Abortion, very funny
Last week liberal bloggers, paranoid that their mouthpieces were getting mushmouth, complained (like here, here, and here) MSM didn’t give enough attention to the Austin abortion mill bombing that never happened.
This week a liberal is complaining that MSM isn’t amenable to pro-abortion cartoons lately either:
Editorial artists who dare to draw cartoons and comics espousing abortion rights can face difficulty getting published. The disturbing track record offers more evidence of a rightward lurch by the U.S. media. The shift became apparent after Republicans won Congress in 1994. The boot-licking increased when George W. Bush took office and it only intensified after the September 11 terrorist attacks. Whether recent Democratic victories significantly embolden the mainstream press remains to be seen.
M.G. Lord, formerly editorial cartoonist at Newsday, is not optimistic. She recalls that editors at the New York paper discouraged her from addressing religious issues, including abortion, which, she admits, is “so complicated that it does not lend itself to simple graphic messages.”
Sorry, Ms. Lord. Untrue. There are indeed simple graphic messages that uncomplicate abortion real fast. They’re just not funny.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
But you put cartoons on your website?
Oh, That’s the video ‘The Choice Blues’ There is no denying the violence of abortion.
Looks like fingers,faces and intestines to me. Nope, no blood clot.
Pro abortion cartoons must be really tacky!
Jill,
A couple weeks ago I was on one of these feminist/leftie blogs and I showed them links to some abortion photos. After they looked at them, they came back with a bunch of cruel/heartless remarks. They we’re even making jokes about the photos.
I just couldn’t believe that some people could react that way. I truly believe now that there are evil people in the world and most of them tend to be Wiccans and atheists, as they admitted this to me.
jasper,same here. I went to a Choice site once. These people were so cruel and heartless it was unreal! I was sick over it. Most of the Choice sites have very strict security on them. You must leave all of your info before you post. If you disagree with their Choice views, they will delete you.
I was stroking the back of my 1 1/2 week old daughter’s head yesterday. It is so soft. She kind of looked at me after I did it.She sort of smiled. I thought about the PBA procedure for a moment. I almost threw up! The thought of anyone poking a child’s soft head with scissors. UUUUUUGGGHHH! God help us all.That baby has got to feel pain!
I truly believe now that there are evil people in the world and most of them tend to be Wiccans and atheists, as they admitted this to me.
Jasper, congradulations: you win the award for most ignorant comment made on this blog thus far today.
Jasper, out of respect for Jill, I will address your comment no further than to say this; the Church of Satan even denounces violent behavior that imposes on the comfort of others. Also, my father is an atheist and is absolutely one of the best people I have ever had the privilege of knowing.
As for the actual article, I am ecstatic that pro-abortion humor is met with even any hostility from the media. It should be viewed as a serious matter by those on both sides of the fence, and people who can make light of this situation are clearly neither knowledgable nor respectful of those to whom this is a personal topic.
The last baby on that video is so beautiful. Did you see his face? Didn’t look like an abnormally formed baby or anything like that either. Not that it would change anything. I just can’t understand how one can become so desensitized to seeing that, that they could just kill it and wrap it up to throw away like it is garbage. How can they do it? How does it not make them sick?
Most of the Choice sites have very strict security on them. You must leave all of your info before you post. If you disagree with their Choice views, they will delete you.
Kind of like how you have to post your email address and name here, and even then Jill will delete your posts if you denounce her, or “blaspheme God,” but will let you guys insult us?
Uh, this site doesn’t delete anyone simply for disagreeing, Less. Dissenting opinion is welcomed here. It’s only when it gets nasty that it is deleted.
By the way, what do you think about that video? Doesn’t it sicken you?
Bethany, I’ve seen it before. I’m still pro-choice.
I also seem to remember from my lurking days a certain article where it was allegedly implied that Jill was for the abortion of Muslim children. I don’t believe that ever got resolved, did it, as opinions kept being deleted…
Bethany, I’ve seen it before. I’m still pro-choice.
I also seem to remember from my lurking days a certain article where it was allegedly implied that Jill was for the abortion of Muslim children. I don’t believe that ever got resolved, did it, as opinions kept being deleted…
Actually, I remember that, and she did answer. She said it was a ridiculous question, because being pro-life she doesn’t want ANYONE having abortions. It’s kind of a “duh” scenario.
By the way, I notice you dodged my question.
Saying that a question is ridiculous and spouting off rhetoric doesn’t an answer make, Bethany.
Disgusting? Sure, but I also find birth videos disgusting.
So you don’t think the word “anyone” covers Muslims?
And….apparently, life and death are equally disgusting to you.
Bethany, birth is not a pretty thing, no matter what the ultimate result is.
Did she specifically state: No, I do not want Muslims aborted? Seems to me that she did not, and that seems to be dodging the question to me.
Bethany, birth is not a pretty thing, no matter what the ultimate result is.
There is a great difference in a baby being killed and a baby being born. You know what kind of sickening I was talking about and you cannot tell me, truthfully, that looking at that video that you do not think it is disgusting that they do that to babies, unless you are just soulless.
A baby that is being born can be cleaned off, and will end up being beautiful and a blessing to it’s mother. A baby that is aborted will be broken and bloody, never cleaned off, and thrown in a biohazard dumpster or down a disposal drain. There is a huge difference in those two things! And you can’t tell me that looking at part one of this video (which I have linked to in another topic) doesn’t really make you cringe at what women have to endure through an abortion process as well as an unborn baby, unless you’re willfully blind.
Did she specifically state: No, I do not want Muslims aborted? Seems to me that she did not, and that seems to be dodging the question to me.
How is it dodging the question, Less? She said she did not want ANYONE aborted. Unless you do not believe Muslims are included in the word “ANYONE”, then it answers the question sufficiently. I’m sure if you ask her again, she can patronize you and explain again in childrens terms that “No I do not think that muslims should be aborting their children”. Duh, of course she doesn’t! Murder is murder, no matter who is committing the murder. And no matter who is being murdered. Muslim babies are not born Islamic terrorists. They are individual human beings, just like you and I are.
