Good pro-life ad example
Life Advocacy Resource Project’s Penny Pullen, a pro-life wordsmith who taught me to say “commit abortion” rather than “perform abortion” and “aborting mother” rather than “aborting woman,” is spotlighting an effective political ad in her most recent newsletter.
The ad is by former Louisiana state Rep. Woody Jenkins, now running for Congress. Its theme is, “How can you not be pro-life?” Noteworthy points from the ad, according to Penny:
It’s a great example of effective advocacy for Life….
One of the things I like about it is that it embraces the full spectrum of the right to life…. disabled… elderly… newborn… unborn….
Another key point: It assumes that being prolife is the mainstream position. Nothing timid or defensive about this message….
[It] stress[es] that “being pro-life” is the natural normal view to take.
Watch and learn….
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“How can you not be pro-life?”
A new meme—I love it!
This is a sentiment that pro-lifers have always felt. It sounds nice, but until we work harder at solving the societal problems that lead to abortion, attitudes won’t change. Education starts at home. Are we talking to our children about abortion? Are we giving them a reason to have hope for their future?
I love this. I especially like that he was not afraid of putting the prolife message out there in such a straightforward manner.
My 85 year old mother is pro choice. Only the PL would be so dismissive and disrespectful to the lives and experiences of the elderly. Lumping the elderly together with embryos and the brain dead is nothing less than completely dehumanizing. Shame on you people!
Lumping the elderly together with embryos and the brain dead is nothing less than completely dehumanizing. Shame on you people!
Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 10:38 AM
Can you try to be serious.
Your 85-year-old mother who advocated killing all her future medical caregivers should step to the back of the health care line to be fair, Sally.
“My 85 year old mother is pro choice”
———————————-
hmmm….I would be very, very, VERY lucky to have been able to say that.
advocating killing all of her future medical caregivers?????? Since when do pro-choice people advocate killing (assume you mean aborting) ALL people? There will alwasys be people who want to have children. Some of those children will grow up to be medical caregivers. There will always be people with pregnancies they want to terminate. They will terminate those pregnancies. Legal abortion does not mean the end of the human race.
presidential candidates, who promise to curb the influence of corporate lobbyists in Washington, helped enact narrowly tailored tax breaks sought by major campaign contributors. Sen. Barack Obama’s presidential campaign has accepted $54,350 from members of a law firm that in 2006 lobbied him to introduce a tax provision for a Japanese drug company with operations in Illinois, according to public records and interviews. The government estimates the provision, which became law in December 2006, will cost the treasury $800,000.
I think children of pro-abort mothers must have difficult lives, knowing they are not loved unconditionally. Had they been conceived in the wrong place and time, adios.
I wonder if Sally has aborted siblings?
Your 85-year-old mother who advocated killing all her future medical caregivers should step to the back of the health care line to be fair, Sally.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 4, 2008 10:51 AM
………………………..
You do not have the right to speak for my mother Jill. You have no business presuming to know what her views are on anything or her experience of life. Also, no one has declared you the health care Nazi. You are not allowed to pronounce who will or will not receive care. You seem to be quite deluded as to your importance as well as extremely disrespectful of the elderly. Your pomposity is rather amusing. One certainly doesn’t have to dig very deeply to find your true ‘moral character’ Jill. If you had any conscience you would be ashamed of yourself.
Legal abortion does not mean the end of the human race.
Posted by: Hal at March 4, 2008 11:00 AM
Legal abortion does affect demographics. That is why Europe’s native population is shrinking and they need immigration like never before. It remains to be seen if European culture will influence immigrants more than immigrants influence Europe. However the low birth rate of native Europeans certainly means an imminent and dramatic decline in their numbers if not their culture. When there are enough immigrants in Europe to vote for different kinds of laws, we will see what legal abortion has brought the countries that embrace it.
Sally, 11:29a, said: “You do not have the right to speak for my mother Jill.”
Oh, really? Why not? She’s just an 85-year-old blob of tissue that is clearly becoming inconvenient.
Sally also said, “Also, no one has declared you the health care Nazi. You are not allowed to pronounce who will or will not receive care.”
Well, that’s an interesting thought coming from a pro-abort who advocates killing defective preborns.
“I think children of pro-abort mothers must have difficult lives, knowing they are not loved unconditionally. Had they been conceived in the wrong place and time, adios.”
My mother is pro-choice. I feel loved unconditionally. I might have some aborted siblings, I have no idea and no concern. What a strange way to look at the world.
One certainly doesn’t have to dig very deeply to find your true ‘moral character’ Jill. If you had any conscience you would be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 11:29 AM
Sally, your statement is wrong on so many levels there is not enough time, but for now I just have to say…..
Exsqeeze me???
After the hurtful tirade you aimed at Bethany last week? You have the nerve to question anyones’ moral character?
Ashamed? Are you not ashamed at the hurtful tirade you aimed at Bethany?
Have you apologized to Bethany??
I think children of pro-abort mothers must have difficult lives, knowing they are not loved unconditionally. Had they been conceived in the wrong place and time, adios.
I wonder if Sally has aborted siblings?
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 4, 2008 11:16 AM
………………………………
Mom and dad wanted lots of kids. God aborted 3 of mom’s pregnancies. God strangled one with the umbilical cord. God crushed another’s brain with fluid. God caused another to cease developing and be born in rotting pieces. Of course mom would never blame your violent god for these ‘murders’.
Her last was born in 1965 well before abortion was unbanned. What part of her being 85 do you not understand? Math is your friend Jill.
Did your mother drink a lot when she was pregnant with you?
(I can be snotty and insulting JIll. I don’t pretend to be Christian.)
