They’re persons now
American Life League has released a compelling new video spotlighting the CO personhood amendment drive and also taking unnamed organizations to task for sitting on their hands or worse, opposing this voter initiative:
This seems like the right time to post a March 7 op ed by Judie Brown, also compelling, taking CO, GA, and MT Catholic bishops to task for opposing their state’s personhood amendment. I’ve included Judie’s column in its entirety on page 2.
The bishops are not alone. I am saddened that some of my good friends in the movement, with good organizations behind them, are contesting these efforts.
Back to the video, at its end ALL thanked bloggers – meaning you – for contacting YouTube when it unceremoniously yanked ALL’s previous video, Planned Parenthood sells sex, for its “inappropriate content” while leaving PP’s ads up that ALL was exposing. Sheesh. YouTube quickly responded to your complaints by reinstating the video.
We remain steadfast, but…
By Judie Brown
March 7, 2008
Over the last few weeks, something rather bizarre has occurred in the pro-life movement and it is difficult for me to get my arms around it. So, I have decided to share the puzzlement I am experiencing in the hopes that others, upon reading this, will join me in a fervent Lenten prayer for healing.
This past January 17, as a personhood proposal was being presented as a way to amend Georgia’s state constitution, the two bishops in that state made a public statement in opposition to it. They wrote, “As the Catholic bishops of Georgia we, along with our brother bishops throughout the world, have unceasingly advocated for the sanctity of human life and continually supported legislative efforts to increase protection of human life.”
They claim to agree with the “objectives” of the proposed state constitutional amendment but oppose the approach because it “does not provide a realistic opportunity for ending or reducing abortion in Georgia.”
A few weeks later, on February 26, the two Catholic bishops in Montana issued a statement expressing their views on a proposed personhood amendment to the Montana state constitution. They wrote, “We, the Catholic Bishops of Montana, remain steadfast in our commitment to defend human life in all of its stages, from conception to natural death.”
They went on to commend the “objective” of the efforts to amend the state’s constitution, but pointed out that they support efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution rather than the state’s. They wrote that they “do not believe that CI-100 is the most beneficial venue to pursue necessary change.” They listed several strategies which they deem appropriate at the state level, including funding pregnancy centers, providing support for expectant mothers and passing a law requiring parental notice with judicial bypass prior to a minor acquiring an abortion.
Two days later, the Colorado Catholic Conference issued a statement regarding the proposal by Colorado for Equal Rights to amend the Colorado state constitution with personhood language. In that statement, the Colorado Catholic Conference said, “We commend the goal of this effort to end abortion… but we do not believe that this year’s Colorado Personhood Amendment is the best means to pursue this issue at this time.”
The Colorado conference denied that any of the bishops had lent their support to the personhood initiative being promoted by Colorado for Equal Rights even though Bishop Tafoya, one of the three bishops in Colorado, had his picture taken with the campaign leader, Keith Mason, and had given every indication that he supported the effort.
The thread that ties these three separate actions together is the realization that even though these seven Catholic bishops in three states all share the goal of doing all they can to end the slaughter of the innocents, they also agree that personhood amendments to state constitutions are not realistic, timely or the best way to do things. Statements like those I have just excerpted are the source of my confusion.
For the record and, if I may say so, for the babies, allow me to point a few things out.
It was not anyone in the pro-life movement, but rather United States Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun who wrote in the Roe v. Wade decision, “If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant’s [abortion] case, of course, collapses, for the fetus’ right to life is then guaranteed specifically by the [14th] Amendment.”
In other words, if those who understand that a preborn child is a person from the point of his creation want to restore absolute legal protection to children, then personhood must be established in the law. Justice Blackmun did not tell us how personhood could be established, but he did give us a clue and this is why so many pro-life activists have chosen to do what they can to propose personhood amendments to the various state constitutions. The hope is that one of these proposals will be passed by the people and if it eventually arrives at the U.S. Supreme Court, the actual merits of personhood will be argued.
Further, on March 7, 1974, Cardinal Humberto Medeiros spoke at a United States Senate Judiciary Committee hearing for the entire National Conference of Catholic Bishops and told the senators that any proposed constitutional amendment “…should clearly establish that, from conception onward, the unborn child is a human person in the terms of the Constitution.”
In that same statement, Cardinal Medeiros also made it perfectly clear that every proposal should be “universal and without exceptions.”
