More responses to WND column
As promised, although a couple days late, see more letters on my latest WND column, “Sioux tribe plans to scalp its own,” on page 2.
Required reading
A great fighter for the unborn in northeast South Dakota sent me your column lambasting the idiotic notion of starting abortion clinics on the Pine Ridge Reservation.
First off, it was well written and should be required reading in our schools. Please don’t hold your breath though, as we need you to breathe more life into our cause.
I am a freelance writer who had (for five years) the Monday editorial column in the Aberdeen American News, which is part of the recently sold Knight Ridder chain of newspapers. It was very liberal and eventually wore me down by continuously censoring columns against abortion and the culture war our once great nation is embroiled in.
What a thrill it was to read your attack on a previously protected “Sacred Cow” of American culture. I grew up watching the liberals destroy what little remained of the Sioux Nation.
Let me sign of with my thanks for your dedication, wit and voice.
Paul Jackson
As arrogant and conceited as Custer
In 1876 the Oglala, along with other bands of Lakota, and the Cheyenne, were victorious in the Battle of the Little Bighorn because General George Armstrong Custer was an arrogant, conceited, narrow minded dandy. After the
battle, the women of the Cheyenne encampment made their way around the dead soldiers and pierced their ears with sewing awls to help them here better in the next life.
It is rather apt that you use Custer in your diatribe, as you show the same level of arrogance and conceipt. If those women only knew how many more of your kind would not be able to hear.
Indians are living the American nightmare, as bestowed upon them by their colonizors. A whole segment of the population of the country a living, breathing, post traumatic stress entity.
You don’t live in the real world, lady, and your article is pretty disgusting in it’s references to a people who have suffered more crap than you could ever imagine. They have the right to choose. You don’t have the right to impose your ideals on anyone but your own.
Redwood 3110
The Indian way?
I would llike to commend you on your fine article on the prospect of abortion clinics to be opened on the Pine Ridge Indian Reservation. I know you had many more talking points to write about, but space was limited.
Several years ago, I visited with an Indian (now deceased) from the Cheyenne River Sioux Reservation, Eagle Butte, SD. He told me Indians are against abortion, “it is not the Indian way,” because the children are great gifts and are their legacy, to carry on their traditions.
Now that they are killing their potential leaders, elders, and educators, who is to carry it on? In many cases the Indians do not want white people to adopt the children for fear they will loose their identy, their traditions and ancestory. They will not need the whites to kill them all off. They are doing that themselves. Ms. Fire Thunder must not believe in “the Indian way.”
Thank you for your interest and keep up your good work.
Linda Velder
Horribly racist
I read your column today and was so hurt mere words cannot express the pain you caused me as an Indian person. I am personally opposed to abortion, but do suppport women who want to be free to make their own
choices. Including the choice to write the horribly racist column you published today.
Every stereotype that I work to get rid of, you used in your column. You should know that I have been Indian for all of my 54 years and have never met a single Indian woman who wants to have an abortion. But the majority of those Indian women would support a woman’s right to choose.
You are so filled with hate that it spills over into your column. Even when you try to be supportive of Indian people, you end up spewing your racism over into a people who would go out of their way to help you.
Please, stop trying to help Indians and crawl back into your hate filled world and leave us alone.
Johnny P. Flynn PhD
ndeh nishnabe podwewadmi ewi chigwe dodem (my tribe and clan)
Native American killer angel
Sounds like the “Killer Angel” Margaret Sanger’s eugenics strategy–sell the leadership on abortion for a group marked for genocide.
John Russell
Still captive
Thank you for your column. I think I see some logic in the Indian Chief’s flaw. The Indian Chief may think that since something makes conservatives angry, it must be good. Maybe the Indian Chief is a captive to left leaning political
correctness.
Neil Black
Long-term prospects reassuring
As a Christian and church youth leader and Sunday school teacher for the past 14 years, I am totally dismayed at the direction our society is heading. We live in a post-Christian society where paganism is on the rise. While we must fight the good fight no matter what, I believe that things will get much worse before they get better. They probably won’t get better until Jesus returns (maybe soon).
If this ‘chief’ in South Dakota and the rest of her pro-murder ilk stayed to themselves and were left to their own devices, they would eventually die out from gross stupidity and self annihilation. Unfortunately for us, they have two things in their favor in the short term: all people are born sinners, and abortionists are evangelical with their murderous doctrines. Of course, we have God and His Word on our side, so I kind of like our situation long term, don’t you?
Henry Frickel
Watch your own scalp
I read your column on the Oglala Sioux issue with horror. I am pro-life, but I also live here on the
reservation. I have never read, in contemporary times, a more ignorant, racist, or altogether vicious
editorial. You should be ashamed of yourself. You managed to include nearly every single stereotype
against Native people.
I will never again support pro-life issues, either financially or by word of mouth. It is a shame that the democracy of the internet gave ignorant bloggers like you the ability to bring your worthless opinions to a wider audience.