Sally said, “Her last was born in 1965 well before abortion was unbanned.”
Are you saying had abortion been legal she would have aborted? Was that you by any chance?
I just want to add that the concern over what is taught in public schools goes directly to life issues.
Students graduate without knowing what a tiny developing child looks like or its characteristics. Certainly that is as important as knowing about the guts of a frog.
Since those who believe fewer is better often have fewer children, the public school serves to spread their message that sex outside marriage and abortion are okay to students whose families may disagree. Even folks who are unable to afford private schooling are taking their kids out rather than leave them in the public schools. The percentage children outside of public schools continues to increase.
Those who have more children will increase in number. Those who have fewer will decrease. While there may be people on the left with ten kids, generally those folks are on the right and that trend will continue. That is why the trend in Europe is called cultural suicide. It worked for the Shakers and it can work again.
And Sally, are you saying miscarriage is a bad thing?
“I think children of pro-abort mothers must have difficult lives, knowing they are not loved unconditionally. Had they been conceived in the wrong place and time, adios.”
Hell that’s a lot better then “we only had you so we didn’t go to hell.” Or my favorite from a pro-lifer, “My baby is a wonderful punishment.” Must suck knowing you are here only to punish your parents.
Mom and dad wanted lots of kids. God aborted 3 of mom’s pregnancies. God strangled one with the umbilical cord. God crushed another’s brain with fluid. God caused another to cease developing and be born in rotting pieces. Of course mom would never blame your violent god for these ‘murders’.
(I can be snotty and insulting JIll. I don’t pretend to be Christian.)
Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 11:44 AM
Okay, Sally, you say you are not christian but do you believe in God? because if he doesn’t exist he can’t kill anyone. Believers generally acknowlege God’s singular prerogative to both give and take life, so they aren’t appalled when he does either. They just don’t think people have that same prerogative, which is why they often oppose abortion, wars, death penalty, euthanasia etc.
“Your 85-year-old mother who advocated killing all her future medical caregivers should step to the back of the health care line to be fair, Sally.”
That’s nice. So If you never had a child you shouldn’t receive health care? So if you just can’t have a baby then too bad, you didn’t fill your quota. What is it now? Every woman must have 3 children? So many stupid people just pop out kids like they’re toys then completely neglect them, at least women who abort know their limitations. Believe it or not some people just don’t want kids, they know they won’t be good parents because they never wanted kids.
at least women who abort know their limitations.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 11:59 AM
Jess,
If women knew their limitations, they wouldn’t be pregnant in the first place.
One certainly doesn’t have to dig very deeply to find your true ‘moral character’ Jill. If you had any conscience you would be ashamed of yourself.
Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 11:29 AM
Sally, your statement is wrong on so many levels there is not enough time, but for now I just have to say…..
Exsqeeze me???
After the hurtful tirade you aimed at Bethany last week? You have the nerve to question anyones’ moral character?
Ashamed? Are you not ashamed at the hurtful tirade you aimed at Bethany?
Have you apologized to Bethany??
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 11:39 AM
Hey Sal,
Don’t run away and not answer my questions.
Have you apologized to Bethany??
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 11:39 AM
…………………………
I don’t pretend to be a Christian blog moderator Sandy. Bethany makes the same kind of pompous pronouncements as Jill. Not one of you has the authority to judge anyone’s character yet spend copious amounts of energy doing exactly that. Bethany can be and has been offensive in her manner. Not to mention her story about her fetus falling out into her hand all cleaned up and ready for family photos. I mean really!
Jill and her cronies set the tone of the blog. It should be no shock to receive what one dishes out. MK seems to be the only mod that puts serious effort into avoiding offensive pronouncements and petty snipes.
Hell that’s a lot better then “we only had you so we didn’t go to hell.” Or my favorite from a pro-lifer, “My baby is a wonderful punishment.” Must suck knowing you are here only to punish your parents.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 11:54 AM
I have an unplanned baby later in life and he is not a punishment. However, in this culture people act like you have to be in total control of things that are not entirely controllable. I felt so out of control because this isn’t what I planned to be doing. It is kind of like a parent whose child becomes ill or handicapped. It is hard but they still love their child even though they thought they would be taking their child to little league instead of special olympics. However the hardest part is the judgemental attitude of other people. Whether a woman is a teen or in college, or even old, married or not, a baby is not a punishment but a gift. Unfortunately society is so judgemental of women who don’t fit society’s ideal that it is society that actully pressures her to do something “better” with her life.
So you agree that you have no moral character.
Bethany can be and has been offensive in her manner. Not to mention her story about her fetus falling out into her hand all cleaned up and ready for family photos. I mean really!
What is offensive about Bethany’s story? There are millions of women who have experienced what Bethany has gone through. Are they all offensive to you as well?
It is amazing Sally that you don’t think the brutal killing of innocent babies is offensive but the fact that Bethany decided to honor her baby and want to use her own situation to educate women about miscarriage is offensive.
Jess,
I don’t think you meant to be sexist but I feel the following comment overly castigates women for childbearing.
So many stupid people just pop out kids like they’re toys then completely neglect them, at least women who abort know their limitations. Believe it or not some people just don’t want kids, they know they won’t be good parents because they never wanted kids.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 11:59 AM
I am going to change your comment a little to place the responsiblity on the father.
So many men just fathere kids like they’re disposable then completely neglect the them, at least women who abort know they are completely unsupported if they want that baby. Believe it or not some men just don’t want kids, they know they won’t be good fathers because they never wanted kids.
HI Sally,
You remind me so much of my mother it is frightening. Really.
