Sunday confessional: I had an abortion and haven’t told my fiance
The pop website, Sugar.com, has a section entitled, “Sunday confessional.” Yesterday’s question was a good one.
Dear Sugar
I am engaged, and my wedding day is fast approaching. My husband to be couldn’t be any more perfect for me, but I have not been 100% truthful with him and my guilt is starting to take a toll on me. My fiance is extremely Catholic and comes from a very religious family. I was raised Catholic as well, but my family never put much emphasis on religion. We have been together for almost 5 years and I feel like the luckiest woman in the world to have such an amazing partner. We just completed our marriage preparation courses and during our Foccus class, I withheld information about my past that I am afraid will haunt me forever.
The first time I had sex, when I was 17; I got pregnant by my then boyfriend. Obviously this came as a total surprise, clearly neither one of us was educated on safe sex, and I decided, after much consideration, to have an abortion. I know I did the right thing and to this day stand by my decision, but I never told my fiance due to his strong religious beliefs. While I know he loves me and supports everything I do, I feel like if I tell him now, he will question my trust throughout our entire relationship. I love my future husband and don’t want to jeopardize our relationship, but I feel horrible about starting our lives as husband and wife under false pretenses. Am I wrong to keep this to myself?
There are certainly many subtopics to pick apart within the letter (and feel free to pick away), but I don’t think the question itself is necessarily pro-life vs. pro-abortion. What do you think this young woman should do?
[Graphic courtesy of Sugar.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Yes,Tell him.Otherwise,it may come out on accident.Also,if he really loves you,he won’t leave.Besides,what if you want to have children,and you have problems in your pregnancy because of your abortion.No more secrets.
One thing the writer should keep in mind is that she is no longer Catholic.
Canon 1398 provides that “a person who procures a successful abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication.” This means that at the moment that the abortion is successfully accomplished, the woman and all formal conspirators are excommunicated. The writer, having procured a successful abortion, is excommunicated has no business calling herself Catholic.
If she gets married in a Catholic church, or for that matter if she takes holy communion, she will be lying into the face of God.
“mom of 3”, you wrote: “Besides,what if you want to have children,and you have problems in your pregnancy because of your abortion”
Except in very rare cases, abortion does not affect fertility or cause problems with subsequent pregnancies. You are repeating a right-to-life myth.
SOMG,can you honestly tell me that abortion/abortions cannot cause increased risk of miscarriage? How about breast CA? If there is no truth to this, then why did a friend of mine had to have a hysterectomy after 7 abortions?The hospital that performed her op.said that the removal of her uterus was due to her excessive amount of abortions.
The problem is not that she had an abortion. The problem is not that she didn’t tell her boyfriend.
The problem is that she still believes she was right to do so.
So, yes, she is in fact ex-communicated. If she knew that it was a mortal sin, understood what that meant and did it anyway, that is.
If her boyfriend is truly a practicing Catholic, she has two strikes against her. She lied, and she committed a grave sin and is not sorry she did so.
If I were her boyfriend, I would run screaming to the hills…
The fact that she lied shows that she is well aware that what she did was wrong, even if only on a subconscious level. If she truly believed that there was nothing “wrong” with this behavior, she would have told him a long time ago. Right about the time she told him what brand of tooth paste she uses. You know nothing wrong with toothpast preference, nothing wrong with abortin’ your kid.
So she has lied to avoid unpleasantness and because it was more convenient to do so than to face the music and take her CONSEQUENCES.
And she aborted her child to avoid unpleasantness and because it was more convenient to do so than it was to face the “CONSEQUENCES”.
This is a perfect example of a malformed conscience. Someone whose moral code is dictated by what is best for them and them alone.
She is not concerned that the abortion was wrong. She is afraid of getting caught.
She is not concerned that building a marriage based on lies is an insult to the sacredness of the sacrament of marriage. She is afraid of getting caught. And afraid that when she gets caught, her boyfriend (fiance) will leave her.
As well he should.
This sounds like a pattern of behavior and not a one time mistake.
My advice to her: Grow up. This man is not your possession. Marriage is not something you do. Marriage is something you become. This man is a human being and not a trophy. You need to lower your standards to someone who is a lot more like you.
My advice to him: Open your eyes, cut your losses and raise your standards. Hold out for someone who understands what “til death do us part” means.
And not in relation to their future children. “Til Death do us part” takes on a whole new meaning there.
MK
“mom of 3” you wrote: “SOMG,can you honestly tell me that abortion/abortions cannot cause increased risk of miscarriage? ”
Yes, I can honestly tell you that. Also, any working ob/gyn will tell you the same thing.
Look up Baillieres Clin Obstet Gynaecol. 1990 Jun;4(2):391-405. Here’s a link to the abstract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=retrieve&db=pubmed&list_uids=2225607&dopt=Abstract
“How about breast CA?”
Nope. Abortion has never been causally linked to subsequent breast cancer by any statistically significant study. On the contrary, all the large studies have found no increase in breast cancer rates following abortion. Look up for instance the Melbye study, which followed 1.5 MILLION women for 28 years, tracking their abortions and their breast cancers.
The “link” between abortion and subsequent breast cancer is another right-to-life myth, supported only by the amplification of statistical noise, propagated by well-funded right-to-life organizations whose mission is to outlaw abortion and to frighten women out of having abortions, not to help women or to provide honest health-related information. It is a mistake to take them seriously.
“If there is no truth to this, then why did a friend of mine had to have a hysterectomy after 7 abortions?The hospital that performed her op.said that the removal of her uterus was due to her excessive amount of abortions. ”
I doubt the hospital told her this. From what you say it sounds like she misunderstood what the hospital told her, or else you misunderstood what she told you.
Her hysterectomy might have been required because of a COMPLICATION from one of her abortions (probably the last one) but such complications which cause historectomies are very rare and can also occur during full-term live birth (vaginal or c-section).
Momof3
I think I agree with you on that one. I usually feel when it comes to making confessions, you should examine why you want to confess- to cleanse yourself by sharing the guilt or because there is genuine and unselfish concern for the partner.
She does not seem to wanna tell him to ease her guilt but because she genuinly feels he shouldn;t be marrying someone under false pretenses. She should tell him the truth- for her own sake. She already feels ‘haunted’…it will continue to haunt her. Once you know the truth about certain things it is hard to lie to yourself about them, and it would probably make her depressed. And if he finds out some other way through some twists of destiny, he might be much more upset.
If I were her I’d think long and hard if their marriage is going to work if they have such different feelings about their faith…
“mom of 3″, elsewhere, you wrote:”The majority of women that I know have had abortions.”
What an extraordinary coincidence! How do you come to know so many women who have had abortions?
“… The lies they were told,the abuse in the clinics,the procedure itself.”
What “abuse in the clinics” do the women you know who have had abortions complain of? Were they sexually molested by clinic personnel or what?
“…my gal pals have these same problems.Drugs,drinking,low self esteem,suicide attempts.”
I assume you’re talking here about your gal pals who have had abortions. Do you honestly think that if these women had been forced by the government to carry their pregnancies to term and have babies instead of abortions they’d be free of these problems now?
Seems to me if an abortion can cause a woman to drink, use drugs, have low self-esteem, and attempt suicide, there’s probably something wrong in the first place.
Regarding Carhart: Why do you think no charges have been brought against him for driving into the sidewalk counsellor? Given that it was caught on video, shouldn’t the case against him be an open-and-shut case?
Could it be that the counsellor knows that he was violating federal law by picketing too close to Carhart’s clinic entrance, and fears being charged himself?
“mom of 3″, elsewhere, you wrote:”The majority of women that I know have had abortions.”
What an extraordinary coincidence! How do you come to know so many women who have had abortions?
SOMG, you know very well it’s not a coincidence. How many women have had abortions? A very large percentage of people…isn’t it something like 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 women? A better question would be, how could she NOT know that many women who had abortions?
SOMG,Who are these women? Good friends-coworkers,aquentices,sisters of friends.
oops I meant acquaintances.
One in 3 or one in 4 women have had an abortion–and the MAJORITY of women she knows–more than fifty percent–have had one? Unless there’s some amplifying factor, that IS an extraordinary coincidence.
Bethany, you need to take a course in Statistics 101.
SOMG,How many abortions are done every year?I’m bound to know a lot of women that have had them.Are you implying that I’m trash??
Oh,oops MK.I didn’t read the part about her not feeling that it was the wrong thing to do.This dude should run!
Wow, MK, I have lost the last shards of respect I had for you. People like you are the reason that she hasn’t told her fiance.
If you truly loved someone you would be understanding, not turn your back and run. I don’t blame her for not telling him. It’s a shame that she feels she can’t even confined in the person that she loves for fear of him turning his back on her because of religious beliefs.
And to think that you try and lecture me about my relationship? To think I actually let what you pro-life women had to say about my boyfriend shake me. I’m disappointed in myself.
Okay,back to Carhart[less] for a sec.Even if he is cleared of any wrong doing,is it OK for him to hit someone and not even get out of his car to ask the guy if he’s okay? This isn’t some made for TV movie I saw. It was an actual video.I don’t care if the guy was standing in Carhart’s clinic door.You are telling me that vehicular assault is fine by you.
Wow, MK, I have lost the last shards of respect I had for you. People like you are the reason that she hasn’t told her fiance.
She hasn’t told her fiancee because she knows her fiancee does not condone murder. Since she feels no remorse for her actions, she knows they have no chance of staying together if it comes out.
If she was sorry for what she did, it would be a totally different story.
I think she should tell him, hiding something would most likely hurt the relationship
However, in terms of the guy leaving? That is just ridiculous. When you truly love someone you accept their faults/mistakes as well as the good within them. Each is supposed to be strong for the other. If the woman feels she should tell her fiance, her fiance should be there for her. He may not agree with what she did, but if he truly loves her in the long run it will not matter. Since he views abortion as a sin, he should realize that it is between her and God to figure out, not something that should make him end the relationship. Nno one is perfect, end of story. To break off a future marriage because of an abortion, to me, seems ridiculous, even if it is a sin. All people sin, all make mistakes. The best thing to do is accept it and move on, leaving it between God and his fiance to figure out.
Wow MK – so much for forgiveness?
I think its a mistake not to tell him. Not because she had an abortion, but because its bugging her that shes keeping things from him – no matter what its in regards to. I was upfront with my boyfriend about my sexual history, and expected him to be upfront about his. It wasnt the most comfortable conversation in the world, but I dont regret having it for one second.
Otherwise, you cant really have TRULY safe sex.
“mom of 3”, you wrote: “How many abortions are done every year?I’m bound to know a lot of women that have had them.”
“A lot of women”–sure. But the MAJORITY of the women you know? “Majority” means more than fifty percent. Selecting from a general population with a one in three or one in four abortion rate–it’s just too great a coincidence to believe that MORE THAN FIFTY PER CENT of the people you know fall into this category, if the people you know were a random sample of the population. There must be something about you–the people you meet, the people you remain friends with–which causes this disparity. (That’s what I meant by an “amplifying factor”.)
Oh,MK so sorry to hear that all respect for you is gone.[sarcastic laugh] You poor misguided pro-life woman.See what I mean? Pro-choicers are cool with us unless we rock their boats-even if just a titch.I made a small mistake in my post the other day, and I believe Danielle here was one of the first to label me a mental case.
One in 3 or one in 4 women have had an abortion–and the MAJORITY of women she knows–more than fifty percent–have had one? Unless there’s some amplifying factor, that IS an extraordinary coincidence.
Bethany, you need to take a course in Statistics 101.
I see nothing extraordinary about it.
Bethany, I think his point is that unless she lives somewhere where for one reason or another abortion is common, as well as other factors that lead to those symptoms she described, it is unlikely she has that many friends who have had an abortion AND show those symptoms.
Oh SOMG [this must stand for Some Other Misleading Garbage] Please don’t pee on my leg and tell me it’s raining! Don’t play dumb either.You think that I attract what kinds of women/people?? Women that have had abortions?You are trying to hurl an insult my way.Are you saying that I am trash because the women I associate with have had abortions? This is how I take it!Wait…you are on the CHOICE side correct???
Bethany, I repeat: You need to take an intro statistics course.
Bethany, I think his point is that unless she lives somewhere where for one reason or another abortion is common, as well as other factors that lead to those symptoms she described, it is unlikely she has that many friends who have had an abortion AND show those symptoms.
No, it really isn’t. It’s really not uncommon for women to show these symptoms, as many times as pro-abortion advocates like to shout it from the rooftops. It’s just not. Momof3 has seen it with her own eyes. I have seen it with my own eyes. You can’t persuade us with your stats.
momof3, I think you’re completely misinterpreting what he was saying. He was commenting on how large the anomaly must be if most of your friends have had abortions and also, for one reason or another, are depressed, suicidal, drinking, doing drugs, etc. It is just incredibly unlikely.
Momof3
I think he was actually questioning your choice of words (albeit in a confrontational manner). He is questioning how a majority of the women you know (meaning over one half, which is larger than one third or twice as large as one fourth) have had abortions. If there was some amplifying situation that over half of the women you know would have had abortions (perhaps such as working with women who have had abortions) then that would explain why the number of women you know who have had abortions is higher than the average number of women having them. Or perhaps you didn’t mean “majority” you meant “a lot” of women you know have had abortions.
Bethany, I repeat: You need to take an intro statistics course.
SOMG…oops, I mean Dan… oops, I mean, SOMG.
Nope, I don’t think so. ;-) Thanks though!
When it came to miss 7 abortions,I KNOW what I was told.Why couldn’t that be possible? Every time an abortion is performed the cervix must be opened and pinched with a tenaculum[sp?]right?I watched a first trimester abortion called The Choice Blues.UUUgh!That looked painful and brutal.SOMG,I believe you to be a filthy liar!
“mom of 3” you wrote: “You are trying to hurl an insult my way.”
I assure you, no.
“Are you saying that I am trash because the women I associate with have had abortions?”
I never said you were trash–you’re the one who keeps bringing that up.
Look–if more than fifty percent of the women you know fall into ANY category (in this case, post-abortive) which applies only to one in three or one in four women in the general population, then there MUST be some reason for the disparity between the set of your acquaintances and the general population.
For instance, here’s a possible explanation: maybe you meet women in post-abortive church groups or something?
MK thanks for the latest apparition! Im addicted!
PS Im a little concerned that one of the largest churches in the world would excommunicate someone for having an abortion. Opinions here vary on whether that would or would not be a mistake, and that will also depend on the woman; however, I should think that if this is in fact a sin, if she repents and God forgives her, the church is absolutely and unquestionably without the right to hold her accountable for this sin.
I think she should tell him because it’s clearly bothering her that she hasn’t told him. just like couple should know their partner’s sexual history so they can be sure that there aren’t any STD’s involved, something like an abortion is important for the man to know about.
