Backlash on “Obama supporters are idiots” poll
I wrote last week about a Zogby poll and short film showing Obama supporters didn’t have a clue who their candidate really was.
Well, Amanda Carpenter reported yesterday on the – surprise! – virulent backlash from the Left….
John Ziegler didn’t know the kind of fury the Left would unleash on him when he unveiled his web video “How Obama Got Elected“.
The 10-minute short features 12 interviews he conducted with Obama supporters at Los Angeles polling stations on Election Day and the final product “isn’t flattering” to liberals. His subjects couldn’t answer basic questions like, “Who controls Congress?” and “Who is Nancy Pelosi ?” or “Who is Harry Reid ?”. They could, however, correctly answer questions about GOP vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin’s pregnant daughter and wardrobe budget without any problem.
The web video spread like wildfire around the internet, getting more than 1.4 million views. Ziegler plans to include the interviews in a forthcoming film titled, Media Malpractice…How Obama Got Elected.
See his website and video here.
As a result, Ziegler’s e-mail in-box has been flooded with profanity-laced e-mails accusing him of racism, bigotry and hate mongering….
Ziegler argues that he never intended to make Obama supporters look bad. Rather, they could not answer the questions because the media misinformed them throughout the election….
The Zogby poll found 57.4% of Obama supporters could not correctly say which party controls Congress. Only 6.2% of those same supporters failed to identify Palin as having a pregnant daughter.
See poll results here….
Ziegler is now planning to commission a similar poll to assess the political intelligence of those who voted for GOP presidential candidate John McCain. Zogby, however, is refusing to do it. After receiving a great amount of backlash from Obama supporters, Zogby said they will not be conducting the McCain poll.
“I believe there was value in the poll we did,” John Zogby told the Politico. “I also believe it was not our finest hour. This slipped through the cracks. It came out critical only of Obama voters.”
Ziegler said he didn’t originally conduct such a poll for McCain voters because his documentary is focusing on how Obama got elected, not McCain. He will likely include the McCain poll results in the film and along with more detail about the outcry over his original poll.
“All this controversy proves the overriding premise — that the media helped Obama get elected”, Ziegler said.
It’s actually none of Zogby’s business if an entity commissioning a poll wants to focus on only one segment of the population. People and groups do that all the time.
[HT: Dr. Frank]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Shoddy push-polls always get backlash because they are well… shoddy push polls. The poor phrasing of the questions and their veracity has been called into question by multiple statisticians most notably Nate Silver of 538.com. Zogby’s reputation as a pollster has been going down-hill for awhile and this latest product just increases the velocity of the organization’s descent.
for more about Push-polling and this poll in particular: http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/zogby-engages-in-apparent-push-polling.html
NObama supporters were so big on “change” but so far his new administration sounds like Bill Clinton’s third term… and maybe Jimmy Carter’s second.
He’s appointed 81 year old Paul Volker, first appointed by Carter.
And we all know how well the economy did under Carter!
But Carter, at least, was pro life.
Ah Carter. Lines for gas, instability in the Middle East, unimaginable inflation and interest rates. Yes, Volker seems like the perfect choice for the Economic Recovery Board since he did so well as Chairman of the Federal Reserve.
YLT,
The questions sounded pretty straight forward to me. How much more easy could they be? Who’s the majority party in the congress? Who is Nancy Pelosi? This is the woman who made history as first woman speaker of the house. Don’t these people ever pick up a newpaper?
I will agree the media as been very derelict in it responsiblity, especially concerning Obama’s plans to bankrupt anyone building a coal powered electrical plant. Or perhaps very biased would be a more accurate description.
What I really found disturbing was the robotic chanting by mesmerized followers at the beginning of the video. It sounded like religious chanting, repeating Obama over and over interspersed with how he would better the world.
Maybe that says it all about Obama followers. People caught up in a messianic trance.
Tengo: Blame the messenger! Squawk! Blame the messenger! Squawk!
I don’t see why it’s Zogby’s fault if a bunch of imbeciles who are voting for “CHANGE” vote for the SAME EXACTLY PARTY which already controls Congress. Is that CHANGE???
