“U.S. sets record in sexual disease cases”
You knew I’d get to this. From the Associated Press, November 13:
More than 1 million cases of chlamydia were reported in the United States last year – the most ever reported for a sexually transmitted disease, federal health officials said Tuesday.
“A new U.S. record,” said Dr. John M. Douglas Jr. of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
More bad news: Gonorrhea rates are jumping again after hitting a record low, and an increasing number of cases are caused by a “superbug” version resistant to common antibiotics, federal officials said Tuesday.
Syphilis is rising, too. The rate of congenital syphilis – which can deform or kill babies – rose for the first time in 15 years….
Social conservatives attribute the STD epidemic to the sexual revolution, the launch of which can be fairly traced back to free access to The Pill beginning in 1965 with Planned Parenthood’s Griswold vs. Connecticut Supreme Court victory. We say comprehensive sex ed contributes mightily to the problem by teaching kids how to have promiscuous sex.
But I wondered how liberals would handle this article and so checked out the blogs. Alongside making fun of the article and blaming “abstinence teaching,” “Xtians,” “Dumbya,” and “backwards thinking,” yadda yadda, came interesting thoughts, I remind you, from liberals. These comments come from the Dvorak Uncensored blog re: the aforelinked article:
By Libertican:
Without defending christians, is this the only correlation that you guys can come up with? STD’s are up, blame the uber-political ‘sex is naughty’ crowd. I may be wrong, but I don’t think STD increases can be blamed on the promiscuous bible thumper’s daughter. Condoms are falling from the sky in most urban centers and how to wrap a cucumber instructions were pre-internet memes. Do the numbers correlate with the increase of online porn and the condomless co-stars? Do the numbers correlate with increased immigration? Do the numbers correlate with other non-buzzword viruses?
By Awake:
STD’s are spreading because we have made them stronger.
Most STD’s are bacterial, and respond to antibiotics. But the overuse of antibiotics has hardened the STDs, making them more likely to persist even if they are treated. Since STD are generally an invisible disease, and highly contagious, either they do not get treated or they don’t clear up all the way anymore.
And lack of fear is a big factor also. We were terrified of catching this kind of disease when we were young, but now everyone just assumes that if they do catch something, they can get it treated. So they don’t take precautions, they catch it, don’t know they have it, and eventually pass it on. Women on the pill have little incentive to use condoms. Men are just too horny to care at the critical time, and they know that birth control is the woman’s job, be it through ovulation control, day after pills or abortion.
So in summary, increased drug resistance combined with lack of fear leads to an epidemic.
By KevinL:
Come on John, you posted this, at least read the link. The big increase was in syphillis from gayboy sex, others declined or were statisistically negligable. My brother is a health teacher in a junior high and even he thinks the sex ed program is out of wack. He’s not allowed to deviate from the script and it is heavily slanted to the “here’s how to put on a condom when you have sex cause we know you’s gonna do it and soon… and here’s why anal sex it a-okay”. The fact the sex ed programs are heavily financed by planned parenthood doesn’t scare you? They have quite a vested interest to unwanted pregnancies and know the odds of any punk kids getting the condom on right. They just play the odds and it’s a win-win. Just remember, if you are not having sex, it’s very difficult to get an STD. At least acknowledge that instead of pretending all kids have sex all the time. Some don’t becasue they actually don’t want to risk getting an STD or getting pregnant. imagine that, kids who actually can think?…
If you link back to the 2006 STD trend report, the only increase is in Syphilis in men who have sex with other men. Others continued to decline or had small increases in minority groups. The trends are not keyed to specific ages either so this story is meaningless since it has nothing to do with sex-ed in public schools. Another dumb posting…
By Phillep:
[A]ny bets the increases are among the protected minorities, and not the Jesus Freaks?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
How do you explain the fact that many Western European countries have much lower rates of adolescent pregnancy and STDs than the U.S.? They have in place many of the policies that you oppose, such as comprehensive sex ed, encouragement of contraception, and low stigma on sex outside of marriage.
The U.S. has a sick attitude toward sexuality. On the one hand, it’s a commodity that we use to sell everything, and everybody should be having it. On the other, it’s something nobody should be having except within the confines of (heterosexual) marriage. Where’s the support for people who are trying to figure out how to practice their sexuality freely but responsibly?
Where’s the support for people who are trying to figure out how to practice their sexuality freely but responsibly?
How do you explain the fact that many Western European countries have much lower rates of adolescent pregnancy and STDs than the U.S.?
Posted by: Jen R at November 15, 2007 4:04 PM
Support for those “trying to figure it out”? Please..for the love of decreasing STD’s….figure it out already!
How many sex-ed organizations are corrupted by PP in the Western European countries?
How many sex-ed organizations are corrupted by PP in the Western European countries?
Posted by: AB Laura at November 15, 2007 4:09 PM
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Corrupted?
Yes, corrupted…(can also mean tainted, tarnished, ruined, degraded, etc.) I really HATE PP, Laura…don’t get me started!!!
Yes, they don’t have PP. That’s because they don’t have to worry about the religiosity of the government preventing people from having access to reliable and realistic sex ed.
“Realistic sex ed” LMAO, Erin!
Many are under the impression that prior to Griswold, contraceptives were not available. But there wasn’t a blanket ban on contraceptives prior to this ruling, and contraceptives were accessible in many states.
Prior to the Pill, condoms were ?king? – in the 1950s, the condom trade was valued at $100 million. It wasn’t a secret where they could be purchased, and many high school students were confident that they could access them if necessary.
