Avg Brit has slept with 2.8 million people. How about you? Take the test.
Teen abstinence programs always spotlight this point, and rightfully so. Something to think about. From Breitbart, September 23:
The average British man or woman has slept with 2.8 million people – albeit indirectly, according to figures released on Wednesday to promote awareness of sexual health.
A British pharmacy chain has launched an online calculator which helps you work out how many partners you have had, in the sense of exposure to risk of sexually transmitted diseases.
The “Sex Degrees of Separation” ready reckoner tots up the numbers based on your number of partners, then their previous partners, and their former lovers, and so on for 6 “generations” of partners.
The average British man claims to have actually slept with 9 people, while women put the figure at 6.3, giving an average of 7.65.
“When we sleep with someone, we are, in effect, not only sleeping with them, but also their previous partners and their partners’ previous partners, and so on,” said Clare Kerr, head of sexual health at Lloydspharmacy.
“It’s important that people understand how exposed they are to STIs and take appropriate precautions including using condoms and getting themselves checked out where appropriate.”
The test is interesting…
[HT: Kelli; photo via Breitbart]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I agree with Pam Stenzel (and I quote her often.)
I can do all the “right” things (eg use a condom, ask about previous partners etc) and still get pregnant, catch an STI or two and have my heart broken after having sex one time with the wrong person,
OR
I can have sex with my husband a million times and be totally safe every time- because we’re married, neither of us has ever had sex with anyone besides each other, and if another child was to be created, we are in the emotional and spiritual condition to be able to welcome that child with joy.
“Safe sex” is not about what you do when you’re having sex, it’s about who you have sex with.
Abstinence!! It could literally save your life!
“The average British man or woman has slept with 2.8 million people…”
Good grief. When do they find time to blog?
Hmmm… I think the test makes that assumption that everyone is sexually immoral.
I took the test and entered 1 sexual partner (my wife). The results…
“You have had 332,781 indirect and direct sexual partners.”
I think it’s assuming that my wife is a floozy.
The test is worthless scare tactic. Nothing immoral about having sex with several people over your lifespan.
It must think my husband is a real dog. I entered my 1 and only partner, my hubby, and it told me “You have had 2,111,927 indirect and direct sexual partners.”
Yeah, I think this test is assuming that everyone you’ve slept with has slept with 6 partners before you.
Well, this certainly is propaganda trash. :D
“The test is worthless scare tactic. Nothing immoral about having sex with several people over your lifespan.”
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 10:48 AM
I bet you can’t wait for the day you hear that coming from your daughters’ mouths… What joy it will bring.
People shouldn’t act as though just because someone doesn’t think there’s anything wrong with having more than one sexual partner over one’s entire lifespan in the search for the one they will finally be exclusive to, they’re going around giving it away for free and sleeping with everyone who will entertain the idea. This is ridiculous.
If my daughter was being careful, mindful of the fact that the biological purpose of sex is procreation, and emotionally stable in a committed relationship and old enough to be so, I’d definitely want her coming to me for advice and guidance about such matters. I certainly wouldn’t chastise her for wanting to know EVERYTHING about her prospective lifelong mate, including whether or not he (or she? :/) will have the capacity to bring her physical fulfillment. The joy of a functional and fulfilling sexual relationship is not something I think only I am entitled to, and I would hope my daughter will be able to find such a thing in a loving and fully functional relationship, even if it takes searching past the first person she happens to start such proceedings with. I didn’t settle with the first thing I was given, and I’m glad I didn’t. I wouldn’t fault her for doing the same.
Yeah, this thing is funny – it wants to know how old a person was the last time the two of you had sex, but it doesn’t ask if they were a virgin or if they had only had sex with one other person or anything like that. So EVERYBODY who ever had sex has like ten billion indirect sexual partners.
Well, you also have to take into account how many sexual partners your parents had, because I guess they could’ve passed something on to you…or something…everyone’s in trouble.
xalisae,
The point of this “test” is to emphasize the health consequences of sex. (That was the basis of my comment to Hal.) I know how you feel about pre-marital sex and respect your right to have that opinion. The truth is, there are people who sleep with anyone they can. You could say they ruin it for those of you who are more “discriminating”.
Personally,
I don’t think the “sexual compatibility” issue is a big deal. We spend the majority of the time in our lives in non-sexual activity than sexual activity. If you tell your children they may not be compatible with their first sexual partner, will they always think the NEXT will be BETTER? Perhaps this mentality seeps into the divorce culture as well. Just my two cents.
Well, you also have to take into account how many sexual partners your parents had, because I guess they could’ve passed something on to you…or something…everyone’s in trouble.
Posted by: xalisae at September 25, 2009 1:08 PM
That’s exactly the point. What we are taught and what we teach our children makes a real difference.
This just in yesterday and still developing:
Dallas skyscraper bomb plot suspect says he understands charges
———————————————————-
01:02 PM CDT on Friday, September 25, 2009
By JASON TRAHAN, TODD J. GILLMAN and SCOTT GOLDSTEIN / The Dallas Morning News
A 19-year-old Jordanian citizen accused of trying to blow up a downtown Dallas skyscraper told a federal magistrate this morning at his first court appearance that he understands the charges against him.
Hosam Maher Husein Smadi…was arrested Thursday after he parked a vehicle laden with government-supplied fake explosives in the underground parking garage of Fountain Place, a 60-story tower at Ross Avenue at Field Street, authorities said.
Smadi, a Jordanian citizen illegally living in the U.S. in the small town of Italy, about 45 miles south of Dallas, pledged allegiance to Osama bin Laden and expressed a desire to kill Americans, authorities said.
In conversations with agents posing as members of an al-Qaeda sleeper cell, Smadi said he came to the U.S. to wage jihad, or holy war. He told agents he wanted to target military recruitment centers, but eventually settled on financial institutions.
“I want to destroy … targets … everything that helps America on its war on Arabs will be targeted,” he told undercover agents in May.
—————————————————–
B.O. needs re-tool his message. The Jew hating mass murderers and serial killers are not beating their swords into plows just yet.
yor bro ken
What if the pharmacy sponsoring this test is using our email addresses for marketing purposes. The possibilities are endless…
I bet you can’t wait for the day you hear that coming from your daughters’ mouths… What joy it will bring.
Posted by: Janet at September 25, 2009 12:13 PM
I would encourage my daughter to have sex with more than one person in her lifetime. Absolutely. As xalisae states, that’s not the same thing at all as saying I would approve of reckless sexual encounters.
Sounds like a “test” designed to help push a Gardosil mandate in England.
After all, several years ago a study was published that found that not have “intimate relations” until after the age of 18 virtually eliminated the risk of Cervical cancer due to HPV. My guess is that it is more effective than the STD vaccine being pushed on school age children in the US.
Abstinence works. And it doesn’t cost a dime in drug money.
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 10:48 AM
“Nothing immoral about having sex with several people over your lifespan.”
—————————————————
immoral- not moral; broadly : conflicting with generally or traditionally held moral principles.
several- more than one b : more than two but fewer than many c chiefly dialect : being a great many
HAL,
Who’s dictionary are you relying upon?
The progressive liberal humanist hedonist dictionary to guilt free living?
If we are going to have a ‘meaningful’ conversation then we are going to have to agree upon a standard by which to measure words.
What was it B.O. accused George Stephanopoulos of doing when he resorted to a dictionary to measure B.O.’s words. Oh yeah. B.O. said George was ‘stretching’.
As a lawyer how could you ever write a meaningful contract if there were no objective standard to determine the meaning of words.
Words do mean things.
yor bro ken
Ken,
From Wikipedia:
Morality (from the Latin moralitas “manner, character, proper behavior”) has three principal meanings.
In its first, descriptive usage, morality means a code of conduct or belief which is held to be authoritative in matters of right and wrong. Morals are arbitrarily created and subjectively defined by society, philosophy, religion, and/or individual conscience. An example of the descriptive usage could be “common conceptions of morality have changed significantly over time.” The arbitrariness of morality stems from the observation that actions that may be deemed moral in one culture in time may not be classified as such in others or in a different time.
Mortal Sin, Hell and the 6th Commandment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egAMGjpID2E&feature=channel
Mortal Sin, Hell and the 6th Commandment
Posted by: joan at September 25, 2009 1:48 PM
Blah.
For Ken:
In English, blah is a word that is sometimes used to express words or feelings where the specifics are not considered important to the speaker or writer for emotions. It is not often seen in formal writing, except when transcribing speech. It differs from a speech disfluency such as “um” or “er” in that blah is a word used deliberately to represent other words, rather than as an accidental or temporary interjection into speech. Blah is also used when the speaker cannot say what was intended. It also is used for disagreeing, almost like the word “balderdash”. “Blah” is also mimed behind people’s backs to suggest that they talk too much or that they talk about useless topics for no reason (an example of this would be like saying, “Blah blah blah, he just goes on and on”). The word “Blah” can also be used in a mocking or sarcastic tone. “Blah” is used in some circumstances as a sign of impatience and arrogance towards another.
Americans actually have a higher average than the British(14 partners).
I would encourage my daughter to have sex with more than one person in her lifetime. Absolutely. As xalisae states, that’s not the same thing at all as saying I would approve of reckless sexual encounters.
Hal,encouraging your daughter to have sex with more than one person is just asking for her to get an STD. Especially with the rates of STDs as high as they are today. I don’t understand why you would ever want to risk that kind of thing by encouraging that behavior?
I think a healthy sex life is a very important part of human existence. I think it’s generally better to put off marriage until at least the mid-20s. I don’t think it’s a good idea to wait until the mid-20s to have sex. A few serious relationships in college years and after seems perfectly appropriate to me.
Sure there is a risk of STDs. There is a risk in lots of things we do for fun or necessity. Swimming, scuba, driving, flying, camping, etc etc. For most people, the advantages of sex outweigh the risks.
Yep Hal:
Don’t forget to tell your daughter that she can have an abortion, of course with your blessing, if she gets pregnant.
That will make you not only guilty of aborting, by your own admission, your first two kids, but also those of your children.
Does anyone out there besides me think this is evil and incredibly unmanly?
Hal I see parents with that attitude a lot (oh just let them have sex- no harm in that!), at the CPC.
Their teenaged children have STD’s and they don’t seem to understand how it happened. (As if the depo shot is going to prevent an STD? Or the birth control pill??) I don’t understand that apathy – this is their CHILD. Sex might be pleasurable for a moment, but is it REALLY worth getting STD’s and living with that your entire life?
It hurts me to think that a parent could have so little concern over the health of their child. Teenaged girls shouldn’t be having to deal with STD’s that are most of the time going to be with them for the rest of their lives, yet it happens All. The. Time. And the parents are to blame when they are so very permissive. ENCOURAGING your child to have sex with more than one person is like telling your child to play Russian roulette with her body. Changes are, she’s going to get hurt.
Of course she can have an abortion if she gets pregnant and doesn’t want to have a child. I don’t think I’ll have to tell her that, it’s generally known by women in this country that abortion is available.
Nothing “unmanly” about it.