I miscarried my baby into my hand. I was 10 weeks along. I am so thankful that I got to see my little one. Bethany and I share that experience. Why the problem with that? Why the indignation from you? Why the need to demean others? You must be hurting so badly and I am sorry for that.
hippie, very nice!
When you hold a baby in your arms, how can you not be pro-life?
Because I respect women.
My mom is 87 years old and still vibrant and vivacious. How can you not be pro-life?
Because I don’t believe in forcing dying people to keep fighting when they’re ready to let go.
reality, nobody says that is necessary. There is a time to live and a time to die. When dying is inevitable, turning the machines off or things like DNRs are no problem. When someone is dying and ready to let go, those wishes should be respected. But when the death is layed in the hands of medical professionals, of people who have no right to kill another person, that’s what we have a problem with. Nobody has the right to take away the life of another person.
When you hold a baby in your arms, how can you not be pro-life?
Because I respect women.
My mom is 87 years old and still vibrant and vivacious. How can you not be pro-life?
Because I don’t believe in forcing dying people to keep fighting when they’re ready to let go.
Posted by: reality at March 4, 2008 1:06 PM
Reality,
Once again your statements are far from making any real sense.
I respect women too. That’s why I am pro-life.
No one is arguing the point that if an elderly person is dying and has stated they want to be left to pass on with no herioic measures taken to prolong their life they should be allowed to die.
The point is that the pro-choice movement tends to want to force people to die when they are not ready to go. They view the elderly as a nuisance
to society.
Your 85-year-old mother who advocated killing all her future medical caregivers should step to the back of the health care line to be fair, Sally.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 4, 2008 10:51 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sally’s Mom wants to kill everyone in the health care industry?
Because I don’t believe in forcing dying people to keep fighting when they’re ready to let go.
Posted by: reality at March 4, 2008 1:06 PM
How do we know when and unconcious person is ready to let go?
What about those who want to live but are cut off?
Do you also respect teens who want to keep their babies? What words of support do you offer those whose boyfriends and families pressure them to abort even though they don’t want to? What material support do you offer to the young pregnant women who are victims of incest and whose abusers take them to get abortions to cover it up? What choice does she really have? What are you willing to do to offer her a way out of the abusive home and give her the choice to let her baby live? Or are you just one more voice pressuring her to abort and telling her it is for the best?
When you hold a baby in your arms, how can you not be pro-life?
Because I respect women.
———— Evidently you don’t. You need a crash course in Abortion 101. Women are being raped, molested, and killed in Americas abortion clinics today!!
So many stupid people just pop out kids like they’re toys then completely neglect them, at least women who abort know their limitations. Believe it or not some people just don’t want kids, they know they won’t be good parents because they never wanted kids.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 11:59 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, didn’t someone on this very board sqeeze out an “accident” in her teens and ditched the kid at home to “suffer” while she went out and partied?
“As I lay alone in the procedure room, I could hear footsteps move down the hall and turn into a room. This was repeated several times, each time the footsteps were louder and closer. My anxiety steadily built and then peaked when the abortion provider and her assistant entered the room. I began to have second thoughts, and I asked the assistant if I could have a few minutes. The doctor yelled,
Gee, didn’t someone on this very board sqeeze out an “accident” in her teens and ditched the kid at home to “suffer” while she went out and partied?
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 1:24 PM
Don’t you have a fish tank to clean?
Sandy-ROFL!
Why would I clean a fish tank?
Patient awoke to find abortionist raping her
In 1995, abortionist Lawson A. Akpulonu found himself in trouble. Akpulonu, 49 at the time of his arrest , worked for three abortion clinics, and according to the LA Times (LA Doctor
When you hold a baby in your arms, how can you not be pro-life?
Because I respect women.
Posted by: reality at March 4, 2008 1:06 PM
Do you also respect teens who want to keep their babies?
What words of support do you offer those whose boyfriends and families pressure them to abort even though they don’t want to?
What material support do you offer to the young pregnant women who are victims of incest and whose abusers would take them to get abortions to cover it up ?
What choice does she really have?
What are you willing to do to offer her a way out of the abusive home and give her the choice to let her baby live?
Or are you just one more voice pressuring her to abort and telling her it is for the best?
Are you as committed to giving her a real choice to have her baby as you are to promoting the abortion option?
It seems to me that no one who advocates choice actually provides assistance to anyone who chooses life.
Please don’t tell me you advocate contraceptives, so do I.
Once she is pregnant it is too late.
Please don’t tell me it is Bush’s fault. He didn’t get her pregnant and he isn’t master of the universe. I can’t stand him either and never voted for him.
Please tell me what YOU are willing to do or say that will support a woman in a bad situation to support her desire to have the baby even if she is young or dumb or poor whatever you think is a good reason for her to abort.
Sally,
I can see how one might view this video differently (as being disrespectful of the elderly) if you don’t see the embryo as deserving of the same level of respect as the elderly. With all due respect to its creator, It’s very cute (can I take one of those babies home??), but I’m not sure how efffective it will be in changing minds on abortion. Many people cannot be lumped into one category for all life-issues, in fact, many can’t even agree on what the “life issues” are.
You gals and guys are killing me today. Seriously, too much funniness on this thread.
I loved the video.
WARNING
critical thinking error alert
Lumping the elderly together with embryos and the brain dead is nothing less than completely dehumanizing. Shame on you people!
Posted by: Sally at March 4, 2008 10:38 AM
Grouping all humans together is not dehumanizing.
You can’t dehumanize humans by comparing them to other humans.
Grouping all humans together is not dehumanizing.
You can’t dehumanize humans by comparing them to other humans.
Woo hoo Anonymous!