However, if this information is going to make the fiance leave her, then the marriage clearly was a mistake. After all, if he has the gall to leave the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with because of an abortion she had when she was a teenager, he probably isn’t truely in love with her and I think all of us can agree that a marriage should be based on love.
“However, if this information is going to make the fiance leave her, then the marriage clearly was a mistake. After all, if he has the gall to leave the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with because of an abortion she had when she was a teenager, he probably isn’t truely in love with her and I think all of us can agree that a marriage should be based on love.”
I concur!
Joe,
Once you know the truth about certain things it is hard to lie to yourself about them,
Well, now, isn’t that what we’ve been trying to tell you?
mk
“mom of 3”, you wrote: “Every time an abortion is performed the cervix must be opened and pinched with a tenaculum[sp?]right?”
Right–opened to a diameter of 12 millimeters or less. That’s nothing. Doesn’t hurt future fertility at all. A full-term live birth can open the cervix as much as 12 CENTIMETERS.
You wrote: “SOMG,I believe you to be a filthy liar!”
Didn’t Jill post something about this? Yes, here it is, from her WEEKEND post: “… from this time forward, I will enforce healthy debate. No name calling, no insults.”
In any event there’s no need for you to take my word for any of this. Ask your OB/GYN. Or go to the professional literature and look it up for yourself. Do you have access to a medical library?
“However, if this information is going to make the fiance leave her, then the marriage clearly was a mistake. After all, if he has the gall to leave the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with because of an abortion she had when she was a teenager, he probably isn’t truely in love with her and I think all of us can agree that a marriage should be based on love.”
I concur!]
See, to us, that’s like saying:
“After all, if he has the gall to leave the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with because she killed her newborn baby when she was a teenager…”
I think a man would be more than justified in leaving his fiancee if he were to find this information out…not only that she killed her baby, but that she doesn’t mind that she killed her baby, and she thinks it was the right thing to do.
So much for Christians being forgiving, huh?
I’m pretty sure I can see the response thats gunna be thrown at me but..
Killing a baby is already illegal.
Dear MK
“Joe,
Once you know the truth about certain things it is hard to lie to yourself about them,
Well, now, isn’t that what we’ve been trying to tell you?”
I really don;t know what you are trying to say. I do have a suspicion though. let me just tell you the truth can be a subjective little fellow and many a pro-choicer sleeps well at night because they feel they know the truth as much as anti=abortion activists :-).
“And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.”
Exodus 21:22-25
In this instance, the Bible places causing a woman to miscarry (an induced ending of a pregnancy, or induced abortion) while fighting with someone else makes that man subject to a fine. A civil matter, if you will. However, if further injury results, i.e., the woman dies as a result of the injury, the man who caused the injury must pay with his life. This verse suggests that causing a fetus to die is less of a sin than actually murdering someone who is born.
What I’m gathering is that pro- choice supporters are so happy to have this wonderful right called abortion.The minute someone points out one bad thing about it,all of a sudden, it’s not true,you’re exaggerating, it didn’t happen,it’s not possible,can’t be,not likely,one big misunderstanding,no way,who told you this?You’re making that up,you couldn’t have heard it that way,that web site is not factual,etc.
[See, to us, that’s like saying:
“After all, if he has the gall to leave the woman he wanted to spend the rest of his life with because she killed her newborn baby when she was a teenager…” ]
That would imply that after she phyiscally gave birth to the child to killed it, however that was not the case, if you’re going to use shock language to try and sway us, use it correctly.
it might be justified if it were his child, but it was not, and it was when she was a teenager. Keep in mind that this man is so in love with this woman that he wants to marry her. I highly doubt no matter how catholic he is that he would fall out of love with her if she found out that he had an abortion. They might not agree on it, but if there relationship was strong, they could work it out.
Mom, we based you exaggerating or mis-speaking (typing, whatever) on statistics that you provided. It doesnt make statistical sense, unless there is some outside factor that is not being given.
So much for Christians being forgiving, huh?
How can you forgive someone if they don’t even recognize they’ve done wrong?
If his attitude was “I forgive you”, when she has said, “It was the right thing to do”… she’d reply, “I don’t need your forgiveness, I didn’t do anything wrong.”
People who recognize they do wrong seek forgiveness and receive it.
People who don’t recognize their error don’t get forgiven, because they don’t believe they did anything to be forgiven for.
In fact, they would be insulted if they were forgiven for something they considered “okay”, wouldn’t they? Wouldn’t you?
The very word forgiveness implies that there’s something to be forgiven, right?
God also destroyed Sodom and Gomorra because he could not find one good person in it. One could suspect there were some pregant women in these towns. Obviously, God did not consider the fetus a person, and if , they were not innocent. How do you explain that??
“you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise”
Dang, that’s pretty vindictive! Isn’t there also a verse in the bible that says someone about turning the other cheek though? :-/
that would be the new testament, which is what applies now for Christians
I personally feel that she should not tell him. The woman’s receiving any forgiveness she may have felt that she needed is between her and God. I know many women who regret that they had an abortion but still feel that it was the right decision for them to make at that point in their lives. If her boyfriend is as devout as she implies, he will undoubtedly bring into the situation a large group of people who have no business trampling in such a personal affair. Telling him will only make him grieve the loss of the child and make him question her devotion to both him and their religion. However, she should take a close look at what has prompted her to keep the secret from him and consider whether she can truly share her life with a man (and clergy, for that matter) who is so quick to judge and slow to forgive.
Yeah Danielle,
OT isn’t really up to date after Jesus ;).
Also, it’s true you need to repent first before you can be forgiven…
[“you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise”
Dang, that’s pretty vindictive! Isn’t there also a verse in the bible that says someone about turning the other cheek though? ]
yes but the whole eye for eye thing is talking about one sitution. The Bible is also full of contraditions and therefore what’s written in it shouldn’t be followed exactly word for word and/or taken out of context
But they still like to use some of the OT rules. I
. Telling him will only make him grieve the loss of the child and make him question her devotion to both him and their religion.
And rightly so, Samantha.
” If her boyfriend is as devout as she implies, he will undoubtedly bring into the situation a large group of people who have no business trampling in such a personal affair.”
And this is why I’m very glad my boyfriend is not religious. He’s agnostic now, but grew up Catholic. And he despises his past religion.
He shouldnt question her devotion to him, considering she was 17 when she had the abortion. assuming that this person is in their mid to late 20s, if not older, much will have changed and most likely they have been together exclusively for awhile now if they plan on marriage.
Also, Ii think he would have noticed by now if she doesnt place much devoition in religion. She was raised without emphasis on religion, and I think that even if she tried hard, it would still show thorugh.
He shouldnt question her devotion to him, considering she was 17 when she had the abortion. assuming that this person is in their mid to late 20s, if not older, much will have changed and most likely they have been together exclusively for awhile now if they plan on marriage.
If she’s kept a secret from him for so long, who’s to say there aren’t other secrets? This is what he would question.
Bethany,
You do realize that it’s religion that’s almost forcing her to keep a secret from him? If he wasn’t a “devout” Catholic, with most likely a devout Catholic family, she probably would have told him much sooner.
I doubt many secrets could beat having an abortion for someone who is a devout Catholic. The fact that she is admitting this to him whe she knows that she could possibly lose him should be a sign of her devotion, not a mark against it. Yeah, questioning would be normal at first, but if he stopped to think about it he would realize that there most likely is nothing else, if she has already risked an end to the relationship
Samantha,
PS I’m a little concerned that one of the largest churches in the world would excommunicate someone for having an abortion. Opinions here vary on whether that would or would not be a mistake, and that will also depend on the woman; however, I should think that if this is in fact a sin, if she repents and God forgives her, the church is absolutely and unquestionably without the right to hold her accountable for this sin.
I’m so impressed. Great question.
If you’ll notice I added the caveat that it was only a mortal sin if she understood it to be so at the time, and then did it any way. There must be full knowledge and full consent. The fact that she is afraid to tell her “catholic” boyfriend tells me that she knows (at least) that the “church” views it as a sin.
However, when we say excommunicated, we mean that she can’t receive communion. Not that she is no longer a Catholic. She can still participate in mass, she just can’t receive the sacraments. So if she wanted to get married in the Catholic church (claiming that she was Catholic) this would be another “grave” sin. If she is no longer Catholic then she would need special permission from her pastor to get married in the church.
There are no Catholic police, so unless a person’s sin is public (like Hannity, or the homosexuals that wear the sashes and demand communion) a person is basically responsible for the state of his own soul. But after looking at those Eucharistic Miracles you must realize now that receiving communion is about more than receiving a piece of bread and a sip of wine.
The problem here, as I pointed out, is not that she has had an abortion. That can be forgiven through a good confession. The problem is she is incapable of making a good confession because she is not sorry that she had the abortion.
Technically, if you miss mass on Sunday without a good reason, and do not confess it, you are also excommunicated, until you confess this sin. You may not receive communion. Missing mass is a mortal sin, a sin serious enough to breach your relationship with God. Having a mortal sin on your soul means that you can’t receive communion.
See?
This is why I said that the guy should run. This girl is capable of lying to avoid facing consequences and she had an abortion to avoid facing consequences.
What else will she do to avoid consequences.
Everyone seems to think that I am telling him to run because she had an abortion.
I am not.
I am telling him to run because her modus operandi is to avoid consequences.
The fact that he is catholic (although we don’t know what kind of a Catholic he is) could, and I say could, mean that knowing she is pro-choice would compromise his faith. Not that she had an abortion, but that she is pro-choice. But I would bet that these guys are sleeping together (bold assumption, but I’m going by the norm these days) so he would actually be excommunicated too.
If you go to a Hispanic mass, you’ll notice that half the church doesn’t go to communion. Same thing in a polish church. Rarely in an American one. Because these other countries still understand the seriousness of communion and receiving it with a clean soul.
Does that help? I don’t want to think the church goes around throwin’ people out of it. They just ask that if you come, you receive the Eucharist with due respect.
MK
I
You do realize that it’s religion that’s almost forcing her to keep a secret from him? If he wasn’t a “devout” Catholic, with most likely a devout Catholic family, she probably would have told him much sooner.You do realize that it’s religion that’s almost forcing her to keep a secret from him? If he wasn’t a “devout” Catholic, with most likely a devout Catholic family, she probably would have told him much sooner.
Maybe she should have not gotten involved with a man who is devoted to God?
Bethany, you dont choose who you love.
“receiving communion is about more than receiving a piece of bread and a sip of wine.”
Haha, I got communion cause my parents forced me to go to church (once in my life), looks like another reason I’m going to Hell. But dang those wafers are tasty!
Didn’t drink the wine though. I don’t drink anything alcoholic, period.
This is why I said that the guy should run. This girl is capable of lying to avoid facing consequences and she had an abortion to avoid facing consequences.
What else will she do to avoid consequences.
Everyone seems to think that I am telling him to run because she had an abortion.
I am not.
I am telling him to run because her modus operandi is to avoid consequences.
EXACTLY.
Dan,
Beat me too it.
I’d also add, that she’s better off without him if God is more important to him, but that’s just me. The love for the living should come before that of the unknown.
I receive once a year simply because if I refused to go to church with my grandparents they would probably disown me, or just not talk to me and whatnot. Kinda sad, especially since they know I dont normally go to church anyways
SamanthaT, you wrote: “Im a little concerned that one of the largest churches in the world would excommunicate someone for having an abortion. ”
It does. Read Canon 1398. Not only does the Catholic church excommunicate you for procuring an abortion, but the excommunication occurs LATAE SENTENTIAE–automatically, without ceremony, at the moment the abortion is completed.
You wrote: “I should think that if this is in fact a sin, if she repents and God forgives her, the church is absolutely and unquestionably without the right to hold her accountable for this sin.”
According to Catholic doctrine, God does not forgive excommunicated people. Excommunicated people cannont go to confession or take communion, which is required for God’s forgiveness.
Dan,
Yeah, but I never went through communion or any of those “fun” religious classes. I just wanted the wafer.
sorry SOMG,I got a bit carried away,but I didn’t curse.
Amanda and Danielle,
I am sorry that you have lost respect for me.
But honestly, I am more concerned with losing the respect of God and my church than you guys.
If I started compromising on my faith to please you, I’d lose respect for myself.
I never said he should leave her because she had an abortion. I would never say that a man should leave someone because they have had an abortion.
I said he should run because she is in the habit of doing whatever it takes to make her life easier.
Like lying, and having an abortion.
If he is a Catholic in good standing, (not having sexual relations outside of marriage, going to regular confession, not missing mass etc.) then marrying a woman who is PRO-CHOICE, (not someone who has had an abortion) could seriously compromise his standing in the church. I highly doubt that if the church found out she had had an abortion and was not sorry that she did, that they would allow her to marry in the church.
But again, the issue here is not the abortion. The issue is that she can’t be forgiven because she has not asked for, nor does she want, forgiveness. (on the issue of the abortion, not the lie).
It’s the avoidance of consequences that is the issue here.
If I were him, and I knew she was capable of lying to me, and capable of killing her child, I would spend the rest of the marriage wondering if she had become pregnant with my child and had aborted it without telling me. I could never completely trust her again. She would have to earn that trust back, and that would take a long time.
Does that clear things up?
mk
If she thinks she did the right thing, why does she say she’s ashamed of it?
“I said he should run because she is in the habit of doing whatever it takes to make her life easier.”
She has a habit? So having one abortion when you were 17 makes it a habit? Really? Interesting. See I though habit was when you did something numerous times.
MK says
“I said he should run because she is in the habit of doing whatever it takes to make her life easier.”
You are being extremely judgemental. You don’t know anything about this woman except for that she had an abortion at age 17 and now worries to lose her fiance over this incident. Your great at throwing the first stones, you know?
Ha, Danielle, I went to Catholic school for 6 1/2 years and CCD for another 1 or 2, and then stopped. Never got confirmed or any of that fun stuff. Done with the Church as an institution except for christmas eve to please my grandparents. From my experience having old conservatives angry at you isnt fun, though after seeing them I get to laugh t myself sometimes, like the time they told me to only watch fox news
someone said “you don’t choose who you love”…
The opposite is true, really.
Sure, you may ‘fall in love’ — that kind of love (if you want to call it that) is not chosen, but it’s a choice to love a person beyond that phase.
MK thanks for the clarification. I thought excommunication was permanent and meant she could never confess again and get her sins forgiven… If she was Protestant, that wouldnt be a problem, but confession is necessary for you, isnt it? Do yall confess all sins, or just the ones you can remember, or just the big ones?
Dan,
I go to church Christmas and Easter to sing. That’s it. At the request of my uncle who has now passed away after battling with cancer for five years. I’m planning on still singing there in his memory, but I don’t listen to the service. I hang out in back and read a book.
