Conversion stories IV: Janet
Janet began posting here two weeks ago and mentioned early on she was post-abortive. Following is Janet’s conversion story. The photo, right, is of Janet, taken from her blog. I applaud Janet’s honesty and bravery.
All through my teen years, I was a huge proponent of women’s rights. After years of preaching about how a woman should be able to do what she wants with her body, there came a time for me to make the choice.
All my friends were pro-choice. No one suggested options. I mean, I was 18, I had a big career and lots of moneyahead of me, I was smart and young, I couldn’t be a mother. No way. There was no choice to make. I was going to have an abortion. And that was it….
My counselor assured me of my decision. Now I could get on with my life, finish college, reach my goals, dump my jerk boyfriend – get my life back.
Next morning, I had breakfast and went off to my abortion. The waiting room was quiet. The abortion was noisy. I threw up on the nurse holding my hand. The doctor was annoyed but silent besides telling me not to move.
Afterwards, I sat in a recliner with other girls my age. We were all still. The doctor, still wearing his mask, told me everything went well. He patted my shoulder and left. Emily held my hand for half an hour, then left.
I drove home. I didn’t talk to anyone. I had made the choice I had been fighting for. All my friends quietly went about me. There was no more talk of rights.
Then I was 20. I was pregnant again despite the Pill, condoms, foam, and the sponge. Choice time again. My boyfriend asked, “What are you going to do?” After all, it was my body, my choice. I told him to get lost. I remembered the noises. The small something growing, then gone. I looked back over the past two years and saw none of the things that were promised me happened.
After my daughter was born, I knew what I had done two years before was wrong. It wasn’t “it” or a blob of blood. “It” was a baby.
I questioned all the things I previously believed. Hungry for truth, I studied books on life and faith. I looked for meaning. I tried to prove moral relativism – God was what you made God. The harder I tried, the more I became convinced of Christianity. I could not disprove Christ or His Word.
After all this, I became a Christian. I’ve been following Jesus for 11 years now. The mercy and love bestowed on me by the Lord is overwhelming. His Truth is what I’ve been after the whole time.
Right now, I counsel women who’ve had abortions. There are so many stories, so many hurting.
Women’s rights? Choice?
The death of a child is neither.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“After my daughter was born, I knew what I had done two years before was wrong. It wasn’t “it” or a blob of blood. “It” was a baby.”
Amen
She had breakfast the morning of a surgical procedure? This story already smells.
Then this:
“My counselor assured me of my decision. Now I could get on with my life, finish college, reach my goals, dump my jerk boyfriend – get my life back.”
“I looked back over the past two years and saw none of the things that were promised me happened.”
Was her abortion supposed to earn her a college degree, achieve her goals, and get rid of her boyfriend? Nobody “promised” her those things. Did she really feel that an abortion was going to improve every facet of her life?
Why to all the chicks in these stories seem a little unhinged? Go to the “Silent No More” site and read some of the testimonials. About half of the stories on that site are written by women with more than a few “issues…”
Wow Laura, aren’t we judgemental? This is what I hear time after time about post abortive women seeking comfort from the side of CHOICE. Nope, none to be found.
Laura, Heather is right…and by the way:
Was her abortion supposed to earn her a college degree, achieve her goals, and get rid of her boyfriend? Nobody “promised” her those things. Did she really feel that an abortion was going to improve every facet of her life?
Over and over we hear it from the pro-choice side…if you have carry the baby to term, you have no chance to reach your goals and dreams…if you abort, you have that chance, your life will be a million times better, blah blah blah blah blah. I believe this is what she’s talking about.
Janet, is that you in the picture? You’re so pretty! :)
Janet, you are very pretty! Also, please allow me to congratulate you on your conversion! That’s what is most important. I’ve had to learn some very painful lessons in my life too. I believe each and every lesson brought me closer to the Lord. I had to go through them to be drawn closer to God. Janet, God bless. Thank you for your story!
That’s me! Blah, blah, blah:
“Teen mothers are less likely to complete high school (only one-third receive a high school diploma) and only 1.5% have a college degree by age 30.7 Teen mothers are more likely to end up on welfare (nearly 80 percent of unmarried teen mothers end up on welfare).8”
I had breakfast and went off to my abortion…
This is interesting, as you aren’t allowed to eat for 24 hours prior to an abortion.
I looked back over the past two years and saw none of the things that were promised me happened. Referring to I could get on with my life, finish college, reach my goals, dump my jerk boyfriend – get my life back.
If she didn’t finish college or dump her boyfriend after the abortion, whose choice was that? No one stopped her from finishing college, and no one forced her to stay with her boyfriend. She chose to do those things: her abortion didn’t prevent her from finishing college, or force her to stay with her boyfriend. That was all her. She made those choices for herself. Abortion isn’t a magical cure-all that suddenly fixes everything in your life: if want to do something, you still have to actually do it. Looks like she didn’t.
Laura and Less, blah,blah,blah!
Heather, do you have anything constructive to add to the discussion, or will you simply make more inaccurate comparisons and….well, what exactly did you attempt to add with the above post? Anything?
And with this post, Less shows how sympathetic she is to the women who do in fact suffer after abortion…
Less,are you saying that you don’t believe Janet’s story?
Less & Laura:
She hints that the doctors were upset with her for eating prior to the abortion. Though I’m not sure if abortionists follow the protocol, there is something that you can drink prior to surgery if you have eaten recently. I know this first hand because I had to drink it before my c-section.
Also, we all know what the providers tell women about abortion. “Abortion will save your life”. Obviously the abortion did not fix the underlying problems in Janet’s life. The providers didn’t help her to overcome the issues in her life, they just killed her child and assured her everything would be OK.
Maybe they allowed a light breakfast? She did say she vomited during the abortion.
Less, 9:35a, said: “I had breakfast and went off to my abortion… This is interesting, as you aren’t allowed to eat for 24 hours prior to an abortion.”
Less, even before open heart surgery one is only to abstain from eating or drinking from midnight on, the day of the surgery.
Lauren, if there’s a way around it, I’ve not heard of it. I’m not disputing your claim, there might very well be a way around it. I’ve just never heard of that. It’d be interesting if there were, though.
I’m not disputing Janet’s story, just questioning bits of it. I don’t say that it didn’t happen: frankly, its most likely that she didn’t have breakfast, but remembers doing so as its a common part of her day. Memories fudging up a bit like that are quite common. Vomiting is possible without anything in the stomach, so its very possible that she didn’t have breakfast.
And Bethany, I’m about this sympathetic to people in general: if you make the choice to not leave your jerk boyfriend, you made that choice. If you don’t finish college, you made that choice. I’m not going to coddle and sympathize with people when they very clearly made their choices. You deal with the consequences of your actions in the manner you best see fit: how you deal with it isn’t my problem, unless you shuffle the blame off onto someone else.
You get pregnant, you make a choice. Abortion is one choice, so is keeping the child. Either way, you’re taking responsibility for your actions and doing something about it. You get to live with the consequences of either choice: if you have an abortion, you take that knowledge with you, for good or for ill; if you have the kid and give it up for adoption, you get to know its out there somewhere, for good or for ill. If you keep the kid, you have to deal with it for 18 years…for good or for ill.
“You get pregnant, you make a choice. Abortion is one choice, so is keeping the child. Either way, you’re taking responsibility for your actions and doing something about it. You get to live with the consequences of either choice: if you have an abortion, you take that knowledge with you, for good or for ill; if you have the kid and give it up for adoption, you get to know its out there somewhere, for good or for ill. If you keep the kid, you have to deal with it for 18 years…for good or for ill.”
yes, that sounds right:
murdering somebody is a choice; if you murder somebody, you have to live with it, for good or for ill.
Not rights or wrongs, it’s your choice after all. everthing is relative.
Church of Liberalism: Abortion is their Holiest sacrament (Ann coulter was exactly right)
It isn’t murder, jasper, as it isn’t illegal. Need me to prove it again?
She drove home?
I know several women who have had abortions. I’ve had three cosmetic procedures, and I’ve had my wisdom teeth extracted. No one is allowed to drive themselves home. That would just be a lawsuit waiting to happen.
Maybe someone did drive her home.
I drove home after childbirth.
“It isn’t murder, jasper”
one of the definitions of Murder:
to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously.
why, wouldn’t ya know, the MSM is at it again from their Manhatten bubble.
http://www.mrc.org/cyberalerts/2007/cyb20070514.asp#2
On a previous thread a poster, I believe SOMG, argued that patients do not have to be NPO(no fluids or food) prior to an abortion. Perhaps this is the standard in all abortion clinics so I’m not surprised that Janet ate.
Furthermore, if Janet had been properly interviewed prior to her abortion, this would have been picked up and her procedure cancelled if she had eaten when instructed not to. This is not unusual and I’ve seen a few surgeries cancelled because a patient ate. We always double check when they last ate in the pre surgical interview.
If Janet was instructed that she could eat and her procedure not cancelled when it was determined she did eat, assuming of course someone bothered to ask, then I too have some serious safety issues.
Mary is right about a pre-op checklist that asks the question on NPO status and cancelling surgery if the patient hasn’t complied.
One other point, Janet may not have been instructed at all one way or the other.
All this said, here was an example of pro-aborts either purposefully or myopically going off on tangents of minutiae and utterly missing the thrust of the post.
Heather4life,
So did I, 3 days later that is! Janet specifically says “I drove home” so I would take that to mean she drove herself. Again, not acceptable practice in any hospital, outpatient, or doctor office when a surgical procedure has been done. Patients are always advised they must have a driver and will not be dischared until one is found.
I’m on the choice side and actually- I ate breakfast the morning before my abortion. For very early term abortions, they pretty much tell you “Don’t eat once you get into the office.” And also, she could have well driven herself home- she probably had the local anesthetic option rather than the general one. Don’t know why though. That general anesthetic is good stuff :-) PP at least, suggests that you have a driver, but if you only get the local anesthetic and the ibuprofin, the effect is pretty much the same as driving home after having a cavity filled and novocaine shot in. It doesn’t really affect your mental state.