So, a totally pro-abortion Supreme Court justice and a cardinal of the Roman Catholic Church both came to the same conclusion: Personhood is the key to ending the tyranny of the abortion empire in America. And yet when we have three actively dedicated pro-life organizations pursuing the very goal that Cardinal Medeiros encouraged, we also have Catholic bishops publicly distancing themselves from such efforts and opposing them in a variety of ways.
This is discouraging, but not surprising. In fact, it is a harbinger of things to come if those committed to pro-life principle do not press on rather than succumb to a spirit of despair.
Now is not the time to accept defeat simply because of the negative statements coming forth from Catholic conferences whether in the east, the west or anywhere in between. We cannot change the statements of those Church leaders who have chosen to oppose personhood efforts, but on the other hand, we cannot abandon the very principle that is foundational to all pro-life efforts not only in Montana, Georgia and Colorado – but everywhere else.
Among the many legal minds who have contributed to the fundamental strategy that underlies the necessary pro-life legal efforts in these three states is that of the wise Notre Dame law professor Charles Rice. In 35 years, he has never changed his perspective on personhood. What he said in 1973 he continues to say today. He teaches that it was the denial of personhood that was the foundation for everything that the Nazis did to the Jews, the Christians and others under their regime. The idea of relegating entire classes of people to subhuman status was the crux of the Nazi euthanasia program and all the gruesome acts that followed it.
Professor Rice ties that very attitude of annihilation by dehumanization directly to the abortion industry of today. And as he has written, the affirmation of the non-personhood of the preborn child means that the particular human beings who fall into this category are subject to all manner of cruelty and abuse, including death because they have no rights – they are not human beings according to the law.
This alone should give rise to a total advocacy of personhood on the part of every single pro-life American in our day and age. Whether a Catholic prelate or a man on the street, there is no denying that the culture of death now has a tragic grip on the thought process of those in authority in our nation and that must change.
As Professor Rice so eloquently wrote, “Roe applies precisely the principle that underlay the Nazi extermination of the Jews, that an innocent human being can be declared to be a non-person and subjected to death at the discretion of those who regard him as unfit or unwanted. The justices, who triggered the abortion avalanche by their own free decision, are no more defensible than the Nazi judges who acquiesced in the crimes of that regime and the functionaries who administered its decrees at Auschwitz and similar places.”
As if that were not enough, he concluded on this sober note, “The Court will allow states to enact marginal restrictions on surgical abortions, but those abortions are becoming obsolete because of early abortifacient drugs and devices.”
So, I am left bewildered and anguished by these questions: Why not personhood? How can one be steadfast and at the same time oppose such sensible strategies?
As Alan Keyes warned, “The evil that we fight is but a shadow of the evil that we do.”
Judie Brown is president of American Life League and a member of the Pontifical Academy for Life. For three decades, she has advocated personhood declarations in law.



Huh? For those of you who say we should wait because now is not the right time,SPECIFICALLY what would be the right time to do this? I want specifics, not just platitudes.
Jill: I share your anguish. I had a prolifer tell me that we shouldn’t even push for the illegalization of abortion until we can provide more services for families. I would like to know specifically from someone that holds this opinion how they judge that enough services are available that we can now require that parents don’t kill their unborn children. If people are expecting some utopia in which to raise children, they are dreaming. We now require that people do not kill their born children eventhough things are not perfect out there.
The “right time” is when the Supreme Court is stacked with judges willing to overturn Roe v. Wade. .. that’s according to the pragmatists.
I think there are two groups of prolifers opposing the personhood movement: 1. those that think it will not survive in the Supreme Court and that will ultimately strengthen Roe 2. those that are awaiting some kind of child-raising utopia
Note to American Life League: Pro-lifers are not sitting around “doing nothing” like your little video snears.
There is constant talk about the need to replace pro-life leaders because the movement is getting old. I agree, and I think Judie Brown should be the first one to go.
May God hasten that day…
Note to American Life League: Pro-lifers are not sitting around “doing nothing” like your little video snears [sic].
Posted by: Andrew at March 28, 2008 9:42 AM
That’s true Andrew! You guys are busy, busy, busy doing important things like dumpster diving! And taking pictures of cars! And standing around outside Planned Parenthood clinics looking all maudlin and steeping yourselves in shallow sentimentality! Busy busy busy!
GOD BLESS Judie Brown!! Her consistent, unwavering, voice
for truth over the past 40 years is the glimmer of hope
the movement needs.
