The dinner party test
My favorite pro-abort, Jeff V., sent me this column by Albert Mohler as an encouragment. Jeff is nice that way….
The Independent [London] has published an amazing report indicating that Britain faces a “crisis” in the availability of abortion. It seems that “an unprecedented number of doctors are refusing to be involved in carrying out the procedure.”
As the paper reports, “The exodus of doctors prepared to perform the task is a nationwide phenomenon that threatens to plunge the abortion service into chaos, the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (RCOG) has warned.”
This makes sense, of course. Why would doctors — who dedicate their lives to saving lives — choose to deploy their medical skills in the service of killing unborn babies? The “crisis” feared by The Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists is a crisis of recovered moral consciousness.
One paragraph in the paper’s report is too important to miss. Look closely at these words….
Distaste at performing terminations combined with ethical and religious convictions has led to a big increase in “conscientious objectors” who request exemption from the task, the RCOG says. A key factor is what specialists call “the dinner party test”. Gynaecologists who specialise in fertility treatment creating babies for childless couples are almost universally revered – but no one boasts of being an abortionist.
This is a truly remarkable paragraph. The moral conscience rears its head in unexpected ways. “The dinner party test” is an amazing example of a common grace display of suppressed moral knowledge.
And btw, could this critical shortage of abortionists (so sad) be why another of my favorite pro-aborts, SOMG, is promoting self-abortions and abortions by nondoctors? Back alley to front alley to back alley…
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Jill,
I had this article last week for a post and then the partial birth abortion ban happened and I forgot about it. Glad you resurrected it.
mk
I heard about this.
Doctors should have choice, but I suspect some will continue to feel morally obligated to provide abortions. BTW… regarding revering IVF doctors… numerically, they consume/kill far more pre-babies than an abortion doctor.
This was written about in The Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/libby_purves/article1662848.ece
My brother’s ex partner’s response to this is –
A standard description of the limit of individual rights is “Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose.” I therefore see no circumstance which could legally justify forcing someone to keep another being (even another living human being) inside her body against her will. In the legal sense a foetus has no rights of its own when it cannot live, move, or grow without injuring someone else. And continuation of an unwanted pregnancy is an injury.
Sarah, can you not see that the mothers fist is most certainly hitting her child’s face when she has him ripped apart and tossed aside?
Yes, the child is dependent upon the mother for life, but we are all dependent upon our environments.
I have yet to hear someone prove to me that bodily domain superceeds all other rights, and I doubt it is possible.
Yes Lauren, sorry!!
I should have made it clear that I take the opposite view to my ex sister in law.
I appreciate your answer so much.
I fail to see the point that she makes about pregnancy = injury.
Haha! Sorry Sara, I thought you meant that you agreed with her. :)
But yes, I never saw that point either, especially because the child does absolutely nothing to invade the mother. It would be like me taking my son’s hand, putting it in my mouth, and biting it off because “he had no right to be there”.
Hi Lauren, thanks for replying,
Yes, the baby is simply residing inside the mother, it is the aborter who is doing the violence, and not the other way round!! Seems like she has turned things on its head amd taken the “he had no right to be there” thing a lot further, and it seems quite bizzare how in her mind unwanted pregnany = violence.
She has mounted a campaign against my recent interest in pro life issues, and whatever I write.
Nevermind.
Lauren,
please could you explain to me the concept of bodily domain in regards to the foetus/babies. (I have not heard of this (would you believe?!)
No problem Sarah. Stand tough, I understand that once you come out on the light side, people do all they can to draw you back into the dark.
The basic concept of bodily domain is that your physical body has certain boundries. These boundries are easily describes as what is covered by your skin/hair. Basically anything that falls within those bounderies is the domain of your body.
In pregnancy a fetus is within the domain of you body. The arguement hinges on the question of if he has the right to be there or not.
Got it. Thanks for that Lauren. When i found out ‘what abortion is’ my pro life views were formed in instant, and nothing or nobody will ever change that.
Good! :)
Sarah,
Hi and welcome.
Some pro-choicers, not all, but some, have taken the stand that even though the baby (Fetus) is a full human being and a complete person at conception, it does not have the same rights as the mother and the mothers right to bodily autonomy trumps the baby’s right to life.