Based upon out-of-wedlock conceptions and births, it is safe to say that the revolution was underway in the 1950s. The news of the pill?s development in 1956 probably helped to spur attitudinal changes regarding premarital sex, and is reflected in surveys regarding the acceptance of premarital sex.
In 1957, the pill became available for use in controlling menstrual disorders, and far more women who were thought to be suffering from them were on the pill. It wasn?t a secret that the pill could prevent ovulation?
Coincidentally, the total fertility rate, which is the total number of children a woman would expect to have in a lifetime, started to decline towards the late 50s. Though there are many reasons why this rate declined, the use of the pill may have been a contributing factor. If nothing else, it certainly kept this rate down?
Some ascribe the increase in Gonorrhea to the advent of the pill, while others argue that better health care and diagnosis were the reasons for the increase. Regardless, why do we still have STDs in this day and age, and why did the US set a new record for Chlamydia infections, especially with ?condoms falling from the sky??
Given the high level of sexual activity in our culture, it?s safe to say that comprehensive sexuality education programs aren?t going to solve this problem, and neither are condoms.
Ruben,
It’s those darned toilet seats!!! People, squat..don’t sit!!!
Ruben,
Thanks for the education. Can’t wait for you to release your in-depth study… :)
They have in place many of the policies that you oppose, such as comprehensive sex ed, encouragement of contraception, and low stigma on sex outside of marriage.
People that reserve sex inside of marriage are not going to get an STD. It are only those people thumbing their nose at the stigma and having non-monogamous sex anyway that are going to get STDs.
So tell me, how is changing the stigma on self-whoring going to lower STD rates?
The U.S. has a sick attitude toward sexuality.
It’s only sex outside it’s intended context that makes a person sick. A faithful married couple won’t get sick. My reserving sex for marriage hasn’t gotten me sick.
Yes, they don’t have PP. That’s because they don’t have to worry about the religiosity of the government preventing people from having access to reliable and realistic sex ed.
Sex Ed:
Lesson 1: Sex causes Babies.
Lesson 2: Sex with people who have had sex with other people who have had sex with other people who have had sex with other people who and so on MIGHT MAKE YOU SICK.
If you don’t want babies, don’t make them. If you don’t want to get sick, save sex for someone saving sex for you.
that’s what you think.
while everyone on both the PC and PL sides bitch at one another about increased STD’s not one even remotely suggest that the majority of increase in these diseases is directly attributed to a failing immune biological system and a decline in general human health = a decline in soil health. Yap all you want, but junk ‘food’ = junk health = junk and stupid thinking. Instead of the word ‘junk’ replace it with ‘dead’ and you’ll understand that there are aisles upon aisles of bs stocking shelves in our grocery stores and being eaten at every meal. (THE worst offenders are not sleazy diners, but hospitals.)
You knew I’d get to this.
Ha!
Jill, I saw “More than 1 million cases of chlamydia” last night, and thought of you.
Jill, well it’s more of an article / paper than a “study”, but nevertheless I think I can’t wait to finish it – it required way way way more work than I anticipated.. :-)
Actually, John, I beleive whole-heartedly that there are plagues put on this earth by God because of our disobedience to Him. STD’s, in my opinion, are one of the many.
So tell me, how is changing the stigma on self-whoring going to lower STD rates?
:: laughing ::
Oh Jacqueline, you’re such a shrinking violet about this stuff.
Doug
Don’t forget this bit:
CDC officials say the chlamydia record may not be all bad news: They think the higher number is largely a result of better and more intensive screening.
And this:
In 2004, the nation’s gonorrhea rate fell to 112.4 cases per 100,000 people in 2004, the lowest level since the government started tracking cases in 1941.
But since then, health officials have seen two consecutive years of increases. The 2006 rate – about 121 per 100,000 – represents a 5.5 percent increase from 2005.
So Chlamydia is “up” due to better screening, and Gonorrhea has gone up, but certainly not the highest it’s ever been. Not particularly shocking news, really.
while everyone on both the PC and PL sides bitch at one another about increased STD’s not one even remotely suggest that the majority of increase in these diseases is directly attributed to a failing immune biological system and a decline in general human health = a decline in soil health. Yap all you want, but junk ‘food’ = junk health = junk and stupid thinking. Instead of the word ‘junk’ replace it with ‘dead’ and you’ll understand that there are aisles upon aisles of bs stocking shelves in our grocery stores and being eaten at every meal. (THE worst offenders are not sleazy diners, but hospitals.)
Posted by: John McDonell at November 15, 2007 5:04 PM
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Are you interested in sustainable agriculture John? Community supported ag?
You knew I’d get to this.
Ha!
Jill, I saw “More than 1 million cases of chlamydia” last night, and thought of you.
Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2007 5:09 PM
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In a naughty mood Doug?
Yap all you want, but junk ‘food’ = junk health = junk and stupid thinking. Instead of the word ‘junk’ replace it with ‘dead’ and you’ll understand that there are aisles upon aisles of bs stocking shelves in our grocery stores and being eaten at every meal.
John, Dude, you sound fired up about this.
I agree to a point – most I’d say is that I question how much our thinking is really affected by it. You’re certainly right about aisle upon aisle of junk; I shudder to think.
I read an analysis of nutrition and our tendencies once, saying that a good question to ask about food is, “When did it grow?” Basically, the more recent the better.
And then we have all those aisles of mega-processed, chemically-altered, chemical-laced, super-refined carbohydrate, sugar-added, diabetes-inducing, overly-salted (the ancient Egyptians used salt for embalming) stored for months or years “foods” if you can call them that….
Does that sound like George Carlin?
Doug
In a naughty mood Doug?