Hal, the risk of catching an STD is FAR higher than the incidence of getting hurt while swimming, camping, etc. Would you encourage your child to become friends with a known pedophile, because “there are risks everywhere anyway!”?
No, some things have greater risks than others, and encouraging- ENCOURAGING- your child to have sex with more than one person, is putting your child at an extreme risk for her health.
Well, I haven’t actually *told* her to have sex with more than one person in her life. She’s 18 and will make her own decisions. I do think “extreme risk for her health” is a bit over the top. Sure, there are some risks, but like I said, probably worth it.
Hal, you said you would *encourage* it. Why not encourage her to find someone who she truly loves, who loves her back?
Hal, how is saying it is an extreme risk over the top when one out of TWO teenagers gets an STD?
you said “extreme” risk.
Syphilis 2.1 cases per 100,000 people
Gonorrhea 118 cases per 100,000 people
Chlamydia 370 per 100,000 people.
A study presented in 2008 revealed that around 26% of young American women aged 14-19 are infected with at least one of the four most common sexually transmitted infections. This amounts to around 3.2 million female teenagers. The most widespread infection is HPV (human papilloma virus, which can cause genital warts and cervical cancer), found in 18% of young women. In second place is chlamydia, with a 4% infection rate. The study found that African American teenagers are most severely affected; around 48% of young African American women have an STD, compared to 20% of young white women.
Hal, you named a few STD’s. There are many more than that, and combined, there is a 1 in 2 rate of getting an STD as a teenager in America.
Is it really worth it to have a few moments of pleasure only to end up with genital herpes for the rest of your life, Hal? I would absolutely hate to get something like that. You never can get rid of it. Not to mention other STD’s can end up in cancer which can end your life prematurely. And teens are more likely to develop those growths that can turn into cancer.
I just don’t understand how you can say it is “worth it”. Worth it for whom? I would never think an STD of ANY kind was worth it, especially not for my daughter. I want better for her.
I also want her to have a person who loves her. Not someone who uses her for sex and leaves her for another “good time” somewhere else. And I certainly wouldnt want my daughter to hurt someone else and leave them or someone “more compatible”.
It’s just inconceivable to me, this mindset that seems to imply that sex is all there is to life. There is SO MUCH MORE to life. And there is so much more to SEX!
Why not encourage her to find someone who she truly loves, who loves her back?
many people live happy lives with herpes. It’s not a death sentence.
“worth it” means it’s better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all. Life is short, live a little.
Hal, define “love”.
Hal, define “love”.
Posted by: Bethany at September 25, 2009 3:23 PM
That’s for the poets, not someone like me.
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 1:45 PM
From Wikipedia: Morality
————————————————–
HAL,
So you are using the “progressive liberal humanist hedonist dictionary to guilt free living”.
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 1:56 PM
For Ken:
“Blah.”
—————————————————-
That word must be from B.O. anotated lexicon of relatavistic rhetoric.
HAL,
When you sailing and you get beyond the sight of land what do you use for a reliable standard to get back to port. Surely you don’t just follow another ship and hope they’re going where you want to go or do you call the coast guard. Either way, what universally agreed upon standard to they use to get where they want to go.
You are not really a ‘relativist’, you are just being disingenuine.
But you do have ‘taste’.
yor bro ken
Do you tell your girls to smoke, strip and drink and drive as well?? Maybe they could try prostitution, cause hey, we only live once!!
Sex, drugs and rock-n-roll, kiddoes!!!
They will harbor deep resentment for your lack of leadership and for not protecting them. A father protects his daughter, guards her, cherishes her and most important of all…cleans his gun on the porch when the boys come sniffing around.
I pity the poor fools who want to date our only daughter.
A hearty AMEN to your post, Carla!
I certainly cherish my daughters, and protect them as well. But I don’t see sex as something adults need to be protected from. That’s just me, I guess.
Have a great weekend everyone.
Carla:
Why, you were describing me, this old dinosaur of a dad.
Is it really worth it to have a few moments of pleasure only to end up with genital herpes for the rest of your life, Hal? I would absolutely hate to get something like that.
Married people who were abstinent can get genital herpes too. I know we have talked about this before. The risk of contracting herpes increases as the number of sex partners increases, but it is absolutely possible for herpes to be transmitted from one virgin to another. Besides that, herpes is most certainly not a death sentence and if I wanted to marry a man who was likely to give me genital herpes at some point (because he had cold sores) I absolutely would.
Hal, define “love”.
Posted by: Bethany at September 25, 2009 3:23 PM
That’s for the poets, not someone like me.
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 3:28 PM
total cop out as usual.
You wouldn’t know love if it smacked you in the face! Poor man…..
Love is being a father even though you think you’re not ready and even though you think the time isn’t right. Love sacrifices.
My mother and father left me to my own devices, Hal. You know how well that worked out, right?? I resented their lack of care and concern for my well being. Emotional, physical, sexual and spiritual.
My children will aspire to education, college degrees, helping others less fortunate and saving themselves for marriage. Self control. A novel concept, I know. We have talked about God’s plan for their lives since they were little.
Hal, I don’t see sex as something adults need to be protected from, either. Careless behavior is something adults need to have already learned how to “protect themselves from” by not engaging in it. But I don’t think sex outside of marriage is inherently careless. Yes, sex can be careless. Most people I know who are sexually active are not careless, though.
The idea that there is either “self control” or “sex before marriage” is a false dichotomy. As though people who have sex before marriage don’t understand the “novel concept” of self-control. I don’t have sex with everyone who strikes my fancy — imagine that! I have self-control! I don’t steal — imagine that! I have self-control! Perhaps I just make different, though controlled and informed, decisions for my life? Could it be?
I was not left to my own devices. I was loved, and taught how to control myself, and how to make the right decisions. My sisters and I all aspired to education, helping others, living our lives well. I resent nothing my parents taught me or gave to me.
Married people who were abstinent can get genital herpes too. I know we have talked about this before. The risk of contracting herpes increases as the number of sex partners increases, but it is absolutely possible for herpes to be transmitted from one virgin to another. Besides that, herpes is most certainly not a death sentence and if I wanted to marry a man who was likely to give me genital herpes at some point (because he had cold sores) I absolutely would.
Alexandra, you’re talking about something completely different than what I was discussing with Hal. I am not debating whether you can in rare instances develop an STD without actually having sex.
I was debating Hal’s statement where he said he would “encourage his daughter” to have sex with more than one man. Is that good parental advice? I think not.
Hal: “I think a healthy sex life is a very important part of human existence.”
For some people, it seems to be. Then you have those of us who aren’t really wired for it and couldn’t give a [TOS] less about sex.
“I don’t think it’s a good idea to wait until the mid-20s to have sex.”
Really? How come? Why does one need to have sex so early in life?
Also, Alexandra, my question to hal was about a few moments of pleasure- not a lifetime of love.
My children will aspire to education, college degrees, helping others less fortunate and saving themselves for marriage. Self control. A novel concept, I know. We have talked about God’s plan for their lives since they were little.
Posted by: carla September 25, 2009 4:09 PM
Carla, mine too, except the “saving themselves” part. And the “God’s plan” part.
With all due respect, from what I remember you have said about your parents, there is a significant difference between what I mean about “letting them make their own decisions” and what your parents did and didn’t do. I have been a very active father.
Alexandra,
I was thinking more in terms of teenagers not adults. To tell children nothing or Good luck or Be Safe hardly addresses the very real need for boundaries. Sex can kill. Pretty simple.
I want the very best for my children. I will help them wait and learn self control in everything. Not just sex. They will thank me for sparing them what I went through.
Hal’s response to Bethany regarding his daughter having pre-marital sex was, I think a healthy sex life is a very important part of human existence.
By that he’s saying those who only have sex with their spouses are at a disadvantage and are falling short of a “healthy sex life.”
I think anyone referring to a ‘sex-life’ has a problem at the outset. Husbands and wives should be enjoying a married-life, with sex being just one of the many rights conferred upon spousal unions. By referring to a ‘sex-life,’ one is compartmentalizing the marital act into something separate from God, marriage, and the begetting of children.
By referring to a ‘sex-life,’ one is compartmentalizing the marital act into something separate from God, marriage, and the begetting of children.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at September 25, 2009 4:39 PM
That’s exactly what I mean to do. Perhaps we are beginning to understand each other
Hal,
Active but encouraging sex with many is hardly any different than disengaged and disinterested. The end result is the same. Sexual activity and risky behavior. Not going to argue with you anymore, man!! :P
I have a wisdom from my experience that goes beyond many of the people I know and my children will benefit from it.
I am so thankful and grateful that my husband and I get another chance to do things differently!! You have no idea the joy it brings me to BE THERE for my children!!
Happy Friday to you all!!
WHO HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT “LEAVING CHILDREN TO THEIR OWN DEVICES?!”
There HAS to be some sort of middle ground between what Hal says (although I think Hal is closer to it than the other side of this debate) and what the rest are saying.
Bethany…Who says Hal and I WOULDN’T be encouraging our daughters to find someone they love who loves them back? For MOST people, that also entails a sexual relationship. Is it wrong for me to want the same kind of very fulfilling physical relationship her father and I enjoy for my daughter and her future love WHEN SHE’S AN ADULT?! I’m sorry, but I’ve been with a guy in a relationship who wasn’t any good physically, and I have my husband who has no such problem, and the only reason I know good from bad is because I’ve had good and I’ve had bad. I do not want to deprive my daughter of such knowledge.
No, I would not encourage my daughter to have an abortion, ever, and as a matter of fact, I’d let her know just what I thought of such a concept even before she became sexually active (well before, as a matter of fact), that’s for sure, but I managed to remain without child for quite some time before her father and I found each other and decided we were “the one”s (even before I became pregnant with her…her dad just didn’t believe in marriage).
I’m done arguing also Carla. Please be open to the idea that although your experience was negative and probably too common, many other people have had wonderful sexual experiences when we were young adults that we don’t regret. (again, I’m not talking about sex with random people you meet at bars, but as part of long term healthy relationships)
Now, I really have to go.
Alexandra, you’re talking about something completely different than what I was discussing with Hal. I am not debating whether you can in rare instances develop an STD without actually having sex.
It’s not “without actually having sex.” Of course there is sex, to contract genital herpes. There can be genital herpes within the confines of chaste sex.
I find it interesting that you automatically equate pre-marital sex with “a few moments of pleasure.” That is, again, assuming that all pre-marital sex is careless, anonymous, etc. For these discussions to be worth having at all, both people need to be talking about the same thing. Hal specifically said that he sees no problem with adults at college age or beyond having a few serious relationships — no mention of careless, anonymous sex there. There are vast differences between informed and responsible adults engaging in certain behavior, and children with no sense of perspective — or uninformed, irresponsible adults — engaging in that same behavior. I don’t know how many times Hal, xalisae, and myself can possibly say that, and yet it goes ignored, and the “careless anonymous few moments of pleasure” meme is all that gets discussed.
I have to go as well — this is the longest I’ve spent online in weeks!