Coloradans who would like to hear her speak out and raise funds for Personhood on April 4th in Denver and April 5th in Colorado Springs, can call CRTL at 303-753-9394.
See you at the Judie Brown Italian Fest for LIFE!!!
A ‘personhood ammendment’ would be meaningless with Roe in place.
What would happen if Roe was overturned? The matter would go back to the states. Some states laws already allow for abortion. Every state with laws on the books limiting abortion or disallowing it would have those laws challenged and if one challenge didnt work then another challenge would be launched again and again until the issue came to the Supereme Court. And the SC would be facing case after case after case until abortion was legal again. No one really wants to open up that particular legalistic can of worms.
This is all just another dog and pony show created to work up antichoicers. Its political smoke and mirrors – full of sound and fury signifying jack diddly squat.
Andrew is right. Pro-lifers are not sitting around doing nothing. It is ridiculous to claim that.
I can’t speak for all pro-lifers who feel that it is not the right time for an HLA, but I think most are supportive of an HLA someday. The danger is that the pro-life movement will lose precious ground.
I seem to remember something Hadley Arkes said in his book “Natural Rights and the Right to Choose.” He was very critical of National Right to Life (I think in the 90’s) for going too far in what they wanted and not supporting the first small step (I believe the Born Alive Infant Protection Act at the time). I don’t remember the specifics of what NRLC was trying to do, but it sounds to me that they and other groups have learned their lesson. (It’s been a while since I read this, so I hope I am correct in summarizing it.)
What I think is more damaging to the pro-life cause is groups like ALL being so critical of NRLC and other groups like the bishops. I understand that they don’t agree with the more conservative strategy, but there is no need to be so openly hostile toward them.
The leaders of the groups should quietly get together and figure out where both strategies can be utilized the best.
I don’t blame ALL for being frustrated because they don’t understand the caution, but really, they are making things worse in my opinion.
I would really appreciate the chance to vote in my state on this issue!! I would like to have a say!! I applaud any prolife legislation that is put in front of ALL people to vote on!
Dog and pony, smoke and mirrors, sound and fury, jack diddly squat……TR you make me smile.
I would like to add..
I applaud pro abortion legislation that is put in front of ALL people to vote on as well.
oh man, this really gets my blood boiling….
Regarding the 3 Catholic Bishops in Colorado, Montana and Georgia; I don’t think they want abortion outlawed, they’re not pro-life, I believe something more sinister is going on here, I think they’re sneaky, dishonest liberals. The Catholic leadership has been infiltrated by pro-aborts.
Note to American Life League: Pro-lifers are not sitting around “doing nothing” like your little video snears [sic].
Posted by: Andrew at March 28, 2008 9:42 AM
That’s true Andrew! You guys are busy, busy, busy doing important things like dumpster diving! And taking pictures of cars! And standing around outside Planned Parenthood clinics looking all maudlin and steeping yourselves in shallow sentimentality! Busy busy busy!
Posted by: Hieronymous at March 28, 2008 10:24 AM
Oh wait! You guys also are busy standing around outside construction company executives houses, where you piss off the neighbors and generally make people less sympathetic to your cause! And you’re also busy invading children’s movies where you piss off their parents and generally make people less sympathetic to your cause! Busy, busy, busy!
Ellie: The bishops and the NRLC should also be less openly hostile to the “personhood” side. If they disagree with the “personhood” amendments, then why not just refuse to endorse them rather than openly campaign against them?
TexasRed, you can’t be a person in one state, and a non-person in another state. If a personhood amendment is brought before SCOTUS, who is going to prove that the pre-born is NOT a person? If Roe v Wade is overturned because of this, no state will be granted the right to decide for itself because the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are granted under the U.S. Constitution. No state may deny a person of those rights. Interestingly there is no right to abortion, yet Roe v. Wade prevents states from saying otherwise.
“The time to strike is while the iron is hot.” It seems those who would rather wait until the “right time” (whatever in the world that is) to support and pass personhood legislation just don’t get it. Imagine if during the great civil rights movement if the majority of those involved did not feel the “time was right” and instead sat on their hands and did not support the effort–would we have achieved the legislative and social gains that the movement brought to an underclass of our fellow citizens?