Erin,
Telling you not to eat once you get to the office is totally useless. If you’ve eaten breakfast you are at risk. Even if a local anesthetic is used, there is risk involved. If you were to pass out or begin seizuring after a local anesthetic its likely you would aspirate stomach contents and die. Aspiration of this sort is almost always fatal.
Yeah, the whole eating the morning of and driving herself home confuses me. I’ve had three major surgeries and my wisdom teeth out. Every single one them, I couldnt eat after 10:00pm the night before and I had to have someone drive me home (if either of these didnt happen, the surgery was cancelled or they wouldnt release me from the hospital).
All that I’m passing on is my experience. Both are completely plausible from what I experienced at PP when I had my abortion. It took about three hours from after I ate a couple pop-tarts just before arriving at the office to when my procedure was done. I don’t doubt her story- even though I disagree with where her experiences led her.
Perhaps Janet could clarify if she comes to post.
I do agree that Janet should not have eaten, and she should not have driven herself home.
Hi all,
Thanks for your posts.
Laura:
About breakfast-they did advise that I not eat, but the surgery was supposed to be quick, and I was starving! (hello, I’m pregnant!)So yeah, they were probably annoyed that I threw up rice krispies all over the place. I was not asked if I had eaten, they could not cancel surgery because I threw up in the middle of getting an abortion!
Also, am not blaming the counselor about my boyfriend. You are absolutely right, it was my choice to stay with him. I also felt very vulnerable, not a usual thing with me. I do think, however, the abortion clinic does push abortion as solving all the problems, though. They never encouraged any other “choice”.
About your “unhinged women” comment.
Those women are your fellow human being, and also women. Everyone has problems and hurts. To callously name them as less than you, that is not being pro-woman.
Less:
You are absolutely right. I have to live with consequences every day, as do you. Wouldn’t I be an uncaring hypocrite if I didn’t do anything to help other women make informed decisions about their pregnancy? I’m sorry you are not more sympathetic to women who feel they’ve made some bad decisions. I certainly did not think that the nurse was a fairy godmother that would take away my problems, but when you are unsure and scared, one does want to believe that abortion will fix the problem. There are many post-abort women that feel this way.
Erin:
Unfortunately, I did not have an early abortion. I was 13 weeks pregnant. I had a D&C and probably should not have driven. I didn’t ask questions, after all, abortion is akin to getting a wart removed, no big deal. I know that other girls that day most likely drove home alone as well.
Mary:
I agree, since abortion clinics are not under the same standards as other clinics that do surgeries, women’s health is at risk. I was not asked about what I ate that morning, nor about having a ride home. I did drive home myself. After being in the recovery room, there was a shuttle from the building where I had my abortion to the main hospital building. I drove home from there.
All of this is besides the point.
Abortion ends the life of a child.
I have four kids. I don’t have time to waste making up stories to fire up a debate. All I can do is tell my story, and let God do the rest.
Erin,
As you see I keep getting interrupted! That can happen a lot at work. Anyway, another reason to keep you NPO(no food or water) prior to surgery is that your procedure, no matter how “minor” can become more involved or complicated than anticipated. This could result in your requiring more medication and your becoming more sleepy. It could also mean a general anesthetic will be required after all. If you have a full stomach, just getting more sedate and sleepy is putting you at risk. If you require a general anesthetic, it will be necessary to cancel your procedure, assuming this isn’t an emergency If it is you’re really on dangerous ground. You have no choice but to give the general anesthetic to a patient with a full stomach at very serious risk of aspirating stomach contents into the lungs. Also, every patient has a different pain tolerance, so that while one does fine with a local, another may require much more extensive medication. Another reason to have a designated driver.
That’s why patients are required to be NPO no matter what procedure is performed. In fact, I consider it very shoddy practice that this clinic allowed you to eat.
Mary, you are right. I drove home after childbirth 3 days later as well. I wasn’t really thinking when I typed it in.
Yes, but that is 3 days later, not the same day or an hour or so later? Could you have driven yourelf home say three hours after delivering your child?
Hi midnite,
I’m sure you weren’t allowed to eat or drive because of surgery or getting a tooth pulled.
Abortion clinics are not followed up on procedure as hospitals are, even though they are performing a surgical procedure. I had mine done at a U hospital, but not in the main building, it was separate.
Again, abortion clinics do not let on that abortion is a real, surgical procedure. It shouldn’t be taken as lightly as it is advertised.
Jill, could you let me know if I’m wrong on this?
midnite, I was just correcting my above post. Big difference between 3 days and 3 hrs. I would NOT have been able to drive home 3 hours after childbirth. If I’d attempted it, I may still be driving.[in circles that is]
Hello Erin,
I don’t know your experience, wondering what that was.
I have not met a post-abortive woman yet that has told me abortion has not changed her life in some way, would love to hear your story.
Haha Heather, 3 hours after childbirth I was still high as a kite! It’s probably a good thing that I couldn’t move, or I would have been running down the hall trying to get to my baby!
Actually, I’m suprised I didn’t try. I was so angry that I couldn’t see my son. The only thing I didn’t like about my hospital was how they handled post c-section mothers visiting their children. I believe it wa 14 hours before I saw my son.
Janet,
Thank you for your testimony. I agree with you that those who support the abortion choice no matter what can’t stop feeding their sacred cow long enough to sympathize/emphathize with the victim. Instead of support, it’s criticism! May God bless your 5 littles ones here and in eternity.
I’ve read many a post-abortive testimony and can’t help but notice that while circumstances may be different, the regret and tangible sadness are intense common denominators.
Did you go through any post-abortion counseling?
Mary: Love to read your first-hand accounts of the medical aspects of abortion. It lends credibility to an otherwise emotional topic. Do the other nurses on staff with you share your view?
Carder
midnite,
just read your post.
I should not have driven.I did.
You are correcting Heather about driving after giving birth. I’m surprised and pleased you see what I am saying-abortion is real surgery. It is giving birth. You just come home without a baby.
Lauren, you ain’t kiddin. I had several meds. while in labor. One of the last meds. they gave me was for vomiting. It left me as confused as a Betsy bug.
Carder,
No, no counseling. I did talk to PP, they didn’t think it was a real problem. According to them, it was just hormones.
I totally credit God for healing. He has brought many into my life for emotional support.
Thanks for your encouragement.
I remember telling my husband that I “couldn’t stop thinking about volcanoes”. I think by that point I had gone pretty far around the bend.
Janet: It doesn’t suprise me at all that the clinic would let you drive home. From everything I’ve seen with abortionists, they have little care for the well-being of the women they “care for”.
Carder,
Like anywhere, I work with people who have a variety of viewpoints. We have people on all ends of the political spectrum and everything in between. I mainly avoid political discussions and I think most others do as well. Some years ago I went to a large prolife demonstration in Washington and the ladies in my dept. were mostly politely silent about it. I knew some agreed as well as disagreed with my viewpoint. It was no issue to me either way.
Thank you for your kind remark about my posts. I now work with mostly men in my department and they are always talking about hunting and fishing. UGH!
Mary,
I like what you said.
I would love abortion to NOT be a political thing, it totally takes away from the real issue.
Props to you for staying strong! That’s great!
Janet, 1:11p, said: “Again, abortion clinics do not let on that abortion is a real, surgical procedure. It shouldn’t be taken as lightly as it is advertised. Jill, could you let me know if I’m wrong on this?”
Wanting to first repeat we’ve gotten way off topic, this tangent of the discussion has unearthed more evidence abortion mills give slime medical care.
If Janet was instructed not to eat but did but no one asked her about it pre op, that was negligent.
I agree Janet should not have driven.
All I can equate this to is working in a hospital that treated women getting D&Cs after miscarriages (same procedure as Janet’s) far differently. We treated it as importantly as the surgery that it was.
Completion of pre-op checklist that included eating/drinking status.
2 hour recovery with RN in room at all times.
No release until able to urinate and eat
Someone had to be there to drive patient home or we called a taxi
On and on. White vs. black as far as medical care.
Bethany and Heather,
Thanks for your kind remarks.
Did you notice I am wearing only one shoe? :)
I was getting ready to “condition” for a big fundraiser when that was snapped.
Thanks for always encouraging and not condemning.
I sidewalk counsel at abortion clinics. Women come alone and drive themselves home all the time, often clutching their cookies and still wearing the arm band that they are given when they have a late-term, 2-day procedure.
Women coming and going alone (driving themselves) is not uncommon.
Bethany,
What you said at 09:25 AM is right on.
Laura,
Those are some sad stats you brought up. Right now I am involved with a crisis pregnancy center that wants to help young women in those stats reach goals without sacrificing her child to do so.
Heather,
I have indeed drawn nearer the Lord through many bad times. I’m very grateful for the hope I have through Him. Very sweet what you said, thanks.
Jill, thanks for the post. Did you get my e?
That’s me! Blah, blah, blah:
“Teen mothers are less likely to complete high school (only one-third receive a high school diploma) and only 1.5% have a college degree by age 30.7 Teen mothers are more likely to end up on welfare (nearly 80 percent of unmarried teen mothers end up on welfare).8”
Laura, got a question for you. Is college the only that one can pursue dreams and goals?
And by the way, don’t you think it’s time, based on the stats that you brought up, to help support teen mothers, instead of shunning them and making them feel bad for making their choice to carry a baby to term?
JacqueFromTexas,
Thanks for your point of view. I’ve often wondered what I looked like after my procedure. The guy that drove the shuttle to and from the main building was really nice, a grandfather type. The first day he was joking around and cheery. The second day taking me back he was quiet. I’m not sure if he knew why he was shuttling women back and forth to this building, I’m assuming he did. When I was leaving the bus, I looked back. His eyes were very kind.
May you be blessed in your counseling of the women God has placed in your path.
Hey, I found this really great article online, about teen moms. It’s from 1999, but I’m betting the information is still valid, and I could probably find another more recent article about it if I look some more:
Study Finds Teen Mothers Do Well
A trio of researchers have conducted a study on how successful teen mothers become. Their conclusions stand previous research on its head.
Joseph Hotz of the University of California – Los Angeles, Susan Williams McElroy of Carnegie Mellon University, and Seth Sanders of the University of Maryland departed from previous procedures by comparing teen women who have babies with teenagers who become pregnant then miscarry. Prior studies compared the former with teens who don’t become pregnant at all.
