New poll/Old poll
The new poll question is up:
Should the international community boycott the Beijing Olympic Games due to China’s recent crackdown against Tibet and/or its forced one-child-per-family policy?
Responses to last week’s poll surprised me. I didn’t expect so many to think aborting mothers should be considered criminals. Perhaps this shows true thoughts of pro-lifers; perhaps it shows how some pro-aborts think pro-lifers should think…
I’ve adjusted the map showing your brightly colored voting flags to include Canada. I’ve also boxed a map of world votes in the upper right hand corner. Click to enlarge:
As always, please make comments to either the old or new poll here, not at the Vizu website.
Mar.29, 2008 8:03 am |
Polls |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I am also surprised by the results. I think that some prolifers are afraid to admit that they think the women would be prosecutable murders. I am not one of those. Good to know that some prolifers want equal justice for the unborn child. It is one thing to say that the law would be impossible to enforce or that we would never get abortion illegalized if we insist on it. It is another thing altogether to say that it shouldn’t even be on the table.
Both born and unborn children deserve to be protected from violence either committed by or sanctioned by their own parents.
Jill, China no longer has a one-child-per-family policy. Your poll question is inaccurate.
No, China still has their one child policy. The previous comment from that one guy in China was revoked by someone else in their government. They still force abortions and they still kill baby girls before birth.
Leah, no, you’re inaccurate unless you have information subsequent to March 11:
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/03/chinas_1child_p.html
It is ironic that 60% of those who want abortion re-criminalized apparently do not want to face the logical consequences.
Treating women seeking a abortion which has become the crime of murder as a “victim” is as illogical as treating a buyer of cocaine as a “victim” and the dealer as a criminal. Obviously, there would be no abortion providers without customers, just as there could be no cocaine dealers without customers.
The explanation for the 60% of those who want abortion recriminalized, but who would not treat women having abortions as criminals may be that they can’t personally tolerate the logical consequences of the implementation of their policy, or realize that they cannot “sell” their plan to the rest of the public while advocating the imprisoning or execution of women who violate the law.
The crazies, who advocate death for the women are at least being logically consistent.
There’s drug rehab for cocaine users, and women seeking abortion should be givn mental health counseling similar to that given to people with suicidal tendencies.
While I am loathe to have women charged in abortions I think that if there were such a law in place, the circumstances surrounding the procurement of the abortion are important.
And society will have to educated on fetal development and there will have to be significant resources put in place to help women who face pregnancy, including laws for maternity leave and benefits.
“There’s drug rehab for cocaine users”
They still go to prison.
where’s the box to check if you don’t think they’re a victim or a murderer?
“And society will have to educated on fetal development and there will have to be significant resources put in place to help women who face pregnancy, including laws for maternity leave and benefits.”
We already educate children in schools on fetal development, and by the last part I assume you share my progressive views, even though it would raise taxes significantly.
How utterly ridiculous! It’s absurd to think that pro-lifers actually care about life, particularly that of children considering the high number of children that would be left without a mother (or do you prosecute the father too?) in the case she was criminalized for it.
After all, nearly half of all abortions are done by women who already have children.
This is what irks me most about pro-lifers. Your argument is noble, but completely and utterly lacking in real-life sense.
Jess,
You learned all about fetal development in school? I am curious.
Edyt,
You brought up a very valid point about fathers. What is their part? What if they really wanted that baby? Sorry to irk you. I love that word.
Edyt: There are plenty of mothers in prision. A person should not get a pass, for whatever crime they may commit, just because they are a mother. Same goes for fathers too. Don’t you think it is just a little bit sexist to say that mothers in general get a pass because they are mothers?
“Sorry to irk you. I love that word.”
Well happy birthday!
Baby baby baby baby kicking baby sticky baby baby baby laughing baby baby baby smelly baby soft baby warm baby baby baby.
“Jess,
You learned all about fetal development in school? I am curious.”
Yes but then again I was a good student who just sat there and listened and wanted to learn.