It’s also not Zogby’s fault if Obama voters have no clue who Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are, but know all about Bristol Palin.
And, it’s not Zogby’s fault that when Obama voters are told STUPID things that Obama has said on the campaign trail, none of the Obama supporters had ever heard any of them, but they all assumed that Sarah Palin had said them.
But sure, go ahead and nitpick about the wording of a handful of the questions when the reality is that the poll proved that most Obama voters are completely ignorant fools who have been willfully misled by the media.
YLT,
The “veracity” and “phrasing” of the questions? Which questions weren’t truthful? As phrasing, was there a problem because some of the words contained more than one syllable?
I meant to write: As for phrasing…
Joanne 7:19PM
I understand that one of the members of Obama’s economic transition team is Michigan governor Jennifer Granholm. She has succeeded in driving Michigan into the ground.
In fact, when I mentioned this to my elderly mother who, like most of my family is a Michigan resident, she nearly fell off the couch laughing.
She can do for the entire country what she’s done to.. uh, for.. Michigan.
Yes, Michigan! The ultimate example of “compassionate” economic liberalism. Detroit is like a cancerous tumor in the body of America. I hear they have trouble selling out games to their multi-Stanley Cup winning ice hockey team because of all of the crime which keeps people away, and of course because the economy is so bad in Michigan that people can’t afford to go to the games.
Mary 8:12 PM and Kristen 7:29 PM
I’ve said before NObama voters are going to get what they deserve. Unfortunately everyone else is going to have to suffer as well.
The economy is almost certain to get much, much worse under NObama. Not to mention the culture of death.
I dont look forward to 2009. :(
John,
I was born and raised in Detroit. Still a source of great pride to me.
Joanne,
I just saw a headline about the economy that read “Obama says ‘Help is on the way.'” I couldn’t stop laughing at that.
Shoot the messenger! That seems to be the moral of the story here.
Kristen,
Where is it coming from? All I’ve seen is some poor soul Obama had to call out of retirement and a totally inept governor.
Mary, I’m a proud Pittsburgher who can do little more than watch as my city is Detroit’ed to death by the same kinds of liberal Democrats who are “here to help”.
Obama should go immediately to the TajMahal hotel in India to negotiate with the hostage takers.
John,
Oh yes, like forced bussing, aka social engineering, that had a devastating impact on neighborhoods and communities. It was based on the racist and patronizing premise that black children “needed” to be with white children in order to learn.
I attended integrated schools from kindergarten on before these geniuses wrecked everything. Guess what, we all sat in the same classrooms, had black and white teachers(for whom respect was always shown), lived in the same neighborhoods, played on the same playgrounds, and managed this all very nicely until the social engineers came along. My advice to these great thinkers in diversity and multiculturalism is this. If you want people to overlook differences, don’t make an issue of them in the first place! Oh, and go out and do something productive, like get real jobs.
ts,
Absolutely! If you just talk nice to people, they’ll listen to reason. I’ve always argued that if black people had just sat down and reasoned with the klan there would never have been any lynchings.
The Jews in Nazi Germany as well. Why didn’t they try to better understand why the Nazis hated them?
Mary, I especially like how there’s no such thing as truly evil men, they’re just misunderstooooood. Like the Islamic fascists, they’re not evil, they’re just upseeeet about our invaaaaasion of their land.
Then after bending over backwards and doing the most amazing contortions to “prove” that Islamic fascists are not really evil, they tell us that George W. Bush is definitely evil. Now the latest thing is that the Pilgrims were evil, so we shouldn’t dress up like Pilgrims and Indians for Thanksgiving since the Pilgrims were soooo mean to the Indians. Uh…. WHAT?
John,
We had a spate of police killings years ago and of course the bleeding hearts were blaming society and the police. Never mind that these thugs had criminal records as long as their arms.
Snot nosed kids from suburbia were screaming “fascism” if any effort was made to convict these dregs.
Anyway, I knew a police officer and he asked me if I noticed that anyone who had killed a cop and was let go ended up dead?