How hard is it, the first time you’re asked, to say no, that she didn’t mean to imply that, and that she doesn’t want Muslim children aborted? Instead, she insisted upon deleting posts and answering the question halfway. Wasn’t it you who said that people who have nothing to hide, hide nothing?
As the vast majority of abortions occur before a baby is fully formed, yes, there’s a vast difference: the difference being viability. Sure, it’s not plesant to watch, but neither is open heart surgery. I watched and have not changed my views: does that make me soulless?
Birth and abortion? No comparison whatsoever! Birth may be bloody, but afterwards you have a living baby. Abortion leaves body parts,and a dead baby. They tear those babies to shreds. As far as the Choice sites go, most of them won’t even post your comment until they review it. I wrote them a polite comment and told them that I was pro-life. They deleted my post. They wouldn’t even allow a debate.
For quite a time, Jill wouldn’t let you comment unless you signed up and she reviewed it as well.
Less, I’ve been here when posts were deleted, and every single time it’s been something nasty you guys posted. I’m sure that someone probably posted something very racist or vile.
I don’t see answering your question as hiding anything.
As the vast majority of abortions occur before a baby is fully formed, yes, there’s a vast difference: the difference being viability. Sure, it’s not plesant to watch, but neither is open heart surgery. I watched and have not changed my views: does that make me soulless?
Less, what did you think of the last baby on the video? Looks like a baby that could have survived outside the womb.
I watched and have not changed my views: does that make me soulless?
It makes you appear soulless, though I do believe you have a soul. Right now I believe it is hidden somewhere inside you. It’s been pushed down over the years.
I wish that your soul could come out and help you right now. I don’t know what happened in your past to make you harden so hard against things like this, but something had to have happened. Someone hurt you, someone had to, and I’m very sorry for that. I don’t know why people have to do things that hurt people like that. I can see the results in the words you post, and it just kills me. People should not be able to do things like that, to discourage you, to harden your heart, and to make you feel that life is so superficial. Seeing what it’s done to you, it had to be something horrible. It’s just so wrong. I’m so angry that people do this to other people.
I honestly think you would be in shock if one day you suddenly understood the horror of what you are defending.
For quite a time, Jill wouldn’t let you comment unless you signed up and she reviewed it as well.
Did she delete posts based on their simply being a dissenting point of view? No.
Bethany, nothing particularly horrible has happened in my past that I haven’t already gotten over. Life is a series of events, some fortuned, some less so: allowing them to have a hold over you is pointless, as you can always make it better later on. Holding on to past hurts would be pointless, it’s much better to forgive and move on, and look forward to all the good that will happen and absolutely surpass all the bad.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a woman controlling what goes on in her own body. It’s her body, her life, her choice. I’m not a scared little kid who’s had a horrible childhood and is okay with murder: it’s not that simple to explain. I’m a pretty normal, white, middle class female. I’ve had a pretty cushy life, when it comes right down to it, and I’m thankful for that. I simply refuse to be a slave to my womb, or force another woman to unwillingly undergo a pregnancy.
Oh yes! Even the most polite post is not posted on a Choice site. If you are against abortion, you aren’t getting on. Personally, I feel that Jill has put up with more than her fair share of abuse from pro-choicers. She’s even given out 2nd,3rd chances. Some of the posts were insulting and downright abusive.
Bethany, nothing particularly horrible has happened in my past that I haven’t already gotten over. Life is a series of events, some fortuned, some less so: allowing them to have a hold over you is pointless, as you can always make it better later on. Holding on to past hurts would be pointless, it’s much better to forgive and move on, and look forward to all the good that will happen and absolutely surpass all the bad.
All of that stuff is true, it is better to forgive and move on. Forgiving and moving on can’t happen though till you acknowledge the pain, grieve, and deal with it honestly. Pushing it down in your heart and trying to forget only works temporarily. Maybe I am wrong, but I still think that someone hurt you. I’m not talking necessarily about a family member, but maybe a friend that you were close with, or a boyfriend…someone out there hurt you, and this is the way you have dealt with it. Feelings like this don’t come from a perfectly happy, perfectly at peace soul..
I see absolutely nothing wrong with a woman controlling what goes on in her own body. It’s her body, her life, her choice. I’m not a scared little kid who’s had a horrible childhood and is okay with murder: it’s not that simple to explain. I’m a pretty normal, white, middle class female. I’ve had a pretty cushy life, when it comes right down to it, and I’m thankful for that. I simply refuse to be a slave to my womb, or force another woman to unwillingly undergo a pregnancy.
I am not calling you a child, Less. You don’t have to be a child to be emotionally scarred by someone’s actions. I think you are a very intelligent woman. But your words suggest hurt.
Why do pro choice sites always ask for $$$ ?
Dan runs a web site and his asks for donations for Planned Parenthood. Why? These women post their abortion stories and Dan wants donations. I clicked on his name.
Jasper, 3:27p, said: “After they looked at them, they came back with a bunch of cruel/heartless remarks. They we’re even making jokes about the photos.”
My experience on pro-abort sites is they can only speak gutter, and they spend their time disparaging pro-lifers rather than speaking about the topic intelligently. If they do broach the topic, they can only spout cliches.
They want donations for Planned Parenthood to be put towards low-cost gynecological care that Planned Parenthood’s provide.
Sounds like exploitation to me.Dan’s site allows women to share their stories about their abortions and heartache, and then he asks them for money…..Nice. *shakes head*
Less, 5:17p, asked: “Did she specifically state: No, I do not want Muslims aborted?”
Yes, I did. Not at first. When someone first accused me of such, I thought the comment so ridiculous as not worthy of response. Trolls piled on, though, so I finally did spell it out.
Less, 5:39p, said: “For quite a time, Jill wouldn’t let you comment unless you signed up and she reviewed it as well.”
That’s absolutely false, Less. I’ve never reviewed comments before posting. I don’t even know how to configure that. I do put the site in authentication mode every now and then, which means people have to declare who they are before signing on. I do that when trolling or spamming gets intense, or when I’m going to be away from my computer for awhile.
Heather4Life: It’s not his website. He doesn’t run it. And no, the site isn’t asking women who’ve had abortions for their money. It is a general request for donations from anybody who supports Planned Parenthood, not just those who have had abortions.
Jiminy Crickets.
again, that “slave to the womb” comment.