I wonder how many parents who are jailed for child abuse have children. My guess would be all of them because they are jailed for abusing THEIR CHILDREN. (caps for emphasis, not yelling)
New studies are actually saying it’s usually better to keep the children with their real parents when they all undergo counseling.
Besides what about the alleged abusers who are actually innocent? I have heard of cases where children have brittle bone syndrome or other rare disorders and they’re taken away from their parents.
Truthseeker 11:50 There are about 400,000 people in prison in the US for cocaine possession who would love to have gotten into rehab instead.
Too bad for them you are not the judge and your position is not the law.
Another analogy for the advocates of criminalization of abortion as murder: A woman hires a hit man to kill her husband, since he is an annoyance. 60% of you would prosecute the hitman for murder, but would treat the woman as a “victim” and maybe give her some “counseling”?
Jess: Not if children are in immediate danger, which is sometimes the case. I do not know of a child protective service agency that believes that it would be better for children who are in immediate danger to stay with their parents. Especially in cases of severe physical or sexual abuse.
Jess: It is part of public policy to protect children from abuse. The cases of false accusations do not negate our moral responsibilty to protect children. There are cases of innocent people being imprisioned for rape. This doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t prosecute and imprision people for rape.
should read *imprison and imprisoned*
Carla, going further than that… what if the father pressured/forced the mother? Is he an accomplice in a crime or is the mother now a victim?
What if the mother was pressured/forced by religious leaders/parents/doctors/etc? Who is responsible?
Carrie, no I do not think being a mother gives you a get out of jail free card or anything like that, but how many abortions take place in a day? Are you going to send all those people to jail? And what happens to their children?
Essentially, by jailing the mother, you are saying she is unfit to take care of children. (Often those children end up in foster care)
While this is certainly true for a majority of women in prison (who do drugs or commit crimes), this may not be the case for someone who simply decided they were not able to care for one more child. That is not to say they are or are not a good mother.
Edyt: I do see your point, but there is also the deterrence factor to consider. To me, as a prolifer, it isn’t just as simple as saying that they just decided that they didn’t want another child. I have heard of many cases of a parent murdering one child, but not the other. Perhaps in these cases the parent decided that they were not able to care for one more child. Doesn’t mean that they should get a pass, does it? Jailing for any crime is about justice and deterrence.
Edyt: If it is any consolation, I am in the minority concerning my views on this subject. It is my duty as a survivor of severe child abuse to speak-up for those that don’t have a voice. I consider abortion a form of violence inflicted on children by their parents. Therefore, even if my viewpoints cause me to be reviled by prolifers and prochoicer alike, I will continue to express them. It isn’t about me. It is about the little ones.
Carrie… what if you could spare a child from being raised in an abusive home?
I too, was raised in an abusive home, through it wasn’t a physically-abusive situation — much harder to prove and extract a child from that sort of environment.
Part of the reason I don’t want to have children is because my mother was so emotionally abusive, and I know her father was physically and emotionally abusive, and so on. My choice to not have children is my way of breaking the cycle.
Does that mean I should “keep my legs shut”? That I’m a slut for having sex without the intention of getting pregnant? I think I have perfectly valid reasons for not having children. I love kids so much I don’t want to ever, even accidentally or subconsciously inflict violence upon them that would stay with them until adulthood like my family’s abuses have stayed with me.
And yes, that means I would have an abortion if I got pregnant.
A father who wants a baby that the mother willingly consented to conceive should have legal redress.
A father who encourages a woman to commit abortion should be held as an accomplice under the law.
Also, I’ve said this before but…
I’d be pro-life if… scientists came up with a way to extract the baby pre-birth in a way that it could still survive and be implanted in someone else or grow in a lab until infancy.
Rules:
1. I have no obligation or requirement to the child.
2. The child is not allowed to contact me.
3. What happens to the child is your responsiblity from now on.
See, it’s sort of like adoption, but it means the woman doesn’t have to go through the remaining pregnancy and birth (which can be harmful to her relationships/job/education).
