Long weekend question
Families Against Planned Parenthood in Denver plans to picket the home of a company executive helping construct PP’s new abortion mill on Christmas morning.
I think this is a proper and commendable idea.
Do you agree or disagree? Why or why not?
I disagree with it – it’s messing with the privacy of their family too much.
Doug
I’m not comfortable with this plan. Protest at the work site where the building is going up or at the company’s headquarters – great! But picketing at someone’s home during Christmas will likely enflame the rhetoric of how those in prolife work are disrespectful of privacy and such.
I think it will definately send a message! I would agree with it if it were the only home on the block, but there are other neighbors on that block that are innocent here!
To me, abortion is the apitomy of death, destruction and despair.
Christmas, to me, is the apitomy of life, hope and happiness.
Mixing the two on a day that should only celebrate life, hope and happiness, to me at least, is uncalled for.
I think the protestors can find a way on Christmas morning to show love to the contractor, which, to me, would have more of an effect on him, his family & many surrounding neighbors.
I agree with it, only picketing at the work site makes things too comfortable for the people building it and it won’t get the people to stop.
I completely disagree (which I’m sure isn’t much of a surprise. Christmas is a time to celebrate love and, among Christians, to rejoice Jesus’ birth (even if the date is off the mark). Using the Son’s birth celebration to protest at a person’s home (who is likely celebrating the holiday with his family) is uncalled for and completely defies the idea of peace, which has been incorporated into Christmas. It is an unspoken truce, or so it would seem. Using that day to protest someone doing their job because you dont like their client is ridiculous.
Christmas, to me, is the apitomy of life, hope and happiness.
Mixing the two on a day that should only celebrate life, hope and happiness, to me at least, is uncalled for.
I think the protestors can find a way on Christmas morning to show love to the contractor, which, to me, would have more of an effect on him, his family & many surrounding neighbors.
Posted by: AB Laura at December 23, 2007 12:56 PM
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I completely agree with AB Laura.
(Isn’t that one of the signs of the apocalypse?)
It is an unspoken truce, or so it would seem. Using that day to protest someone doing their job because you dont like their client is ridiculous.
Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2007 1:11 PM
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Yesterday Tim Russert was talking about German and American troops celebrating Christmas together during World War II.
They exchanged chocolate and smokes, and next morning picked up the war where they had left it the day before.
(That story made me choke up…)
AB Laura: I think the protestors can find a way on Christmas morning to show love to the contractor, which, to me, would have more of an effect on him, his family & many surrounding neighbors.
Nicely said, Laura. There are going to be many opinions about this, from one end of the spectrum to the other.
I also think it was nice of you to say it.
A big hug to you today.
Doug
It’s a Christmas miracle!!!
Doug, Laura….Merry Christmas!
Well, let’s see: it won’t save any babies, won’t help anyone, and will probably be seen by dozens of families with children visiting relatives in the neighborhood, which will only make FAPP look like bigger assholes than ever. Maybe the local news will do a story on it, then the whole city can cringe with disgust at the deranged anti-choice movement. All in all, sounds like a great idea, to me!
Jill,
Just out of pure curiousity, why do you believe that it is a proper and commendable idea?
I am pro-life all year, I don’t take holidays off. Sounds like a great way to show love to the unborn as well as remind contractors their efforts will prevent some from experiencing the joy of Christmas. Great idea.
I disagree with it, mostly because I think on this day, we should be concerned with spending time with our family and appreciating what we have been given. Everybody deserves a day off I think…and this should be it for the Denver FAPP as well as for the company executive. Spend time loving your family and taking joy in all the gifts you have been given in every way. There’s always the 26th! ;)
It’s a bad idea. Not because he doesn’t deserve to be protested. I personally don’t care if this fellow’s Christmas is ruined by protesters. As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is “pro-choice” should never have a Merry Christmas, or any “Happy Holiday”.
BUT… that is exactly how the story would be presented by the media, if it is covered at all. It would be those evil, evil pro-lifers stealing Christmas away from poor widdle kids and their family. So regardless of the intent, it’s a bad idea.
John said, “As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is “pro-choice” should never have a Merry Christmas, or any “Happy Holiday”.
——-
John, that’s just rude!
Christmas was a gift to all…even pro-choicers.
Pro-choicers…I wish each and every one of you a Merry Christmas & I hope you have many happy holidays!
Perhaps people could spend an hour of Christmas in private prayer for this man? After all, it is God who converts hearts.
Elizabeth,
Amen to that!
It sounds like man’s strategy dressed in clerical garb …. much more prayer seems needed. What is the purpose of this picket: to convert or to embarrass? Hope they pray about this.
It is a bad idea.
I have always disagreed with protesting at someone’s home.
Even more so on Christmas.
As everyone else has stated, Christmas should be a time of peace and joy, not ruining a whole neighborhood’s day.
It is a fact that little children will be witness to those god awful signs y’all hold. And as I’ve said before on here, a child who is young (& still innocent) does not know about abortions, nor should they be exposed to those graphic (& sometimes developmentaly wrong) pictures. Children should never be used or harmed by a politially charged issue.
For all you know the contractor, his family or his neighbors could be PL. Not to mention, y’all would be infringing on their privacy in rheir lawn with the protest.
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John:
Saying, “As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is “pro-choice” should never have a Merry Christmas, or any “Happy Holiday”.
Way to show your true colors buddy! That is the Christian spirit right there man!
I thought Christians practiced forgiveness, peace and joy. I guess your not too good at your faith/religion.
Not to mention, that is just a horrid thing to say to people.
Laura,
It is an unspoken truce, or so it would seem. Using that day to protest someone doing their job because you dont like their client is ridiculous.
Posted by: Dan at December 23, 2007 1:11 PM
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*
Yesterday Tim Russert was talking about German and American troops celebrating Christmas together during World War II.
They exchanged chocolate and smokes, and next morning picked up the war where they had left it the day before.
(That story made me choke up…)
Posted by: Laura at December 23, 2007 1:27 PM
This is one of the reasons why I love you…
I was going to post this exact thing. I recently read the story also (I believe they played soccer).
It started when the German side started singing a Christmas song in German, and the American soldiers recognized the tune. They joined in in English. It actually lasted for a couple of days.
I’d rather have the pro-lifers drop off dozens of cookies and then sing Christmas Carols. Or shovel their walk, or order them pizza. This is a time to show love and mercy. Plenty of time for protesting. Seems like some Random Acts of Kindness in His name would do more for everyone’s souls…
British-German Truce
The truce began on Christmas Eve, December 24, 1914, when German troops began decorating the area around their trenches in the region of Ypres, Belgium, for Christmas. They began by placing candles on trees, then continued the celebration by singing Christmas carols, most notably Stille Nacht (Silent Night). The British troops in the trenches across from them responded by singing English carols.
The two sides continued by shouting Christmas greetings to each other. Soon thereafter, there were calls for visits across the “No Man’s Land” where small gifts were exchanged
This was in our Parish bulletin today…Doug, it especially made me think of you for some reason…
During the Christmas rush two business executives were standing on Fifth Avenue at 57th street in downtown Manhattan waiting to cross. Even the pedestrian traffic on the side walk was a mess. “I hate this time of year”, one of the executives said. “This is ridiculous. You can’t even walk to where you have to go! This city is a nightmare at Christmas. Something needs to be done about this!” But the other man was a bit more philosophical. “You know, it’s astounding, the romance of it. There was a baby born of peasant parents in a little out of the way place half way around the world. The parents had no money or social standing, yet two thousand years later that child creates a traffic jam on Fifth Avenue, one of the most sophisticated streets in the biggest city on earth. This irritates you? It should fascinate you!”
Merry Christmas Everyone!
Here’s to the Babe that was born.
Here’s to us all!
This is a time to show love and mercy. Plenty of time for protesting. Seems like some Random Acts of Kindness in His name would do more for everyone’s souls…
MK, a great big hug for you too.
Doug
Right back atchya Dougster.
I agree with AB Laura and mk. And i know the pro-lifers would bring their little children out in the cold on Christmas day to protest. I mean even though I don’t agree with all of my families beliefs but at least I try and be happy and agreeable on Christmas.
Can’t we all just have a merry Christmas? Everyone?
Ok not agreeable but affectionate, yeah that was the word I was looking for.
Snorggles all around!
John,
John said, “As far as I’m concerned, anyone who is “pro-choice” should never have a Merry Christmas, or any “Happy Holiday”.
I think those are the very people that should be blessed most on Christmas. I prayed at church today that every single pro choicer on this site would receive a small Christmas miracle and one ray of His light…just a peek…at His goodness and the wonder of it all.
We must, must, must make room at the inn for all of our wayward travelers.
It would be completely inappropriate. Christmas is a time to be with family and celebrate life, spirituality, and intimacy. Interfering with someone’s time of celebration is extremely rude.
Christmas is the time to pray for the unborn and for the people involved, it is not a time for harassment.
Went to Mass with my dad today, MK. :P
*hug*
Have a great Christmas, all.
Demonstrating in front of this man’s house on Christmas is exactly like Westboro Baptist Church members demonstrating at the funerals of fallen soldiers.
There is a time and place for everyone to promote your agenda, and this ain’t it.
Hmmm
oh right on, MK.
Ditto MK…
Whatever happened to “do unto others….”?
I most certainly would not like PC’ers picketing with their “my body, my choice” signs in front of my house on Christmas day!
PETA says, YOUR CHRISTMAS HAM IS MURDER!
*holds up picture of Babe*
Hm, where do you live?
“I most certainly would not like PC’ers picketing with their “my body, my choice” signs in front of my house on Christmas day!”
Ahhhh, but AB Laura….think of the opportunity to witness!!
I am not comfortable with picketing someone’s home….anytime. If I could be convinced it actually changes hearts, then maybe I could change my mind, but I personally think it is ineffective and bad p.r. for the pro-life side. Especially on Christmas, I think it would do more p.r. damage than do any good.
A terrible idea for all the reasons mentioned above that will only serve to enforce the idea in peoples’ minds that pro-lifers are hateful and crazy. :(
“PETA says, YOUR CHRISTMAS HAM IS MURDER!
*holds up picture of Babe*”
Merry Christmas to PETA:
Bee Fish Ewe A Mare Egret Moose Panda Hippo Gnu Deer!
mk said: “I think those are the very people that should be blessed most on Christmas.”
I agree. They should be blessed. Blessed in the sense of having whatever demons are manipulating them driven out forever. Not once has a single one of the pro-aborts ever given a reasonable argument for why abortion should be legal. The only conclusion I can come to, then, is some sort of demonic inspiration.
I will gladly wish, hope, and pray for these people to come to their senses. And, if a Merry Christmas helps that come about, then, I might even wish that upon them.
@Theresa: Hahahahahaha, that was clever! *giggles*
@John: There is no such thing as “demons”. It makes you sound silly to talk about “demonic inspiration” or “possession”.
Don’t be intolerant, Rae.
I’m not being intolerant. It seriously makes people look “unhinged” when they start yammering on about demonic possession.
Pro-choice folks are not possessed, they are not evil…most are just very misguided or don’t fully understand how incongruous abortion is with the rest of their views. Sure, there are some that deliberately and knowingly lie about abortion, but I feel they are just a very vocal minority (much like the “Army of God” on the Pro-life side: a tiny, vocal minority).
Now if you can empirically demonstrate that demons are real and that pro-choicers are possessed by said demons, I will eat my shirt (with barbecue sauce and french fries).