You are no political commentator. You are just a white trash bitch with a big mouth. And you had better stay
far away from Pine Ridge, or I know plenty of people who will personally make sure that your bloody scalp
is ripped from your ugly head.
Peter Hill
What if my adopted had been aborted?
I am the adoptive mother of 5 (in the middle of adopting number 6) children in South Dakota. I cried the whole way through your article on the possible abortion clinic on Pine Ridge reservation. Three of my children are from Pine Ridge reservation originally. I think of what gifts they are and what could have happened if abortion was more readily available to their mothers at the time.
I have been a foster mom for over 5 years and fostered 55 children many of them Native American and all with handicaps. They are all amazing and ALL deserved life.
I stood outside in the cold at our Pro-Life Rally here in Rapid City and watched as we absolutely outnumbered the pro-choicers (many of whom had to be flown in from outside South Dakota). I watched as people yelled that we could stand there and judge but where were we when they had to take care of their burdens? Well I am right here and since I do not ever view a child as a burden, no matter their handicap, those people can call me up anytime.
My husband is part Native American and he is shocked at this whole debate on the reservation. In tradition a child’s life was sacred, as was all family and if people were still walking in the traditional way there would be no crime against a family member.
I just thank you for your words of wisdom and for fighting for those who cannot fight for themselves.
Nora Boesem
Who’s the savage?
Shame on you. Racism is learned. I am Lakota and your scalping statement is not acceptable. You are branded now as a racist. Use common sense, after all, you are civilized are you not? And you called us the savage.
SRHA
Wrong focus on plight
It seems the Tribe has been convinced that victimization justifies more victimization.
Perhaps if the Tribe will come out with their underlying argument….we are so poor we can’t afford more babies…and the clinic will be a revenue source (will it?), perhaps some attention to their poverty plight could turn this situation around. This publicity could help the Tribe out in the long run.
Margaret
Judge not
The Sioux “massacred” Custer? He attacked the Sioux on THEIR land in the hopes of stealing their land and gold. In response, the US government attacked over 300 unarmed, mostly women and children, and called it “The Battle of Wounded Knee.” Our government still carries a victory flag in the Color Guard for killing these starving women and children! Get your facts straight!
I worked at Christ Hospital for a total of 13 years – 10 in pediatrics, 3 in administration.
I’m willing to bet you have NEVER sat down and listened to the individual stories of the women who CHOSE this procedure, as I have.
I’m willing to bet you have NEVER been forced at a very young age to give birth to your father’s or grandfather’s baby.
I’m willing to bet you have NEVER been forced to carry and give birth to a child with only a brainstem for a head.
I’m willing to bet you have NEVER been forced to give away your child to strangers because you can’t even afford to feed herself.
I’m willing to bet you have NEVER been forced to give up your dreams of furthering your education and providing for the family you already have because you took antibiotics while on birth control pills.
My ex-husband wanted me to have an abortion – I’m very much pro-choice. He was really surprised when I chose to abort him instead. I weighed the pros and cons and decided I could do it without his support. As a result, we’ve maintained a good relationship. He may not have supported my son financially or emotionally back then, but he’s an ex-Navy man and fully supports my son now – when my son needs all the support he can get, and they’ve resolved their issues.
There has NEVER been a day that I’ve regretted my decision, but it could have turned out differently. If I had been forced to have my baby, it’s possible I would have resented him or given him away for adoption – leaving me to wonder about the welfare of my child the rest of my life.
My best friend became pregnant by surprise. She was in Stage 4 of Hodgkin’s disease and told she was sterile after all the radiation/chemo – told not to take birth control pills.
The Catholic hospital (Mercy) discovered her pregnancy during a scan, told her to have an abortion because it threatened her life, then dumped her out on the street because they don’t perform abortions.
I found a facility for her to have the procedure performed. She cried all the way there because she had always wanted to be a mother, but knew her life was in danger.
We arrived at the facility to find a bunch of protesters calling us murderers and trying to prevent us from entering the building. My friend broke down completely, so we turned around and headed back to my car. The protestors cheered with joy at their so-called “victory.”
But she still needed the procedure, so I talked with an OB/Gyn doc I knew at Christ hospital. He understood and agreed to perform the procedure.
On the day of the procedure, she was kept waiting in the hall for HOURS. Support staff would pass by and my friend overheard them saying she was just another “public aid case looking for an abortion” and giving her looks as if she were a slut. They didn’t know the man she slept with desperately wanted to marry her and keep her alive. They didn’t realize she was on public aid because she was suffering from CANCER.
At the time, they told her she was in remission with her Hodgkin’s disease – but she died 4 months later. I blame the “right-to-lifers” for this because she lost her fighting spirit after this event. They had NO RIGHT to judge my friend!
