Suicide diary
Living is hell for me. I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum. I told everyone I didn’t want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies – they need me, no one else does.
So read the suicide note Emma Beck left in February 2007, the night before her 31st birthday when she hanged herself in her UK home, according to the Daily Mail.
My guess is this was near the date her twins would have been born, had she not aborted them in September, 2006.
Emma’s live-in rejected his offspring. When she met with her soon-to-be-abortionist, the pre-abort counselor was on vacation, so he gave her the number for a call-in “pregnancy counselling service.” Glad to read there’s an inquest at least. That wouldn’t happen in the U.S.
Pro-aborts acknowledge post-partum depression but say post-abortion depression is nonsense.
[Portrait is by John Millais, 1850, Ophelia drowning in a river (click to enlarge); HT: LifeNews.com;
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
If she really felt sorry she could have adopted a child who needed a good home and given them the love desperately needed.
Jess:
That’s so not the point. She killed her own children. She felt guilty and wanted to be with them.
“Officials went ahead with the abortion even though she said beforehand that she had second thoughts.”
Gee, I thought this type of thing never happened. According to TR, this would be one gigantic huge lie. No doctor would ever go ahead with an abortion against a women’s desire not to have one. Sounds to me like they made the decsion for her.
Any doctor who really cared about the well-being of this woman would have not proceeded with the abortion and given her more time to seek counseling.
Do you acknowledge that she was in great pain over the killing of her babies? Do you read the anguish in her words? Why so flippant, Jess?
“Gee, I thought this type of thing never happened. ”
It should never happen.
Like some doctors mess up during births. It shouldn’t happen but you’re not going to ban giving birth.
She chose to have an abortion, and she chose to take her own life.
Are the 900+ KoolAde drinkers at Jonestown and the suicide deaths at Waco a good enough reason to outlaw Christianity?
Are all of the suicides over failed marriages enough reason to outlaw marriage?
If she really felt sorry she could have adopted a child who needed a good home and given them the love desperately needed.
Do you say this type of thing just to get a reaction out of people? I mean, really…why must you be so insensitive sometimes?
Are the 900+ KoolAde drinkers at Jonestown and the suicide deaths at Waco a good enough reason to outlaw Christianity?
Those weren’t Christianity, they were cults.
Are all of the suicides over failed marriages enough reason to outlaw marriage?
That’s not analogous, Laura. The abortion was “successful”. In order for your analogy to work, you would have to say, “Are all of those suicides over successful marriages enough reason to outlaw marriage”, and your whole argument falls apart.
If she really felt sorry she could have adopted a child who needed a good home and given them the love desperately needed.
Jess, I must come back to your comment. Suppose your father died. And you were desperately miserable without him, and you wrote a suicide note explaining your feelings about missing your father and how much you wished you could see him again, then you killed yourself.
Would you expect someone to say in response to that, “Well, if she really had felt sad about him, she would have gone to work in nursing care, to take care of some other elderly man who desperately needed her help.” ??
“Emma had always been extremely vulnerable, but unfortunately always refused the help that was offered to her. She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
Does anyone wish to attempt to assert that carrying a pregnancy to term would have somehow magically cured this women of her emotional instability?
Are you speaking from experience, Sally?
Sally, do you see a problem with not allowing the woman the choice to opt out of the abortion? It was clear that she did NOT want the abortion, and she had second thoughts, and yet the abortion happened. What are your thoughts on that?
Abortion proponents desperately want to be considered “pro-choice“, but they give themselves away every time that a story, like this, which is posted about a girl who is coerced/forced into an abortion against her wil. They almost immediately come to the defense of the coercion/force of abortion, every time.
Bethany –
I agree. It seems that the PC’ers are trying desperately to find blame in the woman. Instead of blaming the father of the child for abandoning her. Instead of blaming the abortionist for not listening to her. etc…. All they have is to blame the woman because she couldn’t take the depression anymore.
Sally –
“Does anyone wish to attempt to assert that carrying a pregnancy to term would have somehow magically cured this women of her emotional instability?”
Take it from someone who is clinically depressed – yes the pregnancy would have helped. She wouldn’t have any quilt would she? She wouldn’t be thinking of babies that she terminated would she? She wouldn’t be wondering what the baby looked like would she? Most women seek help after giving birth, many women don’t seek help after an abortion because people tell them they are not suppose to regret it. OB/GYN’s and their nurses are trained to look for signs of depression. My OB/GYN had me on Welbutrin before I was discharged from the hospital after my daughter was born. He asked me about my depression everytime I went in for checkups. Since an abortionist only sees the woman once after the abortion – he/she would never even know if there was an emotional problem. But the OB/GYN sees you on a regular basis to make sure everything is okay.
Like some doctors mess up during births. It shouldn’t happen but you’re not going to ban giving birth.
Posted by: Jess at February 22, 2008 5:43 PM
Jess,
Women who go into the delivery room have pretty much already made up there mind that the birth is going to happen. There is no stopping it.
This woman was clearly in no mental frame of mind to continue with an abortion she had second thoughts about. She stated she had second thoughts, the doctors knew she had second thoughts and should have not proceeded.
Slight thread-jacking….
Pro-abortion forces in Maryland are trying to pass a law that would effectively shut down CPCs in that state. You can read more about it here:
http://redmaryland.blogspot.com/2008/02/there-are-two-sides-to-pro-choice.html
CPCs give women like Emma clear & real choices. They allow women in crisis pregnancies to choose to keep their babies if that’s what they wish.
For those sad cases when a post-abortive woman suffers emotional pain as a result of her choice (as Emma did), a CPC is often the only place where she can get counseling and help.
Maryland NARAL and their pro-abortion allies want to change that. They want to take away women’s choices. They want to herd women like cattle into their slaughterhouses. Please don’t let them get away with it. Pray! If you happen to live in Maryland, call your representatives. Then pray some more!
Sally, do you see a problem with not allowing the woman the choice to opt out of the abortion? It was clear that she did NOT want the abortion, and she had second thoughts, and yet the abortion happened. What are your thoughts on that?
Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 7:24 PM
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I think that the poor woman was incapable of being happy without the help she refused to take. I believe this woman would have committed suicide if she had never been pregnant, gestated, miscarried as well as aborting.
From the article it is clear that she had difficulty making any decision. That she refused any kind of emotional help says to me that she had made up her mind to die at some point. Apparently the eve of her birthday was the day.
Her case has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with depression.
Sally –
“Does anyone wish to attempt to assert that carrying a pregnancy to term would have somehow magically cured this women of her emotional instability?”
Take it from someone who is clinically depressed – yes the pregnancy would have helped. She wouldn’t have any quilt would she? She wouldn’t be thinking of babies that she terminated would she? She wouldn’t be wondering what the baby looked like would she? Most women seek help after giving birth, many women don’t seek help after an abortion because people tell them they are not suppose to regret it. OB/GYN’s and their nurses are trained to look for signs of depression. My OB/GYN had me on Welbutrin before I was discharged from the hospital after my daughter was born. He asked me about my depression everytime I went in for checkups. Since an abortionist only sees the woman once after the abortion – he/she would never even know if there was an emotional problem. But the OB/GYN sees you on a regular basis to make sure everything is okay.
Posted by: valerie at February 22, 2008 8:03 PM
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Did you read the article? The woman had a history of depression and refused help for it. Getting pregnant obviously didn’t cure it any more than aborting did. Perhaps the idea of being forced to get help for her depression was the reason she aborted. Impossible to say now isn’t it?
Her problems quite obviously did not start after her abortion.
I think that the poor woman was incapable of being happy without the help she refused to take. I believe this woman would have committed suicide if she had never been pregnant, gestated, miscarried as well as aborting.
From the article it is clear that she had difficulty making any decision. That she refused any kind of emotional help says to me that she had made up her mind to die at some point. Apparently the eve of her birthday was the day.
Her case has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with depression.
And you managed to completely ignore my question.
Her case has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with depression.
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 8:15 PM
Sally,
You must have missed this part of the story….read on…..
“Emma Beck, 30, left a note saying: “Living is hell for me. I should never have had an abortion.
“I see now I would have been a good mum. I told everyone I didn’t want to do it, even at the hospital.”
Her problems quite obviously did not start after her abortion.
Oh yeah…that’s why her suicide note talked about EVERYTHING BUT abortion.
@@
I think that the poor woman was incapable of being happy without the help she refused to take. I believe this woman would have committed suicide if she had never been pregnant, gestated, miscarried as well as aborting.
So Sally, a woman should be denied her free “choice” if she is has depression?
Sally –
“Did you read the article? The woman had a history of depression and refused help for it. ”
Did you read my post? I also have a history of depression and anxiety. Having children changes the way you look at life, even in a severly depressed state.
“Getting pregnant obviously didn’t cure it any more than aborting did. Perhaps the idea of being forced to get help for her depression was the reason she aborted.”
I didn’t say getting pregnant was a miracle cure. I said being pregnant and giving birth would have helped. I read where she was ‘forced’ to get an abortion but I don’t see where it said she was going to be ‘forced’ to get help for her depression because of being pregnant. or did I miss that part? (I did read it quickly)
I think that the poor woman was incapable of being happy without the help she refused to take. I believe this woman would have committed suicide if she had never been pregnant, gestated, miscarried as well as aborting.
From the article it is clear that she had difficulty making any decision. That she refused any kind of emotional help says to me that she had made up her mind to die at some point. Apparently the eve of her birthday was the day.
Her case has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with depression.
And you managed to completely ignore my question.
Posted by: Bethany at February 22, 2008 8:22 PM
……………………………
Your question was based on a editorial conclusion insinuated by the writer of the article. The woman made 3 visits to clinics. She obviously chose to abort the 3rd time. She walked in and stuck around for the procedure. She was not forced. Anecdotal third hand accounts of how she supposedly changed her mind are foolish in the face of the fact that she could have simply walked out. Again. Does that answer your question?
Her case has nothing to do with abortion and everything to do with depression.
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 8:15 PM
Sally,
You must have missed this part of the story….read on…..
“Emma Beck, 30, left a note saying: “Living is hell for me. I should never have had an abortion.
“I see now I would have been a good mum. I told everyone I didn’t want to do it, even at the hospital.”
Posted by: Sandy at February 22, 2008 8:22 PM
………………………………..
You skipped the part about no one needing her. Clinically depressed women that refuse help do not make good mums.