It occured to me that yes, these guys were dying “mysteriously”. Midnite stabbings in front of their homes,etc.
The police officer just looked at me and smiled. I didn’t ask any questions.
Joanne,
I just saw a headline about the economy that read “Obama says ‘Help is on the way.'” I couldn’t stop laughing at that.
Posted by: Kristen at November 26, 2008 8:56 PM
Well the media has been in the tank for him all along. I guess they believe NObama will save us from disaster.
Actually he is going to lead us to it.
I’ve even heard it suggested that his appointees being sworn in now. Why wait until the inauguration?
It’s ironic the way he mezmerized crowds during the campaign, all the talk about “hope and change”. I wonder how much confidence he is inspiring in his followers now? I mean now he is going back to the Carter administration?
Joanne,
Surely you’re aware the Annointed One ended “global warming” and started the planet on the road to recovery on the day he gave his nomination speech. Remember how the day would be remembered for receding ocean levels and the start of our planet healing?
I don’t know if this was before or after his stroll on Lake Michigan.
Certainly anyone who can command the oceans to level he cure an economic crisis.
Have you heard the Russians are down in Venezuela? I suspect the Kremlin is giving our fearless leader the finger.
Joanne 9:48PM
He may well have to hurry and swear in Voelker while the guy is still breathing.
We’re very impressed, don’t worry.
Hal,
With what??
“Absolutely! If you just talk nice to people, they’ll listen to reason. I’ve always argued that if black people had just sat down and reasoned with the klan there would never have been any lynchings.
The Jews in Nazi Germany as well. Why didn’t they try to better understand why the Nazis hated them?”
Mary, please tell me you’re being sarcastic?
Josephine,
I most certainly am. I’m ridiculing the notion that one need only “reason” with hateful fanatics and they will see the light.
I wonder how much confidence he is inspiring in his followers now? I mean now he is going back to the Carter administration?
Posted by: Joanne at November 26, 2008 9:48 PM
We’re very impressed, don’t worry.
Posted by: hal at November 26, 2008 10:02 PM
Oh Mary,
Thank goodness! I know you’re not dumb, so I’m sorry I had to actually question that! I just wasn’t sure. :)
A local radio show host played audio today of a woman calling up her creditors and telling them that she’ll be able to pay off the debt because though she’s poor now, she’s going to be rich soon, thanks to Obama.
I wonder what she’s gonna do when she finds out that Obama isn’t going to give her free money for sitting on her butt watching soaps?
I wonder what she’s gonna do when she finds out that Obama isn’t going to give her free money for sitting on her butt watching soaps?
Posted by: John Lewandowski at November 26, 2008 10:21 PM
same thing you’re gonna to do.
Hal, she’s going to protest against Obama? Sweet.
Well. The poll. I thought the poll was flattering. It gave them more credit for informed voting than they deserve. A relative worked at the polls in a poor neighborhood. Huge numbers of ballots only voed for obama and a school bond tax issue. They left every thing else blank. It was a single issue election.
Of course they do not read newspapers. The papers are going broke. Just watch Oprah. They will be shocked when the checks don’t come. It looks like the bailout of the liberals beat them to the money.
Well. The poll. I thought the poll was flattering. It gave them more credit for informed voting than they deserve. A relative worked at the polls in a poor neighborhood. Huge numbers of ballots only voed for obama and a school bond tax issue. They left every thing else blank. It was a single issue election.
Of course they do not read newspapers. The papers are going broke. Just watch Oprah. They will be shocked when the checks don’t come. It looks like the bailout of the liberals beat them to the money.
xppc, a letter to the editor in my local paper told a story about an Obama campaign worker on election day.
An old woman called up Obama HQ and asked to be taken to vote. So the Obama worker picked up the old woman and took her to vote; only problem was that she wasn’t registered. So, she couldn’t vote in this past election, but she was able to register for the next one.
The poll workers asked her if she wanted to be registered Democrat or Republican. She said she didn’t know; then she said that she wanted to be whatever “that guy” was. Yeah, that’s right, “that guy”.