Alexandra, I honestly don’t think a relationship IS serious if it doesn’t last. People who love each other sacrifice for each other and don’t just leave when things get tough. The statement “a “few serious relationships” to me is an oxymoron.
Xalisae,
Bethany…Who says Hal and I WOULDN’T be encouraging our daughters to find someone they love who loves them back?
I wasn’t talking about you, Xalisae. Hal never responded to that question. He could have but he didn’t.
For MOST people, that also entails a sexual relationship. Is it wrong for me to want the same kind of very fulfilling physical relationship her father and I enjoy for my daughter and her future love WHEN SHE’S AN ADULT?!
You’re inferring things from what I said that I didn’t say, Xalisae.
I’m sorry, but I’ve been with a guy in a relationship who wasn’t any good physically, and I have my husband who has no such problem, and the only reason I know good from bad is because I’ve had good and I’ve had bad. I do not want to deprive my daughter of such knowledge.
I completely disagree with you on this point, Xalisae. But I’m not going to go into it any further because you are obviously angry.
You’re responding to all of my posts as though I had been speaking to you personally. I wasn’t. Calm down and then we can talk.
I guess I’ll be in the ‘dinosaur’ category with Phil (LOL). I ‘saved myself for marriage’, and I didn’t get married until I was 40. So did my husband, he was 42. We prefer to go by what GOD says is right and acceptable..not what ‘society’ says is. We have a beautiful, healthy child (hoping for another). I am a homemaker,so we don’t have alot of money, still…life is good. Thank You, God. :)
Pamela,
That is a wonderful and encouraging testimony.
I hope and pray that my children will be able to enjoy the same kind of experience and I hope and pray the same for their future spouses.
It sounds like you waited for just the right time and just the right person and in the fullness of time GOD set up the devine appointment.
‘Mazel tov’ to you and yours.
yor bro ken
more blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
“Avg Brit has slept with 2.8 million people. How about you?”
No, thank you. I believe I will leave that up to the professionals.
What’s the diffence between a whore and a prostitute?
The price.
(I use the terms ‘whore’ and ‘prostitute’ in a non-gender specific biblical sense.)
yor bro ken
“I’m sorry, but I’ve been with a guy in a relationship who wasn’t any good physically, and I have my husband who has no such problem, and the only reason I know good from bad is because I’ve had good and I’ve had bad.”
what do mean by bad? Is a man bad because he isn’t hung like John Holmes?
That’s not my criteria, Jasper, no. It’s not the size of the boat, it’s the motion in the ocean. Sheesh…you men and your fixation on size…If you spent half the time learning to use what you have instead of dreaming about what you don’t, you wouldn’t have these problems.
And Bethany, I’m sorry to attempt to construe something which apparently you didn’t mean, but this is how you came across. Although I don’t know why you would mean one thing for Hal and another for me…we’re actually both on the same page for once in our lives. Frightening.
Xalisae, while you were still in a relationship with your old boyfriend who you say was “bad” in bed, were you at that time aware of the idea that he was “bad”?
Bethany,
You are talking to people who have no point of reference and do not want one.
‘Two’ plus ‘two’ equals ‘four’.
These folks ‘believe’ that is unfair to five.
Two lemons plus two oranges equals four.
Two pecans plus two acorns equal four.
It does not matter who are what you are counting or who is doing the counting the math works.
It even works with fruits and nuts, but it does not work with fruits who are nuts and nuts who are fruits.
You cannot have a ‘reasonable’ conversation with an irrational person.
It like attempting to herd cats.
yor bro ken
Ken, you’re always full of wisdom and wit. lol about herding cats.
Sad but interesting article and posts here. I would quote a man I knew who said “a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”, so I don’t really expect to make any headway or difference or even sense to the agnostics and the “free love” crew. Every time man in his arrogant intelligence sees sex as a great way to see if I like or even love another person, a pleasurable release of sexual tension, a good idea to try someone out or take them for a test drive, let’s live and let live, I’m glad I found out what I like and don’t like with different sexual partners (even with “selective” sexual partners); it all comes down to devaluing, diminishing and degrading what is the most intimate, sacred, life-creating act between two human beings. Where what was intended to be the “marriage” of two different human spirits and bodies together by entering and receiving not just the anatomy but also the very spirit of another human being has more mind-blowing power than anyone who doesn’t “get it” can ever understand or imagine. The breaking of tiny vaginal blood vessels, the oxytocin release and the vasopressin release was designed to create a “blood covenant” of two becoming “one flesh” for life. Yes, I know that man has screwed it up both literally and figuratively but it is so much more than a physical and even emotional act. That is why the Bible says “The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit”, because it is NOT “just sex”. When you have sex with someone you actually give a part of yourself spiritually, emotionally, mentally and physically that you can never get back to another human being. The sad part about this is that for those who don’t “get it” there is no sense in arguing with them because the scripture I quoted is so true, and all you can do is pray that their dark mind will someday come to God’s light. I pray that the daughters and sons of those who don’t “get it” will “get it” because they will have sex that is so far above what their parents ever experienced, the way God created it to be that is will blow their minds. Like I have heard some kids say “I ain’t mad at ya, just being real”. See ya, got to go now.
“If God is dead, somebody is going to have to take his place. It will be megalomania or erotomania, the drive for power or the drive for
pleasure, the clenched fist or the phallus, Hitler or Hugh Hefner.”
— Malcolm Muggeridge
B.O.TOTUS just might be some or most of both.
yor bro ken
Thanks, Ken. God Bless. :)
No, Bethany, I didn’t know. But for me, ignorance is not bliss, nor has it ever been, or else I wouldn’t be an atheist or a republican. And I’m glad I had the chance to learn for myself.
For these discussions to be worth having at all, both people need to be talking about the same thing. Hal specifically said that he sees no problem with adults at college age or beyond having a few serious relationships — no mention of careless, anonymous sex there. There are vast differences between informed and responsible adults engaging in certain behavior, and children with no sense of perspective — or uninformed, irresponsible adults — engaging in that same behavior. I don’t know how many times Hal, xalisae, and myself can possibly say that, and yet it goes ignored, and the “careless anonymous few moments of pleasure” meme is all that gets discussed.
Well said, Alexandra. I think this sums up this situation very well, and I really shouldn’t bother wasting my time sifting through the insults and condescention to try and get people to understand something they never will because they’ve already deemed it “evil”. Whatever.
Gotta say that the comments on this thread have been exceptional. I do sense though that there is a discord/gulf between some folks.
If I said that one pivotal word may be ‘growth’, there is little doubt that such a word would mean ‘acquiring ever better technique’, while for others the venture is in actually extending the person they are into another being ..’two becoming one’. They are not two isolates, but different aspects of a union called ‘a couple’, like two sides of one coin.
In this view Hal’s daughters are not primarily experimenters (like him) but different aspects of that unity called ‘family’.
Much Ithink can be learned about yourself, if you place ‘comfort’ in your lexicon; especially as it relates to ‘love’.
Jesus had some different views on love: ‘Greater love has no man than he lay down his life for his friends.’ Were the firefighters of 9/11 heroes (of love)?
Hal, do you love me? Someday, Jesus will ask that question of you. [He did ask Peter (three times).] Will you point to your daughters and tell God ‘You know them … so You know me.’
Hal: “Life is short, live a little.”
I’m not in favor of there being some silly war between people who don’t have sex and people who do, but why must “live a little” mean “go screw somebody”?
Carla: “A father protects his daughter, guards her, cherishes her and most important of all…cleans his gun on the porch when the boys come sniffing around. I pity the poor fools who want to date our only daughter.”
Will you also be shining the 12-gauge when girls come ’round to chase your sons?
Prolifer L: “…so I don’t really expect to make any headway or difference or even sense to the agnostics and the ‘free love’ crew.”
Why the compartmentalizing? I’m rather agnostic and I’m nowhere near the “free love” crew.
No, Bethany, I didn’t know. But for me, ignorance is not bliss, nor has it ever been, or else I wouldn’t be an atheist or a republican. And I’m glad I had the chance to learn for myself.
Okay, good.
You say that you were not able to know how good sex could be until you had your next sexual partner.
Now, is it not possible that you are STILL in the dark about how much BETTER sex could be with someone else?
After all, you’ve only had two experiences (that I know of), and really- shouldn’t you be seeking out another lover to see if maybe you have missed out on something better, somewhere else?
After all, ignorance is NOT bliss. You wouldn’t want to remain in the dark when there is probably someone who could please you even more than you are being pleased now.
You could be missing out on something AWESOME, and you could still be ignorantly assuming that this is the best that sex gets (since after all, you have assumed this before), when it could actually be much better! Am I wrong?
bmmg39,
A gun isn’t necessary with the little ladies who come around. My almost 13 year old son already gives them the eye roll.
I don’t know how me supporting a sexual relationship within the confines of a devoted romantic relationship turned into an advocation of “free love”-it’s not, and in no way do I support people irresponsibly spreading themselves around wantonly in a disgraceful manner…but whatever.
“You say that you were not able to know how good sex could be until you had your next sexual partner.
Now, is it not possible that you are STILL in the dark about how much BETTER sex could be with someone else? ”
Because I’m not constantly out looking for sex with other people. That’s not only how I know the physical relationship I have with him is good, but that every aspect of our relationship is also good. If I just had a filet mignon buffet, I’m not wondering how good the mac’n’cheese at the next table might be. I don’t know why this seems so hard for you guys to grasp, but just because I let myself cultivate an understanding of what constitutes good vs. bad sex to me doesn’t mean I’m constantly curious about what else I could have. I MARRIED HIM, that means that any and all conclusions have been reached, and I’m happy to be done. :)
bmmg39 I probably should have clarified that my comments were directed at those who consider themselves “agnostic AND part of the “free love” crew”, who at least seem to connect their agnosticism with their belief that premarital sex is a good thing and a good way to discover who you like and what you like before marriage. I disagree with them but like I noted “I’m not mad at ya” or anyone else for that matter. I felt that my thoughts would be dismissed by them because they are based on a Biblical, theological foundation of the meaning and purpose of sex not on a secular perpective. (I know Xalisae has posted she has a different perpective about premartal sex being for serious adults only). I must say it does make me sad that people don’t “get it” and they “settle” for so much less than what God has available for them, but they have a free will to make that choice, which God has given to every man.
But what I think is GREAT, is that I have met agnostics who are prolifers like you and Xalisae on this blog who don’t believe that women have the “right to choose” to take their own baby’s life by abortion. If it weren’t for Jill’s blog I would not have learned that there are people who are not even sure there is a God but they believe that abortion is wrong.
Fair enough…
But…
I don’t feel as though I’m settling or that I’m missing out on anything. I’m very very happy in my life and my relationship. I don’t think that you guys are missing out on all life has to offer because you’re religious…I’m sure you all are very happy as well…I know you don’t see it as such, but that kind of talk is kind of belittling.
“I bet you can’t wait for the day you hear that coming from your daughters’ mouths… What joy it will bring.”
So Janet should he encourage his sons to have reckless sex? Seriously everyone here is talking about their daughters… why don’t you say something to your sons? Or do you think it’s solely the female’s job to say no to sex. Here’s a big shocker, males can get STD’s too!