The word “duh” comes to mind. again.
Actually Sally it’s interesting that YOU lumped your elderly mom in with what you termed “embryos” and “brain dead”.
Maybe it’s YOUR attitude that needs reorienting and not the prolife people on this board.
“Gee, didn’t someone on this very board sqeeze out an “accident” in her teens and ditched the kid at home to “suffer” while she went out and partied?
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 1:24 PM”
Ah he turned out fine. And if he didn’t, then we would be paying for all his needs while he was in prison wouldn’t we? Since Jill didn’t take the time and energy to be a good parent to this child I say she pays for every convict in prison.
“Don’t you have a fish tank to clean?
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 1:27 PM”
Now who isn’t making any sense?
And so you have Sad Eyed Sally.
The result of deathsex being culturized in Sad Eyed Sally for three generations from her naturally bigoted, anti-Catholic, cult family.
Sex=death=Sally being untreated or untreatable PTSD. It must have been traumatic knowing your born into a family, where being born, is a act of death. Sally, you know if it was me, or you, going to die, your dead Sally. Yes mommy, you’ve told me over and over how death comes from our organs that produce life.
OH Hal, re: your 11 am post
you FINALLY got the meaning of aborting = killing
God bless you!
Patricia, I have always understood the pro-life position is that abortion = Killing. I just don’t agree with it.
What are you talking about yllas? You’re so creppy and why are you using Sally’s name spelt backwards? Do you consider yourself the anti-Sally? Would you force women to get pregnant and have babies?
Would you force women to get pregnant and have babies?
Lol, yeah cause THAT’S the opposite of Sally.
Uh Jess,
Ask Sally about her family history of having dead tissue in them for months and not knowing it.
AS for you Jess and that question about force and babies, have you ever been treated for mental conditions which required psychotropic/psychoactive drugs?
“Don’t you have a fish tank to clean?
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 1:27 PM”
Now who isn’t making any sense?
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 2:57 PM
Jess,
It makes perfect sense. RFF worked her way up from a city dog catcher to some low level vet tech position that would include performing daily tasks such as cleaning up animal feces of all kinds.
Jess, please take the case of Amy Grossberg. She was a very much loved, planned, and wanted child. She had everything that money could buy. She got excellent grades in school. She committed infanticide. Nobody can predict anybody’s future.
Gee that’s too bad Hal.
I dare you to go to abort73.com and check out the video on the homepage and watch all of it.
But I doubt you will…
If you still think that abortion is not the killing of a little baby then there IS something seriously wrong with either your eyes or your brain….
Ah yes yllas, I don’t agree with you so I must be crazy. You’re close minded. You appear incapable of trying to understand anyone’s opinion but your own. On that note, maybe since I’m such a crazie I will have like 19 kids by 19 different men and raise them on YOUR tax dollars. Take that.
“Jess,
It makes perfect sense. RFF worked her way up from a city dog catcher to some low level vet tech position that would include performing daily tasks such as cleaning up animal feces of all kinds.
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 3:20 PM”
Well someone has to keep those animals clean. I’m sorry you feel that her job somehow makes her beneath you. I knew a very kind and funny man who was a janitor in my elementary school. He always had a kind word for us when we were sad.
Jess, taxpayers are paying for plenty of abortionists incarcerated for criminal activity.
“Gee that’s too bad Hal.
I dare you to go to abort73.com and check out the video on the homepage and watch all of it.”
Yeah I watched it. It was gross. Who knows though? Maybe it was to save the mothers life? Maybe she was having some type of thyroid problem that would kill her had she continued the pregnancy? For the record I think enemas are more disgusting, but they’re benifical and sometimes neccessary. It’s a dirty job but someone’s got to do it…
If you still think that abortion is not the killing of a little baby then there IS something seriously wrong with either your eyes or your brain….
Or your conscience.
A simple question to you Jess.
1.You are pregnant and you are told you’re going die carrying the child in the womb.
What do you do Jess?
“Jess, taxpayers are paying for plenty of abortionists incarcerated for criminal activity.
Posted by: heather at March 4, 2008 3:27 PM”
We also paid when Martha Stewart was locked up. Everyone is capable of doing the wrong thing. Look at Catholic priests. I wonder if one of their child molestors ended up in the same cell as an abortionist. The priest must be mad he killed off his potential victim.
Abortionist Jailed
You said it, Jess. It’s a dirty job, but some criminals gotta do it.
He always had a kind word for us when we were sad.
And you are comparing HIM to FF? That’s a laugh.
Well someone has to keep those animals clean. I’m sorry you feel that her job somehow makes her beneath you. I knew a very kind and funny man who was a janitor in my elementary school. He always had a kind word for us when we were sad.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 3:26 PM
The problem Jess is that she needs to be reminded that we are not beneath her. I get tired of her ridiculous self-important, haughty, snobish, pretentious, condescending, arrogant, pompous attitude towards every pro-lifer on this site. Got it?
“A simple question to you Jess.
1.You are pregnant and you are told you’re going die carrying the child in the womb.
What do you do Jess?
Posted by: yllas at March 4, 2008 3:30 PM”
Well, if it depends. Is the fetus viable? Will the fetus die if I die? Do I have any other children? If I have other children and it was the only way to save my life then yes I would abort. My children would need a mother more then another brother or sister. If the fetus will live if I die and I have no other children then I would give it life and die for it.
Some women would hire a hit man to murder their husbands. Some men would hire a hit man to kill their wives. It’s a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.
Sandy, Elizabeth,
FF just wants what is best for you. We both do. I’m sure you two want what is best for us also. Let’s just try to keep that in mind. Even when things get out of control let’s remember why we are all here.