The point is that “progress” in any social movement does not follow a well planned, perfectly executed road map that all of the sudden one day matures and presto! all is rosy and wonderful. Actually, every bit of progress made so far in the pro-life movement has been incremental, and it will continue to be that way as long as the secularist ethos dominates our culture. Nothing has come easy, nor will it ever come easy in this fight.
TexasRed, you can’t be a person in one state, and a non-person in another state.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at March 28, 2008 3:02 PM
Sure you can. See, for example, pre-Civil War slave states v. non-slave states.
And we know how wrong they were, now don’t we?
Come on Judy, set the example for the rest of us. Be the first one to retire with your foot in your mouth.
The day she and people like her retire is the day the pro-life movement will start to make real progress. Until then I’m afraid we’ll have to navigate through the wrestling ropes with other prolifers to determine who is more pro-life. . .
Gee, it’s 6:37 pm and I’m still at the office. I guess I did nothing today though, Judy says so.
Perhaps it is time for each side to agree to disagree. Each side could also agree to not actively work against the other. Just a thought.
TexasRed, you can’t be a person in one state, and a non-person in another state.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at March 28, 2008 3:02 PM
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Of course you can.
I would really appreciate the chance to vote in my state on this issue!! I would like to have a say!! I applaud any prolife legislation that is put in front of ALL people to vote on!
Dog and pony, smoke and mirrors, sound and fury, jack diddly squat……TR you make me smile.
Posted by: Carla at March 28, 2008 11:49 AM
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You dont vote on Supreme Court decisions – or didnt you realize that?
TexasRed, you can’t be a person in one state, and a non-person in another state. If a personhood amendment is brought before SCOTUS, who is going to prove that the pre-born is NOT a person? If Roe v Wade is overturned because of this, no state will be granted the right to decide for itself because the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are granted under the U.S. Constitution. No state may deny a person of those rights. Interestingly there is no right to abortion, yet Roe v. Wade prevents states from saying otherwise.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at March 28, 2008 3:02 PM
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There wasnt a need for a ‘right to abortion’. The BOR and Constitution were written BY men and FOR men. At the time those documents were written women had virtually no rights at all compared to what we have today. BUT there were no laws against abortion. The fact of the matter is not allowing a woman to end an unwanted pregnancy robs HER of HER right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness but that doesnt bother you the least little bit. Trying to pretend a fertilized egg is a ‘person’ is idiocy – even the higher ups in the antichoice movement realize that.
I would like to vote on a state personhood amendment TR.
I’ve never written in here before, but after watching the video and reading the commentary, I think that there is a significant lack of understanding and charity surrounding the personhood initiative. I have a few observations I would like to share.
1) Over three thousand babies are being murdered a day, and people are squabbling over who should be leading, when the right time to take a stand is, and which strategy works best? I’ll bet those babies really enjoyed the debate as they were unceremoniously ripped to shreds in their mothers’ wombs.
2) Those who say we need to develop a workable strategy by setting in “friendly” SC justices first completely denies the power and glory of Jesus Christ, whose victory this will be anyway. God asks us to work to do His Will … He doesn’t demand winnable results from us. That is HIS department. Remember Gideon? He didn’t know why God wanted to make his army so small, but he did as God asked. The victory wasn’t Gideon’s or Gideon’s army’s. It was God’s, and had Gideon not done as God asked, the Israelites would have been demolished. “Incrementalists” would do well to remember that.
3) To my knowledge, Judie Brown and American Life League have chastised other self-proclaimed pro-life organizations for not going far enough with their legislative measures, but they have never actively opposed or attempted to stop any real pro-life measures. James Bopp, the attorney for NRLC, however, has been circulating a memo asking legislators and other pro-life organizations NOT to endorse the personhood initiatives. Seems to me that the one who works to stop a pure and good measure to TRULY end abortion betrays his own cause because of a perceived “strategy.” Disgraceful!
So to “strategists” and “incrementalists,” I say, “shame on you!” Shame on you for allowing “acceptable losses,” which are little babies … PEOPLE … being slaughtered by the thousands every day! Shame on you for actively working AGAINST an initiative that may or may not work, but really IS a work of God’s Will!
May God Bless all real efforts to end ALL abortions, and may God have mercy on those Judases who will take 30 pieces of silver to stop or slow those efforts!
Thank you Dorian!! Amen.
“Trying to pretend a fertilized egg is a ‘person’ is idiocy” — TexasRed
The pro-life side has a stronger case of proving a person begins at conception than the pro-choice side does at proving a person DOESN’T begin at conception. I’d like to know how the pro-choice side would argue this.