Sally, I have to laugh – I wondered if it would be taken that way.
No, I didn’t mean that an STD “made me think of Jill,” but rather that seeing the news about the number of cases would prompt a response from her.
Doug of the non-double-entendre this time.
In a naughty mood Doug?
Sally, I have to laugh – I wondered if it would be taken that way.
No, I didn’t mean that an STD “made me think of Jill,” but rather that seeing the news about the number of cases would prompt a response from her.
Doug of the non-double-entendre this time.
Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2007 5:32 PM
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I couldn’t help myself. It was too easy.
AB Laura: I believe whole-heartedly that there are plagues put on this earth by God because of our disobedience to Him.
So that’s why so many people drive slow in the fast lane.
Yes, Doug…I consider them “pavement plagues” :)
save sex for someone saving sex for you.
Welcome to Alliteration Alley, with your host, Jacqueline!
So tell me, how is changing the stigma on self-whoring going to lower STD rates?
Your charming choice of words aside…
If there is a stigma on sex outside of marriage, it might keep some people from having sex. However, it won’t keep a lot of people from having sex, especially people who don’t share the religious belief on which the stigma is based, and for whom it is therefore an entirely artificial, externally-imposed constraint. (An internal locus of control is more effective than an external one.) But if we’re pretending that sex is only ever supposed to occur inside of marriage, then there is a lot less ability to talk openly and honestly about protection from disease.
What we need is a societal expectation that whatever sex people have will be responsible. That’s a lot more likely to happen than a societal expectation that they just won’t have sex unless they’re (straight and) married. That has *never* been the case, not even close, even in times when the stigma against unmarried sex was much stronger than it is now.
AB Laura: Yes, Doug…I consider them (slow drivers in the fast lane) “pavement plagues” :)
So….. these really are “The End Times,” then….
Doug, ABSOLUTELY!!!!
Jen R – Hoo Aah! Well said, indeed.
We need to go with what really works in a real-world atmosphere, not stuff that goes against human nature.
Doug
I do think it’s a good point that having Planned Parenthood providing sex ed is a problem, though. This service should be provided by people who, at a bare minimum, believe that abortion is something to be avoided.
That’s one of many reasons I think we need more pro-life, pro-contraception, pro-sex-ed groups in the U.S.
I saw “More than 1 million cases of chlamydia” last night, and thought of you.
Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2007 5:09 PM
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Worst Hallmark card EVER…
Jen R,
VERY well said :)
I do think it’s a good point that having Planned Parenthood providing sex ed is a problem, though. This service should be provided by people who, at a bare minimum, believe that abortion is something to be avoided.
That’s one of many reasons I think we need more pro-life, pro-contraception, pro-sex-ed groups in the U.S.
Posted by: Jen R at November 15, 2007 5:44 PM
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You don’t think that PP promoting pregnancy prevention is part and parcial to preventing abortion? Hmmmm, asking self, what’s with all the p’s?
Hey Doug, off topic here, but are you a C.G. by any chance?
I should clarify … I think that PP, or at least most people involved with it, think abortion should be avoided, but *only* insofar as they believe unplanned pregnancy should be avoided. They don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with abortion.
I should clarify … I think that PP, or at least most people involved with it, think abortion should be avoided, but *only* insofar as they believe unplanned pregnancy should be avoided. They don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with abortion.
Posted by: Jen R at November 15, 2007 5:51 PM
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Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy, in this context a medical procedure. Do you think that all medical procedures are ‘wrong’? Just the abortion procedure is ‘wrong’? Or do you find particular reasons for having an abortion procedure to be ‘wrong’?
Hey Doug, off topic here, but are you a C.G. by any chance?
AB Laura, I’m a crazy guy but I don’t think that’s what you meant.
Doug,
Not a bad thing….I wish I were!
Knowing the researchers, they will come up with vaccines for all this stuff anyhow…
Blah.. Blah..Blah..
Sally, is execution by lethal injection a “medical procedure”? It’s done by a doctor, with medical instruments.
Sally, is execution by lethal injection a “medical procedure”? It’s done by a doctor, with medical instruments.
Posted by: Jen R at November 15, 2007 6:30 PM
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Of course.
Moral of the story: When you have steak at home, you don’t have to sneak out for hamburger. Tainted hamburger, at that.
Sally: then you must be aware that simply calling something a medical procedure does not place it beyond criticism, or even opposition.
Sally: then you must be aware that simply calling something a medical procedure does not place it beyond criticism, or even opposition.
Posted by: Jen R at November 15, 2007 6:45 PM
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So it isn’t the abortion that you object to but rather the circumstances for the abortion?
AB Laura, then what does “C.G.” mean?
Doug (in the endless search for knowledge)
jen R.: I should clarify … I think that PP, or at least most people involved with it, think abortion should be avoided, but *only* insofar as they believe unplanned pregnancy should be avoided. They don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with abortion.
Jen, you’re a great poster – I hope you stick around.
Agreed that in a vacuum abortion is not “desired.” It is really only in comparison to continuing an unwanted pregnancy that it starts looking good to some people.
There’s nothing intrinsically “wrong,” in the first place – there has to be a mind to make valuations one way or another or there’d be no such thing.
I think pregnancy prevention is much preferable to most people faced with an unwanted pregnancy, but at that point it’s just too late for prevention.
Doug
“The Sanity Inspector”: Moral of the story: When you have steak at home, you don’t have to sneak out for hamburger. Tainted hamburger, at that.
Ya never know what’s gonna happen. I chanced to be in a Comfort Inn tonight in Mobile, AL, and they have a “Happy Hour” where you get free beer for two hours. Never saw the like of it in a Comfort Inn before.