Kathy Miranda
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
yipe ……….
this is a big (as in HUGE problem). The folks who cry ‘woe to me’ are correct … but one has to ask is being poor, sick, tred-upon, villified etc., etc. worse than being alive? Does such give me a strange form of expertise so that I am able to judge the worthiness of a pre-born child to continue to live [Oh, we all know he/she is an alive human.]? Can I then (because I do have this all) rightly self-justify my actions? What I’ve read is: ‘I am so removed from life that if I choose death … that’s OK.’
Some may wish my words to be plain here: I am hearing… because I am Indian … I know reality and if I want to kill babies that’s OK … especially when this will end a nightmare. Never, is this considered an exchange of one nightmare for another (even worse) nightmare. If YOU explain to any Mom … that her child has died … and now you want us to believe that a woman can kill her child … especially a disabled one … with no ensuing problem?
Give me a break, eh?
The ‘problem’ here and in other places is NOT about morality … but biology. A pregnant mother goes through definite periods of depression during pregnancy (and immediately post-partem). Coincidentally these periods exacty match the use of zinc for the developing child. The vast majority of decisions-to-abort are exactly in the middle of these depression-periods.
Why are we then fighting one another? Do we not all wish a full … healthy life? I may be wrong but, I must presume that babies wish this too. [Strange as it seems … the anencephally (no brain) cited; as well as the cancer are both very much zinc deficiency related as is the alcoholism … the incest … etc.].
Every stereotype that I work to get rid of, you used in your column. You should know that I have been Indian for all of my 54 years and have never met a single Indian woman who wants to have an abortion. But the majority of those Indian women would support a woman’s right to choose.
That is an interesting, and in my opinion a very telling statement. Maybe Indian women don’t want to abort their children, and this particular abortion clinic is for the “benefit” of “paleface women” to get rid of their white children.
And they call you racist.
Jill Stanek, you and all those who share your ideas and beliefs are not compassionate human beings. You are all riding an imaginary moral high horse of your own creation. You and all those like you have lost the ability to empathize. It is not surprising given your secluded and close minded nature. You lack insight and the ability to make full arguments. Maybe studying something besides nursing (and a perverted form of Christianity) would have helped you structure sound arguments.
You are probably the type of person who celebrates the fire bombing of clinics and the murder of doctors.
You are not a woman of G-d, you are a hate monger.
Here’s some homework for you: Find a list of logical fallacies and try not to fall into them. Good luck, if your past writing is any indication, you will have a tough time with it.
Paul Jackson thinks Jill Stanek is a “good writer”? Indeed, sentences like the following are absolutely brilliant:
“Stupid is blaming the white man for annihilating a large portion of one’s people while boxing up the rest and then inviting the white man into the box to annihilate more of one’s people.”
Not bulky and confusing at all!
By the way, Linda Velder…
I am an “Indian” from the Pine Ridge Reservation, raised in our traditionalist culture. My step-father is a very powerful and knowledgeable medicine man. I can tell you that beliefs vary from tribe to tribe, and person to person. However, the fact remains that the Lakota (or “Sioux”) people had abortion medicines since before Columbus was born.
Now, what were you saying?
I’m sorry, but the Oglalas ARE Pro-Life. They have a saying “All Children are Sacred”, and Cecelia and Tim Giago are on the fringes. There are 3 reasons why there will never be a Planned Parenthood on the Reservation:
FireThunder and Giago are more loyal to the Democratic party than they are to their own Lakota way of life, but they are on the fringe. Those who practice the Lakota Way do NOT stand with Cecelia.
If you are interested in assisting the Oglalas with their Pro-Life voice, I would recommend doing an article in support of Bruce Whalen who is a Pro-Life Lakota running against Stephanie Herseth this year for a seat in the House of Representatives. If you contact me, I would be happy to give you his contact information.
In any case, I do think your article refering to Tim Giago in the derogatory term “chief”, and accusing the Oglalas (Who were protecting their women and children) of massacring Custer and his men when Custer attacked the Indians after having been warned repeatedly to leave them alone had very clear racist tones to it. The Oglalas are FAR more Pro-Life than mainstream America, and it does nothing for our cause to insult their whole tribe over what a couple of pseudo-Indian idiots did in order to gain a political name for themselves.
Rose.
Having the knowledge of what certain medicines are capable of doing is not the same as USING those medicines for that purpose. Oglala women always knew the right time to have a child and had the self-control to abstain from intercourse until the time was right. If a woman was raped, there was a ceremony that was performed to ensure that the child would not inherit the evils of the father, but the family gathered around the woman and helped her and her child (just as they still do today). The “Ipignaka” (that life which is carried in the womb) is a very sacred stage of LIFE that has been acknowldeged as just that by the Lakotas forever. In fact, there is a Lakota story about an old woman who was given the knowledge of a medicine that was capable of aborting babies. She chose to use that medicine for that purpose and was eventually driven mad by the cries of the spirits of all the babies she had killed, and she died. The Lakota Way is not “Pro-Choice” because a REAL Lakota woman would NEVER put her own happiness before the life of a child. That is why they are called Wakanyeja (“sacred beings”). Planned Parenthood itself was founded by a eugenicist who called all “colored” people “human waste”, and who came up with the “Negro Project” designed to get blacks to buy into the “right to choose” in order to allow them to exterminate themselves. By following that philosophy, you are playing right into their hands. The vast majority of Oglalas are Pro-Life. Ask the Grey Eagle Society or Chief Oliver Red Cloud. Abortion is NOT the Oglala way.
