Weekend question
Moderator Tim Russert posed the following to Sen. Hillary Clinton during the September 26 Democrat presidential debate:
RUSSERT: I want to move to another subject, and this involves a comment that a guest on “Meet the Press” made, and I want to read it, as follows: “Imagine the following scenario. We get lucky. We get the number three guy in Al Qaida. We know there’s a big bomb going off in America in three days and we know this guy knows where it is. Don’t we have the right and responsibility to beat it out of him? You could set up a law where the president could make a finding or could guarantee a pardon. Should there be a presidential exception to allow torture in that kind of situation?”
In actuality, this was a pro-life question, and a particularly deep one if the extent of torture allowed in this scenario could lead to death. So I’ll likewise pose it to you.
(FYI, Clinton’s response was, “As a matter of policy it cannot be American policy period….” Then, in a classic journalist “gotcha” moment, Russert responded: “The guest who laid out this scenario for me with that proposed solution was William Jefferson Clinton last year. So he disagrees with you.” See video of entire exchange here.)
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Bill Clinton ‘loved’ his wife’s ‘he’s not standing here’ moment
Tonight on MSNBC-TV’s Countdown with Keith Olbermann (8 p.m. ET), former president Bill Clinton is asked about the moment during last night’s Democratic debate when Tim Russert pointed out that Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton might disagree with her husband about whether it’s ever a good idea to torture suspected terrorists.
Sen. Clinton, who had just said torture is not permissible, said of the possible conflict with the former president that “well, he’s not standing here right now.” (Video clip here.)
According to a transcript of the pre-recorded Olbermann interview that MSNBC just e-mailed to reporters, president Clinton says:
I loved it. I thought to myself, you know, Tim Russert is a very clever interviewer, he thought that he had trapped her, and instead she made the obvious point that if she is elected, she will be the president, I won’t, she will make the final call and I completely agree with her about the policy. The United States has to be against terror.
As a matter of fact, what I really was talking about with Tim Russert is what happens when 24 –
I (almost) agree with Laura. We shouldn’t torture because torture is wrong. Also, considering that torture isn’t an effective interrogation technique, there is absolutely no good reason and plenty of bad reasons to torture.
The scenario of us having a terrorist leader in our grasp and us having to get info from him to stop an attack doesn’t justify torture, because as I said, torture isn’t an effective means of getting good information.
Where I slightly disagree with Laura is in the idea that if we used torture, it would make Americans vulnerable to the same treatment. Our enemies have shown that they have absolutely no regard for human life, and will torture people regardless of how well we treat our prisoners. There is little hope that al-Qaeda will stop torturing people, but we should never torture.
Torture is always wrong.
It also dehumanizes the perpetrator.
What is the point of neutralizing a terrorist plot only to be come a terrorist yourself?
Let’s not sell out to the dark side (again) for possible gain.
What should we do then, give them a cookie?
Hi Jill,
this question poses quite a different dilemma than is obvious. The means (torture) is done for several political reasons and least of all to get accurate information. The reason for torture is to intimidate by coercion. If anyone fears enough, they will support the abuser: in a vain hope that they won’t be hurt so bad. – ask any child-abused kid.
Isn’t nuclear threat used precisely the same way? MK talked a few days back of the horrors resulting from depleted uranium weaponry: isn’t having horrible carnage exactly what terrorists want? Is the US now using terror? … rule by intimidation – carrying THE big-stick.
If a person wishes exactly true information, they can use the type of lie-detecting device described by Richard Restack in his book ‘The Brain; The Last Frontier’. Apparently any lie takes a different neural pathway than does the truth. The machine notes this difference. And there are two things that apply here – 1) any person (no matter how well coached) cannot lie without it being revealed; 2) the person need not verbally respond … the reaction in the brain occurs prior to this. So, indicating on a map will hone in on any hidden weapon and no torture is needed at all.
By the way, if this device was made available: a society without falsehood could ensue. No need for judges, juries, gossip, false imprisonment, fibbing politicians or other salesmen etc..
John M.
you quoted:
” justice is when you give the excess from what you need to survive; charity BEGINS when you give from what you need to survive.”
Thanx so much.
I will pass this notion on.
1. Torture is always wrong. No matter who it is.
2. Torture encourages false information and increases both the perception of the prisoner to be a “martyr” for their cause and hostility towards us and reenforces already skewed perception of America. This has been proven throughout history.
The CIA’s “Human Resource Exploitation Manual” of 1983 said, “Use of force is a poor technique.” Joe Navarro said that threats “taint information gained from sessions…The only thing that torture guarantees is pain, it never guarantees the truth.”