The researchers believe the new comparison weeds out irrelevant variants — such as economic and educational levels.
* They found that while having a baby does lower a woman’s odds of finishing high school, it raises the odds she will obtain a high school equivalency diploma.
* Women who have babies as teens spend more hours in the work force — an average of 2,600 hours more between the birth of their first child and age 28.
* By age 28, teen mothers earn an average of $9,800 a year more than women who delay childbearing into adulthood.
* The authors also report that women who bear babies as teens do not collect more from welfare — collecting more shortly after giving birth, but less several years later.
They found that teen childbearing lowers participation in Aid to Families with Dependent Children by 4 percentage points, lowers food stamp participation by 15 percentage points and lowers the poverty rate by 14 percentage points, when the mother reaches age 28.
Source: Macroscope, “Pregnant Issues,” Investor’s Business Daily, November 10, 1999.
http://www.ncpa.org/pd/social/social5.html
Jill,
We got off topic. I thought we do that on every thread!! Oh, and I forgot to welcome Janet to this site so, welcome Janet!
Jacque!
Bethany and Heather,
Thanks for your kind remarks.
Did you notice I am wearing only one shoe? :)
I was getting ready to “condition” for a big fundraiser when that was snapped.
Thanks for always encouraging and not condemning.
Janet, I did notice that! Then I saw it on the table behind you. :) heehee :D
Jacque!
Sorry for the double post. Somthing skrewy happened with my computer.
Hi jasper,
that’s so right about relativeness.
When I am being challenged about my faith, I can’t believe most of the challengers have this as the basis of their faith! Yikes.
I’m continually astounded to see things so differently now that the blinders are off.
Hey Janet-
You didn’t know about the pre-surgery fasting and the fact you wouldn’t be released to drive because you never had an abortion. You have a nice little scam going on your website, though. Nice way to get strangers to send you money. I think I’ll claim to have had an abortion too! It’s gotta be easier than working!
Thanks Mary!
I’m very glad to be here and get all points of view for something I am very passionate about.
Bethany,
Glad you noticed where the other shoe was!
I personally think I look pretty silly! Did my 5 miles, though (used both shoes).
btw, was able to raise over $3000 this year for a crisis pregnancy center! yeah! got some last-minute donations, but was very cool to reach my goal and have lives saved!!!
Jill,
How old is this one? What, you need a conversion story each week, so gotta dig back a ways? I suspect most prolifers would say they were prochoice at one time whether or not they were… makes it seem all the virtuous.
I’m seeing a theme here with these conversion: Prolife most of the time, cept when I have an unwanted pregancy… then I’m prochoice.
Hey Janet-
You didn’t know about the pre-surgery fasting and the fact you wouldn’t be released to drive because you never had an abortion. You have a nice little scam going on your website, though. Nice way to get strangers to send you money. I think I’ll claim to have had an abortion too! It’s gotta be easier than working!
Laura, this is precisely why women who suffer after abortion turn to pro-lifers, who actually care about their feelings.
Hey Laura,
The website you are referring to is actually a fundraising webpage for a local crisis preg. center. I did not intend to have it on this blog. Firstgiving.com is a website that charities use to help with their fundraising. None of the funds raised goes to me. Not one cent.
As for the fasting, I’ve already replied to that. You can tell the child I don’t have right now because of my abortion how you don’t believe I didn’t have one. How cold you are. btw, I’d rather work.
Scam? Go tell it to Planned Parenthood.
Cameron,
I’ve never turned back to pro-choice.
Virtuous? I’ve never called myself that.
Duh, I was definitely pro-choice back then.
I had an abortion!!!!!
For the unbelievers of my conversion:
I had an abortion.
You don’t me, I don’t know you. For all I know, you are a fourteen year old kid in a kangaroo suit playing with your computer.
It does not change the fact that abortion is legal. Abortion kills children. Children are human beings that are entitled to the rights we all enjoy in this world.
That’s the debate here. Go ahead, don’t believe me. I know what’s true. The many women that regret their abortion know what’s true.
sorry about the double post.
Janet-
My story isn’t quite as life-changing as yours. My procedure was only about a month ago, actually. I caught my pregnancy very early on- at about 3 weeks- because I had been constantly nauseous and always tired, whereas usually I’m very energetic. My boyfriend and I went through the entire ordeal together- we are both freshmen in college. I am actually adopted, which has caused some people to be surprised that I took the course of action that I did. I knew I had a choice, and the women I discussed my options with at Planned Parenthood were wonderful and supportive and gave me all the facts about every option. Dan(my boyfriend) and I are both very pro-choice, and I had been 100% faithful with my birth control- we just had a stroke of bad luck. Now we double up- birth control pills and condoms, every time. So we decided to have the abortion because neither of us were financially or emotionally ready to support a child, I had already been horribly sick for almost a month. I just didn’t react to pregnancy well, and most likely would have ended up on bedrest for the final trimester of my pregnancy- not to mention that I have a degenerative retinal disease, retinitis pigmentosa, that progresses more rapidly during pregnancy- as is, I have about 5 years estimated before I lose my sight. Carrying to term could have drastically shortened that. The week after my appointment with PP and the week before my abortion I miscarried- but at my next PP, they still found a viable fetus. So apparently I had been pregnant with twins. And I did look at my ultrasounds, both times that I had them. I saw something that had the POTENTIAL to be a baby- and I will love the day when I am adult and stable enough to see that potential that will evolve into my child. I didn’t feel any regret after the procedure- I felt relief knowing that I had done the right thing for myself and my boyfriend, and we grew stronger through it. So for those of you who say you have never met a woman who didn’t regret their choice to abort, I’m Erin, and I do NOT regret it and I never will.
Bethany, I find it interesting that when Laura questioned the veracity of Janet’s story, you automatically used the mere fact that she questioned it as fuel for the idea that the pro-choice side is not caring, and therefore women have to turn to the pro-life side for help.
The reason this is interesting to me is that while you were more than willing to draw a generalization about the pro-choice side based on one comment and claim that the behavior of the pro-choice side has psychological effects, many here will not accept the idea that (at least some) women who’ve had abortions deal with psychological issues because of what the pro-life side puts out.
Not only are there people standing outside clinics calling the women walking in “whores” and “murderers” and pleading with them not to commit an unforgivable sin, blah, blah, blah, but there are also giant billboards of doctored, fake, or holocaust photos with slogany messages about murder attached to them on the street. And then of course there are the commercials, bumper stickers and all sorts of statements in the media made about the evil of abortion. In fact, even people ON THIS VERY BLOG have said terrible things about women who’ve had abortions, and even said such things DIRECTLY to those women.
So why is it that Laura’s skepticism is evidence of the pro-choice side’s callousness and the effects thereof, but none of what I’ve listed above is evidence of the pro-life side’s callousness and the psychological effects thereof? I’m very confused.
Janet,
You take the words or should I say the Lord’s words out of my mouth.
You are free indeed.
God Bless You.
Cameron,
You can’t handle anyone coming to the truth can you? Even when it’s a dear woman who has suffered at the lies you and your fellow babies killers spew and someday will have to give an account for.
You are the epitomy of all that’s wrong with our society. I suggest you really try to understand what this women felt and went through at the realization that she killed her own child, realized it, admitted it was wrong to a Holy God, and now is pro-life. You should try to understand how a Holy God can forgive anyone of us for the things we do against Him when He doesn’t have to. Now that’s the real miracle.
For Jill, MK, Bethany, Valerie, Jasper, Janet and I all serve a wonderful Savior.
I really, really pray that some day you come to the same epiphany.
Erin, I appreciate your sharing your story. I admire your courage, and I’m glad to hear that you made the right choice for you.
Lies and promises… let’s review…
“Now I could get on with my life, finish college, reach my goals, dump my jerk boyfriend -get my life back.”
Is Janet still with her jerk boyfriend.
You people need to grow up and stop blaming everyone else for the decisions you make. It’s probably a good thing that you people find some direction in your bible/church, because you certainly don’t seem to have much going for you otherwise.
Sorry Cameron,
Her jerk boyfriend probably was the one who wanted her to kill their baby after she told him she was pregnant.
It’s usually the women who wants to do the right thing and you are evidence of that.
Real men don’t kill their children, they take repsonsibility for them and give their lives for them. You’re the one who should grow up sonny.
Diana,
So abortion doesn’t rip a baby apart?
“Real men don’t kill their children..”
No… they beat their wives and indoctrinate their children into a corrupt life. Cannon fodder.
HisMan,
Any reputable abortion provider (including oh-so-evil Planned Parenthood) would not give a woman an abortion unless they were sure it was HER decision. Of course, there may be individuals who slip through the cracks, but given the fact that they try to make damn sure that it is the woman who desires the procedure, your claim that “It’s usually the women who wants to do the right thing” (where I’m sure you used “the right thing” to mean carry the pregnancy to term) is at best dubious and likely false.
HisMan,
Technically, an abortion terminates a pregnancy, and in some later procedures will require “ripping apart” a fetus. And? When did I say anything to the contrary?
“and in some later procedures will require “ripping apart” a fetus”
..and you’re OK with that Diana?
Yes, I am, Cameron, for the exact same reason that I am okay with a woman who is being raped skewering her attacker with anything she can grab onto. I don’t care how gruesome the end scene is, a woman who is being raped has every right to defend her autonomy over her own body, even if that requires means that would offend our general sensibilities. Since a woman has a right to defend her bodily autonomy in gruesome ways in such cases (and this would include cases when, say, she was being violated by someone with a mental handicap who didn’t know any better – hence you can’t appeal to the whole “but the baby doesn’t know any better”) then she has the right to do it in the case of a pregnancy, even if that means doing something gruesome.
“and you’re OK with that Diana?”
Are you OK with hangers and mothers bleeding out?
Of course he’s okay with that. After all, they had evil sex and then tried to reject “God’s blessing”. She deserved it! Right, Jasper?
Oops, I addressed that post to you Cameron instead of Jasper. Sorry. I must have you on the brain or something :)
Laura,
Erin verified what Janet said about not being advised to fast pre-surgically, as well as driving oneself home afterward.