Anecdotal third hand accounts of how she supposedly changed her mind are foolish in the face of the fact that she could have simply walked out. Again. Does that answer your question?
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 8:35 PM
Just as foolish are anecdotal accounts that the doctors stated on how they tried to help her.
They obviously didn’t. How do you know these killers didn’t give her some meds to knock her out and procedd without her consent.
If they were true medical professionals, they would have been all over the fact that she was not in a clear state of mind to make such a life changing decision and would have not proceeded with the procedure.
You skipped the part about no one needing her. Clinically depressed women that refuse help do not make good mums.
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 8:38 PM
That’s not your choice to make. Pro-choicer.
How sad…that poor woman.
but say post-abortion depression is nonsense.
Nope, some women do indeed have some post-traumatic stress. Nobody says that zero women will have it.
Bethany: Abortion proponents desperately want to be considered “pro-choice”, but they give themselves away every time that a story, like this, which is posted about a girl who is coerced/forced into an abortion against her wil.
No, Pro-Choicers are not for the woman being coerced, either way.
Sally,
Where in the article does it say she had a history of depression.
She was thrilled to be pregnant with twins but did not receive the support from her common-law husband, who according to the inquest “reacted badly to the news”.
If ever there was a woman in need of support and guidance it was poor Emma.
Once again, we have a situation of a partner who does not support the woman in the pregnancy. More and more studies are indicating that choice is indeed no choice at all.
It is quite possible that she felt compelled to go through with the abortion – in her mother’s words “… she was going through with the abortion because Ben did not want the twins….”
but say post-abortion depression is nonsense.
Nope, some women do indeed have some post-traumatic stress. Nobody says that zero women will have it.
You kind of just proved her point by calling it post-traumatic stress and not post abortion depression.
No, Pro-Choicers are not for the woman being coerced, either way.
Then I would suppose that you would not consider Sally to be pro-choice then, would you, Doug?
If she was having second thoughts, why did she go to the clinic?
“No, Pro-Choicers are not for the woman being coerced, either way.”
Then I would suppose that you would not consider Sally to be pro-choice then, would you, Doug?
Bethany, does Sally want the woman to be coerced, one way or the other?
I think at the very least that if she was saying she didn’t want to do it as she was quoted in saying…they should have sent her away to think more about it. It just seems irresponsible to hear this woman saying she doesn’t want to do this and not give her more time to think about it.
but say post-abortion depression is nonsense.
“Nope, some women do indeed have some post-traumatic stress. Nobody says that zero women will have it.”
Bethany: You kind of just proved her point by calling it post-traumatic stress and not post abortion depression.
Nope, not at all. Can it be “after abortion? Can women have some trauma from having an abortion. Well sure. To claim that somebody or some group says that depression post-abortion is “nonsense,” is false, unless the entity is actually saying it doesn’t happen.
Heck, if somebody or some group says it doesn’t happen/never happens, etc., I’ll argue with them as strongly as anybody.
Sally,
Where in the article does it say she had a history of depression.
She was thrilled to be pregnant with twins but did not receive the support from her common-law husband, who according to the inquest “reacted badly to the news”.
If ever there was a woman in need of support and guidance it was poor Emma.
Once again, we have a situation of a partner who does not support the woman in the pregnancy. More and more studies are indicating that choice is indeed no choice at all.
It is quite possible that she felt compelled to go through with the abortion – in her mother’s words “… she was going through with the abortion because Ben did not want the twins….”
Posted by: Patricia at February 22, 2008 9:27 PM
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“Emma had always been extremely vulnerable, but unfortunately always refused the help that was offered to her. She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
What part of long history and always refused help do you not understand?
The article is great pile of speculative rubbish. Read the authors article on why 34 is the best age for women to have babies. @@
Beth Hale is in no danger of winning a pulitzer.
This is off-topic but here is the best article I’ve read yet about abortion:
http://www.westword.com/1997-02-13/news/the-fight-of-their-lives/1
Money quote:
The classic problem of democracy is that it grants great liberty to those who hate freedom. The anti-abortion movement, and especially its appropriation of legitimate religious expression for sinister and basically seditious, terrorist purposes, is testing our commitment to free speech to the limits. In fact, the use of free speech and freedom of religion by anti-abortion demagogues is dangerous to the lives and liberty of many peaceful U.S. citizens.
There is no deterrence at present for anti-abortion demonstrators since they do not respect either civil or criminal laws or basic assumptions of Western culture. There being no deterrence, civil authorities must recognize that the only protection at this point is self-defense, and many of us are prepared to shoot back. This is a prescription for civil war, which is what is happening, except that one side is still holding its fire.
From http://www.drhern.com/jdrpt195.htm
A reminder of why the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances was so necessary.
We sow what we reap.
Sow death and reap death, sow life and reap life.
God is not mocked.
God will require a reckoning for all the innocent blood that was shed as a result of the demonically inspired legalization of abortion in our country in 1973.
SoMG:
You are extremely foolish and no government will protect you against the righteous judgement of God.
As the Civil War was a reckoning for all the blood that was shed as a result of slavery, so to He will require a reckoning for the shedding of the innocent blood of 50,000,000 unborn babies.
Doug,
While YOU may believe that some women suffer after abortion, Sally, TR, Laura and others have shown time and again that they don’t believe it exists. They always make excuses and try to say that the women were messed up before hand.
If a woman was suffering from depression, then got raped, would you say that all of her feelings after the rape were invalid, because they could be coming from her previous “depression”?
When Carla came on here and said that she regretted her abortion, these three women were all over her. Claimed it was “her fault”. They’ve said that the only reason women feel regret is because “we” make them feel guilty. It’s never just a clear cut case of women realizing that they have made a bad choice. And the consequences took them by surprise.
Don’t you see that it is a threat to their “bubble” world to admit that women can go into an abortion clinic, have an abortion willingly, and then realize that they made a terrible mistake?
They (The Unholy Three) can’t allow that to be true. It confounds them. Just as women like Erin, confound us. It doesn’t fit into our view, that some women can have absolutely no guilty feelings after killing their own child. And it doesn’t fit into their view, that some women can have guilty feelings for killing a “blob of cells”.
So they deny Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome caused by abortion, and we hold that most women who have had abortions will one day face the truth of what they have done and the guilt will ooze out of their pores.
We are both right and we are both wrong. It seems that some women, actually don’t feel guilt (how this is possible, I don’t know…perhaps they have a wall up allowing them to continue the delusion that it wasn’t a real child) and some women are overcome by guilt.
It is a rare, rare individual like SoMG that truly understands it is a child in the womb, a full human being, and still has no guilt over killing it.
But I think most women (and men) fall into one of two categories. Those that see the unborn as fully human persons, and those that believe, like you, that they are only human cells, not persons.
The thought that most women who have abortions are like SoMG, believing that the unborn are fully human persons, but can still be killed, would put me over the edge. I might have to join Ophelia!
Just talked to my friend yesterday that volunteers in a CPC. She was on the phone with a friend of a 16 year old in an abortion mill, while the 16 year olds boyfriend texted her to LEAVE. She did. Praise God. Now the mill keeps calling her to say they think she made a rash decision to NOT abort….
I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
Carla,
I wish she’d document/tape those calls!
Harrassment?! They do want their money though I suppose!!
Carla,
Years ago, a friend of mine had a younger sister who was close to viability when she went into a mill.
(she was aborting because she started dating the college football hero who was being recruited into the pros. Heaven forbid that a child could get in the way of that. Her baby was her x-boyfriends) Anyways, she left the clinic unsure of what to do and they kept making sales calls to her home,telling her she better get in there and get the job done before it’s too late.
Unfortunately, she choose abortion. Her boyfriend never made it into the pros afterall.
I don’t know if they ever wound up together, but a baby was murdered all in the name of selfishness and foolishness.
***********************8
And BTW Doug, before you come across like the “expert” on pro-choice issues, tell me this,
What documented books have you ever read detailing the abortion industry??
Lime Five would be excellent
Blood Money would be excellent
Read these two books and then come back to this forum and tell everyone that the pro-choice movement is not for coercion.
There have been many testimonies from previous abortion workers who stated their jobs were to make sure that the woman never left the clinic.
They lied all the time to get women to abort. They were trained to play on women’s emotions so they would concede. These clinics use and abuse women for their own pathetic profits.
We live in the age of Medea. For all of you that are familiar with the classics.
Sandy,
What a tragic story. Well, they all are really.
Just talked to my friend yesterday that volunteers in a CPC. She was on the phone with a friend of a 16 year old in an abortion mill, while the 16 year olds boyfriend texted her to LEAVE. She did. Praise God. Now the mill keeps calling her to say they think she made a rash decision to NOT abort….
I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised.
Carla,
Good story.
I wonder why it’s such a “rash” decision to not abort..I thought they would be happy since it was her CHOICE to leave. Hmmm…so much for choice..again.
Carla,
You would also think the clinic would congratulate her for choosing life. You know how they are always saying they want to bring the abortion numbers down etc….
“Anyways, she left the clinic unsure of what to do and they kept making sales calls to her home,telling her she better get in there and get the job done before it’s too late.”
bums.
I think at the very least that if she was saying she didn’t want to do it as she was quoted in saying…they should have sent her away to think more about it. It just seems irresponsible to hear this woman saying she doesn’t want to do this and not give her more time to think about it.
I very much agree, Elizabeth. You’d think that even just from a cover-your-butt standpoint, they would quickly turn away a woman who expressed ambivalence several times. To do anything else seems negligent even without getting into issues of actual concern for the well-being of the woman.
If she really felt sorry she could have adopted a child who needed a good home and given them the love desperately needed.
Posted by: Jess at February 22, 2008 5:19 PM
If all the the depressed people in the world would just get off their butts and do something, their depression would just go away.
I am being sarcastic.
It is so ridiculous to act like grief and depression have easy fixes.
If you think back to a time when you were grieving, could you have just got up and pretended nothing was bothering you and just gone on with everything?
How about rape victims, shall we just tell them to do some charity work and they will feel better soon?
When will
Abortion mills peddle only one choice. DEATH. How is it choice, if they only offer one?
I need a nap.
I very much agree, Elizabeth. You’d think that even just from a cover-your-butt standpoint, they would quickly turn away a woman who expressed ambivalence several times. To do anything else seems negligent even without getting into issues of actual concern for the well-being of the woman.