You say there were no laws against abortion? Uh… yes there were.
And lastly, you’re right. Women had almost no rights back in early American history. We know how wrong that was. So why is it so right today to treat the pre-born like early American women… only worse?
CC:
The pro-choice side has a stronger case of proving a fetus doesn’t have personhood rights exceeding those of an already-born human.
The pro-choice side has a stronger case of proving a fetus doesn’t have personhood rights exceeding those of an already-born human.
Posted by: Edyt at March 30, 2008 11:00 PM
How do you figure? Human life has a very definite beginning, which is universal and indisputable. That beginning of a unique human life is indivisible from its individuality, and therefore its “personhood.”
At the very moment sperm meets egg, there is no longer a sperm or an egg, but a unique human life, which takes in nutrients, grows, and develops under its own direction and power. As such, the argument about a “woman’s body” no longer applies because we are no longer talking about life which is “hers.”
At the bottom of the whole argument is the very real fact that a new “person” is created at the moment of fertilization. Scientifically, the moment of fertilization creates a unique, individual human life. 1) It is alive in and of itself. 2) It is nothing BUT human. 3) That human possesses qualities that are unique to itself. On the other hand, there is NO definitive counter from the pro-abortion side which determines the nature of “personhood,” and what changes take place that create a new “person,” scientifically OR philosophically.
I would be very interested in hearing from a pro-abortion advocate at which point human life begins, what the proper definition of a “person” is (and why), and why “personhood” begins when they claim it does.
Dorian, personhood is an attributed status, and we do it at birth. Some argument could be made for a limited form of it after viability, per the restrictions on abortion that some states have.
Sure, “human” and alive – no argument there. The debate is concerning when we grant personhood, right to life, etc.
Doug,
I think the big question I have for those who argue against personhood from the moment of fertilization is two fold. 1) What is a “person” and 2) when is a new person created?
The religious would say that “personhood” is granted at the moment of ensoulment (And Thomas Aquinas would say the same thing). Aristotle tells us that the soul is “de anima”; that which animates. If that is the case, then the moment of ensoulment is fertilization because that is the moment new life is created. Aristotle’s examination of the soul reveals that the soul is one, indivisible (meaning not composed of parts), immortal, unique, and the force which grants the powers of growth, mobility, sensation, reproduction, and rational thought. Given that, and given that a human soul is a person (beyond the ‘legal’ meaning), necessarily, personhood begins with fertilization.
Now, either the pro-abortion side denies the existence of the soul completely, or they must maintain some other defining attribute with which to identify a “person.” My question is, if not the soul … what?
Dorian, there is the societal construct of personhood, and then there are our own feelings on an individual basis.
Soul or not – I don’t know, and I also don’t want people’s religious beliefs resulting in taking away freedom from women in this matter.
For me, being a person entails having some personality, some sentience, there being “somebody” there to some degree at least. Late enough in gestation and I do see that being the case with most pregnancies, much the same as a full-term born baby is usually sentient, etc. Thus, for society to deem a limited form of personhood to be present past viability, and to grant a limited form of right-to-life there is okay with me – at that point I think that “somebody is home,” and since delivery can often be induced, the situation with the unborn being inside the body of a woman is altered as well.
Doug,
Society’s “constructs” and individual feelings have no impact on absolute truths. Did society’s belief that the world was flat impact the roundness of the earth in any way? Did man’s beliefs that the universe revolved around the earth change the ways in which the cosmos operates? Not at all. The difference between problems dealing with belief of the cosmos and belief in human “personhood” is that one is a matter of curiosity and the other a matter of life and death. No one dies or is murdered because someone believes the world is flat, and lives life accordingly. If a mother doesn’t believe her unborn baby is a person, when it is, then she unwittingly commits murder … REGARDLESS of what she believes!
Here’s another way to look at it. You don’t want “people’s religious beliefs resulting in taking away freedom from women in this matter.” I don’t want a woman or a doctor’s beliefs resulting in taking away an unborn baby’s freedom to live.
In any event, you say that you believe that being a person entails some personality or sentience (which merely means ability to sense … perhaps you meant sapience?). To that I ask you if people who are comatose are no longer people? Those in a coma do not display any degree of personality or sapience (or even sentience, really). Yet people can remain in comas for well over 20 years, and then wake up as if nothing happened, often reporting that they were aware, but could not convey their awareness to anyone.