3. Such a situation is unlikely to exist, no matter how many times TV and movies try to recreate them. Real interrogations rarely (if ever) contain the combination of elements that must come together for the ‘ticking time bomb’ scenario to be realized. Interrogators rarely know whether a prisoner has foreknowledge of a specific and imminent crime. Even if a prisoner knows about a future crime, that information is rarely of immediate utility to interrogators. Analysts must fit the prisoner’s knowlege into a larger puzzle, a process that usually takes a considerable amount of time. It is usually just a justification to enact torture policies.
4. We gain much more useful information from people by building rapport, articulating common interests, and exploiting a prisoner’s jealousy of comrades or offering something in excange for information. Torture only hardens the person’s politicla commitment and perception of the interrogating authority.
YES.
NO.
Above all, not a presidential exception. Gives the president way too much power.
I watched Hillary
We wonder why the terrorists hate us and want to destroy America. It’s because we think it’s fine to treat them worse than Michael Vick treats his dogs.
Torture is always wrong, and not even very good for obtaining the truth. There have been people who have confessed to any number of things that they have not done in order to stop being tortured. Torturing someone causes them to tell you what you *want* to hear, not necessarily the truth.
There is such a thing as truth serum right? Not just a Hollywood creation? It would be way more accurate and way more humane.
“No, she was saying “He’s not standing here, I AM!.”
Of course that is how we are supposed to take it, but I’ll bet there is some truth to my interpretation. Hillary is probably very afraid of her husband. She knows better than anyone how much he can hurt women.
Of course that is how we are supposed to take it, but I’ll bet there is some truth to my interpretation. Hillary is probably very afraid of her husband. She knows better than anyone how much he can hurt women.
Posted by: Joe K. at October 7, 2007 9:46 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You are hilarious.
While important questions of integrity are important for those in the most powerful positions, they are important for everyone and at all levels of government.
Many remember the 24 February memo from Bill Weit about having a meeting with Planned Parenthood. What if he had invited local business, community, and church leaders to that meeting? It would have been fair to all involved.
What if the community were to elect someone who would do just that?
Why didn’t they elect such a person?
Something to consider for your next local election.
My inclination would be to ban torture in all circumstances. I think it debases all of us if our government(which is acting in our name) commits torture. That is one of the reasons I am against the death penalty. The government is “for the people,by the people….”, so in essence when a prisoner is executed it is like we are all executing him or her. Of course, I am not charged with protecting the US from terrorists so my perspective is probably different from someone who has that huge responsibility.
“Of course, I am not charged with protecting the US from terrorists”
Torture does not protect us from terrorists. If anything, it creates even more that are pinned on our defeat.
By using torture to extract information from teriorst suspects, a country looses its moral high ground in dealing with the conflict. In essence, it becomes no better than those it would torture.
Additionally, torture is not productive. I’m reminded of a passage I once read in a book advising those sent out on dangerous missions how they could avoid betraying their country under torture. The advice was to lie so much and so well that when the truth eventually did come out, the torturers wouldn’t be able to tell truth from fantasy. Those who are tortured will say anything to stop the pain. They will say anything that they think their interrogators want to hear. To me, that really doesn’t seem like the most effective way to extract useful information.
PIP, good point. My point was that I might think different if I had that responsibility. I agree that torture breeds more terrorists. There will always be persons or groups who hate the US no matter what we do. Where it comes into play is with those persons who are undecided in their opinions of the US.
JKeller said: “We wonder why the terrorists hate us and want to destroy America. It’s because we think it’s fine to treat them worse than Michael Vick treats his dogs.”
That is kind of like the argument that the 9/11 attacks were revenge for Abu Ghraib.
John L,
How exactly does the torture of prisoners help us win over the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people?
I seriously wonder how anti-abortion Catholics can also be pro-death penalty and pro-torture.
It just blows my mind.
Dostoevsky said, “The degree of civilization in a society can be judge by entering its’ prisons.” What type of society do we want to be? Do we really want to be a society that condones or even encourages torture?
It really is kinda weird PiP reading your posts here. I am going to stir up some debate – it is not about what kind of society America will be in the future – but what kind of society she NOW IS. How does a citizen deal with this …. there is a large macho streak in both US and Canada? While many Latin countries tie this to male sexuality, we have tied such to war (fighting, aggressive behavior) and to job (production).
We think torture is only done over-there and not by us-here. Besides accidental death, where is death metered out by we ‘civilized’ folk: death sentence – prisoners; use of depleted uranium; abortion; starvation of peoples we CAN help … but deny them good aid and give them only gmo (genetically modified) foods (also called ‘frankenfoods’) – our insistence; also insist on our sex-ed to receive any funding at all. Do what we say or starve … your only options.
Fear and hysteria
Terrorists killed 4000 since 2000.
Abortion killed 4000 since yesterday.
Sometimes the real danger is within rather than from outside.
Hippie, so true.
“I seriously wonder how anti-abortion Catholics can also be pro-death penalty and pro-torture.
It just blows my mind.”