“Her body, her life, her CHOICE.”
again, it’s not a CHOICE, it’s a baby.
Less, do you believe that some lives are more important than others?
105th congress report
House of representatives
1st session
105-24
Partial Birth Abortion Ban act of 1997
I am going to post some information from this transcript. The reason that I am doing this is to prove the lies that pro-choice makes. Not only did these people lie, but they did it under oath and then were caught lying in cross examination. Everything about the legalization of abortion has been because of lies. Don’t believe that? Then go to the testimonies of Norma McCorvy and Sandra Cano – Row and Doe –
http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1553&wit_id=4394
http://judiciary.senate.gov/testimony.cfm?id=1553&wit_id=4393
Now for the truth:
Words from Brenda Shafer, an RN who witnessed a partial birth abortion:
“The baby’s body was moving. His little fingers were clasping together. He was kicking his feet. All the while his little head was still stuck inside. Dr. Haskell took a pair of scissors and inserted them into the back of the baby’s head. Then he opened the scissors up. Then he stuck the high-powered suction tube into the hole and sucked the baby’s brains out.
Next, Dr. Haskell delivered the baby’s head, cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta.2 ”
“Clearly, the only difference between the partial-birth abortion procedure and homicide is a mere three inches.”
*Professor Robert White, Director of the Division of Neurosurgery and Brain Research Laboratory at Case Western Reserve School of Medicine, stated, `The fetus within this time frame of gestation, 20 weeks and beyond, is fully capable of experiencing pain.’6
[Footnote] After specifically analyzing the partial-birth abortion procedure, Dr. White concluded, `Without question, all of this is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant subjected to such a surgical procedure.’7 *
*First, while it would seem useless to argue against legislation that bans a procedure that does not exist, opponents of H.R. 929 make just such a claim. They argue that the partial-birth abortion method does not exist. Second, they claim the method is used rarely and only in cases where the mother’s life is at stake or the fetus has severe abnormalities.
The first argument was based on the absence of the term partial-birth abortion in medical literature and the claim that the child aborted using the partial-birth method is already dead. However, the term partial-birth abortion is a legal term defined clearly in H.R. 929 as any `abortion in which the person performing the abortion partially vaginally delivers a living fetus before killing the fetus and completing the delivery.’8 *
*Opponents of H.R. 929 further argue that the partial-birth abortion procedure does not exist because it is only used to deliver babies who are already dead. This argument is nonsensical because partial-birth abortion by definition requires the partial delivery of a `living fetus.’12 *
*Even if this argument made sense, past statements of abortionists and eyewitness accounts directly contradict claims that the babies are dead before being pulled into the birth canal. Dr. Martin Haskell and Dr. James McMahon, two abortionists who have used the partial-birth abortion method, were interviewed by the American Medical News in 1993. These doctors `told the AMNews that the majority of fetuses aborted this way are alive until the end of the procedure.’13 *
*AMN. Let’s talk first about whether or not the fetus is dead beforehand.* * *
Haskell. No it’s not. No, it’s really not. A percentage are for various numbers of reasons. Some just because of the stress–intrauterine stress during, you know, the two days that the cervix is being dilated. Sometimes the membranes rupture and it takes a very small superficial infection to kill a fetus in utero when the membranes are broken. And so in my case, I would think probably about a third of those are definitely are [sic] dead before I actually start to remove the fetus. And probably the other two-thirds are not.16
In a Dayton News interview, Dr. Haskell referred to the scissors thrust that occurs after the baby’s entire body is delivered and only his head is still lodged within the cervix, as the act that kills the baby. He said, `When I do the instrumentation on the skull. it destroys the brain sufficiently so that even if it [the baby’s head] falls out at that point, it’s definitely not alive.17 *
{{personal note – these Dr’s tried to deny these statments. However the interviewers had tape recorded the interview. Their voices, their words.}}
*In a letter to the Honorable Charles T. Canady, Dr. James McMahon, an abortionist who used the partial-birth abortion method, wrote that large doses of analgesia killed the baby before the doctor begins delivery. He stated:
The fetus feels no pain through the entire series of procedures. This is because the mother is given narcotic analgesia at a dose based upon her weight. The narcotic is passed, via the placenta, directly into the fetal bloodstream. Due to the enormous weight difference, a medical coma is induced in the fetus. There is a neurological fetal demise. There is never a live birth.18*
{{Dr. Watson Bowes, an internationally recognized authority on maternal and fetal medicine and a professor of both obstetrics/gynecology and pediatrics at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill School of Medicine, provided proof that the above statement was incorrect}}
{{The NAF provided a “fact sheet” to claim that the fetus is not living by the time of delivery}}
{{Kate Michelman from NARAL also made claims that the baby was not alive at the time of delivery}}
*Dr. Mary Campbell of Planned Parenthood also circulated a `fact sheet’ titled, `H.R. 1833, Medical Questions and Answers,’ which includes this statement:
Q: When does the fetus die?
A: The fetus dies of an overdose of anesthesia given to the mother intravenously. A dose is calculated for the mother’s weight which is 50 to 100 times the weight of the fetus. The mother gets the anesthesia for each insertion of the dilators, twice a day. This induces brain death in a fetus in a matter of minutes. Fetal demise therefore occurs at the beginning of the procedure while the fetus is still in the womb.’23 *
*Dr. Norig Ellison, the president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists says this claim has `absolutely no basis in scientific fact.’24 *
*Dr. David Birnbach, the president-elect of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology, says it is `crazy’25
because `anesthesia does not kill an infant if you don’t kill the mother.’26 *
*Dr. Ellison expressed this concern, `I am deeply concerned * * * that widespread publicity * * * may cause pregnant women to delay necessary and perhaps life-saving medical procedures, totally unrelated to the birthing process, due to misinformation regarding the effect of anesthetics on the fetus.’28 *
{{Imagine that! Pro-choice was willing to put womens lives in danger with false informtion so they could have their way.}}
*At the hearing, Planned Parenthood staff distributed a letter from Dr. Mitchell Creinin, an obstetrician-gynecologist, that stated: `As a physician, I can assure you that there is no such thing as pain to a fetus; plain and simple, pain does not exist to a fetus. Any doctor who states otherwise is flat out lying and twisting medical data.’30 *
*Judiciary Committee Chairman Henry Hyde read this statement to four anesthesiologists, experts in pain management, who were testifying at the hearing. Dr. Norig Ellison, the president of the American Society of Anesthesiologists, responded, `I read that letter over there, and I find it inconceivable that any physician would make a–would attach his name to a letter like that.’31 *
*
*
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*
There is so much more to this….