“Some women would hire a hit man to murder their husbands. Some men would hire a hit man to kill their wives. It’s a dirty job, but somebody has to do it.
Posted by: heather at March 4, 2008 3:39 PM”
Someone doesn’t have to but someone will. I was reffering to enamas (sp). Which is completely different from shoting someone.
Huh?
FF just wants what is best for you. We both do. I’m sure you two want what is best for us also.
:spits whatever drink that was in my mouth across the room:
Seriously, Jess? Maybe you I can believe, but FF….to think she wants the best for ANYONE besides herself is a stretch. Have you caught the comments about how I’m a spoiled brat who does NOTHING all day long? Yeah, she wants what is best, THAT’S a laugh.
Yup, you’re right it is gross Jess because these children were killed mainly for frivolous reasons. A career, a relationship, mother too young, mother too old, blue eyes, being female,autism, one-night stand, married, not married on and on and on……
Open your eyes Jess and stop kidding yourself.
If abortions are being done to save the mother’s lives then we have something SERIOUSLY wrong with maternal health in the western world to justify MILLIONS of abortions.
I thought you were talking about abortion. A dirty job, but someone will do it. Okay. Same as a hit man. Someone will do it.
Sandy, Elizabeth,
FF just wants what is best for you. We both do. I’m sure you two want what is best for us also. Let’s just try to keep that in mind. Even when things get out of control let’s remember why we are all here.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 3:39 PM
Jess, Although I completely disagree with the vast majority of what you write I find you endearing and of course want the best for you. But please. You are lecturing me and Elizabeth on blog etiquette? LOLLLLL!!!
This is just rare. You obviously have selective reading and comprehension skills when it comes to PCer posts.
It’s a simple question Jess. You have been told your going to die carrying the child in the womb.
What do you do?
Patricia, I believe up until the point of viability when the fetus is still 100% totally relient on the mother’s body it should be her decision whether or not to stay pregnant for any reason at all.
That and yes Elizabeth say you were pregnant with an etopic prenancy and you couldn’t get it removed. I would fight tooth and nail to save your life. Same goes for Heather and Patricia.
Since when couldn’t you get an ectopic pregnancy taken care of? That is VERY different than what we are talking about here and you know it Jess.
“But please. You are lecturing me and Elizabeth on blog etiquette? LOLLLLL!!!”
When was I lecturing?
Yllas, I answered that at 3:36 :
“Well, if it depends. Is the fetus viable? Will the fetus die if I die? Do I have any other children? If I have other children and it was the only way to save my life then yes I would abort. My children would need a mother more then another brother or sister. If the fetus will live if I die and I have no other children then I would give it life and die for it.”
“But please. You are lecturing me and Elizabeth on blog etiquette? LOLLLLL!!!”
When was I lecturing?
Yllas, I answered that at 3:36 :
“Well, if it depends. Is the fetus viable? Will the fetus die if I die? Do I have any other children? If I have other children and it was the only way to save my life then yes I would abort. My children would need a mother more then another brother or sister. If the fetus will live if I die and I have no other children then I would give it life and die for it.”
“Since when couldn’t you get an ectopic pregnancy taken care of? That is VERY different than what we are talking about here and you know it Jess.
Posted by: Elizabeth at March 4, 2008 3:53 PM”
Call me paranoid but it happens in other countries and it could happen here. The Catholic Church for one would rather remove your fallopian tube then abort the etopic pregnancy. Look beyond the now and gaze into the furure…
Sorry that came out kinda funky.
I don’t think any of us are disputing abortion if the LIFE of the mother were at stake.
Hal said: “Patricia, I have always understood the pro-life position is that abortion = Killing. I just don’t agree with it.”
Hal, do you disagree with the claim that 2 + 2 = 4 as well?
It is an extreme irony that pro-abort Catholics cite Thomas Aquinas’ position that a baby isn’t “ensouled” until it’s in the womb for 40 to 80 days. Thomas Aquinas’ ancient, unbelievably unscientific idea which he came up with over 700 years ago. Pro-life Catholics have the gall to go by modern science, since it was discovered about 150 years ago that life begins at fertilization. Pro-life Catholics don’t even talk about “ensoulment” for the most part; we’re talking basic modern science here.
And so you did Jess.
Your answer reveals your ability to save your life for what others may not want from you.
Jess,
Where did you get that piece of info? I am good friends with a pro-life OB and she has no problem removing a baby from a fallopian tube to save the woman’s fertility. The baby has no chance of survival when implanted in the fallopian tube.
The Catholic Church for one would rather remove your fallopian tube then abort the etopic pregnancy.
Show me where it says THAT.
“I don’t think any of us are disputing abortion if the LIFE of the mother were at stake.
Posted by: heather at March 4, 2008 3:57 PM”
Fine then my work here is done. I bid you good day.
Jess,
I forgot to ask you.. If the doc takes the fallopian tube, the baby has no chance anyways, so I am not sure what the difference would be.
Jess, so you’re against abortion unless the mother’s life is in danger?
What is the chief cause of ectopic pregnancy anyway? Does anybody know?
So your criteria for personhood is dependency on another.
Hope you remember that through out your life Jess and especially when you’re into old age (if you live that far). We are all dependent upon each other to more or lesser extent.
Once you set limits on when and what makes a human being a person, then, where do you draw the line?
What if 50 years from now we can keep an 8 wk unborn child alive? Should we draw the line of personhood there?
With every action, intent is of paramount importance. If you are operating on the mother to save her life for example in the case of an ectopic pregnancy or to save her from some life threatening condition re: her uterus, and the baby will die as a result of this process – this is not wrong.