If demons aren’t real then who ARE these voices in my head?
Maybe it’s a fluke….but they keep telling me to krill myself in a little whale.
OMG–I can’t stop….
OK, Rae, so you aren’t being intolerant. You’re just mocking the religious beliefs of millions of Christians as “silly”, seeing as how Jesus himself said that demons exist.
Fine, then, I’ll pray that the pro-aborts regain some vestige of sanity, regardless of the cause of the insanity. Happy now? Or is prayer also silly? After all, I can’t provide empirical evidence that it does anything.
The only thing is, what about all those babies who will never know the joy of celebrating a Christmas with their families because their life was snuffed out in the womb? Lets remember those tiny ones and their moms and dads who now have empty arms and maybe troubled consciences.
I agree with John however, that the negative media portrayal negates any benefits of protesting. Pray to the Divine Infant that no one will have an abortion on this day, His birthday.
“Maybe it’s a fluke….but they keep telling me to krill myself in a little whale.
OMG–I can’t stop….”
@Theresa: Lol, that’s great. Flukes are creepy, nothing more fantastic than parasitic worms.
But I gotta say, “krill yourself”: I laughed out loud. :D
“Pray to the Divine Infant that no one will have an abortion on this day, His birthday.”
I’m willing to bet no self-respecting abortionist is going to work on his paid holiday. I mean, there have to be limits you know….professional standards and all. I mean if one abortionist works on the “Happy Holiday” then people will start expecting them all to give up their day off on Dec. 25th….it’ll be anarchy.
@ Rae:
Glad to see I’m not the only one here with a wacky sense of humor!
“OK, Rae, so you aren’t being intolerant. You’re just mocking the religious beliefs of millions of Christians as “silly”, seeing as how Jesus himself said that demons exist.
Fine, then, I’ll pray that the pro-aborts regain some vestige of sanity, regardless of the cause of the insanity. Happy now? Or is prayer also silly? After all, I can’t provide empirical evidence that it does anything.”
John, I apologize if I came off as hostile, I didn’t mean to. I do think the concept of “demons” is silly, but that is my opinion. However, it was not my intention to offend, but obviously I did, and I apologize.
I don’t find prayer silly. I don’t use it because I find it useless, but if it gives you comfort I see nothing wrong with it. *shrugs* I see prayer as a way of dealing with things that you don’t understand/can’t comprehend. I think that is why prayer is said to help when you’re sick, as it allows you to calm down and reduces stress (much like meditation, as prayer is sometimes like meditation is it not?) which makes you healthier.
I really didn’t mean to come off as an arse or as condescending (though I can definitely see how I did come off as that…*cringe*).
Lol, Theresa:
“Bee Fish Ewe A Mare Egret Moose Panda Hippo Gnu Deer!”
I don’t get it : (
The only time I harassed someone for eating meat was when my parents got live lobsters and I bonded with them.
Rae, seeing as how dialogue with pro-aborts is a complete waste of time, I have no ‘choice’ but to turn to prayer.
@Jess: If you read those words out-loud it sounds kinda like “We wish you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year”.
@Rae,
It is very difficult to personalize evil in this way, especially when moral relativism is so fashionable. But this was a very large part of Jesus’ own ministry and did He not send out His disciples to ‘cast out devils …’? Perhaps it is us with the perception problem!
“Rae, seeing as how dialogue with pro-aborts is a complete waste of time, I have no ‘choice’ but to turn to prayer.”
Apparently you don’t really think that too much as you frequently talk to a few of the “pro-aborts” on here.
*shrugs*
I always enjoy having a dialog with the “enemy” as [to me] it is interesting to see what the opposition is thinking. I’m fairly liberal, and I come on here to see what the opposition is up to and sometimes y’all make good points that I do take into consideration (ie the problems with Universal Health Care).
“It is very difficult to personalize evil in this way, especially when moral relativism is so fashionable. But this was a very large part of Jesus’ own ministry and did He not send out His disciples to ‘cast out devils …’? Perhaps it is us with the perception problem!”
Well here’s a little problem with this assumption John, I am not a moral relativist. I just don’t think folks with a particular political view point (even one I disagree with) are evil. Sure, there are evil people in the world, I do believe it exists (I see it whenever I turn on the news and see that another person has been pointlessly murdered).
There is also the whole problem with Jesus sending his disciples to “cast out the devils”. Perhaps he was speaking metaphorically? However, I can’t really comment on this as I don’t believe in Jesus’ divinity. *shrugs*
So Rae, and I mean this in all sincerity (not trying to be an arse!) Since Jesus claims to be the Son of God, and part of the Triune God-Head that means if you do not believe he was Lord, then you are left with he was either a lunatic or a liar….I’m just curious which one you think it was?
I think that this is taking it too far. I agree with MK’s random acts of kindness idea.
Oh my god, I agree with Laura.
I think I just fell off my chair….
Don’t worry Carrie….I’m sure it’s only temporary and probably not contagious. But still, you might want to sanitize your keyboard
@Theresa: Oh this is *probably* going to get me in trouble… but I’m going to say “lunatic” (even though I bloody hate that word).
*cringe*
I wonder who will be more horrified, me or Laura?
Don’t cringe
Hey, for you guys that like making cookies and so on, like I do, do yourself a favor. Don’t eat any dough that has raw eggs in it. That nasty flu-bug I thought I had is Salmonella, and this is TERRIBLE. Pain, throwing up, and it’s supposed to last till after Christmas :-( Especially yous with kids. Bad bad bad.
BTW–I am disappointed that TexasRed never showed up….this thread should have sent her completely over the edge.
Of course, I had to pull both hooves out of my maw in order to make that statement.)
:)
@Theresa: Thanks, I think?
Flukes are great, I loved learning about flatworms in biology, they were my favorite “critter” that we learned about.
Wolbachia are a really fascinating genus of bacteria, they can feminize male insects and make them lay eggs through parthenogenesis.
Sorry to hear that Erin.
@Theresa: What? Hooves taste good. That’s why babies are always sucking on their toes. Obviously there is something quite tasty about feet…
Me thinks I’m trying too hard to be clever.
@Erin: I’m sorry to hear that you have Salmonella. That sucks. :(
“Wolbachia”
Did you just call me a wolf-bitch? ;)
I consider myself a hardliner as far as tactics go, but the more I think about this idea the more it bothers me.
Rae–you must have missed our exchange. TR was having a meltdown and resorted to some comment about me not being able to deliver Christmas goodies with both hooves in my maw….which I thought was totally hysterical! It will now be my battle cry…or maybe my Native American name:
“With Both Hooves in Maw”!
That’s it…I’m changing my screen name to Hooves in Maw.
Can I do that?
Oops…I just did!
It looks better with hyphens.
Hooves, you are on a roll tonight.
Carrie:
Can you elaborate?
I mean elaborate about what bothers you…
@Hooves-in-Maw/Theresa: No, I saw that exchange, hence the reason I was trying to be funny about how hooves/feet taste good. :)
And no, I wasn’t calling you a wolf-bitch…eep! No, “Wolbachia” is a genus of bacteria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolbachia
Well, I am not really sure. I don’t have a problem with protests at private homes. I guess that fact that it is Christmas. What MK said really had an effect on me too.
@ Rae: I know you weren
Although I don’t agree with it, I do feel for the plers that are going to do it. They are going to have one tough day.
Merry Christmas Theresa. I have to start on my Christmas Eve dinner prep.
Merry Christmas everyone.
Merry Christmas all…must go myself!
Nice chatting with you Rae!
–Hooves
Well, it’s their first amendment right, so I’m not going to stop them. But I disagree with it. If they’re trying to send a message to respect the sanctity of life, why would they consider sending it in a disrespectful way? And I don’t care how passionate people are about the issue, Christmas–if one celebrates it–should be spent with one’s family. Not out in the cold “trying to get a message across.”
Gosh, it isn’t even Christmas yet and I’m all Christmased out. Two celebrations down, three to go…
Jill why do you find it a good idea?
This is Will, the founder of CO Families Against Planned Parenthood. It’s my idea to do these protests, including on Christmas, so I figure I should probably defend them. (I haven’t read every post here yet, but I’ll sure try.)
The main reason to protest at someone’s home is not only to convince them to stop what they’re doing, but more importantly, to discourage the next person from doing it. Protesting abortionist’s homes has the abortion industry in a crisis. Med students aren’t willing to become abortionist’s because of the lifestyle that follows, including home protests. Yes, even on holidays. (Does a baby-killer deserve a peaceful holiday?)
Protesting the homes of contractors who are willing to construct a building that they know will be used to rip the arms and legs off of little children is serving the same purpose. Anyone who is willing to work for Planned Parenthood is complicit in the crimes Planned Parenthood commits. Contractors out here in Colorado are already turning down this project because there has been media coverage of our home protests. Yes, even on holidays. The news has given special attention to the fact that we will be out there on Christmas. Yes, even on Christmas.
We are sending a message to the world that it’s not okay to make money off the backs of dead babies. Working for Planned Parenthood is no different than working for Adolf Hitler. Oh yeah, their excuses were very similar to many on this blog. “We were just doing our job.” We will not have child killing in tranquility and believe me, the last thing I want to be doing is protesting on Christmas morning. But it’s my duty for the unborn and the Lord. Contractors now and in years to come will not help Planned Parenthood build their abortion super centers because of our home protests. That’s a victory.
“I am pro-life all year, I don’t take holidays off. Sounds like a great way to show love to the unborn as well as remind contractors their efforts will prevent some from experiencing the joy of Christmas. Great idea.”
I agree.
“Gosh, it isn’t even Christmas yet and I’m all Christmased out. Two celebrations down, three to go…”
Well, as an unbeliever in Christ Jesus, why go.
Will D: The news has given special attention to the fact that we will be out there on Christmas. Yes, even on Christmas.
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…And the Westboro Baptist Church carries their “God Hates Fags” signs at military funerals, Yes, even at military funerals.
I think both you and the Westboro freaks have earned some “special attention.”
Will,
I completely agree. Thank-you for all of hard work in defending unborn children.
Laura,
That comparison is a real insult. btw: The Westboro Baptist Church leader is a Democrat, like you.
@Jasper: But he’s not a *real* Democrat. Kind of like how he’s not a *real* Christian either. A Christian like you.
@Jasper: This is not to say you’re like Fred Phelps, you aren’t. But you identify as a Christian, correct? So does Fred Phelps. Laura identifies as a Democrat, so does Fred Phelps. Kinda the same dealie. He’s not a real Democrat, nor is he a real Christian.
So why he’s brought up, is beyond me. Crazy old fool, I look forward to celebrating when he croaks.
Christmas is a celebration of life – in fact it is the celebration of a baby being born. If someone is for abortion than they have already crushed in their hearts the goodness that is celebrated on Christmas.
Protesters could not crush the celebration of life, only the one who is against the sanctity of life could crush it in his or her own heart.
That comparison is a real insult. btw: The Westboro Baptist Church leader is a Democrat, like you.
Posted by: jasper at December 23, 2007 9:43 PM
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Ted Bundy was a Republican, like you!
Do you have something like a point?
Rae,
Well, the bad Laura brought up the ugly comparion of pro-lifers to the despicable Westboro Baptist Church.
“We are sending a message to the world that it’s not okay to make money off the backs of dead babies”
You consistently send such a message. Christmas is still an inappropriate time to protest someone’s personal home. There’s a time and place to do things.
Good for Laura.