Go here: http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/T?&report=hr024&dbname=105&
* Just wait…I have more…
http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/PARBLN.704.htm
As Dr. W. Martin Haskell, a noted proponent and practitioner of partial-birth abortions, describes his development of the procedure:
“D&Es [“dilation and evacuations,” i.e., live intrauterine fetal dismemberments], the procedure typically used for later abortions, have always been somewhat problematic because of the toughness and development of the fetal tissues. . . . I kept doing D&Es because that was what I was comfortable with, up until 24 weeks. But they were very tough. Sometimes it was a 45-minute operation. I noticed that some of the later D&Es were very, very easy. So I asked myself why can’t they all happen this way. You see the easy ones would have a foot length presentation, you’d reach up and grab the foot of the fetus, pull the fetus down and the head would hang up and then you would collapse the head and take it out. It was easy. At first, I would reach around trying to identify a lower extremity [i.e., a foot] blindly with the tip of my instrument. I’d get it right about 30-50 percent of the time. Then I said, ‘Well gee, if I just put the ultrasound up there I could see it all and I wouldn’t have to feel around for it.’ I did that and sure enough, I found it 99 percent of the time. Kind of serendipity.”
“According to the New York Times of November 6, 1995, prior to the Senate’s initial consideration of the bill:
“About 13,000 of the nation’s 1.5 million abortions a year are performed after 20 weeks’ gestation. And only two doctors [i.e., Haskell and McMahon], who perform a total of about 450 of these abortions a year, have said publicly that this method is the safest and best. So most discussion of the proposed ban has been based on the assumption that the method is rarely used, and only by a small number of doctors. But the National Abortion Federation, which represents several hundred abortion providers, says that more doctors have recently reported that they sometimes use the method, which they call ‘intact D&E [i.e., dilation and evacuation].’ And since the House vote, some gynecologists at prominent hospitals have acknowledged that they often use the method in late-term abortions. ‘Of course I use it, and I’ve taught it for the past 10 years,’ said a gynecologist at a New York teaching hospital, who spoke on condition of anonymity.”
Despite such indications, groups opposed to prohibiting partial-birth abortions, along with sympathetic press reports, persisted in claiming that partial-birth abortion is rare. For example, the New York Times (3/28/96) reported: “The number of procedures that meet the definition of partial birth abortion is very small, probably only 500 or 1,000 a year.” ”
{{500 – 1,000? When a doctor has been teaching the procedure for 10 years? }}
“As stated in the Bergen County, NJ, The Sunday Record (9/15/96): “Interviews with physicians who use the method reveal that in New Jersey alone, at least 1,500 partial-birth abortions are performed each year.” [emphasis added]
“Another [New York] metropolitan area doctor who works outside New Jersey said he does about 260 post-20-week abortions a year, of which half are by intact D&E. The doctor, who is also a professor at two prestigious teaching hospitals, said he had been teaching intact D&E since 1981, and he said he knows of two former students on Long Island and two in New York City who use the procedure.” [The Sunday Record, 9/15/96]
Based on these revelations, as well as the admission of abortion lobbyist Ron Fitzsimmons (for further details, see below, page 7, “The Ron Fitzsimmons Admission: ‘I Lied'”), it is now believed that the actual number of partial-birth abortions performed nationwide per year is at least in the range of 3,000 to 5,000, with only some 500 to 750 (approximately 15 percent) occurring in the third trimester. [Ron Fitzsimmons, ABC “Nightline,” February 26, 1997] ”
“abortion lobbyist Fitzsimmons admitted to the New York Times (2/26/97), in “the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus.” Likewise, in his 1993 interview with American Medical News, noted previously, Dr. Haskell had stated that with respect to his practice:
“I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective in that 20-24 week range. . . . In my particular case, probably 20 percent are for genetic reasons. And the other 80 percent are purely elective. . . .” ”
“This claim is roundly refuted by four specialists in OB/GYN and fetal medicine representing PHACT (Physicians’ Ad Hoc Coalition for Truth), a group of over 500 doctors, mostly specialists in OB/GYN, maternal and fetal medicine, and pediatrics, including former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop: “Contrary to what abortion activists would have us believe, partial-birth abortion is never medically indicated to protect a woman’s health or her fertility. In fact, the opposite is true: The procedure can pose a significant and immediate threat to both the pregnant woman’s health and fertility.” [“Partial-Birth Abortion Is Bad Medicine,” The Wall Street Journal, 9/19/96; original emphasis] ”
“”In an article in the American Medical News, to be published March 3, and an interview today, Mr. Fitzsimmons recalled the night in November 1995, when he appeared on ‘Nightline’ on ABC and ‘lied through my teeth’ when he said the procedure was used rarely and only on women whose lives were in danger or whose fetuses were damaged. * * *
“In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along, Mr. Fitzsimmons said. ‘The abortion-rights folks know it, the anti-abortion folks know it, and so, probably, does everyone else,” he said. . . . One of the facts of abortion, he said, is that women enter abortion clinics to kill their fetuses. ‘It is a form of killing,’ he said. ‘You’re ending a life.'” ”
LIES LIES and more LIES!
Imagine that…. Pro-choice only had lies in an attempt to keep PBA legal. I wonder what else they have been lying about all these years?
oh…wait…theres more!
“Bethany, birth is not a pretty thing, no matter what the ultimate result is.”
….and Less has the nerve to call me ignorant.
This one is my all time favorite!
Dr. Mary Campbell, medical director for Planned Parenthood, caught in so many lies. and in an attempt to cover those lies, she made the entire audience burst into laughter…
http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/Fetal_Pain/Norig%20Ellison%20v.%20Mary%20Campbell.pdf
After Dr. Ellison presented his prepared testimony, as shown above, the following exchange occurred among Senator Spence Abraham (R-Mi.); Dr. Mary Campbell, medical director of Planned Parenthood of Metropolitan Washington; and Dr. Ellison.