Peter.
Are you SURE you want to leave the Pro-Life movement because of what one person wrote? If you are REALLY Pro-Life and care about these innocent little spirits trying to get born, you will not do that. This article was hurtful and racist, but it is the commentary of one person, NOT the whole Pro-Life movement. If you can’t be Pro-Life because of the comments of a member of mainstream American society, be Pro-Life because it is the honorable way. It is the Lakota way. I live out here in Pine Ridge, and I am white. I see how honorably the Lakota live on a daily basis trying to fight the symptoms of the wellfare system, no employment,government health care, broken treaties, and border towns that prey on the depression and desperation of a people who often go without food so that their relatives may eat. It is something that has been CAUSED by mainstream American society. But don’t let mainstream American society take away something so wonderful about the Lakota way of life. My husband (Oglala) believes that the Lakotas and other American Indians were put here to lead the other races back to the true path. Help people like Jill (who has done some pretty wonderful things to save babies in the past) to have a better understanding and live in a better way. Give her the benefit of the doubt – because she is ignorant of the Lakota way – and try to help her see the truth for the benefit of all the babies she saves – including the Lakota babies.
thanks carol_ne, …
wonderful absolutely wonderful!
carol_ne,
Neither the Grey Eagle Society or Oliver Red Cloud have the say over the people. Oliver Red Cloud is a man, for one, and really should have no say over any woman’s body. The whole idea of men dominating over a woman’s body is a European mode of thought, and has no place in Lakota Society.
It’s very true that Lakota women were, and still are, very dedicated to their children. That’s why when the decision was made to have an abortion, it was not taken lightly (just like today). The incidents in which these medicines were used were mostly (but not limited) when there was something physically wrong with the baby. It would be suicide for women of old, and an endangerment to the entire tribe, to have to care for these kind of children. Therefore, I have trouble believing that any woman who made this very serious choice would be condemned.
Finally, just because you are married to an Oglala man, it doesn’t mean you have any right to tell Lakota women what is right and wrong within their own culture. Quite frankly, your presumption disgusts me. How dare you, a white person, try to tell Lakota women what is the “Lakota way.” You should be ashamed of yourself.
Hi Rose,
Please correct me if I do not understand. There are several cultures that have claimed a form of ownership of being … THE human beings. Several decades ago, a South American theologian thought it very significant that the early Christian church claimed universality even though it was obvious that they were not everywhere. They did so comfortably knowing that they lived at the very core of what it means to be human.
In this same sense, I think Carol_ne was writing. We all share the privilege of being human … whether very young or very old, whether pregnant or disabled, and whether a man or woman; whether a Lakota native or a black/white/purple person. Or has this cultural distinction cut you off from our stumbling and stupidities … and our joys and triumphs too?
“Neither the Grey Eagle Society or Oliver Red Cloud have the say over the people.”
That’s what the chief and the elders are FOR. Nowadays, it’s certainly the case that their voices have been silenced, though, since there is a nepotistic tribal council that allows drug dealers and alcoholics to have a seat. Nevertheless, they are getting ready to impeach Cecelia FireThunder because it is even in the TRIBAL COUNCIL’S constitution that the unborn must be protected.
“Oliver Red Cloud is a man, for one, and really should have no say over any woman’s body. The whole idea of men dominating over a woman’s body is a European mode of thought, and has no place in Lakota Society.”
Abortion is not a “woman’s” issue. Half of the children being aborted are male. When 1,200,000 babies are killed every year, it also becomes a WHOLE SOCIETY issue, and that includes men, women, and children. I don’t believe that a man should have control over a woman’s body any more than a woman should have control over a man’s body. That is why I am pro-life. Because that unborn child is not part of a woman’s body just because s/he is IN it. An unborn child has it’s own body, blood type, heart beat, brain waves, genetic code, fingerprints, gender, and eye and hair color apart from its mother. I would ask what part of that child IS the mother’s body? And therefore, agree that no one has the right to have control over another’s body.
“It’s very true that Lakota women were, and still are, very dedicated to their children. That’s why when the decision was made to have an abortion, it was not taken lightly (just like today). The incidents in which these medicines were used were mostly (but not limited) when there was something physically wrong with the baby. It would be suicide for women of old, and an endangerment to the entire tribe, to have to care for these kind of children. “
If that were true, then the tribe would have killed off ALL its disabled members and elders. Therefore, if I am not mistaken, it is a rule that the disabled and the elderly are put first in all considerations of the tribe – like when there is a community feed, for instance.
“Therefore, I have trouble believing that any woman who made this very serious choice would be condemned.”
Me, too. That’s why I don’t believe that Lakota women ever MADE that kind of “choice”.