Don’t stoop to her level then, Jasper.
why are all of these non-believers commenting on how Christmas is a bad time to protest. When they really don’t care or believe Jesus….
jasper, how many people here who say this are unbelievers? Why don’t we start a count.
hm…there’s dan and laura and rae and doug.
So that’s 4. Anyone else out there I’m missing?
I still “celebrate” Christmas.
I think it’s a good time to get together with my family and friends and be grateful that I know so many wonderful people. :)
I fully agree with what Will D. uses as justification for the Christmas protests. The “volume” of the message sent will be even higher given the fact that it is being broadcast on Christmas Day.
Putting pressure on abortion clinic builders etc. should be a 365 days a year task.
Rae-
Oh absolutely! I was responding to the charge of being “unbelievers.”
Besides the fact that a number of very religious people here are expressing opposition, I feel the charge that certain people just don’t “deserve” to spend quality time with their family and friends is just appallingly elitist.
If ‘unbelievers in Jesus’ can’t express the fact that such a protest is inappropriate this is another example of what the pro-life movement wants to avoid. That is, alienating people.
You guys are acting like Christmas is this club that only Christians deserve to celebrate. Maybe the meaning is different for people; nobody says that this can’t be a time of spending some quality time with family and friends and appreciate them. And non-Christian theists must not be able to pray on the day either, right? They don’t deserve it!
Anyway I think that whole charge is stupid.
“The “volume” of the message sent will be even higher given the fact that it is being broadcast on Christmas Day.”
What message do you think will be sent to people? That prochoice people are a**holes? That’s the message that will be sent to most of the people I think.
pro-life rather than pro-choice people are a**holes*
Jasper (and others), just because you don’t believe in jesus doesn’t mean you don’t celebrate.
Christmas, for me as a non-christian, is the only time I get to spend with my ENTIRE family. And that is why it is celebrated.
To protest someone’s home during that celebration is a terrible thing to do. If you really want to be respected and still want to do something, I would suggest, as others here have, a silent prayer vigil, or something.
That way, you could get your message across, and still allow other people (like the other families on the street) to celebrate.
Jasper, I do not recall EVER saying I am an unbeliever. Simply because I do not follow one doctrine doesnt make me an unbeliever. I do believe in God, and Jesus Christ, His Son and savior.
I square my beliefs how I square them, and they are between myself and God. He will do with me what He believes I deserve, and I will accept that when it comes. I have chosen my course, and He will do as He wishes based on my own decisions.
Even if I were an unbeliever, Christmas can be celebrated without being Christian simply for the belief in the message it sends- love and peace.
Jasper:
I dont remember Jill asking just the Christians to answer the question.
I also dont remember anyone saying that “non-believers” couldn’t celebrate Christmas either.
Please inform me where I can find this specific information.
—————————————-
I am agnostic, and I still celebrate Christmas. I was raised as a Christian (Presbyterian Church USA). I am actually still a member at my church, but I do not attend services there. I would find that to be hypocritical, and I never try to be one of those people.
Christmas is a time for me to spend with my family and friends: the people that I love, people I am loyal to, and people I would die for if need be.
This time of year is one of two times I get to see my grandparents. They are old and will not be around much longer. I sit and talk with them about anything and everything, b/c I want them to know how much they mean to me. Just b/c I do not think there is a God, does not mean I should not be allowed to do these things. You are sounding like a bitter old man.
________________________________________
Christmas is a time for love, peace & forgiveness.
By protesting outside of these people’s homes you are showing the world that (1)you do not follow your faith as you should (2)your an a–hole
(3)you have no dignity and (4)your lower than scum.
If this was simply a “prayer vigil”, I’d have no problem with it. And before you ask, no, I do not pray; I haven’t in years. I find it silly and useless, but I respect other’s opinions on the matter.
A prayer vigil would show that the PL side has some class, and can show love, mercy and respect. Not to mention, y’all might gain some more followers and respect from the PC side.
If y’all show up with those god awful signs and actually protest, I will lose a lot of respect (some that was gained here) for y’alls side.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
OK, I am done with my rant now. I hope everyone has a Merry Christmas (even you Jasper).
:-)
Will D, I don’t agree with this, but I still support all your other efforts as leader of FAPP in Colorado. You guys are going to have a tough day on Christmas. I hope you guys are safe.:)
I am concerned for you safety Will D. Will you come on here to let us know that you made it through the day OK?
As for the talk about non-believers and Christmas, I was an atheist for 20 years and still celebrated Christmas. I just didn’t celebrate it for the reasons that believers did. I thought of Christmas as a time for family,service to those in need etc…
Ummm…so my answer to the original question:
I think you should spend Christmas morning with your family and loved ones, not trying to vindictively ruin someone else’s Christmas with their family and loved ones.
It’s interesting to note that the reason for this protest would be to reach the consciences and hearts of pro choice individuals…
And all of the pro choicers on this site have said that a “picket”on Christmas would make them think of us as “unchristian”…
If the point is to show them Christ, and everyone of them has said that this would turn them away from Him, then I think you need to think very hard and long about what you are trying to accomplish.
If you are just going for shock value, then have at it. But if you are truly trying to change hearts, then you need to ask yourself, “Why are we doing this”?
Knowing your enemy is an important strategy in any war. Loving your enemy is the most important strategy in THIS war.
The question is, Do you want them to hate us, or join us?
I’m trying to give them something. It sounds like you are trying to take something away. I want them to see the truth and come to love their babies, as well as THE BABY this season.
The three wise men were not Jews. They did not belong to the “faith” and yet they came bearing “gifts” for the “other side”…The Jews however, killed one of their own.
Lyssie,
Went to Mass with my dad today, MK. :P
*
*hug*
*
Have a great Christmas, all.
Posted by: Lyssie at December 23, 2007 4:20 PM
Miracle number one and counting…
You’ve made an old broad very, very happy. And you made me cry!
I love you. Merry, Merry, Blessed, Blessed, Christmas…
PIP, Midnite, Dan, Rae,
OK, I didn’t mean to offend you. I was just trying to understand why non-Christians celebrate Christmas. Thanks.
Jasper,
I think non-Christians celebrate Christmas because the Holy Spirit is working…
They may not “believe” in God, but they believe in “Love” and whether they realize it or not it is the same thing…
He believes in them, and has an effect on them, whether they realize it or not.
I certainly don’t celebrate “Eid al-Fitr or Diwali…I don’t believe in them. But I also don’t think the “spirit” of them can touch me because I don’t think it exists. I’m not “moved” to celebrate…
But even non-believers of Jesus’ birth ARE moved, because the spirit is REAL…it affects them. It affects us all.
Miracle number two…non believers are “touched” and “moved” by the Christmas Spirit…
Have a very beautiful Christmas Jasper…
You’re the best!
Will, Thanks for your leadership in Colorado. You are in my prayers as we fight the evil PP has brought to our community in Illinois.
Laura, more twisted logic with the westboro thing. Just when I think it can’t get any more looney you post again. More insight into the minds of the pro-aborts.
Why all the non-believers defending their celebration of CHRISTmas? Seems to be bordering on hypocrisy.
Oh, and Merry Christmas to all…
MK,
Thanks so much for explaining that to me. I agree.
Merry Christmas to you and your family.
Tim,
Becoming a Christian, a believer, is a journey. Who you meet on the path can mean the difference between continuing the journey or quitting and going home.
Why would I want to “hog” Christmas, or put “rules” on who can and who cannot celebrate it. You may be further along in your faith journey, but perhaps by celebrating one aspect of Christmas, a person will be moved to move a step or two more in their own journey.
My favorite line in any Christmas song is from O Holy Night, a song written by a non believer…
“Long lay the world, in sin and error pining…Til He appeared and the soul felt it’s worth…A Thrill of hope and a weary world rejoices…”
This is not a gift for me alone. It is a gift offered to anyone willing to accept it. Let EVERYONE celebrate. Let EVERYONE be open to the possibility of hope. You never know which “Moment” will be the one…
Do you honestly want to turn people away simply because they are not as far along as you on their journey.
“Come in, Come in! Warm yourself! Have something to eat!”…This must be our response to the travelers.
Jasper,
You actually knew it already…
It’s a fine line between “defending” our faith and “promoting” it. I understand.
But I think that this is the point of Christmas. To lay down the weapons and embrace the beauty. The simpleness of a baby…unarmed and unable to communicate in any but the simplest of ways. For one day of the year, it’s all about open arms and a child’s smile…bare bones, no frills, pure, innocent love…
The complications can come tomorrow…
Well said mk. I agree and would prefer all to celebrate Christmas. I just find it odd that there are some here who profess their non-beliefs and then defend their Christmas celebrations. That doesn’t seem to be intellectually honest.
Merry Christmas
Tim,
But don’t you think that what lives in the mind and what lives in the heart are not always the same thing. You can “say” that you don’t believe, but isn’t it possible that you are just “unaware” that you actually do believe?
Weren’t most of those fires in California started from a single spark?
Tim,
And the Merriest Christmas to you too…
ABL, PiP: You asked why I think this picket is “proper and commendable.” Several reasons.
I’ll first say that MK does persuade me with her cookies suggestion, and the German/American analogy is also persuasive.
But the horror of what those people are facilitating overrides all that in my mind.
To picket on Christmas Day does almost seem sacriligious, but it’s a day these people (and all pro-aborts) do not celebrate with the right understanding of it anyway. Seems to me a picket on Christmas Day stands a chance of helping them get it more than any other – the ghastly juxtoposition of celebrating Jesus’ birth to their support of abortion.
I am concerned this picket will have the opposite impact, yet pickets on the other 364 days of the year appear not to compel them.
Also, this picket more than anything else done to date will impact those considering helping PP Denver – and any other around the country. I think that is my biggest reason for supporting it.
That said, I appreciate that other pro-life activists will disagree; there’s a little of me that disagrees with myself on this one.
Jill,
I see where you are coming from, but just as they don’t “celebrate with the right understanding of” Christmas, I think they will also not “get” the “juxtaposition” that you speak of.
They don’t see Christ, they won’t see the irony of abortion compared to Christ.
To properly understand the message that you are killing babies on a day meant to celebrate the birth of One, will be lost unless they accept the “reason” they are celebrating to begin with.
Am I making sense?
yet pickets on the other 364 days of the year appear not to compel them.
tsk, tsk…such a defeatist attitude…who says we are not “compelling” them the other 364? We might not see the fruits today, but seeds take a long time to germinate, let alone grow into plants.
Aren’t we the ones that claim “unborn” babes like “seeds” are every bit as real as born babes and full grown plants?
Only time will tell if we are impacting the uninitiated or not…
Jill,
Merry Christmas my dear, dear friend! In the words of a child that would have been aborted in todays climate…
“GOD BLESS US EVERYONE”…
Jill, Your comment above is exactly why I have removed all links to this blog from my websites and blogs. While many of your articles have inspired me. I am under impression however that many of your articles are aimed at stirring up debates that often are heated with hatred. My goodness, if any of pro-lifers behave the same way in front of abortion mills as they do here- a lot of damage is being done. I think it is very unwise to encourage such protest. On Christmas of all days! If the other 364 days are not doing much good, maybe it is time to reevaluate one’s tactic and approach? What if this executive is “post-abortive”? Did any one tried to talk to him ad explain what he is doing? If am not mistaken you’ve had written plenty about all the lies involved in Aurora. What if this executive has no idea he is helping PP? Aurora authorities were deceived, were they not? I would suggest to try establishing some sort of communication with him before considering this action. If it comes to it, I do hope it will not be Christmas day. I wish you luck but I do hope people in Denver will decide against this protest.