However, any procedure with the INTENTION of deliberately taking the life of the unborn child is morally illicit.
This is not a Catholic position. This has always been the tradition and thinking of Western ethics the past 2000 years or so and before it Judaic wisdom. It is an inherently HUMAN position.
The Catholic position is that direct abortion is always wrong. An operation intended to save the life of the mother which results in an indirect, unavoidable abortion can be morally acceptable, however. This is an extreme oversimplification, but that’s the basic idea.
“The Catholic Church only allows the woman’s life to be saved if the fallopian tube is also removed (salpingectomy) with the fetus! The explanation of course is based on the doctrine of double effect. In the case of salpingectomy, it is considered that the main intent is to safe the life of the mother (hence the removal of the fallopian tube), while the removal of the fetus – which “happens” to be in the fallopian tube that is removed – is considered the unintended secondary effect.”
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/abortion.html
Causes
An ectopic pregnancy occurs when baby starts to develop outside the womb (uterus). The most common site for an ectopic pregnancy is within a fallopian tube. However, in rare cases, ectopic pregnancies can occur in the ovary , the stomach area, and the cervix .
An ectopic pregnancy is usually caused by a condition that blocks of slows the movement of a fertilized egg through the fallopian tube to the uterus. This may be caused by a physical blockage in the tube.
Most cases are a result of scarring caused by a past infection in the fallopian tubes, surgery of the fallopian tubes, or a previous ectopic pregnancy . Up to 50% of women who have ectopic pregnancies have had inflammation of the fallopian tubes (salpingitis) or pelvic inflammatory disease ( PID ).
Some ectopic pregnancies can be due to birth defects of the fallopian tubes, endometriosis , complications of a ruptured appendix, or scarring caused by previous pelvic surgery . In a few cases, the cause is unknown.
Sometimes, a woman will become pregnant after having her tubes tied ( tubal sterilization ). The risk of an ectopic pregnancy due to this procedure may reach 60%. Women who have had successful surgery to reverse tubal sterilization in order to become pregnant also have an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy.
Taking hormones, specifically estrogen and progesterone (such as those in birth control pills), can slow the normal movement of the fertilized egg through the tubes and lead to ectopic pregnancy .
Women who have in vitro fertilization or who have an intrauterine device (IUD) using progesterone also have an increased risk of ectopic pregnancy.
The “morning after pill” (emergency contraception) has been linked to some cases of ectopic pregnancy .
Ectopic pregnancies occur from 1 in every 40 to 1 in every 100 pregnancies.
Often ectopic pregnancy is caused by scarred tubes due to infection.
Infections from abortions (not surprisingly), STDs in particular chlamydia infections which often go undiagnosed.
Elizabeth, here you are.
Thanks John for making it simple (doubt it will help though).
Jess, from your link:
“Closely related to its biblical and traditional hatred of women and sex is the position of the Roman Catholic Church on abortion and contraception”
Great… so the atheists accuse us of hating women, and the Protestants accuse us of worshipping one. Hehe.
And you can really tell how much Catholics hate sex when you see a Catholic family which fills up the entire freaking pew at Mass.
John, LOL!
John, that’s too funny.
And you can really tell how much Catholics hate sex when you see a Catholic family which fills up the entire freaking pew at Mass.
Lol I know right!
Thanks for the info. Heather and Patricia!
I wonder where Hal’s got to? Maybe he’s lurking……..
l-u-r-k-i-n-g.
good evening to all
I’m off to take my daughter to theory lessons
“Your 85-year-old mother who advocated killing all her future medical caregivers should step to the back of the health care line to be fair, Sally.”
Add you, Jill, will be the first to give up your rations of food or clean water when you and your ilk overpopulate the planet beyond carrying capacity?
Well someone has to keep those animals clean. I’m sorry you feel that her job somehow makes her beneath you. I knew a very kind and funny man who was a janitor in my elementary school. He always had a kind word for us when we were sad.
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 3:26 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gee, I thought I had a BS and an RVT, as well as being credetialed in DNA testing and cryobanking. My boss has decided that a small herd of us need to learn magnetic resonance imaging technology, too.
But then – just like nursing – there are always the turds…
phylosopher:
yeah we are really overpopulating the planet esp. when most Western nations are below replacement level for population
Top news story in Canada today (btw Canada is MOSTLY an EMPTY country): where will we get our workers to support our aging population?
For the first time EVER there are the same number of over-40 workers and under-40 workers.
I don’t think Jill has ANYTHING to worry about!
Let’s hope her children have more than 1.3 children!
Since when couldn’t you get an ectopic pregnancy taken care of? That is VERY different than what we are talking about here and you know it Jess.
Posted by: Elizabeth at March 4, 2008 3:53 PM
In Guatemala, abortion is banned with no exceptions – and the lives of women carrying ectopic pregnancies are risked because surgery is delayed so that the doctor doesn’t face abortion charges. NY Times article. Seems similar to the South Dakota law your side tried to enact – yeah, antichoicers really care about women all right.
Add you, Jill, will be the first to give up your rations of food or clean water when you and your ilk overpopulate the planet beyond carrying capacity?
Posted by: phylosopher at March 4, 2008 5:02 PM
The sky is falling!!!! The sky is falling!!!
phylosopher, didn’t you know that women are being molested, raped, and killed in Americas abortion clinics today? What do you care about women?
Patricia, please try to think outside the very narrow confines of your own obviously urban experience.
Much of what you call “empty” is not suitable for widescale human habitation without causing massive degradation to the total environment. The (over) populated desert Southwest is an example – they have lowered the aquifers to such an extent that there are now fights between states and users over water. It is also not arable – can’t be farmed. If humans try to do that, we end up with Depression era dustbowls.