Others hold to the belief that the baby is a human but NOT a person and therefore has no rights.
Others believe it is not a human/person until it takes it’s first breath.
Others believe it is a human from conception but not a person until it is born.
All of them believe that a mother’s personal bodily autonomy is greater than the childs right to life regardless of when it becomes human.
A few object to abortion after viability, except they disagree on when viability occurs.
Only two admit to being pro abortion, none admit to being pro death, all admit to being pro choice.
Some claim to be anti-abortion, but pro-choice.
Only SOMG seems to actually like abortion.
Diana likes herself.
Cameron doesn’t count. He just likes to cause trouble then sit back and glory in the wreckage.
These views have led to the baby being called:
Fetus/Fetii/blastocyst/embryo
a virus
a little shi*
a pain in the a**
a Leech
lunch
a freeloader
a mistake
a zit
an injury (your brothers ex-partner)
It is never called a baby by their side.
Our side consists of 4 Catholics, 4 or 5 protestants, 2 atheist/agnostics and God.
Some of us argue from a religious point of view, some of us quote a lot of scripture, some of us argue from a secular/scientific point of view, and some of us argue from both.
One was pro-choice when she started but is now pro-life (Thank God), one is on the fence, one is struggling.
Everyone on the sight with the exception of SOMG and Cameron is here to converse, learn and communicate. Some do it better than others. Name calling happens. Apologies happen. We start over.
If you are confused by all this, you are not alone.
Still in? If not, it’s understandable. If so,
good luck, and breakfast is on me.
mary kay
MK, I am guessing I’m the “struggling” one? :P
I think it’s great that doctors are refusing to perform abortions. Unfortunatly,we have a group of med students that call themselves Students for Choice. They say that they are the new generation of abortion providers.
Alyssa,
Now, Now, I’m not naming names…but if the shoe fits?
MK :)
oops wrong post.
Mary and Lauren thankyou!
Thanks for a wholly clear headed explanation of the confusion of pro choice.
I will try to contribute when I can. People here know a lot more than me, people have a talent for a persuasive arguement here.
I really apprecite you posting.
I’m agnostic veering towards Christianity more than anything else. I do not know much about religion. I am pro life.
The facts revealing the science of foetal pain are appalling.
Its 2:43 a.m. here (u.k) time. (Tired.)
Thanks again, its great to speak with you.
There must be Students For Life, then?
Is Students for Choice a nation-wide thing, or an informal group?
I’m a little late on this:
Welcome Sarah.
You will learn alot here. If you ever feel overwhelmed, just say it and maybe one of us will be able to calm down enough to explain. ;-)
For over 15 years I was a lasped Catholic/considered myself agnostic and have recently come back to the Church. So, I can understand where you are coming from on the religion issue. There are some wonderful people here who know so much about religion. Sometimes it is overwhelming but it can be reassuring at times to.
I would also like to jump on what MK said about how we argue, apologize etc. This site is very unique that way. On one post we will be calling each other names, fuming and all over everything that is said. But on another post we are comparing notes on health, giving advice on what kind of music to listen to (speaking of which, Rae – I got the CD, hopefully I will be able to listen to it tomorrow!) and so on. And that will all happen in the same hour!
jenny,It’s actually Medical students for choice. Sorry.
Valerie:
That’s good, I am pretty sure you’ll enjoy it. ^_^
Have you ever listened to Imogen Heap or Darren Hayes? They aren’t “rock”, they are a bit more electronic and definitely more mellow but both have gorgeous vocals. :)
I’m looking forward to hearing what you have to say about them, if you want, I can email you some more of the music via yousendit, I’ve got a good portion of Within Temptation’s music.
K, thanks.
To answer your question, Jill, I’m American and I don’t know much about medicine in Britain. If the RCOG says this is a problem there, I believe them.
They also have a shortage of dentists.
I can tell you with certainty that the ballyhooed national shortage of abortion docs in America is a myth, heavily exaggerated by pro-choice political organizations in order to get people to give them $. Even my favorite pro-choice charity, Medical Students for Choice, is not entirely innocent of this. We have more than enough abortion doctors, including young ones, to meet the demand for their services. I think trained PAs should be allowed to do suction curretage abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy because it’s a safe, easy procedure that any competent PA can learn to do with a few hours of training, not because of any shortage of abortion doctors.