Mary, How did she verify that? Did I miss something in her post? The fact that she doesn’t mention being told not to eat doesn’t mean she wasn’t. It just means that she didn’t think it relevant to include in a post which, it seems, was partially meant to show that not every woman regrets her choice. Am I missing something?
Erin,
Thanks for your post. you told your story very honestly from your point of view.
I cannot tell you how or how you don’t feel.
I regret it. I know many women that do.
Also, when I got pregnant again, I realized all the things that I told myself were reasons to get an abortion were about me. IIIIIIIIIII.
Life is life. Calling a new baby “potential” is like calling you a potential senior citizen.
I don’t know what it’s like to have a degenerative disability. I don’t know you personally. What I’m talking about is life.
A baby, no matter how old, cannot defend themself. I’m glad you would like to be a parent someday and be able to cherish that dependence on you from a child.
Diana,
Laura did not just doubt my story, she accused me of running a scam and peddling my abortion for money. I call that callous.
Also, I did mention I was told not to eat. I was hungry. I was pregnant! They didn’t ask me the morning of, I didn’t tell.
I said I did not know anyone that didn’t regret their abortion. That’s the truth. Erin says she doesn’t. Since there are those that question my abortion, does that mean I can question hers? I don’t. And I’ve never met Erin either.
Erin,
sorry about the I’s. did not mean those.
Cameron,
Happy to report, not with jerk boyfriend.
Janet,
If you look at what I actually posted, you’ll note that I never said that Laura’s questioning the veracity of your story wasn’t callous. I merely asked why what’s good for the goose isn’t good for the gander (why does the pro-life side around here get to argue that pro-choicers are callous on the basis of one poster, but refuse to accept evidence of callousness on their own side?)
Further, I never said anything about your post AT ALL. I noted that Erin had not said anything verifying your claims in her post, as Mary had claimed she had.
I never said you couldn’t question whether or not she actually had an abortion. I never said you did or didn’t know people who didn’t regret their abortions. As a matter of fact, I never said anything about you, period, so I don’t have the faintest clue why you are coming after me.
But since you are, let me introduce you to yet another person who doesn’t regret her abortion – me. I have never regretted my choice, because I know it was the right one for me. I saw the ultrasound (which actually wasn’t very informative at 5 weeks pregnancy). My boyfriend at the time allowed me to make my own choice and he was willing to stand by me no matter what my decision. I have no doubt that had I not had an abortion, I would not be where I am in my life now. I would not have a Masters Degree. I would not be working on my PhD. I would not be speaking to my parents (who are extremely religious and would have disowned me for having premarital sex). I would not be the educated, passionate woman I am today. I would still be waiting tables to barely squeak by. Was my decision selfish? Perhaps. Was it maybe callous or mean of me? Perhaps. Did I have the right to do it? Yes I did. Was it the best thing for me at the time? Yes, absolutely. And I don’t regret it one bit.
I’m very sorry that you did not make the right choice for you, and I sincerely hope that you are able to come to terms with your regret (as, presumably, you are, by having a pro-life blog).
Diana,
Please refer to Erin’s post 12:06PM She states, and I quote “I ate breakfast the morning before my abortion”. She also states that “they pretty much tell you” “Don’t eat once you get into the office”. I interpret this post only one way, that Erin understood this to mean she could eat her breakfast and understood she was not to eat once she got to the office.
Janet was accused of making up her abortion because she said she ate breakfast prior to her abortion and drove herself home. Laura felt this was proof that Janet invented her abortion experience. Erin confirmed in her post that she did the same thing Janet did, eat breakfast before surgery and drive herself home.
It sounds to me like neither of these ladies were advised to fast prior to their surgeries. If they were so advised and ate anyway, as does happen, then a pre-operative interview would have picked up this fact and the surgery cancelled or postponed, as would be done in any other medical setting.
Mary,
Thanks. I had only been looking at Erin’s most recent post. My bad. I must say, though, I’m shocked by this. When I had my abortion I was explicitly told to fast from midnight until the procedure and they required that I bring someone with me to drive me home. Ah well.
No harm, no foul, Janet. I am sorry that you feel that you made the wrong decision, and congratulations on your child. I hope that in time both sides of the debate can learn to respect each other’s views and speak respectfully like some- but sadly not all- people on this site already do.
Diana,
You’re entirely welcome. Frankly I was shocked too.
Dear Janet,
Your courage is outstanding.
Thanks, Mary for clearing some stuff up!
Just putting the kids to bed.
Diana,
I wasn’t coming at you, I wouldn’t do that because I don’t particularly like it myself. Hope to hear more from you, am very interested in all views, even if they are different from my own. As far as sex being evil, I don’t hold that view. I believe it is a beautiful gift from God, although I do see it misused and exploited. As far as children being a blessing, I think there are those here that are not pro-life that still believe that to be true. What you said to jasper about deserving harm from an illegal abortion:
I don’t think that, most of us here don’t. As believers of Christ, how can we when we know we’ve all sinned, and that God made us in His image? That would be hating ourselves and God Himself. I’m sorry your parents would have disowned you had they known about your having pre-marital sex. I thought that my dad would want nothing to do with me (He is Roman Catholic), but when I kept my second child, he was so happy to have her as his grandchild. I was surprised and also very happy. I was a Daddy’s girl and I knew he was disappointed in me, but he still loves me and tells me every time I talk to him. Parents are not perfect, but I’m glad I gave my dad a chance to love his granddaughter.
Sarah,
Thanks, but cannot take credit for courage.
All that is good I give to Him that has given me Life.
Blessings to you!
To all:
Wow, it’s been wonderful to read all your posts!Thanks for all the encouragement, and also for even taking the time to read my conversion testimony. I believe everyone of you was made fearfully and wonderfully. Goodnight, ’til tomorrow! :)
Janet –
Thanks for sharing such a wonderful story. I am sorry that you had to “prove” your story. That should not have happened. I am very impressed how well you handled it and how well the “accusers” took your explaination. To me, this shows that we, pro-life and pro-choice, can talk about these issues in a respectful manner.
Erin,
Abortion is not a view, it’s murder.
Erin,
Abortion is not a view, it’s murder.
Cameron,
Did you just slander me by saying I beat my wife and indoctrinated my children?
Cameron,
You think you can’t be held accoutable to what you say on this site?
Think again.
Erin:
“I hope that in time both sides of the debate can learn to respect each other’s views”
Yeah, Wilberforce soooo respected the slave ships.
People with convictions should always act as if they really don’t matter after all.
Heck, MLK shoulda thought that way. Gandhi too! Nelson Mandela as well. And Alexander Solzhenitsyn never did attain the level of respect your ethic would have enjoined of him.
It’s a damn shame.
Erin:
“So for those of you who say you have never met a woman who didn’t regret their choice to abort, I’m Erin, and I do NOT regret it and I never will.”
That’s even worse.
I’ve never personally figured out why some pro-lifers spend time speaking publically about the psychic toll abortion takes on some women. True, they deserve help, and I salute women who help them.
But to my way of thinking, not having any regrets about killing the unborn is itself the psychic toll of something far worse than abortion itself. Why? Because anything that engenders indifference to the unborn is the cause of abortion in the first place. The more fundamental the cause of wholesale destruction of unborn human life, the greater the evil.
Erin, I dunno what — aside from the slow, steady tug of the river flowing in the direction it’s been going since 1973 (go with the flow, sister) — has left you without regret for killing your unborn child. But whatever dragged your mind into that kind of moral nightmare,
it’s beyond evil.
Anything that can turn a human being into an indifferent killer — one who’s pleased with her decision, even — is the enemy of humankind.
Diana:
Here’s your recent post…”I have never regretted my choice, because I know it was the right one for me. I saw the ultrasound (which actually wasn’t very informative at 5 weeks pregnancy). My boyfriend at the time allowed me to make my own choice and he was willing to stand by me no matter what my decision. I have no doubt that had I not had an abortion, I would not be where I am in my life now. I would not have a Masters Degree. I would not be working on my PhD. I would not be speaking to my parents (who are extremely religious and would have disowned me for having premarital sex). I would not be the educated, passionate woman I am today. I would still be waiting tables to barely squeak by. Was my decision selfish? Perhaps. Was it maybe callous or mean of me? Perhaps. Did I have the right to do it? Yes I did. Was it the best thing for me at the time? Yes, absolutely. And I don’t regret it one bit.
The following is the above paragraph with all the words except I, my and me taken out.
I…my…I…me…I….My…me….my….me…my..I…I…I….I….my….I….I…my….I…my… me….I…I……I…my….me…I…I…me… I….
Does anyone see a pattern here? Did anyone care about the baby?
Rasqual,
You speak truth my friend.
HisMan,
Cameron was actually referring back to one of Jill’s blogs in which she claimed that “real men” act like Mike Corleone when they find out that their wives have had an abortion – that is, they hit them.
Rasqual,
Just want to let you know that I’m going to save the posts that you’ve left for Erin for usage in later arguments about how pro-lifers treat women who’ve had abortions. Because it couldn’t possibily be the case that women end up feeling bad about their abortions because people call them “indifferent killers” who have succumbed to the “enemy of humankind” that’s “pure evil”! Thanks for the evidence. Would you like to try to make me feel bad now too?
Oh, ha ha! HisMan beat you to it. First, note that I was relating a personal story (hence the repeated use of ‘I’, ‘me’, and ‘my’). Second, note THIS PHRASE in the post you selected: “Was my decision selfish? Perhaps”. I do not deny that I had myself in mind. But whether or not an act is selfish has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not someone has the right to do it. So maybe rather than focusing on ad hominem attacks, you should make an actual argument.
Oh, and I’m saving this one too. Keep ’em coming boys.
Here’s a recent post from Erin explaining her killing of her innocent child in the womb to Janet taking out all the words excpet I, my, I’m, me, and myself…
My…My….I….I…I’m……My…I…I…I..I……I…I…I…my…me…I…I….I….I….my…I…I…I….my….my….I….my…I….I…my…I….I…I….I…my….I….I….I….myself… my…I’m…I…I.
Simply incredible.
Oh, HisMan, I’m so tempted to bait you.