What do you think, pro-lifers? Would you fund something like this?
(Sidenote: As I am pro-child and all that, you need to figure out a way to ensure these children families and homes to make this idea successful)
Edyt,
Abortion is child abuse to the nth power. The only way to stop the cycle of abuse is to have children and love them.
Edyt,
One post says you would love kids but because you were abused you believe that you would abuse your own children. At that point you sounded like you could be a loving mother some day. Then in your next post you look upon pregnancy like a disease to rid yourself of becuase you would be burdened with and bothered by a child? Will the real Edyt please take steps forward.
Edyt,
One post says you would love kids but because you were abused you believe that you would abuse your own children. At that point you sounded like you could be a loving mother some day. Then in your next post you look upon pregnancy like a disease to rid yourself of becuase you would be burdened with and bothered by a child. ?????? Will the real Edyt please take TWO steps forward.
Truthseeker,
My grandfather was abused. My mother was abused. I was abused.
I cannot promise I would not abuse a child, even unintentionally or subconsciously, just because abuse is something that has been engrained in my family.
I love kids, but I don’t think I’d make a good mother. Therefore, I opt out.
However, this is my personal choice and I know others have different feelings as to whether they want kids and why they do/do not.
Plus, since my boyfriend wants children, I’ve told him that if we ever end up married (a long long time from now!) and if the desire to have children ever does happen, I wouldn’t mind adopting.
However, he gets to be the stay at home dad! :)
Edyt,
My wife was abused. She would never let our children be abused and she does not abuse them.
I am thinking you worry about abusing your chldren less then you worry about the burden a pregnancy, or a child for that matter, would be to your lifestyle. I guess you should say your “lifestyle” means more to you then any child could. You said “I love kids”, but it would be more honset to say “I love kids that I don’t need to be responsible for”. Truth be told you are more worried about how caring for a child would cramp your plans.
Since you don’t have access to my head or heart, all I can say is… I’m sorry that you feel that way.
Jill’s goal in life is to have abortion criminalized as murder, but she (and many other anti-choice extremists) apparently refuse to take the next logical step.
If abortion is murder, then an induced abortion is first degree murder, since it is necessarily planned in advance. The presumptive sentence for first degree murder in every state is at least 20 years to life, or death.
Thus you cannot logically advocate the criminalization of abortion as murder without also advocating sentencing the woman who had the abortion to at least 20 years.
In this poll about 40% are fully willing to do this, so at least they are consistent and logical in their thought process.
The other 60%, want to treat a knowing murderer as a “victim”, give them “counseling” or some trivial criminal penalty.
Does anyone in the 60% wish to explain this apparent inconsistency?
Edyt: I am very sorry to hear that someone hurt you. Just know that you are not tainted by your abuse or your abusers. I know that I am glad I was born eventhough I experienced abuse as a child. If I could go back in time and erase my existence with an abortion, I would not and I hope that you wouldn’t do that to yourself.
Edyt: Another thing to consider. In the past, children were considered part of their parents or property of their parents. Much in the same way the unborn children are considered part of their mother,imo. That is one of the reasons that child abuse wasn’t considered child abuse.
Edyt: My views on premartial sex and contraception are different from some prolifers. (In my mind, I just agree to disagree with prolifers who object). So, I do not consider you a “slut” for having premartial sex.
If we clean up the adoption system it would make it a lot easier for mothers who do not want children but are faced with a tough pregnancy.
Carrie, we need more “unconventional” pro-lifers..branching out, ya’ll.
There is NO truer love you will find in life than the joy of holding and loving the child you would abort. Your career will never compare. It is worth more than all the “sex” you could have. Plain and simple these babies are in front of your eyes and you say you care them.
Then how is it you have the point of view that allows you to destroy such a gift of God and not allow yourself to comprehend the insanity and intriniscally evil nature of your “point of view”. You blind yourself to the obvious like the simple fact that from the point of conception that baby is a new life of it’s own and is not a part of a woman’s body. And thank God for Jill Stanek who insists all babies deserve lives of their own.