SEN. ABRAHAM [to Dr. Campbell]: Would you make the statement then that the fetus dies due to the anesthesia? Is that your position?
DR. CAMPBELL (Medical Director, Planned Parenthood of Metropolitan Washington): I think the fetus has no pain because of the anesthesia. I do not…
SEN. ABRAHAM: No, I’m asking you whether you think that’s what causes the fetus to die?
DR. CAMPBELL: I do not know what causes the fetus to die. The fetuses are dead when delivered.
SEN. ABRAHAM: Well, let me just direct you, if I could — I have here a fact sheet that indicates it was prepared by you which relates to the House legislation in which…
[Sen. Abraham was referring to “H.R. 1833, Medical Questions and Answers,” which contains the caption, “Fact Sheet Prepared by Mary Campbell, M.D.” This document was circulated to members of the House of Representatives in October, before HR1833 came to a vote in that house. This document contains the following passage:
“Q: When does the fetus die?
“A: The fetus dies of an overdose of anesthesia given to the mother intravenously. A dose is calculated for the mother’s weight which is 50 to 100 times the weight of the fetus. The mother gets the anesthesia for each insertion of the dilators, twice a day. This induces brain death in a fetus in a matter of minutes. Fetal demise therefore occurs at the beginning of the procedure while the fetus is still in the womb.”]
DR. CAMPBELL: I was quoting Dr. McMahon at that time. [EDITOR’S NOTE: There is no reference to Dr. McMahon anywhere in Dr. Campbell’s five-page fact sheet.] On thinking it over in more depth, I believe because there are no EEG studies available…
SEN. ABRAHAM: So you no longer adhere to the position that you say in here, “the fetus dies of an overdose of anesthesia given to the mother intravenously.” That is no longer your position?
DR. CAMPBELL: I believe that is true.
SEN. ABRAHAM: You believe that is true?
DR. CAMPBELL: I believe that is true.
SEN. ABRAHAM: Dr. Ellison, would you like to comment on that?
DR. ELLISON (President, American Society of Anesthesiologists): There is absolutely no basis in scientific fact for that statement. There is — I can present you a study in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 1989, by [names inaudible] et al, of 5,400 cases of women having surgery having general anesthesia or regional anesthesia in which the fetus did not suffer demise. I think the suggestion that the anesthesia given to the mother, be it regional or general, is going to cause brain death of the fetus is without basis of fact.
DR. CAMPBELL: I have not said brain death. I’m saying no spontaneous respirations, no movement.
SEN. ABRAHAM: Well, that’s what you are saying today, but in this fact sheet, which you prepared I believe fairly recently, it says, “The fetus dies”– there’s no qualifying regarding breathing or anything else– “of an overdose of anesthesia.” I mean, that is a very clear statement assertion.
DR. CAMPBELL: [Pause] I simplified that for Congress. [Outburst of laughter from audience.] I do not actually believe that you want a full discussion of when death occurs.
SEN. ABRAHAM: Well, we are forced to make those decisions, and I guess my question is that how many other things would you say in the fact sheet or in your statements today have been likewise simplified in this dramatic fashion?
DR. CAMPBELL: Since I have over 28 years of education and experience in medicine, I would say that is a great deal less and a great deal more simple than what I know.
SEN. ABRAHAM: Well, it seems to me that there’s a rather substantial disparity between what Dr. Ellison says and what you are both saying now and have certainly written here. I just am wondering how that bears on other comments that have been made.
Question to the pro-aborts:
How can you stand by something that is based on lies? This is not a woman’s right. This is a way to make people rich. And woman are just happily falling into place. Paying to take their consequence away.
This is so rediculous. Considering the intelligence I have seen from the pro-choice side on the blog, I just don’t understand how you can be so blind.
Let me also repeat:
If they can lie so easily about this, what else are they lying about?
Valerie: I read that testimony from the nurse and it make me sick to my stomach. I cannot imagine.
*made
It’s amazing how much they lie, how often they’re caught, and how their lies are still promoted and held onto as fact!
How can so many people be brainwashed? The only thin the abortion industry wants you for is money.
Colorado abortionist Warren Hern will tell you that he kills babies for a living. Yes, he calls the “feti” babies!
@Heather: Well duh they’re babies…what else would they be…fish?
Is that what you really think, Rae?
@Jill: I know fetuses are babies. I know they are human beings. It still doesn’t change my opinion, though I am personally against abortions beyond 12 weeks (especially so after viability) and those types of abortions should ONLY be done in the cases of severe fetal deformity (and I’m not talking spinal bifida or Down’s Syndrome…I’m talking about severe chromosomal abnormalities and things like harlequin fetus) or if the mother’s LIFE is in danger.
Anyway, my two cents.
Rae, thanks for the honest answer. Two questions:
1. If you agree they are human, why is it acceptable to you to kill human beings?
2. What changes between 83 days and 84 days?
It’s acceptable because not all killing is murder and a fetus/baby is violating the mother’s autonomy. Now if there was a way to remove a fetus/baby from the womb and put it either in another woman’s uterus (like they did on Star Trek:DS9…yes I am a geek) or into an artificial womb, I’d be all for it.
And there are differences between 83 and 84 days, a fetus grows rapidly (as you know) and many things change from day to day. However, I will admit that I don’t know the differences precisely as I’ve never taken an embryology class (though I hope to in the future) and then I’d be able to answer that question better.
Rae, thanks again. It sounds as if you consider the baby a criminal worthy of capital punishment. Do you believe in the death penalty for convicted murderers?
Also, all basic structures for all body systems are established by the beginning of the 8th week. All remaining time in the uterus is spent in growth and refinement of body tissues and organs.
So the only changes between 83 and 84 days would be the addition of body weight so slight it would be likely hard to trace.
(FYI, the last month babies gain the most – an ounce a day – to give you some idea.)
Rae,
Taking an embryology class sounds like a great idea.
I sense that you are a sweet and caring person, and once you see the “unbiased” evidence that such a class would give you, I wager you’ll be back here…on our side. I really feel that you have a HUGE heart, and that you just don’t trust it.