The common thread that I see run through the minds of people who commit abortion are an absolute obsession with self more commonly known as narccisism and a thorough lack of conscience or a hardness of heart. It’s hard to understand in ones so young.
Someone please tell me how have we become like this? It is beyond being spolied rotten, it has become evil.
This is an extremely, extremely dangerous position to be in, considering that all of us are just one heartbeat away from meeting a Holy God.
Diana:
Why should self-congratulatory women be deemed vulnerable to such ill treatment, as you see it? If Erin and you are so very pleased with your choice, and if indeed killing the unborn is a matter of complete indifference and should be, I’d think this would be water off a duck’s back.
For what it’s worth, I’m a bit egalitarian in my old-school chivalry. I’ll open the door for women, but I won’t sugar coat truth out of belief that their sentiments deserve protection in the form of untruth.
You both killed your unborn children. That’s an undeniable fact. You attribute no moral significance to it. On that we differ. It’s a matter of fact that the moral significance I ascribe to your actions is at variance with your own ascription in a way that may be offensive to you. On the other hand, you have offended the unborn by killing them.
What’s worse, Diana? You living with an internet interlocutor’s ostensibly unkind remarks — an interlocutor you’re free to dismiss as a lamer, or on the other hand an unborn child whose life was snuffed out and will never have an opportunity to meet lamers or anyone else?
Doesn’t much matter. HisMan identified the only issue that really matters. The cadence of first person pronouns in your and Erin’s comments was practically aerobic.
Diana,
Bait me?
No, I am a fisher of men. I care about people’s souls and where they will spend eternity.
Not about the temporal issues of life about how I will live, what I will eat, what I will wear, how much money I will earn, me, me, me, me, and me.
You think yourself wise.
Wrong again Diana.
Cameron’s response was to my statement about Real Men made on this thread in an earlier post. I’ll forgive you because you haven’t received your PhD yet.
No, Cameron was speaking to me directly and as insulting as he could be. You don’t have to defend him….oh wait…….maybe you do.
You think yourself wise. You forget you are vulnerable, and to that end foolish.
Rasqual,
With respect to the aerobic cadence of first person pronouns, a person of your apparent intelligence should be able to recognize that 1) a large number of such pronouns will be present in any first person recounting of a personal experience and 2) that any inference from a number of pronouns in posts on a blog to the problems of society is bound to be a bad one.
As for your comments and those of HisMan, I don’t particularly care what you think about me. I’m fairly certain that HisMan thinks I’m a murdering whore who deserves the fiery pits of hell (and perhaps even hopes to laugh at me from heaven). His beliefs don’t affect me. (I take that back – I think their funny. Beliefs about that sort of intentional inexistent are always funny)
But you’ll note that I said I was collecting evidence. There are a fair number of posters around here who are unwilling to accept that some pro-lifers will say cruel things to women who have aborted, and will pressure them into thinking themselves evil. I’m sure you don’t have a problem with individuals doing that (since you’ve done it), but I merely wanted to have a little anecdotal evidence that it even happens around here.
Oh, and just so you know, I have never said that there is no moral significance to the act of abortion. I’m pretty sure that it is in fact selfish, and perhaps callous and mean. But moral significance only runs into legal significance when rights are involved, and I firmly believe that woman have a right to abort.
HisMan,
I said referring, not responding. And I’m pretty sure that comment was meant to refer back to Jill’s post.
And no, Hisman, I do not think I am wise. I think I am knowledgeable and intelligent. I don’t have the experience to call myself wise. And I am vulnerable. We all are. I don’t see how that makes us all foolish.
Wait, in the hectic moments of trying to respond to many posts at once, I didn’t read your post fully, HisMan. I stand corrected. Apologies.
Perhaps I should clarify that. Goodness how one gets led into ambiguities in the wee hours of the morning. I stand corrected about Cameron’s post. Not about my “foolishness”. How silly do I feel?
Diana:
Well of course women have a right to abort. And slaveholders had a right to own slaves, once upon a time. Pro-life doesn’t accept that as a justly perduring state of affairs, however.
As for evidence of “abusive” language, good grief. Again, the difference between what the unborn experience — termination of life — and what you experience in these discussions, is astronomical. The notion that you’re accumulating evidence is risible, Diana. Among other things, to cite a Quaker joke, “thou standest where I intend to shoot.”
“I don’t particularly care what you think about me.”
You’re intelligent enough to know that since I’d say the same thing to a man encouraging his wife/girlfriend to get an abortion, it’s not essentially your (a) being a woman or (c) having had an abortion that determines whether I direct anything you construe as callous in your direction.
If speaking my opinion about abortion’s character is abusive, I think the record shows (since you’re concerned to archive, you might wish to ferret a bit more) I’m pretty even-handed regardless of anyone’s personal experience with abortion.
I think you might be supposing that you’re entitled to a pass because you’ve had an abortion. No. You’re first a moral agent. If anyone wishes to opt out of being treated like one for reasons of personal sentiment regarding their past, they’re free to say so, of course.
While you’re running ethics, try Rawls’ veil of ignorance with regard to (a) the fetus, and (b) the mother.
As for the personal pronouns, of course you’re right. But context is king and after all, the unborn who’ve been long since aborted are not here to use personal pronouns in any story at all. They remain the past’s scattered third persons.
Diana,
Perhaps you think all those bad things of yourself, I don’t. We all have sinned and none is worthy of heaven apart from the blood of Christ.
Your stance on abortion is evidence of a heart in rebellion towards God. I’m trying to help you see that there’s a way out of that rebellion. It really doesn’t make any sense and is pregnant with foolish and childish pride. You can’t win. God is God. Surrender is the only solution. Even Jesus Christ had to surrender to His Father. I figure if He had to do it, well, I’d better do it to.
I want you to see the light of His love, mercy, and grace and be saved, nothing more and to be released from the grip of the evil one.
He hates you, I don’t. You should stop believing him. The benefits are eternal. It’s simple….God…help me see….let me see…if you’re real….show me. Can you say it…if only in the quietness of your own heart? Please don’t respond. Just let the thought sink in.
Peace…..and I don’t think all those bad things about you, I want to see you become all that God has for you….perhaps a revolutionary in the pro-life movement. With God, nothing is impossible. Have a good night.
Aaack! No, no — not proliferate ellipses!
HisMan, not to trivialize Diana’s real need for God (as with us all), but you have some repenting to do yourself. Ellipses. Dude.
His Man- I have long stopped paying much attention to your posts. I wish that you had a more compromising attitude- compromise is the building block of civilization itself.
And something for everyone to realize:
I realize that abortion is a ‘selfish’ choice- but that’s a major component in how people get anywhere in the world. If I never did anything for myself I would never have a career or an education. My choice to abort was for ME- and that, in my opinion, is who I should be most concerned with in my life until I am ready to marry and/or have a child.
“Well of course women have a right to abort. And slaveholders had a right to own slaves, once upon a time. Pro-life doesn’t accept that as a justly perduring state of affairs, however.”
Come now, Rasqual. You didn’t seriously take me to mean that women have a right to an abortion because the Supreme Court says they do, did you? I meant that they, in virtue of being persons, have a right to end a direct violation of their bodily autonomy in the same way that an individual who is being raped has the right to kill his/her attacker in order to effect cessation of the violation.
“If speaking my opinion about abortion’s character is abusive, I think the record shows (since you’re concerned to archive, you might wish to ferret a bit more) I’m pretty even-handed regardless of anyone’s personal experience with abortion.”
I’ve no need to ferret out further statements. Your statements here are evidence enough for me that you are willing to be consistent with regard to expressing your opinions. I did not realize that when first responding to your posts, however.
“I think you might be supposing that you’re entitled to a pass because you’ve had an abortion. No. You’re first a moral agent. If anyone wishes to opt out of being treated like one for reasons of personal sentiment regarding their past, they’re free to say so, of course.”
I don’t believe I’m entitled to anything because of my abortion, and, as a firm supporter of free speech rights, I would fight for anyone’s right to call me almost whatever they wished because of my past. I recognize that I am a moral agent, but I also don’t believe that, in obtaining an abortion, I have violated the rights of the fetus in protecting my own. My action may have been selfish or mean, but that does not mean that I did not have a right to do it.
My action may have even been immoral. At this point, I don’t believe that it was, since I don’t believe that a fetus is a person until true brain activity begins (at the very beginning of the second trimester), and my abortion was carried out at 5 weeks of pregnancy.
Nonetheless, I believe that while the moral is, in the end, about flourishing, the legal is about rights. And when it comes to rights I believe that my right to end the violation of my bodily autonomy supercedes the fetus’ right to life (Have you read Judith Thompson’s argument? Well, I buy it.)
“While you’re running ethics, try Rawls’ veil of ignorance with regard to (a) the fetus, and (b) the mother.”
I actually don’t buy Rawls, since I take constructivism to be either 1) relativistic or 2) viciously circular (given normative input required to get the whole thing started).
Nonetheless, I’m not sure that running the veil of ignorance here is of much help. First, we’re supposed to be drawing principles, not particularist responses to individual situations. So the principle in question would have to do with bodily autonomy. Can one end the life of another person to effect cessation of a violation of one’s bodily autonomy? Seems to me that the response of the rational agent behind the veil of ignorance would be yes, since there are, I believe cases in which it is much less cloudy as to whether or not this is the sort of principle we want (specifically, cases of rape)
(Note: if I’m the fetus, and my existence is ended, I’ll never know it. I can’t be bothered by it, because I was never the sort of thing that could be bothered. The question arises, then, whether or not one is seriously harmed by not coming into concious existence. From an atheistic/agnostic perspective, this question seems almost incoherent, since it is not clear who would be harmed)
Goodness this is a long post. Sorry
Lol, rasqual, ellipses indeed!
HisMan, I know that you have gone to bed, but just in case you read this tomorrow, I appreciate your caring (which, after previous discussions, was sort of shocking). I will warn you, however, that any attempt to convert me will be difficult. I was raised in an extremely religious household, and I’ve been through more Christian demoninations than I can count on two hands. I’ve researched. I’ve seen the arguments. I guess I just don’t have faith in faith.