Posted by: Alexandra at February 23, 2008 10:57 AM
Check out
http://abortionclinicdays.blogs.com/
Read what the counselors tell the women. You will see in some of the posts how they convince the women who are ambivalent that they should abort. Hal posted another site on which women express grief over abortions. Mostly they point to how no one loves or supports these women. The men in their lives don’t care about them nor do their families. It is really heart breaking. It makes me wish I could hug them and tell them that they are so special and that there really are people who care even if their familes don’t. It is really hard to read though.
This is so so sad. The reactions (seriously, Jess, that was pretty insensitive) here have surprised me quite a bit. Even if she has had previous depression why wasn’t it considered that it would be the breaking point of her psyche- killing her child! How could this have occurred, even when she expressed that she wasn’t sure about it? How could convincing her to kill her own child help at all? Make her problems magically go away?
Sympathies to her family. Suicide is so tragic.
Bethany, does Sally want the woman to be coerced, one way or the other?
Did you even read her posts? Obviously, she thinks that women who are depressed should NOT have children! She thinks that what happened to that woman was acceptable. That it didn’t matter if she had second thoughts. That the coercion was acceptable because she has a history of depression.
So is she pro-choice, Doug? Answer directly.
So is she pro-choice, Doug? Answer directly.
Posted by: Bethany at February 23, 2008 12:56 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, she is pro-choice.
She doesn’t think depressed women should have children just as I believe crack-whores shouldn’t have children, but we leave that decision to the woman carrying that pregnancy.
Yes, she is pro-choice.
She doesn’t think depressed women should have children just as I believe crack-whores shouldn’t have children, but we leave that decision to the woman carrying that pregnancy.
Really? Then why does she keep defending the coercion of this poor woman who obviously did NOT want abortion?
Laura, at the very least, she could say, “Yes, I think if the woman was coerced into an abortion she didn’t want, that was despicable and wrong, and I don’t support that at all.” THEN she could have gone on to make any other point she wanted to make.
So FF and Doug are one and the same?!
POST-ABORTION COUNSELING:
Project Rachel is the name of the Catholic Church’s healing ministry to those who have been involved in abortion. Its name comes from Scripture:
In Ramah is heard the sound of moaning,
of bitter weeping!
Rachel mourns her children,
she refuses to be consoled
because her children are no more.
Thus says the LORD:
Cease your cries of mourning,
wipe the tears from your eyes.
The sorrow you have shown shall have its reward…
There is hope for your future.
Jeremiah 31:15-17
Project Rachel operates as a network of professional counselors and priests, all trained to provide one-on-one spiritual and psychological care for those who are suffering because of an abortion. Although most dioceses use the name Project Rachel, some programs are named differently. In addition to individualized counseling, some programs include support groups and retreats. Founded in 1984 by Victoria Thorn in Milwaukee, today Project Rachel programs can be found in 140 Catholic dioceses in the United States, as well as in dioceses in other countries.
A single phone call to a Project Rachel program puts you in touch with those who can help. Also, the National Office of Post-Abortion Reconciliation and Healing (NOPARH) sponsors a nation-wide referral service for those seeking help after abortion. For a referral contact NOPARH at 800-5WE-CARE, or access its website at http://www.noparh.org.
Moderators: I have a post on que. Thanks!
Really? Then why does she keep defending the coercion of this poor woman who obviously did NOT want abortion?
Posted by: Bethany at February 23, 2008 2:10 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope, she wanted that abortion.
She traveled to the venue, plunked down her money, and jumped up on that table. Nobody forced her.
“Nope, she wanted that abortion.
She traveled to the venue, plunked down her money, and jumped up on that table. Nobody forced her.”
Pure Evil.
Laura, if she wanted the abortion, why did she tell the people at the hospital that she did not want the abortion? Why did she tell her family she did not want the abortion? And why did she kill herself, with the SOLE reason being about the abortion? You guys are so willfully ignorant it’s sad.
“I told everyone I didn’t want to do it, even at the hospital.”
Nobody forced her.
I didn’t say “force”, Laura. If you had a little bit better comprehension you would have noticed the word I chose was “coerced”.
Do you understand the subtile differences between those words?
You probably also believe there are no coerced abortions in China. @@
FF,
So I guess that telling everyone “no” she really didn’t want the abortion, including medical staff at the hospital would mean that she really wanted the abortion.
Just like a woman who says “no” to a man and gets date raped really wanted to be raped. I mean she went on the date, sat on his couch or rode in his car.
I guess that means that every woman who gets date raped asked for it, and they wanted it. They traveled to his venue, plopped up on the bed, floor, car seat.
Nobody really forced her.
So let’s all start calling women liars who say they have been date raped cuz we all know they really wanted to do it.
She missed one hospital appointment and cancelled another before finally seeing a doctor at Treliske hospital in Truro, Cornwall.
But the counsellor at the unplanned pregnancy clinic was on holiday, so the doctor gave her the number of a “telephone pregnancy counselling service”.
Eight days later, in September 2006, the same doctor performed the termination.
I don’t know. It sounds to me like she was going back and forth with the idea of aborting. She wanted to, wasn’t sure, didn’t want to, wanted to again, etc. Did she call the preganancy counseling service? Either way, I agree with FF that Emma, on that day, did want the abortion, and paid for it. Emma needed to take responsibility for her actions. If she were depressed and regretted it afterwards, she should have sought help. It just seemed to me that she wallowed around in her pity but didn’t go out and seek help, before or after the abortion, that she should have.
Even if she were to tell everyone that she didn’t want to do it, the hospital probably said, “yeah right, you’re here, arn’t you?” I mean, come on, if she didn’t want an abortion, she wouldn’t have traveled the distance to the hospital to get one.
This is such a sad and tragic story, though. It begs the question of: should abortionists have to screen their patients for psychiatric issues before performing an abortion? And, if so, does the woman have to be “well” before proceeding with the abortion?
Who is actually responsible for the mental state of an individual before and after an abortion?
This is such a sad and tragic story, though. It begs the question of: should abortionists have to screen their patients for psychiatric issues before performing an abortion? And, if so, does the woman have to be “well” before proceeding with the abortion?
Yes, of course it does. The medical staff took advantage of this woman. the PCers are always saying how this decision is so difficult and tragic. Why would you put a woman who is obviously not of sound mind in a position to make such a live changing decision to kill her children.
Psychological coercion
In psychological coercion, the threatened injury regards the victim?s relationships with other people. The most obvious example is blackmail, where the threat consists of the dissemination of damaging information. But many other cases are possible, including purposeful threats of rejection from or disapproval by a peers group, or even mere anger or displeasure by a loved one.\
“She had recently split up with her boyfriend, identified only as Ben, who was said to have “reacted badly” to her pregnancy.”
Read between the lines, people.
Just like a woman who says “no” to a man and gets date raped really wanted to be raped. I mean she went on the date, sat on his couch or rode in his car.
EXCELLENT point!
(by the way, I am going to email you back, haven’t had a chance to today…I keep hopping on and off the computer lol )
@Bethany: I have some information about prolapsed uterus (what happened to my mom after I was born) if you’d like it.
Ari-chan, I would like to see that if you can send it to my email! Thanks!
So let’s all start calling women liars who say they have been date raped cuz we all know they really wanted to do it.
Well, that’s not really an accurate comparison, because going on a date or sitting on a bed does not mean consenting to sex, whereas making an appointment and signing on the dotted line pretty much DOES mean consenting to abortion. It’s not like you go in for a routine ultrasound and they abort your baby against your will. The issue isn’t consent, it’s informed consent or ability to consent. The question isn’t did she make this decision, it’s did she make this decision of her own volition and with a reasonable expectation of good mental health?
I agree with JLM that this brings up the tricky question of who, exactly, is responsible for the psychiatric state of abortion patients, and how far that responsibility extends. I think it’s a huge mess of grey areas, but I think that if the woman is telling people that she doesn’t want to do this, that’s a pretty good sign that she is not making the choice she wants to make and possibly that she’s not in an appropriate mental state to consent to the procedure.
If you were to try to sign a contract and cry the whole time to the lawyer about how this is really not what you want to do, you probably wouldn’t be legally capable of consenting to whatever you were signing. I’m pretty sure that if you plead guilty to a crime, you can’t cop out and do a “I’m innocent, but I’ll PLEAD guilty so this is over faster, but we’ll all know that I’m not really admitting to anything.” You have to say that you’re guilty, or go to trial.
Well, that’s not really an accurate comparison, because going on a date or sitting on a bed does not mean consenting to sex, whereas making an appointment and signing on the dotted line pretty much DOES mean consenting to abortion. It’s not like you go in for a routine ultrasound and they abort your baby against your will. The issue isn’t consent, it’s informed consent or ability to consent. The question isn’t did she make this decision, it’s did she make this decision of her own volition and with a reasonable expectation of good mental health?
Actually, date rape can be analogous, because a woman can go with the intent to have sex with the man, but then can end up changing her mind and saying “No”, but if the man still has sex with her (while she’s protesting), he has raped her. Or, do you think that if she originally decided to that she does not have the right to change her mind?
Sorry, I submitted before I meant to. My point in the last paragraph is that in many areas, we take the mental state of the person in question into account when they’re legally consenting to something. I don’t think that you can ever ensure full mental health in 100% of any group of people who are consenting to anything, but I think that this case is a good example of why you need to at least TRY.
Yes, I agree with your 4:04 post, Alexandria.
I would like to know is why abortion proponents here believe they did not even try?
Or, do you think that if she originally decided to that she does not have the right to change her mind?
No, Bethany, I don’t think that at all, though in some states that legally does not count as rape (absurdly enough). I do think that’s a specific sub-set of date rape, though, so it’s a bit of a generalization to say that performing an abortion on a woman who legally consents to it is the same as date rape. I think it’s kind of its own problem, not really analogous to anything I can think of off-hand. I really view it more in a legal-definition “coerced consent” way, much as no legal official will put up with you sobbing and begging your way through signing a contract or something. We hold legal officials to a standard where they’re supposed to, at the very least, react to obvious signs of coercion, and I guess that’s the best analogy I see.
“Well, that’s not really an accurate comparison, because going on a date or sitting on a bed does not mean consenting to sex.”
….To some men it certainly does and has in cases of date rape.
“whereas making an appointment and signing on the dotted line pretty much DOES mean consenting to abortion.”