Danielle,
You do realize that it’s religion that’s almost forcing her to keep a secret from him? If he wasn’t a “devout” Catholic, with most likely a devout Catholic family, she probably would have told him much sooner.
So you’re saying he should compromise his beliefs for her, and respect her right to have an abortion and lie about it, but she shouldn’t respect his beliefs that abortion and lying are wrong and he can’t accept them? Solely because his belief is based on the dirtiest word in the english language (gasp, shudder) religion? Hers is okay because it’s personal belief?
Not buyin’ it. sorry.
mk
No MK, he should simply accept her flaws and all, otherwise it truly isnt love. As I’ve said, people sin, the church acknowledges the fact that no one is perfect. Even if she has had an abortion, she is still welcome at the church, she just cant receive communion as you have provided us. She is still welcome within the church community just as all sinners are, otherwise there would be no church to speak of. If he is truly a devout Catholic he will be able to accept that as well.
Joe, On that note!
~~~~~~~~~~~
To Dance
No Way To Make A Living, Masochism,
Pain, Perfection,
Muscle Spasm, Chiropractors, Short-
Careers, Eating Disorders
Film
Adventure, Tedium, No Family, Boring
Locations,
Dark Rooms, Perfect Faces, Egos,
Money, Hollywood And Sleaze
Music
Food Of Love, Emotion, Mathematics,
Isolation,
Rhythm, Feeling, Power, Harmony,
And Heavy Competition
Anarchy
Revolution, Justice, Screaming For
Solutions,
Forcing Changes, Risk, And Danger
Making Noise And Making Pleas
To Faggots, Lezzies, Dykes, Cross
Dressers Too
To Me
To Me
To Me
To You, And You And You, You And You
To People living With, Living With,
Living With
Not Dying From Disease
Let He Among Us Without Sin
Be The First To Condemn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Last two lines are key. ^_^
I love how RENT is applicable to almost any situation, lol
Danielle,
You’re gettin’ stuck in the abortion thing.
The habit comes from having an abortion to avoid a consequence. AND lying about it. pattern. I see it. This is the type of girl who does not want to take responsibility for herself. She wants to take the path of least resistance. She done it twice in this scenario, and I am of the opinion that she probably does it with most things. I could be wrong, but with the information we have, she has done it twice.
Her motivation is to avoid punishment. The punishment of having a baby, and the punishment of her fiance possibly leaving her. That is cowardice. I would not marry a coward. If you would, that’s okay. I would want to marry someone who is able to look me in the eye and say this is who I am. All of me…
This is what we keep trying to show you…if you will not accept a new life that is created by someone that you supposedly love, then you are not giving your entire selves to each other. You are holding something back.
This girl is holding something back. And I wouldn’t marry her.
mk
this is the problem with being with someone who believes in farytails. You can’t reason with this man, his “faith” is beyond reason. So, although you can’t chose who you fall in love with, you can chose who you marry. She shouldn’t marry anyone who is “pro-life.” I never would.
Rent is awesome!
It’s my goal to be in it a production of it before I die. Then need to get it open to lower budget community theaters soon (I have no shot on Broadway though that would be fun!).
Dan,
Bethany, you dont choose who you love.
I thought you guys were about choice…
mk
MK,
This girl doesn’t want to hold anything back, but her fiance’s beliefs are making her.
She wants to tell him (she stated that), but seeing the judgmental people on this sight (which is probably her greatest fear), I don’t blame her for not doing so.
MK
“The habit comes from having an abortion to avoid a consequence. AND lying about it. pattern. I see it. This is the type of girl who does not want to take responsibility for herself. She wants to take the path of least resistance”
No. you are still being judgemental. You are extrapolating from a single case that is even an extreme case. I don’t think the guy should marry you, either.
And as you are knowledgable about your faith, can you explain Sodom and Gomorrah to me and why it should NOT mean that the unborn are neither people nor always innocent?
Thanks.
“Dan,
Bethany, you dont choose who you love.
MK: I thought you guys were about choice…”
MK, why did you choose to love your significant other? Why did you choose to be heterosexual?
SOMG,I am about to give birth in a few weeks.This will be my third birth.I am aware of the cervix and the dilation process.This is a natural process.With abortion,things are [ouch]jammed into the cervix.Not natural.In childbirth the baby exits the uterus.In abortion the child is scraped from the uterus.I’ve heard tales about abortionists perforating the uterus,intestines,and the bowel.Are you telling me that there is very little risk with abortion[emotional aside]Everyone keeps comparing it with birth.To me,there is no comparison at all.
Danielle,
This girl doesn’t want to hold anything back, but her fiance’s beliefs are making her.
No, she is choosing not to tell him because there might be unpleasant consequences…
In a marriage you don’t hold things back from each other for any reason. Perhaps it’s not me that is being judgmental. Perhaps you are judging my (and her fiances) faith and deciding that it is inconsequential to the matter at hand.
You have been blasting the celebration of the Eucharist for 20 minutes now…something that I hold dearer to my heart than anything in this world.
You have judged my faith, my church, my beliefs and yet you call me judgmental…?
You claim that you have lost respect for me?
I have never, ever, not once, ever made fun of your beliefs. I have disagreed with you, I have chosen not to believe as you do, but I have never made fun of your belief system!
Haha, I got communion cause my parents forced me to go to church (once in my life), looks like another reason I’m going to Hell. But dang those wafers are tasty!
Headline: Pot Calls Kettle Black!
mk
According to Catholic doctrine, God does not forgive excommunicated people. Excommunicated people cannont go to confession or take communion, which is required for God’s forgiveness.
WRONG!
But thanks for playing our game.
MK
MK
the longer you ignore my question, the more I am convinced you have no answer to it because it does not fit your views.
and the more you extrapolate about this girl, the more you give the impression of these women who are the first to gossip about someone who got into a bad situation…who is too ‘good’ to extend a helping hand…how does it feel like being framed by soemthing you say or did about a particular aspect? But since you are doing it repeatedly, maybe speaking of a ‘habit’ is appropriate in your case…
1463 Certain particularly grave sins incur excommunication, the most severe ecclesiastical penalty, which impedes the reception of the sacraments and the exercise of certain ecclesiastical acts, and for which absolution consequently cannot be granted, according to canon law, except by the Pope, the bishop of the place or priests authorized by them. In danger of death any priest, even if deprived of faculties for hearing confessions, can absolve from every sin and excommunication
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,” “by the very commission of the offense,” and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
Excommunicated Catholics are still under obligation to attend Mass, even though they are barred from receiving the Eucharist or even taking active part in the liturgy (reading, bringing the offerings, etc.).[2] Indeed, the excommunicant is encouraged to retain some relationship with the Church, as the goal is to encourage them to repent and return to active participation in its life.
I do stand corrected on the statement that excommunication means ONLY that you can’t participate in the sacraments. Missing mass would not be serious enough to excommunicate you, tho it would prevent you from receiving communion.
A “simple” confession would not be enough to bring fully back into communion. You would, as it states above, need permission from the pope, the bishop or a priest specifically authorized to do so. You would still need to go to confession.
I’m judgmental because I got communion? How’s that? Granted I shouldn’t have, but it was amusing to me. I probably wouldn’t do it now, but it was amusing to see the look on the priest’s face when I took it from his hand instead of having him give it to me.
You haven’t judged me? Hmm, I seem to remember a bunch of you ganging up on me telling me that my boyfriend was just with me for the sex. Way to not judge.
“You have been blasting the celebration of the Eucharist for 20 minutes now…something that I hold dearer to my heart than anything in this world”
Nice to see where your priorities are. I feel bad for your husband and kids.
Samantha,
MK thanks for the clarification. I thought excommunication was permanent and meant she could never confess again and get her sins forgiven… If she was Protestant, that wouldnt be a problem, but confession is necessary for you, isnt it? Do yall confess all sins, or just the ones you can remember, or just the big ones?
You’re welcome but read the correction above.
I just researched it and excommunication is more serious than just being banned from receiving the Eucharist. You would also need a special “pardon” from the Bishop, or a special priest.
My point tho, was that you are NEVER thrown permanently out of the church. You can choose to leave it, but there’s always a way back in.
I have to make dinner, but I realllllly want to address you question about confession, so check back in an hour, okay?
mk
Danielle,
Nice to see where your priorities are. I feel bad for your husband and kids.
My husband feels the same way. The “kids” are a bit young to understand something like this, but they too love the Eucharist. The older ones, are mixed on “their” devotion to the church, some are, some are less so, but they all attend mass and go to confession. Love grows, even in a relationship with God, and they are still young and feeling their way. I have all the faith in the world that they too will love God more than they love me. I wouldn’t want it any other way. When that day comes, I will know that I have done a good job.
Sorry that you can’t grasp this concept. Wish that you could.
mk
Yes,I also feel if you aren’t religious,why mock those of us that ARE? In a world like this,I need more than a boyfriend,husband,friend,family to turn to.To those of you that look to your s/o’s to keep you grounded,I say “Good Luck.” I also say it isn’t gonna work long term.Been there,done that,got the T-shirt,threw it away.Faith is something my soul MUST have.Have you ever come close to death? Ever been so sick and scared you thought you might die? Who did you ask to help you? I call for God. I have seen many,many people pass away.I have yet to meet one that didn’t speak to God at some point.Just a thought.
Danielle,
You haven’t judged me? Hmm, I seem to remember a bunch of you ganging up on me telling me that my boyfriend was just with me for the sex. Way to not judge.
After dinner I’ll look up the post to show you that I did not judge you. I may have judged your behavior, but I thought we had made it clear by now that there is a lifetime of difference between judging a persons actions and judging a person.
I am sorry that you cannot grasp this concept. I wish that you could.
MK
Danielle,
To a person in the Catholic faith a statement like this:
it was amusing to me. I probably wouldn’t do it now, but it was amusing to see the look on the priest’s face when I took it from his hand instead of having him give it to me.
Is extremely offensive. Bordering on blasphemous.
I doubt that if the faith I followed were Islam, that you would be quite so quick with the amusement of their beliefs. Just don’t see you sayin’ “Oh yeah, that Muhammed, what a character. You people are willing to blow yourselves up for this guy. I’m sure your huband and kids can get down with that!”
I’m sorry that you cannot grasp this concept. I wish that you could.
mk
MK,
I know you are ignoring me -leaves me a lot of space to make up my own flattering reasons for it- but from all you are saying you are judging people as well…based on a single action…wow, you have internalized the concept.
Joe,
I know you are ignoring me –
I am one woman. There are nearly a hundred posts here. I have an 11 month old, a six year old and a 10 year old that also want my attention. And I need to feed them now. If you are still here when I get back I will be happy to address any questions you have. Although, I must admit I am a little perplexed by your last statement:
leaves me a lot of space to make up my own flattering reasons for it- but from all you are saying you are judging people as well…based on a single action…wow, you have internalized the concept.
As in, HuH?
mk
Danielle,
I personally think it’s a good sign that your boyfriend has seen you at your worst and is still there supporting you. Cutting is some serious business and the fact that he’s there for you says something about him, in my opinion.
Just a thought.
Danielle,
To a person in the Catholic faith a statement like this:
it was amusing to me. I probably wouldn’t do it now, but it was amusing to see the look on the priest’s face when I took it from his hand instead of having him give it to me.
Is extremely offensive. Bordering on blasphemous.
I doubt that if the faith I followed were Islam, that you would be quite so quick with the amusement of their beliefs. Just don’t see you sayin’ “Oh yeah, that Muhammed, what a character. You people are willing to blow yourselves up for this guy. I’m sure your huband and kids can get down with that!”
I’m sorry that you cannot grasp this concept. I wish that you could.
mk
MK, She gets it… she has to. There’s no way anyone could be as ignorant as to think saying such offensive things would be taken well.
I feel the need to make it clear that there is certainly a distinction between faith in God and Jesus and faith in the Church. I have very little faith in the Church itself. My faith lies in God and Jesus, not the Church, nor amazingly enough, do I have infallible faith in the Bible. I do not believe it to be the Word of God, but the interpretation of God’s Word by a group of men, and we are then left to interpret those interpretations. Doesnt quite do i for me. My faith rests in God and Jesus, I feel that they guide through once conscience, and leave you to make your own decisions on what you think is best for you and those around you.
I do my best to lead a good life, the res is up to Him and His mercy in my own opinion.
Danielle,
To a person in the Catholic faith a statement like this:
it was amusing to me. I probably wouldn’t do it now, but it was amusing to see the look on the priest’s face when I took it from his hand instead of having him give it to me.
Is extremely offensive. Bordering on blasphemous.
I doubt that if the faith I followed were Islam, that you would be quite so quick with the amusement of their beliefs. Just don’t see you sayin’ “Oh yeah, that Muhammed, what a character. You people are willing to blow yourselves up for this guy. I’m sure your huband and kids can get down with that!”
I’m sorry that you cannot grasp this concept. I wish that you could.
mk
MK, She gets it… she has to. There’s no way anyone could be as ignorant as to think saying such offensive things would be taken well.
Wow,Danielle.That came as a shock!I really wasn’t directing my post @ you,but you aren’t the first person to tell me to F*** off and I’m sure you won’t be the last.
Danielle
I don;t know you- but please don’t let anyone get under your skin like that … and if they do, don;t let them know, hun (this is not a patronizing hun and if it comes across as such I apologize). You have a wonderful boyfriend from what I can gather, and you are the one who knows what this relationship means to you. You don’t need the opinions of other people in that matter :-). especially not people of this kind.
Heather,
I agree, but the women here seem to think that he’s in it just for the sex. Not a very good thing to say with some one who already has self-esteem issues, but whatever.
As has been stated before, Danielle, no one knows your relationship better than you do. Don’t let what people say get to you.
Danielle, dont take what they’re saying about your boyfriend to heart. ANY (and i want to emphasize that for a reason) set of belief systems taken beyond a point can lead to unjust assumption, even if it is unintentional. Try and feel confident in the fact that you know otherwise and let them say what they want to say.
Joe,
Thanks. It’s just hard sometimes to not let it get under your skin when it’s coming at you from all angles. I know how great my boyfriend is and I was extremely disappointed in myself for letting them get to me in a way that they did. I’m lucky that I have such an understanding boyfriend. We sat down and read what they had posted on here together and talked about it. It made me feel much better.
Danielle
I guess it depends on how yo feel when you come to a blog like this. Don;t do it when you are feeling down or vulnerable…people can be hurtful and you don;t need to expose yourself to that. Just keep in mind that some people here have been raised with a completely different mind set or have acquired a mind set diamterically opposed to yours. They need to tell themselves all men are pigs so their keep-your-effing-legs-shut rule makes sense. Not all men are pigs. You;d be surprised how many happily do not have sex when their girl friend asks them to wait or to even wait until marriage. I think your bf is in that category.