Vlad,
I do not understand why it is you think that Jill is the one stirring up these “heated debates filled with hatred.” If you have read many of the comments there is very little hate on them from the PL side. If you read some of the other comments, however, they are filled with it. I also do not understand how you really can think that the abortion debate isn’t a heated one anyway. It draws lots of emotions out in people regardless of what Jill posts. You constantly point the finger at pro-lifers and I really can’t understand why that is since you claim to BE a pro-lifer.
It is heated already, and I am well aware of that. There is no need of hate in this debate. The fact that defenders of abortion hate us is not an excuse for us to hate them back. Christ certainly will not do that. I point my fingers to things that I believe prevent us from being successful 364 days a year.
Vlad,
You are such a drama queen!
Merry CHRISTmas, though!!!!
Elizabeth,
I am sure that I am no pro-lifer by your standards. I do however believe that God wants “post-abortive” people to heal first, so they in turn can free the wold from the evil of abortion.
Laura,
I will take “drama queen” over “Satan” any time. :)
Merry Christmas to you as well.
Jill,
Thanks for your response. Very interesting! After reading your post & Will’s post, it got me thinking as to how many times I was at PP praying, protesting, etc. I remember some people that were there and said that God was leading them to do “this”. There was a man standing there every day with the “gory” signs – he’s been doing this for 15 years. He said that he was doing it because God has led him to do. I certainly do not know the hearts of those picketing in Colorado on Christmas day, but if God is REALLY leading them to do this, then I say “go for it”!
Like John McD said, I hope they have really prayed about this!
MK–
I just got caught up on today’s posts and I want to say that you are very eloquent and thoughtful. I just started attending a new church about 6 weeks ago that I have really come to like. Yesterday morning I found out that on Wed. night there was a crash at the intersection of my church which killed one young man and seriously wounded 8 others. It actually pushed the cars into the church lawn. Thursday morning when the pastor found out he rallied the church and many individuals have donated time and resources to provide refreshments, fire-pits and counseling at the vigil that
I’d just like to say also that this question has prompted some of the best responses (as far as being thought out) that I
Merry Christmas, eveybody. This was the front of my sister’s card this year. Her kids, Andrew Douglas, Victoria Faith, and Nathan Scott.
I am sure that I am no pro-lifer by your standards. I do however believe that God wants “post-abortive” people to heal first, so they in turn can free the wold from the evil of abortion.
Vlad, are you a post abortive father?
Doug,
A Merry Christmas, happy new year, and happy holiday season to you and everyone on this blog. I think I covered all my bases and no one is offended!
The children are beautiful. Thank you. The eyes on that little girl!! My eye fixation strikes again!
It is heated already, and I am well aware of that. There is no need of hate in this debate. The fact that defenders of abortion hate us is not an excuse for us to hate them back. Christ certainly will not do that. I point my fingers to things that I believe prevent us from being successful 364 days a year.
Vlad, Elizabeth didn’t even imply that she or anyone else here hated abortion supporters. In fact, if you would have read her post, she said the exact opposite. I suspect that you didn’t even read her post before you replied.
Those children are beautiful! All of them…just gorgeous.
Merry Christmas Mary and to everyone.
That little boy on the right could be a model…talk about eyes!!
I agree with you AB laura! Vlad is a drama queen. What will we do without his lectures and admonishments? You also made a good point in your recent paragraph about the Christmas protest.
Carrie,
Thank you! Have a very, merry CHRISTmas!!!
Doug,
Your family is absolutely beautiful!!! I swear, every one of them can be models, including your niece which you’ve posted here before! Beautiful names that match these beautiful children!
Have a very, merry CHRISTmas!
HUZZAH!
I got to ope a gift early last night. And I got a brand new coffe and espresso/latte maker! It grinds the beans, and froths the milk! OOOOOHHHHH, I am going to be on en espresso high for months to come!
__________________________________________________
MK: I love ya, have a safe and happy holidays! I promise to come visit when it gets warm in Chicago again (Southern skin does not fair well in extreme cold).
———————————————
Bethany:
Happy Holidays to you too! I will find time to drive north to see you sometime in January :-) !!
————————————————–
To everyone else: Merry Chirstmas, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year!
__________________________________________________
I am off to see Santa drive by on a fire-truck for my friend’s little boy. And tomorrow I leave for the beach, so I dont know how much time I’ll have to check in over the next few days.
Midnite, I’m looking forward to it! :) Merry Christmas everyone. :)
Vlad, are you a post abortive father?
Bethany,
No, I am not. Would you treat me different if I was? If so, then treat every one the way you would treat me if I was post abortive father. You can’t go wrong with that. :)
Vlad
Thank you very much, hooves in law…you cleared my reasons for asking up quite nicely.
And I agree with your sentiments about being treated as though you’re post abortive when you’re really not. It definitely would not make sense.
Oops, I’m sorry. Your screen name is Hooves-in-Maw. I got that wrong the first time. :)
Hooves,
You would not appreciate to be treated with respect and love???
Well then. I have nothing more to say.
I am not saying you shoul should jump into offering prayers and support to every who comes here to comment. That is not what I am saying at all.
Just simple adherence to the golden rule will do, just fine.
On the other hand it would be better if prayers were offered to a non post abortive person, rather than calling a post abortive woman or man a baby killer, a satan, a possesed and all sorts of other names.
Just simple adherence to the golden rule will do, just fine.
Maybe you could start applying the golden rule when you speak to pro-lifers.
Our Denver FAPP brothers & sisters have proven to be of sober minds when tough decisions are in order. On this matter of picketing Christmas morning, it is not a haphazard thought. Rest assured, they have bathed it in prayer. Their plan is not sinful. They are trusting in God for the outcome. I commend them for their faithfulness and regret I am not able to join them. Let’s hold them up in prayer for the rest of today and into tomorrow, whether we agree with this action or not…they need it!
The point is to embarrass those who are doing despicable things (and who know what they’re doing and don’t care), because only disrespect from others will make them change their minds.
You have to reach those people whose respect they most desire — their neighbors, coworkers, family and church friends. The point of these protests is to let those people know their friend or relative is participating in the killing of small children. Let’s see how proud they are of their death camps, then!
If Christmas is the only day when that message can be brought through, clearly and soundly, then it’s the best day for a protest. I don’t think God or Christ would disapprove of this noble act, standing up for His own most precious sons and daughters. These people are heroes!
Hmmmm
Greg,
I think you are definitely walking a fine line, but it sounds like you have got your priorities outlined and are walking with God on this one. I hope you have prayer warriors out there with you, and will be praying for your safety and effectiveness. Your motives and directives appear to be clear and I admire your boldness
Bethany–can you tell me how to get your text to italicize? I haven’t been able to get it to work…
Sure, no problem! … I will have to email you though, because if I send you the code through a post, it will disappear when it is posted. :)
Can you send me an email, and then I can reply to it? My email is listed on the sidebar…just click on my name in the moderators list.
Thanks! :)
Actually, this may be easier…check out this website which tells you how to italicize, bold, and underline, etc…
http://www.annabella.net/basics.html#italics
Hopefully it’ll help you out…if not, you’re still free to send me an email and I can help you more! :)
Angela, I will definitely hold them up in prayer today and tomorrow. I am concerned about them and I hope that they are ok. I will pray for Will D. and the rest of the FAPP CO.
Vlad, isn’t pride a sin? That’s something that you seem to have in abundance.
“Vlad, are you a post abortive father?
Bethany,
No, I am not. Would you treat me different if I was? If so, then treat every one the way you would treat me if I was post abortive father. You can’t go wrong with that. :)”
Vlad, of all people, Bethany always treats people with respect, pro-aborts and pro-lifers.
I think your problem is mostly with me here…and I see you still haven’t forgiven me over the Satan comment. I’m not perfect, but I do know the Truth about abortion should not be hidden, but exposed. Planned Parenthood already does the job of hiding the truth about abortion. Again, the pictures are not to condemn people, but warn them.
I think picketing someones home shows the total lack of respect antichoicers have for everyone they dont agree with and just how self centered and inconsiderate they are. They dont care about family, they dont care about neighbors, they dont care about anyone but themselves. Then they whine ‘but its for the baaaaaaabies’. It isnt. Its for themselves and their own control freak megalomania.
Yea!! TR finally showed up!!
;)
Bethany–thanks for the help, I’ll check out that site once I get a break in the Christmas dinner prep!
Directed to TexasRed —
Every “thought” you wrote (posted: Dec 24th 1:08PM) is being repudiated by this author, on behalf of pro-lifers.
Let it be known that what you wrote is YOUR OPINION and NOTHING MORE.
Directed to TexasRed —
Every “thought” you wrote (posted: Dec 24th 1:08PM) is being repudiated by this author, on behalf of pro-lifers.
Let it be known that what you wrote is YOUR OPINION and NOTHING MORE.
Posted by: Angela at December 24, 2007 1:47 PM
****************
Not a single thing I pointed out is being repudiated and putting thought in quotation marks makes you look foolish. Let it be known that your opinion is worth exactly jack diddly squat as far as Im concerned. Antichoicers prove themselves to be egocentric, self centered, self absorbed, selfish and megalomaniacal time and time again. They wimper ‘its for the babies’ but it isnt. Its for their own self centered egocentric control freak megalomania. NO ONE should be ALLOWED to disagree with them! How laughable!
“If Christmas is the only day when that message can be brought through, clearly and soundly, then it’s the best day for a protest.”
It is not the only day. Why would they “get the message” more on Christmas than any other day protesting? The message isn’t changing, and the only thing that will change is that pro-lifers seem more like jerks than previously thought.
An image we are trying very hard to erase.
As somebody already said, if you feel that protesting the other 364 days of the year hasn’t been working, then protesting on Christmas isn’t going to, either. It would be time to think about changing the strategy.
I just had a thought…what if the family you are protesting isn’t home? Plenty of people go away for chirstmas…
Because if they aren’t home, not only do you look like jerks, but you aren’t accomplishing anything and just bothering all the neighbours….
“Why would they “get the message” more on Christmas than any other day protesting?”
to let know them how strongly we feel about the horror of abortion.
“The message isn’t changing, and the only thing that will change is that pro-lifers seem more like jerks than previously thought.”
Well PIP, you can worry about what other people think and we’ll worry about the unborn children being slaughtered.
If hijacking Christmas to promote your political agenda is appropriate, wouldn’t THIS be appropriate?:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2007/12/22/2007-12-22_man_protests_commercialized_christmas_by.html
Heck, the guy expressing himself on his own property!
jasper-
“to let know them how strongly we feel about the horror of abortion.”
With all due respect they already have a good idea and a small quiet prayer vigil would send the same message in a more peaceful manner.
“Well PIP, you can worry about what other people think and we’ll worry about the unborn children being slaughtered.”
Well jasper, maybe you could explain to me how laws will be changed if we alienate and offend the people we need to be on our side.
Public thought needs to change-people need to see abortion for what it is- if we want abortion to be illegal. I’m sure they’d love to listen to our arguments when they think of us as “egocentric, self centered, self absorbed, selfish and megalomaniacal.”
It’s time you start thinking critically jasper. ;)
PIP,
Good question, I’ll answer that in about 2 hrs. I have to go out now. thanks.. Merry Christmas…..