Somewhere in Mississippi, circa 1830:
“I realize that owning slaves is a ‘selfish’ choice…”
Erin, the distinction isn’t as stark as between “never doing anything for yourself” on the one hand, and birthing a child on the other. For one thing, the best thing you can do for yourself is to not become the kind of person who is capable of justifying killing the unborn in order to “get anwhere in the world.” What good is it to walk a carpet that shade of red?
Rasqual,
The analogy to slavery is no good. There is a bing stinking difference between violating the rights of another individual who have in no way violated your rights, which would be something like owning slaves and violating the rights of another individual who is in the process of violating yours, like killing a rapist to get him off you, having an abortion, or – for those who’ve read the article – unplugging the concert violinist.
In the first case, selfish reasons can serve as no jusfication for an act that is not justified in itself (given the circumstances). But in the second case, the act is already justified on the basis of rights possessed by each individual in the circumstances, so the fact that selfish reasons motivate taking that already justified act seems to have little relevance overall. Some relevance, certainly, but not enough to justify illegality.
Anyway, it’s time, I believe for me to head to bed. G’night all!
You know, I’ve read every comment on this page.
I thank whatever powers that be that people like the pro-lifers who post on this blog don’t make legislative decisions. Ultimately, I could become pregnant and have an abortion tomorrow, and none of you could do a thing about it. You could vilify me, you could call me a selfish whore, but sticks and stones, kiddos. I argue here because I like to argue, and for no other reason: my choice, as of now, is free and clear and I can do whatever with my pregnancy I please. Your radicals viewpoint has done nothing and will do nothing to my choice, and if the time ever comes where I have to exersize that choice, I know exactly what I will do, why I will do it, and how I will react afterwards. I will defend my right to choose, and that fact remains.
You complain that the pro-choice side has no compassion for women. What about rasqual’s post to Dianna, and HisMan’s post to Erin? Do any of you call that compassion? You claim to be pro-life and hurl insults like stones; you claim to be Christian and yet you judge. I came here to see what the pro-life side is like: it solidified my pro-choice views more than anything I have ever seen. You all seem hateful and empty of all compassion, and willing to lie to get your side ahead. You swear up and down that you don’t judge, and cheer on people like HisMan. Do I really need to repost every single judgemental comment that man has made? It would fill the comment space.
The hypocricy you all espouse has made me glad that I’m not Christian; glad that I’m not pro-life; glad that my fiance is pro-choice. You’ve made me glad I have that choice. So thank you, MK, HisMan, Bethany, Janet, Heather, rasquel. You’ve made me more sure of my stance than ever, and more glad than ever that I left the Christian church than I did. Hope you’re proud of yourselves, that you represented your side the way you did.
Less, Please don’t even GO there! You say that you are okay with incest, as long as no children are produced from that sickening act. It sounds like you were already soured on religion a long time ago.You are just looking for something to blame it on. You say that pedophilia is okay with you as well. You said “As long as it doesn’t affect me.” Would you care to elaborate? Truthfully, I am having a very hard time taking you seriously after this! What valid point do you wish to make?
Less, grow up!
PS Less, I am very proud of myself!
Oh, and just so you know, I have never said that there is no moral significance to the act of abortion. I’m pretty sure that it is in fact selfish, and perhaps callous and mean. But moral significance only runs into legal significance when rights are involved, and I firmly believe that woman have a right to abort.
Diana, in your opinion, why is it selfish? If abortion is as you and others who are pro-choice say it is, then there should be no reason to call it selfish. Do you see what I’m saying?
By the way, I am sorry for your loss. I now understand why you have the demeanor that you have had. I had wondered why you were so very defensive, and now I know. I think that you are hurting, I know you won’t agree with me, but I don’t see any reason why you would be on here strongly defending yourself about abortion, instead of going on with your life, unless there was some reason…that you’re trying to convince yourself, or us, that you made the right choice for your situation. This is honestly one of the stages that many women go through, and lots of them do not even feel the full effects of their decision until 5-10 years after the abortion has happened. This is why your feelings right after an abortion are not reliable enough to decide whether you really have felt remorse after abortion or not. Many times it is the birth of the next child that makes a woman realize what has happened. Have you noticed that there are many reliable medical journals that show evidence that alcohol and substance abuse increases after a woman has has an abortion? The percentage is very high. Also, a woman has been proven more likely to be a smoker after having an abortion, and not just a few smokes here and there, we’re talking a big time smoker. Child abuse to subsequent children increases in women who have aborted. I see this as a result of hurt. And I know you may find it arrogant of me to say you’re hurting Diana, but I really do think you are, just as I think Less is hurting from something in her past. Your words reflect some kind of hurt…. the way you respond to things, it really does imply that you’re hurting. If you weren’t, you would not be defensive as you are against people who say what you did was wrong. If someone told me I was wrong to have, say, my gallbladder taken out (hypothetically), I’d look at them like they were crazy…I wouldn’t be defensive or respond in a hostile manner, because I’d just think it was so ludicrous it wasn’t worthy of a response. Or I’d make a joke of it and go on.
Do you see what I’m saying? It is human nature to try to convince yourself you’ve done right when you’ve done wrong. That’s why people who steal say to themselves, “Well, I really didn’t hurt anyone, because they can afford to lose a little”, and people who commit adultery say to themselves, “But I was lonely, and at the time it was the right thing for me.”, and that’s why people who have lied say, “It was just a little white lie”, people always try to tell themselves things that will make themselves feel better about the choices they’ve made. The only unfortunate thing about that is that because of conscience, those justifications only work for so long, before it starts to eat away at your very soul.
I know that there have been times that I have done something that was very wrong, but at the time that I did it, I actually sought out ways to justify my actions. I sought out ways to comfort myself and to assure myself that I had done nothing wrong. As long as I kept that attitude up, I was miserable. I became irritable and depressed, and believe me, if someone had confronted me about it, i would have said, “What do you know??? You just don’t understand what I was going through!”
But as soon as I confronted myself, and acknowledged that it was wrong, and decided to make an effort to change my ways, that is the very moment I came to a peace with myself.
I want you to have peace, Diana, and this is why I write this. I have had a few friends who said the very same things you have said in your post. They said over and over it was the right choice and they had no regrets. However, I was surprised when each one came to me in secret, and they told me how much they hurt, how much they wish they could take it back (and as soon as the words escaped their lips, they quickly added “but it was the right choice at the time”). They say that they think about their choice every single day. One of them mentioned that they missed the way their significant other would kiss her tummy before leaving for work each day. Every time the day comes that the baby would be born, she goes through a miserable depression. She finds herself getting angry with her daughter for no reason at times. These things are what make me doubt the veracity of the words, “I have no regrets”…because I heard these women utter the very same words, and in secret they came to me, open and honest about their feelings, and how they’re hurting. I tried to comfort them, but they could not be comforted. I really think that if they could forgive themselves, they could move on. But I think that it’s so scary for them to actually acknowledge what they really did. I mean, I think if they did acknowledge it, it would scare them to really think about what they have done. They don’t want to acknowledge it. I mean, they actually did tell me , yes , it was wrong…. but then at the same time, they say it was right for the time. How can something simultaneously be wrong and right?
If they could acknowledge it really was wrong, they could forgive themselves and go on. If they continue to say it was right, they will continue to sink further into the state of denial and depression that they are currently in. Anyway, like I said, I am sorry for your loss. Your baby was just one week older than my baby Blessing who I lost a few months ago.
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/miscarriage/
Diana: The Aristotelian in us should agree that “being harmed” can consist of not coming to appreciate goods one would otherwise have known. Teleology is a salutary element of a sound view of virtue, I’d think.
“Can one end the life of another person to effect cessation of a violation of one’s bodily autonomy?”
Ms. Thompson’s argument (hadn’t read it, but having now done so connected some dots for me with regard to the history of the issue’s conversation) belabors that violation motif a bit long for a traducianist like myself. The creation of life constitutes, to my mind, an obligation to see its trajectory through. Given how maternity works, bodily “autonomy” is apparently a darned unnatural state to assume for all phases of human life. Perhaps some legal theories are hostile to nature and thereby to nature’s nurture of her succeeding generations.
Less:
“you could call me a selfish whore, but sticks and stones”
Why would anyone here call you that? You’re not prostituting yourself, you’re advocating the destruction of unborn life.
“You complain that the pro-choice side has no compassion for women. What about rasqual’s post to Dianna, and HisMan’s post to Erin? Do any of you call that compassion?”
Even Diana (no stranger to inference) acknowledges that my remarks are consistent, regardless of whether a woman or a man is my interlocutor. Tell me, Less, am I supposed to condescendingly speak “more kindly” to women about abortion, than to men?
One of the problems with how a person is spoken to, of course, is that those who have actually chosen abortion of guilty of an act that those who haven’t aren’t.
“You claim to be pro-life and hurl insults like stones;”
Which insult that I’ve hurled do you have in mind, Less?
You complain that the pro-choice side has no compassion for women. What about rasqual’s post to Dianna, and HisMan’s post to Erin? Do any of you call that compassion? You claim to be pro-life and hurl insults like stones; you claim to be Christian and yet you judge. I came here to see what the pro-life side is like: it solidified my pro-choice views more than anything I have ever seen. You all seem hateful and empty of all compassion, and willing to lie to get your side ahead. You swear up and down that you don’t judge, and cheer on people like HisMan. Do I really need to repost every single judgemental comment that man has made? It would fill the comment space.
If they are suffering, then of course we have compassion for them. Need we feel compassion for someone who is perfectly happy?
Compassion:
a deep awareness of and sympathy for another’s suffering
Logically, it doesn’t make sense for you to ask that they be given compassion unless you are acknowledging that they are suffering.
I’m pretty sure what Less is apoplectic about, is that we’re not pro-choice. The comfort she’d like to see such women receive from us is to be assured in soothing tones that aborting their unborn child wasn’t as bad as all that, after all.
I’d remind Less that when comparing the actions of those who kill the unborn to those who remind those who kill the unborn that they have killed the unborn and shouldn’t have, those who actually kill are doing far worse than being insulting, and those who remind them of that are doing something far more important than being insulting. The irony that those who kill and remain impenitent demand sympathy from those who merely remind them that killing is wrong, is staggering.