Here’s another problem with your qualification for “personhood.” There is absolutely NO physical difference between a baby about to be born, and a baby already born. Why should a baby that is born have more rights? What changed that qualifies one for “personhood” and not the other? Both are just as capable of displaying “personality.” In fact, “personality” can be observed quite early on in the pregnancy. Technology has allowed to to peer into the womb and see unborn babies sucking their thumbs, playing with the umbilical cord, turning somersaults, kicking, bouncing, smiling, and even yawning. All of those things indicate a sign that “somebody is home.”
So, it seems to me that your qualification for “personhood” is quite arbitrary and forces the one in question to prove their “personhood,” rather than forcing us to look for it. Given that the possibility is present that abortion (at any stage of development) may be murder, don’t you think it is incumbent upon those who are considering one to make as thorough an examination of the possibility of personhood as possible so as NOT to intentionally end the life of a living, human, person? Seems to me that the onus is on those advocating for abortion to PROVE (not assert, not theorize, not emotionalize, not politicize) that abortion is not murder, because THEIR actions could result in such a thing … not the actions of those trying to save lives.
Dorian, that which you see as “absolute truth” in the moral realm is not proven. Murder is a legal term and does not depend on your likes and dislikes.
Physical reality, as with our non-flat earth and the human DNA in the unborn in this argument, isn’t really at issue.
You don’t want “people’s religious beliefs resulting in taking away freedom from women in this matter.” I don’t want a woman or a doctor’s beliefs resulting in taking away an unborn baby’s freedom to live.
Well, yeah, that’s pretty much on-target, but the unborn don’t care, have no volition, no will in the matter (to a point in gestation, anyway). Freedom means nothing to them, while it certainly does to the woman. The unborn are inside women’s bodies, and this comes down to their beliefs and desires against yours, in this case. I will go with the woman who is actually pregnant.
No, I didn’t mean “sapience.” Full-term born babies don’t have it, and I’m not saying that personhood shouldn’t be attributed to them.
A person in a coma or a sleeping person has already been deemed by society to have rights, and they are not inside the body of a person, so it’s a much different situation.
As for people being in a coma and saying they were aware – seems to me they really weren’t in a coma, then, if there was that brain activity. The vast majority of people don’t remember anything, don’t think they felt anything, had any cognition, etc., and I’d say those were the ones truly in a coma. If somebody was really aware, then that’s not even the same as being asleep.
In any case, the situation is quite different – the comatose patient isn’t inside somebody’s body, so the possible conflicts aren’t there on that score. Where awareness has gone, and does not return, then yes, I think that though there is a body there, still breathing and having blood circulate, the person is no longer present. In the case of Terri Schiavo, I think much the same – though the body was kept alive, Terri was long gone.
Also, if sentience and awareness was not to develop, how many people would want kids like that, or want to continue pregnancies when such was the case? Obviously, a much lesser number of people. Same for us all – if we were to lose consciousness and never have it return, how many of us would want to have our bodies kept alive? Same deal – some would but it makes a big difference overall.
Sucking thumbs and other reflexive movement isn’t sentience. Granted that awareness is an argument late enough in gestation, however. I do see some personhood in most late-term fetuses, in much the same way as with full-term born babies – my opinion.
It is somewhat arbitrary, yes, for society to attribute personhood at birth. I’m not saying that’s perfect or the end-all of the debate. I’ve said that I’m fine with the restrictions we have on late-term abortions.
Doug,
While I do adhere to an absolute philosophy regarding morality, that isn
Sorry about the formatting … my post didn’t translate well from Word.
The absoluteness to which I refer is whether or not a person is present at the moment of fertilization. Your side claims there is not, while mine does. Regardless of what WE think, it has no impact on the truth of the matter.
Dorian, if we take out how we feel, then the truth of the matter is that personhood is attributed at birth. It’s not a matter of physical reality, as with conception.
I understand that you wish for it to be granted to the unborn, however. And it does not “have” to be done at birth – it could be earlier. It’s a societal construct.
……
Are you 100% certain the unborn baby doesn
Dorian, if we take out how we feel, then the truth of the matter is that personhood is attributed at birth. It’s not a matter of physical reality, as with conception. I understand that you wish for it to be granted to the unborn, however. And it does not “have” to be done at birth – it could be earlier. It’s a societal construct.
Doug, the word