…I’m pretty sure Hal has only daughters? Am I mistaken?
Yup, I think that’s right X.
I mean, it’s right that he has 2 daughters, not right that you are mistaken :)
X,
I know we don’t agree on everything, but I admire you, you’re a good person.
The feeling is mutual, Jasper. Thank you for your kind words. :)
I am sorry if my comments seem belittling because they are not meant that way, please forgive me for that. What I probably cannot express very well is that human sexual expression is such an awesome gift, that every human being is so wonderfully made that when we human beings try to put sex in physical and emotional terms we lose the depth of what it is meant to be, which is an act of worship (I’m sorry if that is too religious). I can say that people may argue about the correctness or significance of the sexual exposure calculation discussed in this article but if they only knew how valuable they were and how valuable their sex and their virginity were I think they would look at their sex, their sexual exposure (and even their children’s sex) as something to be treasured and protected. I think that is part of the reason why I feel so strongly about being prolife.
Of course I think whenever these issues of premarital sexual relationships come up on this blog we probably will have to agree we disagree with others even some prolifers. How’s that? I do indeed wish you well and will pray for you and others as well (plese don’t take that as a put down in any way)
I don’t know how me supporting a sexual relationship within the confines of a devoted romantic relationship turned into an advocation of “free love”-it’s not, and in no way do I support people irresponsibly spreading themselves around wantonly in a disgraceful manner…but whatever.
Xalisae, I was saying what I said to make a point about what you said you agreed with Hal about- he said that he would “encourage his daughters” to have sex with multiple partners. And you added that “ignorance is not bliss”, and that you think that it’s better to have more than one partner, so that you can (basically) pick and choose which one you like better in the physical dept. Maybe that’s not how you meant it- that’s just how what you said came across to me.
Maybe you don’t realize it, but to me- and to a lot of people- saying that you’d encourage your children to have multiple partners, and that there’s nothing wrong with that, sounds exactly like someone who is an advocate of “free love”. How else is someone supposed to take such a remark?
Now, if you don’t advocate that and I have misunderstood you, I am sorry.
Because I’m not constantly out looking for sex with other people.
THAT is GOOD. And I suspected that would be your answer, as I know you love your husband and are committed to him. My post was to make a point, not to accuse you.
The thing is- you (in this thread) have seemed to put such an emphasis on sex that it seems to be where your priorities lie, rather than putting the largest emphasis on love and commitment. I agree that sex is important, but if you love someone, does it make sense to decide the relationship isn’t working because you aren’t having a perfect sex life?
Do you see where I am coming from?
“A gun isn’t necessary with the little ladies who come around. My almost 13 year old son already gives them the eye roll.”
Oh! So you live in the land where girls are all sugar and spice and everything nice! And there are unicorns and the Loch Ness Monster and fairies everywhere you look.
There is a difference though between wanting your children not to settle for the first person they happen to run into and actively encouraging promiscuity. There is a difference between valuing a healthy physical relationship when you consider your entire relationship with another person and placing the whole emphasis upon sex. There is a difference between all these things, and from individual to individual, the difference may be subtle or defined, but equating these things is not accurate at all. There ARE people who advocate throwing it all out there, but I don’t think I’m one, and I’m not quite sure there really is anyone here saying exactly that.
As the mother of four daughters and three sons (my eldest daughter was just today wearing her favorite t-shirt, the one that says, “Tell Me Again Why You Think I Need a Boyfriend”…) I can tell you that we emphasize abstinence before marriage strongly for both genders. I think daughters have been covered by the conversation above, so I shall speak of sons…
We tell our sons that they are NEVER to be alone with a female that they are not related to by blood. And by alone, we even mean a minute or two in a private “area” near a relatively well traveled place (say, an alcove in the mall, or something like that). There are multiple reasons for this.
First of all, girls in our area act like brazen whores. Not a nice thing to note, but true. They dress like them, too. Secondly, all a girl has to do is scream “rape” or “he tried to force me” and, if there are no witnesses, the boy is tried and convicted by all who hear it based upon the accusation alone. And lastly, if one of our sons were to have sex with a girl prior to marriage and a child was conceived, the fact that our boys are pro-life wouldn’t matter much… the girl could murder the baby, which is just as much our son’s child as hers, and there would be NOTHING he could do about it.
We discuss all of this quite frequently and openly with our children… it’s too important not to…
As for the STD thing… I’ll tell you, I see it constantly. We are always doing pregnancy tests and STD checks on girls as young as 12 who come in for abdominal pain. Mom is expecting to be told that her daughter has some kind of flu or maybe appendicitis… and instead, it’s an STD or pregnancy. And some of those STDs are very bad to deal with.
Hal, as to the “many people live happy lives with herpes”… what are you smoking??? They may live happy lives DESPITE herpes, but it isn’t easy! I happen to have a friend who has genital herpes… her ex-boyfriend cheated on her and gave them to her. She suffers greatly… not only from the herpes, but when people find out she has them, they treat her differently or shun her altogether. It makes her sex life with her husband (different guy) more complicated. Have you ever seen a PICTURE of genital herpes? Outbreaks are not pretty. She had to have a c-section with her baby because she had a flare-up when he was born… don’t act like it’s nothing… unless you like looking ignorant.
bmmg39,
whatev. Do you have a question for me or a point to make?
Just curious. If the feminists and freelovers on this thread had a son who was say, 16 and you handed him the condoms and encouraged him to have multiple partners how is he “empowering” the young girls he chooses to have sex with? Is he looking to marry one of these girls and “settle down?” Does he “love” them or is he just looking for a moment’s pleasure and is fine with objectifying the girls?
Do you think there is a difference between lust and love?
Elisabeth,
Amen and amen!!
Elisabeth,
very interesting post. You are raising your children well. :)
Elizbeth, well said!
Xalisae, thanks for sharing your perspective- I appreciate it. I still disagree with you though. I think that encouraging children to have multiple sexual partners in life without a doubt discourages them from finding true love.
I’ve seen it too many times from my friends and family who have liberal parents with the same world view as you on sex. I have seen these girls go through man after man, looking for the “right” one…every time they end up with a new one, they think “this is the one! I’m so happy!”…then when they break up- which is almost always inevitable because of the premise of their relationship- they end up being depressed and repeat the cycle again, until they end up in their late 30’s and 40’s still not married or happy – some of them trying to commit suicide and thinking they are worthless. It happens all of the time. I have seen it SO many times it is depressing.
I wouldn’t encourage my children to settle for the first guy or girl who came around either, but their criteria would be always based on the character of the person, not their physical ability to please the other in bed – I would never encourage my children to have sex with a man unless they were committed to them in marriage. That is a gift that they will give to the one they truly love.
If you truly love someone, things like sex won’t be the deciding point on whether the relationship will continue. There is so much more to love than sex.
A “few serious relationships in college” is infatuation, not love.
Here is how I define love- as per 1 Cor 13:
Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
it does not boast,
it is not proud.
It is not rude,
it is not self-seeking,
it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails.
I have to say, I’m thrilled with our daughter’s group at school… their latest favorite read, making its way through the entire junior class is “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” by Josh Harris. There is some dating taking place among the students but for the most part they just hang out as a group. It’s refreshing to see. It probably helps that this is a group of kids with some really big goals in life.
“…pregnancy tests and STD checks on girls as young as 12“, “…a son who was say, 16…”, “I think that encouraging children…”
-placing this discussion in the context of very young children and teenagers is completely ridiculous, and nothing I would advocate. We’re not even expecting to have “the talk” with our kids until late jr. high…and technique definitely isn’t age-appropriate for people we think shouldn’t be having sex in the first place. There really should be 2 talks, one to get the gist of things and warn of things like STDs, pregnancy, etc., and then when your kid has become an adult and is actually engaging in a sexual relationship, another talk about specifics and sex in the context of a relationship. My parents didn’t talk to me at all about sex, ever. Nor did they talk to me about relationships, ever. These are things I found out on my own and want my children to know because they’re important. And once again, Bethany, there is a difference between just telling your kids how to do it and throwing them out there and actually giving them perspective into what you feel is a successful relationship.
Just as nowhere did I say before you should encourage underage children to have multiple sexual partners, NOWHERE have I ever said that sex is or should be the primary defining aspect of a relationship. When I broke up with my boyfriend, he had a lot more problems than just bad technique, and I’d never judge a relationship based primarily on the quality of a physical relationship, and I don’t think anyone should.
Attempting to contort my message to make it something tawdry and shallow is unfair.
Xalisae, I am making general comments, I certainly have not directed anything up until this point to you specifically, so to include quotes from my post and then tell ME that I’m “contorting your message” is a tidge hypocritical. I’m merely giving my experiences.
And as a pediatric RN I promise, if you wait until late junior high to discuss sex and its consequences with your children it will be too late. Others will have already “filled them in” and it may not be with the messages you want them to have! We discuss, in age appropriate ways, sexuality and where babies come from and so on from the time our children are babies themselves! (Granted, a household with a new baby every 2-4 years does lend itself to bringing up the subject more naturally!)
I’ve said this before, but I think the biggest issue with sex and young people is the fact that we tell young adults not to have sex, but also not to marry.
More and more research is showing that marriage in the early 20’s has the best outcomes. Instead of pushing our children to wait until they near 30 to marry, we should encourage them to begin seriously considering marriage once they become adults.
That doesn’t mean we should tell them to marry the first person that comes along, but rather to date with intention. Don’t waste time with someone you can’t see yourself marrying.
Lauren at September 27, 2009 2:19 PM
I agree. In addition to the reasons you gave, my daughter wants to get married much earlier than I did because she realizes the benefits of being a younger Mom – having more energy and the biological clock isn’t working against you.
* * * * *
Posted by: Elisabeth at September 27, 2009 2:23 AM
I love your comments. I’m going to save it and send it everyone I know who has teenage children!
“So Janet should he encourage his sons to have reckless sex? Seriously everyone here is talking about their daughters… why don’t you say something to your sons? Or do you think it’s solely the female’s job to say no to sex. Here’s a big shocker, males can get STD’s too!”
Posted by: A Woman at September 26, 2009 6:45 PM
No, I don’t think boys or girls should be encouraged to have “reckless sex”. (Thanks Bobby and xalisae for your clairification.)
Elisabeth: “First of all, girls in our area act like brazen whores. Not a nice thing to note, but true. They dress like them, too. Secondly, all a girl has to do is scream ‘rape’ or ‘he tried to force me’ and, if there are no witnesses, the boy is tried and convicted by all who hear it based upon the accusation alone.”
Okay, I see Elisabeth and I live on the same planet. She gives good advice: tell your sons AND daughters to be careful to avoid being alone with the opposite gender in scenarios like that.
Considering my other sons are 3 and 6 I now see what you are getting at. Don’t make me guess, bmmg39.
Sons and daughter in this house have the same expectations and boundaries.(My husband feels more of a burden for his only girl)
I wasn’t addressing that comment specifically to any one person.