Didn’t even go the full two hours but now I gotta walk up to McDonald’s.
I guess I’m sinning pretty heavy tonight. John M, please disregard this post. ; )
@Doug,
I am a bit fed-up with Western press re. AIDS in Africa. The main reason it goes on and on is because these people are STARVING … they have few nutrients; no energy; and no immune system to fight any bug!
Are we repeating the same thing right here? Yes … but instead of starving and skinny; we are starving and fat. We eat only what we crave … and too little of what we need.
John,
I totally agree with you re: food, chemicals, etc. I have no idea what to eat anymore..I tend to go with processed foods, because I feel that pesticides and growth hormones are probably processed out by the time it’s time to eat it. Chemicals, on the other hand, arn’t good either. I look at a salad these days & wonder what I’m going to get from eating it…I don’t eat much meat, either. Like I said, alot of processed foods.
Anyway, your argument is a good one, but if one doesn’t have sex, the chances of getting an STD are slim to none…If one is skinny or fat, it does not increase the chance of AIDS..there’s only very few ways to get it! (unless, of course, one is going to a doctor’s office that doesn’t sterilize it’s equipment properly…like, say for instance, an office that has ALOT of traffic, and wants to rush people in & out to make the buck instead of taking the time to sanitize….Hypothetical, of course!
John,
A couple of years ago when I was camping in my favorite spot in Indiana, we were driving down what we had dubbed “deer road” (Oh look, I’m getting in on the alliteration game too…). We called it this because the deer (wild deer, mind you) would come right up to the car to eat. We started out feeding them cheerios but then I felt bad and went and bought some feed corn. A local stopped us one time and told me that even tho I believed I was being nice to the deer, I was actually killing them. Not only weren’t they afraid of cars anymore, and as a result were getting hit left and right, but they were dropping like flies from malnutrition. He said not a week went by that they didn’t find another one dead and all because good hearted but misguided folk like myself were filling them up with junk.
They were eating like crazy but dying of “Starvation”.
I never fed them again. It’s funny because in this land of plenty, we eat worse than people in far poorer countries. I myself started out today with a chocolate donut, a pepsi and a cigarette. They’ll probably find me on the side of the road someday. I’ll think about what you said. Thanks.
I never had any STDs, but I do have a nasty UTI. I think I got it running. Does anyone know anything to help it besides antibiotics?
Jess,
Try cranberry juice
John,
An interesting study done maybe ten years ago on starving and healthy Africans exposed to malaria noted that the immune response of the starving subjects was twice that of the healthy ones. Follow up studies found that higher levels of blood lipids (fats) actually depressed immune function. There have also been studies showing that very thin people and animals live substantially longer than those of healthy weight. Sorry I don’t have links. I haven’t looked at those studies for a while. If you are into organics sign up for organic bytes emails from the organic consumers website.
that anon was me
Jess,
Yes…cranberry juice…look for the one with the highest real juice content. They also sell Super Concentrated Cranberry supplements in the vitamin isle, and near where they keep the Midol. Down a few with the juice, hold it in as long as you can…then go! You should be fine shortly!
Currently in the US senate is the Fresh Act which would make school lunches healthier. I wish the MSM would tell people this stuff so we would not have to join ten different consumer/political groups just to find out what is going on. Oh, I forgot that would reduce the time available to cover Paris Hilton, and OJ. Keep us distracted and entertained so the powerful can do what they want and we won’t notice till it is too late.
Sorry for the cynicism.
Agreed that in a vacuum abortion is not “desired.”
I hope that dreadful choice of words was unintentional.
Anon,
I too think we should get more news on what is actually going through congress. So much stuff is filler nowadays!
Jess:
Cranberry juice is good, but make sure it doesn’t have a lot of sugar in it. Try drinking water–a LOT, so you can flush out the infection. Also try eating yogurt and other products with “good” bacteria in it. Avoid sugar and caffeine.
Oh, and (as my mother told me) no vigorous sex until a week after it’s gone, at least. :)
Jess, AZO until you can get to the doc. Helps with the burning.
Actually it’s an OTC drug called AZO.
Yah- not too much, though, or too soon before you go, because it’ll mess up the test results. Uristat is amazing- I keep it on hand because I have a massive tendancy towards UTIs.
heather- finally got to reply to your other post :]
ABLaura and Leah,
Thanks for the pointer to Jess on no sugar in the cranberry juice. I should have thought of that.
I saw “More than 1 million cases of chlamydia” last night, and thought of you.
Posted by: Doug at November 15, 2007 5:09 PM
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Worst Hallmark card EVER…
Damn. That made me laugh out loud for real… :)
How much talking is necessary to put on a condom? How much effort does it take to make sure a condom is on your partner? And I’d like to think, two people in a relationship who are HAVING SEX can bring themselves to talk about it. If you look at society, TV, movies- promiscuity isn’t deviant anymore. It’s the norm. I think we need more stigma.
What we need is a societal expectation that whatever sex people have will be responsible.
Depends on your definition of responsiblity. I define responsbility as not exposing your sex organs to a host of diseases and possibly creating children in a dysfunctional environment.
Read the story again and you’ll see that sex is not safe. Condoms don’t protect from everything and prime-time genital herpes drug ads are a testimony to that. You might reduce the risk some diseases and some people as stupid enough to take that risk for some slap and tickle, but I’ll save my slap and tickle for when I have no risk of disease.
Agreed that in a vacuum abortion is not “desired.”
TSI: I hope that dreadful choice of words was unintentional.