The Obama worker asked, “Obama?”
The old woman said, yes, I want to be whatever “that guy” is.
The Obama worker proudly recounted this story in her letter, telling us how proud she was that this old woman was so “inspired” by Obama. Uh… don’t you mean she was inspired by “that guy”?
“Mary, I’m a proud Pittsburgher”
John,
Pats vs. Steelers this Sunday. Big Pats fan here.
Mary: your insults belie what I am sure is your genuine Christian faith. Please find a more positive way of expressing yourself towards me in the future. That having been said the misleading extent of the polling was quoted in the website that I cited.
from fivethirtyeight.com:
To my mind, this survey meets the definition of a “push poll”, which the Random House Dictionary defines as “a seemingly unbiased telephone survey that is actually conducted by supporters of a particular candidate and disseminates negative information about an opponent.” That (i) several of the items on the survey contain information which, in addition to being negative, is arguably also untrue; (ii) Ziegler brags that the survey includes a trick question to which no correct answer can be provided, and that (iii) apparently only Obama voters were targeted by the survey (although this is not 100 percent clear), also inform my opinion that the survey can fairly be described as a “push poll”.”
Jasper, I’ll be watching and hoping for black and gold victory. The Pats are like the evil empire here.
He may well have to hurry and swear in Voelker while the guy is still breathing.
Posted by: Mary at November 26, 2008 10:02 PM
Yeah I thought he looked rather old and haggard. But then he is 81.
“Change” indeed!
Mary,
I sure don’t know. The article says “‘Help is on the way,’ he proclaimed at his third news briefing on the economy this week. Fifty-five days away from taking office, he declared he would have an economic plan ready for action “starting day one.” Of course any hint of that economic plan was not included.
It seems he’s only able to hold press conferences. I think this was his third or fourth this week.
Yo says:
“apparently only Obama voters were targeted by the survey (although this is not 100 percent clear)”
Wasn’t Jill just reporting that they wanted to poll McCain supporters but Zogby wouldn’t?
PLUS it’s funny that you’re complaining about the questions the people ACTUALLY GOT RIGHT! Who controls the Congress is a pretty straight forward question, yet they missed it again and again. The questions you take issue with, like the “trick” question, the people got “right.” Come on, give us a break, would ya?
We’re very impressed, don’t worry.
Posted by: hal at November 26, 2008 10:02 PM
Impressed that first he has raided the old Clinton appointees and now after Carter’s?
Who was Democratic President before Carter? Oh yes…… Johnson…… is anyone still alive from that adminstration O can pick?
You’ve had too much kool aid Hal!
Oh yes and Hal…. we all know how successful a Presidency Carter had….. maybe O should find a few more from that administration.
Bring on more of the “change” and “fresh faces” O promised!
Enough with the kool-aid, sheesh.
Anyway, Obama had an interview on CNN radio on Sirius today… talking about how the reason he is picking these people from former administrations is because now isn’t the time to pick someone with no experience. I think that’s a pretty valid reason, and I’m pretty comfortable with it.
now isn’t the time to pick someone with no experience.
Posted by: Josephine at November 26, 2008 11:27 PM
Too bad the voters didnt come to that same conclusion about NObama! The most unqualified President ever, almost as inexperienced as Jimmy Carter.
I lived in Illinois through Obama’s entire political career. I don’t find him inexperienced at all. :)
I like that statement – The Media failed to inform voters – WHEN is it the MEDIA’S job to inform voters – it IS the job of VOTERS to find it out for themselves.
Push – Polls – now that’s a good one. How is it anything but an honest question to ask – “who is Harry Reid?” – If you can’t answer that – you’re either nervous or an idiot – I figure it’s the latter.
People are SO busy living that they don’t bother being informed – they go with bumper stickers and slogans rather than – in this age of the internet – really investigating things.
Folks IF you’re going to rely on the media to make up your mind – we’ll NEVER have anyone intelligent or CONSERVATIVE in the White house or congress – so just GET USED TO IT …
I lived in Illinois through Obama’s entire political career. I don’t find him inexperienced at all. :)
Posted by: Josephine at November 26, 2008 11:39 PM
Of course not. Ruthless is more like it.