What are your friends like?
Whew…I’m tired…and warm, I hate packing, but I am soooo glad I finally get to move home, I honestly can’t stand the dorms. Blech.
So to answer questions:
@Jill: I think there is also rapid brain development late in development as well, correct? I’m not sure when 83-84 days is month-wise (I am soooo bad at math) but I do recall in my readings that I have looked at is that brain development is one of the last things to begin and mature (and what I mean by brain development is stuff like the cerebral cortex neural connections are beginning to form and the nerves of the nervous system are becoming myelinated.
But no, I don’t see a baby as a criminal worthy of capital punishment. As for the death penalty, I think it’s too easy and not exactly “eye for an eye” you know? I mean you can only kill the person once and if they killed 20 people you can’t kill the person 20 times to make up for those 20 lost lives. I think that criminals ought to be locked up in solitary confinement for life. No communication with others, no books, no TV, no “exercise”. Just them and their thoughts and they can sit there alone. Personally, I think being cut off from the world like that and being denied human contact is a much worse punishment than death.
@MK: What do you mean what are my friends like? That’s a very broad question, what are the specifics of what you want to know?
Rae,
I guess I meant what do they believe about this issue. You just seem so sensitive and I picture you with people like that. Your art is so awesome, you often stand up for the little guy, you said that sometimes you feel guilt just because you have a good life…all this tells me that you have a big heart and a great capacity for love and empathy.
I remember some of my friends from “back in the day” and I realize now that they weren’t really friends at all. They just wanted to hang around people that confirmed them.
When I “changed” they dumped me. At first that was really hard to handle but then I realized that they didn’t really care about me or they would have accepted me no matter what…see?
So I was wondering if your friends encourage you or discourage to develop that really wonderful soft side that you have.
Rae, actually you are accusing a baby of criminal activity, of “violating the mother’s autonomy,” which you say gives the mother the right to kill him/her. What other could you mean than criminal activity?
A pregnancy lasts 270 days. If you’re not sure why you chose the acceptable limit of killing at 83 days, why in the world are you advocating that?
Speaking of criminal activity…
Whatever happened to midnite…
She started an argument with me and then disappeared off the face of the earth.
Maybe I won?
mk
@Jill: I’m sorry, but I usually don’t count pregnancies in days, so I’m going to hazard a guess that 83-84 days is 12 weeks? I chose 12 weeks because most abortions are done before that point anyway and because I don’t really see it as anything to be honest. Yes, I realize that it is in fact a baby but it’s still highly underdeveloped, it’s nowhere near being fully grown or fully developed (yes the rudimentary organ systems are there, but they aren’t functioning at all or they aren’t fully functioning yet).
As for the bodily autonomy/criminality of a fetus/embryo/baby…I don’t think the mother has the right to “kill” it, I see it more as she has a right to remove the fetus/embryo/baby from her body if she so chooses. The fact that the baby doesn’t survive after its removal from the womb is unfortunate and if it could be prevented, I would be all for it.
@MK: On the issue of abortion, most of my friends really don’t talk about it. I am guessing that most of them are pro-choice with reservations but that’s just a guess, I honestly don’t know as the subject rarely comes up in our discussions (we’re usually too busy whining about college and drooling over Ewan McGregor or something. :D).
As for the whole encouraging/discouraging my soft side, heck my parents don’t even like it that much. They think I care TOO much about things and that I shouldn’t be so “nice” and kind, they keep saying I am too passive, a “doormat” so to speak and that I need to learn to stand up for myself. My friends think that I am like this too. My friend Lindsey is very opinionated and isn’t afraid to speak her mind, just like my friend/room mate Shannon. On the other hand, my friend Robyn is definitely more of a doormat like myself, though she is much less so than I am. I try too hard to please people because I’m afraid people won’t like me otherwise, so I always give in to what other people want. I give into what my parents want. I quit fighting because all fighting ever got me into was trouble and I decided it truly wasn’t worth it.
I’m not a very social person in real life, I have a hard time communicating with people verbally (I talk too fast, too quiet, I mumble and I can’t look somebody in the eye to save my life) and it’s just easier for me to voice my thoughts on-line for some reason.
I have a hard time connecting with people as I’ve always been the “odd one out” in my family and at school. My parents don’t understand me because I am “too smart” (same goes for the rest of my family), and the kids at school don’t understand me because I am not like everybody else (I don’t drink, smoke, do drugs, have sex, listen to crappy rap music etc…). I moved a LOT when I was a kid so I never really learned to make friends or keep friends for that matter. The fact that I’ve known Robyn and Lindsey for nearly 10 years now is a total accomplishment for me (though we weren’t close most of the time, we didn’t really become close friends till high school).
*shrugs*
Rae –
At 7 weeks gestation the babies Vestibular System begins to operate. This is the smallest but most sophisticated system of the central nervous system and the ONLY part that is functional at birth. It gets information from and sends information to all parts of the brain making it the most powerful system.
The central nervous system is working at 7 weeks. The baby only has this function fully intact at birth. How is it okay to murder the baby at 8,9,12 weeks if the CNS is working at 7 weeks.
Because a CNS does not mean the brain is functioning or anywhere near being fully developed. A 12 week old fetus/baby has no thoughts, no realization of what is going on…only reflexes. But I don’t think CNS development should be the sole reason to decide personhood, it’s an element for sure, but not the whole reason.
I am sure you’ll bring up something about comatose people and newborns because they too don’t have thought or self-realization, but the difference is a fetus/baby is solely dependent on the mother, it is not its own person, it is not an individual. A newborn or a comatose person is not directly relying on ONE person to give them what they need. A newborn can be given up for adoption to be cared for by somebody who voluntarily wants to care for it and a comatose person is “cared for” by the machines that keep them alive as well as the doctors and nurses who care for them.
This probably doesn’t make sense… >_
Rae, despite our differences I’m glad you’re here. You’re a very honest person. I think EVERYONE has an easier time talking online than in person.
You know Rae,
I have discovered that many people who appear to be doormats are actually extremely strong. It’s a quiet strength to be sure, but it is strength.