“Finally, just because you are married to an Oglala man, it doesn’t mean you have any right to tell Lakota women what is right and wrong within their own culture. Quite frankly, your presumption disgusts me. How dare you, a white person, try to tell Lakota women what is the ‘Lakota way.’ You should be ashamed of yourself.”
I’m sorry you are disgusted, but all this information I learned about the “Lakota Way” was taught to me by Lakotas, so you will need to take it up with your own tribe.
South Dakota Indian Abortion Business May Violate Pro-Life Tribal Law
Pine Ridge, SD — A planned abortion business on an Indian reservation in South Dakota may be able to get around a state ban on abortions, but a former tribal judge says it would violate tribal law that respects the life of unborn children. Meanwhile, the tribal president behind the effort may be the subject of an impeachment attempt. Oglala Sioux Tribal President Cecelia Fire Thunder has proposed the abortion facility in response to the abortion ban, but a retired tribal chief judge says tribal law would prevent it from being built. Patrick Lee, a retired chief judge for the Oglala Sioux Tribe who now teaches tribal law at Oglala Lakota College, wrote an op-ed over the weekend to the Rapid City Journal. “Life is sacred – the winged, two-legged, four-legged. You hear constant references to respect for life,” Lee said. “Its the tribal law.” Lee told the Journal that Fire Thunder could press to change tribal law to allow for the abortion business but he indicated that the Native American tradition of respecting life would make it extraordinarily difficult.
carol_ne,
That’s what the chief and the elders are FOR. Nowadays, it’s certainly the case that their voices have been silenced, though, since there is a nepotistic tribal council that allows drug dealers and alcoholics to have a seat. Nevertheless, they are getting ready to impeach Cecelia FireThunder because it is even in the TRIBAL COUNCIL’S constitution that the unborn must be protected.
You’re missing a major point, which is that the Grey Eagle Society does not consist of the only elders on the reservation. In my experience, the people with the true knowledge are the quiet ones, not the ones who yell the loudest on the radio. Secondly, the position of “Chief” was one created by the US government. The Lakota people did not have a “chief,” (that is, one person who made decisions for an entire tribe), but “itancan” who were the heads of large, extended families. The US government appointed certain tribal members as “Chiefs” so they would have someone to sign their treaties. This is why a lot of treaties are disputable, as not everyone respected the so-called “chief.” As for the impeachment thing, aren’t you getting off-subject? The point of my post was to tell you off for trying to represent the Lakota people when you are a white person…not tribal politics.
Abortion is not a “woman’s” issue. Half of the children being aborted are male. When 1,200,000 babies are killed every year, it also becomes a WHOLE SOCIETY issue, and that includes men, women, and children. I don’t believe that a man should have control over a woman’s body any more than a woman should have control over a man’s body. That is why I am pro-life. Because that unborn child is not part of a woman’s body just because s/he is IN it. An unborn child has it’s own body, blood type, heart beat, brain waves, genetic code, fingerprints, gender, and eye and hair color apart from its mother. I would ask what part of that child IS the mother’s body? And therefore, agree that no one has the right to have control over another’s body.
Once again, off-topic, and, quite frankly, just ridiculous. The way you separate a child from its mother, you make it sound like she’s keeping it in a box, not her body. Your description makes the child sound more like a parasite than anything else. If that’s the case, the woman could simply refuse to take care of herself, thus endangering the baby’s health. Should we make that illegal? Or maybe we should force people to go underground to get a tapeworm removed. I could go back and forth with you all day, making the abortion/anti-abortion arguments we’ve all heard a thousand times, but AGAIN it’s not really my concern. Like I said, the issue is you, a white woman, trying to speak for the Lakota people.
If that were true, then the tribe would have killed off ALL its disabled members and elders. Therefore, if I am not mistaken, it is a rule that the disabled and the elderly are put first in all considerations of the tribe – like when there is a community feed, for instance.
Another ridiculous assumption. And, my, how offensive you are to both elderly and disabled people. You’re saying that an elderly person needs the same kind of care that a baby does? Maybe nowadays, with such long life-spans, people need that kind of care. But, frankly, if someone in the old days needed that kind of care, they would die. It doesn’t mean we treated them with any less respect or that we abandoned them. It’s just not realistic that a person who could not walk or take care of themselves would survive very long in the days when enemy attacks were frequent and when food was scarce.
Me, too. That’s why I don’t believe that Lakota women ever MADE that kind of “choice”.
So rather than answer my argument with a well-thought out response, you’re just going to assume I’m lying? Fine. If you’d rather believe people hundreds of years ago lived in Holiday Inns, rather than the often harsh wilderness of the midwest, be my guest. Once again, it’s really not the point here.
I’m sorry you are disgusted, but all this information I learned about the “Lakota Way” was taught to me by Lakotas, so you will need to take it up with your own tribe.