From the article, it sounds like British docs are opting out casually (“dinner-party test”) rather than for essential moral or religious reasons. If this is true, the problem might be solved by offering practicioners extra money for doing abortions. Nothing like re-introducing the profit motive into Britain’s socialized, salaried health system for solving a problem like this. How much money are you willing to forego because of your “distaste” for doing terminations? How about we take the net savings we get because of the abortion (equal to the average cost of a labor and delivery minus the cost of the abortion, a large positive number) and give, say, ten percent of it back to the doc who does the abortion as a bonus?
But I don’t expect the Brits to do anything so rational as this–there’s probably a million bureaucratic obstacles to it.
If there is any serious amount of unmet demand, there will be a black market in misoprostol, methotrexate, and mifepristone (the “three m’s”).
Thankyou Valerie,
Thanks for the heads-up, as they say across the pond.
I hold some religious quotes dear to me. I never really thought about religion. It’s not big in the UK (just my opinion.I can only think of one person who goes to church in my immediate neighbourhood.)
It’s great that you can have that honesty of expression, without any charade so to speak.
The main issues surrounding abortion in the UK, I think i am up to speed on, but different scenarios in The States are a bit over my head.
I would love to stay around for a bit longer this night but its soo late here now, sorry for being rude, but i have to go again.
Hopefully i can try to contribute something, not be so rude and will stick around longer next time.
bye for now
SOMG, I hear from our side abortionists are getting old and there’s a shortage.
And, btw, if there is a shortage I think it was fueled by the abortion industry exaggerating the extent of violence. In an attempt to garner sympathy and sway public support away from pro-lifers, their plan may have backfired by scaring off doctors.
But I’ve also wondered how hard could it be to entice young turks fresh out of school with big loans to moonlight at mills a day a week. And there will always be scummy doctors who can’t cut it in the real medical world. So you may be right.
Three Ms. I’ll remember that.
Speaking of, can you tell me something? In the British study on induced labor abortions, and bearing in mind we’re discussing 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, they described giving women mifepristone before misoprostol. It didn’t appear the mifepristone was intended to kill the baby because they also described the need to commit feticide by injecting a med into the heart of potentially viable babies. What was mifepristone’s role in these late-term abortions? In the US it is only legal (and I thought lethal) the first 49 days.
mmm, just because they do abortions doesnt mean they “are scummy”. some of them work at planned parenthood and help with sex education, pap smears, prenatal care etc. thats not ALL they do jill.
Ya, They are all scummy.
Midnite, 10:37p: You’re trying to make the case that an abortionist isn’t scummy if s/he works
for Planned Parenthood? lol Abortionists are truly the scum of the earth. You don’t want me to start up with my abortionist jokes again, do you?
The devil visited a abortionist’s office and made him an offer. “I can arrange some things for you, ” the devil said. “I’ll increase your income five-fold. Your partners will love you; your clients will respect you; you’ll have four months of vacation each year and live to be a hundred. All I require in return is that your wife’s soul, your children’s souls, and their children’s souls rot in hell for eternity.”
The abortionist thought for a moment. “What’s the catch?” he asked.
Jill, I don’t know what the role of mifepristone is in late-term abortions, although I also have heard of it being used in conjunction with misoprostol (from a doc in Bangalore, India). That’s a good question.
You are wrong, by the way, about the abortion docs being “unable to cut it” in the “real” medical world. There are very few docs who ONLY do abortions–most do other things as well. Either general GYN or family practise.
Jenny, Medical Students for Choice is a national organization that represents thousands of medical students and residents.
To learn more, check out this article from TIME magazine:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101010507-107941,00.html
SOMG, thanks for responding. The relevant portion of the British study stated, “TOPFA at 16 weeks onwards was undertaken by a medical procedure using oral Mifepristone followed by either Gemeprost or Misoprostol to induce vaginal delivery.”
Later the study stated, “[F]or universally lethal fetal anomalies, there seems little justification for insisting upon a feticide procedure being undertaken in an already difficult clinical scenario.”
So mifepristone is apparently not intended to kill. I’m wondering if for late term abortions it helps shear the placenta from the uterine wall.
As for scum abortionists, I’m thinking of abortionists who do it for a living.
Mifepristone is used off label.