Oh man, that one didn’t even occur to me. Yes, unintentional, and to the point of the woman and the fact of the baby being inside of her making a lot of difference.
Doug
I took an AIDS in Literature course awhile ago, where we talked about Africa.
There was a pretty interesting study done in Africa that traced the spread of AIDS. What was weird about it was that a bunch of married women were getting it and passing it on to their children. Married women! Seriously, and how were they getting it?
Well, their husbands, who traveled across the country, slept around, got HIV, passed it on to their faithful wives.
See, in a lot of African countries, women don’t have equal rights. They’re abused and mistreated, on top of malnourishment.
So keep pushing the idea that marriage will save the world from STDs, because obviously that’s working really well.
Do any of you know how many people are unfaithful? It’s not just a matter of getting married and having kids. There are fundamental problems in all matters of family, and until we fix those, we come no closer to preventing the spread of STDs and unwanted pregnancies.
Edyt,
Africa doesn’t have what Americans consider marriage. Here, infidelty is a grave matter. There, men marry many women or continue to have sex with–and rape, rape is rampant, many women. This is why many Christian ministries distribute condoms to married Africans, to protect them from diseases spread by rape and infidelty. The culture is not like ours in regards to marriage being monogamous, not polygamous. That culture is killing them and it needs to change.
It’s not marriage that stops STD’s- it’s monogamy. Even two non-married people who choose only to sleep with eachother are protected from STDs. So it’s abstinence before marriage and marital FIDELITY that stops AIDS completely.
There, men marry many women or continue to have sex with–and rape, rape is rampant, many women.
And sad to say, there is a prevalent belief among many African men that having sex with a virgin will cure HIV or AIDS….
“I saw “More than 1 million cases of chlamydia” last night, and thought of you.”
Laura: Worst Hallmark card EVER…
J: Damn. That made me laugh out loud for real… :)
Jacqueline, stuff like has made me love Laura. I usually just go around arguing but should pay homage to Laura’s sense of humor and all the good stuff from her over the years.
Cheers, Laura!
Doug
Jacqueline, stuff like has made me love Laura. I usually just go around arguing but should pay homage to Laura’s sense of humor and all the good stuff from her over the years.
Cheers, Laura!
Doug
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Right back ‘atcha Mr. Loin.
And sad to say, there is a prevalent belief among many African men that having sex with a virgin will cure HIV or AIDS….
Got a link for this Doug? Not because I’m being smart or anything..but am genuinely interested into where this logic actually comes from.
Elizabeth, a thing about which I think we can all agree is sad:
http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/april/virgin.htm
:vomits:
That is truly tragic and disgusting.
Doug,
According to you, a 5 month old and 9 month old wouldn’t be able to form conscious thought about being raped. So other than the physical, what harm was done to these little girls? I mean, they don’t have any experience to compare it to, and would be unable to make a valuation. There is no way to prove that raping them had any negative mental impact on them. Shouldn’t it be okay to rape children up until say, the age of reason?
MK: According to you, a 5 month old and 9 month old wouldn’t be able to form conscious thought about being raped. So other than the physical, what harm was done to these little girls? I mean, they don’t have any experience to compare it to, and would be unable to make a valuation. There is no way to prove that raping them had any negative mental impact on them. Shouldn’t it be okay to rape children up until say, the age of reason?
Where in the world do you get that, MK? They most certainly can suffer, have emotions, etc. What possible “good” do you see outweighing that?
Doug
Doug, abortion is murder, and abortionists are murderers. It’s simple.
Nope.
yep!
Doug, abortion is murder, and abortionists are murderers. It’s simple.
Posted by: heather at November 17, 2007 12:49 PM
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Then call 911.
I’m sure that the police will respond immediately, and the murderers will be prosecuted and executed.
yep!
Take my love, take my land,
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don’t care, I’m still free,
You can’t take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black,
Tell them I ain’t comin’ back.
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can’t take the sky from me.
Anyway, your argument is a good one, but if one doesn’t have sex, the chances of getting an STD are slim to none…If one is skinny or fat, it does not increase the chance of AIDS..there’s only very few ways to get it! (unless, of course, one is going to a doctor’s office that doesn’t sterilize it’s equipment properly…like, say for instance, an office that has ALOT of traffic, and wants to rush people in & out to make the buck instead of taking the time to sanitize….Hypothetical, of course!
Posted by: AB Laura at November 15, 2007 7:42 PM
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Hi Laura,
guess folks just don’t get it (or pretend they don’t)! When I speak of starvation, we are NOT talking about really hungry people as this word might be used by a North American teen. In Africa it means many people are dying. Hospitals with no supplies are mortuaries… if you’re dead, you no longer can choose anything at all. Choosing what is ‘best’ is a fantasy for someone driven by hunger … sex, I think is a far-removed symbol of prosperity … and not necessarily cultural at all. In many places in Africa, there will be very chubby leaders … another symbol of prosperity. If a male does no ‘have several women, at least, then he is a ‘looser’. AIDS will also make him a looser …. or does it? It would be really interesting to hear how African peoples view abortion or PC.
Hello, John! :)
No…I guess I really don’t get it. I tried really hard, though…
You see, when I was a young one, when my Dad had something to say, it was never brief. It was a lecture and a half! He would use certain words in his lectures that would trigger “do you know what that means? Tell me what that means. You don’t know what that means? Well, go to the bookcase, get the dictionary, look it up and tell me what it means”. Sometimes, John, this would go on for hours. It was pure torture, but I learned to take words at their “dictionary meaning”, or literally. So, what I’m trying to get at here, is that in the way my mind was trained (thanks alot, Dad!), I have a difficult time “reading between the lines”.