Then you should let these people speak for themselves, not speak for them as a “representative” of the Lakota tribe. If you truly knew anything about the “Lakota way,” you would realize how incredibly rude you are being. You are white, plain and simple. No amount of knowledge you supposedly gain about our culture is ever going to change that. Calling Cecilia a “pseudo-Indian” is best left to actual Indians, not presumptuous white women.
carol_ne: You got OWNED!!!!
The point of my post was to tell you off for trying to represent the Lakota people when you are a white person…not tribal politics.
Oh, my bad. I thought we were having an emotion-free conversation about abortion. I also don’t understand how restating facts that were told to me by Lakotas constitutes “representation”.
Your description makes the child sound more like a parasite than anything else. If that’s the case, the woman could simply refuse to take care of herself, thus endangering the baby’s health.
Actually, “parasite” IS one of the words commonly used by the Pro-Choice movement to describe a fetus. My point is that the baby has his/her own body, too, and no one has the “right” to choose to murder him/her.
Like I said, the issue is you, a white woman, trying to speak for the Lakota people.
I didn’t realize I WAS speaking “for” the Lakota people. I figure they can speak very well for themselves. I was repeating facts that I had been told BY Lakota people. Nevertheless, you seem to have issues with a “white woman” stating the information more so than the information itself. Does truth cease to become truth when the “wrong” person says it?
Another ridiculous assumption. And, my, how offensive you are to both elderly and disabled people. You’re saying that an elderly person needs the same kind of care that a baby does?
No, YOU are saying that. I am saying that Lakotas care for their babies, their elderly, and their disabled because GENEROSITY is also a core Lakota value. They OBVIOUSLY don’t do it the same way for each because they each have different needs.
Then you should let these people speak for themselves, not speak for them as a “representative” of the Lakota tribe.
I didn’t realize I WAS prohibiting them, and I don’t recall ever saying I was a representative. I think, in your emotionally heightened state, you are assuming things that I am not saying.
You are white, plain and simple. No amount of knowledge you supposedly gain about our culture is ever going to change that.
Are you a full-blooded Oglala Lakota? I could be wrong here, and I am certainly not presuming to speak “for” the Lakotas, but I was also told that racism and belittling people is not a Lakota value, either. Just imagine if I had said the same thing to you replacing the word “white” with the word “Lakota”. In any case, you are right. I AM white, and stated that right off the bat, and, yes, I will always be white because that is the color God chose to make me. If it bothers you so much that I am white, then again, you will have to take that up with the Creator, not me. It was HIS idea.
In any case, I am not here to discuss my “whiteness”. If that is all you wanted to talk about, then I am happy to end the conversation right here. I am here to discuss every human being’s right to live, and would be happy to debate those facts with you if you’d like.
From The Rapid City Journal:
http://www.rapidcityjournal.com/articles/2006/04/01/news/local/news02.prt
“Fire Thunder said the tribe’s sovereignty would make a reservation clinic exempt from the state abortion ban, but she emphasized that the clinic would not be funded or run by the tribe. “This is my own position,” she said. “This is not the position of the Oglala Sioux Tribe.” She is proposing a private, nonprofit clinic funded by donations and fees.
From tribal law:
“A child conceived, but not born, is to be deemed an existing person so far as may be necessary for its interests and welfare to be protected in the event of its subsequent birth.”
There. I have “allowed” the Lakotas to speak for themselves. Are we good now? Can we continue the conversation without throwing “race” into it now?
“It’s very true that Lakota women were, and still are, very dedicated to their children. That’s why when the decision was made to have an abortion, it was not taken lightly (just like today). The incidents in which these medicines were used were mostly (but not limited) when there was something physically wrong with the baby. It would be suicide for women of old, and an endangerment to the entire tribe, to have to care for these kind of children.”
I’m just curious how a Lakota woman – in the pre-ultrasound days – would have been able to determine that there was something “physically wrong” with the baby, and thus, elect to kill it. Or are you suggesting that infanticide was also a practice for which a Lakota woman would not have been condemned by her tribe?
Carol_ne,
Oh, my bad. I thought we were having an emotion-free conversation about abortion. I also don’t understand how restating facts that were told to me by Lakotas constitutes “representation”.
If you will kindly scroll up, you’ll see that the only reason I posted here was to tell off a non-indian for saying what is and what isn’t the “Indian way.” I never actually made an argument about the morality of abortion, just told her the facts, which is that the Lakota people had abortion methods for hundreds of years. I don’t know where you got the idea that I actually care about what pro-life and pro-choice people spew back and forth to one-another. I was just correcting her.
As for “representation,” I would say that calling certain Lakota people “pseudo-Indians,” when you are in fact not Lakota, qualifies. As does telling Peter “It is the Lakota way.”
Actually, “parasite” IS one of the words commonly used by the Pro-Choice movement to describe a fetus. My point is that the baby has his/her own body, too, and no one has the “right” to choose to murder him/her.
No, that’s not your point. Your point was to tell me that you don’t think Lakota women could possibly kill their children in the name of survival. Truthfully, I could care less about your thoughts on the morality of abortion and what the “official” stand-point of the Pro-Choice community is. How many times do I have to tell you that before you get it?