One day I hope to have a vocabulary like yours, Rasqual. You state things so eloquently. I am constantly going to the dictionary when I read your posts. :D lol
Diana:
“The analogy to slavery is no good. There is a bing stinking difference between violating the rights of another individual who have in no way violated your rights, which would be something like owning slaves and violating the rights of another individual who is in the process of violating yours, like killing a rapist to get him off you, having an abortion, or – for those who’ve read the article – unplugging the concert violinist.”
You’ll need to invoke some other part of her argument. The concert violinist was foisted on our subject, as you’ll recall. This may apply analogously in the case of rape or incest, but her larrger argument acknowledges the limits of the violinist. Go there if you wish.
But here’s my question if we’re going to speak of what would justify illegality: have any court decisions cited Thompson’s argument? If there’s rational merit, it would seem pretty fundamental.
Or is Thompson more the kind of argument that you believe would fruitfully fund deliberative action in legislatures in Roe’s absence?
If I may take a moment to emerge from typical humility regarding my own darned modest gifts with language (honestly, I write carelessly): one writes the way they read. Read what you love to read — authors who use language in ways you admire. Subscribe to journals that showcase such writing. Your own writing style will change as a result.
Enjoying good literature tends to make one a bit like the Author.
This should be no surprise to most Christians.
:-)
LAUREN!
You say that pedophilia is okay with you as well.
Heather, I have never said this, will never say this, and have quite frequently said exactly the opposite. I invite you to go prove where I found it.
You say that you are okay with incest..
There is a large difference between being okay with something personally, and not wanting to illegalize it. I
Bethany, that is the most condescending statement I
Rasqual,
As Christians, isn’t that exactly what we are striving for! right on!
Valerie,
Thanks for your sweetly worded post. I’m sad this is a part of my past, but so happy in the arms of my Lord. His offer of grace and mercy are so abundant. Totally agree about respect. Thanks again.
Less, you condone pedophilia, because you believe that an 11 year old could consent to sexual relations with a fully grown adult man, who could very easily be manipulating her, raping her not only physically but emotionally too.
You believe that it is not only tolerable but acceptable that girls who are being raped are being sent back home, the crime covered up by abortion, where she can be victimized again and again. You seem to think this is the solution to their problems.
You support incest because you said you would allow it. Allowing it at all, is saying it’s “okay” with you.
I disagree with smoking personally, but I believe people should have the right to do it. Does this make me okay with smoking? Yes.
As for my being
Bethany, those were excellent posts!
:-)
Rasqual,
>i>If I may take a moment to emerge from typical humility regarding my own darned modest gifts with language (honestly, I write carelessly): one writes the way they read. Read what you love to read — authors who use language in ways you admire. Subscribe to journals that showcase such writing. Your own writing style will change as a result.
No wonder I sometimes sound like Dean Koontz…maybe I should aim higher?
Less:
“I
“One day I hope to have a vocabulary like yours, Rasqual. You state things so eloquently. I am constantly going to the dictionary when I read your posts.”
Bethany, that kind of writing is not “eloquent,” but pretentious. Please use your own voice and vocabulary, it’s more honest and enjoyable.
Actually, Hal, I always talk like this. It’s a curse perhaps, but it’s genuine.
Eloquent? I doubt it.
As for the allegation of pretense, that might be a case of bigotry but I won’t venture a confident attribution. ;-)
Rasqual, thanks for the non-inflamatory response. I didn’t mean to insult (well, actually I did, but I shouldn’t have and I apologize.)
Goodness I’ve missed a lot. If I somehow miss a comment, please forgive me.
Bethany,
The reasons I consider abortion to be selfish is that the motives behind it are usually selfish, and because it is my intuition that the parent who refuses to donate a kidney to a child is selfish, and the person who unplugs the concert violinist is selfish. But that doesn’t mean that one doesn’t have a right to do it, as legal rights and the moral standing of selfish actions are two totally different things.
I appreciate your caring, Bethany, but I also found your remarks rather condescending. I do not mean this to be some sort of charge against you. It’s just that you and I have different perspectives about abortion, and hence differen psychological reactions to it. I understand that it may be difficult for some to understand that others would fail to regret an act like abortion. Given how you feel about the subject, it is not surprising to me that you would assume that I must be hiding guilt and pain. The fact of the matter is that I had my abortion six years ago. I only very recently became interested in defending a woman’s right to choose, probably due to the fact that I am at one of the foremost universities for bioethics, and my colleagues are hence often speaking about bioethical questions like abortion.
Again, Bethany, I very much appreciate your caring. I would request, however, and I mean this with all due respect and in the spirit of friendship, that you refrain from making assumptions about my mental states without knowing a good deal more about me.
Rasqual,
“Diana: The Aristotelian in us should agree that “being harmed” can consist of not coming to appreciate goods one would otherwise have known. Teleology is a salutary element of a sound view of virtue, I’d think.”
Sure. But note your use of “one”. From an atheistic/agnostic perspective, it’s not clear that there is a “one” who is deprived of those goods.
At any rate, I’m starting to think that you and I are coming from this from two totally different angles. You seem very interested in arguing to the conclusion that abortion is immoral (or in this case, vicious – in the Aristotilean sense). While I’m not sure HOW vicious it is, I’m willing to grant that premise. My interest is in defending the right of a woman to have an abortion, not her moral status in doing so.
“Ms. Thompson’s argument (hadn’t read it, but having now done so connected some dots for me with regard to the history of the issue’s conversation) belabors that violation motif a bit long for a traducianist like myself. The creation of life constitutes, to my mind, an obligation to see its trajectory through. Given how maternity works, bodily “autonomy” is apparently a darned unnatural state to assume for all phases of human life. Perhaps some legal theories are hostile to nature and thereby to nature’s nurture of her succeeding generations.”
Hmmm.. how does the creation of life constitute an obligation? There’s a lot more work to be done there. Your statement that autonomy is unnatural for all phases of human life sounds, to me, like a claim that a woman’s right to autonomy ends the moment she conceives. (Please correct me if I’m misunderstanding) But why would it? I can hear the Aristotilean response coming… pregnancy is natural. But so is sex, yet a woman who engages in sexual intercourse has not given up her right to bodily autonomy. At least in my opinion (although others here disagree), she may revoke permission to use her body at any time during that act. She still holds the right to “set use priviledges”, if you will, over her body, and to withdraw consent to use. (The same goes for men as well, by the way) Both processes are natural. Both involve use of the body and hence issues of bodily autonomy. So why would a woman retain her right in one but not in the other?
“You’ll need to invoke some other part of her argument. The concert violinist was foisted on our subject, as you’ll recall. This may apply analogously in the case of rape or incest, but her larrger argument acknowledges the limits of the violinist. Go there if you wish.”
Certainly, her argument does not seem to readily apply to consensual sex. But the case can easily be tweaked in order to do so. Simply imagine that the damage to the body of the violinist is your fault. You were driving very recklessly, with the full knowledge that you might hurt someone as a result. And what do you know? You’re in an accident which results in injuries to the violinist, and when you wake up, the doctors have plugged him into you. My inuition is that your rights are the same. You may unplug him. Is it selfish and mean? Sure. But you still have a right to do it, even though it’s your fault.
“But here’s my question if we’re going to speak of what would justify illegality: have any court decisions cited Thompson’s argument? If there’s rational merit, it would seem pretty fundamental.
Or is Thompson more the kind of argument that you believe would fruitfully fund deliberative action in legislatures in Roe’s absence?”
I don’t believe that decisions have cited Thomson’s argument. And no, I don’t believe it would be useful in deliberating legislative action (mainly because the typically, non-philosophically trained response to the argument is “phooey” – see previous blogs for evidence). One would think the could would have looked at it, but I’m not up enough on the actual legal work to say. I’m more interested in the philosophical arguments.
Diana, I apologize if I have come off sounding condescending…that’s not my intent.
All I have to base my feelings about you are on the computer screen. And based on my experiences with post abortive women, and hearing how similar the wording you and they use, it’s difficult for me to believe or understand that someone would not feel regret after an abortion. But if you truly do not, I’ll accept that…however, that actually makes me feel that maybe the situation is worse.
Regarding your responses about other selfish acts…
Would you not feel any kind of regret or remorse had you unplugged the violinist? Even if it wasn’t technically “murder”? Would you not feel any regret or remorse if you had refused your own child a kidney?
And if you didn’t, do you think you would you be a better, or a worse person for it? Do you never think you might look back and wish you had done things differently?
Actually I was refering to Mike Corleone. I thought it was pretty obvious… since it’s become a reoccuring theme invoking “real men”
Thanks for the defense Diana, and no doubt HisMan is still offended by anything I would say, as if I kicked his daughter in the face and used the bible to sexually abuse her. Absent any capacity to make a point, they must resort to excessive exagerations.
Diana:
Yes, I am, Cameron, for the exact same reason that I am okay with a woman who is being raped skewering her attacker with anything she can grab onto. I don’t care how gruesome the end scene is, a woman who is being raped has every right to defend her autonomy over her own body, even if that requires means that would offend our general sensibilities. Since a woman has a right to defend her bodily autonomy in gruesome ways in such cases (and this would include cases when, say, she was being violated by someone with a mental handicap who didn’t know any better – hence you can’t appeal to the whole “but the baby doesn’t know any better”) then she has the right to do it in the case of a pregnancy, even if that means doing something gruesome.
So is abortion a selfish act, or not? On one hand, you say it is selfish. Yet, on the other hand, you say it’s justifiable and reasonable, based on the idea that the fetus is equatable to a rapist and the woman is defending herself against the rapist who seeks to harm her. If it’s done in self defense, how is it selfish?
Bethany,
Thanks for the apology. I’m sure that you didn’t. Although I’m a little shocked by your further comment that you’re “afraid the situation is worse”. As if somehow I’m evil because I don’t regret an action that I believe I had a right to do and that I believe was the best thing for me to do at the time? Hmmm… once again, differences in worldview mean a lot. You and I have different worldviews, Bethany. I see things one way and you see them another. And I have no problem with the idea that we might judge one another’s world views, but there is a difference between judging the worldview and judging the person who consistently adheres to it.