As for elder care/support, I counter with another article from yesterday’s paper that Japan is designing robots to handle many jobs. We already have one in widespread use in the U.S. The alarmist elder care/support argument is essentially a dead horse – please stop beating it.
“phylosopher, didn’t you know that women are being molested, raped, and killed in Americas abortion clinics today? What do you care about women?”
Children are being raped and molested in Catholic Churches by Catholic priests what are you going to do about it?
Father Frank Pavone on ectopic pregnancy:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/questions/index.html
Gee, I thought I had a BS and an RVT, as well as being credetialed in DNA testing and cryobanking. My boss has decided that a small herd of us need to learn magnetic resonance imaging technology, too.
But then – just like nursing – there are always the turds…
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 5:05 PM
It’s obvious you have no idea how to interact with humans.
You honestly remind me of these apes that were caged in a local zoo and whoever came by to just see them would pelted with monkey dung.
BTW, I could give a rat’s butt what you do.
phylosopher, please answer me.
“I wonder where Hal’s got to? Maybe he’s lurking……..”
Howdy.
Children are being raped and molested in Catholic Churches by Catholic priests what are you going to do about it?
Posted by: Jess at March 4, 2008 5:41 PM—————– First of all, why are you guys so hung up on priests? Second, I’d say arrest them, and never let them see the light of day again!..I don’t see you saying the same thing about corrupt abortionists!
“I don’t see you saying the same thing about corrupt abortionists!”
I say arrest them and never let them see the light of day again.
Sandy, I couldn’t have said it better myself. How was DC?
Heather, your response is, per usual, an illogical non sequitor. But knowing you are still young and your brain is still developing, there should still be hope that you can learn, so here goes:
If females or males are being raped or molested anywhere, that particular facility should be investigated and those individuals responsible prosecuted and jailed.
The entire class of such facilities, or even that particular one, should not be closed down, however. That would be akin to arguing that all Catholic Churches should be closed down- based on the actions of some priests towards some children, or that certain parishes should be shutdown because molestation occured there.
Your implication would be that those who don’t advocate such closures don’t care that children are being molested in Catholic Churches.
Okay Hal, you’ve got me on your side now!
phylos, you’re gonna have to do better than that. I can post story after story about corrupt abortionists, so don’t give me this lame song and dance about “I care about women.” Do you care to challenge me?
Gee, I thought I had a BS and an RVT, as well as being credetialed in DNA testing and cryobanking. My boss has decided that a small herd of us need to learn magnetic resonance imaging technology, too.
But then – just like nursing – there are always the turds…
Posted by: FetusFascist at March 4, 2008 5:05 PM
Gee, I could fill a lot of space listing my degrees and professional credentials too.
But I won’t.
First Heahter, you do not have permission to shorten my name – assuming familiarity when you haven’t been invited to is rude.
“phylos, you’re gonna have to do better than that. I can post story after story about corrupt abortionists, so don’t give me this lame song and dance about “I care about women.” Do you care to challenge me?”
Second:
“heather,you’re gonna have to do better than that. I can post story after story about molesting priests, so don’t give me this lame song and dance about “I care about children.” Do you care to challenge me?”
And the point would be?
I think we both have better things to do – at least I do. Bon soir.
Gee, I could fill a lot of space listing my degrees and professional credentials too.
But I won’t.
Posted by: Anonymous at March 4, 2008 6:08 PM
Anon,
Imagine all those degrees just to learn how to change a kitty litter box and scoop dog &*it out of a kennel. Someone should really tell her she got totally ripped off. I hope she didn’t go into too much debt with student loans. I can’t imagine you’d get paid too much for working in animal &%it all day long.
Actually phylosopher, I live in rural Ontario,Canada. There’s nothing but miles and miles of beautiful inhabitable countryside around me!
In Europe, there are now vast stretches of empty land which are being reclaimed by wolves and bears. Russia, the Ukraine and other eastern European states have empty, deserted villages and towns – there is no one to populate these areas.
I think you’ve been watching I Robot too much!
Thanks but no thanks, I don’t want a robot cutting material for me at the fabric store, filling my car with gas, taking my order at a lovely 4 star restaurant, delivering my baby or writing up a speeding ticket.
For sure robots have their uses.
Funny thing you should bring up Japan. Japan’s society is on the verge of collapse. They have no young people to care for the rapidly aging population and they’ve had abortion for decades before the west.
China has an inverted pyramid of 1 child looking after 2 parents and 4 grandparents after their wonderful experiment in forced abortions and sterilizations.
You can’t expect to abort millions of children a year for decades on end and see no effect on society and demographics. Or maybe we have been eliminating only the criminal element (sorry Hal).
It’s not rocket science to figure it out. But then, neither is the fact that abortion kills a baby and 40 years later we’re still debating this point with people who can’t think for themselves.
Hal,
did you check out abort73.com?
Or did you just not bother because you really don’t care or want to know?
Funny you never answered.
what’s that saying again…..”ignorance is bliss”
Actually Sally it’s interesting that YOU lumped your elderly mom in with what you termed “embryos” and “brain dead”.
Maybe it’s YOUR attitude that needs reorienting and not the prolife people on this board.
Posted by: Patricia at March 4, 2008 2:56 PM
………………………
Yeah, I’m the self professed mouthpiece of god that posts the crap that you have a problem with.
Sally said, “Her last was born in 1965 well before abortion was unbanned.”
Are you saying had abortion been legal she would have aborted? Was that you by any chance?
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 4, 2008 11:46 AM
…………………….