I don’t agree that the poll was a push poll –
First, it took place after people had voted, which basically defeats the purpose of what a push poll tries to do – which is to influence the voter prior to voting.
By definition, a push poll is a campaign technique in which an organization or person attempts to influence or alter the view of respondents under the guise of conducting a poll. In a push poll, large numbers of respondents are contacted, and little or no effort is made to collect and analyze response data.
Zogby polled just over 500 voters and collected and analyzed the data they collected pretty thoroughly.
Push polls tend to be negative attacks on other candidates. Zogby’s poll asked simple questions about things like, “Which party has control of congress” and “Do you know who Nancy Pelosi is”… The poll was supposed to be testing the knowledge of the voters about their government and the person they voted for (past tense).
Push polls usually are in the form of an attack and these attacks often attempt to disseminate “information” that has little or no basis in fact. Zogby’s poll did not do that, but asked factual questions about the government and the candidates. Although the poll did have one “trick question”, so-to-speak, where the actual person who said the quote wasn’t mentioned at all. However, if the voters had actually educated themselves on the issues or listened to the Sarah Palin interviews at all (one of which was heavily edited), they would have known Palin did not say “You can see Russia from my house!”
One clue to the difference between push polling and real polls is the sample size. Genuine polls normally collect small, representative samples, whereas push polls can be very large and more like mass marketing. Zogby’s poll was a relatively small sample of Obama supporters and his methods are consistent with genuine polling techniques.
Do people ever do any research or fact checking before they publish columns anymore?
I looked at the poll, and “who is Harry Reid” and “who is Nancy Pelosi” weren’t even on the list of questions.
Also, although Zogby’s organization conducted the poll, Zogby himself never signed off on it, and has said since then that the poll doesn’t represent Zogby’s finest hour. Zogby has also refused to re-conduct the poll unless he gets some input into the wording of the questions.
Kristen, I disagree. Most of Illinois is with me on that, because we kept him and then voted him for President. Maybe he is ruthless, but… uhm, he’s a politician. That’s nothing new..
Jane, did you watch the video at HowObamaGotElected.com? It shows Obama supporters being asked who Harry Reid and Nancy Pelosi are and they don’t know. Stop blaming the messenger for the ignorance and stupidity of Obama supporters.
YLT,
Please directly quote me insulting you.
Josephine 10:19PM
Not a problem at all. It means I got my point across about the absurdity of “reasoning” with hateful fanatics.
xppc 10:43PM
Good point about the newspapers and Oprah. Oprah became orgasmic on her show over Obama’s victory. Gag me.
YLT 11:00PM
This wasn’t a telephone survey but a face to face one. What questions were negative, “trick” and untruthful?
John 6:29am
Exactly. The questions were straightforward and Reid and Pelosi were definitely included.
However you look at it Obama voters did not come off as, shall we say, very well informed.
So we have change. Change and go backwards. Volker has great insight on the 70’s. This is not the 70’s. When Obama distances hisself from Ayers that did deeds when he was 8 years old. Now he couples with tallent that was influentional 8 years before he was morn.
How phony. I guess what happened long before and during the Ayers era does inded connect with the ONE/UNO
Did anyone else find the chanting at the beginning and end of the video disturbing?
In the o’bama (pbuh) administration, the military bands will no longer play ‘Hail to the Chief’.
The new song will be ‘Hail, hail, the gangs all here.’, as in the clinton gang.
Or as an equally appropriate alternative, the band could play ‘Auld Lang Syne’.
“Auld Lang Syne” is a Scottish poem written by Robert Burns in 1788 and set to the tune of a traditional folk song (Roud # 6294). It is well-known in many English-speaking countries, and it is often sung to celebrate the start of the new year at the stroke of midnight on New Year’s Day.
In his retelling of fairy tales in the Scots language, Matthew Fitt uses the phrase “In the days of auld lang syne” as the equivalent of “Once upon a time.”