Hey folks,
this is a great discussion, but it is wrong because only ‘one’ solution is proposed and this pits pc vs pl. There is an option though that should work in this very circumstance.
For decades a war waged in South Africa called apartheid. It was a race war and there was much violence and even much murder. Over the course of this travesty, it became obvious that every person (not only the people in South Africa) had been negatively influenced by these laws … their civility towards their fellow citizens had shifted to viewing each other as oppressors and victims … very similar to he abused/abuser roles written above.
So the people of South Africa knew they could live with these stupid horrors for literally centuries (as in Northern Ireland) OR they could get-on with living. So they instituted The Truth and Reconciliation Commission. At the Commission, all people who gave evidence were given amnesty – no matter how atrocious their involvement.
I think that this kind of resolution does indeed assist and would help nations very much in need of healing … from abortion …. from civil war
Edyt – I’m sorry that you were abused when you were growing up, but apparently it has impacted your thinking.
Here’s some advice – get real with your boyfriend. I mean really heart to heart like you never have in your life. If he wants children and you have no intention of physically bearing them, to the point of abortion, then all you’re doing is rejecting him without telling him directly. Be directly honest, lay it out and then leave him. That would be the most loving thing you could do for him. Don’t look back either.
Whether you know it or not, your abortion viewpoint has already poisoned your relationship, because seeds of the unknown have been sown into his history with you. If you’ve had pre-marital sex with him, then he’ll always wonder if you ever aborted a child of his. I often wonder about this myself.
A woman knows, but guys don’t. We must trust the woman entirely. But the very issue of trust when it comes to his child, you’re rejecting wholesale. It’s irrelevant whether he knows it has happened or not, or even whether you ever got pregnant or not. Men simply don’t know. But you sowed a doubt. That doubt will only grows over time, and it will be like an undercurrent in your relationship. He won’t be able to voice it immediately, but one day it might come roaring back from deep within, and the results will be completely and perhaps violently unpredictable. Abortion is violence no matter how you try to justify it.
If you’ve already aborted his child, seek professional counsel, but let him know. He needs to be respected as a man in this regard, and the national law fails utterly in this regard to this aspect of abortion.
I know I’ve blasted your position on abortion, but my attacks are leveled at the ideas you hold and not at you personally. If I’ve failed in that regard, tell me how I’ve attacked you directly, and please forgive me.
My passion for life, in all it’s forms, may sometimes fog the clarity of delivery for the cause for life, and it may not always look like love, but this advice should.
The subject of the poll was whether criminal penalties should be imposed on a woman having an abortion if it were re-criminalized.
I submitted at 11:40, 12:33 and 2:52, that the only logical position for those advocating re-criminalization is that any woman having an abortion must go to prison for at least 20 years, and invited the 60% in the poll who apparently disagreed to respond.
There was little or no response. Could it be that a majority of the anti-choice crowd is uncomfortable with the logical consequences of the change in the law they so passionately advocate?
If so, maybe they should re-think their position.
Chris, thanks for your concern! And don’t let my past influence your way of looking at me. I only said it to make a point, not to get people to pity me. Seriously. I’m over it.
I have “gotten real” with my boyfriend. He knows my views (he too is pro-choice) and we’ve had long discussions about having children/not having children. We both understand that now is not the time for either of us to have children, so it’s not a deal-breaker in our relationship.
We also realize love is about compromise. He understands why I don’t want to have children and has told me that he loves me enough to remain childless if it means we can be together. I have also told him that I understand his desire to have children, and though I would like to wait until I’m older to make that decision, I would be willing to adopt one or two children if I ever felt “ready” to support and love them.
Both of us believe our relationship is not dependent on whether or not I produce his kids.