Your posts are very interesting to me, and make me think. However, I’m just not following the starvation threads. If you care to explain, I would gladly read & absorb it!
Thanks again!
In many places in Africa, there will be very chubby leaders … another symbol of prosperity. If a male does no ‘have several women, at least, then he is a ‘looser’. AIDS will also make him a looser …. or does it? It would be really interesting to hear how African peoples view abortion or PC.
John, hope I’m not abusing the privilege of posting here – it does seem that there are some really tangential (at best) conversations going on, but I guess this really does relate.
Yeah – chubby leaders and the huge disparity between how they live and how the masses live. Life may be said to be “cheap” what with guns in the streets, the wholesale slaughter of tribe against tribe sometimes, etc., yet I imagine that mothers love their kids just as much in Africa.
I don’t think “our” (mostly European) imperialism worked out well, at all. Somebody else – Midnite, Leah, Erin, or someone else mentioned the book “Things Fall Apart” by Chinua Achebe, 1958. Great to hear from an African, though almost a half century has elapsed.
Doug
@Doug,
can’t find the quote now but when you were backing Sally on what constituted ‘a life’ vs living, I had these thoughts and I’d like you to comment:
Exactly correct –
an aspect of a diamond allows viewing of the whole diamond from one side …. in 3-D universe, the dimension known as ‘depth’ is a bit different than knowing 3 sides (but only the surface of a reality). So when I use the word ‘aspect’ it is in the sense of the diamond analogy.
A LIFE – aspects – ‘oneness’; living; being/existence; HUMAN; value
… in a 3-D mental construct, the human remains through generation (living) called: phases.
However, the aspect of HUMAN is even stronger in a spacetime universe where event and oneness coincide. A HUMAN being always has the full expression of rights (value) like being a birthed person or a zygote or an octogenarian all are one being.
The aspect that has Sally fixated is that of oneness. There are any number of things here … even the very word ‘universe’ begins with ‘uni-‘ meaning ‘one’.
A very small notion encompasses the word equality where HUMAN = HUMAN = HUMAN = HUMAN = etc. Why are some HUMANS afforded HUMAN rights and denied to others? (remember spacetime). This small fragment also embraces the notions of ‘uniqueness’ and ‘individuality’.
It is interesting that so-called religiosity has this ‘oneness’ aspect at its very core. All humans too seem to be more community oriented rather than isolates … family, neighborhoods, associations, groups, party-affiliations, clubs, societies; nations, cultures, languages. All human communication is based on the ‘oneness’ aspect. Bitterness (Sally) soon follows when a person senses isolation or estrangement.
Abortion is murder because it ends this … just don’t know how death/mortality fits into spacetime.
John, I’ve never met anybody like you. There likely are some, but I’ve yet to find ’em. I love your relations of philosophy and spatial aspects.
If Sally seems bitter at times to you, then I submit that many pro-lifers do too. Zeke, yllas, John L, HisMan, etc., and I think that there you would not say it is due to a “lack of perception of greater truths” as you at least imply with Sally. If anything I believe it’s all the same thing – it’s the way we feel about ourselves and others.
Most of us do not want to be isolated, and indeed most of us get bummed out if we feel it. I don’t know if there is any greater conception of rights, as far as “higher” beings than us earthly humans, a god, etc. I do feel I know how rights operate on earth, in the reality that we all can perceive.
I don’t know what all is “out there,” and neither does Sally. I’d also say that neither do you. In the ways that we think of things exists much of ourselves. In you I sense a great yearning for “more.” Perhaps it exists.
Best,
Doug
Hi AB Laura,
I find great pleasure in your posts, with time they’ll be even more formidable!
The concept of judging other cultures as less than your own is fraught with all sorts of problems especially with cultures as diverse as those in Africa comparing these with North America. Too often we compare the AIDS situation in Africa with our AIDS problem here. This occurs on the backdrop of the ‘abstinence-only’ failures in the US. (Very little is ever mentioned of those
worthwhile efforts in a few African nations.) This lack-of-sensitivity has people like Stephan Lewis pushing PP-style (more condoms) at folks who are starving. We too easily forget just how immensely different African sensibilities are from our own.
Hello, John! Happy a.m. to you!
I agree. The AIDS problem in the US and the AIDS problem in Africa are horses of a different color. I agree that condoms will not stop the spread of AIDS in Africa, unless the warped men who think to cure it they need to have sex with a virgin change their beliefs. As I’ve seen here, what a person truly belives is like a mountain that cannot be moved.
It’s not marriage that stops STD’s- it’s monogamy. Even two non-married people who choose only to sleep with eachother are protected from STDs. So it’s abstinence before marriage and marital FIDELITY that stops AIDS completely.
Jacqueline,
I agree with your point that monogamy stops STDs, but I can’t agree with marriage. Even in the U.S., an approximate 22 percent of men have admitted to having at least one affair and 14 percent of women have admitted to having at least one. (Source: The Associated Press)
That’s not even counting how many haven’t admitted to their infidelity.
I’m not an advocate for marriage because in my life, I haven’t witnessed a whole hell of a lot of happy marriages. In fact, some of the most happiest marriages I’ve witnessed have been when at least one or both partners were married for the second time.
I think the key thing we need to keep in mind is that we should be teaching kids about healthy relationships and monogamy within their relationships. Marriage won’t save everyone, but knowing how to have a happy, healthy relationship will. (And again, if healthy relationships and proper care is provided for all children, I’d be pro-life too. But I’m not that idealistic)
Then call 911.