How appropriate, with the sounds of ‘Camelot’ in the air once agin.
CHANGE,…..you CAN……believe in the o’bama (pbuh)
yor bro ken
Now if the o’bama (pbuh)can just get Warren Christopher off/on life support, he can appoint him Mortician General.
yor bro ken
But Carter, at least, was pro life.
Posted by: Joanne at November 26, 2008 7:19 PM
—————————————————
I don’t know if the First Woman, ‘Ros’ ever gave Jimmy permission to make that choice.
yor bro ken
The real flaw in the methodology is that the poll was not conducted in Spanish as well as English.
yor bro ken
Carter was NOT pro-life. He just was not as militant an abortionist as either Clinton or Obama. Plus he never had any Supreme Court appointments. Thank God.
John,
The video is not the same thing as the poll. The video is just a handful of people interviewed gotcha-style, like the Jay Leno All-Stars thing.
The actual Zogby poll is different, and does not refer to either Reid or Pelosi.
Also…the video gotchas were not conducted by Zogby.
Mary @ 8:14 AM, yes, I found it disturbing also. And nauseating :l The video only confirmed what I had already suspected — that many people do not inform themselves — they listen to sound bites and to anyone whom they think will make life materially easier for them. That people did not put the basic right to life of the unborn, the most helpless among us, first, is a sad commentary on our current culture.
People in both parties vote on “intangibles.” People liked GWB because they thought they’d rather have a beer with him than Gore. It’s a crazy way to pick a president, but what are you going to do?
Many of us voted for Obama for real and serious reasons.
The Pittsburgh Steelers are a team known for cheating and dirty play.
And roughly half of the players are supposed to be in prison.
I am still shocked at how accurately and truthfully the Hopenchange voters express their ignorance. Do they have any other source of info besides Saturday Night Live?
I see Barry Hopenchange won’t send his kiddos to a school with union teachers and classes that preach transgenderism for dummies.
Sidwell is for the elite.
LOL – xppc, how many of those sour grapes you going to eat?
Obama supporters may be idiots, but Obama opposers are … LOSERS!
http://tinyurl.com/64xc5c
Crazed shoppers bust down door of Wal-Mart, trample worker to death.
Does the employemen of old timers from the clinon era recruied ou of nursing homes mean Obama is going to do away wih ss benefits?
Doug,
Unbelievable.
That poor man. Also read that people were upset that the store closed!! Um…someone died in your shopping stampede, people.
“Most of us voted for Obama for real and serious reasons.” If what is meant by “most” is that at least 50% plus 1 voted for Obama for “real and serious reasons” that is a good thing. There were real differences between the candidates that serious people could disagree on. However, on the other hand Zogby uncovered some troubling anecdotal evidence that a lot of people did not have a clue as to basic facts about the candidates.
We have the next couple of years to sort it all out before we go back at it in the mid-terms. And if Obama governs from the extreme left he will certainly be vulnerable in 2012. Already his choice of “choice” advocates such as the “Emily’s List” president and Tommy Daschle for key posts augurs poorly for the right to life of the unborn. We will see how he does on judicial appointments.
Doug: Re the Wal-Mart tragedy. Carrying over from a previous thread there are those who would claim that if some of those crazed shoppers were aborted the man would still be alive today. This is precisely the type of thing that makes Morgentaler’s argument (abortions=reduced crime) so absurd.
Unbelievable. That poor man (the guy that got trampled). Also read that people were upset that the store closed!! Um…someone died in your shopping stampede, people.
Carla, that’s indeed a sad story. I never thought about getting trampled, but you won’t see me going out there to shop. Not my kind of deal at all. Didn’t leave the house yesterday, in fact.
Jerry: Re the Wal-Mart tragedy. Carrying over from a previous thread there are those who would claim that if some of those crazed shoppers were aborted the man would still be alive today. This is precisely the type of thing that makes Morgentaler’s argument (abortions=reduced crime) so absurd.