Merry Christmas to you too, jasper! I’m pretty excited. Any special plans for the holiday?
Well PIP, you can worry about what other people think and we’ll worry about the unborn children being slaughtered.
Posted by: jasper at December 24, 2007 2:18 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You hate children.
Why else would you endorse waving a bloody, revolting fetus photo in a residential neighborhood?
You know that the children on that street will be out of school and launching their new bikes, Big Wheels, scooters, skates, and ‘boards.
Puritanism. The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.
H. L. Mencken
OK
Liberalism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be taking responsibility for their actions.
hi, my name is prettyinpink
It’s been 3 months since I ate a pro-abortionist.
On my honor, may my fashion sense and taste in men be faulty (truly a bad outcome indeed).
Oh, PIP–that’s amazing!
Keep up with the program!
(Lest we need an intervention!)
lol I will try. Interventions take a lot of energy!
Yes indeed….we’d have to change your name to something horrible.
Like “Pretty in Gingham-Check” ;)
lol how horrible!
Regardless of whether it’s Christmas or St. Patty’s day, I think it’s wrong to picket someone’s house, particularly because they’re not an abortionist or someone who had an abortion, but a construction worker.
Those people work VERY hard and often don’t get a lot of work in the wintertime, so they struggle to make enough to take care of their families. If I was struggling, I would take the job. After all, it’s just a building. I mean, saying a construction worker shouldn’t build a clinic that MIGHT be used for abortions is like saying an atheist shouldn’t build a church.
The building could change, too. Maybe one day (if abortion is made illegal) it will be used for something else, a dentist’s office or something. Don’t blame the construction workers for what happens in the buildings they make. They’re just trying to make an honest living doing what they do best.
And their families don’t deserve to be treated that way, on Christmas or any time of the year. That kind of radicalism harms families and makes pro-lifers look like jerks who have no family values.
I think people should have the right to protest, but there are boundaries and the privacy of a person’s home is one of them. Not just on Christmas, but any time of the year.
Vlad, isn’t pride a sin? That’s something that you seem to have in abundance.
Carrie, How did you arrive to this conclusion? Hooves-in-Maw, I guess I just need to say thank you. Being called wice “drama queen” is much better than once being called Satan. Jasper, I did forgive you. It does not mean it did not leave a bad after taste or that I should forget. All, Have a Merry Christmas. Don’t be afraid to change. ;)
To forgive sans forgetting is no different than not forgiving in the first place.
Walk your talk, Vlad.
Hi,
My name is MK and I haven’t eaten a prochoicer since last night *burp*…well, I didn’t actually eat one, just nibbled. But if we’re going to be honest here…
And I chased a 90 year old prochoice old lady with my umbrella screaming “RUN, RUDOLPH, RUN!” but she got away.
I know I have a problem because it is affecting my family life. There is a pile of bones under my bed and just last night the dog choked on one.
And the 7 year old keeps looking at the jar of Pro choicers eyeballs that I keep on the dresser and asking me for a gumball…
I cannot stop alone. I need help and that’s why I’ve come tonight…
Vlad, I don’t think you’re Satan. I do, however, think that you are a Pharisee.
To all the prochoicers on here that claim we never jump on one of our own, take note…
Forgive:
for
lol MK @ your pro-choicer eating post. LOL
Directed to TexassRed —
You wrote:
“Not a single thing I pointed out is being repudiated and putting thought in quotation marks makes you look foolish.”
According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
re-pu-di-ate, verb
1. to reject as having no authority or binding force
2. to reject with denial
3. to reject with disapproval or condemnation
4. to reject emphatically as unfounded, untrue or unjust.
So listen up: Every “thought” you wrote (posted: Dec 24th 1:08PM) is being repudiated by this author, on behalf of pro-lifers.
It is all a matter of understanding language.
Just to clarify, since it seems some of the comments think these protests are directed toward construction workers — they’re not.
The protests are directed toward the homes of the tip-top Presidents and Vice Presidents of the companies responsible for building the abortion death camps. These are the people who would fire those modest construction workers simply for expressing a desire to not construct an abortuary out of concern for their mortal souls!
In fact, these presidents and vice presidents have lied to contractors, issued threats to make sure no one breaks their contracts (even though they were lied to), and some of those who have left the project for reasons of conscience now live in fear for their lives because of the vehemence of the threats against them by these presidents.
Weitz is evil, because the management has embraced the project wholeheartedly, have refused to listen to reason, and use questionable and likely illegal tactics to do their dirty work. The people who work for them may not be evil, but they associate themselves with the evil (just as did the German camp guards) by doing the bidding and not standing up to say, “This is wrong! I will not do this!”
OMG–MK!!
I bow to your powers of hilarity!!
I’m not worthy
And all pro-lifers here I am sure agree with you wholeheartedly too, Anonymous. Thanks for helping TR understand the English language a little better today.
Tomorrow’s word check for TexasRed: “Megalomania”.
…just place it between the clove, lest it roll off my outstretched hoof.
Directed to TexassRed —
You wrote:
“Not a single thing I pointed out is being repudiated and putting thought in quotation marks makes you look foolish.”
According to the American Heritage Dictionary:
re-pu-di-ate, verb
1. to reject as having no authority or binding force
2. to reject with denial
3. to reject with disapproval or condemnation
4. to reject emphatically as unfounded, untrue or unjust.
So listen up: Every “thought” you wrote (posted: Dec 24th 1:08PM) is being repudiated by this author, on behalf of pro-lifers.
It is all a matter of understanding language. BTW, 1) it is no concern of yours whether or not I look foolish and 2) all you did the second time around is repeat your “thoughts” of old. Don’t worry….be happy!!
Also, Edtyl, the building is being built so it cannot be used for other purposes (not entirely, anyway). It has “surgical” rooms for mass performance of abortions, and has an incinerator with a smokestack on the back, just like they had at Auschwitz. At least that’s what I understand from those who have seen the blueprints.
Stick the babies in the oven, and up the smokestack they go! Do you realize that in Kansas, people protesting Tiller’s center have the ash of burned babies falling upon them as they march around the block? It’s disgusting. You surely don’t want to associate yourself with these Nazi-like people, do you?
Greg–
Just be glad those tippy-top VP’s don’t have the power to toss us into a camp.
Yet…
Thank you for the clarification that blood money floats…right to the top of the rancid stew.
In fact Greg, I’m the one who posted way (hope my try at italics worked!) back there about not picketing, but being willing to join a prayer vigil out there….
You have officially changed my mind.
BTW–not an easy task…congrats. Too bad I’m stuck out hear on the “left coast” or I would join you tomorrow….I would still be a prayer warrior and not carry a sign…
But I would be there.
Blessings in your effort.
GREG: I commend your tenacity…God bless you!
BETHANY: It is my pleasure to take one by the hand and lead them out of the darkness. However, I do feel some “tugging” on this one, as I make the attempt! Thanks for your encouragement!
BETHANY: Just a moment ago, I read your shpeel on “forgive”. So, we are two lovers of language here. Sorely needed.
To whoever wrote about the “smoke stack”…
I do believe that big mortuaries have these as well for people who want to be cremated. There neighbors will have “ashes” on them as well.
I’ve thunk about this some and am now for-it mainly because the Colorado group prayed diligently about it. There is a multitude of ways to make this into bad PR … like, REALLY BAD PR. but they are still led to it … then, good for you people (my brothers and sisters). As one soul who is now on the front lines of the euthanasia battle, I am more than pleased that this atrocity be carried right into homes (the media sure ain’t doing it.) Oh: if some folks are disturbed by the harshness, I’ll bet that the temple-tax-collectors were more than a little perturbed by a ragging Jesus overturning their money tables.
@Hooves-in-Maw … wonderful, brilliant :) “Liberalism: the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, might be taking responsibility for their actions.”
I do believe that big mortuaries have these as well for people who want to be cremated. There neighbors will have “ashes” on them as well.
Yes, but those people weren’t forced to die by someone else’s will.
BETHANY: Just a moment ago, I read your shpeel on “forgive”. So, we are two lovers of language here. Sorely needed.
I completely agree.
Actually Bethany,
They could have died against their will. You do realize how many murders occur in the US each year correct?
Merry Christmas to you too, jasper! I’m pretty excited. Any special plans for the holiday?
staying home in the morning then going to my brothers house. thanks. hope you enjoy your Christmas.
“Well jasper, maybe you could explain to me how laws will be changed if we alienate and offend the people we need to be on our side.”
shouldn’t they be offended by the crime of abortion and not by people exposing the crime?
When I first saw what abortion really was, I wasn’t offended at the people showing me the pictures, I was offended by abortion itself.
“I’m sure they’d love to listen to our arguments when they think of us as “egocentric, self centered, self absorbed, selfish and megalomaniacal.”
Again, I disagree with your charateriztion of pro-lifers. It’s really the opposite of what you discribed above. And, I really don’t care what they think, I know pro-lifers are wonderful people.
Hooves – Great to hear! Thanks!
Midnite – As Bethany noted, these babies do not “want to be cremated”! And your comeback fell flat — both murder and abortions are crimes in God’s eyes. Both will be punished on judgement day, but our laws don’t yet recognize abortion as murder. I pray they someday will.
Actually Bethany,
They could have died against their will. You do realize how many murders occur in the US each year correct?
Yes, Midnite, of course I’m aware of that.. :-S
But so far, I’m not aware of any other organization which involves killing innocent people first, then cremating them second. Do you?
Most people who are being cremated in mortuaries, if murdered beforehand, were not killed legally, and have had some sort of justice (ie. the murderer is being sought, or has been found, and been given a just penalty for his deeds). This isn’t the case with PP.
Using your analogy about moratoriums is almost the exact same as if someone had said something about the holocaust grave sites, how horrific they were, and your reply was, “Well, I happen to know that other graves have human bodies in them- what makes these graves so much worse?” Do you see what I am saying? Now, I need to ask you to please not take this above analogy to mean that I am saying that you support the holocaust or anything like that. Please do not miss the actual intended message I am trying to get you to see here.
Obviously, the reason the holocaust graves were so much worse were because of the nature of the crimes that were committed (legally) against the Jews, etc- … and the reason that these mentioned crematoriums are so dreadful, is because every single baby who ashes are there, was killed unjustly (and legally) by the hands of others people who felt they were also less worthy of life.
WAA WAA WAA!! I THINK ITS WRONG!! WAA WAA WAA!!
Look you whiners, Enyart and the gang have promoted making a law against protesting outside someone’s home. They promoted such a law around 6 years ago just after I had visited them and went with them to protest outside of an abortionist’s home.
Their request to bring up and vote on such a law was shot down by both Republicans and Democrats because they thought that such a law would not stand because they claimed that this law would be found unconstitutional.
What they did instead was to demand that the protesters keep moving along a path rather than stand still in the cul-de-sac. Of course, this changed nothing really, but at least the Christ-hating liberals felt a little better about it.
Liberalism is a mental disorder.
Here is some evidence from an abortionist that the holiday abortionist home visits have had an effect on the abortion industry as far as recruiting new abortionists goes. I expect the same effect for those contractors and companies that work to build killing centers (and that same positive effect is what we have seen so far in Denver).
READ THIS from the recent LA Times article.
“None of you will be an abortion provider,” he told the students. “You don’t have it in you.”
“Do something else. Fix broken legs,” he often advises. “No reasonable person would do this.”
“Liberalism is a mental disorder”….
I think we have a member of the Savage-Nation among us!!
