the problem of the US having 10 times the population and being more of a world presence than Canada – Canada could be swallowed up! Also, the very conversations you have on this website about such “issues” as contraception, abortion, women’s rights, homosexuality, gay rights and evolution you don’t have in Canada or Europe, or more rarely. While the countries are neighbours and alike in so many ways, they are also very different. Talk about becoming one country and you’ll get ahockey puck hurled at your head!
But enough about me, there are literally thousands of scientists and engineers and physicians who completely understand the scientific method would disagree with your assertions and you know this as well.
Agreed and there are plenty of geologists, stratigraphers, sedimentologists, biologists, biochemists, physicists and mathematicians who also feel evolution as currently defined in untenable. There are a great deal of assumptions made in radiometric dating and the dates are often highly disputed.
In the 1970’s uniformitarianism was the theory in vogue. Lately it’s been catastrophism.
IMO the complexity of organisms is one region why I don’t believe in evolution.To me the complexity points to an intelligent being who has designed everything. How? We just don’t necessarily know.
I think that since evolution is not proven, asitis, you should be open to all possibilities.