Jerry, on Obama, I think he’ll be a one-term President, due to the economy, and the same for McCain had he won. Hoover got blamed for a good bit of the Depression in the 1930’s just be similarly being in the wrong place at the time.
Hey – you could make an argument like you stated, but it really does not matter. Had there been no legal abortion since 1973, the same stuff would be going on at the stores. Or, had there been twice as many abortions the same would still be true.
However, that does not mean that Morgentaler is incorrect. It’s silly to presume that among all the people that would have resulted from no abortions by him there would be zero criminals. Therefore, whether you are for abortion being a legal choice or not, he has indeed reduced the number of criminals in Canada.
XPPC: Does the employemen of old timers from the clinon era recruied ou of nursing homes mean Obama is going to do away wih ss benefits?
Guess what?
“Unbelievable. That poor man (the guy that got trampled). Also read that people were upset that the store closed!! Um…someone died in your shopping stampede, people.”
Carla, that’s indeed a sad story. I never thought about getting trampled, but you won’t see me going out there to shop. Not my kind of deal at all. Didn’t leave the house yesterday, in fact.
Posted by: Doug at November 29, 2008 12:33 PM
To make an analogy, what’s wrong with trampling a person if you get the big screen TV you want. It’s all about what makes us happy.
Many of us voted for Obama for real and serious reasons.
Posted by: hal at November 27, 2008 3:07 PM
Surely hal will be heartened to know that Obama hasn’t been to church in quite a while. I know at some point hal expressed that Obama was a “devout” Christian. lol
Hippie,
If you watched CNN, you know he spent this week looking for a church in DC. :)
Oh, and “If what is meant by “most” is that at least 50% plus 1 voted for Obama for “real and serious reasons'” Well, do you mean plus 1+ million? The majority? Isn’t that what MOST is, all the time? In high school, I literally won homecoming queen by like, five votes. Trust me, it doesn’t make winning less awesome.
Hippie, 3:23PM
Obama claimed his blissful ignorance as to what his minister preached and believed, even though he sat in the pews for 20 years. He also threw his minister under the bus when it became politically expedient and the congregation was non too pleased with him.
Now he’s looking for a new church?
He’s looking for a new church because he will be living in DC. Would YOU go back to Illinois every Sunday to go to church, Mary?
By the way, you should look up the minister’s public apology.
And, btw, I’ve seen a LOT of people on here saying worse things or, almost the exact same things, as Rev. Wright! I just realized that!
Things like.. us voting for Obama is going to bring on the rapture!
Josephine,
I realize that. Obama claimed he sat in the Illinois church for 20 years but was clueless as to what his minister said or believed. When it was politically expedient Obama tossed his minister under the bus. So much for the man Obama referred to as his mentor, and who married Obama and his wife and baptized his children.
It seems the congregation and its minister were dispensible when necessary and I recall reading the congregation was less than happy with this display of disloyalty to both the congregation and the minister.
Even a black minister who was a supporter of Hillary stated how he would consider it an insult if a member of his church claimed he was clueless as to what he(minister) had been preaching.
I could care less about Wright’s apology and I don’t buy it anyway. My issue is with how quickly Obama can dispense with those who are not politically expedient, even a church he attended for 20 years.
To make an analogy, what’s wrong with trampling a person if you get the big screen TV you want. It’s all about what makes us happy.
Janet, I don’t see that the person wanting to break down the door has a greater claim to that “happiness” than the guy doing his job inside the store – the guy’s rights take precedence, there, bigtime, and you don’t see people saying different.
Mary, the Rev. apologized because he DID change for the public eye. He became MUCH more extreme than when he was in his own church.
And, the worst part of everyone complaining about Rev. Wright, is that half of them still call Obama a Muslim!
Doug: The difference between Morgentaler and another infamous person is only one of degree. Both believed that what they were doing was eliminating a source of criminality in society. Both have/had emmense egos. Both are (were) comfortable in playing God–who gets to live, who dies. Both dehumanized their victims as threats to the commonweal so as to have a justification for their actions.