(I have it on good authority that Hooves is a “Savagette”….)
FYI – that quote from the article was from abortionist Warren Hern who Enyart and friends protest in the Denver area.
“staying home in the morning then going to my brothers house. thanks. hope you enjoy your Christmas.”
I’m off to my grandma’s after presents for dinner. Have a good one!
“shouldn’t they be offended by the crime of abortion and not by people exposing the crime?”
Well I could say, “You big fat stupid idiot, why don’t you listen to my argument? Abortion is murder, what the hell is wrong with you?” Would you listen to me? We have a demonstration of this from zeke. If we want to communicate truths and ideas we need to present them peacefully and honestly.
“When I first saw what abortion really was, I wasn’t offended at the people showing me the pictures, I was offended by abortion itself.”
I’m sure the people showing you pictures were nice about it though, right? Eager? Informative?
Screaming and shouting and interrupting a family get-together really won’t get that job done.
“Again, I disagree with your charateriztion of pro-lifers.”
That was not my characterization. It was a pro-choicer (TR). I find most pro-lifers to be nice and peaceful like the people on this site, but a lot of people have this image of pro-lifers that needs to be shown to be false. A rude act like protesting someone’s private home on Christmas is going to fit right in with their mischaracterization.
“It’s really the opposite of what you discribed above. And, I really don’t care what they think, I know pro-lifers are wonderful people.”
A majority are. That’s why I encourage those I think are breaching on rude to….not be.
It’s like Ann Coulter asking to be taken seriously. I think Radicalism is awesome, but I also think if you have a cause that you are really adament about that involves legislation, a major goal should be winning the hearts and minds of the public. If the people want something, politicians respond.
Wishing and hoping, and declaring it doesn’t matter what other people think of the pro-life image, is idealistic. I’ve talked about this before, how I think that we should be careful so that people don’t get the idea that pro-life philosophy is soley religious, when it’s not. For example, at one March for Life, my college friends were appalled as the speaker started ranting on gay marriage.
When we want our movement to be public, if we want our movement to grow substantially we SHOULD pay attention to how people perceive us. How else are we gonna gain support?
“I’ve thunk about this some and am now for-it mainly because the Colorado group prayed diligently about it. ”
Does that mean I can convince you to change your mind about something, as long as I told you I’ve prayed diligently about it?
Merry Christmas everyone. The Son of God became a little baby to bring salvation to all people — pro-lifers and pro-abortionists alike. We all need God’s grace and mercy. Thanks be to God, Jesus came to save us sinners.
Vlad, I don’t think you’re Satan. I do, however, think that you are a Pharisee.
Posted by: Bethany at December 24, 2007 3:30 PM
Still much better than Satan ;) This is actually turning out to be real fun. While I have criticized actions of some of you I have never called you names. Nice going! Merry Christmas nonetheless!
Bethany:
For the record, no I dont support the Holocaust (FYI). But no, I dont think your accusing me of such either :-)…
But I am simply saying that others that have been cremated might have died against their will as well. The difference here is that they were alive; CNS functioning, breathing on their own, and a beating heart. See where I am going with this?
Horrible things happen to people every day.
_________________________________________________
Greg:
My comeback did not fall flat. I also dont remember anywhere in the bible stating abortion is murder or that it is wrong (yes, I’ve read it once or twice in my life).
But seeing as I dont believe in a God, I follow man’s laws. And unles something happened in the past two hours and Roe got overturned, I **think** abortions are still legal…
“Still much better than Satan ;) This is actually turning out to be real fun. While I have criticized actions of some of you I have never called you names.”
Well Vlad, you did compare us to the Taliban and terror style pro-lifers…..Vlad, how about we move on and think about saving unborn children and not waste our time with petty bickering about who called who, etc?
Merry Christmas…..
“”I’ve thunk about this some and am now for-it mainly because the Colorado group prayed diligently about it. ”
Does that mean I can convince you to change your mind about something, as long as I told you I’ve prayed diligently about it?
Posted by: prettyinpink at December 24, 2007 7:23 PM
————-
No PiP,
It means that the group is taking its marching orders from God and not the press; or, a PR firm. Quite often highly motivated folks can be hammered into quietism for fear of treading on sensibilities. In some scenarios (and this seems one) God acts more like a parent than a spin-doctor.
“Still much better than Satan ;) This is actually turning out to be real fun. While I have criticized actions of some of you I have never called you names
Well, Vlad, your post just served to prove my point…however, I do hope you have a very Merry Christmas today!:)
But I am simply saying that others that have been cremated might have died against their will as well. The difference here is that they were alive; CNS functioning, breathing on their own, and a beating heart. See where I am going with this?
No, I don’t Midnite. Maybe you could clarify for me the difference between human beings and human beings?
By the way, when it was legal to kill owned slaves because they were “only 2/3 persons”, what would your opinion have been on their personhood? Would you have disagreed with the law? After all, they didn’t have the white color or the status that was necessary for them to be “fully persons”, and killing them was perfectly within the law, as long as they were killed by their owners (analogous to the mother “owning” her baby in the womb)…And we all know horrible things happen to people every day anyway…
By the way, did you know that the human brain is not completely finished developing until about the age of 25? I suppose one could argue that I was not fully human until about 2 years ago, and that my three living children are still not fully persons.
Anyway….Merry Christmas!!!
None of us are people….
We’re all just batteries trapped in the Matrix.
Mare Egret Moose!
Oh, and I think we
“None of us are people….
We’re all just batteries trapped in the Matrix.
Mare Egret Moose!”
*gigglefit*
wo xiang ni ye you hen hao de jesus sheng ri!
wo xiang ni ye you hen hao de jesus sheng ri!
Whoa…I think ya got me with that one!
Erin, I woke up with a stomachache today…I hope you didn’t give me salmonella!
Happy Christmas everybody! We got a wii and are definately going to be playing it all day. Hope your day(s) go well!
Any pics of the demonstration at the contractor’s home?
Does anyone know of a website they’d be on?
Any pics of the demonstration at the contractor’s home?
Does anyone know of a website they’d be on?
Posted by: Laura at December 25, 2007 2:57 PM
……………………..
Two clinics were set fire to in Albuquerque last night. Nothing like endangering the lives of fire fighters on such a holiday.
Wow. I shared this post with my pro life aunt today. She shook her head, put her hand on my knee, and asked me to please understand the difference between someone who is TRULY pro LIFE, and the sick, twisted, hate filled extremists who would even consider the idea of spending the most spiritual and special day of the year picketing someone’s home.
agenda > celebrating christmas? “wow. how sad” is all that could be said, from both a pro choicer AND a pro lifer on this day. at least theres some common ground.
Hey Rae – coincidence – Alan Alda’s grandson goes to the same school that my nephew – the one on the right in the above picture – does, and he was there for a play the school put on this past week.
After it was over, my sister introduced herself to Mr. Alda, and she said he was very friendly and complimentary of my nephew’s performance. My sister: “He felt like family after seeing him so much on TV over the years.”
Cheers,
Doug
I’m not comfortable with it, but at least I’m ALIVE to have feelings. And so are you. Not so with the babies this abortionist plans on aborting (and making money on) in that facility. If this right to free speech is trampled on then plan on having the rest of your “free speech” rights taken away in the near future…
Hooves: I
Laura,
I did attend the last of the 3 protests yesterday, in a posh neighborhood where they’re not used to seeing protestors (except for recently). The home was that of the President of Colorado operations for Weitz Construction — the one who basically thumbed his nose at Keith Mason (reported earlier by Jill).
There were about 40 people there, which is amazing considering it was snowing hard and really cold! Someone was taking pictures, but I don’t see them posted anywhere yet.
We actually had some neighbors come by and thank us for what we were doing! They drove by in an expensive SUV, and we all thought it had to be one of the neighbors, since none of us drive anything like that. But they all waved to us as they went by. They walked back to us afterward, and we talked for a while. They were churchgoing people, and said we were doing the right thing. One neighbor said his parents had spoken to Hornaday, who they thought was a “strong Christian” and told him you can’t separate your actions from your beliefs, and he apparently blew them off, too.
TV cameras were supposed to be at the 2nd protest, but they didn’t show up. Probably had to go take pictures of the snow and traffic on Christmas. But the local media is starting to pick this up — two local broadcasts have featured the protests, one did an interview with the leader of the protests (WIll) and their online poll showed about 40-45% of people supported what we are doing! Those polls can be manipulated, to a point, but these were thousands of people responding — very hard to manipulate with numbers like that, when the poll excludes votes from the same IP address, which it did. So that’s a broad section of the public that supports us!
Sounds like you didn’t encounter the hostility that I thought you might. I am very grateful for that!
*meant to address 1:33 post to Greg*
Laura,
I did attend the last of the 3 protests yesterday, in a posh neighborhood where they’re not used to seeing protestors
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, Greg, I hope that one day you will have a family, friends, or a job. That way you’ll be too busy to annoy those that do – especially at Christmas!
Interesting question. I don’t see anything wrong with doing all one can to prevent the murder of innocent people, on any day of the year. (Of course, I’ve been told before that I “know no season”…I don’t think that’s entirely true, but some things do transcend time & place…)
The objections coming from the proabort side are especially interesting, since if it were their hides on the line, they’d want every stopped pulled to stop the redfanged monster in his tracks…and all his accomplices…in the most immediate and just fashion, no matter what time or place it happened to be, just as they want unborn children murdered, regardless of the season, or any other considerations, timely or timeless.
As for the supposed impropriety of picketing someone in the privacy of his own home just because you don’t like his client…HOGWASH. The client is planning to murder innocent children in the privacy of their prenatal homes, and the people being picketed are accomplices to that intended wholescale bloodshed; that is the issue, not whether we find him/her personally likeable. If we knew someone were helping others to invade the privacy of your residence, temporary or permanent, while you were asleep in it, obviously with a view towards hacking you to bits, would you want us to refrain from intervention because it happened to be a holiday? I doubt that.
The snitty remarks about the display of abortion photos showing hostility or indifference to children is also unmitigated, hypocritical bullshchit, especially coming from those who never stop looking for excuses and opportunities to cheer the abortion cartel on in their quest to kill off as many children as possible.
There is a clear difference between gratuitous effrontery (waving gory photos for no other purpose than to gross people out) and confronting a country steeped in the legally shed blood of innocent children, as well as educating abortion-minded women who have been lulled by other aborthodoxy (more bs)about the inhumanity of the babies and the “humanity” of the savage acts of violence that take the lives of thousands these children and many of their mothers as well, every day. Born children can and do “get over” seeing “those pictures”. What no one ever recovers from is BEING “those pictures”. Those “Choice cuts” never heal.
But one can hardly expect that difference to be appreciated by folks who can’t/won’t tell the difference between health care and murder, real choices and coerced submissions, rights and wrongs, schit from schinola, asses from elbows, heads from holes in the ground, etc.
There is a clear difference between gratuitous effrontery (waving gory photos for no other purpose than to gross people out) and confronting a country steeped in the legally shed blood of innocent children, as well as educating abortion-minded women who have been lulled by other aborthodoxy (more bs)about the inhumanity of the babies and the “humanity” of the savage acts of violence that take the lives of thousands these children and many of their mothers as well, every day. Born children can and do “get over” seeing “those pictures”. What no one ever recovers from is BEING “those pictures”. Those “Choice cuts” never heal.
That is no argument. That is just pretending. “Innocent”? What does that mean in the absence of the capacity for guilt? Not much.