I was just saying that you all seem to want to frame this debate in the context of VERY young kids, and it simply isn’t the case we’re talking about.
Also, what was good enough for me will be good enough for my children. I was kept away from such things for a long time by my parents, and I’ll do the same for my children with vigilance.
In second place is chlamydia, with a 4% infection rate. The study found that African American teenagers are most severely affected; around 48% of young African American women have an STD, compared to 20% of young white women.
Posted by: Hal at September 25, 2009 3:08 PM
Remember these numbers include both sexually active people and those who are not. The infection rates for those who are sexually active are even higher because they are a smaller number than the total.
If only 50% of young white women are sexually active, then STD incidence among the other half is 40% not 20%.
The risk for those partaking is higher than the incidence rate.
Oops, I should have typed it:
If 50% of young white women are NOT sexually active, then STD incidence among the other half is 40% not 20%.
The risk for those partaking is higher than the incidence rate.
Posted by: hippie at September 27, 2009 5:25 PM
Unfortunately, this world is NOT the one your parents raised you in. I homeschooled all of the children until last year (and pulled all but Alison back to homeschooling) and even *I* have had to deal with the children’s inadvertent exposure.
Obviously, keep things age appropriate. I’m all for maintaining as much innocence as possible for as long as possible. But late junior high is WAY too late to begin talking to them. Trust me… I’ve diagnosed way too many pregnancies in the past couple of years on 12 year olds… whose parents insisted their children didn’t even *know* about such things!
Carla: “Considering my other sons are 3 and 6 I now see what you are getting at. Don’t make me guess, bmmg39.”
I was seconding Elisabeth’s experience that girls can be far more sexually eager and/or predatory than some would like to give them credit for, so I’m glad if your boys and girl all have the same boundaries.
My husband and I gave our virginity to eachother! How wonderful! I dated many boys who just wanted to have sex with me. I always worried that they were cheating on me because they were so OBSESSED with sex. When I married my husband I knew he would never cheat on me because sex wasn’t the most important thing to him. My sexuality wasn’t the most important aspect of me–it wasn’t the most consuming thing to him. I was able to give myself to him emotionally and physically and feel incredibly loved and safe. It was a beautiful thing.
Hal–you are also not taking into consideration that for a woman sex is much more emotional than it is for a man. Your poor advice and “encouragement” will lead to much emotional scars for your daughter. I’m glad you’re not my dad! How awful for a dad to view his daughter’s sexuality so cheaply!
1 in 4 Americans has some type of STD. Think about THAT. My friend’s mom started sleeping around after her divorce and at 40 years of age has now contracted HERPES. YUCK!!!!!
Sydney, great post!
My husband and I also gave our virginity to each other. I am thankful to God for that. I would have regretted it so much had I given in to many of my old boyfriends and given away that to one of them. There was plenty of opportunity for this to happen.
And to imagine my husband having been with other women before marrying me- I know that I would always be in my heart and would hurt. It would be extremely difficult for me personally to deal with. I know it would be the same for him if it had been me having past experiences.
I have friends who have difficulties coming to terms with the past lovers that their spouse has been with. Especially when they know who the person is. It’s very hard to deal with, and causes hurt and insecurity in the relationship.
My parents didn’t talk to me at all about sex, ever. Nor did they talk to me about relationships, ever. These are things I found out on my own and want my children to know because they’re important. And once again, Bethany, there is a difference between just telling your kids how to do it and throwing them out there and actually giving them perspective into what you feel is a successful relationship.
Xalisae, that was my situation too. My parents never told me about sex, and did everything in their power to make sure that I wasn’t even aware it existed.
I made a decision that when I grew up, I would never shelter my children like that. One of the biggest reasons I think this is important is because it was my lack of knowledge and understanding about sex that I was almost raped one night at the age of 12. I had no idea what this boy was about to do to me. The only thing that saved me was when he heard voices and ran away. Had I known what he was trying to do, and had been prepared for it, I could have said No and ran away. We were behind a church and there were people on the other side. This kind of thing can happen ANYWHERE, even at a church. I think that my mom meant well and was trying to protect me but ended up causing me problems by not telling me something that I needed to know very much.
There has to be a balance, a medium. It’s just as bad to be underprotective as it is to be overprotective.
I think that the best thing is for children to understand what sex is, and that it is a good thing, designed by God to create a union between one man and a woman.
They also need to understand that sex can be used in the wrong way, which can cause hurt, pain, broken hearts, and yes, STD’s etc.
Just as they need to know what drugs are and how they can be beneficial if used correctly, but can be very harmful if abused- they need to know that sex is a wonderful thing which is very beneficial but can be harmful if abused.
my 14 year old niece has already been approached for sex. I didn’t get that kind of pressure till I was 16! Our kids are looking to us for guidance and reassurance and we have to be PARENTS and PARENT them!
I am a young mom and really close with my niece. I told her exactly what you have alluded to Bethany. I told her that she doesn’t want to carry that kind of baggage into her marriage. She says she wants to save herself for her husband but “what if my future husband isn’t saving himself for me?” kind of a thing. I think its so important, as Bethany has done, to not leave our sons out of the equation. They are equally responsible for their sexual purity as a girl is. They don’t want to cause emotional harm to their future wife by sleeping with girlfriends now. They also can contract STDs. We need to teach our sons self-control. Only when we respect sex and stop acting as if we are animals in heat will this abortion culture end. When you respect sex you respect the life that comes from it.
I meant that Bethany HAS taught her sons self-control! I worded it incorrectly in my post!
X, Alexandra and Hal,
Please forgive me if I was rude or snide or hurtful in any way in my comments to you on this thread. I care about all of you very much even though we disagree on this subject. You know my motivation, you know my heart, you know why I am here. Guess what my 12 year old son and I talked about on the way to school this morning? Give you a hint. It is spelled s-e-x.
Bethany and Sydney,
I have many friends who share your amazing experience!! :) You have no idea how I wish I could go back and change some things.
X, Alexandra and Hal,
Please forgive me if I was rude or snide or hurtful in any way in my comments to you on this thread. I care about all of you very much even though we disagree on this subject.
I want to second that thought, Carla. If I came across that way, it wasn’t my intent! Like you, I do care about Xalisae, Alexandra, and Hal a lot.
By the way, my son is 9 years old but he reads a lot of biology textbooks and has learned all about fetal development. He has learned on his own that the sperm and the egg unite to create a new human being, and he knows the development stages after this. The only problem is that he hasn’t figured out how the sperm gets into the woman’s body. I am sure the question will come up soon enough. lol
She says she wants to save herself for her husband but “what if my future husband isn’t saving himself for me?” kind of a thing. I think its so important, as Bethany has done, to not leave our sons out of the equation. They are equally responsible for their sexual purity as a girl is. They don’t want to cause emotional harm to their future wife by sleeping with girlfriends now.
Amen to that.
My eldest son and I pray for his future wife. That she does not give in to temptation and saves herself for him, just like he will.
Carla–thats a great idea! I know my sister does this with her four boys. I guess I had forgotten it but I am going to start praying with my son for his future wife now.
Carla, How awesome that his thoughts are focused on his future wife. I am sure he will find a great woman to marry one day…and what a lucky woman that will be!
Sydney M.: “Hal–you are also not taking into consideration that for a woman sex is much more emotional than it is for a man.”
Again: I disagree strongly with generalizations such as these. There are plenty of men who think about sex more emotionally than their female partners.
Further, while I’m cool with people “saving themselves” for marriage, I’m concerned with the “macro” result of this. It bothers me that sex is placed on such a high pedestal in society and that everything else is considered secondary (or tertiary). And I think the abstinence message contributes to this unwittingly, because when we ask, “Well, is it okay to ________ when you’re not married, so long as you don’t have sex?” And the response is, “Of course. Just don’t have sex because that’s SO special,” and in doing so we “learn” that holding hands, kissing on the cheek, cuddling, and saying “I love you” apparently just aren’t as “important” as sex, since there’s no frowning upon doing any of THOSE while you’re still unmarried. And I think that holding hands, kissing on the cheek, cuddling, and saying “I love you” are tremendously important and shouldn’t be treated as little throwaway gestures.
I think an adult person has to draw their own lines of what they think is appropriate for them. Some wait to have their first kiss on their wedding day, others just hold hands. The temptation is there and that is what many are trying to avoid. The temptation to go further. Many of my friends never dated their current spouses. They courted. The intent was for marriage and was communicated to the parents and the future spouse.
Not saying kissing, hand holding, saying I love you is frowned upon. Nobody has said that.
And that is what the abstinence message says? I don’t think so.
bmmg39–I actually really agree with you. They shouldn’t be treated as little throw away gestures. And yes, there are men who think of sex way more emotionally than women. I’m saying in GENERAL women are wired differently. Men are aroused more visually than a woman, think of sex differently. Not EVERY person fits this mold, but in general they do.
I told my niece that I used to sneak off to be alone with boyfriends all the time even though I wanted to remain pure. Why did I put myself in that predicament? Why did I make it SO HARD to remain a virgin? I cautioned her against even putting herself in a situation where she COULD have sex. Its like saying “i’m going to diet.” and then buying TONS of chocolate to have in your house? Why try to sabotage yourself?
You will NEVER regret only have one sexual partner but you MAY regret having more than one!
And I think that holding hands, kissing on the cheek, cuddling, and saying “I love you” are tremendously important and shouldn’t be treated as little throwaway gestures.
Posted by: bmmg39 at September 28, 2009 10:19 AM
I agree with you that they shouldn’t be treated as “throwaway gestures”, but I don’t think it is the abstinence message that contributes to this. It may in fact be the opposite. IIn a permissive society, if sex is the goal every time, a couple may lose sight of the value of the smaller loving gestures like holding hands, and kisses on the cheek, and hugs. Looking at the (mostly) Catholic practice of Natural Family Planning (NFP) – If a couple practices it in their marriage, these simple gestures are of utmost importance because they ARE the expressions of love for the couple that abstains.
Carla, no worries, I didn’t think that you were being snide, though people here are often snide on this subject. I don’t really care if people here approve of my choices or not, and my only wish for people on this site is that they find choices of their own that make them feel comfortable, happy, and respected. I dislike when people say things like, “My children are being taught not to have sex before marriage. They care about EDUCATION instead!” because that’s a pretty false dichotomy, but all I’ll do in response is point out that the vast majority of people I know who care about their education, their philanthropic efforts, etc, also have had sex before marriage.
I had sex when I was 22. My parents discussed sex with me all the time, when I was growing up — sex in the media, sex in real life, the risks of sex, the reasons people have sex, responsible and irresponsible ways of being sexual. My sisters and I have all found sex to be an enjoyable, non-damaging part of our lives, before marriage (and after marriage, for my older sister). So naturally I will make my voice heard when the standard discussion comes up and YET AGAIN people act as though sex either occurs within marriage, or between reckless and unprepared children who end up damaged by it.