I’m sure that the police will respond immediately, and the murderers will be prosecuted and executed.
Posted by: laura at November 17, 2007 1:46 PM*********************** You need some new material. Abortion is legalized murder.
yep!
Take my love, take my land,
Take me where I cannot stand.
I don’t care, I’m still free,
You can’t take the sky from me.
Take me out to the black,
Tell them I ain’t comin’ back.
Burn the land and boil the sea,
You can’t take the sky from me.
Doug, why did you post this? I don’t get it.
Hi heather,
I do …. it is one of the most beautiful, poignant expressions of freedom that I’ve ever read – thanks Doug!
I like to replace “sky” with “heavens”, or to clarify more, “Heaven” where God is. I believe that this “poem” is in reference to our freedom of being in God’s hands. You can’t take that away from me!
Hi Edyt,
decades ago a philosopher, Jacques Maritan made a distinction between fidelity vs constancy. Guess his words still apply.
@Doug, before I forget … when talking about head hurting spacetime, I wrote that Christian mystic tradition is filled with such stuff … just one example … Mary (Jesus’ Mom) is called ‘the Immaculate Conception by Catholics. The words (although simple) have been a constant source o baffle. Her precise phrase was, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
I have heard of people being named after an event, but I’ve never seen a person claim to be an event.
@John,
And, “on the rock” or “is the rock”.
MK: According to you, a 5 month old and 9 month old wouldn’t be able to form conscious thought about being raped. So other than the physical, what harm was done to these little girls? I mean, they don’t have any experience to compare it to, and would be unable to make a valuation. There is no way to prove that raping them had any negative mental impact on them. Shouldn’t it be okay to rape children up until say, the age of reason?
*
Where in the world do you get that, MK? They most certainly can suffer, have emotions, etc. What possible “good” do you see outweighing that?
*
Doug
A child that young could not form the conscious thought “Hey that hurt me emotionally” because they have nothing to compare it with. They have no way of knowing that having a man get sexual gratification from fondling them or inserting their “parts” into them is morally depraved. From their point of view, it’s just what happens once you are “born”…so what makes it bad. If the 5 month old or 9 month old won’t be hurt “emotionally” by this behavior, why should we stop it?
Doug,
I didn’t say they couldn’t suffer or have emotions. I said that you couldn’t PROVE that being molested would cause these emotions. After all, how is a 9 month old supposed to know that being “touched” down there is not good for them?
Doug, why did you post this? I don’t get it.
Heather, just for the heck of it. There was a great, but short-lived series on TV, “Firefly” and that was part of the theme song.
I believe that this “poem” is in reference to our freedom of being in God’s hands. You can’t take that away from me!
Laura, it’s nothing to do with any gods or heaven, but you can do as you wish there, as far as belief. That’s the beauty of pro-choice.
Johhny M: Mary (Jesus’ Mom) is called ‘the Immaculate Conception by Catholics. The words (although simple) have been a constant source o baffle. Her precise phrase was, “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
I have heard of people being named after an event, but I’ve never seen a person claim to be an event.
Well, if so then she was presumably the one doing it – close enough for gov’t work?
Reminds me of the miserable Pittsburgh Steelers and Franco Harris – the “Immaculate Reception” way back when, to help beat the Oakland Raiders.
You have to understand that this was a grave miscarriange of justice, that Pittsburgh then arose to win 4 Super Bowls (5 now), ending four decades of righteousness when they were the doormat of the league.
Next month will mark 35 years since the horrible event, but the horror and disrespectability of it still looms large.
Doug
MK: I didn’t say they couldn’t suffer or have emotions. I said that you couldn’t PROVE that being molested would cause these emotions. After all, how is a 9 month old supposed to know that being “touched” down there is not good for them?
I don’t think I have to prove it.
You didn’t just say “touched.”
You said “a 5 month old and 9 month old wouldn’t be able to form conscious thought about being raped.”
That’s not “according to me.” That’s according to you, if anybody. Rape a 5 month old or a 9 month old – your concept and your examples – and I don’t think I have to prove they will hurt and have emotions about it.
Doug
John, I’m interested in hearing more about Maritan if you’re willing to indulge me.
Hi Edyt,
boy, is this ever taking me back – +35 yrs. We were studying a ‘hot’ philosophy called phenomenology. Maritan was one of its exponents. The book that we studied placed all the greatest assets of married love under fidelity …. it is kind of an encompassing change … so that you and your spouse are so much one being, that no matter where you are, your spouse is there too.
Constancy saw the couple as individual, separate beings. All ethical functioning toward your spouse was based on an honor system. In a sense because it is about duty rather than love, it will have more failure.
I believe that this “poem” is in reference to our freedom of being in God’s hands. You can’t take that away from me!
Laura, it’s nothing to do with any gods or heaven, but you can do as you wish there, as far as belief. That’s the beauty of pro-choice.
Posted by: Doug at November 18, 2007 7:37 PM
While there may be beauty in religious tolerance for the sake of peace instead of violence, there is no beauty in supporting someone’s choice to kill a child.
All humans are created equal, but all choices are not.
Doug,
I’m not being a trouble maker here…
But think about this.
If you can kill an unviable fetus, because according to you it is not able to be aware of what harm is coming to it, and the person causing the harm does not value the life, then why can’t a man/woman get sexual gratification from fondling a 5 month old. By the same reasoning you use, it should be okay.
The five month old would be unaware that harm was being done to it, and the person causing the harm considers the child to be valueless (except to satisfy their own needs)…
You say we need to prove that an unviable fetus can feel pain or be aware of what is being done to it, in order to call the action of abortion morally wrong.