I didn’t realize I WAS speaking “for” the Lakota people. I figure they can speak very well for themselves. I was repeating facts that I had been told BY Lakota people. Nevertheless, you seem to have issues with a “white woman” stating the information more so than the information itself. Does truth cease to become truth when the “wrong” person says it?
Forgive me, I should have used the word “outsider” (which was my original intention, but “white” is just so much quicker to type). Nevertheless, telling someone from Pine Ridge “It is the Lakota way” sounds a lot like you’re trying to represent our interests. And what truth are you speaking of? I don’t believe you ever successfully refuted my statement that the Lakota people had, and at times used, abortion medicines. Your answer was something along the lines of “Nuh uhh!”
Are you a full-blooded Oglala Lakota? I could be wrong here, and I am certainly not presuming to speak “for” the Lakotas, but I was also told that racism and belittling people is not a Lakota value, either. Just imagine if I had said the same thing to you replacing the word “white” with the word “Lakota”. In any case, you are right. I AM white, and stated that right off the bat, and, yes, I will always be white because that is the color God chose to make me. If it bothers you so much that I am white, then again, you will have to take that up with the Creator, not me. It was HIS idea.
I don’t have any problem with you being white. Show me an incident where I belittled you SIMPLY because you are white. My problem is that you’re trying to tell Native people what is and isn’t our way, when you aren’t a part of our culture. I would never tell a white person what is and isn’t the “white way” or a black person what is and isn’t the “black way.” In fact, I dare you to go to North Ridge and tell a Native person what is the “Lakota way” or to a ghetto and tell a black person what is the “African-American way.” You’ll understand how offensive you are being then.
Oh, and, for the record, I’m an Oglala Lakota/Ojibwe mix. Either way, it’s irrelevant, because I was born in Pine Ridge and raised in our traditional culture. I’ve always found judging someone on their blood-quantity to be in bad taste. We’re not dogs…we don’t have pedigrees. I see what you’re trying to do here, though. You want me to say I’m not full-blood, so you can challenge me in judging you for not being Lakota. I’ll tell you now, though, that the issue is not with purity, but with you being an outsider. An outsider is an outsider, regardless of race.
In any case, I am not here to discuss my “whiteness”. If that is all you wanted to talk about, then I am happy to end the conversation right here. I am here to discuss every human being’s right to live, and would be happy to debate those facts with you if you’d like.
I actually don’t understand how your point went from being about what the Lakota believe to abortion issues. If you wanted to discuss abortion morality, you shouldn’t have started a conversation with me about Lakota beliefs. I’m just talking about the traditional view of the Lakota people.
I’m just curious how a Lakota woman – in the pre-ultrasound days – would have been able to determine that there was something “physically wrong” with the baby, and thus, elect to kill it. Or are you suggesting that infanticide was also a practice for which a Lakota woman would not have been condemned by her tribe?
You’re telling me there’s something you DON’T know?
There are several very good answers to this response. For one, these women were very intune with their bodies. It wasn’t hard for them to tell if something didn’t feel right with the baby. In fact, I think most women who are pregnant have this sort of intuition when it comes to the child inside of them. Another would be that they were told in religious ceremonies. If there were something wrong with the baby, the spirits would let the people know about it. As for the infanticide thing…I’m sorry to break your bleeding heart, but it did occasionally happen. There are sad stories (and you may want to ask around about this to confirm it for yourself) about women who had to suffocate their own babies during enemy attacks, so, when the people were hiding, their cries wouldn’t give away their position. It was a very sad decision for the mother to have to make, but was necessary for the survival of the tribe.
The things I’ve discussed are just a small part of a vast culture. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it better before you use our culture as fodder for another misguided political discussion. This way you’ll come off less impertinant, and more as a credible source.
–As for “representation,” I would say that calling certain Lakota people “pseudo-Indians,” when you are in fact not Lakota, qualifies. As does telling Peter “It is the Lakota way.”–
Yes, perhaps “Apple Indian” would have been better, and no, I am not qualified to judge Cecelia based on being an Indian, though she has CLEARLY violated several well-known Lakota beliefs, I am recognizing her as that because I am white, and I have never seen a woman as “wasicu” as Cecelia who would sacrifice Lakota children just to make a buck for the reservation.
–No, that’s not your point. Your point was to tell me that you don’t think Lakota women could possibly kill their children in the name of survival. Truthfully, I could care less about your thoughts on the morality of abortion and what the “official” stand-point of the Pro-Choice community is. How many times do I have to tell you that before you get it?–
Well, this being the first time, I guess once. I was told by quite a few Lakotas that the tribe would rather have risked a higher degree of danger by gathering around the weak, the “touched”, the young, and the old than to EVER have sacrificed them for the “survival” of the tribe. Don’t get all upset because I don’t believe what you have said. We’ll just agree to disagree.