Danielle, I’m asking this with all sincerity, because I honestly am worried about you.
With your depression and everything going on in your life, I honestly don’t understand why you come to all these abortion discussion forums, getting yourself worked up? Why not go somewhere a little more positive, if you have found that being here (and other places not nearly as moderated) effects you in such an emotional way?
I just don’t understand why you wouldn’t choose a better place to visit, somewhere non-confrontational…somewhere where you’re just chatting with your friends, and sharing happier thoughts. Why come to a place where you’re going to get involved in heated debate?
I’m just curious and honestly wish I could help you, because you sound like you’re taking things way too hard. I can’t understand it.
Bethany,
I could be wrong here, and I’m not trying to speak for Danielle, but I think a lot of that had to do with the fact that she was told that her boyfriend was only with her for sex.
That’s it.
There might be more to it, but that’s just from what I’ve gathered.
That is not an answer to my question, Heather. Did you read my post at all?
Maybe I didn’t make it clear, it could be the way I worded it…what I’m asking is why would she come to a place, time and time again, to the same place where she keeps getting worked up and upset?
Why would she do that to herself when she she obviously has many emotional issues and doesn’t need all the negativity in her life. Why not go somewhere more positive?
Bethany,
You’d be surprised how many people I’ve found who have been supportive of me through things like this. Not here. Considering the fact that most of the pro-choicers here are already friends to begin with.
But I have never found a supportive pro-lifer ever. I’ve actually been told by a lifer that my depression is because I don’t believe in God and I’ve asked for it.
In a different group, I have found people who are going through the same things that I have, and we do have nice conversations. We’re actually talking about Harry Potter (in a group made to discuss abortion).
I normally don’t let it get under my skin what people like pro-lifers have to say about me. I usually laugh at it. But when it comes to my relationship, I do tend to freak out a bit. It’s hard to believe that someone could really love you when no one else in your life has. And I get really ticked off when pro-lifers trying to act like they know my boyfriend tell me he’s only in it for the sex. Especially after sharing all of the things that he’s done for me. It just makes you look really dumb.
“mom of 3”, you wrote: “I’ve heard tales about abortionists perforating the uterus,intestines,and the bowel.”
“Intestines” and “the bowel” are the same thing. You should try not to write like a kid. Sloppy writing leads to sloppy thinking. And whatever word you use, perforating the bowel during early abortion is rare. Just because you’ve heard “tales” doesn’t mean it happens with any frequency. “Tales” are just anecdotes, and anecdotes prove nothing.
Perforating the uterus is less rare than perforating the bowel. But guess what: Most uterine perforations are subclinical (that means, they require no care and cause no problems). They heal right up and cause no trouble except in special cases.
You wrote: “Are you telling me that there is very little risk with abortion” With abortion early in pregnancy, yes. (Your OB/GYN will tell you the same thing, if you ask about it.) Later in pregnancy, the risks of abortion are greater, but they still are substantially less than the risks associated with full-term live birth.
Once again, from JAMA: “Legal-abortion mortality between 1979 and 1985 was 0.6 death per 100,000 procedures, more than 10 times lower than the 9.1 maternal deaths per 100,000 live births between 1979 and 1986. Serious complications from legal abortion are rare. ” How many times do I have to post this to you before you read and understand it? Maybe you have a learning disability? I know this is the third or fourth time I have posted this JAMA quotation in posts addressed specifically to you.
You wrote: “[Birth] is a natural process. With abortion,things are [ouch]jammed into the cervix.Not natural”
I wouldn’t say “jammed”. I would say, “slid gently”. You start with a very thin dilator and gradually progress to thicker ones until the cervix is dilated 12 mm or so.
And what’s so great about “natural”? All kinds of dangerous things are natural. Cancer is natural; the surgery that cures cancer is unnatural.
Heather,
Yeah, I was really upset by the fact that about four different people kept on saying over and over again that my boyfriend was only with me for the sex and that if I told him I didn’t want to have sex anymore that he would be gone in an instant.
At first I found it laughable. Then I got defensive over my boyfriend because he’s an awesome guy who doesn’t deserve to have sh*t said about him. Then I started to doubt myself and the capability of anyone to love someone like me.
You say “you” as if we all were attacking you, Danielle.
As for no one pro-life being supportive of you, where have I personally not been supportive of you?
Where has MK not been supportive of you?
Now,I’m not talking about agreeing with you, but I’m talking about being a friend, being someone who you could actually talk to in private and not have to worry about being personally attacked.
Or do you mean by supportive that we agree with everything you say? Because I surely don’t agree with many of the things you say, but I do know I care about you, and if you ever needed anything, even though I don’t know you, I would be more than happy to help you out.
Danielle,I wasn’t aware that you were harming yourself.I’m not an ogre, just a female like you.I’m sorry.I genuinely am.I’m only speaking from personal past experiences when you see my posts. What is a bright, intelligent girl like you doing this for?? Gee,I didn’t realize you were in this much despair.I know that people cut themselves because it releases deep,emotional pain from within.I remember you saying that your mom really stuck it to you several times Danielle.This makes me sad.I’m really sorry that you and your mom have a strained relationship.Actually,I’m rather speechless at the moment.MK,Bethany,anybody?
SOMG
cancer treatment is not unnatural. it is what we created and we are created by God as all nature is. How is cancer treament more unnatural than the fact that we need a shelter to survive?
Just because some natural things were there first does not mean they are more natural than others. THEY Might be more basic, but not really more natural.A dn I agree, why is ‘natural’ a qualifier for being ‘good’? Throughout history mankind has been fighting natural things (destroying its own cradle and life-support in doing so, but oh well).
and if you wanna argue human;s are above nature or set apart from it, then I don;t understand why people would arbitrarily evoke ‘natural’ processes to make a moral point. you can;t have it both ways without looking so inconsistent that your point of view looks like your own subjective feeling and idea, not anything all people should do.
SOMG,I shall try not to be child-like anymore.My personal mission in life is to make you happy.Are you an abortion provider?I’ve been reading enough of your posts, and I’m now pretty sure of it.Why not just say so?
Joe,thanks for that.
Erm, if my post looked like an attack on SOMG, then I did a bad job bringing across my point.
Because from what I said you can easily extrapolate that abortion and BC are also natural…and therefore, ‘Natural Family Planning’ assumes a broader meaning…something tells me you don’t like that too much.
Joe, you wrote: “cancer treatment is not unnatural. it is what we created and we are created by God as all nature is. ”
By this argument, abortion is not unnatural either.
“mom of 3”: All you need to know about my personal involvement with abortion is this: I am better informed than Jill Stanek, and unlike Jill Stanek, I do not post false or misleading information.
man read my other post. I realize my post to you looks like an attack but it was meant as the opposite.
what yu say is exactly true, which is why in case anti=abortion activists wanna make a point that can;t be shredded apart quite easily they should leave the arbitrary or damaging natural argument out.
I can understand being against abortion. I don’t agree, but I can understand. I really cannot comprehend this belief in “god” however. It’s so absurd.
I’ve got the sneaking suspicion that we (both pro-lifers and pro-choicers) have little idea about how special human life is …. never in human existence have humans made anything alive that was dead matter … zip!
Perhaps a wee bit of math: if the number of connections of a human neurons [each neuron acting like the on’/off switch of a computer and the number could be written as zeros] …. it would take (writing one zero per second … for 12 hours each day) …. 12 years to complete. All planets in the universe would take 4 minutes. OR, if the smallest particle in the universe (a quark) could be jammed together, this amount would fit 16 of our known universe.
This is ‘each’ brain. And neurons are not like computer switches (off/on) but instead go 50 – 1000 connections.
I am absolutely in awe of our brain capacities, and would shudder at the arrogance of eliminating this … even as a potential.
Gary, 4:47p, said: “So, although you can’t chose who you fall in love with, you can chose who you marry. She shouldn’t marry anyone who is “pro-life.” I never would.”
Gary, the feeling would be mutual. A committed pro-lifer would never marry a pro-abort.
agreed Jill. I’ve been with women of different races, financial situations, and educational level. All can work. But different views of religion/abortion is not something you can manage, in my opinion.
The woman in this article is not pro-life. She is not unhappy about her abortion. She infers her future husband would have a different view.
It’s a significant different world-view.
Gary,
I agree. I think you can tell a lot about a person based on that view alone.
(Yeah, yeah, yeah…I hear ya…judgmental!!! they all cry…)
You’re startin’ to sound like the chorus in a Greek Tragedy…
Danielle,
It seems you have left for the night.
I’m sorry that it is so hard for you sometimes.
Try to remember that sometimes we are a “we” and sometimes we are individuals.
Many of us hear have grown very fond of you and mean you no harm. Certainly, we don’t want you crying, or hurting yourself over stuff that gets said in the heat of an argument.
But truly, you do know how to push our buttons.
How ’bout we have a secret code? Only we’ll let everyone in on the secret. When you feel that it’s getting too intense and your feelings are really getting out of control, but you just can’t leave (cuz you know, we’re all addicted to this place) you just type “soft music”, then we’ll know to tone it down and maybe not address you directly for a few minutes.
We’re not brutes. We just play them on Jill’s site. I personally have actually been known to be kind to puppies. It’s true. Once.
Okay babe? Chin up? No more tears? Big hugs?
Tickle, tickle? Chicken soup?
You’re all right Danielle. And for the most part you’re safe here, but you have to let us know what’s goin’ on. Okay?
mk
Wow. I’ve read the article plus every comment on it, and I’ve a few comments of my own to add.
First off, Danielle: I don’t know you, but the fact that you and your boyfriend could sit down and talk about this shows GREAT amounts of maturity. I know that I have absolutely horrible communication skills (working on it!), so seeing the fact that you and your boyfriend can talk well enough to do that…it’s amazing. It speaks volumes about the maturity and connection of the relationship. I know people who are married who couldn’t do that.
As to the topic at hand, I have the utmost sympathy for the woman. Irony of ironies, I have managed to become quite attached (engaged) to a man who is very religious and very much personally pro-life. Now, he has no desire to legislate his views or force them upon me, and realizes that whatever happens, it is my choice. I am by no means religious, however: after threeish years of Catholicism, I have a deep distrust for organized religion and a bitterness for Christianity in general. My fianc
Samantha,
Whew! a moment to think! Where’d everybody go? I left for dinner, came back to find all hell had broken loose, and everyone gone…
That’s okay. It’ll give me a chance to explain confession.
Think of your soul as a crystal. Those really cool ones you hang in the window, that make rainbows when the sunshines through them.
Now think of God as the sun. The Sun (God) must be able to shine through the crystal (your soul) in order to make these rainbows (work in your life)
Think of sin and dirt. When the crystal is clean, it sparkles. But if you touch it, you will leave a fingerprint. (sin). This fingerprint will attract more dirt. (more sin). Then you touch it again. and again. The sun shining through gets weaker and weaker and weaker. Often you don’t even notice it, until one day you look around and see that there are no rainbows. The sun is still shining, but what the heck? No bows.
So, you take the crystal down. Squirt it with a little windex, hang it back up and voila! More rainbows!
When you commit sin, it attracts more sin. Sin keeps God from working within you. Small sins (venial) aren’t so bad, until they accumulate. Mortal sins would be like dropping your crystal in mud.
Venial sins can be confessed to God without the action of a priest. White lies. Crabbiness. Lack of charity. But grave or mortal sins, those which put in “mortal” danger of losing the privelege of heaven, must be confessed to a priest.
At the mass we make a confession of sin to God before communion, when we say, Lord I am not Worthy to receive you, but only say the words and my soul shall be healed.
You may receive communion with small sins on your soul because of this confession.
But you may not receive communion with a mortal sin on your soul.
The other thing that happens with confession is that you receive grace. Now I’ll probably get into trouble if the “authorities” ever find out that I described grace this way, but I can’t help it. I always feel as tho it’s like fairy dust…sparkly and shiny and soft and floating down all around you and covering your hair and face and hands and…
A more accurate description comes from the catechism…
1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification
and:
2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.
and:
2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 However, according to the Lord’s words “Thus you will know them by their fruits”57 – reflection on God’s blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.
What does it do? It strengthens us. It makes it easier to do the right thing. It makes it easier for us to discern evil. It makes us strong enough to fight off temptation and it makes us hunger and thirst for more…more grace, more goodness, more God.
Every time we go to confession, we are not only forgiven of our sins but we receive this grace.
That is why we go often, even without mortal sins on our soul.
If you haven’t been to confession in a long time, then you need to find a “good” priest, and tell him so. He’ll ask you to remember as many sins as you can (unless he’s like Padre Pio and can read your soul, then he’ll fill in the blanks for you) When I went back for the first time it took hours. The priest was wonderful. He hugged me at the end and I felt a thousand pounds lighter.
After a good confession, your soul is as clean as the day you were baptized, when original sin was removed and before you had a chance to muck it up again.
In my next post I’m going to tell you about an amazing saint. Saint Faustina. A very important day is coming up. She also gave us some really intense warnings…
By the way, today is the anniversary of Pope John Paul II death. By this time next year, he will most likely have canonized. Until then,
We love you Papa John, and we miss you.
mk
MK
Less, 8:49p, said: “Irony of ironies, I have managed to become quite attached (engaged) to a man who is very religious and very much personally pro-life. Now, he has no desire to legislate his views or force them upon me, and realizes that whatever happens, it is my choice.”
There’s something wrong with this picture. No “very religious” and “very much personally pro-life” man would cordially agree for you to abort his baby, sorry.
MK: Just wanted to put this out there: I’m not Catholic, and even I agree that Pope John II was an amazing man. Also, oddly enough, that was the exact way confession was described to me when I went through First Communion classes! Very good description, I must say.
Jill: If that’s how you define pro-life, that’s great, and if that’s what you see as being religious, again: that’s your prerogative. I don’t believe that it is up to you to define these concepts, however. I’m sorry that you can’t grasp the concept that he understands so well: that it’s my body, and I would be the one who would be forced to carry the child. He dislikes the idea that I would abort, but accepts that it would be my choice. He also accepts that my reaction to being pregnant would be identical, regardless of whether or not I had a ring on my finger.
Yes, our views occasionally conflict: there are several issues that we simply do not agree on. We are content with this, however, and quite enjoy the dialogue that our differences provoke.