Holy crap Jill. You are quite the dullard aren’t you. Worries about the Peoria water and food supply contaminations do trace back to the 60s. Do you have an uncontrollable urge to heard cattle over cliffs? Yes, I think that you do.
What is the chief cause of ectopic pregnancy anyway? Does anybody know?
Posted by: Elizabeth at March 4, 2008 4:04 PM
STDs increase risk
Anon,
Imagine all those degrees just to learn how to change a kitty litter box and scoop dog &*it out of a kennel. Someone should really tell her she got totally ripped off. I hope she didn’t go into too much debt with student loans. I can’t imagine you’d get paid too much for working in animal &%it all day long.
Posted by: Sandy at March 4, 2008 6:58 PM
Personally I respect people who do their best at their job. I certainly have respect for people caring for animals, as well as trash collectors and day care workers etc. I feel they are contributing to society. It sounds to me like FF’s work with animals is worthwhile and I have no reason to think his/her work is not well done. I also think that FF says things in an offensive way even though it isn’t necessary. I don’t think we should follow that mode of expression. I don’t get the listing of degrees etc. But of course I don’t think my degrees and certifications make me better than anyone else or that anyone cares what they may be. I do know plenty of people with far less education than I have whom I admire far more than myself and far more than many of the highly educated opportunistic folks who use what they have achieved to look down on others rather than to lift them up. I spent years in public education and had the privilege of serving a range of abilities including students smarter than I am and some with learning disabilities and many with varied abilities. I feel we all can benefit from lifting one another up even those with whom we disagree on a particular issue.
Actually Patricia I was reading this file from your provincial gov’t. which has recently signed a pact with my state gov’t to protect the Great Lakes from depredation of the water supply by Southwestern states and others – tankers of water to the Saudis, e.g.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/MNR/water/publications/OLWR_2003.pdf
Russian population decline factors include illness and disease, sterility – remember Chernobyl? – and a shorter life span, along with a reluctance on the part of those of childbearing age to procreate in uncertain political climes – not to mention a high emmigration- presumably for the same reasons.
Japan has long had a land shortage-which they have wisely and widely recognized, voluntarily reducing their reproductive rates among other measures to conserve land. Elder emmigration is also encouraged.
Will there be some bumps along the road to decreased population, certainly, just as the baby boom caused economic and other problems – think school capacity, for one. But once the population has been reduced to sustainable replacement levels, life goes on, better for all.
And BTW, that thinking for oneself line was really rich – coming from someone like you who takes her marching orders from the Catholic (lay people are too stupid to read the Bible on their own) Church.
“phylos, I shortened your name. lol. Deal with it:]…Come on. Aren’t you up for a good debate. I WILL win!!
hippie, I generally agree with you, but FF makes fun of everyone here. She has put everyone down, and she is always boasting about her degree. I really agree that she needs to tone it down.
FF has been especially cruel to Elizabeth. Why? If you are so happy with your life, why do you speak so much hatred to others? You should be congratulating Elizabeth for studying to be a nurse. She wants to help people.
I am almost always up for a good debate – unfortunately you are mentally incapable of providing the opposing side – deal with it:-)!
Sally, the prolifers are putting your mother in excellent company — you forget, prolifers actually VALUE unborn children and those with disabilities. We don’t consider them garbage.
reality, how can you combine being “prochoice” with “respecting women”? The prochoice stand is that women are inherently inferior to men and need surgery to be equal. How much more misogynist can you get?
I am no fan of FF,believe me. I just don’t agree with taunting someone because their job is “cleaning feces”. There are plenty of honorable people out there who do the jobs that need to do done that none of us would want to do. I respect people that work hard at whatever they do. I don’t agree with FF when she does it and I don’t agree with prolifers when they do it.
I am almost always up for a good debate – unfortunately you are mentally incapable of providing the opposing side – deal with it:-)!
Posted by: phylosopher at March 5, 2008 1:31 AM———- That’s a cop out if I’ve ever seen one. You cannot win against me.
To posters offended by remarks to RFF:
I wanted to post something this morning to clarify my statements towards RFF and her job since it appears I am coming across in a manner that makes me look disrespectful to those who make a living at service orientated jobs.
Do I believe what I write in my posts to her regarding her job? Absolutely not.
She is so keen on sticking it to people where she knows where it matters most to them and in such a superior way and with so much hurt it just angers me.
My posts were to attack something that she obviously cares about.I want her to feel the hurt when someone goes after something that she obviously cares about. So I chose to go after her job.
I have no reason in my life to judge anyone for the jobs they hold. I grew up on a cattle farm which in addition to daily chores included many hard laborious tasks I was happy to do. I bailed hay in the summers, herded cattle, helped put up an 80 acre fence line, cleaned barns and helped vets with inoculations, breeding and calving.
My family also bailed hay and sent it down to farms in the south to those who were hit hardest by drought so their animals would be fed for the winters.
I was always grateful to the vets, their techs and assistants for coming to the rescue of hurt and sick animals my family grew to love.
I also stepped in many cow pies along the way.
My intent was not to attack THE job, just her personal attachment to her job, just as she feels free to attack people on this site for issues that matter most to them.
Often ectopic pregnancy is caused by scarred tubes due to infection.
Infections from abortions (not surprisingly), STDs in particular chlamydia infections which often go undiagnosed.
Posted by: Patricia at March 4, 2008 4:09 PM
………………………
Damn girl. Don’t ever give birth. You will die for sure!
Sandy, I totally understand.
Good idea!
P.S. A U realy girl?
Good idea!
P.S. A U realy girl?
Good idea!
P.S. A U realy girl?
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