Yes, we’ve had sex, and no, he does not wonder if I ever got an abortion. As he is pro-choice as well, I would have no difficulty whatsoever talking to him about whether or not to keep the child. Good communication is key to a relationship. I do not hide things from him and he does not hide things from me. He does not doubt me when I say I have never had an abortion, and he does not spend his time wondering if I ever will. Plus, we spend a fairly large part of our lives together, so I think he would notice!
Anyway, right now we’re content with the kitties and our simple little lives, so having kids is not a big issue for either of us.
Edyt: Don’t worry. No pity here. Gloves off per usual when we meet on other posts. :)
Haha, wouldn’t have it any other way.
Carrie 12:39, that’s why I said usually.
Paying another person to commit a crime is itself a crime. It’s called “solicitation”.
If doing abortions were illegal, even ASKING for an abortion would also be illegal.
There’s no way around it.
Jess: Sorry.
Check this out, everybody. Something every informed person who cares about abortion needs to know.
http://www.medicationabortion.com/misoprostol/index.html
“Carrie, we need more “unconventional” pro-lifers..branching out, ya’ll.”
Agreed!
S
SoMG -Misoprostol (Pfizer’s Cytotec) can actually rupture the uterus if used after 8 weeks – explict warnings here on page 3.
Dangerous stuff that few seem to know.
I didn’t until I came across the label.
“Has been reported” means it’s a rare complication.
“Has been reported” means it’s a rare complication.
I’m sure that’s a very nice comfort for the family member of the one it “complicated”
Many times less dangerous than full-term childbirth.
Edyt,
I am very sorry that you were abused and don’t feel that you would be a good mother to your “biological” children. That being said, what exactly would be different for you if you adopted children? Because they weren’t biologically your’s, you would be less likely to abuse them in your mind?
I’m asking in a genuine manner of course, no meanness intended.
No, like I said earlier, I understand that my boyfriend wants children and I would want him to be the primary caregiver.
I am equally as hesitant to adopt or birth children, but I am open to the idea of adopting IF I ever get to the place where I feel I’m ready and can totally love the child the way it needs to be.
In other words, I don’t believe in just popping out kids and being all, “oops, well, I guess I’ll love it, since I have to.”
Okay, but what I mean is why are you more willing to adopt then birth children?
If you ever get to the place where you feel ready for kids, why would you adopt over birthing your own?
Because I feel there are too many unwanted children in the world and I think it’s selfish to prefer biological children.
I also want to adopt a non-white child, because obviously, white babies are adopted at a much faster rate than non-white children are. I’ve also thought about adopting older children, but I’m not too sure, since I’ve never had them before and wouldn’t know what to expect.
Again, this is all very hypothetical, since I cannot be sure I want them at all, and certainly not at this point in my life.
Since I’m such a huge pro-child advocate, I believe in practicing what I preach. ;)
Because I feel there are too many unwanted children in the world and I think it’s selfish to prefer biological children.
This is true, but I don’t think it’s selfish to want biological children. It’s beautiful and natural.
There is this girl in my speech class who, along with her 3 sisters, was adopted into a family that had fostered over 40 children!!! I thought that was awesome!
While I do think adoption is great, I would like a couple more of my own as well.
If I ever get married, I will adopt and have my own as well. I obviously have no problem with adopting minority children so it wouldn’t be an issue with me. ;) I love allll children. There is this couple 2 houses down from me who are white and have 2 twin black daughters. I love them, they are the cutest!!!
PIP – you said:
If we clean up the adoption system it would make it a lot easier for mothers who do not want children but are faced with a tough pregnancy.
I whole heartedly agree. That is why International adoption is so popular.
Domestic adoption is difficult. I have friends who were matched 3 times and were at the hospital for the birth and the birthmother decided to keep the baby. While they totally understood, they were heartbroken. On try number 4, they finally were able to adopt a baby girl. They were there for the birth and the hospital even let her stay in the hospital. That is the beauty of an open adoption.
I’d like to see more open adoptions. I think it helps the birthmom know that her baby is going to a good home. I know of some where the birthmom sends birthday cards. On the other hand, it allows the adoptive parents know about the baby’s history. This way, when the child gets older and wants to know about theie background, they can tell him/her.