“Children”? You can say that, but so what? You can say anything. Not a real argument.
“Aborthodoxy”? Heh heh – you’ve pretty well killed any pretensions to credibility, there. The fact is that for some women with unwanted pregnancies, ending the pregnancies is the best thing.
“Inhumanity” of the “babies.”? Well, those are your words. Actually, the unborn in this argument are human, but that is not the debate. They may be unwanted, and that is what is operative. Human DNA is certainly there.
Despite any and all drama from you, women are better off being free to make their best choice in the matter.
Doug
We agree that the unborn child is human and it has DNA. As for choice, choice isn’t monolithic neither is all choices achieved morally right. Laws exist that limits choice that we humans can do. For example, we don’t have a right to choice murder, rape, or perjury. Now, since choice isn’t an absolute concept to be enacted on 100% of the time, limatations of actions such as abortion can be justified. No unborn baby is unwanted to be me since there is still the possibility for that baby to achieve great accomplishments. How do you know that the child can’t be a great leader? Also, there are many options in today’s technology that if a woman doesn’t want a child, adoption and other choices are available so that child can be allowed to live. The Constitution cites the right to life as an ineliable right. Since abortion is destroying human life, I don’t believe that’s a legitimate choice. The reason is that you’re eliminating the choice that the baby can fully make after conception. Abortion supporters hypocritically claim choice as its justification but deny the choices of the unborn baby should make in its life by destroying that baby.
That is no argument. That is just pretending. “Innocent”? What does that mean in the absence of the capacity for guilt? Not much.
Actually, Doug, that is exactly what “innocent” means.
# free from evil or guilt; “an innocent child”; “the principle that one is innocent until proved guilty”
# lacking intent or capacity to injure; “an innocent prank”
# impeccant: free from sin
# lacking in sophistication or worldliness; “a child’s innocent stare”; “his ingenuous explanation that he would not have burned the church if he had not thought the bishop was in it”
# innocent(p): not knowledgeable about something specified; “American tourists wholly innocent of French”; “a person unacquainted with our customs”
# barren: completely wanting or lacking; “writing barren of insight”; “young recruits destitute of experience”; “a novel devoid of wit and inventiveness”; “a life empty of happiness”; “innocent of literary merit”; “void of understanding”
# a person who lacks knowledge of evil
So it means a lot.
“Children”? You can say that, but so what? You can say anything. Not a real argument.
Yes, Doug, it’s a real argument. He is using real terms which really actually do mean something. He’s not making up definitions. The term “children” absolutely applies here, except for those who would like to change the definitions of words to suit their agenda… Google “definition of child” and see what you find, Doug.
Here, I did it for you…again…
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/child
Timothy, excellent post!
Tim, there is no choice on the part of the unborn – they don’t care. Yes, we don’t know how a person would turn out – might be an Einstein, might be a Stalin. But we do know that not every pregnancy is wanted.
I realize that you “want” pregnancies to continue, but unless you’re the one pregnant then you are far from the primary decision-maker.
The Constitution did not and does not apply to the unborn.
Doug
Bethany, the point with “innocent” is that it’s not that people are saying the unborn are “guilty” of something. Wanted or unwanted, but if somebody is “blaming” the unborn as if they are “not innocent” then that’s just silly – that’s not the argument, really.
Your dictionary definition has the primary meaning being between birth and puberty, and indeed that is the most prevalent deal. And yes, it can mean the unborn, but it does not have to. Dictionaries like that are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Doug
Bethany, the point with “innocent” is that it’s not that people are saying the unborn are “guilty” of something. Wanted or unwanted, but if somebody is “blaming” the unborn as if they are “not innocent” then that’s just silly – that’s not the argument, really.
Well, they are condemning them to death, and for what? The reason we let you know they are innocent, is because we want to remind you they do not deserve the death penalty.
And yes, it can mean the unborn, but it does not have to. Dictionaries like that are descriptive, not prescriptive.
If it’s part of the description of the word, Doug, then it’s not “pretending” if one uses it for it’s obviously intended use.
Doug, Doug, Doug,
The Constitution does apply to the “unborn”. Ask Scott Peterson.
Now, admit you wrong Doug.
Peterson wasn’t convicted because of the Constitution.
Do you feel that the fetal homicide law is unconstitutional, Doug?
Well, they are condemning them to death, and for what? The reason we let you know they are innocent, is because we want to remind you they do not deserve the death penalty.
If pregnancies were being ended due to people saying the unborn are “guilty,” then I’d say you have a point.
……
“And yes, it can mean the unborn, but it does not have to. Dictionaries like that are descriptive, not prescriptive.”
If it’s part of the description of the word, Doug, then it’s not “pretending” if one uses it for it’s obviously intended use.
Bethany, I didn’t say it’s “wrong” to say it. I said it’s no argument. Call the unborn anything, but the argument is still about valuation, etc., not really about terminology.
Doug
Bethany: Do you feel that the fetal homicide law is unconstitutional, Doug?
Nope, the same as for Roe. Fetal homicide laws or not, I don’t see people saying it should be legal to attack a woman with an unwanted pregnancy and harm the baby. Such was not legal in the first place.
Nope, the same as for Roe. Fetal homicide laws or not, I don’t see people saying it should be legal to attack a woman with an unwanted pregnancy and harm the baby. Such was not legal in the first place.
But couldn’t he just be convicted for killing lacy and for destroying what you consider to be her “property” or the equivalent of one of her organs?
Why give the baby justice in this case, and not simply Laci?
If pregnancies were being ended due to people saying the unborn are “guilty,” then I’d say you have a point.
They’re guilty of existing. That is their crime, Doug. That is what they receive the death penalty for.
“Nope, the same as for Roe. Fetal homicide laws or not, I don’t see people saying it should be legal to attack a woman with an unwanted pregnancy and harm the baby. Such was not legal in the first place.”
Bethany: But couldn’t he just be convicted for killing lacy and for destroying what you consider to be her “property” or the equivalent of one of her organs? Why give the baby justice in this case, and not simply Laci?
Sure he could be convicted like that, but special-circumstances clauses have been added to some homicide laws due to enough desire to do so on the part of legislators. It varies state-by-state but that’s the case in CA, right? I don’t think it’s “giving the baby justice” as you see things – the right-to-life would actually have to be attributed for that to be the case – my opinion.
……
“If pregnancies were being ended due to people saying the unborn are “guilty,” then I’d say you have a point.”
They’re guilty of existing. That is their crime, Doug. That is what they receive the death penalty for.
I guess you can say that – really the same as being unwanted.
Jews were “unwanted”.
And the State determined that the State would be the primary decision maker for whether someone was wanted or not…
You’re flippant, Doug, but you’re failing to consider how far-reaching your rhetoric is. Go watch some sci-fi shows that posit about the disasters that can result from individual rights being discarded, and come back… :)
Not at all, Greg. There are people to this day who want Jews to die, Christians to die, Muslims to die, etc. The Birth Standard is still incredibly prevalent the world over.
Whether or not one’s tribe is warring with another, whether or not one is so zealous in their opposition to a given group that they wish death upon them, it still makes a big difference to people whether a baby is born or not, and it also makes a big difference how far along gestation is, to many. This has been the case for thousands and thousands of years.
It’s not “flippant” to note reality, and that while wars come and go – just a fact of human nature – it is also human nature in large measure to see the differences between the born and the unborn, and to consider the pregnant woman as well, in the case of pregnancy.
Doug
There goes Doug, replies to a question about a law, and instantly becomes a lawyer interpeting the law as Doug wants the law to be.
And yes Doug, Life, Liberty, and pursuit of happiness is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, not the basic laws(Constitution) of the USA.
See ya in court Doug, laughing at ya, while you quote law to the judge that unborn babies are not protected by the law.
And Doug, this obssession with the words, “if”, “not”, “then” really doesn’t win a argument. It is self evident that Doug is not capable of not using IF in a declarative statment which ends with Doug then declaring only what Doug does not want to understand.
Doug,
How do you define “birth”?
If your definition is 9 months gestation, then are premature babies not “born” until they grow up a little?
Is it when a baby passes through the birth canal? Then, does that mean Caesarian babies are not born?
What is the actual, physical difference between a baby 5 minutes before she’s born, and 5 minutes after, that defines whether she’s a person or not?
Doug, what is YOUR definition of “birth”? I’m curious to watch you defend whatever definition you imagine.
Sure he could be convicted like that, but special-circumstances clauses have been added to some homicide laws due to enough desire to do so on the part of legislators. It varies state-by-state but that’s the case in CA, right? I don’t think it’s “giving the baby justice” as you see things – the right-to-life would actually have to be attributed for that to be the case – my opinion.
Doug, check out Jill’s newest post.
What are your thoughts? Was the ruling constitutional or unconstitutional? The woman herself, not a third party- not even an abortionist- caused the death of her unborn child, and that woman is behind bars for it. Explain that one away. Explain to me how this ruling wasn’t about the baby.
prettyinpink blathered:
“It’s like Ann Coulter asking to be taken seriously.”
Ann Coulter is taken VERY SERIOUSLY by MILLIONS of people in the USA and in other countries. She is even invited onto news show several times each week so she can share her views and communicate them to an audience that wants to hear from her.
Whose writing and reasoning demands that we take them more seriously? Ann Coulter’s or prettyinpink‘s?
Its a no-brainer!
yllas: There goes Doug, replies to a question about a law, and instantly becomes a lawyer interpeting the law as Doug wants the law to be.
Nonsense. Has nothing to do with it. You were simply wrong about Scott Peterson and the Constitution.
Seems that some folks in the Albuquerque area consider that Banned Parenthood/Planned Barrenhood death mills are unwanted, and that it is therefore OK to destroy them. I’m sure Doug does not agree with that, but I don’t see how he can really forbid or condemn it by his reasoning that because some children are unwanted by some people, it’s OK to destroy them.
There aren’t really any unwanted children, as several million couples are waiting and wanting to adopt the children being flushed down garbage disposals, incinerated in crematoriums, or cannibalized for big black market bucks by the abortion profiteers. And the number of couples seeking to adopt children continues to grow as many women lose their reproductive ability/freedom to post-abortion complications.
Induced abortion isn’t good, let alone best, for anyone. It kills the life of the child; it traumatizes and endangers the health/life of the mother; it emasculates the child’s father of his natural masculine instinct to protect and defend his mate and offspring. It corrupts and perverts the legal and law enforcement profession as well as turning those trained and sworn to heal into paid serial killers. So what’s for any decent person to like?!
Doug, check out Jill’s newest post.
Bethany, sounds to me like it’s consistent with Roe, i.e. in that case the state is seeing it in its interest to protect the unborn life. I imagine there will be considerable argument about it, perhaps an appeal, if possible, etc., but I personally don’t think it’s all that surprising.
……
How do you define “birth”?
Really just “out” as opposed to being in, B.
……
If your definition is 9 months gestation, then are premature babies not “born” until they grow up a little?
Nope, being out is being out.
……
Is it when a baby passes through the birth canal? Then, does that mean Caesarian babies are not born?
No, there too “out” is “out.”
……
What is the actual, physical difference between a baby 5 minutes before she’s born, and 5 minutes after, that defines whether she’s a person or not?
The fact of being outside the body of the woman.
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Doug, what is YOUR definition of “birth”? I’m curious to watch you defend whatever definition you imagine.