….No, she can change her mind after she signs on the dotted line. Just because she signs an informed consent doesn’t mean she is legally bound to the abortion. Do you think it would be legal for them to chase a woman down and tackle her if she changed her mind?
“I’m pretty sure that if you plead guilty to a crime, you can’t cop out and do a “I’m innocent, but I’ll PLEAD guilty so this is over faster, but we’ll all know that I’m not really admitting to anything.” You have to say that you’re guilty, or go to trial.”
………..This happens all the time in the court system.
Hey Bethany,
Thanks for the support. No problem with the e-mail. Totally understand. Whenever you get a chance would be great!
Alexandria, would you possibly be willing to read the book Lime 5 by Mark Crutcher?
There is nothing in the book that is not backed up by documentation, and I really think that you might be surprised by some of the stuff in there. I would be very interested to hear your insight on details of the book. You can get it at Amazon.com for only 35 cents right now.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0964888602/ref=pd_bbs_sr_olp_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203805229&sr=8-1
Yes, of course it does. The medical staff took advantage of this woman. the PCers are always saying how this decision is so difficult and tragic. Why would you put a woman who is obviously not of sound mind in a position to make such a live changing decision to kill her children.
Sandy,
I’m not disagreeing with you guys at all here, I’m just trying to understand. It’s just that every time I think I know all of the aspects of the business of abortion, a new one rears its ugly head to make me think. I HATE ABORTION!!!
My point was, is that who’s responsibility is it to know the mental state of a patient? If this doctor gave her the phone number of a pregnancy counselling center, and then she came back to him 8 days later, wouldn’t he assume that she spoke with a counselor and was now “ok” in the head to have an abortion? I agree that a simple, “are you sure?” would have been appropriate, but if it’s not mandated, how can we pass blame on him and not Emma for not seeking the help HERSELF to make sure she was ready for such a life-altering (no pun intended) decision?
The scope of an abortionists “job” is to kill, and kill only. He did his job (well, I might add). I don’t think he took advantage of her, I think he simply did his job.
I don’t want “abortion reform” by having each woman counseled before and after an abortion. I just want abortion to GO AWAY!
It really blows my mind that PC’er refuse to recognize that there is such an animal as “post-abortion depression”. How can there not be?
Thanks for your post JLM. I really truly believe that women who do visit an abortion clinic should have some type of psych evaluation before they make this decision. If an evaluation was given, young women and girls who are feeling forced into the abortion by family or boyfriends would hopefully be weeded out as well as other women who are really unsure if this is the decision they want to make. I don’t think this will solve PAS at all, but maybe diminish some of the fallout after abortion.
I had several friends and some family members who lost babies to miscarriage, and I was totally unsupportive and didn’t understand why they were so emotional, depressed and unglued.
I then had a miscarriage. It caught me so off guard emotionally. I fell apart. I received no medical support and people (even family) just don’t know what to say to help.
I guess my point is that even women who really think they are making the right decsion to abort won’t always realize how it will effect them until they have gone through the procedure.
“Nope, she wanted that abortion.
She traveled to the venue, plunked down her money, and jumped up on that table. Nobody forced her.”
so you don’t consider coercion a method of force? interesting.
Tori,
FF hasn’t responded, but with her logic she also believes women choose and agree to be date raped as well.
on a whole different kind of reasoning:
abortion has many aspects more akin to suicide than to murder. Sometimes noting abortion only as a form of murder is accusatory and does little to change abortion numbers. If however, it becomes perceived as a quasi-suicide then all kinds of counseling might happen. (This might be something like when alcoholism is treated as a disease. Condemnation does so very little.)
Does one ask for jail-time as a solution to a suicide attempt?
….No, she can change her mind after she signs on the dotted line. Just because she signs an informed consent doesn’t mean she is legally bound to the abortion. Do you think it would be legal for them to chase a woman down and tackle her if she changed her mind?
Obviously this is the case, Sandy, a woman has the right to change her mind up until the procedure is in progress — my rhetorical point about signing on the dotted line is that if the woman makes the appointment, pays for it, shows up for it, signs the paperwork, and goes through with it, she has legally consented. If her state of mind is such that it would suggest she is not capable of legal consent — such as, if she’s going through with all of the motions of consent despite sobbing that she doesn’t want to — that’s a different story, which is what I’m talking about. A woman cannot legally consent if she’s not capable of consenting due to mental state.
………..This happens all the time in the court system.
Really? I know that innocent people plead guilty, but all of my experience in the courtroom has shown that the judge will require a legitimate guilty plea in the interest of “justice” rather than bargains. I’ve never known of a judge who would accept a guilty plea that seemed coerced or manipulated. Admittedly I only have some paralegal experience, so it’s not like I have ears in law or anything. Like I said, innocent people plead guilty all the time, which is not justice at all and which isn’t right, but in my experience if they provide unequivocal evidence that they don’t believe they should be pleading guilty, a judge will at least question their ability to enter a plea.
I have known a million drama queens – including two suicidal ones.
This chick’s decision to kill herself on her birthday was a calculated bid to hurt her loved ones.
No one would have performed an abortion for her if she had stated that she didn’t want one. That little drama was intended to punish her boyfriend.
This suicide was just the last act in her annoying little opera. She liked crazy – it certainly got her a lot more attention than seeking treatment and getting on with her life would have done.
Check it out – we’re 1/2 a world away and we’re talking about her. She got exactly what she wanted. Drama queens are nothing if not manipulative…
To all of the people here who are saying that she must have wanted the abortion, or she never would have gotten it: can you honestly say that you have *never* caved in to pressure and done something you really didn’t want to do? If so, may I please have some of your self-confidence and determination? You must have those qualities in superhuman abundance.
If she was having second thoughts, why did she go to the clinic?
No one would have performed an abortion for her if she had stated that she didn’t want one.
FF,
Are you kidding me. Have you not read the testimonies from women who change their minds and are told it’s too late and are knocked out
and awaken to find out the abortion took place?
Oh, I know, these are all made up stories.
*rolls eyes*
If you refinance your house you get a three day recission period to take some time and make sure you are doing the right thing.
If these abortionists want to be considered medical professionals, they should have to abide by the standards of care policies and take care of someone who was clearly not in the right frame of mind to make decisions on her own. Especially one that according to your side is very traumatic and very hard on the women who choose it.
By law, even you were required to get an evaluation prior to your sterilization.
I don’t care if you think her story was an opera.
The woman clearly needed help and most of the time the people who need help the most will never want to accept it. You see it all the time with homeless people, drug addicts, alcoholics and like people in Emma’s case who are in need of emotional and psych help. Medical professionals are trained to look for and treat this type of behavior. So it just proves the point that these people were abortionists and nowhere near considered real medical professionals.
If she was having second thoughts, why did she go to the clinic?
Posted by: SoMG at February 23, 2008 9:10 PM
On average people visit a carpet shop five times before they make a decision to purchase new carpeting.
Give me a break.
Great post Sandy !!
“I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies – they need me, no one else does.”
These words really speak to the desire people feel to be part of a family. She realizes that the members of her family and her partner have no desire to love her or treat her like family and she sees that she continued the dysfunction by rejecting her own children. It is so sad. Whatever her faults and failings, I can’t help but feel sorry for her in her grief and loss.
“Emma had always been extremely vulnerable, but unfortunately always refused the help that was offered to her. She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
Does anyone wish to attempt to assert that carrying a pregnancy to term would have somehow magically cured this women of her emotional instability?
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 6:46 PM
Obviously no one can say what might have been. However, statistically women who carry to term have a lower suicide rate than the general population. Likewise, women who abort have a suicide rate about five times higher than the general population. China is the only country where women have a higher suicide and depression rate than men have. Of course some women who give birth also commit suicide, so giving birth is not a magic bullet.
On average people visit a carpet shop five times before they make a decision to purchase new carpeting.
Give me a break.
Posted by: Sandy at February 23, 2008 9:29 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yup, and it was her THIRD trip to get the abortion she wanted.
She had made up her mind. Clearly she was comfortable with cancelling and walking out from her first two trips. Her mind was SET.
It seems as though her mind may have been SET, but she still had doubts if it was the RIGHT thing to do. She was frightened, she wasn’t sure of herself.
I can totally relate to that. I could have been her as I had suicidal thoughts for years after my abortion. But what do I know? I am just a dumb, Rachel’s Vineyard Chick. Right, Laura? Oh, and don’t forget drama queen in my own annoying little opera trying to manipulate others.
Or, FF, maybe she was trying to “talk herself” into it and didn’t succeed until the third time. Given her behavior, I think it’s reasonable to expect officials to at least consider that she was extremely conflicted.
FF,
Yes and all the women who go out on a date with a guy for the third time get the date rape they wanted.
Doesn’t it make sense that since she was in their office two times prior it would indicate the women has serious doubts about what she was going to do?
Not to mention FF, since you were not in the clinic with her at the time, you have no way of knowing that she decided not to go ahead with the procedure and was coerced into it through meds.
No means No.
I love you Sandy…you just have a way of putting things that hits home. That’s a gift I think. :)
Sandy,
I truly love your posts. You make a ton of sense to me. However, I just can’t seem to grasp the concept that it should be the abortionists responsiblity to make sure Emma 100% wanted the abortion.
The abortionists job is to remove the baby from the womb. (i.e., kill and remove). Emma came to him for that, and he did it. He did the scope of his job.
To imply that he shouldn’t have because she maybe really didn’t want to, begs this question:
A 350-pound woman really wanted to lose weight and decided to go to McDonald’s for lunch that day to buy a salad. She tells the clerk that she really wants a salad, but she’s leaning more towards a Big Mac. She leaves McDonalds, then comes back and says to the same clerk, “I’ll have a Big Mac”. Is it the McDonalds clerk’s job to decide if she really should have a salad instead? The clerk knows she’s going to regret eating the Big Mac and should probably have the salad. Would the clerk then be out of line if she said gave her the Big Mac?
Thanks Elizabeth!
You made my day!
JLM,
Thanks! In this case I believe that if Emma was expressing serious doubts about what she was about to do they should have done what any OB/GYN would do out of care and concern and not proceed with the abortion until she had further counseling.
The clerk knows she’s going to regret eating the Big Mac and should probably have the salad. Would the clerk then be out of line if she said gave her the Big Mac?
I see the point you are tying to make, but Emma said No to the abortion and let everyone know she didn’t want to go ahead with the procedure.