From The BNF
http://www.bnf.org/
7.1.2 Mifepristone
Mifepristone, an antiprogestogenic steroid, sensitises the myometrium to prostaglandin-induced contractions and ripens the cervix. For the termination of pregnancy, a single dose of mifepristone is followed by vaginal administration of the prostaglandin gemeprost. Although mifepristone is licensed for use in a dose of 600 mg, for medical abortion, a dose of 200 mg is effective for gestation of up to 24 weeks. Guidelines of the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists (September 2004)
Jill wrote:
Abortionists are truly the scum of the earth. You don’t want me to start up with my abortionist jokes again, do you?
And yet, Christ died for them too.
I’m not going to make any excuses for abortion. It is pure evil. But Christians are told to hate the sin while loving the sinner. We have prison ministries that preach the Gospel to rapists, thieves, and murderers. Why not abortionists? Is the sin of abortion beyond the power of the Holy Spirit to redeem?
I’m sensitive to this issue because I used to volunteer as a clinic escort. While I wasn’t actually participating in abortion, I was certainly assisting it. Since those dark days, I have accepted Christ and confessed my sins to Him. He has forgiven me.
Please remember: Christ died for all sinners. He died for me. He died for you. He died for clinic escorts and abortionists.
John 3:16 — “For God so loved the world….”
Naaman, I hear but don’t agree with your compassion for abortionists. I think it’s misplaced. If someone were shooting up a room full of two-year-olds, would you first preach to the murderer or save the two-year-olds?
The rapists, thieves, and murderers in prison have been captured for their crime, meted punishment, and separated from society. Ok, now let’s preach.
I appreciate that while abortion is legal, we can’t separate abortionists from society. But we can prioritize compassion and efforts, and we can call a spade a spade – as Jesus did.
Perhaps I should start calling abortionists vipers rather than scum.
Deuteronomy 27;25 Cursed is the man who accepts a bribe to kill an innocent person.
Jill wrote:
If someone were shooting up a room full of two-year-olds, would you first preach to the murderer or save the two-year-olds?
I would save the children, of course. But that’s not the issue that I’m trying to raise. To extend your analogy:
While you are saving the two-year-olds as expeditiously as possible, would you also take the time to hurl insults at the shooter? If so, how does that help anyone?
I appreciate that while abortion is legal, we can’t separate abortionists from society. But we can prioritize compassion and efforts, and we can call a spade a spade – as Jesus did.
Jesus saved His anger for those who were misusing religion and twisting the words of God. (So if you want to insult the RCRC, feel free….) He did not get angry at thieves, murderers, adulterers, or other sinners. Rather, He condemned their sins and offered forgiveness to the sinners themselves.
Y’know, rather than continue to try to explain how it should work, I’ll provide some examples:
http://generationsforlife.org/2007/0307/have-you-prayed-for-an-abortionist-lately/
http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/appleton.htm
(Joan’s clinic was where I did my escort duty, so her story is especially interesting to me.)
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa020701a.htm
http://realchoice.0catch.com/library/weekly/aa020901a.htm
http://www.catholic.net/RCC/Periodicals/Igpress/nov99/Interview.html
Summary: There has to be a way to oppose abortion and still offer compassion to those people who are trapped in the sin. That’s what Jesus would do, and those of us who claim to be His disciples should follow His example.
Naaman, I thought many times last night about my quick comment to you as I made my way out the door. I do realize Jesus reserved his criticisms for pious/hypocritical religious folk. Glad you’re following up.
I wanted to ask you your story. Do you mind? What brought you from being a deathscort to being pro-life?
Naaman, That’s great that you quit escorting. I applaud you for that.
Namaan,
could not agree more … the story of the woman caught in adultery … is a very good illustration. There is a huge credibility problem that occurs when Christianity is understood as a set of moral principles only.
with such a mindset – there is the Christian view vs other principled ideas: Christian principles vs the golden rule vs Wiccan principles vs Leviticus vs US constitution principles (esp. the preamble) vs various philosophic-‘isms’, vs … etc. The problem here stems from a lack of understanding of just who Jesus is {I purposely did not use the past tense and instead say ‘is’). I make a very large belief in what Jesus says re. this: “Moses told you this, but I say …’.