I was adopted. I am as strange as the day is long. (I know, you hadn’t noticed:). The family that adopted me is a straight and narrow as they come.
Just before my father “really” lost his mind (vascular dementia – much like alzheimers) he told me (over a beer of all things, in Ireland) that he never really like me as a kid. He apologized and said that he now realized that there was nothing wrong with me…there was something wrong with him. He said I was just so different and he didn’t know how to relate to me. This coming from a man who had probably spoken 50 real words to me in his entire life. He loved me. I have no doubt about that. But he just didn’t “get” me. I loved him so much for admitting that. Because it meant that I wasn’t “bad” or “broken”…he validated me that night. He hasn’t spoken a word in 7 years and we have to change his diapers now, but I feel closer to him than I have ever felt before. Because he loved me enough to admit that he had made a mistake.
As you know my life is completely different now that I have come back to the church, and oddly enough I am now more than ever like the girl he “always wanted” and he doesn’t get to see it.
I rebelled so much in my teen years because I just wanted to be UNDERSTOOD! I don’t care if you don’t like me, as long as you UNDERSTAND ME! You know?
Understand, I was never abused or neglected or treated badly in any way. If anything I was overprotected and OVERloved, if that’s possible. But I was MISUNDERSTOOD.
I have since found my birth parents, and WOW, is everything clear to me now. “MOM” has been diagnosed with Bi-polar, histrionic personality disorder, anti-social personality disorder, ADHD, OCD, and who knows what else. Nobody in the family will have anything to do with her. My “brother” is in jail for pedophilia (In Minnesota) and my father is dead from liver disease caused from alcoholism.
My point is, don’t worry if you don’t fit today. You’ll fit eventually. I think you sound amazing. And I can hear you loud and clear. Hold your head up babe. You’re perfect just the way you are.
Of course if you were Catholic again…just teasin’
mk
Rae,
I am sure you’ll bring up something about comatose people and newborns because they too don’t have thought or self-realization, but the difference is a fetus/baby is solely dependent on the mother
And doesn’t that make it all the more imperative that the mother meets that total trust. This child IS depending on the mother. For everything.
What kind of person would take advantage of that.
There is a bond there that is so sacred, so total, that it MUST be honored. Otherwise, we are just animals.
Count me in as a door mat too! I have been walked over all my life for this. I also find it easier to talk online than in real life. Well, I can talk but just not “open up” like I can on the internet. Besides to my husband anyway. :) Funny how that works.
And doesn’t that make it all the more imperative that the mother meets that total trust. This child IS depending on the mother. For everything.
What kind of person would take advantage of that.
There is a bond there that is so sacred, so total, that it MUST be honored. Otherwise, we are just animals.
Amen to that, Mary Kay…that is exactly how I feel.
@MK: I was never particularly rebellious…the most “rebel-rebel” thing I’ve ever done was get my nose pierced and two tattoos (a strand of DNA around my ankle and a henna-style flower on my back). I didn’t want to be too rebellious because all I ever wanted was acceptance. Sure I would disagree and let people know it and I was never blindly obedient, I just learned to pick my battles better. :-p
I had never gotten along very well with my maternal grandmother, we never really saw eye to eye and I always felt I disappointed her because I wasn’t like my mom. You see…I look almost exactly like my mom did at my age (actually, I’ve just looked like my mom my whole entire life)and you know, since we looked alike…why didn’t we act alike? My mom was very good at basketball growing up and was always playing sports at some point in the year, where as I hated sports and preferred to read or draw.
My grandma always talked about my cousins and how good they were at sports and how they always saw them and whatnot and it always appeared to me that she didn’t love me or was ashamed that she got stuck with such a disappointing granddaughter. She would always go to my cousin’s sports games yet she and my grandfather would never come see me in my plays or come to my choir concerts. They always used the excuse that we lived too far (we lived in Minnesota most of the time when these events were going on…it’s only an 8 hour drive…they could show up) when they would be willing to drive to Rapid City to go see my cousin play basketball. This always made my mom angry that they would do this.
So one day when I was living in Aberdeen, SD and my grandparents were staying with us because my parents were in Minnesota looking for a house (we were moving back…) I finally asked her why she didn’t like me. And she said that she loved me, but didn’t understand me, she said she couldn’t talk to me because I always talked over her head, using terms that she didn’t understand or talking about subjects that she either wasn’t interested in or didn’t know enough about. She said I was nothing like my mom, even though we look so much alike and she just had a hard time with that.
My mom is the same way. We were never close (still aren’t close) and the reason is because I apparently intimidate her. She hated the fact that I had such ease with school when she didn’t. She didn’t like the fact that I am not a very “girly-girl” and that I have “unusual interests” (I used to be a HUGE fan of Japanese anime and stuff), and that I wasn’t her clone. She had a hard time with that (still does). She says she’s proud of me and that she does love me, but she’s always critiquing me, every time I go home to visit she nags me about something I do wrong or not the way she likes. She is always making comments about my weight, how I do my hair, how I don’t wear make-up. My dad is also always making comments about my attitude and the fact I don’t wear make up as well. They tell me time and time again that they never knew what to do with me or how to act around me because apparently I’m just some big ol’ enigma. I dunno, it’s very frustrating.
Rae,
Man do I know what you mean. I was into acting and art and reading myself. I just suffered a “sport injury” 2 days ago. Which is hysterical, because I have never played a sport in my life. (my dog pulled me really hard and I have a torn ACL ligament).
I’ll never forget the time my mother made me take typing so that I always had something to “fall back on”…And while I’m glad I did now, (only because it makes the computer easier) I never used it in “real” life.
But looking back, my parents were trying to do the best they could within the parameters of their own lives. They are simple people. Good, unquestioning, giving, but not really deep.
My favorite words as a child were “Let’s pretend”.
My mother couldn’t pretend to save her soul, except when it comes to denial. Oh that I had enough money to get there…She refuses to see anything that might rock her world, and when she is forced to then she worries herself sick.
For all my pretending, I was never able to pretend away reality. I see what’s there and deal with it head on.
But I know this. My parents love me. Deeply. Completely. Fully. And though they weren’t always able to express it in the ways that I needed they expressed it in the language that they knew.