Had the 350 pound woman went back and ordered a Big Mac and at the last second decided she didn’t want it, the clerk would be in the wrong for shoving it in her bag and for refusing to honor her decision to get a salad instead. This is what happened to Emma. She changed her mind and said No. The lady who ordered the big Mac didn’t let the clerk know she didn’t want it.
you have no way of knowing that she decided not to go ahead with the procedure and was coerced into it through meds.
Posted by: Sandy at February 24, 2008 12:47 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah! All day long I have to duck the jungle jeeps and choppers sporting those field abortionists and their high-powered long-range drug darting guns.
You can always tell which women have been the victims of these Jeff Corwinesque maniacs by their brightly-colored ear tags and radio/GPS collars.
This is what happened to Emma. She changed her mind and said No.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s not the story reported in the article;
“She had already been counselled by doctors by the time I saw her. As far as I can recall, Emma did not express any doubts about her decision. There is never any pressure put on a woman to choose either way.”
By the way, we’ve all received food from a fast food place that we didn’t order. You simply don’t eat it.
Actually this whole thing reminds me of the 350lb. people who sue McDonalds for causing their obesity – you know – because the Hamburgler held a gun to their head and made them eat it.
That’s not the story reported in the article;
“She had already been counselled by doctors by the time I saw her. As far as I can recall, Emma did not express any doubts about her decision. There is never any pressure put on a woman to choose either way.”
Yes and the doctor uses “recall” we all know what “recall” means. It’s his/her interpretation of the events that he/she wants them to be per his/her faulty memory. If Emma were already counselled by Dr.s, where are they in this story? Where is their reports to support the fact she wanted to abort??
Do you really expect this Dr. to come forward and say, yes, I asmit it. I did it. We thought it would be best for her. Even though she stated she didn’t want the abortion, we went ahead anyways and just went through with it.
*************88
And all of the guys who go to court for date rape will us the excuse that “she wanted it”
“she was into it” “even though she said no, she really meant yes”
Do you really expect this Dr. to come forward and say, yes, I asmit it. I did it. We thought it would be best for her. Even though she stated she didn’t want the abortion, we went ahead anyways and just went through with it.
REALLY!
Thank you for responding, Sandy.
I see your point.
MK: While YOU may believe that some women suffer after abortion, Sally, TR, Laura and others have shown time and again that they don’t believe it exists. They always make excuses and try to say that the women were messed up before hand.
Well, if they would actually say that no woman has suffered from having an abortion, then I would agree that they are wrong. Psychological problems beforehand can certainly lend themselves to problems afterwards, etc., but I don’t really think they believe “it does not exist for any woman.”
……
If a woman was suffering from depression, then got raped, would you say that all of her feelings after the rape were invalid, because they could be coming from her previous “depression”?
No, ‘course not.
……
When Carla came on here and said that she regretted her abortion, these three women were all over her. Claimed it was “her fault”. They’ve said that the only reason women feel regret is because “we” make them feel guilty. It’s never just a clear cut case of women realizing that they have made a bad choice. And the consequences took them by surprise.
I like Carla, and don’t want to sound critical of her. I’ve read her description of events on her blog. I can see both sides. I do believe that some women do regret having abortions, on balance – no question about it.
……
Don’t you see that it is a threat to their “bubble” world to admit that women can go into an abortion clinic, have an abortion willingly, and then realize that they made a terrible mistake?
No, I don’t think they feel that way. Did Carla, for example, make a mistake, for her? I think everybody would say yes.
……
They (The Unholy Three) can’t allow that to be true. It confounds them. Just as women like Erin, confound us. It doesn’t fit into our view, that some women can have absolutely no guilty feelings after killing their own child. And it doesn’t fit into their view, that some women can have guilty feelings for killing a “blob of cells”
Well, I’d say that feelings can’t really be argued – they simply are.
……
So they deny Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome caused by abortion, and we hold that most women who have had abortions will one day face the truth of what they have done and the guilt will ooze out of their pores.
Well, that’s just it – there is not enough incidence for “syndrome” to apply. Case-by-case, yes, some women do suffer, however. I totally disagree with you on the “most women.” That just does not pan out at all.
…….
We are both right and we are both wrong. It seems that some women, actually don’t feel guilt (how this is possible, I don’t know…perhaps they have a wall up allowing them to continue the delusion that it wasn’t a real child) and some women are overcome by guilt.
“Child” is subjective, MK. Different people see things differently, here, and I see that you realize that – I feel that everybody should.
Doug
Sandy: And BTW Doug, before you come across like the “expert” on pro-choice issues, tell me this, What documented books have you ever read detailing the abortion industry?
Sandy, don’t know what you’re referring to, but some things are just common sense.
……
Lime Five would be excellent
That one has been well refuted and discredited.
……
Blood Money would be excellent
Don’t know a thing about that book.
……
There have been many testimonies from previous abortion workers who stated their jobs were to make sure that the woman never left the clinic.
They lied all the time to get women to abort. They were trained to play on women’s emotions so they would concede. These clinics use and abuse women for their own pathetic profits.
Then that’s coercive, and as a Pro-Choicer I’m not for that.
Doug
“Bethany, does Sally want the woman to be coerced, one way or the other?”
Did you even read her posts? Obviously, she thinks that women who are depressed should NOT have children! She thinks that what happened to that woman was acceptable. That it didn’t matter if she had second thoughts. That the coercion was acceptable because she has a history of depression.
So is she pro-choice, Doug? Answer directly.
Bethany, I guess not, for women who are too depressed. Heck, I think that we all make exceptions, i.e. there are people and situations where they just plain shouldn’t have kids.
When Carla came on here and said that she regretted her abortion, these three women were all over her. Claimed it was “her fault”. They’ve said that the only reason women feel regret is because “we” make them feel guilty.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s unmitigated bulls**t.
All I ever said about Carla was that her inability to make adult decisions was no reason to outlaw abortion. The vast, VAST majority of women who have abortions are grateful to have had access to the procedure.
If someone tells me that they regret their abortion, I believe them. If someone tells me that they don’t regret their abortion, I believe them.
Don’t know a thing about that book.
Doug,
The book is written by Carol Everett. I challenge you to read this book.
Carol Everett is a former abortion clinic owner who comes clean about the illegal practices of abortion clinics she herself owned.
She spoke at a statewide conference in my city in the early 90’s. She has no reason to lie or fabricate any of her story.
Also, who has disputed Lime 5. Source please.
That’s unmitigated bulls**t.
All I ever said about Carla was that her inability to make adult decisions was no reason to outlaw abortion. The vast, VAST majority of women who have abortions are grateful to have had access to the procedure.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 24, 2008 8:28 PM
Laura,
You are a liar or have a very bad memory and should get it checked out.
You have been outright HATEFUL to women who have come on this site to talk about the regret they have felt after abortion.
You absolutely made cruel fun of one woman who admitted to having two abortions that she regretted.
Own what you write.
Honestly Laura,
I think someone should start a file just for your comments so we can easily pull them up and prove to you how incredibly mean spriited you are towards women. If only I had the time.
I think that prolifers can not fathom how someone could have an abortion and not regret it. However, I don’t think it helps our cause to not face the facts that many women have abortions without regret. Also, if FF could prove that no woman regretted her abortion, wouldn’t we still be against abortion?
You absolutely made cruel fun of one woman who admitted to having two abortions that she regretted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope.
That woman said that her abortion lasted days and days and was excruciatingly painful – so she had another one just like it later that same year.
I maintained that she wasn’t very bright or at least didn’t mind the first one if she went back for more of the same.
I don’t care if someone regrets their abortion.
What galls me is when a woman declares that abortion should be outlawed because of the tiny number of women who regret their procedure – especially when the vast majority of women who abort are fine with their decision.
FF: I am going to agree with you so don’t be shocked. My reasons for believeing that abortion should be outlawed have nothing to do with post-abortive regret. Even if every woman who had an abortion was happy with her decision, I would still be against it. The end result is the same…..
Well said, Carrie!
Lime 5:
Making Mountains Out of a Pebble
by Anne Bower
With much fanfare, Mark Crutcher of Life Dynamics, Inc. released this year his long-awaited indictment of the abortion industry, Lime 5, a book that, rather than “blowing the lid” off abortion, is a statistical stamp of approval for the nation’s providers.? Of course, Mr. Crutcher does not see it that way. In his mind, Lime 5, with its catalog of disturbing incidents of sub-standard medical care combined with conspiracy theories worthy of The X-Files, proves that all doctors are scum and thousands of women die each year from abortion- related complication.?
However, a careful reading of this document, especially with an eye to fundamental mathematics and with concern for accurate reporting of medical incidents, reveals that Lime 5 more than supports the fact that legal abortion is safe abortion and the majority of practitioners and clinics provide appropriate medical care.?
In this article I plan, in the interest of brevity, on reviewing Lime 5, concentrating my time on the more sensational part — the cases cited — with a little time for Mr. Crutcher’s conspiracy theories of a cover-up involving doctors, state government, the Center for Disease Control and the ever popular media.?
Setting the Stage
In Lime 5, Mr. Crutcher questions all statistics on abortion released by the Center for Disease Control because some of those at the CDC are OB/Gyns — some of whom provide abortions. To Mr. Crutcher’s way of thinking, these doctors could not be objective or neutral when reporting on abortion. If that premise holds true, it behooves me to discuss Mr. Crutcher’s “neutrality” on the issue of abortion, using as evidence past literature from his organization, Life Dynamics.?
Incorporated in Texas in 1992 as a not-for-profit, LDI wasted no time attacking providers. Mr. Crutcher’s first project was The 800 Club , a possible pun on Pat Robertson’s 700 Club program. The 800 Club distributed a list of 800 numbers offered as a service by clinics to their patients. The stated purpose of the club was to offer pro-lifers the opportunity of “harassing these abortionists, or creating what might be called an ‘electronic rescue’.” With typical weasel-wording, Mr. Crutcher denied compiling the list to harass doctors but to offer the pro-life community the opportunity to call clinics to express an opinion about what they do or encourage them to emphasis adoption over abortion.?
As a cautionary note, at the bottom of The 800 Club flyer, Mr. Crutcher mentioned that businesses get an “activity report” each month allowing them to identify anyone who calls repeatedly. He then helpfully adds with a smirk, “This would not apply to calls made from pay phones.” In 1993, Mr. Crutcher claimed in his newsletter that over 75,000 copies of The 800 Club had been distributed. The consequences were, some clinics were forced to discontinue this service probably because of abuse orchestrated by LDI.?