PIP, read the question again. We KNOW that this guy has information that would lead us to saving thousands of lives. The torture I’m refering to is not Sadaam or Al-Queda like torture where permanant damage is done, by yes, it does include simulated drowning and other techniques alike.
What kind of emotional and spiritual damage is done to the person that tortures someone? I think that kind of damage would be permanent.
John: there is a large macho streak in both US and Canada?
John, certainly less in Canada IMO. And, my opinion again – Bush has done quite a bit to hurt the US in the perception of most of the rest of the world.
What is the deal with depleted uranium?
Doug
“What kind of emotional and spiritual damage is done to the person that tortures someone? I think that kind of damage would be permanent.”
what kind of physical damage would be done to the thousands of people effected by a massive terrorist attack? I think that damage would be permanant too….
“Bush has done quite a bit to hurt the US in the perception of most of the rest of the world.”
Only because of a corrupt, left-wing MSM…..
So its the media’s fault that they just *happen* to have the cameras rolling when he says most of the boneheaded things he says?
*rolls eyes*
John–
I agree that we need to fight injustice everywhere. I was commenting about the situation concerning torture in Iraq.
“We KNOW that this guy has information that would lead us to saving thousands of lives”
I have addressed this. See above.
“yes, it does include simulated drowning and other techniques alike.”
Torture done by us is still torture. It’s still wrong.
“What kind of emotional and spiritual damage is done to the person that tortures someone?”
Actually the people that return from war that were involved in torture situations suffer much more damaging forms of PTSD and other psychological problems than those who do not. Especially since a lot of torture is not always done to guilty parties.
“what kind of physical damage would be done to the thousands of people effected by a massive terrorist attack?”
Exchanging an evil is not right. We can’t forget who we are, we should be a leader and example for universal human rights. When we acquiesce to torture we do harm, not only to our reputation worldwide and Iraqi people, but also to ourselves as human beings.
Remember that saying, that no evil can be done so that something good can be brought from it?
“Only because of a corrupt, left-wing MSM…..”
Haha, blame the media first.
Condoning torture and murder in any form contradicts Catholic and human values. Period.
We shouldn’t let the terrorist change who are. That is giving them too much power. Also, I have yet to hear how torturing someone is a better why to extract accurate info? Like Enigma said, someone being tortured would probably say anything to just get the torture to stop.
@Doug,
re. depleted uranium – a tongue twister to make-believe that the radio activity is somehow manufactured out. It’s not – the same old very deadly stuff, just in the delivery heads of newer weaponry. Nuclear war need not have the big-bang that ended the war with Japan. All that is needed is delivery of very fine uranium powder … and it will kill slowly, painfully and hideously. People can die of cancer in 2 weeks and die from a bullet in 2 seconds – in either scenario they’re dead! When MK returns ask for the link.
The concept of macho IMO may be stronger in the US than here … we have a depreciative aspedct to much of Canadian humor, that seems rtotally lacking in much American humor – at least what I’ve been exposed to.
The ease at which people brag about macho-related-stupidities like: (boasting about sleeping with a huge number of women; or, having a gang-bang with the football team), makes me believe that we’re still not grown-up. And prefer that people do not ‘see’ our own depravity (aka carrie … the damage is not to a them-torturers but to us-torturers, because we now torture whole populations into compliance and we have the nerve to call this democracy).
We call is ‘aid’ … the money we give to poorer nations. We ‘give’ zip …. we loan – with interest. The money is also called tied-aid …. it means that a country can borrow, but they MUST purchase what they need from us … whether or not we have the lowest price …///… also we stipulate how much can be ‘borrowed’ – it is therefore prone to abuse – called graft.
Good point John M. That’s why I am against torture and against the death penalty. When either is done by our government, it is as if we are doing it. The government is us after all.
Good post, John.
John,
you wrote:
We call is ‘aid’ … the money we give to poorer nations. We ‘give’ zip …. we loan – with interest. The money is also called tied-aid …. it means that a country can borrow, but they MUST purchase what they need from us … whether or not we have the lowest price …///… also we stipulate how much can be ‘borrowed’ – it is therefore prone to abuse – called graft.
Posted by: John McDonell at October 8, 2007 11:31 AM
Can you give a link to info about the aid – loan stuff. I would like to know more.
Thanx
sorry hippie,
heard about this in class so many decades ago that I cannot even remember just which class I learned about it. All I can remember was, like me, the fellow classmates were very upset.
However, we did console ourselves that it was the older folks doing this we were too ‘with it’ to allow this for us too. After some time though, all that has changed is perhaps it has gotten worse.
A few years back, Canada’s Prime Minister (Paul Martin) created a short-lived furor by suggesting rich nations (like those in the G-7) ‘forgive’ the debt of very poor nations. Nice sentiment …. but this is business!