I’m saying, can YOU prove that a 5 month old is being emotionally harmed if it is sexually molested without being physically hurt? Is it morally wrong?
I’m working with YOUR logic here, not mine. Remember, my belief that it is wrong to abort does not rest with viability or sentience. Yours does.
Do not the same rules apply to something like the molestation of a child that is too young to understand what is being done to him? Does it’s wrongness not depend upon the ability of the child to perceive it as wrong?
Doug,
You didn’t just say “touched.”
I’m saying it now.
Constancy saw the couple as individual, separate beings. All ethical functioning toward your spouse was based on an honor system. In a sense because it is about duty rather than love, it will have more failure.
John, my opinion – they are almost always deeply related. Without love there will almost always be a lesser feeling of duty or perhaps none at all. Two people who are married or otherwise a couple are separate individuals, yes, but isn’t it a truism that they are a couple in the first place because they want the other person and want the relationship?
“Greatest assets of married love under fidelity” – I agree with that. If the honor system isn’t working, then both people are not on the same page. I think it’s because communication between them has broken down along the way, or was never good enough to start with.
Don’t know that it *has* to be that way, but for me personally it is, and I feel that our culture conditions us towards that, as different from polygamous cultures or societies where “marriage” is not the same thing.
So, for whatever the case, and for better or worse, it really does matter to me to be married and for my wife and me to be faithful to each other. By the way we feel, it’s better and it has to be to be in line with what we want the most.
There is trust between us, and to a large extent we are “with each other” even if physically separated, due to the way we think of the relationship, ourselves, and each other.
I certainly realize there are parallels here with many people’s religious feelings too.
Doug
Good morning, MK. I know you’re not being a troublemaker, no worries on that score.
The fetus (or you can say unborn baby – that’s fine with me) is inside the pregnant woman. That’s not so for the person who wants to fondle the 5 month old baby. That, alone, makes a heck of a difference to me.
You say we need to prove that an unviable fetus can feel pain or be aware of what is being done to it, in order to call the action of abortion morally wrong. I’m saying, can YOU prove that a 5 month old is being emotionally harmed if it is sexually molested without being physically hurt? Is it morally wrong?
No, I really don’t say you need to prove anything to call it wrong. You have your feelings – that’s not arguable. I realize you feel abortion is wrong, and I don’t think you are “bad” for feeling that way nor that you have to prove anything at all to me. I see the question being whether such feelings should have legal force with respect to pregnant women.
I get what you mean about the 5 month old not being harmed if there’s no hurt/no suffering. But I don’t think the desire of the person who wants to fondle the baby should trump the desire of the parents of the baby. Nor do I think that desire should overrule society’s position on it – what “good” can the fondler present to counter that? There’s certainly nothing like ending an unwanted pregnancy involved.
……
I’m working with YOUR logic here, not mine. Remember, my belief that it is wrong to abort does not rest with viability or sentience. Yours does.
Well, that is only part of it. I do consider viability to matter, since then abortion isn’t the only option, i.e. the woman can have the pregnancy ended without it. And with sentience my personal feeling is that the baby is becoming a person. The difference between the baby being inside the body of a person or not remains profound to me, however.
……
Do not the same rules apply to something like the molestation of a child that is too young to understand what is being done to him? Does it’s wrongness not depend upon the ability of the child to perceive it as wrong?
No, because the feeling of “wrong” may have nothing to do with that. Purely by itself, the 5 month old baby may not be harmed at all, and it’s not changed by anything there. Perhaps the parents would even agree with that, yet they almost surely would still not want to baby to be fondled, for whatever reasons. It’s not a question of the baby’s feelings here, it’s those of the parents against the fondler.
Doug
Doug,
What if the fondler is the parents?
It’s not a question of the baby’s feelings here, it’s those of the parents against the fondler.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at November 19, 2007 8:17 AM
Doug,
What if the fondler is the parents?
Posted by: mk at November 19, 2007 8:29 AM
**********************************
Touche!
Hi Doug,
glad you remarked on the fidelity post. The concept behind phenomenology is itself interesting because these people did think classical concepts of verifiable by standard logic meant they did not intellectually ‘explore’ many realities. The easiest to think of is ‘home’ …. a reduction would be to ‘house’. Not the same at all. (Perhaps there is an equivalency here: MK talks ‘child’ and the reduction term is ‘fetus’.
There is a way to think of marriage in yet another way. Many say marriage should be 50:50, but is in reality 70:30. IMO these are wrong because the view is: marriage = addition (children are add-ons). If instead marriage is perceived as a multiplication, then .5X.5 = .25 marriage and .7X.3 = .21 marriage contrasted with a total/100% commitment 1.0X1.0 = 1.0 marriage ( X 1 child = 1 family …. x 1 more child = 1 larger family; etc …).
John,
I often say to my kids that this is their home and always will be. But it’s my HOUSE and they’ll do what I say or take a hike!
There still here…
MK: What if the fondler is the parents?
Then what I said above, applies:
“Nor do I think that desire should overrule society’s position on it”
There is a way to think of marriage in yet another way. Many say marriage should be 50:50, but is in reality 70:30. IMO these are wrong because the view is: marriage = addition (children are add-ons). If instead marriage is perceived as a multiplication, then .5X.5 = .25 marriage and .7X.3 = .21 marriage contrasted with a total/100% commitment 1.0X1.0 = 1.0 marriage ( X 1 child = 1 family …. x 1 more child = 1 larger family; etc …).
John, I am subject to random drug tests at work, but sometimes I am tempted….