Project Choice — NOT!
Barely catching his breath after launching The 800 Club, Mr Crutcher next hatched Project Choice, a survey of abortion providers that doctors thought was being circulated by legitimate researchers who would use the information in an appropriate fashion. Instead the survey results have been used to stigmatize abortion providers as neurotic misfits shunned by the medical community.?
Mr. Crutcher’s deception was exposed in April 1993 in an article in The Wichita Eagle, written by reporter Judy Lundstrom Thomas. Freely admitting the ruse of the creation of Project Choice, Mr. Crutcher said, “This is a war. We can’t come into this thing and play by a bunch of rules that we think should exist … if these people knew we were pro-life they wouldn’t talk to us.” When asked by Ms. Thomas if he felt guilty about his ruse, Mr. Crutcher replied, “Not one bit. I mean, we’re talking baby killers here.”?
Bottom Feeder, Indeed!
With the exposing of the Project Choice scam, one might think they had plumbed the depths of Mr. Crutcher. Then came the nadir of yellow journalism, Bottom Feeder, a crudely illustrated tawdry pamphlet filled with recycled lawyer and moron jokes that was mailed around the country — many to medical students. The underlying tone of contempt and hatred for abortion providers exemplified by Bottom Feeder became all the more sinister because 1993 was the year the first doctor, David Gunn, was shot down in cold-blood.?
Besides these cheap pamphlets, Mr. Crutcher also sent out more sophisticated mailings of large postcards warning doctors what awaited them if they choose to provide abortions. It is believed that virtually tens of thousands of these post cards were mailed, leaving the pro-choice community puzzling where Mr. Crutcher gets his mailing budget for this and all his other projects.?
Other Opuses
Never content to rest on his laurels, Mark Crutcher and LDI produced two other works, Abortion Malpractice, written by David Reardon, a how-to-sue-a-doctor kit sent to many lawyers around the country, and Firestorm , authored by Mr. Crutcher. The slick 73 page Abortion Malpractice workbook was accompanied by a 10-minute promotional video (Mr. Crutcher was previously in advertising) telling lawyers that doctors who perform abortions are the “least skilled” of their profession and hinting thar is gold in them thar abortion malpractice hills.?
Firestorm, Mr. Crutcher’s magnum opus, is reviewed by provider Patricia Baird Windle beginning on page 11 [the Body Politic, October/November 1996]. Suffice it to say that its intent is to prevent doctors from being able to provide abortion, thereby rendering the legality of choice, moot.?
Lime 5 — The Latest Attack
In January 1996, after compiling data from hundreds of “Spies for Life” who had been digging frantically through every newspaper for references to possible deaths from abortion (legal or otherwise), Mr. Crutcher unveiled Lime 5, the book that was supposed to destroy the abortion industry. Nine months later, abortion is still legal and women are still seeking it daily. With the exception of an advert for the book in Working Woman magazine, little has been made of this ridiculous document. However, that is not to say Lime 5’s assertions, half truths and outrageous allegations do not deserve a response.?
Mr. Crutcher’s misrepresentation begins immediately in the Introduction when he characterizes Life Dynamics as “an organization that provides litigation support to malpractice attorneys who sue on behalf of women who have been killed, injured, or sexually assaulted during an abortion”. There is no mention of this Statement of Position in LDI’s newsletter,?
“Life Dynamics is dedicated to the proposition that no action should be lawful if its intention is to?
take the life of an innocent human being. Therefore, induced abortions should be illegal under all circumstances and at every stage of pregnancy.”?
With such a viewpoint, Mr. Crutcher’s lens of objectivity is apt to be a tad off-focus.?
In the Acknowledgments, Mr. Crutcher claims that information for Lime 5 was provided by more than 200 individuals and culled from hundreds of public documents. What he does not say, is many of those documents were nothing more than newspaper accounts, some dredged up from 30 years ago — not appropriate evidence for legal action.?
The X-Files — continued
In Lime 5’s first chapter, Safe and Legal, Mr. Crutcher promises a “sobering look at the price American women have been forced to pay for ‘the right to choose'”. His immediate conclusion of legal abortion is, “After more than twenty years of legalization, they have yet to even approach minimal safety standards, and American women are being butchered because of it.”?
How, you might ask, could all this be happening and the American public be unaware? Simple, says Mark Crutcher. It’s all a giant cover-up — a new Area 51 — a conspiracy between the abortion industry, state and local governments, doctors, the Center for Disease Control, and of course, the ever popular villains, the media. Using this fantasy as cover, Mr. Crutcher first excuses his book for the lack of hard data on women injured or killed by abortion because of the “limited experience at medical research and a relatively tiny budget” he had at to work with.?
Second, whimpers Mr. Crutcher, no one would cooperate with LDI — especially the CDC who he takes to task for keeping terrible statistics on abortion, a clear sign of their complicity in the cover-up. Apparently Mr. Crutcher is unaware that President Bush is more to blame for the paucity of abortion statistics than the CDC. It was during his administration that the keeping of those statistics was discontinued, probably because the statistics consistently showed abortion was a medically safe procedure — politically incorrect numbers during his administration. When it comes to conspiracy theories, is it possible that Mr. Crutcher has spent too much time watching X-Files reruns??
The third excuse for lack of documented evidence in Lime 5 is the claim that lawyers do not want to talk about cases in progress, resulting in the few number of cases reported from the late 1980s on. Mr. Crutcher also asserts that few women will file a case, anyway.?
To those who counter these arguments that there are many statistics showing abortion is safe, Mr. Crutcher responds, “Anytime you see a statistical chart about abortion injury, sexual assault, or death, the person who compiled that chart is either very misinformed or is lying.” Take that, State Health Departments, Alan Guttmacher Institute, and the CDC, liars all.?
The final weasel argument about abortion being unsafe is based on the quaint and ridiculous notion that women who have abortions are all in the peak of health and should therefore suffer no complications. (Others who seek surgery are all sick or injured so you might expect complications). With total disregard for reality, Mr. Crutcher purrs, “In fact, it has often been observed that a woman is never more healthy in her life than when she is pregnant.” There is no mention anywhere of the complications from full-term pregnancy and delivery.?
The Hard Cases
After this introduction which basically says there is no such thing as a safe abortion, Mr. Crutcher begins the chronicle of injuries attributed to abortion. For the next 60 pages he lists categories of injuries, such as Injuries to the Uterus, Injuries to the Cervix, Injuries to the Intestines/Bowels, all the way to Amputation , Aspirated Vomitus, Unauthorized Sterilization, Masking of Ectopic Pregnancy, and Failed Abortion — Baby Survives . Ignoring the fact that a few of these injuries do not fit what everyone would see as consequences from an abortion, in total, Lime 5, lists 262 injuries of which 122 women tragically died.?
What is to be made of this sad list? A little mathematics puts things in perspective. Over the past twenty-three years that Roe has been in effect, there have been about 35 million abortions. Rounding up Mr. Crutcher’s number of cases to 300, we get less than one case in one-hundred-thousand that resulted in injury or death. Suppose we choose to play with numbers like Mr. Crutcher and give LDI the benefit of the doubt, agreeing they were unable, for whatever reason, to document most of the serious sequelae of abortion. Giving him an incredibly generous factor of 10, which would make 3,000 cases of serious injury over 23 years, that figure still represents less than one case in ten-thousand of all the abortions performed — hardly an indictment of the safety of the procedure.
Note: When computing the figures of Lime 5 I considered making a chart, since they can easily convey information. It quickly became obvious that there wasn’t a piece of paper big enough to illustrate the contrast between the vast number of safe legal abortions and the tiny number of complications.?
As sad as some of the stories are in Lime 5, Mr. Crutcher provides no real documentation for many of the cases and the documentation for other cases cited consist of nothing more than an old newspaper account. A few cases merit as much as two whole paragraphs of explanation, but others are summed up in as little as two lines. Almost all reports are from the woman’s perspective or that of her lawyer. The doctor’s voice is seldom heard. There is no attempt to present a comprehensive picture of the woman’s health prior to the abortion.?
For example, under Injuries to the Intestines/Bowels we find the case of Natasha, a 12-year old who underwent a third trimester abortion. Third trimester terminations are rare and much more likely to cause serious injury, especially on a child. There is no mention of how Natasha got pregnant or the possible consequences of full-term delivery for a twelve-year old.?
The category Hemorrhage included the case of 21-year old Twilla who had a legal abortion in California in 1972. (Even though the book is about “legal” abortion, Mr. Crutcher cites cases beginning as far back as 1968). Twilla did not survive the abortion, but why? Could her hemorrhaging have been the result of hemophilia, a condition she did not report to the doctor because she was so desperate for an abortion? You can make up your own story because Lime 5 is silent on any details.?
Vaulting to Conclusions
It is interesting that, after years of the pro-choice community pointing out how anti-abortion activists focus solely on the fetus, seldom recognizing women as anything but incubators, now that it serves his purpose, Mark Crutcher has become the champion of all wronged women, protecting them from their doctors who he views as little more than butchers.?
As if labeling all doctors who choose to provide abortion as losers and butchers in not enough character assassination, Mr. Crutcher also hints that women who go for an abortion face possible sexual assault. Lime 5 reports on some cases of sexual impropriety of doctors with patients. From these few examples of egregious medical practice, Mr. Crutcher has concluded that all doctors are potential rapists. This seems about as logical as assuming all priests are pedophiles just because some priests are.?
There are a many more assertions to challenge in Lime 5 , but by now you get the picture. Ending as he began, Mr. Crutcher has arrived at this conclusion, “With virtually no exceptions, abortionists are the losers, rejects, and washouts of the medical community who couldn’t compete in, or were drummed out of, legitimate medicine. Over and over, we saw irrefutable proof that good physicians don’t ascend into the practice of abortion, but instead bad ones descend into it.”?
Mr. Crutcher obviously thinks he has proved this assertion in the pages of Lime 5, but he is sadly deluded. If, after sending out scores of operatives researching for over two years, all he could find to indite the practice of legal abortion is contained in this book, then the real conclusion is, Mr. Crutcher has not made a mountain out of a pebble, but a grain of sand.?
The book is written by Carol Everett. I challenge you to read this book.
Carol Everett is a former abortion clinic owner who comes clean about the illegal practices of abortion clinics she herself owned.