[Tell you the truth: I think THE biggest problem was: they didn’t know how to forgive.] Maybe, we’re in the same place with abortion, eh? We are so immersed in ‘fault-finding’ that we stop believing that we are fine with accusing.
PIP: “The CIA’s “Human Resource Exploitation Manual” of 1983 said, “Use of force is a poor technique.” Joe Navarro said that threats “taint information gained from sessions…The only thing that torture guarantees is pain, it never guarantees the truth.”
non-sense…
That’s not what George Tenet said in a recent interview….
Jasper–
Maybe you haven’t noticed that there are a lot of people who don’t approve of lots of things that Tenet has said and done?
“non-sense…”
I”m using common sense as well as sources. And I think I’ve done a decent job demonstrating how torture is such a horrible interrogation technique, even without the whole “human rights” thing in the question.
It’s up to you now. Prove to me that torture A) has proved to be a good way to extract information, especially over the alternatives; and B) is not a blatant violation of Universal Human Rights, not only from the UN and various international communities and statutes, but Catholic and Christian principles (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-12-13-pope_x.htm).
Thirdly, how can one feel that pro-choice is irreconcilable with the Catholic Church but that pro-capital punishment and pro-torture beliefs are? (The Vatican has expressly spoken out against both of these– http://www.cacp.org/vaticandocuments.html)
Jasper–
Maybe you haven’t noticed that there are a lot of people who don’t approve of lots of things that Tenet has said and done?
“non-sense…”
I”m using common sense as well as sources. And I think I’ve done a decent job demonstrating how torture is such a horrible interrogation technique, even without the whole “human rights” thing in the question.
It’s up to you now. Prove to me that torture A) has proved to be a good way to extract information, especially over the alternatives; and B) is not a blatant violation of Universal Human Rights, not only from the UN and various international communities and statutes, but Catholic and Christian principles (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2005-12-13-pope_x.htm).
Thirdly, how can one feel that pro-choice is irreconcilable with the Catholic Church but that pro-capital punishment and pro-torture beliefs are? (The Vatican has expressly spoken out against both of these)
http://www.cacp.org/vaticandocuments.html
John, if depleted uranium is that “strong,” I’d be very, very surprised. Even raw uranium isn’t a very big deal.
http://www.wise-uranium.org/utox.html
But, we’ll see – I’ll look for more info. My brother was in both Iraq wars, and he sent me a 30 mm shell from an A-10 “Tank-killer” aircraft. Tell you what, that is one heavy booger. No wonder it has stopping power. Awesome gun in those planes – it’s the size of a Volkswagen bus.
You’re right – the American “macho” is more, in general, than the Canadian. I worked in Canada from 1986 to 1994, and lived there, Nova Scotia, the last four years. Gang-bangs, etc., – I agree with you; not anything to really “brag” about.
Not all the aid we give (as countries) comes with stipulations that they have to buy our products. If that’s true at all, it’s far from commonplace. Yet many countries do balk at the restrictions the doners place. Many African countries, for example, readily take money from the Chinese, because they just hand it out. They don’t try to tell the countries what to do with it.
Doug
A few years back, Canada’s Prime Minister (Paul Martin) created a short-lived furor by suggesting rich nations (like those in the G-7) ‘forgive’ the debt of very poor nations. Nice sentiment …. but this is business!
John, hundreds of billions of Dollars in debt have already been forgiven.
Doug
“Bush has done quite a bit to hurt the US in the perception of most of the rest of the world.”
Only because of a corrupt, left-wing MSM
No, Jasper, because they can see Bush for what he is.
Doug
WATERBOARD THE HELL OUT OF THOSE MURDEROUS BASTARDS!!
Ah, the calming, soothing voice of Zeke.
“Waterboard” – interesting verb.
Doug
“Brave men do not gather by thousands to torture and murder a single individual,so gagged and bound he cannot make even feeble resistance or defense.” Ida B. Wells
“forgiving” an international debt is as tricky as giving money in the first place. Most donors really do wish to help poor people. But in forgiving a debt are we just not helping their rich folk on graft to be in place longer. How much of this kind of relief ever gets to the poor? As well, does the amount forgiven ever enough to help these people to start anew or does it only perpetuate the grinding poverty of some (and our own affluence)?
Interesting question:
How come the torture that is sanctioned in Iraq
Interesting question:
How come the torture that is sanctioned in Iraq would be horrific here in the states? I don’t see how we would reasonably let an interrogation in the states begin with exposure to extreme heat and cold, threats, simulated drowning and beating (many times attributing death to natural causes). Is it just that it is different because they aren’t Americans?
(sorry I messed up on the sending)
PIP,
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID={AF5C06FC-2E52-4508-9C51-5589751B501C}
Nice try jasper,
but this did not answer my question.
Furthermore, how does it not go against the pro-life mantra, that no evil can be done so that good may come from it?
“We sleep soundly in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.”
–Winston Churchill