I am not hurt by the thought of all the women Mr. Alexandra was with before me, and I don’t really understand why I would be. He had a full, adult life, made of ups and downs, before we even knew each other existed. I did as well! When we met each other, our lives changed for each other. I see nothing to be jealous of in any of that. I loved people before him. He had sex with people before me. We love each other and have sex with each other and are committed to each other, above anyone else in our past or future.
Thanks Alexandra.
Education is just one of the many things my children will be working on.
Your kids, and all others blessed with good parents. :)
Alexandra,
You are such a sweetheart.
Do you think there is something fundamentally wrong with teaching abstinence OR do you find it sounds more like an attack on your lifestyle? I really don’t mean it to sound that way. I am just passionate about changing a legacy. The junk stops here. :)
Thank you, Alexandra. Once again, you phrase things so much more eloquently than I ever could.
Do you think there is something fundamentally wrong with teaching abstinence OR do you find it sounds more like an attack on your lifestyle?
Neither — I don’t think there’s anything wrong with teaching abstinence, and I don’t think that someone choosing to be abstinent, or to teach their children to be abstinent, is an attack on my “lifestyle.” But if people communicate their abstinence-teaching reasons and it’s full of “sex outside of marriage just means hurting and heartbreak,” I’m going to voice my experiences and the experiences of most of my friends, which run to the contrary. I have not been hurt by sex. My sisters have not been hurt by sex. Most of the men and women I know well enough to know these things have not been hurt by sex. Abstinence is not my “enemy” — broad and false generalizations are.
X — thanks. I get so tired of this sometimes. I am such a boring old fuddy-duddy, for a 26-year old. We have “board game night,” for pity’s sake! Passive-aggressively leave dishes for each other to wash. Clean the apartment in a flurry and stuff the junk into closets when friends come to “visit the city” and always want to stay with us. Watch NCIS (well, okay, he watches NCIS, and I just make fun of him for it). etc. It always surprises me to be implied “reckless” or “careless!”
My first time was forced, after that I just didn’t care anymore. It explains the pain of my experiences and my choices and ultimately why I want better for my children.
Carla, I’m sorry. It goes without saying that that should never have happened to you, but I’ll say it anyway: that should never have happened to you.
I don’t take any offense at you teaching your children anything, religious or not. All I hope is that you can find the wisdom in yourself to not apply your traumatic experiences to unmarried, sexually active people in general.
Alexandra,
Can one live a clean, educated, and motivated life, but still be careless or reckless with their money?
I think so.
In the same way, I also think that someone can have a really good life in some respects, but also be careless with their own bodies.
************************
Carla, I am so very sorry that happened to you. You have been through so much!
I love you!
Yes, Bethany, of course. My point is not that caring about education means a person is responsible in all ways, but that having premarital sex does not mean a person is irresponsible in all — or any, depending on your point of view — ways.
Like I said earlier, we can agree to disagree with those who are prolifers but who do not place the same value on sex or put sex on the same “pedestal” that Christian believers do. I think it is sad but I think I understand why agnostic prolifers get riled up about this topic. There will always be a rift about these two mindsets because “the carnal man cannot fully discern or comprehend the things of the spirit”. Why do we ascribe such a “pedestal” to sexual expression saying that it is meant to be saved for marriage even though it goes against everything going on in our culture? Even though we know we are not perfect and we stumble ourselves?
Because we believe as Paul taught in Ephesians 5:31-33 “For this cause a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto his wife, and they shall be ONE flesh” (sex is a “one flesh” act or becoming one spirit act) “This is a great mystery comparing Christ and his church” (to the marriage consumation of a husband and wife becoming one flesh and spirit)…”let every one of you so love his wife even as himself”. Or in Timothy “Flee youthful lust” or in ICorinthians 6:18 which says “Flee sexual immorality or fornication. Every other sin that a man does is outside of or without his own body but he that commits sexual sin, sins against his own body”(his very spirit is joined with another). Why is sex such a BIG DEAL because in the very next verse 20 Paul says “For you are bought with a great price; that is why God wants you to glorify Himself in your body and your spirit,”. Because even if you cannot receive what I say YOU, YOUR SOUL, YOUR BODY, YOUR SEX, and what you do with your body, your soul and your sex is so valuable that Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for it. So even just having a few sexual partners goes against God’s plan and purpose for sex because you are so valuable and special. I’m “not mad at ya”, I am not putting you down because I am sure imperfect myself but I love you in Christ. Got to go.
Prolifer L, you are absolutely right.
“…and what you do with your body, your soul and your sex is so valuable that Jesus Christ paid the ultimate price for it.”
I’m sorry. I have been trying to stay out of religious debates, but that makes no sense at all.
#1. No one asked Him to
#2, He didn’t have to, he was God, he could have washed away our sins by planting a tree or something if he wanted to. “He” made the rules, after all. It’s not our fault that the rule He made up said He had to die for our sins. He should have made up a better rule.
#3 He didn’t pay any price at all really, he still go this everlasting life. And it was his plan all along to return to heaven, wasn’t it?
So, there seems to me to be several very legitimate reasons someone might want to save sex for marriage. “Cause Jesus died for me” is not one of them.
Sure is a mystery Hal isn’t it Hal. I said that already but it’s ok this stuff is pretty mysterious stuff. If you really are searching there probably are some here who have some answers to your questions, it might be helpful to read the book by Lee Strobel “The Case for Christ” or Josh McDowell’s “Evidence the Demands a Verdict”, who started out agnostics/atheist trying to disprove God and Jesus. If you really are NOT searching then nothing I say, they say or anyone else says will probably be sufficient. Catholics here may you refer to The Theology of the Body and other resources that I don’t know about.
Prolifer, I’m not searching. I already regret posting it. Sometimes religious ideas seem so “foreign” to me I can’t even wrap my arms around them. But, to be honest, I’ve never tried to hard and probably never will. So, I should keep my mouth shut and let everyone hold onto their world view in peace without snark from me.
Alexandra,
I’m sorry would have sufficed.
I don’t think so. I think Alexandra said what needed to be said, honestly.
But personally, yes, the idea of sex being placed up on some mystical pedistal is very foreign to me, especially because I’m glad to have been rid of my virginity by the time I met the man I would marry. My first time was painful and not enjoyable at all. I’m glad I was able to fully enjoy sex by the time I found my husband, because “Ow!” doesn’t really seem like something I wanted to “save” for him, anyway. I don’t see what the big deal about virginity is.
1) Carla, Bethany, a good book, if you don’t already have it is Preparing Him for the Other Woman: A Mother’s Guide to Raising Her Son to Love a Wife and Lead a Family
2) I assume the snide comment about the false dichotomy was aimed at me, since I mentioned that. The fact is that it is NOT a false dichotomy. Working as I do with junior high and senior high girls I can guarantee you that many of them spend time that would better be spent on their education obsessing over boys. It is all-consuming for a vast number of young ladies. We even have young ladies we are treating for drug overdoses and other types of suicide attempts because “the boy” was more important to her not only than her education, but than her life!
I was extremely focused on my education and opportunities… however, even so I look back and realize the many, many, MANY *missed* opportunities because at different times in my high school career a certain boy was more important than whatever else was going on. It was a waste. I talk quite frankly about those missed opportunities with my children… it’s not regret, per se, but a realization that I could have done *better* than I did. I also recognize that some of that was due to untreated ADHD, so it isn’t all the fault of my teenage boy craziness!
Because Alison wants to be a veterinarian, which is an EXTREMELY hard career path, I encourage her even more than I otherwise would to focus on school ahead of relationships at this time in her life. She isn’t old enough to get married, so why bother with relationships that *cannot* at this time go any further? Now, she has TONS of friends, many of whom are boys and I’m lucky that her classmates (it’s a very competitive charter school for veterinary and agricultural science students where they graduate from high school with their associate’s degree in science) are, for the most part, on the same page. It makes it easier for her.
I certainly am not saying that those who date in high school don’t care about their education. I’m saying some of them don’t, and for my daughter, with her difficult chosen path, she can’t afford to waste ANY time on relationships that distract her from her goals. There are very, very few veterinary schools, not only in the U.S., but in the world. It’s far harder to get into veterinary school than it is to get into medical school!
I hope that clarifies the issue.
And that’s great…but I don’t think anyone here’s been talking about high-school-aged children. Once again, the debate shifts back to underaged kids when that’s simply not the situation on the whole.
Prolifer, I’m not searching. I already regret posting it. Sometimes religious ideas seem so “foreign” to me I can’t even wrap my arms around them. But, to be honest, I’ve never tried to hard and probably never will. So, I should keep my mouth shut and let everyone hold onto their world view in peace without snark from me.
Posted by: Hal at September 28, 2009 7:29 PM
Personally, I am searching, but what Hal says about organized religion seeming “foreign” really resonates with me. And I have spent a LOT of time and effort trying to wrap my head around various versions of theology.
In my case, I’ve come to the conclusion that my brain just doesn’t work that way and probably never will. But that’s how God made me. And Pascal’s Wager has always seemed like *way* more of a cop-out than admitting you just can’t understand the workings of a superior being capable of creating the universe.
Hey, humans are stupid. The best you can do is try to be less stupid than your neighbour.
On the plus side, though, I’ve ended up with tons of great photos of religious statues.
And I can’t say anything about this topic that hasn’t been said yet — and, in my opinion, most memorably and eloquently by Alexandra.
Okay, if I was discussing Hal’s daughters, that would be true. However, plenty of people have been discussing children of ALL ages, from child through adult. If we’re discussing “the situation as a whole”… they are part of the whole.
In addition, as someone who works with this age group, I can guarantee you that the behavior of the “adult” children, the twenty and even thirty somethings is affected profoundly by the behavior of the junior high/senior high school age group. It is far harder to value healthy sexual relationships in young adulthood when you’ve been treated (whether allowed by you or by force) as nothing other than a sexual plaything in your teen years. It is disingenuous to try to separate the adult years from the formative years.
I don’t think so, but I guess it was just my experience. If you can relate using your knowledge, then I should be able to relate using mine.
I had zero sexual contact until the time I was just about 19 years old, and was able to start relationships, eventually with a sexual aspect. This did not harm me, I didn’t not have anonymous sex with numerous random partners…and the sexual encounters I had (apart from my first one, for more reasons than that it hurt…it was just a bad relationship and I’m oh so glad I didn’t end up with the guy I first had sex with permanently) did not damage me in any way shape or form. It doesn’t bother my husband that I’ve had a couple boyfriends before him, and it doesn’t bother me that he had a sexual partner before we met either.
I think treating this topic as though every single person who maintains sexual relationships outside of marriage is an irresponsible, loose, under-aged child is disingenuous.
Terezia–the Bible says “If any man lack understanding, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally’ If you want to understand GOD read His word, the Bible! Don’t focus on “theology” but just read His word. And pray that the Holy Spirit will open your eyes. The Bible says that the Bible and things of God are “foolishness” to those who are unsaved because they have spiritual blinders on. I had a friend who tried to read the Bible and thought it was a lot of jibberish. Then this past spring she asked Christ to save her soul and when she went to read the Bible it started to suddenly make sense to her! God doesn’t want anyone to be in the dark, and He will make it clear to you if you ask Him.