Jill, there are pro lifers out there that recognize not everyone will follow their views, and will not push them on their friends or loved ones. Relations may be strained at times, but it can work out. He recognizes that ultimately it is Less’ choice, not just because its her body, but because law dictates it that way. No relationship can be perfect, which means that some ideals of each most likely will clash in some way. I agree that prolife vs pro-choice is one of the bigger clashes, ass well as religous vsd non religious, but to be lame and cheesy:
“Love conquers all”
Less, my point is simply that your guy is not the committed pro-lifer you attempted to portray him to be. A committed pro-lifer is not a a “personally-pro-life-but-it’s-your-choice” type of person. A committed pro-lifer would never “grasp” the concept that the woman he loves would be willing to abort their baby. In fact, a committed pro-lifer would be repulsed by the woman who says she would feel “forced” to carry his baby. It really doesn’t matter. You’ve agreed on this type of love. Just don’t sully the word “pro-life” in the process.
Saint Faustina was a polish nun who lived from 1905 to 1933.
She received visions of Jesus and he asked her to have a portrait done of him. He wanted it to show two rays of light coming out from him. A white ray, which symbolizes water which souls able to fight the good fight. A red ray, which symbolizes blood and stands for these souls.
This picture is called Jesus of the Divine Mercy.
God is three beings in One. He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Each one has a different personality and a different purpose.
The Father, metes out justice. This is who ruled the old testament. Wiping out towns, sending locusts, but also providing food and water to the Israelites in the desert. He is a loving God. But just. You get exactly what you deserve.
Jesus, is mercy. Mercy is when you deserve punishment, but it is held back because of love.
He is the reason we are forgiven.
A running theme in most of the apparitions is tha the Father is pushing to mete out Justice, but Jesus and Mary are pleading for Mercy. In many of the apparitions Mary is begging us to listen to her “because she can’t hold back the hand of the Father for much longer.”
Every prayer we say, and every sacrifice that we make, buys a little more time. A little more time for one more soul to squeak in past the gate. That’s why I am so strong, so pushy. I believe time is running out and I want everyone of you to come with me. The thought of missing a soul, or losing a soul because I was silent when I should have spoken up? Honestly, I can’t take the guilt…so, I gotta big mouth.
In some of the apparitions people have been shown a clock and it’s a minute before midnight. In others they are shown a cup and it is full and about to overflow. That is how close we are.
So, anyway, some of the things that Jesus told Faustina are:
You will prepare the world for My final coming. (Diary 429)
Speak to the world about My mercy … It is a sign for the end times. After it will come the Day of Justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fountain of My mercy. (Diary 848)
Tell souls about this great mercy of Mine, because the awful day, the day of My justice, is near. (Diary 965).
I am prolonging the time of mercy for the sake of sinners. But woe to them if they do not recognize this time of My visitation. (Diary 1160)
Before the Day of Justice, I am sending the Day of Mercy. (Diary 1588)
He who refuses to pass through the door of My mercy must pass through the door of My justice. (Diary 1146).
In addition, Mary appeared to her and said:
You have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for granting mercy. (Diary 635).
So how do we get this mercy?
This is so awesome.
Three O’clock is the hour of His greatest mercy because that is the hour that He died. So he gave Faustina a prayer called the Divine Mercy Chaplet and asked that we pray it at three O’clock every afternoon.
But, and this is where it gets really cool:
On Divine Mercy Sunday, which is the Sunday after Easter, :
Whoever approaches the Fountain of Life on this day will be granted complete forgiveness of sins and punishment. (Diary 300)
The soul that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion shall obtain complete forgiveness of sins and punishment.*
Do you know what that means to us Catholics. That not only will you be forgiven of even the worst sins, but you’ll be let off of purgatory time too.
NO PUNISHMENT…ONLY MERCY!!!
He goes on:
On that day all the divine floodgates through which grace flow are opened. Let no soul fear to draw near to Me, even though its sins be as scarlet. My mercy is so great that no mind, be it of man or of angel, will be able to fathom it throughout all eternity.
That’s it…and of course the hard part, intending to sin no more…
But that’s not all. Any soul who approaches Him at this hour will also be granted any favors asked of Him provided they don’t go directly against His will. He says:
At three o’clock, implore My mercy, especially for sinners; and, if only for a brief moment, immerse yourself in My Passion, particularly in My abandonment at the moment of agony. This is the hour of great mercy … In this hour I will refuse nothing to the soul that makes a request of Me in virtue of My Passion. (Diary 1320).
As often as you hear the clock strike the third hour immerse yourself completely in My mercy, adoring and glorifying it, invoke it’s omnipotence for the whole world, and particularly for poor sinners, for at that moment mercy was opened wide for every soul. In this hour you can obtain everything for yourself and for others for the asking; it was the hour of grace for the whole world – mercy triumphed over justice.
I just love this day. So did Pope John Paul II. As a matter of fact, in the year that he died, Divine Mercy Sunday fell on the day he died. He is the one who canonized Faustina.
Some other things that Jesus told her about the end times:
At eight o’clock I was seized with such violent pains that I had to go to bed at once. I was convulsed with pain for three hours….. No medicine had any effect on me, and whatever I swallowed I threw up. At times, the pain caused me to lose consciousness. Jesus had me realise that in this way I took part in His Agony in the Garden, and that He himself allowed these sufferings in order to offer reparation to God for the souls murdered in the wombs of [their] mothers(1276)
Write this: before I come as the just Judge, I am coming first as the King of Mercy. Before the day of justice arrives, there will be given to people a sign in the heavens of this sort: All light in the heavens will be extinguished, and there will be great darkness over the whole earth. Then the sign of the cross will be seen in the sky, and from the openings where the hands and the feet of the Saviour were nailed will come forth great lights which will light up the earth for a period of time. This will take place shortly before the last day. (83)
As I was praying for Poland, I heard the words: I bear a special love for Poland, and if she will be obedient to My will, I will exalt her in might and holiness. From her will come the spark that will prepare the world for My final coming. (1732)
Many people think this spark was John Paul II.
Today I heard the words: In the Old Covenant I sent prophets wielding thunderbolts to My people. Today I am sending you with My mercy to the people of the whole world. I do not want to punish aching mankind, but I desire to heal it, pressing it to My merciful Heart. I use punishment when they themselves force Me to do so; My hand is reluctant to take hold of the sword of justice. Before the Day of Justice I am sending the Day of Mercy. (1588)
You can read more here;
http://www.ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/backgr.htm
and here:
http://www.catholic-forum.com/catholicteacher/divinemercy1.htm
Okay, dive in!
MK
If that’s how you see the pro-life movement, Jill, that’s how you see it. To me, your view of a “committed pro-lifer” is someone who is quite judgemental and condemning. While the majority of “pro-lifers” I’ve met are simply against sex, the true “pro-lifers” seem to universily be willing to put aside the issue of making abortion illegal, and are more committed to ending unwanted pregnancies. I have been blessed to know a few of these individuals, and while I disagree with them, I do respect their principles.
To everyone who is on right no, I apologize for the long theology lessons. Sam has been asking me a lot of questions and with Jill’s permission we have been pursuing them.
I try really hard to put them on when I think it’s quiet. They take a long time to research and sometimes, even tho no one was here when I left, they are when I get back.
So just skip them. And again, I’m sorry.
MK
MK: I must say, I find your lessons very interesting. The Saints are absolutely facinating, and I love the stories about prophesies and the like. Don’t appologize at all!
Thank you Less. They do give you pause, don’t they?
MK
Less, 9:45p, said: “While the majority of ‘pro-lifers’ I’ve met are simply against sex…”
Less, please don’t exaggerate. You know that statement was ridiculous and immature. We’re talking about the father of your agreed upon aborted children. He’s not pro-life. No pro-lifer would agree to aborting children, particularly his own, that’s all.
Jill on the rash assumption that you do not know every very religious/very pro-life man in the world, I would say that you dont know how they feel and you cant speak for them.
Sam,
I don’t think it’s about doubting that her boyfriend feels this way.
It’s about this makes him not truly pro-life.
Think about it. Many of the Pro-choicers on this site prefer us to use the term “pro-choice” because they claim they are not “for” abortion, but rather they are for the right of each women to make her own “choice”.
So by your own definitions, her boyfriend would be pro-choice and not pro-life. Does that make sense?
It’s sort of like the Hannity thing. Claiming your catholic except you don’t agree with all of the catholic teachings. This would make you a Christian who happens to agree with much of the Catholic church but not enough to be a full fledged practicing Catholic.
Saying you are against abortion for yourself but okay with other people choosing it, makes you pro-choice, not pro-life.
It’s like you guys can’t make up the rules for “our” club sort of a thing.
mk
MK: You know, I can’t even remember a time where the stories of the saints didn’t give me pause. We recently had a lecture on campus about the origins of martyrdom in Christianity: that was fascinating as well. I used to live overseas, and I frequently went to various saint’s sites, especially in Italy. There were a few that just had this air about them; it was wonderful.
Jill: I’m sorry you find my statement immature, but that’s how it is, in my experience. Perhaps it has simply been the majority of the pro-lifers I’ve talked to, but all seemed to have sexism or an inherent repression of sexuality at the core of their ideologies. I know not all are like this: I understand that occasionally one crops up who is honestly for life, and this is a perfectly respectable position. My fiance would certainly prefer I don’t abort a possible child, as he believes it to be murder. He dislikes the very idea of abortion. He simply recognizes that he would not want to force me into carrying a child. We both work towards eliminating unwanted pregnancy (we espouse actual sex-ed, for example).
I recognize that we won’t agree on this, however: you see things very differently from I.
MK: Okay, the club rules thing did make sense. I can see how he wouldn’t be considered traditionally pro-life, but I’m honestly not sure what other category to put him in? As I mentioned, he would be against all abortions on the grounds that it is murder, but understands that making legislation about it isn’t going to do much. Thus he goes about other ways. He works towards a day where abortion isn’t needed, though he understands that this is incredibly idealistic.
So he doesn’t really fit into either camp, I suppose. Ah well, c’est la vie. Sorry for stirring up a ruccus that didn’t seem to be related to the topic at hand!
Samantha, 9:53p: You’re in my world now. You have no idea how nauseating a pro-life man would find the thought that the woman he loved would purposefully kill their baby. There would be no lasting attraction to such a woman.
Less, 10:05p: If your fiance believes abortion is murder but says he is willing to let you commit murder – of your own child, no less – you don’t get it. He’s blowing smoke.
Jill: I suppose we’d find out what his stance truly was if that situation was to ever come up. As we are both very committed to that never happening, however, I choose to take him at his word. I trust him, and realize that if he left, that would be his choice: I doubt that he would, but unfortunately, there would be no “lasting attraction” on my side to a man who would force me to bear a child. If it came down to it and our values were really that different, it would be best to part ways.
Ultimately, I tend to think that words are cheap, and his actions in such a situation would speak more than anything he could say. Until such a time that actions are necessary, I trust him, and trust that he would understand my side of things, even if he wouldn’t agree. That understanding is part of my attraction to him, and the trust I have for him has been very much earned.
Momof3 how are you and the little one doing? Picked out that middle name yet?
It is not clear as to whether or not this couple is having pre-marital sex. For the sake of argument I will assume because he is religious they are not, however, I realize that just being religious does’t mean anything. We are all sinners.
However, to start a marriage under false pretenses is absolutely a recipe for disaster.
The Bible says your sins will find you out and no matter how much we try to hide them, a loving God will have them revealed so as to heal them. God will not be mocked.
The other notable item is how this woman seems to be blaming the fact that she got pregnant because she didn’t know about safe sex and her family wasn’t very religious, rather than realizing and admitting that she sinned against God. Guilt does’t come from God but satan who uses it to destroy us. The guilt is a result of the fear of being found out or caught. God’s conviction helps us to understand that we sinned and realize that we can go to HIm for forgiveness. So guilt is from fear and conviction is from faith.
Further, she seems to be able to justify the abortion simply because she considered the abortion for a long time as if that changed the fact that an innocent child was killed. She is sure that she made the right decision simply because she has not yet reaped any of the fruit of her destructive choice. It’s starting to show it’s ugly face in this very dilemma she is now facing and this is just the beginning. It will only get worse until she goes to God and she fully surrenders to His mercy and love.
This woman should not get married at all since she suffers from a severe case of self-delusion and self-deception. No doubt, things will come up in the course of a marriage that she will use the same type of reasoning for, i.e., having an affair. It will go like this….”I didn’t mean for it to happen”, “It was just one time”, “I felt so lonely”. No, this woman needs to do a total soul search and then and only then after proving herself faithful in little things, prove that she can handle the big thing of marriage.
Until then, it would be insane to marry a person like this.
Less, 10:21p: You misunderstand. When I said your boyfriend was “blowing smoke,” it was in regard to his telling you he is “very religious” and “very much personally pro-life.” He’s lying to someone, either you or himself, if he let you abort his baby.
You said, “unfortunately, there would be no ‘lasting attraction’ on my side to a man who would force me to bear a child.”
You’re right about one thing. Should the day arrive that you become pregnant and abort, your relationship will likely end, but not for the reason you expect. If your boyfriend is “personally pro-life,” he won’t be able to live with your decision. And you will never forgive him for letting you abort your baby. In reality, most relationships fail after abortion.
Less, you said, “If it came down to it and our values were really that different, it would be best to part ways.”
Exactly what “values” would allow you to abort your baby?
Okay, MK, I know you wrote this a long time ago, but it actually made me groan out loud, so you’ll forgive my late comment:
“I thought you guys were about choice…”
Come on, MK. That’s a stretch. Yes, we’re about the choice of a woman to have an abortion. Does a cancer patient choose to have cancer? No. Does a person choose to fall in love? Nooo way.
Sometimes we don’t have the choice of choice.
Well, in general, I am not a big fan of this post because it gives you know choice but to judge the poor woman. I’m sooooo against that. We don’t know her. There could be a million more things about her that would change our opinions.
Those are just my thoughts.
Leah
Leah,
While you may not choose who you have intense physical reactions to, you most certainly can choose whom you wish to love.
Love is not feeling. It is not a noun. It is a verb. And just like choosing whether or not to abort your child (an action) loving someone is also a choice. (an action)
I am of the belief that you cannot even truly say to a person, until one of you are on your death bed, that have (past tense) loved them.
It is a choice that you make every single day. Over and over and over. When he irritates the heck out of you, you decide to “love” him. When he lets his toenails grow too long, you continue to “love” him. When he grows old and bald and fat, you choose to keep on loving him.
Even if, God forbid, he enters a state of being much like Terri Schiavo’s, you are required to make the decision to “love” him.
Because of and in spite of who he is.
Anything else is just emotion. And as we all know, emotions change. But love does not. It remains constant.
So once you say the words “I do”, then you must.
Once you enter into a covenant with another person, you are required, of your own free will, to honor the promises that you made.
The promise to “love” one another, even when you don’t “feel” like it.
This is why I say it is ironic that say you can choose to kill your own child based on feelings, but that you cannot choose whom to love because you can’t control your feelings.
Feelings are passive.