You’re parents probably care soo much about you. And love you deeply also. But they worry. And they don’t know how to do it “right” because they don’t know how to see through your eyes. Maybe it’s time for you to do your share. Maybe you can help them wear your glasses a little at a time. Try on theirs also. See things the way they do. You might be surprised by the depth of their love and they might be surprised to find out they have nothing to worry about and everything to celebrate.
Anytime you need to vent, or talk or anything at all, I’m here. You can ask Jill for my email if you want. I’m rootin’ for ya. I have all the faith in the world in you. You’re made of good stuff.
mk
Rae –
I agree with MK. Anytime you need to talk, just ask Jill for my e-mail as well.
I understand totally about not being understood. My family calls me “The Jinx” because of all the trouble I always get myself into. Nothing big, or criminal, just strange.
My parents had no idea what to do with me in High School. I am the youngest of 3 daughters and my two sisters are straight A extrememly popular women whom everyone likes. I am the exact opposite! I struggled for C’s and no one liked me in high school. I was strange, I admit it, but I refused to conform just because “they” wanted me to. I loved horror movies! Halloween, Friday the 13th, Nightmare on Elm Street (hey – Johnny Depp was in that!). My Mom thought I was demented. I Loved Star Trek and went to conventions. I loved to read, and would absorb myself into books and not even notice a world around me. My Dad still has no idea what to do with me. Since Mom died we have really struggled to maintain a relationship. But I know he loves me and I love him.
I am also a doormat. I had one “friend” who sold all my belongings when I was sick and in the hospital. She needed money to buy her boyfriend drugs. She even tried to sell my car! Another “friend” put my name on an apartment application with all my information and then got evicted. I didn’t know anything about it until the apartment complex tried to put a judgment on my credit. I am not trusting of people who are in a position to hurt me anymore. My husband has been very patient about that.
Hey – The no make up thing. I wish I had never started wearing make up! My Mom never wore make up and when she died she looked like she was around 40 years old (the doctors description) and she was over 60!
I look just like my Mom too. It was so strange at her funeral. People kept staring at me. Then her sister walked in and everyone did a double take. All 3 of us look exactly alike. Personality wise I am more like my Aunt then anyone else. I have always talked to her more than my immediate family.
Life is strange. I am strange. And I wouldn’t have it any other way! I just feel sorry for my kids. They have to deal with the strangest Mom on the block!
At least you all found husbands! I don’t think I will ever get married, I have such a bad time with relationships. I don’t think I have had a boyfriend for longer than 2 months.
I like Al. You two make a cute couple.
It woudl totally be weird if we were to become romantically invovled. We have discussed it and how awkward it would be. We are just very close friends.
Speaking of which..9 days until New York…
Rae, I was directing that comment to the pro-choice people that claim it isn’t a baby. The abortionist himself calls them babies. So your statement should have been directed at the pro-choice crowd. They have me confused. One second it’s a feti and you say it’s a baby.Warren Hern says it’s a baby. Which is it? *head spins*
PIP, Have fun in New York!!!!
PIP –
I didn’t meet my husband until I was 29. Be patient. And Love will find you. I promise!
It woudl totally be weird if we were to become romantically invovled. We have discussed it and how awkward it would be. We are just very close friends.
Speaking of which..9 days until New York…
My husband and I were like that for about a year before I got romantically involved with him. I didn’t know it, but the entire time we were just hanging out and having fun together, that James was in love with me. The whole time, I just thought of him as my best friend, never considered him romantically. It’s weird, because after a year I started to think of him that way, and I thought if I told him, he’d stop being friends with me…so I didn’t tell him for a long time…then one day, I got the courage to write him a letter. Once he saw the letter, he brought me a letter that he had written me, never intending to send to me, about 6 months prior to my letter. It said that he was in love with me, but that he did not want to ruin our friendship by telling me….he was afraid of the same thing I had been! After we found out we were both feeling the same way, we decided we would get married…. We had to wait 2 years though because my parents wouldn’t let me do it sooner than that…I was married the day after my 18th birthday.
I wanted to add…I have this little sign framed and hanging in the house…it says, “Happiness is being married to your best friend.”
(By the way, I’m not implying that you two should be romantically involved…you just reminded me of how my husband and I fell in love and I wanted to share).
Awww Bethany, that is adorable!!
Valerie, I’m trying to be patient. It just sucks :/
Heather, Thank you! When I get back I’ll post pictures on my blog so you all can check it out.
Cool!
Take lots of pic PIP! I’ve never been to NY.
Be patient. It is worth it.
Bethany – I had a friend like that. I was head over heals in love with him. I’m glad I never told him though considering he ended up coming out of the closet. He ended up dating a guy I had dated. It was very weird. In my early twenties I seemed to be attracted to gay men. Maybe that is why it took me so long to get married? ;-)
Valerie, The same thing happened to me.
My prom date later came out.
I wondered why he didn’t kiss me… :)
He’s dead now…. :(
I want to know why you guys date em and the next thing you know they’re gay…not pointin’ any fingers, but what did you do to them?
I think the reason girls tend to be attracted to men who turn out to be gay is because they aren’t like other boys…they are usually much more polite (in my experience) and they actually care about what you have to say. They like to talk to you and hang out with you, rather than straight boys who apparently only want in your pants.
These are just my observations. :D
MK, LOL. This guy was really sensitive and charming. I have never liked “Pretty boys” The guy was a musician. He was great at giving fashion tips, and he did my hair a few times. Now he’s somewhere in Las Vegas wearing a dress. *shrugs shoulders*
Yes, for awhile I took personal responsibility for my negative power over men that made them turn gay… :)
I agree with Rae. As much as I believe homosexuality is wrong, I enjoy gay men. It is actually a compliment to women that they like being like women. They like what we like. We enjoy the same topics of conversation.
And when I was a waitress, they were the best tippers.
Jill,likewise. My hairdresser is gay, and every time I see him, I know we are gonna laugh.
I have an idea; how about people who don’t agree with abortions, don’t get them. How about people who who agree with them, get them. And quit preaching at each other?
this is not funny at all.being a maldivian,this is a heartacke to me. please dont display these kind of videos.god wil curse for the people who did this! i hope allah wil pay for these murderes