Sydney,
“If any man lack understanding, let him ask of God who giveth to all men liberally”
Of course, one has to be careful with this verse because otherwise you might end up starting the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints! :)
I am finding this thread very interesting. Indeed.
When I stand with my I Regret My Abortion sign I hear the following things.
I don’t regret mine!
It never bothered me!
It is the best thing I’ve ever done!
It’s my body! I’ll do what I want!
It’s safe and legal!
Not everyone feels the way you do!
I am so glad I had one!
It’s none of your business!
Not everyone regrets their abortions, you know!
Interesting.
The same people that allow me to tell my abortion story here with total acceptance are the same ones warning me to watch myself and admonish me to be wise when I talk about sex outside of marriage. Wisdom comes through learning something of value from life experience. I think I qualify.
My abortion hardly “just happened.” It was the culmination of living outside of God’s will for me. I did nothing to please Him. Sin. I was in the dark and He used my experiences to draw me to Himself.
So, really I have to praise him for rape, for promiscuity, underage drinking and sex, STD’s and unplanned pregnancy and an abortion!! Through all of the pain and anguish He knew I would FINALLY surrender.
My story is hardly unique. Read any account of an ex-pimp, hooker, stripper, addict of any kind who found Jesus. They reached bottom and now they can’t keep their story in, because others see Jesus and He draws them to Himself. He uses me to do just that. 2 people in the last month have told me their abortion stories by just seeing my tattoo of Aubrey’s name.
Maybe, just maybe you might entertain the thought that this thread is about more than sex. And just because you do not believe there is a God, you are hardly immune to the effects of sin in your life.
And I think that refusing to discuss legitimate issues facing the youth of this nation simply because one person, you, didn’t have sex until you were 19 (which, if you think about it, actually *proves* my points above)is extremely shortsighted.
Carla, I hope you don’t think I ever admonished you or asked you to watch yourself.
But, this thread is indeed about sex, and its consequences. Sex is very complicated despite appearing very simple (especially to the young). The people I know who claim to have healthy sex lives all share that their early experiences were positive. Carla, you are fortunate to have moved passed early negative events and found fulfillment. I know you credit your relationship with God for your current happiness, and I have no quarrel with that.
I guess everyone must find their own way on the journey of life.
First off, I’m sorry to learn of your horrible experience, Carla. I distribute literature for two national anti-abuse organizations that assist both male and female victims. I can give you the websites if you so wish.
Janet: “I agree with you that they shouldn’t be treated as ‘throwaway gestures,’ but I don’t think it is the abstinence message that contributes to this. It may in fact be the opposite. IIn a permissive society, if sex is the goal every time, a couple may lose sight of the value of the smaller loving gestures like holding hands, and kisses on the cheek, and hugs. Looking at the (mostly) Catholic practice of Natural Family Planning (NFP) – If a couple practices it in their marriage, these simple gestures are of utmost importance because they ARE the expressions of love for the couple that abstains.”
I like the idea of NFP, but my idea is that those “other” things should be practiced even at times when couples “CAN” have sex. In the scenario you describe (and I know you might not mean it this way), the couple is engaging in the “other simple gestures” only because they can’t have sex right now.
I once wrote a short story about a young couple who are virgins the day they get married, and their friends all figure they’re “saving up” for a wild wedding night, when in fact they couldn’t care less about sex — they’re just happy doing “whatever” so long as they’re together — and it’s in doubt if they’ll even HAVE sex on their wedding night.
On the same theme, I’ve noticed that THE COSBY SHOW is the only one I can think of in which the couple would happily cuddle together even at times when they have the house to themselves and could be having sex. Normally on TV or in the movies, couples cuddle only a.) right before sex, b.) right after sex, or c.) when circumstances dictate that they can’t have sex right now (they’re in the subway, their kids are around, etc.).
I wasn’t ripping the idea of abstinence at all; as a borderline asexual, I’m cool with it. I just worry about the message it seems to send, when we hear, “Oh, sure, you can do all those OTHER things. They’re not a big deal.”
Ah, the Cosby Show… I knew there was a reason I liked you, bmmg39 :)
Thank you bmmg39, I am watching God restore my life and bless me beyond the things that have happened in the past. :)
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ,
He is a new creation,
The old has gone,
The new has come!!
Amen.
Love you, Hal.
Wow…now apparently I’ve been belittle other peoples’ ways of behaving themselves and raising their children…Excuse me…but you guys were and have been from the beginning the ones “admonishing” the people who have expressed the fact that they have had and some continue to have meaningful sexual relationships outside of marriage.
We say to you, “Yeah, well, I’ve had sex with more than just my husband in my lifetime, in the context of exclusive romantic relationships. I don’t think it’s a bad thing.” You all cannot accept that, tell us we are just in denial about being damaged, or must’ve been some underaged loose person, etc…and then finally, WE are the ones attacking YOU.
HARDY HAR HAR. RIGHT.
I just want acceptance. That’s all. I don’t want to be told I’m dysfunctional or wrong or sinful or anything like that, and I’m pretty sure I’ve said that I don’t think there is anything wrong with abstinence if you so choose for yourself or to instruct your children. I just want what I’ve been giving in return, and I’m still not getting it.
And I know I’m not going to. /shrug
I think it all goes back to this original article where the head of sexual health of Lloyds Pharmacy said (I am paraphrasing) “When you sleep with someone you are having sex with all the people that person has had sex with and all the people that they have slept with and that they have slept with”. I think we can agree to disagree to what degree the impact of this statement is true. Christians believe what the scriptures have taught about sex being a spiritual, emotional, mental and physical event with pre-marital sex having detrimental effects and non-believers don’t agree with us and think it has no detrimental effects.
Actually, several of us have framed this in the paradigm of a health-care issue, but when we discuss it that way, even if responding to comments by others about anyone under the age of 18 we are told that *that* isn’t important to the issue. Apparently, you think that because *you* didn’t have sex until you were 19, discussing anything younger than that is irrelevant. Again, I think it proves my point (which has not been about religious viewpoints, sin or anything else along those lines, although of course I do have opinions about those issues.)
Maybe this will help show what I’m trying to say. Studies show that if a person makes it to the age of 21 without ever having smoked, the chances of them taking up smoking are extremely small. Therefore, our best chances at preventing problems in the adult population caused by smoking (which is not a “sin”, is not illegal and, if done with consideration for those around you *pretty much* only harms the person doing it) is to prevent the habit from taking hold during youth.
My husband, for example, began smoking at the age of 12. He is just now celebrating two months of being cigarette free. It was very hard. He had to do it for himself. He never smoked around me or the children, and he always bathed or at least washed up prior to returning to our presence. Even so, it was an issue for us and I’m really proud of him. Mostly I was annoyed by the cost of it. Had he been less considerate about how he handled it I probably would have had other, health related issues for the children and I… as it was, I tried not to nag, even though he knew I worried about HIS health.
I have never smoked. No great virtue on my part, I don’t like the smell, when I was little my mom used to point out the faces of women who smoked and showed me how much older they looked around the mouth (and my mom, despite many shortcomings, has always looked many years younger than her age), and I worked VERY hard to put money in my college account by babysitting and teaching piano all through high school… so I wasn’t about to waste it (and cigarettes were WAY cheaper back then!) So hey, if vanity and being a cheapskate worked in ways that ended up protecting my health, great!
In the same manner, pre-teens and teens who engage in casual sex, especially the younger they are, the less likely they are to make it unscarred emotionally to adulthood and able to make healthier decisions about sexuality. Especially if the initiating event was sex that was coerced either physically or emotionally. Kids are cruel and kids talk. For girls, especially, it can be devastating emotionally to be known as easy or cheap. These girls go through high school thinking that their only worth is found in allowing the boys or men in their lives to use them and hope that one of them actually lives up to what he says in the heat of the moment… which almost never happens, leading to more emotional issues and even lower self-esteem.
In contrast, when teens, especially girls, make it through junior and senior high school and into college focused on activities, hobbies, healthy friendships, and educational/life goals, they are less likely to end up in devastating circumstances in adulthood. It is no guarantee, for example, any woman can be a victim of rape or date rape. However, as devastating as that is, the ones who become survivor stories and triumph over the pain, *tend* to be those who has previous high self esteem and strong support.
Now, depending upon a person’s personal moral compass and religious beliefs, that may take the form of abstinence until marriage, or it may take the form of limited sexual experiences in adulthood made because the woman *chooses* to engage in the activity for her own reasons, not because she feels that it is her only worth to men. That is why I made the comment above that the fact that you made it to age 19 prior to engaging in sex, had a handful of partners in relatively healthy relationships and do not regret your decisions in that area *proves* the point I was trying to make… I may not choose that for myself. As a Christian, I do not feel it is the *best* or highest choice, remembering always that Christians, like all people, very rarely always make the best or highest choice about every aspect of life.
This is why I am focused on the junior and senior high youth (and of course, the foundation built in childhood) as the key to controlling this issue. In those formative years, identity and self-worth or lack thereof is laid down. I think that those of us who mishandled those years (and as much as I am thrilled with how well my own daughter is handling them, I am one who, triggered by rape in junior high, badly MIShandled those years, although God has been gracious and restored the years the locust have eaten) can vouch for this…
The issues are different, but no less valid for males… less about how they view themselves but more about how they view women. Teen boys who view women as objects to be used and discarded MAY certainly grow up and recognize the error of their ways. However, many of them grow up and continue to treat women as objects to be used and discarded. It would be a rare thing, indeed, if a young man who was raised to view women as a treasure worth waiting for to be cherished, loved as an equal heir to God’s grace, etc., were to grow up to treat women as objects to be used and discarded!
I know that was long, but is it making sense now? (And that’s a legitimate query, not a snide one, for what it’s worth.)
Sorry for the multiple typos… nursing at the keyboard. I hope it doesn’t detract from the message.
Elisabeth, I pretty much agree with everything you said @1:02 p.m.
I would prefer people of both genders not have sex before the age of 18, and never have sex unless they understand what they’re doing, why they’re doing it, and have made a free and intelligent choice about it. Waiting until adulthood is probably a very good way to improve the chances that one’s adult sex life is healthy and happy
“I like the idea of NFP, but my idea is that those “other” things should be practiced even at times when couples “CAN” have sex. ”
bmmg39,
I agree completely!
Interesting story, sydney m. And thanks for the advice :)
The same people that allow me to tell my abortion story here with total acceptance are the same ones warning me to watch myself and admonish me to be wise when I talk about sex outside of marriage.
I don’t think anyone here as warned you to watch yourself, or admonished you, for talking about sex outside of marriage. People have said, “That was not my experience.”
I am curious why it’s a “snide comment” to say that presenting the situation as “you have sex before marriage” OR “you care about education, helping people, etc” is a false dichotomy. It IS a false dichotomy. That’s not a snide comment. Many, many people — myself included — have sex before marriage, care about our education, help others, manage our finances responsibly, etc.