Sandy, okay, and there I’m against illegal stuff in hospitals, medical clinics, etc., regardless of whether they do abortions or not.
Doug, go to Mark Crutcher’s Life Dyanamics board.
It often features Army of God types (Robert Ferguson was a regular until he died last year)
Here’s one of the better threads posted two days ago:
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=3602&enterthread=y
Sandy,
I was thinking the same thing about Laura. Well, thinking and praying about her. I have often wondered just where her hatred for women comes from. Why she calls women such horrid, cruel names and seems to have a whole lot of contempt for them. Maybe it is just women she deems stupid?
Or maybe Laura is a man? Larry?
Laura define VAST…..
Laura, I have to laugh at some of that stuff….
Carla, what’s “horrid” and “cruel” is not allowing women to make their own best choice in this matter. If you were pregnant right now, and people wanted to force you to have an abortion, how would you feel about that? Likewise, women don’t want to be forced to continue unwanted pregnancies, nor will they be “happy” about people who want to try to force them.
Doug, go to Mark Crutcher’s Life Dyanamics board.
It often features Army of God types (Robert Ferguson was a regular until he died last year)
And??
SOMG posts here -REGULARLY. Zeke used to post here regularly! Just because someone posts there doesn’t mean that their views are representative of our views.
Here’s one of the better threads posted two days ago:
http://www.prolifeamerica.com/fusetalk/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=7&threadid=3602&enterthread=y
And what’s your problem with this thread? It has absolutely nothing to do with army of God types.
I believe in the 2nd amendment. Don’t you?
I am not “forcing” anyone to carry a pregnancy. I am praying for hearts to change and others who care to surround women in crisis pregnancies. Women need help. Not abortion.
I like you Doug. Thank you for reading my abortion story.
You just don’t get it.
Carla, what’s “horrid” and “cruel” is not allowing women to make their own best choice in this matter. If you were pregnant right now, and people wanted to force you to have an abortion, how would you feel about that? Likewise, women don’t want to be forced to continue unwanted pregnancies, nor will they be “happy” about people who want to try to force them.
Bethany, I guess not, for women who are too depressed. Heck, I think that we all make exceptions, i.e. there are people and situations where they just plain shouldn’t have kids.
Oops, to clarify, those are Doug’s quotes.
Hi Bethany,
What do you use to force women to carry their babies at your Crisis Pregnancy Center? Color me curious.
Hi Bethany,
What do you use to force women to carry their babies at your Crisis Pregnancy Center? Color me curious.
Ah, usually I lure them in with enticing words and deceit…sometimes I play a flute like the pied piper. They all come streaming in, blissfully unaware that I’m leading them to their impending doom.
Once they’re in the door, I lock it, and swallow the key .
I have a group of anti-choice women behind me who are holding guns, surrounding my victims, to ensure that there will be no escapee’s.
Then, I tell every woman there that they’re pregnant, even if they’re not.
Then, I tie them all to chairs, gag them, and stick them in rooms. I tell them that I will bring them a crust of bread and some water every day until they have their babies. Then, once the babies are delivered, I drug them all with an amnesia drug and send them on their way.
:-P
Diabolical!!
Doug,
I saw very little fact-based refutation and examination of the information provided in the book, Lime 5. Rather the focus of the article you provided was attacking Mark Crutcher and mudslinging, rather than logically refuting the information he provided.
Rachel,
Thank you. Dittos. If I had the time, I could tear apart her article piece by piece and refute everything she writes.
Rachel,
Thank you. Dittos. If I had the time, I could tear apart her article piece by piece and refute everything she writes.
Bethany,
LOL! That was good.
You’re too funny!
Sorry for the triple post.:(
Bethany,
LOL! That was good.
You’re too funny!
Woah, I’m seeing double and triple takes! LOL
Yup, and it was her THIRD trip to get the abortion she wanted.
She had made up her mind. Clearly she was comfortable with cancelling and walking out from her first two trips. Her mind was SET.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 23, 2008 9:58 PM
Let’s put this in a context you should understand.
You go into your plastic surgeon’s office because you are contemplating yet another plastic surgery. Let’s say face lift. You make two visits to ask questions and get the correct medical information you need to make a decision.
You schedule the surgery, you are on the table waiting to be put under, but your nerves get the better of you and you decide NOT to go ahead with the procedure. You tell the dr. and everyone in the room you decided you don’t want the facelift. The dr. doesn’t care and says you will be fine and will thank him in the morning.
Unfortunately, you realize after all the bandages come off, the facelift was a disaster like you thought it could be.
Get the point?
I like you Doug. Thank you for reading my abortion story. You just don’t get it.
Carla, I think I do. This was a couple weeks ago, and somebody was saying that you basically “didn’t have a choice.”
From reading what you wrote I think you did, and I said as much.
Considering your little scenario has nothing to do with the woman mentioned on this thread, I’ll just have to wonder WHY you made up that strange little story.
I am not “forcing” anyone to carry a pregnancy. I am praying for hearts to change and others who care to surround women in crisis pregnancies. Women need help. Not abortion.
Carla, forgot this part.
I am fine with praying and wanting women to be cared for. I would disagree, however, with the “not abortion” part. Sometimes that’s really what is needed, as women on this very blod have sometimes testified.
Rachael, Crutcher’s information and conclusions aren’t logical in the first place. He projects very rare situations onto women and cases as a whole, and that’s specious and bad science.
Doug
Considering your little scenario has nothing to do with the woman mentioned on this thread, I’ll just have to wonder WHY you made up that strange little story.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 25, 2008 12:39 PM
No need to wonder. My strange little story written to draw a parellel that you could relate to.
“Carla, what’s “horrid” and “cruel” is not allowing women to make their own best choice in this matter. If you were pregnant right now, and people wanted to force you to have an abortion, how would you feel about that? Likewise, women don’t want to be forced to continue unwanted pregnancies, nor will they be “happy” about people who want to try to force them.”
“Bethany, I guess not, for women who are too depressed. Heck, I think that we all make exceptions, i.e. there are people and situations where they just plain shouldn’t have kids.”
B, you had asked about Sally’s opinion, and IMO there are exceptions too. I am not saying that I would deny them the legal right to get pregnant or gestate, but there are some people, profoundly drug-addicted, etc., where “they should not have kids” applies – my opinion. Should Britney Spears have kids?
Doug
You schedule the surgery, you are on the table waiting to be put under, but your nerves get the better of you and you decide NOT to go ahead with the procedure. You tell the dr. and everyone in the room you decided you don’t want the facelift. The dr. doesn’t care and says you will be fine and will thank him in the morning.
Sandy, sounds pretty doggone unlikely to me – that after everyone is told that you don’t want the facelift, the doctor goes ahead and does it.
Doug
Sandy, sounds pretty doggone unlikely to me – that after everyone is told that you don’t want the facelift, the doctor goes ahead and does it.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at February 25, 2008 12:51 PM
Well, Emma stated she didn’t want the abortion and the dr. went ahead and did it anyway.
Well, Emma stated she didn’t want the abortion and the dr. went ahead and did it anyway.
Posted by: Sandy at February 25, 2008 12:56 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Read the frikken’ article.
Physicians in Great Britain work under a socialized system. There was no financial motive for the doctor to perform an unwated abortion, and this chick’s abortion was very much WANTED:
“I am satisfied that everything was done to make sure that Emma consented to the operation.
“She had already been counselled by doctors by the time I saw her. As far as I can recall, Emma did not express any doubts about her decision. There is never any pressure put on a woman to choose either way.”
Sandy, sounds pretty doggone unlikely to me – that after everyone is told that you don’t want the facelift, the doctor goes ahead and does it.
Doug
Posted by: Doug at February 25, 2008 12:51 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That’s because that little drama has never EVER occurred.
Ah Doug,
Whatever.
I regret my abortion. I never should have done it. I never should have gone through with it. I wish I had had the balls to say NO. I went ahead with something and had no idea what kind consequences I would face.
B, you had asked about Sally’s opinion, and IMO there are exceptions too. I am not saying that I would deny them the legal right to get pregnant or gestate, but there are some people, profoundly drug-addicted, etc., where “they should not have kids” applies – my opinion. Should Britney Spears have kids?
Yes, Doug. Do you think she should have had an abortion?
obviously, she *wanted* her children. That is why she so willingly carried them to term. Do you think that she should have had abortions? If so, you cease to be pro-choice, and you are pro-abortion.
If you have ANY exceptions to your rule of pro-choice, you cease to be pro-choice, and you become pro-abortion.
Choice isn’t choice just when you decide it is.
Choice would mean choice in ANY situation, no matter what.
You read the frikken’ article:
“Living is hell for me. I should never have had an abortion. I see now I would have been a good mum. I told everyone I didn’t want to do it, even at the hospital. I was frightened, now it is too late. I died when my babies died. I want to be with my babies – they need me, no one else does.”
************
With as many abortions as these drs. do, I would highly doubt they would even remember Emma. She was just another nameless widget in their world.
Do you think that she should have had abortions? If so, you cease to be pro-choice, and you are pro-abortion.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really?
Has Doug ever done anything to deny women that choice? Did he try to enact legislation to force her to have an abortion?
I don’t think crack whores should have children, but I respect their right to make that decision. It’s their CHOICE.
Doug, let me ask you this question. Which of Britney Spears children do you think should die because she’s not a good mother?
Yes, Doug. Do you think she should have had an abortion?
obviously, she *wanted* her children. That is why she so willingly carried them to term. Do you think that she should have had abortions? If so, you cease to be pro-choice, and you are pro-abortion.
Well, I don’t agree with that. I think that supporting someone’s right to do something, and thinking that person SHOULD do something, are two different things. I support a KKK member’s right to free speech, even though I would rather him not say the things he says. I think that Britney Spears probably shouldn’t have had kids — which is not to say that I think she should have had an abortion, or that I WISH she had had an abortion, or anything of the sort. Just that I think she is not in a place where she’s capable of giving her children a mother. In my volunteer work I came across a woman who I thought really shouldn’t have a child at that point in her life, but it was her choice to make and I was happy to help her get the resources she needed to make it. That doesn’t make me pro-abortion rather than pro-choice.
Has Doug ever done anything to deny women that choice? Did he try to enact legislation to force her to have an abortion?
I don’t think crack whores should have children, but I respect their right to make that decision. It’s their CHOICE.