Truth be told you are more worried about how caring for a child would cramp your plans.
Posted by: truthseeker March 29,2008 2:24 PM
***
Since you don’t have access to my head or heart, all I can say is… I’m sorry that you feel that way.
Posted by: Edyt at March 29, 2008 2:39 PM
************
Edyt,
I don’t need access to your head, all I have to do is read your posts. For example, see post below from 10:04 P.M. where you refer to “kids you pop out” as not being people, but you refer to them as an “it”.
“In other words, I don’t believe in just popping out kids and being all, “oops, well, I guess I’ll love it, since I have to.”
Posted by: Edyt at March 29, 2008 10:04 PM
Edyt, if you were pro-child and you loved children you would not try to dehumanize them. Pro-aborts often dehumanize the value of children in order to justify their selfishness in while they abuse/discarding them like they were non-persons. I don’t need to be in your head rto know you are anti-life, your post says you and your boyfriend have made a decision to remain childless even if it means killing your children.
Repent now.
TS:
How can one expect honesty from one who denies God?
Such a person is unimaniginably self-deceived and, if they can lie to themselves, they can lie to anyone, under any circumstance.
It’s truly a sad a pitiable state to be in.
Unfortunately this site serves as an enabler for them in that they encourage each other to walk the stupid.
Tara, I totally agree!!
Sorry Jill, my mistake. For a while they took away the policy, but I guess it’s been reinstated. In that case, here is my answer to the poll question:
YES! Boycott the Olympics! The government of China should horrify anyone who claims to be a humanitarian, or who even has a small bit of compassion for fellow humans. Forced abortions are DISGUSTING! The whole point of pro-choice is the choice! And don’t even get me started on TIBET! You KNOW things must be bad when Buddhist monks are violently protesting, and the Dalai Lama is threatening to not reincarnate (whether you believe it or not, this still makes a powerful statement, based on his own beliefs).
Come on, people! Wake up! The world has not been looking kindly on the US of late, and this is a great opportunity for us to stand up and show that we really do care about others in the world!
The world has not been looking kindly on the US of late
uhhh, news flash, Leah, many other countries in this world have hated us for a LONG, LONG time..mostly because we live in a free society.
But I agree…protest, protest, protest…I’m all about it.
Especially those bass-ackwards countries like China….they shouldn’t even be allowed to have the Olympics there.
Jill
I do not know if you remember me, but I have written to you before. I
work in a post abortion ministry here in NY called Lumina
http://www.postabortionhelp.org, and work co-developed and work with The
Sisters of Life in our post abortion ministry ?Entering Canaan?
http://sistersoflife.org/ec.htm. I also work with the Franciscan
Friars of the Renewal with whom we developed Men?s post abortive days
http://www.franciscanfriars.com/Events/canaan.htm and more recently,
days for those who aborted because of poor prenatal diagnosis.
I was struck by your poll about mothers who abort being criminals. In
all truth, I think the answer varies as much as the situations. The
first thing that came to my mind was an excerpt from Dave Reardon?s
book ?The Jericho Plan?. ?I believe that at least some of us are so
focused on what others need to learn that we are neglecting to see
what God may be asking us to learn. In short, before we can ask others
to see, we may still need to extract a plank or two from our own eyes.
I honestly believe that, short of Christ?s return, God will not bring
an end to the abortion holocaust until we Christians learn all that we
are meant to learn, namely; greater compassion for sinners.?
Being a post abortive woman myself, and having seen my unborn son from a saline abortion I was pressured to undergo as a teen, no one knows more
than me the horrors of abortion. But many women are pressured to abort in many ways.
Where would the criminalization stop? With the doctors or moms, or perhaps the husband, boyfriends, parents or others who
push abortion? I do not pretend to know the answer and certainly have become more upset through the years as I have read the testimonies on some pro abortion sites of women who do not seem to care about the life within them at all.