Have you actually read what was written on that topic? First of all, it was not presented as a dichotomy… it was presented as the fact that a high schooler, my daughter, who at 16 is way too young to be focusing on relationships or sex is focused on her education and helping others. That was then treated as if it were referring to everyone everywhere and called a false dichotomy.
For HER age group, it is not. Once young teen girls head down the path of trading away their sexuality for “acceptance” from boys and the peer group, they quickly lose focus on other aspects of life. You can, of course I am sure, find the rare teen girl who has sex with one boyfriend and still focuses on those things… believe me, it is rare. Instead I see girls come in, day after day, week after week, whose entire focus in life is on doing whatever it takes to stay “in favor” with their boyfriends… some of whom come in with them and verbally demean and degrade them (well, at least up until the point I get fed up and throw their sorry punk butts out of my exam room).
Poor syllogism is being applied here. It is as if someone is saying all men have two legs. Courteney Cox has two legs. Therefore Courteney Cox is a man… um, no!
So, for me to say that I want my teenage daughter to focus on her education and caring for others rather than having sexual relationships that cannot lead anywhere… to have others then say “That’s a false dichotomy because I had sex as an adult outside of marriage and still focus on my education” is equally poor logic.
“Once young teen girls head down the path of trading away their sexuality for “acceptance” from boys and the peer group…..”
WHATEVER the age or circumstance, that is the wrong reason to have sex. This is something we can all agree on.
Elisabeth, your comment was not the one I was reacting to. I do know teen girls who were sexually active and emotionally healthy, but on the whole I agree with you that most teenagers are not able to handle the responsibilities that come with sex.
Your daughter sounds like a wonderful girl, and I’m sure you had a lot to do with that. I was definitely not interested in sex when I was her age — not in reality, at least; I found the concept pretty interesting, lol — and I’m grateful that my parents helped me to appreciate and understand both how amazing and how potentially dangerous sex can be.
My mother NEVER talked to me about sex. (My father died when I was a toddler). In fact when I started my period at age 12 she did not discuss what it was or why women get them. I was so confused and upset. AND my mother is an R.N.!!!! I had to read a book to figure out what a period was. My mother didn’t tell me anything about marriage, sex, boys, procreation etc…
My mother did keep me under lock and key and was VERY strict with me as a teenager. I STILL managed to sneak out to be with boys. But I kept my virginity! So how did I turn out okay despite my mother’s lack of guidance? I credit the pro-life mentality with that. I saw a picture of an aborted baby as a child so by time I was a teenager I already understood the link between casual sex and the “fix” of abortion. I found out about STD’s and determined never to put myself in that situation.
Now as a wise old 29 year old I can see i shouldn’t have made purity so difficult by sneaking around with boys as a teen, but I am proud to say I made it through. My husband gave me his gift of virginity and I gave him mine. I have no regrets!
My mother and I are VERY close now. She was much stricter with my sister and I than with our older brothers. I don’t understand why she never talked with me but I do want to say she was a wonderful, concerned mother. We’ve had our battles but she is one of my best friends now and a wise counselor for me!
I always enjoy reading the battle between the “always wait until marriage” and the “eh, not necessarily” crowd. I tend to side more with the “eh, not necessarily” argument. For children and teenagers, I absolutely think abstinence is best and should be taught, but I don’t really get bent out of shape over the few teenagers who have responsible (as much as possible, anyway) sex with their high school sweetheart and don’t regret it and are open to the responsibilites that they may encounter. Most teenagers aren’t in the most healthy and secure relationships and/or don’t fully grasp the permanence of sexual consequences, so the one size fits all approach of abstinence is best for non-adults. When it comes to adults, all I ask is for people to view sex in the context of it’s actual purpose, use discretion and prepare themselves to take responsibility for their actions. Waiting until marriage is a worthy goal and the best way to minimize regret and to guard against clouded judgement. But again, I’m unable to get bent of shape over responsible adults in serious, loving relationships choosing not to wait. As long as you have a realistic attitude towards sex and enough self-respect to share yourself only with committed partners that care about you, I can’t really find much to complain about.
Personally, the only experience I regret was during a time when I was already feeling like garbage (I have bipolar disorder) so I hooked up with someone who I didn’t care about and who certainly didn’t care about me. I knew at the time that it was wrong and dangerous, but at that moment I was so low that I didn’t think it mattered what happened to me. It was stupid, embarassing to think about, and I totally learned my lesson and urge others to learn from my mistake so they can spare themselves the trouble. But, as others here have shared, my experiences as a teenager and young adult that were within a long-term relationship with someone who cared about me, I can’t bring myself to feel badly about it. I made a conscious, informed choice and I’m no worse off for it. And I realize that sometimes people make conscious, informed choices that turn out badly despite their carefulness – I’m genuinely sorry that those things happen. And I understand the “better safe than sorry” mentality and it makes sense – but I just don’t have that mentality to the point of (understandable) strictness that others do.
And yeh, I will have to say that I get aggrevated when I see the debate being unfairly framed (as it was on the this thread), as if one can only choose between promiscuity or marriage, and any deviation from abstinence until marriage warrants insulting accusations. Calm reasoning finally won the day, but time and time again this debate seems to cultivate a lot of unnecessarily raw nerves.
No one who justifies premarital sex for those young or older, stable relationship or not, really dealt with the issue that was presented in this article on sexual exposure that when you have sex with someone you are having sex with ALL of the people that person has had sex with and that person has had sex with and so on. If that person has EVER had sex with anyone else but you, you are being exposed not just to them but to EVERY person that their previous partners had sex with as well, which means you do NOT know exactly how many people you are being sexually exposed to. The bottom line is unless you are both abstinent until marriage and both remain faithful throughout your marriage it is like what Forrest Gump said except you can substitute one word “SEX is like a box of chocolate, you never know what you are going to get”. Not politically correct, not culturally acceptable, not situationally ethical and not accepted by many but the bottom line is it is still a medical fact. Go back and read the quote by Clare Kerr, head of sexual health at Lloydspharmacy “When we sleep with someone we are in effect, not only sleeping with them but also their previous partners and their previous partners and so on.” The Bible didn’t say that, I did not say that, the head of sexual health of Lloydspharmacy (a large British pharmacy chain) did.
My point is not to offend anyone but it is still true. We are fearfully and wonderfully made and God knows exactly what is best for us, for our bodies and our spirits. Ms. Kerr’s best suggestion was to tell people to use condoms and get tested. We are living so far beneath our privilege. God never gives us a RULE without a REASON or a COMMAND just to CONTROL us and to spoil our fun. God never gives us a BOUNDARY unless it is to BLESS and BENEFIT US.
“No one who justifies premarital sex for those young or older, stable relationship or not, really dealt with the issue that was presented in this article on sexual exposure that when you have sex with someone you are having sex with ALL of the people that person has had sex with and that person has had sex with and so on.”
You’re wrong. I have seen no one deny that having more than one exclusive partner during one’s lifetime means a higher exposure to negative sexual consequences. It is possible to acknowledge this truth and still not have a problem with responsible adult sex outside of marriage. Not having any serious moral objections to sex before marriage does not mean we haven’t really dealt with the issue or that we are unable to grasp the concepts presented.
I’m getting more than a little sick of the attitude that any deviation from Christian views of sex = being uncaring, advocating free love and/or not “getting it.”
My point is not to offend anyone but it is still true. We are fearfully and wonderfully made and God knows exactly what is best for us, for our bodies and our spirits. Ms. Kerr’s best suggestion was to tell people to use condoms and get tested. We are living so far beneath our privilege. God never gives us a RULE without a REASON or a COMMAND just to CONTROL us and to spoil our fun. God never gives us a BOUNDARY unless it is to BLESS and BENEFIT US.
Posted by: Prolifer L at September 30, 2009 3:30 PM
I love these thoughts of yours. Beautifully said.
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I’m getting more than a little sick of the attitude that any deviation from Christian views of sex = being uncaring, advocating free love and/or not “getting it.”
Posted by: Janette at September 30, 2009 4:52 PM
As I told xalisae much earlier on this post, I respect your right to have your own views. Instead of taking the sum total of all of the differing views here and directing them at yourself, just take them for what they are – differing views. It’s really not a battle of “us” vs. “them”, IMHO. I don’t think the motive of anyone here is to brand the other with a scarlett letter (or the like). Thankfully, we are brought together here because of our support for the dignity of all life. That’s something we have in common, without which nothing else really matters.
Janette I will end my comments with, I have learned from all the different perspectives given on this topic. I was not saying justifying premarital sex makes someone uncaring and realize some people like you and others are not advocating free love but I still think premarital sex is unwise.
Janette, I really appreciate your comments especially because you at least acknowledge the truth of exposure to negative consequences coming from premarital sex and that the statement by Clare Kerr in the article is a medical fact. I know people are entitled to their opinion just as I am but I have seen more lives hurt and destroyed by premarital sex than I have ever seen helped by it including my own post-abortive family members.
Janet,
I appreciate your tolerance, but speaking in general terms regarding this thread, there has been quite an “us” vs. “them” mentality and some disrespect, which I believe was mostly pushed by those in the abstinence until marriage camp. I was not applying those things to myself personally, and I don’t find it problematic for me to express my opinion on the tone and results of the overall thread.
Prolifer L,
And I agree with you that premarital sex is unwise. But I also think that sometimes there are exceptions to that general rule, and I am not troubled by adults who say they are happy with their choices and took responsibility for their actions. I felt that, generally, the response to this sentiment (not necessarily yours in particular, but somewhat reinforcing my opinion about this thread) was overly harsh and at times judgemental.
Janette, I do see what you are saying but I want you to think about a few points I had not thought about until now. First of all I am so happy to have you and others who are not people of faith or people who consider themselves agnostics be prolife. It is a great testament to the truth of our movement, that abortion is wrong, no unborn child deserves to be given a death sentence especially in his own mother’s womb unless that mother’s life is jeopardy. I am so glad we are able to come to Jill’s blog and have this discussion. However when people come to a pro-life blog site that is created by a Chistian prolifer (Jill Stanek) that is a leader in the prolife movement of which the vast majority of supporters are Christians that are people of strong faith I think that you would be hard pressed to find a lot of agreement that premarital sex is ok under the “right circumstances”. Also consider the fact that the so-called “need” for abortion is “birthed” out of the exercise of rampant promiscuous, premarital sexual intercourse in our country (to the tune of 48 million babies aborted since Roe vs. Wade). Consider also that abortion is the darling of the “free love” movement and the immoral wing of the feminist movement (I know that there are prolife feminist). When people try to justify how great or even how inconsequential premarital sex is to them and their friends we don’t buy it because those of us who have worked in the prolife movement and worked in healthcare deal with women who have suffered the terrible consequences of their premarital sexual choices (heartbreak, depressoion, suicidal tendencies, over 25 different STDs, infertility, teen pregnancy, fatherless children, post-abortion trauma, women being battered to force them to abort and the final result of our premarital sexual freedom has led to 48 million mutilated unborn babies). If some people have had a different experience I would say they are in the minority. My heart breaks for my nation and our world. May God forgive us for destroying sex for what it was meant to be and for destroying babies because we don’t understand how special we and babies are.