Love is active.
mk
Jill: I tend to think that, while religion certainly does affect how you think about abortion, it ought not serve as an excuse to push those thoughts upon others. He has shown himself to be very religious by his intense devotion to his faith (even his views on abortion agree with his denomination’s official stance)and his general attitude of love and forgiveness. If you define religion solely upon a person’s stance on abortion, I tend to think you have a very limited view of religion and its affect upon the worldview of those who are religious.
As to whether or not I could ‘forgive him for allowing me to abort the baby,’ I believe I could very easily thank him for allowing me to abort the fetus. I highly doubt that, as you are not me, you could say otherwise. If the relationship ends, than the relatinship ends, and I accept this. I’ve known women who have had abortions after marriage and are still with their spouses: abortion isn’t an automatic relationship killer. Something I think that people tend to overlook is that abortions have been around since before the Greco-Roman time. It isn’t as though abortion is some new thing. I highly doubt that every single relationship ever where abortion is involved breaks apart. That does tend to happen in a sexually repressed and generally intolerant society, however, which is why I believe it is a problem in the US.
I am a very tolerant person, with a very realistic sense of what I am capable of. I am one hundered perecent sure that a pregnancy right now, at this very moment, would be not in the fetus’s best interest, nor in mine (luckily such a pregnancy would be impossible at the moment). I am simply not capable of it. This realistic view of myself and my current place in the world is what would allow me to abort, in the unlikely circumstance where an abortion would be required.
Something I think that people tend to overlook is that abortions have been around since before the Greco-Roman time. It isn’t as though abortion is some new thing.
Pro-life people do not overlook this fact. It just doesn’t change anything. It’s like saying rape is ok because it’s been around since the beginning of time. How silly, right?
And since the beginning of time, rape has been considered wrong. Even in Leviticus, rape is punished (albeit not severely). Hammurabi’s Code mentions the death penalty for rape. The vast majority of societies consider rape wrong, and have for hundreds of years.
That would be the difference.
What about slavery, Less? Is slavery really wrong, or is it ok because it’s not always been considered a crime by societies? Should we make it legal again because since the beginning of time, there have been slave owners?
Bethany, slavery as it is now known existed because people believed other races to be inferior and saw them essentially as animals. And since I can see this come back coming, no one sees (or should see) fetuses as not human. Just because they are humans means essentially nothing in terms of bodily integrity.
Bethany, slavery as it is now known existed because people believed other races to be inferior and saw them essentially as animals. And since I can see this come back coming, no one sees (or should see) fetuses as not human. Just because they are humans means essentially nothing in terms of bodily integrity.
That doesn’t really answer my question, Dan. I didn’t ask why slavery was ok…I said since it was ok previously, then shouldn’t it be ok today, using the same logic that Less used to say that abortion was ok because it is nothing new?
Jeez, Jill, you really enjoy naysaying about other people’s relationships don’t you?
Slavery isnt ok because it involves depriving people of their rights as citizens of their country. Fetuses are not considered citizens of any country and thus have no rights once so ever.
and, if it was given rights, abortion would still be legal in terms of right to bodily integrity. Nothing, person or otherwise, is allowed to use your body/organs without consent. In terms of a developing fetus, the woman who gets pregnant is not giving consent to the fetus to use the organ, the unfortunate byproduct is that the fetus dies.
Wow, Jill. You’re not kidding.
I believe she needs to tell him. She knows that it would substantially affect their relationship, and to withhold it would be to perpetrate a fraud. (Grounds for annulment, by the way, meaning that their new marriage starts out as invalid).
This is the most troubling of all. I think this is a fundamental difference in belief that would doom a marriage.
It looks like she likes the benefits of a strong, faithful and moral guy without all that dogmatic baggage that’s associated with it (like needing to conform to some standard of behavior).
“It looks like she likes the benefits of a strong, faithful and moral guy without all that dogmatic baggage that’s associated with it (like needing to conform to some standard of behavior).”
Inter-faith marriages can work out perfectly fine,faith shouldnt be the heart of an issue within a marriage. Not to mention, the things that are mentioned can certainly occur within guys that are not very religious. There are other reasons why she would love him aside from his personal faith and standards.
Danielle,
He doesn’t love her, he loves a carefully crafted construct that is not her. He doesn’t know that the woman he’s with killed her unborn child and to this day doesn’t believe it was or is wrong.
Kind of like finding out that someone you love is a child molester. Not only are they a child molester, but they don’t believe child molestation is wrong, and if they had the same situation they would do it again.
Tony, I think there is a HUGE difference between not telling someone they had an abortion when they were in high school, and not regretting it, and child molestation. the two are simply not comparable.
Ideally should there be any secrets in a relationship? No, but at the same time just because she didnt tell her fiance about something that happened somewhere close to ten years ago, if not even farther ago, does not mean she “constructed” herself. I assume that she didnt meet her fiance until she was in college, and most likely they didnt start dating right away. For all we know there could have been a large gap between the abortion and her beginning to date the fiance. The point is that most likely she was back to how she was before the abortion by the time they started dating, i.e. herself, not some “construction”. Just because she did something that was completely legal when she was in high school, and not regretting it, doesnt mean she isnt being herself within the relationship. It means she made her choice and continued living her life as she normally would have.
Tony,right on! Dan you’re wrong.Think about it.You aren’t accepting of child molestation[who would be??]but you don’t think murder is so bad.I don’t understand.
Less, 11:09a, said: “I am one hundered perecent sure that a pregnancy right now, at this very moment, would be not in the fetus’s best interest.”
I’m quite sure that despite the fact s/he would enter the world of a completely self-absorbed mother, the “fetus” would prefer life to death.
Jill:
Actually, the fetus would not have attained conscious thought yet, so it wouldn’t be able to have such a preference. Also, I find it amusing that you call me “completely self-absorbed” when you would likely take offence to that term being applied to yourself, and possibly ban me.
Oh? If one is unable to attain conscious thought to state one’s preference for life or death, one can be snuffed?
Mom, abortion =/= murder. thats the point. It is no more murder than refusing to donate your kidney to one who would die without it.
Bethany, slavery as it is now known existed because people believed other races to be inferior and saw them essentially as animals. And since I can see this come back coming, no one sees (or should see) fetuses as not human. Just because they are humans means essentially nothing in terms of bodily integrity.
Which is it guys. Is it a human or isn’t it?
Is it a person or isn’t it?
Is a person a human or isn’t it?
Can we kill a person or just a human?
Can we kill a human cuz it’s not a person?
Slaves were considered non-persons, jews were considered non-human.
Both were killed by people who thought they were useless and expendable.
You guys can’t have it both ways.
Each one of you needs to clarify, individually, because you’re all saying something different.
Who is it again that we’re allowed to kill?
mk
human =/= person. personhood really has no bearing on the abortion debate anyway.
slaves had been considered persons in the past. Countries took the institution and twisted it, taking away all rights they had. Slavery had existed in Africa as a way to settle debt or if they were a POW. They still had rights, and slaves had rights in other cultures as well.
Jews were viewed as a disease on Germany by Hitler, however they were certainly persons, just as slaves were persons. Both groups were believed inferior because of their ethnicity, which has nothing to do with personhood or whether or not something is human.
Death is a byproduct of abortion. I think if there were someway to develop an artificial womb of some kind, both sides would be appeased. Women get their bodily integrity, the embryo gets to develop and become a child.
and as I’ve said, its killing just as refusing to donate a kidney is killing. the woman refuses to donate the womb, fetus dies.
So what if a person was really psycho and loved the idea of getting pregnant so she could feel the power of deciding who lives and who dies and just kept having abortions for the pure pleasure of it.
Would that be okay?
Dan has checked in.
A fetus is a person and a human. But you can kill it because he has taken this and twisted it and taken away all the rights that it had.
What about the rest of you?
mk
That example is an extreme and highly unlikely, its like me saying that marriage should be banned because of people who try to control the other’s monetary status if they do not get a prenup, or for those who kill their husbands and take the money and run.
the fetus never legally had rights MK, there was nothing for me to take away.
And I never said a fetus is a person, i said whether it is or not is irrelevant to the debate.
and once the fetus has reached personhood, or viability, it is protected by the government
nd I never said a fetus is a person, i said whether it is or not is irrelevant to the debate
How is it irrelevent?
And no, the fetus is not protected after the age of “viability” because there are women who are able to go to Dr Tiller and get an abortion for any reason, any time, up to the day before birth. None of these babies are protected, even though most of them ARE at the viable age. Please explain to me how the government is protecting them?
Please explain to me how the government protected that poor baby that Jill had to hold and rock till it died in her arms???
Explain that to me.
Maybe its up to state governments, but usually around 24 weeks states provide protection for the fetus because of its viability.
it is irrelevant because of the analogy I posted. No one can use another’s organs without consent. A person dying of kidney failure cannot simply take control of another person’s kidney and use it to live, they must have a willing donor that matches. The fetus wants to use the mother’s womb to live. If the mother does not wish to donate her womb, the fetus cannot legally use it to survive.
If the person who is born cannot usurp another’s organs for survival without permission, why should a fetus, whether its a person or not be able to?
and once again, I believe protection laws may vary by state, and if there is a federal law perhaps it did not fall under the amount of time determined for it to be viable, at which case the hospital may not have been under any legal obligation to try and help the child survive, sad but true.
Ya Dan,please explain that to me also.You’re argument is clear out in left field! Are you now playing God.What about aborted and shelved babies? They are not being protected.They are out of the womb.They have “personhood”….no?Please,explain yourself.
If the person who is born cannot usurp another’s organs for survival without permission, why should a fetus, whether its a person or not be able to?
Because we are not animals and we should not behave as such. That’s why.
and once again, I believe protection laws may vary by state, and if there is a federal law perhaps it did not fall under the amount of time determined for it to be viable, at which case the hospital may not have been under any legal obligation to try and help the child survive, sad but true.
So, Dan, is this right, or wrong? In your opinion? not “sad but true” but, do you think it’s Right or Wrong to abort a “viable” fetus?
“Individual states may regulate abortion in a limited manner:
* States may ban elective abortions after fetal viability.
* State may require parental consent or notice before a minor can obtain an abortion, although usually a “judicial bypass” option must be made available.
* States may require waiting periods before an abortion may be performed. (Usually 24-48 hours).
* States may require informed consent or counseling before an abortion.
* States may require certain record-keeping procedures.
http://supreme.lp.findlaw.com/townhall/hot/abortion/abortion1.html
so essentially you’re admitting the fetus gets more rights.
I most likely would never want to have my future wife or girlfriend to get an abortion, however no one truly knows until they are in the situation. As a personal belief I think abortion after viability is wrong, however not all states protect that. I think planned parenthood says 32 states have laws restricting abortions after viability, but Im unsure
Ya Dan,how would you feel if someone took a naked little baby and tossed him in a soiled utility room to die? Cold,scared,and alone.Anyone that would allow this is absolutely heartless!!
I would also like to add that if abortion is needed to save the mother’s life, even at viability, abortion should certainly be an option for the mother.
And you know one thing I can’t understand… how any person can be as cruel and heartless as to LOOK at an innocent little baby, so weak, so defenseless, his little heart beating in his chest….his skin so thin and his veins visible through it…his little face, his little eyes…how can someone look at that, and then shelf the baby in a cold, empty room to die? What kind of animal would they have to be? What kind of brute monster does that?
It just kills me to think that there actually are people in the hospital who call themselves “doctor”, and they have no problem with something like this…they have no problem staring a little baby in the face and putting it in the garbage!
They have no problems with it at all. They just say “oh well, I’ll just say it wasn’t a person”
What kind of beasts have been brought up in this nation, and what can be done to change the hardened hearts of people like this?
I wouldn’t even treat an abortionist the way that those poor babies are treated. Why can their last minutes at LEAST be offered with some comfort, like the way Jill rocked the baby to sleep before it died? How can someone just leave a baby lying there, cold and hungry and let them just DIE without someone to hold? No one to care about them at all? How would any of THEM like to die that way? I bet none of them would. It is just sickening, abominable, and dispicable….these people are hungry for blood and won’t stop till they get it.
Go ahead and call your selves “pro-choice” when you KNOW these things happen and you look the other way and say stuff like “Oh it’s sad but true….oh well, it doesn’t effect me so I really don’t care”
But we really know what you are. You’re obviously pro-death. Anyone who is not against it is for it. You can’t be in the middle. You can’t say you “don’t like” abortion but at the same time you will allow people to do this to babies, unless you are a filthy liar.
It’s disgusting.
Bethany, I never said I approved of letting a baby die in a utility room. They should have tried to save it and allowed it to live, but unless they were charged with negligent homocide and convicted, there isnt much that can be done about it now. Should they have been charged? I believe so. Is the world/justice system perfect? No, things dont always work out the way they should, and its a natural part of life. I dont like them letting the baby die anymore than you do, and I shudder to think that you would think I do.
pro-death? I think the human race should live on thanks. I want to have my own kids someday.
Amen Bethany,Amen.When I really allow myself to think about this,it really puts an unbelievable ache in my heart.I wish I would see a monster abortionist do such a thing!You must have a really hard heart,and ice blood,and a hollow soul to do this.As far as I’m concerned,you aren’t even human.NOBODY should die alone.Jill takes so much heat on this post,but I admire her courage.She held that baby when his heartless,dispicable mother declined to do so!She was on with her life.Her problem solved.This has nothing to do with the fact that I am a mother.It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I’m a human being!
That example is an extreme and highly unlikely, its like me saying that marriage should be banned because of people who try to control the other’s monetary status if they do not get a prenup, or for those who kill their husbands and take the money and run.
I didn’t say it should be banned because of it. I asked you how you would feel about it.
mk
Bethany, I never said I approved of letting a baby die in a utility room. They should have tried to save it and allowed it to live, but unless they were charged with negligent homocide and convicted, there isnt much that can be done about it now. Should they have been charged? I believe so. Is the world/justice system perfect? No, things dont always work out the way they should, and its a natural part of life. I dont like them letting the baby die anymore than you do, and I shudder to think that you would think I do.
Why in your opinion shouldn’t they have just not had the abortion in the first place? Does a downs syndrome baby deserve to die just because it is affected with downs syndrome? You say the baby should have been worked with to save it…why shouldn’t the baby have just lived on in it’s mother’s womb??
If you shudder at the thought of this, you should shudder when you realize that you are part of the problem that causes this to happen…You support abortion! Why not accept that abortion is wrong, because of the horrible things it is doing, and make an effort to stop it? It’s killing babies, Dan, it’s not killing little sub-humans.
Dan,that’s a step in the right direction.That’s good to know,but I’ve been to web sites that say that this happens in abortion clinics every day.There isn’t one good thing about it.Especially George Tiller.He’s one of the worst.The women have their babies over a toilet or in a hotel room.The purpose of the toilet is to drown the baby should it come out alive.This isn’t medical care! This is point blank murder!
human =/= person. personhood really has no bearing on the abortion debate anyway.
nd I never said a fetus is a person, i said whether it is or not is irrelevant to the debate
Then perhaps you should speak English instead of using hieroglyphics, because I took you human =/= person thingy to mean that human, person, same thing.
mk
“opinion shouldn’t they have just not had the abortion in the first place?”