There is also a bit of self fulfilling prophecy at play here as well. If we view the unborn child as a problem, as a threat, as an unwanted, as a usurper upon my happiness, as a parasite, and so on then it becomes one. If, on the other hand we welcome the unborn child with open hearts and optimism and hope and with thankfulness, the child does not represent a threat but rather a promise. So what our friend Morgentaler suggests is this: our attitudes and perceptions become the justification for another person’s ultimate acceptance or demise.
Furthermore, if Morgentaler’s assertion is based upon a statistical presumption, what about the 98% or so that do not end up as convicts? Is he saying that it is justifiable that the “good” 98 shall die so that we get the “bad” two? If you ask me, Morgentaler is a sick man.
Josephine,
Again, I don’t buy it. The good rev. may well have said that to benefit Obama and back up Obama’s claim of ignorance. Was Wright’s issuing an award to racist/antisemite Louis Farrakhan also a performance? Was Obama ignorant of this as well? However you are certainly free to believe what you want.
I have no clue if Obama was ever a Muslim or not.
Surely hal will be heartened to know that Obama hasn’t been to church in quite a while. I know at some point hal expressed that Obama was a “devout” Christian. lol
Posted by: hippie at November 29, 2008 3:23 PM
I would be very happy if Obama would shed his religion, but he does appear to be devout to me. As I stated before, it’s his only flaw….
I would be very happy if Obama would shed his religion, but he does appear to be devout to me. As I stated before, it’s his only flaw….
Posted by: hal at November 30, 2008 10:59 PM
You are one of the most religious on this board hal. It just isn’t Christianity.
Christianity places God above man. Secular humanism and many other false religions elevate man. In your case above the gods. Your deal follows the gods of hedonism.
peeples is stoopid.
Jerry Doug, the difference between Morgentaler and another infamous person is only one of degree. Both believed that what they were doing was eliminating a source of criminality in society. Both have/had emmense egos. Both are (were) comfortable in playing God–who gets to live, who dies. Both dehumanized their victims as threats to the commonweal so as to have a justification for their actions.
Jerry, to some extent I agree – maybe Morgentaler does have a huge ego. I don’t think the “playing God” is applicable, and I don’t share all your beliefs, but I do see what you mean. I also don’t think the “dehumanized” applies either – he’s not saying the unborn are “not human,” not at all, far as I know. Seems to me you’re viewing it as taking something away from the unborn, but in reality we’re just not attributing rights to them in the first place.
…..
There is also a bit of self fulfilling prophecy at play here as well. If we view the unborn child as a problem, as a threat, as an unwanted, as a usurper upon my happiness, as a parasite, and so on then it becomes one. If, on the other hand we welcome the unborn child with open hearts and optimism and hope and with thankfulness, the child does not represent a threat but rather a promise. So what our friend Morgentaler suggests is this: our attitudes and perceptions become the justification for another person’s ultimate acceptance or demise.
I appreciate how you’ve stuck with this. You’re talking in very general terms there, while for one given woman it can be all sorts of ways. “Parasite” is a buzzword that I think some Pro-Choicers use just to push Pro-Lifer’s buttons.
Again – as far as I know, Morgentaler goes with what the individual woman wants. He’s not saying that all babies are so-and-so, and neither are Pro-Choicers in general.
….
Furthermore, if Morgentaler’s assertion is based upon a statistical presumption, what about the 98% or so that do not end up as convicts? Is he saying that it is justifiable that the “good” 98 shall die so that we get the “bad” two? If you ask me, Morgentaler is a sick man.
Well, I first heard it at least second-hand from Patricia, so I don’t know the context in which it was said.
I don’t know if “justification” had anything to do with it at all. I doubt he thinks any is needed beyond what the woman herself says.
peeples is stoopid.
Posted by: hippie at December 1, 2008 4:55 PM
Uhm, good argument?
Doug: The word “parasite” is not mine, nor is it a “button pusher.” Hard core pro-aborts use the word without apology.
One other thing: The very fact that “rights are not attributed to them” (unborn children) is dehumanizing.
Jerry, no – you are confusing genetic status with the status that we attribute.