I don’t think I really have to “defend” it – you asked me what I think and I’m telling you, and I feel it matches up well with the generally-accepted meaning of “born.”
Birfth is being outside the womab, leaving the body of the woman.
There aren’t really any unwanted children, as several million couples are waiting and wanting to adopt
JT, yeah, there really are – in the US alone there are 150,000+ waiting in state care or foster care for adoption. I’m not saying that abortion is “good” because of that – I leave the good/bad/right/wrong of that to the woman actually involved, but it’s also true that there indeed are unwanted kids.
Doug
Ann Coulter may actually be taken seriously by some people, which is rather a laugh, but the reason she’s on TV is that ratings are the concern, and she’s controversial enough and wacky enough to get some.
Doug, 5:02PM
Its very possible these children began as planned and wanted pregnancies.
Also, I have a big issue with celebrities who fly to third world countries and shop orphanages like they’re flea markets. They could far more easily call their nearest social service agency and find children of every race, age, ethnicity, and gender in desperate need of homes.
White Weitz Christmas
I reported December 23 that the pro-life group Families Against Planned Parenthood in Denver planned to picket homes of Weitz Company officials on Christmas morning. Weitz is the general contractor for PP’s new mega-abortion mill. Word I received befor…
I’ve actually never seen someone try to defend “birth” as the determining moment when an unborn baby acquires the right not to be killed. Usually someone uses viability, or conception — a point of medical development. Not an event in someone’s life.
Doug, you think you’ve come up with a clever, and simple formula to determine whether someone is alive and/or has a right to life. But “birth” is actually one of the most arbitrary definitions for the beginning of life or rights that you can come up with.
What about that 6-month premie who was inside his mother’s womb one moment, and outside the next? Is her life less valuable mere seconds before she’s brought out of the womb? Is it okay to kill that baby, mere seconds before she’s pulled out? Would you do that, Doug?
Do you crush robins’ eggs too? Because they have no value to you? They’re in the way of where you were driving, or wanting to clean out the gutters, and they’re not “born” so it’s okay?
You probably haven’t seen the picture of a baby reaching out of his mother’s womb during an emergency procedure, and grasping the doctor’s finger. Is that birth? Reaching out of the womb? Or are you more clever with your definition than that? Did that baby have any rights, when it was grasping the doctor’s finger? Or could he have killed him?
And that raises the question — if it’s not happened already, I’m sure it could: What if a person is “born” (your definitions) to have surgery, and is then replaced into the mother’s womb to continue development? Is that being “unborn”? And was that person a person, and then not? And then, later, become a person again?
Is there a medical element to your argument? Maybe the level of dependency of the unborn child before and after birth?
These issues aren’t as simple as you try to pretend they are, Doug.
I’ve actually never seen someone try to defend “birth” as the determining moment when an unborn baby acquires the right not to be killed. Usually someone uses viability, or conception — a point of medical development. Not an event in someone’s life.
Greg, I wasn’t “defending” it, just noting that that’s the deal. Bethany asked about the physical difference, and birth or not is it, there.
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Doug, you think you’ve come up with a clever, and simple formula to determine whether someone is alive and/or has a right to life. But “birth” is actually one of the most arbitrary definitions for the beginning of life or rights that you can come up with.
You’re just pretending, Greg. I don’t say that’s what determines “alive” or not. That rights are attributed at birth is not due to me, but rather to the age-old Birth Standard. Like it or not, that’s the way it is. To some extent it’s arbitrary, yes, no argument on that, and I’m also not saying it’s impossible that it’d ever be different.
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What about that 6-month premie who was inside his mother’s womb one moment, and outside the next? Is her life less valuable mere seconds before she’s brought out of the womb? Is it okay to kill that baby, mere seconds before she’s pulled out? Would you do that, Doug?
As I’ve said, out is out, regardless of time of gestation. I think that in general six months is too late for abortions just because the woman doesn’t want to be pregnant. If it were up to me, I’d make the line 24 weeks or possibly even earlier. I’m a guy and it’s not like I’d be pregnant or having abortions, but if I was, I’d certainly favor having earlier abortions versus later, and favor pregnancy prevention over abortion, in the first place.
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Do you crush robins’ eggs too? Because they have no value to you? They’re in the way of where you were driving, or wanting to clean out the gutters, and they’re not “born” so it’s okay?
Certainly not for a long time, but perhaps I did at a younger age – I don’t know.
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You probably haven’t seen the picture of a baby reaching out of his mother’s womb during an emergency procedure, and grasping the doctor’s finger. Is that birth? Reaching out of the womb? Or are you more clever with your definition than that? Did that baby have any rights, when it was grasping the doctor’s finger? Or could he have killed him?
I may have seen that picture – again, don’t know. If you really want to split hairs and get right down to the exact instant of birth, if there is one, then I’d say it’s being halfway out. If you want “clever” definitions I’m sure you can come up with others – there are different ways to look at it. On that specific baby having rights – I don’t know the letter of the law as it applies, there. State law?
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And that raises the question — if it’s not happened already, I’m sure it could: What if a person is “born” (your definitions) to have surgery, and is then replaced into the mother’s womb to continue development? Is that being “unborn”? And was that person a person, and then not? And then, later, become a person again?
Good question. I don’t know of that occurring nor of the question coming up, but if anything I’d say that yes, it’s like again being unborn. Rights attributed outside the womb would not necessarily apply once back in the womb.
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Is there a medical element to your argument? Maybe the level of dependency of the unborn child before and after birth?
Not really a “medical” element, other than the physical/medical/biological reality. “Level of dependency” – yes, I think that applies. Late enough in gestation and the baby can be delivered and often live, so the situation is different at that time than earlier in gestation when there is no option that allows the pregnancy to be ended while the baby lives. Lots to think about in inducing delivery early, but it is possible. Before/after birth isn’t the end-all of it for me personally. I do see more and more of a “baby” as gestation goes along, and the appearance of sentience, personality, etc., – things that are a part of personhood, again IMO.
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These issues aren’t as simple as you try to pretend they are, Doug.
Some of your statements are dishonest, and some of them are good. I’m not the one who is pretending here.
The number of “unwanted children” (just because some people don’t want you doesn’t make you altogether unwanted) you cite is still but a small fraction of the babies killed in abortion mills, and an even smaller fraction of the number of couples seeking adoption. I know a couple with several foster children who are trying to adopt those children; according to them, it’s quite a process and some of the hoops along the way are pretty small; but they’re persevering for the sake of the children involved.
I expect that we’re all unwanted by someone, somewhere, sometime; that does not, to me, mean that no one wants any of us, or that someone’s rejection is a justification for murder.
jt,
An excellent post. I have to wonder though why after 34 years of legal abortion there are still “unwanted” children. I thought we would have only wanted children once abortion was legal.
You’re right, we are all “unwanted” by someone at sometime in our lives. Also, how many people have we not wanted in our lives?
JT, by far, the most primary wanted or unwanted is on the part of the pregnant woman or the couple, in the case of pregnancy. The point with all the kids waiting for adoption is that there is no “shortage” as far as being created by legal abortion. Even aside from that, a pregnant woman has no obligation to provide a baby for somebody else.
Abortion is not “murder,” of course, but you are right that adoption can be a lengthy and difficult deal.
Doug
Mary, as long as there are kids there will be some cases of abuse and some kids in orphanages and foster care.
Legal abortion has meant far less abused kids and unwanted kids, but as long as there are kids….
Doug
Yea, Yea, Yea, Doug.
You should have defended Peterson and had those two homicide charges reduced to one homicide charge. Try your if, then, not, logic stick on a judge, Doug. Your pirate eye patch is restricting your mind again Doug.
IF a fetus is not born Judge, THEN only one charge of homicide is applicable Judge, and this law, charging my fellow narcissist Scott Peterson, is NOT in the Constitution, Judge.
A muffled laugh was heard in the courtroom.
Doug,
Some studies please to back your claim.
I never said that a pregnant woman had an obligation to provide a baby for someone else. She does have a natural instinct, if she is healthy, and should have an obligation, to protect her child from harm and thus take responsibility for her actions. Whether that means keeping and raising the child herself or placing the child for adoption depends on her particular circumstances; but the point would be to protect the health and life of both the mother and child. Providing an adoptive couple with the blessing of a much wanted child would just be an added bonus for the child and the couple; it can also give the birth mother more of a fresh start on life (including reproductive life) than an abortion. Separation grief is a natural part of both abortion and adoption; but in the case of adoption, it is not compounded by the violation of the mother’s maternity in being party to the murder (that would be the premeditated, deliberate taking of innocent human life) of her own child, and the existential guilt that so many women find so overwhelming that they often destroy themselves trying to medicate or suppress that pain. (Like you care.)
Even in the case of actual rape, the child is not the perpetrator, and should not be executed any more than the woman; the woman’s health is still arguably more in jeopardy if she has the child killed than if she gives him/her birth; and two wrongs do not make a right.
Pregnancy from rape isn’t all that frequent, and accounts for only about 1% of abortions. Women who have been thus impregnated and chosen life have testified that giving their children life helped them heal from the violation and trauma of the rape, whereas women who have conceived “rape babies” and submitted them to the abortionist’s knife/vacuum, etc. have attested that they found the abortion to be a worse violation than the rape; thus their trauma and violation are compounded. Ironic, isn’t it?
Not one abortion for rape/incest has ever unraped/unmolested the victim.
Oh, and I never will go along with your notion that unwantedness is a just cause for murder, regardless of the stage of development of the victim, or his/her relationship to the perpetrator. Neither will any other sane person of conscience who wants to build a compassionate, just, and optimally free society.
Cheers!
“Mary, as long as there are kids there will be some cases of abuse and some kids in orphanages and foster care.
Legal abortion has meant far less abused kids and unwanted kids, but as long as there are kids…”
Doug, Some studies please to back your claim.
Mary, how ’bout just thinking about it? 45 million abortions? 46? 50? Within all those kids that would have resulted from there being no legal abortion – obviously tens of millions – there would have been many, many who would have been abused.
Doug
yllas: You should have defended Peterson and had those two homicide charges
No, and I’ve never said anything to that effect.
You were just wrong about that case and the Constitution, that’s all. No biggie.
Doug
JT: the woman’s health is still arguably more in jeopardy if she has the child killed than if she gives him/her birth; and two wrongs do not make a right.
Aside from the fact that “child” certainly does not necessarily apply, women are much, much more at risk from continuing pregnancies and giving birth versus having aboritions, especially early-term abortions.
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Pregnancy from rape isn’t all that frequent, and accounts for only about 1% of abortions. Women who have been thus impregnated and chosen life have testified that giving their children life helped them heal from the violation and trauma of the rape, whereas women who have conceived “rape babies” and submitted them to the abortionist’s knife/vacuum, etc. have attested that they found the abortion to be a worse violation than the rape; thus their trauma and violation are compounded. Ironic, isn’t it?
Well, nobody is saying that zero abortions will be regretted. Of course some will be, the same as some women regret not having abortions. It’s no reason to take away the legal freedom to choose.
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Oh, and I never will go along with your notion that unwantedness is a just cause for murder, regardless of the stage of development of the victim, or his/her relationship to the perpetrator. Neither will any other sane person of conscience who wants to build a compassionate, just, and optimally free society.
If you see a murder, call the cops. “Just cause” is what we are aguing about, and I realize that you disagree with me. But “unwantedness” is often a fact, regardless of what you or I think. Not every pregnancy is wanted, and in the main that is why women have abortions.
Doug