That is up to them to decide based on their situation, not for me to choose.
“Does a downs syndrome baby deserve to die just because it is affected with downs syndrome?”
First off no baby deserves to die. Second off, I dont think women should abort simply because of genetic defects or diseases, but once again it is governed to each individual situation and is not for me to decide, but the two who are in the relationship, and ultimately the woman
“You say the baby should have been worked with to save it…why shouldn’t the baby have just lived on in it’s mother’s womb??”
It was being aborted, no one had planned for it to be alive, but once it was realized to be alive, they should have simply tried to save it.
That is up to them to decide based on their situation, not for me to choose.
If you had to look that little one in the eyes, I have a feeling you would be saying quite a different thing.
sorry MK, it was a supposed to be a “does not equal” sign.
Bethany, my personal opinion wouldnt matter in that case, no matter what I wanted, it was up to the mother. I may not like it, but it isnt my choice.
What if it was your baby, and your wife decided to do kill your baby, and you had to look in your baby’s eyes, knowing that you could do nothing to save him or her. What then? How would you feel?
I’m sure you’ll say again it wouldn’t be your choice, but you can’t tell me that wouldnt rip your heart and soul out.
Dan,
sorry MK, it was a supposed to be a “does not equal” sign.
ahhhh…
So yer pleadin’ the fifth eh?
Not takin’ a stand one way or the other eh?
Then I gotta repeat my questions:
Which is it guys. Is it a human or isn’t it?
Is it a person or isn’t it?
Is a person a human or isn’t it?
Can we kill a person or just a human?
Can we kill a human cuz it’s not a person?
You guys can’t have it both ways.
Each one of you needs to clarify, individually, because you’re all saying something different.
WHO IS IT THEN THAT WE’RE ALLOWED TO KILL?
mk
Dan pleads the fifth. He says it doesn’t matter.
Leah, Heather, Alyssa, Samantha, Ingrid, Amanda???
Hal, Joe, Kate? Anybody????
lol, Im simply saying that just because it is human doesnt make it a person.
But whether it is a person or not, as you seemed to have noticed, does not really have a bearing on the debate.
All righty then.
So Human 1
Person 0
Got it.
mk
lol, Im simply saying that just because it is human doesnt make it a person.
But whether it is a person or not, as you seemed to have noticed, does not really have a bearing on the debate.
What does that MEAN? I’m so tired of hearing “person…human…person…human”…there’s no difference. It’s all a bunch of semantics.a human is a person. A person is a human! You know exactly what it is.
Why can’t you just admit it to yourself?
Bethany, you’re right that it would be my wife’s choice, and hopefully we would have discussed it before hand, and hopefully the decision would end up being to have the child.
But if my child was aborted, I would be depressed/saddened, etc, as you would guess.
Would you feel that a WRONG had been done, Dan?
Sorry MK, I keep pushing your post back .I want someone to answer you too:
*********************
“Dan,
sorry MK, it was a supposed to be a “does not equal” sign.
ahhhh…
So yer pleadin’ the fifth eh?
Not takin’ a stand one way or the other eh?
Then I gotta repeat my questions:
Which is it guys. Is it a human or isn’t it?
Is it a person or isn’t it?
Is a person a human or isn’t it?
Can we kill a person or just a human?
Can we kill a human cuz it’s not a person?
You guys can’t have it both ways.
Each one of you needs to clarify, individually, because you’re all saying something different.
WHO IS IT THEN THAT WE’RE ALLOWED TO KILL?
mk
Dan pleads the fifth. He says it doesn’t matter.
Leah, Heather, Alyssa, Samantha, Ingrid, Amanda???
Hal, Joe, Kate? Anybody????”
no, a human is not a person.
something is human if it contains human DNA, a skin cell is human, assuming it came from homo sapien.
A person is a philosophical term meaning that the human is aware of whats going on around it, can think, feels, etc on its own, and the actions arent just reflexes.
Dan,I used to say the same thing you did.When I began to educate myself on what abortion REALLY was,I said to myself,Oh Lord! What was I saying??? I used to tell women that while abortion wasn’t right for me,it’s your body and your choice. I didn’t want any flack or controversy…much easier that way.It didn’t take long for me to do a 360,after I started to visit pro-life web sites.What I found,shocked the hell out of me! The lies,the deception,etc. His Man put it best when he said “If you don’t stand for something,you’ll fall for anything” Dan,it’s never too late to change your mind. I did!
Bethany,did you get my e-mail address?
http://www.abort73.com/HTML/I-A-2a-pain.html
The fact that fetuses can feel pain is really quite obvious. Since newborn babies can feel pain, fetuses can feel pain. There is no pain switch which suddenly switches to “on” during the journey through the birth canal. The only question is when do fetuses feel pain? The Unborn Child Pain Awareness Act places a fetus’ ability to feel pain at 20 weeks from fertilization, about half way through pregnancy. Twenty weeks is a conservative enough estimate that even some prominent abortion supporters have conceded it’s reliability.
In the end, the question of fetal pain, like almost all abortion controversy comes down to who you believe. Many pro-life doctors maintain that fetuses can feel pain by 8 weeks after fertilization (about the time most surgical abortions take place). Pro-abortion doctors tend to argue that fetuses don’t experience pain until the very end of pregnancy. Whose testimony is more reliable, those who have a financial interest in the availability of abortion or those who don’t? Ethically speaking, who is going to be less likely to lie, those who believe dismembering living human beings is a legitimate medical practice or those who don’t?
Sir Albert Lilley, widely considered the “Father of Fetology”, and unabashedly pro-life (as anyone with his vast knowledge of fetal development should be) makes some remarkable statements about fetal pain in an interview he conducted for the book The Tiniest Humans.
Question: In the case of an 8- to-10-week fetus, if you apply pressure will it tend to try to get out of the way?
Answer: Normally it would be extremely difficult, apart from putting a foreign instrument or needle into the uterus to apply pressure, but with a fetus at that maturity you have a very small fetus in a larger capsule of fluid. However, as the famous work of Dr. Davenport Hooker shows, in his many thousands of feet of film, babies at this maturity are responsive to touch.
The fetus also responds violently to painful stimuli-needle puncture and injection of cold or of hypertonic solutions- stimuli which you and I find painful, children will tell you are painful, and the neonate, to judge from his responses, finds painful.
—
I have been told by advocates of abortion that we have no proof that the fetus actually feels pain. Strictly, they are quite correct. Pain is a peculiarly personal and subjective experience and there is no biochemical or physiological test we can do to tell that anyone is in pain – a phenomenon which makes it very easy to bear other people’s pain stoically, which is an important point for obstetricians to remember. By the same token we lack any proof that animals feel pain. However, to judge from their responses, it seems charitable to assume they do. Were this not so there would be no point in having an organization like the Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and I for one would be unhappy to think we would withhold from the human fetus a charitable consideration we were prepared to extend to animals.
Question: The question, then, of pain felt by the fetus – it is your personal opinion, I gather from what you say in your paper, that in effect the fetus does feel pain?
Answer: I can only say that the fetus responds violently to stimuli that you and I would find painful. Bertrand Russell once remarked that a fisherman had told him that fish had neither sense or sensation, but how he knew that the fisherman would not tell him.
I would feel like I had been wronged, and I would be depressed for a long time about it I would think. But I also dont have to risk my health in either procedure, so Im also a bit biased.
Oh yes, momof3, I’m sorry, I totally forgot. Emailing you right now!:)
mom, I already changed my mind. I had been pro life, and switched to pro choice after doing some research of my own.
Bethany, 20 weeks is accepted now because that is when receptors in the fetuses brain hook up, receptors which are required to feel pain.
Bethany,no hurry.Just wanted to make sure you got it.
What if evidence was found later on which disproved that theory, and you learned a way to measure the pain at 8 weeks after all, even from the early age?
Would you feel that you had been wrong all these years and that it was not right?
And by the way, does not being able to feel pain REALLY make it ok to be killed?
Does someone who is born without the ability to feel pain non human?
Are people in a coma non human because they do not necessarily feel pain?
Goodness, how many people there could be who are not worthy of life if this is the measure of worth!
There are too many holes in the pro-abortions ideas of life and when it begins and when it’s ok to kill a human being and why. Why is it so hard to just care about human beings, all human beings no matter how small, no matter how disabled, no matter if they’re fat, short, tall, whatever?
Every person is unique and deserves the chance to live.
None of the reasons you or any pro-abort has to say changes the fact that a fetus is a human being , and it doesn’t change the fact that a human being does not deserve to die unjustly.
Pain could be considered irrelevant if you REALLY wanted to push it, it goes back to organ donors, people who need organs tend to die slowly and painfully. Though if fetuses did feel pain then painkillers of somekind would certainly be an option before the abortion. That would certainly make things more complicated and possibly iffy, but until more credible evidence of that comes to light, my views are most likely going to remain the way they are.
people in comas can be removed from life support and allowed to die, its just that the decision is left up to the family to choose.
people in comas can be removed from life support and allowed to die, its just that the decision is left up to the family to choose.
Are they non-human because they can’t necessarily feel pain?
. Though if fetuses did feel pain then painkillers of somekind would certainly be an option before the abortion.
It’d never happen. They (pro-aborts) won’t even allow painkillers for partial birth abortions which have proven to be painful. They know it hurts the baby but they don’t care because it might hurt their agenda.
And I am talking about painkillers for the baby, not the mother. Of course they let the mother have painkillers because they pretend to care about the mother.
no, they are human, they have human DNA. whether or not people in comas are persons is arguable, but they are not capable of making the decision unless they have had a living will drawn up. If there is no such will then the decision is left to the next of kin
When someone dies of organ failure,it is an act of their own bodily organs failing.I have taken care of patients like this.Doctors will do all that they can to try and save the person.We’re all going to die,but abortion is choosing to kill a child.I’ve seen 80 year olds on dialysis Dan.Medication is administered to keep the patient comfortable.Organ failure and abortion are 2 totally different things!Please don’t try to compare them anymore.
no, they are human, they have human DNA. whether or not people in comas are persons is arguable, but they are not capable of making the decision unless they have had a living will drawn up. If there is no such will then the decision is left to the next of kin
Wow, I actually didn’t expect that. So you really do believe that without consciousness a person can actually become a non-person!
I don’t know why but this really amazes me.
Dan, if someone is put under anesthesia, are they temporarily non-persons??
(why am I even bothering- I don’t know)
A child is not killed, a fetus is. But you cant deny that there are parallels to organ failure and a fetus in a mothers womb. In each case there is something causing the body to act differently than it normally would and could potentially cause harm if not death.
In each case there is something causing the body to act differently than it normally would and could potentially cause harm if not death.
Huh? A woman’s body acts exactly as it is supposed to when it’s pregnant… I’d call this Normal.
And inserting foreign objects, saline solutions, and vacuum cleaner hoses is normal?
mk
Huh? A woman’s body acts exactly as it is supposed to when it’s pregnant… I’d call this Normal.
No doubt!
no, anasthesia is temporary.
And as I said, people in comas being persons is debateable, and I believe there is probably a law somewhere that governs the rights of someone in such a position
comas may or may not be temporary, and the doctor will often give the family the chance of the coma ending and/or whether or not the person may survive afterwords.
My Uncle had a heart attack a few years ago and went into a coma. After a few days to a week, his daughters made the agonizing decision of taking him off life support, and he died soon after. He was incapable of making his own decision, and had no living will. The family knew there was little chance of him coming out of it, and if he had he would have been severely brain damage, as he went without oxygen for minutes.
That being said, I think it shows that personhood of those in comas is certainly debatable
*sigh* Bethany,me neither.Dan isn’t stupid,but I’m tired of this person,non person,body autonomy,feti,zygote nonsense. Either he gets it, or he doesn’t.My heart breaks for those that don’t. It’s simple.This board has taught me that some people will say anything to make themselves feel better.You’re right though.The next thing that will be taken will be your inability to fend for yourself under anesthesia.
Dan,
You said it didn’t make any difference if it was a child or a fetus, a human or a non-human. You can’t very well turn around and say that a child is not killed, a fetus is. You’re using the argument you used against us as an argument for yourself…So we cannot kill a child?
but we can kill a fetus?
mk
When a woman is pregnant her body shifts modes so that it may provide for the zygot/embryo/fetus. The woman no longer benefits from all the nutrition taken in, as the fetus takes some of the nutrients from the mothers blood stream. It is natural in terms of it biologically occuring, but it is still potentially harmful to the woman.
mk, are shots/vaccines, televisions or computers normal?
in medical terminology a child is born, a fetus is in the womb, at least that is what I have been led to believe.
I argued personhood didnt matter, not whether or not it was a child
and mom, ill take that dan isnt stupid comment as a compliment
oops meant your ability.Oh and Dan 9 times out of 10,a woman put that pregnancy into her own uterus, with a little help from her partner.It didn’t just miraculously grow there.
Dan,never mind.You lost me.Now I really don’t understand where you’re coming from.I give up.
I argued personhood didnt matter, not whether or not it was a child
How does personhood not have a bearing on the debate when you yourself said that the government should take care of them if they’re viable – which you defined as having personhood.
On one hand you’re saying it’s not wrong till they’re viable or have personhood.
On the other hand you’re saying that personhood has no bearing on the debate!
yeah, my view on issues tend to be incredibely complex, I dont fault you.
yes, it did come from her partner in part, but he doesnt have to endure any of the health risks. A dialog between the two should certainly occur, barring rape or an abusive relationship, but ultimately its up the person risking their life, the woman
the it being wrong/ goernment protection = personal opinion, it is up to the government to make/pass those laws. In terms of the legality of abortion overall, it has no bearing
Dan,I did mean to compliment you,but the compliment was prematurely given.Now you just sound totally lost.
I’m with momof3, I give up. This argument makes me physically sick. I feel that you, Dan, have some sense of morality from what you post, but you’re just too cowardly to stand up for what is right, and instead hide behind legalities and the government. If we were back in the times where slavery was legal you would be doing the same thing, saying it’s the government’s job to make or pass the laws. That the personhood of slaves is not up to you to decide. That slavery doesn’t effect us so we shouldn’t bother with trying to stop slave owners, because obviously, they’re not making persons suffer, they’re making well, “the N word” suffer. You might not have been able to claim that a slave takes up residence in a womb, but that wouldn’t stop you. You’d have plenty of great and convincing “moral” arguments to prove personhood does not apply to them,just as everyone else did back then.