And so, the thought that pro aborts would want pro lifers to feel that women should be prosecuted does not surprise me. If they know the
entire truth about abortion and continue to support it, it truly should be prosecuted, but they are the ones fighting legislation to
reveal all the truths and dangers of abortion, so who can be copeable?
To be sure, it is a complex situation with many twists and turns, but abortion itself is not complex. It always takes a human life and is wrong no matter what.
Reflecting on the countless women and men we have served, I cannot help but think that in the vast majority of the cases, I could never condemn them. We as a society have done women a great injustice in the name of womens rights. We have killed their children and tried to make it seem ok. In their hearts, they most often find this is not
true. While they carry a degree of responsibility, I think there is much to go around.
In the end, I do not know the answers. I do know that we will all stand before God one day, the ultimate judge and the only one who
knows the entire truth. On this Divine Mercy Sunday and every day, I
trust in His words to St Faustina, ?Let the greatest sinners place
their trust in My mercy. They have the right before others to trust in
the abyss of My mercy … write about My mercy towards tormented
souls. Souls that make an appeal to My mercy delight Me. To such souls
I grant even more graces than they ask. I cannot punish even the
greatest sinner if he makes an appeal to My compassion, but on the
contrary, I justify him in My unfathomable and inscrutable mercy. ?
Jesus I trust in You.
Thanks for all you do.
Theresa Bonopartis
uhhh, news flash, Leah, many other countries in this world have hated us for a LONG, LONG time..mostly because we live in a free society.
Wow. Now doesn’t that sound like it was fed to you straight out of Dick and Jane’s Guide to Being a Good Citizen. Pull your head out of your idealistic cloud and realize that people hate us for the things we do, not that we live in a free society. Give me a break!
Truthseeker, if all you have to go on is whether I use the word “it” as opposed to “him” or “her” then you don’t have much of an argument.
Theresa,
How do you think you should be punished for having your unborn baby murdered?
Death? Life in prison? How?
Wow. Now doesn’t that sound like it was fed to you straight out of Dick and Jane’s Guide to Being a Good Citizen. Pull your head out of your idealistic cloud and realize that people hate us for the things we do, not that we live in a free society. Give me a break!
uhh…not really, but you’re entitled to your opinion. People will always hate us, Leah..that’s not living in an idealistic cloud. Jealousy breeds hatred….many people who don’t live in free society’s are jealous of those who do…and there’s where the hate comes in. I am not saying the US is blameless in all it does….but I do acknowledge that freedom frightens power-hungry dictators, and they will manipulate negative images of our country to their advantage. You don’t think that happens? Manipulation is KEY for dictators to remain in power, duh!
Au contraire, American ignorance of the damage they inflict on other countries through our “good deeds” is what makes other people hate us. It really isn’t about jealousy.
I was traveling in Central America this winter and learned an awful lot about how the U.S. of A. messed up some economies for our own profit and angered/impoverished a lot of people. Frankly, it made me sick. These are things you’re not told by the media, things that aren’t published in our textbooks, but these people know a whole lot more about our history than we do.
And no, I don’t think they’re “jealous.” Most people didn’t seem to care how wealthy we were. But they sure as hell hated how we made them poorer and lorded our authority over them. Ohhh yeah.
I never said they were jealous of our money, Edyt. I said they were jealous of our freedom.
But really, if we’re such a bad nation, why do you live here? I mean besides being born here I’m assuming? But it’s not as though you couldn’t live somewhere else. And WHY are there so many people scrambling to get in here?
Nope…we’re not perfect…and I don’t even begin to think that we are…but I know people who weren’t born here who thank their lucky stars everyday they get to live here.
Edyt,
I am not just going by your referring to a child as an “it”, but that is very telling. Society respects people who “really” love children and respect mother’s who take care of their children. That is “love”. On the other hand, you and your boyfriend have made a decision to remain childless even if it means killing your children. I’ll say it again, there is NO truer love you will find in life than the joy of holding and loving the child you would abort. Your career could never compare. Any single child is more love and joy than all the “sex” you and your biyfriend could ever have.