He is the Truth. Not ‘He says the truth’. We are called to live ‘in’ (strange word) Him … become one … and follow where He leads. Much too often, we get caught up in the propriety of things and would much rather not get soiled by the horrendous spiritual pain that is now being inflicted upon pro-choicers lives. [They are not going-to-hell, they are there now …] It is very difficult (for me) to see so many of these new-friends locked-in to the evil called abortion, but it an even greater problem to see very-good-folks locked-in to the rigidity of self-righteousness [they are even more in-hell].
Jill wrote:
Glad you’re following up.
I love your blog, actually. I’m even subscribed to your RSS feed. I just don’t often comment because you already have such a flood of commenters….
I especially like the work you have done on the HPV vaccine. As a Virginian, that’s a close subject for me. :-/
I wanted to ask you your story. Do you mind? What brought you from being a deathscort to being pro-life?
This was a long entry on my (now-defunct) blog. Maybe I can summarize it for you….
I was raised pro-abortion. My family went to NOW conferences for our vacations. I was given a NOW membership for my tenth birthday. (And I thought it was a good deal!) I was a voting delegate at the 1984 National NOW convention in New Orleans and at numerous Virginia NOW conventions.
When I was a teenager, our local NOW chapter started working with other NOW chapters to provide escort services to the Commonwealth Women’s Clinic in Falls Church, VA. Men were in especially high demand as escorts. I was a teenage boy, but that was close enough. So I went “on the line” so to speak. “Our” clinic was actually targeted by Operation Rescue once while I was on escort duty. When the OR folks entered the clinic, we escorts bravely hid in the dentist’s office downstairs. :-| I stopped being an escort when I went to college, but I remained fervently pro-abortion.
Fast-forward to the year 2000, when my wife was pregnant with our first child. She had a number of “bleeding scares” early in the pregnancy, and we were terrified each time that the baby would be lost. And I started to think: Why am I so concerned about “potential” life? What is this little unborn critter, really? And I realized that my unborn child was just that — my child.
Fast-forward to Good Friday 2001, when the Holy Spirit called me to faith in Christ. My wife and I started attending a Lutheran church ASAP. Several months later, our church did a class on evangelism. (Evangelical Lutherans … who knew?) During that class, there was one particular point that we stressed. All people matter to God.
So, if:
* unborn children are people, and
* all people matter to God
… then unborn children matter to God. And killing them is wrong.
John McDonnell wrote:
There is a huge credibility problem that occurs when Christianity is understood as a set of moral principles only.
That’s not just a credibility problem, but actually a radical misunderstanding of the entire faith.
To be a Christian is to be a disciple of Jesus Christ. That’s it. There’s no secret handshake, no password, and no hidden knowledge. (The Gnostics were wrong.) So how do we do it?
“That if you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord,’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.” (Romans 10:9-10)
Nothing fancy, right?
But the cost of salvation is enormous. First and foremost, it cost the life of God’s only begotten Son. Second, it costs the disciple.
Please don’t misunderstand me. We don’t earn our salvation. Christ already did that for us, and we’d insult Him if we tried to add to it. However, claiming Christ as your Lord will require us to change our lives and our priorities … if we really mean it. We’re used to putting ourselves first. Christ wants us to put God first, other people second, and ourselves last.
Being a Christian is not memorizing the Ten Commandments or quoting John 3:16 from memory, although those things can certainly be useful. Being a Christian is living as a disciple of Christ and (through Him) an adopted child of the Living God. No other faith can compare to it.
I think trained PAs should be allowed to do suction curretage abortions in the first trimester of pregnancy because it’s a safe, easy procedure that any competent PA can learn to do with a few hours of training, not because of any shortage of abortion doctors.
SoMG, if you have enough abortionists (I’m loathe to call them “doctors”) to do the procedures, why would you need PAs?
Tony,Good question!!!
Tony and Heather4Life, because they (PAs) are cheaper. Why pay for an MD’s time if you don’t need one? The cheaper you operate, the less you have to charge the patients. Patients (especially the uninsured ones) appreciate lower fees.
SoMg, I’ve got it now. You are a PA, and you do abortions.
Heather4Life, that would be illegal. The law requires an MD, (or equivalent degree, eg. DO) to do abortions.
Oh, I wouldn’t have known that. The less I know about abortion, the better.