He has told me that if his daughter was pregnant as a teen, he would encourage, and even perhaps force (depending on her age) her to abort.
If he is pro-abortion in ANY aspect of the abortion debate, he is not pro-choice.
Well, I don’t agree with that. I think that supporting someone’s right to do something, and thinking that person SHOULD do something, are two different things. I support a KKK member’s right to free speech, even though I would rather him not say the things he says. I think that Britney Spears probably shouldn’t have had kids — which is not to say that I think she should have had an abortion, or that I WISH she had had an abortion, or anything of the sort. Just that I think she is not in a place where she’s capable of giving her children a mother. In my volunteer work I came across a woman who I thought really shouldn’t have a child at that point in her life, but it was her choice to make and I was happy to help her get the resources she needed to make it. That doesn’t make me pro-abortion rather than pro-choice.
Couldn’t it be better said, that those children still deserve to be loved and cared for, and that Britney Spears needs someone to help her change so that she can create a better life for them?
If he is pro-abortion in ANY aspect of the abortion debate, he is not pro-choice.
Posted by: Bethany at February 25, 2008 2:03 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, I guess if you approve of the death penalty or the war you can’t possibly be pro-life.
Couldn’t it be better said, that those children still deserve to be loved and cared for, and that Britney Spears needs someone to help her change so that she can create a better life for them?
Of course. The point is not thinking that she should have her children killed or taken away, but thinking that she was not, at this point, the best person to have kids in the first place. They’re here now and no one is wishing them dead or anything — but would I rather she had waited until she was mentally sound to have children? Yes.
Gee, I guess if you approve of the death penalty or the war you can’t possibly be pro-life.
You’re right…I am not fully pro-life in that context. Which is why I say you are more than welcome to call me anti-abortion instead, which more accurately labels me.
You absolutely made cruel fun of one woman who admitted to having two abortions that she regretted.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope.
That woman said that her abortion lasted days and days and was excruciatingly painful – so she had another one just like it later that same year.
I maintained that she wasn’t very bright or at least didn’t mind the first one if she went back for more of the same.
Posted by: FetusFascist at February 24, 2008 9:28 PM
Thank you for proving my point.
Those were hurtful,nasty mean-sprited comments.
Did this woman have a history of depression, mental instability, etc? Had she ever tried to commit suicide before? Those are important issues but were never addressed. No one ever said NO woman EVER regrets having an abortion. But there is no ‘syndrome’ associated with abortion. And the woman who DOES have problems after a wanted abortion is a rarity.
“Emma had always been extremely vulnerable, but unfortunately always refused the help that was offered to her. She had a long history of anxiety and depression. Despite my best efforts, she was not willing to see a counsellor after the termination.”
What part of long history and always refused help do you not understand?
The article is great pile of speculative rubbish. Read the authors article on why 34 is the best age for women to have babies. @@
Beth Hale is in no danger of winning a pulitzer.
Posted by: Sally at February 22, 2008 11:04 PM
**********************
I just read what was posted – not the entire article – a mistake on my part. That just blew the whole antichoice argument out of the water. The woman had a history of mental illness and emotional instablity. Would antichoicers feel better if she had killed herself while she was still pregnant?
Yeah. Riiiiiiiggggghhhhhtttt.
Honestly Laura,
I think someone should start a file just for your comments so we can easily pull them up and prove to you how incredibly mean spriited you are towards women. If only I had the time.
Posted by: Sandy at February 24, 2008 8:45 PM
*********************************
Why dont you read some of the antichoice comments towards women who have had abortion if you want to see examples of being mean spirited.
Why dont you read some of the antichoice comments towards women who have had abortion if you want to see examples of being mean spirited.
Posted by: Anonymous at February 25, 2008 3:48 PM
On this site?
I just read what was posted – not the entire article – a mistake on my part. That just blew the whole antichoice argument out of the water. The woman had a history of mental illness and emotional instablity. Would antichoicers feel better if she had killed herself while she was still pregnant?
Posted by: Anonymous at February 25, 2008 3:42 PM
Pure speculation on your part Anon. That’s like me saying her pregnancy would have completely cured her mental illness and no one is saying that.
If you have access to EWTN, watch the program The Journey Home tonight at midnight or tomorrow at 9am. The guest is a post abortive woman and she gives a very good account of what she went through after her abortion. The effects didn’t hit her right away but they really hit her several years later. Anyone considering abortion or condoning abortion should think long & hard about the ramifications not only to the BABY but also to the wounded mom.
Ah Doug, Whatever. I regret my abortion. I never should have done it. I never should have gone through with it. I wish I had had the balls to say NO. I went ahead with something and had no idea what kind consequences I would face.
Crap. Carla, I didn’t mean to sound critical of you. I love to argue but don’t mean to hammer at you on this. I know you’re sincere, and of a good and kind and gentle spirit.
I think you are correct, above, and I don’t have arguments with your blog about your experience – I think you’re quite honest.
Other people have said that your blog shows that you “didn’t really have a choice,” but in reading it I don’t feel you are really saying that. Kudos on your honesty.
Doug
“Should Britney Spears have kids?”
Yes, Doug. Do you think she should have had an abortion?
Bethany, no, I don’t think that. I was just speaking in general terms, and indeed with the knowledge of the Britster going “downhill” a bit since her kids were born.
……
obviously, she *wanted* her children. That is why she so willingly carried them to term. Do you think that she should have had abortions? If so, you cease to be pro-choice, and you are pro-abortion.
I don’t think that, but as an illustration I think a similar person would not be suited to having kids, very likely.
……
If you have ANY exceptions to your rule of pro-choice, you cease to be pro-choice, and you become pro-abortion.
No, because it’s situational. I’ve never said “Pro-Choice” beyond any exception. Do I think a 10 year old girl should have kids? No, I really don’t. There is also the difference between thinking that a given person shouldn’t have kids, at least at the time, a la Britney, and thinking that they “should” have an abortion.
……
Choice isn’t choice just when you decide it is. Choice would mean choice in ANY situation, no matter what.
Nope, depends on the situation. It’s at the extremes but there are cases where I wouldn’t be for having abortions and others where I wouldn’t be for giving birth. This is not saying I advocate laws to try and force the women/girls one way or the other, but as far as my opinion I would then be for one thing or the other, and not “pro-choice” without the exceptions.
Example: the admittedly very rare case where a woman would take on huge risk continuing the pregnancy and giving birth. Let’s say she already has 4 kids. She just can’t bear to end the pregnancy, so come what may she wants to give birth.
Well, okay, I wouldn’t make it illegal for her to do so, but wow – if there is the very real chance of her dying and not being there for her kids then in such a case I’m not strictly pro-choice.
Doug
Laura: I don’t think crack whores should have children, but I respect their right to make that decision. It’s their CHOICE.
Right, Laura – agreed.
……
He has told me that if his daughter was pregnant as a teen, he would encourage, and even perhaps force (depending on her age) her to abort. If he is pro-abortion in ANY aspect of the abortion debate, he is not pro-choice.
Bethany, yes – there are some extreme situations where I would not be pro-choice. In the vast majority of cases, yep, but not every single one.
Crutcher’s information and conclusions aren’t logical in the first place. He projects very rare situations onto women and cases as a whole, and that’s specious and bad science.
Fine, provide proof with a factual analysis and breakdown of why the information in the book is incorrect (the burden of proof is on you since you made the assertion) and attack the issue, not the opponent.
Dear Doug,
I guess I wasn’t aware of anyone saying that. I wrote out my experience on my blog to help others and it did just that. Several people emailed me to tell me of their experiences. I am thankful for their honesty. One young lady had never told anyone.
We could argue on and on what I could or should have done or not done. I feel like a broken record.
No worries, man.
Bethany, yes – there are some extreme situations where I would not be pro-choice. In the vast majority of cases, yep, but not every single one.
If I was against rape in the vast majority of cases, but there were some extreme cases (where I thought the man REALLY had an excuse to do it), where I thought it was okay, would you consider me to be against rape?
Example: the admittedly very rare case where a woman would take on huge risk continuing the pregnancy and giving birth. Let’s say she already has 4 kids. She just can’t bear to end the pregnancy, so come what may she wants to give birth.
Well, okay, I wouldn’t make it illegal for her to do so, but wow – if there is the very real chance of her dying and not being there for her kids then in such a case I’m not strictly pro-choice.
Wait. So you would be willing to force a woman who WANTED her pregnancy to continue, to abort, thinking that YOU know what’s best for her body, and her children?
Doug, I’m not trying to be harsh, but can you not see that you’re saying a woman who has kids SHOULD NOT carry a pregnancy if she so chooses- if you think it may kill her- is a pro-abortion mindset?
Doug, let me ask you this question. Which of Britney Spears children do you think should die because she’s not a good mother?
Posted by: Bethany at February 25, 2008 1:54 PM
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This is another really really stupid argument. Then you wonder why I question whether antichoicers CAN come up with arguments which do NOT make them look like idiots.
This is another really really stupid argument. Then you wonder why I question whether antichoicers CAN come up with arguments which do NOT make them look like idiots.
Well, it’s probably the same way that I wonder whether Iva can come up with arguments which do NOT include insults like “idiot”.
lol
We could argue on and on what I could or should have done or not done. I feel like a broken record. No worries, man.
Carla, I don’t think you and I were arguing all that much in the first place. I see nothing wrong in sharing your experience, nothing at all.
I was tempted to say, “Too bad we can’t all avoid mistakes,” but it wouldn’t be the same existence that way, and maybe a change for the worse, rather than for the better..?
Doug
Doug, I’m not trying to be harsh, but can you not see that you’re saying a woman who has kids SHOULD NOT carry a pregnancy if she so chooses- if you think it may kill her- is a pro-abortion mindset?
Bethany, no worries on “harshness” and yes – as I said, there are situations where I’m not going to be pro-choice. I do think it’s better to end a given pregnancy if the risks are high enough, especially if the woman already had four kids – something like that.
I’d still leave it up to her, though, but IMO the best thing to do is to ensure she stays around for her family.
“Bethany, yes – there are some extreme situations where I would not be pro-choice. In the vast majority of cases, yep, but not every single one.”
If I was against rape in the vast majority of cases, but there were some extreme cases (where I thought the man REALLY had an excuse to do it), where I thought it was okay, would you consider me to be against rape?
Either not uniformly, no, or that you didn’t feel those cases were actually rape.