Maybe we’ll be lucky one day and the same thing that happened with slavery will happen with abortion. Until then, I’ll just have to deal with the fact that there are people out there who deep down know it’s wrong but are too afraid to admit it, or if you admit it, you’re too afraid to do anything to make a stand.
You say you used to be pro-life? I doubt it. You were on the fence.
No, I was pro life, and it was much easier to be pro life with the friends I have. I am friends with many people who are pro life, we just keep the conversation away from politics
I based my knowledge on personhood on what research I’ve done, nothing more nothing less.
I dont like abortion, and I dont know anyone who finds it an amazingly pleasant experience or something to be gone through. As I’ve said, I wouldnt want to have to have one performed on anyone I have a relationship with, but no one truly knows until they are in the situation.
The job of the government is to pass laws, thats true. However, I fight for my beliefs, its just that my thinking tends to be complex and has a lot of unless’ and ifs in it, no matter what my opinion is on various things. It just makes it more complicated that it is a POTENTIAL person.
Bethany, I personally as a man am unaffected directly by abortion one way or the other. The decision isnt mine. No matter what the woman’s decision would be, I would support her. Abortion isnt a decision lightly made.
Bethany, the arguments used for slavery was tradition and the Bible, neither of which I use as a base for my arguments. I most likely would be on the side fighting for abolition for various reasons:
1)live out in MA, weren’t entirely fond of it here to begin with.
2) liberal, change is good, tradition maybe not so much
3)dont believe in depriving anyone of their LEGAL rights.
Bethany,I couldn’t have said it better.I’m getting a bit tired.Ever notice that most pro-choicers use the same argument over and over again.It’s like they are all typing from the same book. All programed with the same chip in their backs.It’s very aggravating and very boring.Where did these words come from anyway?Body autonomy,fetii,personhood,zygotes? It leaves my head spinning!Do they feel that by repeating this speech,it makes them look intelligent?Look at the posts from PIP- it’s no different. The only difference is she takes up like 2 pages to say the same thing.Meanwhile,babies are killed in our country every day,and we can’t do much to put an end to it.Bethany,I’ll e-mail you tomorrow.I’m gonna go to bed, put my feet up,[very swollen] and pray.I hope you have a great night and God Bless you!
Hi Momof3,
I feel for ya … the ‘autonomy- thing’ is a bit much, so I came up with a rebuttal … Say you went on a ride at the midway. Would you say my rights are upper-most and just step out … I don’t think so. The consequences almost certainly are deadly!
When you bought a ticket (had sex
-protected/unprotected- you enter into an unspoken agreement not to get off (responsibility) until the ride (pregnancy) is over. Abortion is reneging on this agreement.
There is a bit of a kicker-though. The operator of the ride has a special door that he can open at will. And the rider goes flying out and is physically injured (has aftermath symptoms). The pro-life stance in stopping abortion, is getting rid-off/sealing-shut that door.
Hate to post and run, but given how busy everything is lately, that’s probably what this is going to be. But I saw this and had to say something really quickly.
John,
Your case is interesting, but not quite analogous, given that it is not clear where the right of bodily autonomy lies in this case. Not getting off until the ride is over (which you claim is analogous to taking the pregnancy to term) does not violate any right to your bodily autonomy. And if you are claiming (as I think you might be) that it in fact does involve issues of bodily autonomy, but the analogous right here involves your freedom to jump off the train and risk injury to yourself or not, then the case might be more analogous. But also in that case, I would be inclined to say that you would have every right to jump off that train. It’s your health that you risk! It’s your body!(I personally think that laws against suicide, while they seem to make sense because attempted suicides are usually the result of an underlying illness that can be treated, are one of the ultimate strikes against our own bodily autonomy).
And as for claiming that when you bought the ticket you consented to remaining till the ride was over, I don’t see that this is the case, neither in your case (or in the case of sex, which is disanalogous with your case because jumping off is not a “natural consequence” of the act – that natural consequence bit is much more important to your side of the argument than mine, by the way).
Either way, just because you consent to use of your body does not mean that you cannot later withdraw that consent. So even *if* sex were consent to pregnancy (which it’s not), that consent can later be withdrawn. After all, if a woman or man consents to sex, they can still, mid-coitus, withdraw that consent. Once that consent has been withdrawn, if the other party continues to use their body, that’s rape – a violation of their bodily autonomy.
Jill- I’m still working on it when I get the chance. :)
See, Dan, one of the huge problems you run into when you enter into these kinds of discussions is that is doesn’t matter what you think. It doesn’t matter how you define life, or how you define the unborn child’s rights as a citizen. It doesn’t matter what the wife believes regarding viability, human status of the unborn child or whatever, what matters is what the fiance believes.
She may believe he’s delusional, and she seems to love him anyway, but she is lying to him. If he is a devout Catholic, she had violated one of the primary tenets of his faith, and is unrepentant about it.
She also understands his strong feelings on the subject, and that is probably why she is so reticent to tell him about what she did.
And it doesn’t matter whether you think his faith is right, wrong or whatever. What matters is, this is the man he is. She heeds to come clean and let him decide what he’s going to do about it.
I wonder if they haven’t talked about other things, like artificial birth control, the obligation to attend mass weekly and on Holy Days of obligation? Does she understand what her role in his life will be or is it, as it seems, all about her?
Dan,
It just makes it more complicated that it is a POTENTIAL person.
There you go again. I thought you said it didn’t matter if it was a person or not?
You see Dan, Bethany is right. Deep down you know the truth.
You know that if you look at it as a person, abortion is wrong.
If you can only keep looking at it as a potential person, abortion is acceptable.
But you can’t make up your mind as to it’s personhood, and end up contradicting yourself.
The only thing your arguments do, inadvertently, are prove that whether or not it is a person, does in fact matter a great deal.
What is the profound research that you have done?
What “facts” could you possibly have come up with that have convinced you abortion is viable choice?
You keep referring to this “research” and I’d like to know what it is.
You say your views are complicated, and I say they are complicated because you know one thing to be true, but you are trying to cling to the something else. This would confuse anybody. Living in denial is always more difficult than living in Truth, especially when you have a conscience. If everybody would leave it alone, you might very well be able to continue in your “fantasy world”,
but the Truth keeps rearing it’s ugly head, and you have to stumble and struggle to make your false arguments appear reasonable.
SOMG, while having sold his soul to the highest bidder, nonetheless is a perfect example of someone who really believes that it doesn’t matter if it is a person or not. He never contradicts himself. The mother always comes first (actually SOMG always comes first), and so you can’t shake him. He loves the green stuff, and this allows him to dismiss the person/non person issue. He doesn’t care about anyone else beside himself, but at least he’s consistent.
I think the problem with you is that you don’t really believe it’s not a person and that keeps tripping you up. You desperately want to believe that it’s not a person, but your conscience won’t let you and your constant contradictions point that out.
I do believe that there is hope for you yet.
If you start to listen to yourself that is.
Throw out the research. Listen to your heart.
The only reliable source that there is.
mk
MK,you’re always such a breath of fresh air!
You say your views are complicated, and I say they are complicated because you know one thing to be true, but you are trying to cling to the something else. This would confuse anybody. Living in denial is always more difficult than living in Truth, especially when you have a conscience. If everybody would leave it alone, you might very well be able to continue in your “fantasy world”,
but the Truth keeps rearing it’s ugly head, and you have to stumble and struggle to make your false arguments appear reasonable.
Exactly…the truth is never complicated. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing.
John,I did like that!
Hi Diana,
I do hope your exams go well ……..
re. the argument – whether intended or not one of the consequences of sex (even if rare & with precautions is pregnancy) … part of the price of admission.
The autonomy is not restored via abortion … note the ‘kicker’. Another person is killing your unborn-child (not fetus because it is a medical term that may be time specific, but is not species-specific). An abortion means you are the mother of a dead baby.
An abortion evacuates/empties a womb, but all sorts of supporting chemical processes have already been put in place [ restraining-safety equipment for midway rides ]. What happens to these??? What happens to some (not all) women under these circumstances? Is there a pay-back mechanism for causing an interruption?
The bodily integrity decision was made some weeks ago – between the zygote and the womb. Your definition of bodily autonomy rests solely on the mother’s mental capacities – reminds me somewhat of E. Kant. [Consciousness and will/control are only a very small part of her brain activity even her cognitive activity.] Much of this depends on whether she is forming a proper image of the human-growing process.
The reliance of any/your very immature human is at once an incredible blessing/challenge (only I can nourish her/him!) or this presence is a curse(too much fear). In a big way this ‘autonomy’ decision is a catch-up decision of events that have already happened, but the feelings/emotions are current. Very much like wearing a condom ‘after’ sex … doesn’t make much sense !
So my analogy is very appropriate …. the concept you have of autonomy is not a rational process but mainly of current emotions (panic – must jump off ride). It takes scant integration of ‘responsibility’ a tampering device of the will.
Please, in the future do not refer to my ideas as ‘interesting – but not quite analogous’ … seems to be dismissive. I can assure you getting on a midway ride is much more relevant than having an intruder tossed through my living-room window. To me the main drawback of the midway-ride analogy is time. Everything is much sped-up here …. but the direction suits to a T.
You guys are overthinking this thing. Such deep analysis and metaphysics “is interesting but not quite helpful.” The essential point is abortion is legal because people want it to be legal. You’re not changing any minds or anyone’s actions. How many “pro-life” young women reconsider their position when they have an unwanted pregnancy? It’s about to be legalized in Mexico of all places, a very Catholic country.
Better birth control and education will reduce abortion rate by reducing unwanted pregnancies, not much else will.
The essential point is abortion is legal because people want it to be legal.
Yes, just like slavery was.
Better birth control and education will reduce abortion rate by reducing unwanted pregnancies, not much else will.
Baloney. Ever since birth control and sex education have increased over the years, there have been more and more unwanted pregnancies. Not less. Have any objective research to prove your point?
hey gary,
the only reason I entered into such argumentation was I was invited/challenged to do so by Diana … a well-educated and clear-speaking pro-choicer. She has a lot-of-brains an needed some counter to her opinions …. I engaged her … and just hope it helps others in their own discussions.
have to agree with Bethany + it seems to me that human procreation must-be approved first … or you will kill the baby …. seems a little control-freakish to me. Just what are you afraid off?
I think the young lady needs to be honest with her soon to be hubby. If they choose to work it out, great, but if not, then it must of not been meant to be. Part of the relationship is the good, bad and the ugly. I’ve always believed honesty was the best policy. Time and love will tell if they can work it out.
By all means you have to tell your fiance. Marriage is about communication and trust. If you withhold this information from him then you have neither. What will happen if you don’t tell him about your past but then you have some type of medical issue later on in life and the abortion is brought up because of it? The pain and and heartache you will cause him are unfathomable. I do believe that withholding something of this magnitude would nullify a marriage.
MK, things are always complicated wehen they will never affect you personally because you have to do your best looking at it from the view of another person, which is admittedly difficult.
The way I see it simplified is that abortion should be legal up until the point of viability, at which point abortion is restricted by law in most states.
Bethany, you claim truth is never comlicated, but that doesnt make sense to me. Often truth can be much more complex than fiction. Complexity or simplicity have nothing to do with truth. The Bible is a pretty comple book, and there are those that claim that to be the truth, where as others claim that there is no God simply because it may be a simple conclusion they came to on there on. At this point, obviously, no one knows for sure. But Im sure you would claim (assuming you are Christian)would attest to the truth of the Bible rather than the atheist.
“Truth is stranger than fiction, because fiction has to make sense”
-Liralin Li
Hi PinP,
finally it dawned on me what Bethany was driving at when she seemed to be haranguing you about ‘choice’. Many of us old-coots want to know if we are ‘wrong’. Some of us (over the years) have gone through the choices … but we still end up here … on the pro-life side. How come? Is our reasoning flawed?
Science can tell you all kinds of stuff … it may even land you a job. But can it put its arms around your neck and say, ‘I love you, Mommy’? Every single person on the pro-life side has such a trans-formative experience. But to pro-choicers this is only one of many options (a lowly emotional one too).
To pro-lifers this is THE one and only choice. Abortion IS murder … (and likely a form of suicide for a pregnant mom). Tell her its OK to choose a child’s death – not likely!
Hi PinP,
finally it dawned on me what Bethany was driving at when she seemed to be haranguing you about ‘choice’. Many of us old-coots want to know if we are ‘wrong’. Some of us (over the years) have gone through the choices … but we still end up here … on the pro-life side. How come? Is our reasoning flawed?
Science can tell you all kinds of stuff … it may even land you a job. But can it put its arms around your neck and say, ‘I love you, Mommy’? Every single person on the pro-life side has such a trans-formative experience. But to pro-choicers this is only one of many options (a lowly emotional one too).
To pro-lifers this is THE one and only choice. Abortion IS murder … (and likely a form of suicide for a pregnant mom). Tell her its OK to choose a child’s death – not likely!
I’m so glad you see what I was trying to say, John.
Regarding the above statement:
“I decided, after much consideration, to have an abortion. I know I did the right thing and to this day stand by my decision, but I never told my fianc
It seems to me that abortion has been on the rise even with all of the BC available.I feel that if there wasn’t such easy access to abortion,people might stop and think before they chose to “bed down”If society made it a royal pain in the a** to obtain an abortion,then it would take away everyones free promiscuity pass.With such easy access,people have just gone nuts!4000 abortions a day are too many!!
Momof3, it’s hard to tell if it’s the “free promiscuity” you object to more or the abortions.
I’d rather live in a society of healthy sexual expression and legal abortion than in a society where only married people had sex and abortion was illegal.
Of course, that’s not the choice. There are indeed many married women who get abortions. And, sadly, many women who have children without getting married.
Abortion rates declined during the Clinton years. I’m really not sure why.
Gary,the promiscuity leads to unwanted pregnancies.Of course Bill Clinton was a big abortion supporter.His mistress Gennifer Flowers became pregnant with his child.Bill wasn’t gonna have an illegitimate kid ruin him.Nope.NO WAY!! He told Gennifer to march her happy a** down to the abortion clinic.She followed his orders.
PS Gary,I went off the topic.I never heard about the abortion rate declining while Bill was in office.Where did you hear this??
Gary,allow me to point out one thing to you.There is a pro-life sign that reads;Who likes abortion? The sign then asks mothers?Babies? There is no check mark by either one of these.Then the third option asks; Irresponsible men? Guess what? Big check mark!You just confirmed this for me.
Posts today
Wow, I’ve spent all my blogging time this morning going through comments made last night and answering those I needed to. I appreciate all that you have to say. Some of you stay up very late! Speaking of comments, I…
She should go to Confession and she should also make sure not to have any sexual relations with her future husband until she is married. A good read of the Cathecism of the Catholic Church will be very helpful. Daily prayer is essential.