Would I feel regret for unplugging the violinist? Perhaps. I don’t know. I’ve never been in that situation. I can say for sure that had my abortion been later term, I would have had greater regret. But that has a lot to do the my view of personhood, for while I believe that whether or not the fetus is a person, a woman has a right to abort, I do believe that the status of the fetus as a person impacts the moral status of the action. Since I don’t believe that a fetus becomes a person until true brain activity begins (2nd trimester), I don’t believe that a 1st trimester abortion is wrong. We will undoubtedly disagree about the status of the fetus as a person, and my arguments for the legality of abortion don’t hinge on it. But that’s a big part of the reason that I don’t feel regret for my abortion while I might regret unplugging the violinist.
Cameron,
You’re welcome for the defense. I thought it was obvious what you were talking about, but I ended up thinking that maybe he was referring to a post that I had missed somewhere up there. A deriding reference to the Corleone post has to be thrown in there every once in a while. :)
Bethany,
There are so many subtleties here. Both acts are selfish. It’s self-defense, right? The goal is defense of self. That’s selfish. The problem I think, here, is that you and I have different understandings of the implications of the world “selfish”. You seem to think that “selfish” automatically implies “wrong”. I don’t. I think one might do the right thing (say give to charity) for selfish reasons (say, because they know it makes them feel good), and it would still be a good thing.
Now, I do see a difference in moral standing of killing a rapist and having an abortion. The reason I see a difference in moral (though not legal) standing is because of the difference in intent between a rapist and a fetus. I see the same difference between killing a mentally capable rapist who knows exactly what he’s doing and killing a mentally handicapped rapist who doesn’t know that he’s doing wrong. It seems there is something mean in the second case. It seems that the mentally handicapped rapist doesn’t deserve the same treatment as the other rapist. That difference is the sort of difference that I see reflected in abortion. The fetus, I will grant, does not “deserve” to die. But that doesn’t change the fact that a woman has a right to kill it to maintain her bodily autonomy in the same way that she has a right to kill the mentally handicapped rapist to get him off her. Do you have different intuitions?
P.S. Something can be justifiable and reasonable and still be selfish. I don’t see how those are in anyway incompatible.
Thanks for the apology. I’m sure that you didn’t. Although I’m a little shocked by your further comment that you’re “afraid the situation is worse”. As if somehow I’m evil because I don’t regret an action that I believe I had a right to do and that I believe was the best thing for me to do at the time?
Diana, now you are the one making assumptions. I never was trying to say that you are “evil”.
I think you probably have much good in you, but I think this situation is worse because of the fact that you do not regret it.
Using your own example again, if you refused your child a kidney, and he died as a result of that….if you reaction was one like, “Well it was my choice and my right to do it!”, I would think it was horrible. Wouldn’t you find someone who reacted that way to that situation to be acting very cruelly? If your reaction was one of regret, I could be understanding and try to comfort you and give you support and a shoulder to lean on until you were able to forgive yourself and move on. Wouldn’t you feel more inclined to be supportive of someone who not giving their child a kidney, than pf someone who did not care about what they did, and even wanted to become actively involved in making sure that other parents knew that it was okay to not give children kidneys because she didn’t personally feel remorse for doing so?
I don’t think that MOST women that have abortions are evil. I think the act itself is evil. Actually Dianna you do seem like a nice lady. Nice to see you back.
There are so many subtleties here. Both acts are selfish. It’s self-defense, right? The goal is defense of self. That’s selfish.
No, Diana, Selfish is much different than that.
Protecting yourself from harm is not selfish.
self
Bethany and Dianna, I didn’t mean to dip in on you guys. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents.
Bethany, I agree with your above post.
Oh heather, no problem at all! I love hearing your input. ;)
Bethany,
This is going to be short because I have to run, but you don’t think that killing another person to defend your life is “manifesting concern or care only for oneself”? Seems like it is to me. And it seems like there is nothing wrong with it.
And I never said that there wasn’t something cruel or immoral about not giving the child a kidney. Please don’t build up straw men and then try to beat them down. It’s frustrating and it hinders progress. The fact that an action is selfish doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY make it immoral. that was my point.
Now whether it’s being selfish in concert with other things may very well make the refusal to give one’s child a kidney immoral. I believe I may have implied, at other points, that it very well may be immoral. But once again, there is a difference between what’s immoral and what we have a right to do. There are lots of immoral things that we have the right to do, and there are lots of things that are not immoral that we don’t have a right to do (engage in treaties with other countries, for example).
As for the mentally ill person, I guess you and I just have different intuitions here. The whole point of making him mentally ill in the example was that there is no conscious choice involved, or rather, there is no informed choice. I don’t believe that you can choose an action (in the sense of voluntary action) if you don’t understand what that action amounts to. (See St. Thomas Aquinas’ work on volunatary or involuntary actions for some thought on this). So the handicapped man’s action is, for me, just as involuntary as the fetus’ is, at least with regard to any sort of moral culpability. Hence neither “deserve” to die.
I apologize for making the assumption. It just seemed striking to me that you would move from apologizing into claiming that “the situation is worse”. I guess it seemed, on it’s face, like a passive aggressive attack. Again, my apologies for jumping the gun.
Maybe this wasn’t so short, but at any rate, I’ve gotta go. See you later.
Diana:
“From an atheistic/agnostic perspective, it’s not clear that there is a ‘one’ who is deprived of those goods.”
That it is not clear should not let the supposition proxy as the ultimate question-begging show-stopper in abortion arguments. If there’s no “one” home, then obviously pro-life is wrong.
But to humor the notion only briefly, doubt about “one” is as true of you and me when we’re in deep sleep. The Cogito — a foundationalist grounding if ever there was one — isn’t operative at such times. And it’s not obvious to me that brain waves are a sufficient bridge between conscious occasions to warrant differentiation between [you and me] and [fetal life] (with brain waves). “We’re conscous adults when not in repose.” The only impressive thing about that obvious fact is its sentimental value — unless Thompson’s argument was actually prepared with just this in mind (rather than mere analogy to the silence of the womb).
Since the show-stopper in question is the only real answer you’ve raised to a Rawls’ experiment, I’d encourage you to run that more thoughtfully. Fascinatingly, the moment you apply a categorical imperative to a decision for maternal autonomy (though I can’t imagine why that would be the outcome), only stochastics can save the human race from extinction if maternal autonomy is elected.
I’ll have to disagree that autonomy is unalienable — and that’s not driven strictly (or even primarily) by pro-life concerns. I think you’ll find plenty of pro-choice and pro-life folk who’d agree on that. I mean, it’s nice for folks to rally around Ginsberg and all, but hey. ;-)
“how does the creation of life constitute an obligation?”
[shrug] Turn that into a proposition, obvert it, and see if it’s viable.
Everyone’s kid a street urchin. ;-)
“But so is sex, yet a woman who engages in sexual intercourse has not given up her right to bodily autonomy.”
Then it’s some pretty platonic sex.
“So why would a woman retain her right in one but not in the other?”
Only a small minority of women treat their sex partners as if they were mantis males. ;-)
But let’s look at your tweaked violinist. Consider what happens in the case that the person hooked to the violinist dies. Is the doctor obliged to continue with lifesaving efforts? If not, then it’s difficult to imagine why the dead benefactor should have been obliged to help at all. If the doctor IS obliged to continue with lifesaving efforts, my question would be simple: why?
I can’t imagine Thompson’s argument wouldn’t be useful in deliberative bodies. True, legislators have time for little more than to bark orders for their staffs to do the hard work of actually thinking, but hey. ;-)
Diane, people who are selfish are self-absorbed and egotistical. It’s all about them. They look out only for their own wants and desires, ignoring the perspectives and feelings of others. That’s what selfish means. Selfish does not describe a woman who is being attacked and retaliates.
….And it doesn’t mean caring for yourself only in a context of two people…it means that you consider yourself more important than anyone, period.
And I never said that there wasn’t something cruel or immoral about not giving the child a kidney. Please don’t build up straw men and then try to beat them down. It’s frustrating and it hinders progress. The fact that an action is selfish doesn’t AUTOMATICALLY make it immoral. that was my point.
Yes, but you’re missing my point, which is:
If you can think that it’s immoral to deny a child a kidney, even though you do not consider it murder, and you find it plausable that a person might feel regret after denying a child a kidney, which apparently they have every right to do, then why is it implausable that women could feel regret after having an abortion, which you do not consider murder, and why is it inconceivable that the majority of women who choose themselves over their child feel a certain amount of regret for it, regardless of whether they view it as “murder” or not?
I apologize for making the assumption. It just seemed striking to me that you would move from apologizing into claiming that “the situation is worse”. I guess it seemed, on it’s face, like a passive aggressive attack. Again, my apologies for jumping the gun.
Oh no problem, it’s easy to do in debate.
I am never ceased to be amazed at all of the endless chatter that follows these confessions, which are MEANT TO HELP WOMEN SEE THAT ABORTION IS NOT THE ANSWER! Everyone has to make a statement and be right about something. This girl wants you to know that life is precious, and if God gives you a baby, it is not your right to kill it. A baby is not something which gets in the way of your education and financial success. Yes, it is more difficult to juggle family and jobs, but it can be done. Life is not perfect for anyone, with or without children. Praise God for the women who are willing to tell their story. I hope more women will reveal their post abortion stories so we all can learn of the heartache which abortion brings! Alayna Staggers
Hi Alayna,
Thanks for getting right down to it. I praise God for those in the medical field like yourself and Jill for getting the message out about abortion, and the lives destroyed by it.
I’ve noticed that all these debates end up with “prove to me there is a God”. The sanctity of life starting leaving are country when we rejected the Lord. Although I obviously cannot force anyone to believe anything, I do pray that hearts will be softened and lives changed by God’s hand. I care for all these people here, even though I’ve never met any of them.
~janet
Hi Alayna. I have seen your excellent posts on Operation Rescue. Please stay!
Hi Heather,
Forgot to ask:
You mentioned some sites for post-abortive women. Could you tell me those again? I’d love to know more about others who have had similar experiences.
Thanks, your passion for Life is wonderful!