–Forgive me, I should have used the word “outsider” (which was my original intention, but “white” is just so much quicker to type). Nevertheless, telling someone from Pine Ridge “It is the Lakota way” sounds a lot like you’re trying to represent our interests. And what truth are you speaking of? I don’t believe you ever successfully refuted my statement that the Lakota people had, and at times used, abortion medicines. Your answer was something along the lines of “Nuh uhh!”–
Again, I have been told that the knowledge of what certain medicines were “capable of” if used incorrectly did not at all mean that they were actually used for that purpose. Many grammas have told me that abortion was NOT done. All children were sacred (as the expression indicates), and their needs were provided for.
–I don’t have any problem with you being white. Show me an incident where I belittled you SIMPLY because you are white. My problem is that you’re trying to tell Native people what is and isn’t our way, when you aren’t a part of our culture. I would never tell a white person what is and isn’t the “white way” or a black person what is and isn’t the “black way.” In fact, I dare you to go to North Ridge and tell a Native person what is the “Lakota way” or to a ghetto and tell a black person what is the “African-American way.” You’ll understand how offensive you are being then.–
Funny. I have lived here for many years. I have (Oglala)family here. I work here. I play here. One day I may have non-full-blooded Lakota children here. I pay taxes to the tribe. Yet, I am still an “outsider”. I didn’t realize that skin-color (or lack thereof) made me incapable of grasping concepts that I see and hear every day. I guess Black Elk wasn’t really capable of being the Catholic he proclaimed to be and Fool’s Crow could never POSSIBLY understand the Episcopal Church to which he belonged because those are white man’s beliefs. I guess you don’t drive a car or vote, because those come from the “white way”. As far as not telling me what is the “white way”, I have not known you long enough for you to do that, but I WILL tell you that I get told all the time here what is the “white man’s way”, and often it is totally incorrect, like where “Halloween” came from or where the “f” word originated. If you heard what I heard on a daily basis here, you’d think that everything that is bad came from the whites and everything that is good (even if it DID come from the whites) someway or another originated with the Lakotas.
–Oh, and, for the record, I’m an Oglala Lakota/Ojibwe mix. Either way, it’s irrelevant, because I was born in Pine Ridge and raised in our traditional culture. I’ve always found judging someone on their blood-quantity to be in bad taste. We’re not dogs…we don’t have pedigrees. I see what you’re trying to do here, though. You want me to say I’m not full-blood, so you can challenge me in judging you for not being Lakota. I’ll tell you now, though, that the issue is not with purity, but with you being an outsider. An outsider is an outsider, regardless of race.–
Didn’t you ask me somewhere up above when you ever “belittled” me? Bingo.
–I actually don’t understand how your point went from being about what the Lakota believe to abortion issues. If you wanted to discuss abortion morality, you shouldn’t have started a conversation with me about Lakota beliefs. I’m just talking about the traditional view of the Lakota people.–
My point was the Oglalas are Pro-Life. Whereas I focused on the word “pro-life”, you focused on the word “Oglala”. Nevertheless, I have backed that statement up with evidence, and as long as I do that, I don’t see why the “Lakota Way” has to be a taboo topic for me. I live, breath, eat, and sleep within the realm of the Lakota Way everyday. My husband sees to that quite well. Am I not, then, allowed to discuss it?
–You’re telling me there’s something you DON’T know?–
“belittling”?
–There are several very good answers to this response. For one, these women were very intune with their bodies. It wasn’t hard for them to tell if something didn’t feel right with the baby. In fact, I think most women who are pregnant have this sort of intuition when it comes to the child inside of them. Another would be that they were told in religious ceremonies. If there were something wrong with the baby, the spirits would let the people know about it.–
Fair enough. But then, why weren’t ALL the “touched” aborted or killed for the safety of the tribe? I would think that a person who is witko would pose a greater threat to the tribe than one who is just slow.
–As for the infanticide thing…I’m sorry to break your bleeding heart, but it did occasionally happen. There are sad stories (and you may want to ask around about this to confirm it for yourself) about women who had to suffocate their own babies during enemy attacks, so, when the people were hiding, their cries wouldn’t give away their position. It was a very sad decision for the mother to have to make, but was necessary for the survival of the tribe.–
I am quite familiar with the one or two stories I have heard come out of the native populations of the entire US, where a woman was trying to quiet her baby with her hand and accidentally suffocated it. That is far different from having time to think, and with a sensible and cool head, DECIDING to kill a baby. Again, this may just have to be one of those places where we agree to disagree. I know what I’ve been told, and you know what you’ve been told. We will probably just have to leave it at that.
–The things I’ve discussed are just a small part of a vast culture. I suggest you familiarize yourself with it better before you use our culture as fodder for another misguided political discussion. This way you’ll come off less impertinant, and more as a credible source.–
I’ll be sure to censure the Lakotas who gave me all this information for being “misguided” and using the Lakota culture as “fodder” for a political discussion. Thank you for helping me, and them, to see the light.