HisMan,
it is pitiable to see, they are almost like the living dead. Living without ever really knowing the depths of self-sacrificial, unconditional love. Sharing our faith and the gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ without whom we would also be like them, the living dead.
Elizabeth, I’m saving up money to move out of the country … not an easy feat when our currency keeps dropping below other countries!
Also, I’m holding out for November in hopes the next prez will actually care about the people inside our country… but if not, there is always Canada! (Although I hope to not move there, I want to move to a warmer country)
Truthseeker, you may be right, but I don’t believe forcing me to give birth is a good way to show me the joy of loving children.
You don’t shove pecan pie down someone’s throat just to tell them it tastes good. And who knows? They could be allergic to nuts, and then wouldn’t YOU look like a jerk!?
Also, I’d appreciate it if you would restrain from judging my love life and career choices. It’s really difficult for me to remain civil when you constantly demean my choices.
Edyt,
As far as your love life or your career choices, they are your business and your choices to make. I was not trying to be judgemental, I was just pointing out that he mothers or fathers I know would gladly sacrifice their sex lives or their careers to save the lives of their children.
And I would not “force” you to give birth. I only ask that you post with more sensibility and sensitivity towards those of us who value the human life inside a pregnant mother. When you say you would choose abortion if you got pregnant, and then call yourself pro-child it makes a mockery of pro-life people and a mockery of the human lives destroyed by abortion.
SoMg
I said “In the end I do not know the answer”. My point was, I do not believe women are completely aware and stand alone in this. It is complex and there are many things to consider.
Looking at prosecution is just a way for those who support abortion any time, any way, for any reason, to try to get support to keep it legal just like they did with Roe vs Wade.
They made it seem like it was a great thing for women, yet they do not care about women at all. If they did they would not deny abortions impact, or state, like it does on a Planned Parenthood Teen Wire site that post abortion stress is “made up” by pro lifers. They would not go to extremes to deny the consequences many women feel, but instead they would be concerned about their welfare.
They would not be silent when women die from abortion, or when abortionists abuse patients. etc etc. Why aren’t they worried about the prosecution of those abortionists if they care about women so much? Instead they protect and defend
The whole issue is a diversion from the truth…that abortion hurts women and always kills an unborn child. Period.
Well said Anon.
More proof of the hate filled attitude antichoicers have towards women ….
Yes, the international community should boycott the Beijing olympics for the reasons cited, among others. But first they should deal with the beams in their own eyes…as should people like TR who persist in miscalling those who seek to protect women and children from the horror of induced abortion “anti-choice” (the babies don’t get a choice, and many of the mothers don’t feel that they have much real choice in the matter, either), “misogynists”, and other names that more accurately apply to those who support slaughtering children and mutilating women in “family planning clinics” in China and elsewhere.
If “legal personhood” is established for unborn humans, then there will be no need for any new laws regarding abortion. The old ones we have now will simply apply to the unborn in the same way they now apply to the born. Simple solution, total equality.
Doyle — Total equality is a great idea. Equality for everyone. Let’s lower the drinking age to conception too, so everyone has total equality.
But if those fetuses crash cars while drunk, they better be going to jail for it. I won’t stand for babies who drink and drive.
China’s on-child policy is an Orwellion outlawing of the family.
oops..that was one-child not on-child
Edyt: I won’t stand for babies who drink and drive.
In an increasing number of states, it is illegal for babies to drink and drive, and to talk on handheld cellphones while driving. I think that for New Jersey it became the case a month ago.
China’s one-child policy is an Orwellian outlawing of the family.
Truthseeker, to quibble a bit, I’d say it’s not outlawing of the family, just mandating smaller families for some.
Now that that’s over, yeah – it’s certainly against that freedom in society, and it does feel Orwellian to me. Right or wrong, good or bad though, it came about because of population pressure – something to think about.