Robert Downey, Jr., and other converts to conservatism
Robert Downey, Jr., in an April 20 interview with the New York Times about his starring role in the upcoming movie, Iron Man, said:
I have a really interesting political point of view, and it’s not always something I say too loud at dinner tables here, but you can’t go from a $2,000-a-night suite at La Mirage to a penitentiary and really understand it and come out a liberal. You can’t. I wouldn’t wish that experience on anyone else, but it was very, very, very educational for me and has informed my proclivities and politics every since….
Downey was referring to his time in prison for drug use. I don’t know if Downey has embraced the full spectrum of conservatism, which includes the pro-life view. But I’ll take this as a signal, along with the report of another huge conservative convert, playwright, David Mamet, that the liberal stranglehold of Hollywood is losing its grip.
Don’t know Mamet? Neither did I. Reported World magazine on him in its April 19/26 issue:
It was treated as a coup for the right: a cultural icon renouncing the creed of his liberal comrades-in-art. If not a household name, David Mamet’s work is common knowledge, as prize-winning playwright, screenwriter and/or director of Speed-the-Plow, Wag the Dog, Glengarry Glen Ross, The Spanish Prisoner, Ronin, and more.
He has published fiction, essays, and children’s stories, drawn cartoons for the Huffington Post, created a TV series and Ford commercials. Made a dent, in other words. That’s why his coming-out sent shock waves through the arts and letters community.
Conservatives cheered his intellectual honesty and welcomed him to the ranks. “The right has gained an artist,” exulted novelist Andrew Klavan. Left-leaning commentators rolled their eyes. “David Mamet is a little sissy,” according to one blogger. “Let’s stop with the fake conversions. You just don’t like paying your taxes.”
The vortex of all this comment was Mamet’s essay in the Village Voice, March 11: “Why I Am No Longer a ‘Brain-Dead Liberal.'” Its subtitle could be, “What was I thinking?”…
A guest on Fox & Friends this morning, whose name evaded me, reported Heidi Montag and Angie Harmon as newly noted conservative stars, joining Jon Voight, Patricia Heaton, and a few others.
Of all these, I only know Heaton to be pro-life, but ultimately whoever is a serious conservative student must conclude that social conservatism is the basis of fiscal conservatism, and the cornerstone of social conservatism is the pro-life issue. So I welcome these influential celebrities at whatever place they’ve arrived in the conservative spectrum.
[Photo of Downey courtesy of the NYT; photo of Mamet courtesy of MSNBC; photo of Harmon courtesy of Yahoo TV]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I know that Jon Voight sort of rediscovered his Catholic faith when he played John Paul II in the 2006 movie John Paul II. That’s at least decent evidence that he does embrace the pro-life view.
Don’t know Mamet? Neither did I.
For shame! And he’s from Chicago, no less!
FWIW, The Spanish Prisoner and Glengarry Glen Ross are both excellent.
There was always Charleton Heston…
The truth needs no defender or endorser.
The only reason I applaud the fact that someone has gone conservative and, I assume you mean they have rediscovered their faith in God as well, is that there is a benefit to them.
Ultimately, Christians win out over all other creeds and philosophies and it should be all Christians’ desire that we take as many with us as possible.
That is why we try to shed light on the darkness and battle the evil of abortion. It is not so much for us as it is for them that see the light. That is agape love in action.
Ted Nugent?
Where do you get that insane idea that Christians win out over all other creeds and philosophies? What makes Christianity the best?
(P.S. You can’t quote from the Bible because other religions can quote from their holy texts too. It’s not a fair match.)
Right, well, very brief outline: First we investigate the question of God’s existence. Certainly the argument from the fine-tuning of the universe provides a very difficult argument to counter for God’s existence. As a corollary to this argument, we see that there is a unique infinite being. Hence, all polytheistic, atheistic, and agnostic religions must be false, religions like atheism, agnosticism, pantheism, animism, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.
Next we investigate the claims of Christianity via historical records. We have around 5,500 New Testament manuscripts, which is completely unheard of as far as documents from ancient antiquity go. The next closest amount of documents from ancient antiquity is Homer’s writings and we have around 600 manuscripts of those. Also, the NT documents were written some 30-50 years after the events they discuss. The earliest manuscripts of Homer are written some 500 years after him. Other documents from ancient antiquity only get far, far worse as far as number and length of time since the events happened. So we have every reason to historically believe that the events in the New Testament documents are historically accurate. In fact, most credible modern scholars do not deny the historicity of the gospels, just the interpretation.
Now this historical man Jesus of Nazareth claimed to be God. The evidence for his resurrection is overwhelming. Hence, we assume he is who he said he is, that is, God in flesh. Thus, all other non-Christian religions must be false.
This is an extremely brief outline, with really nothing I’m saying backed up. It of course, can be, but this is the general idea. For an amazing discussion of this from the ground up, I recommend “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to be an Atheist” by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek. Very solid arguments and quite difficult to counter.
Why can there not be multiple gods? Many many religions believed this long before Christianity took hold.
“Why can there not be multiple gods? Many many religions believed this long before Christianity took hold. ”
——————————————
Even if there were multiple gods in the cultural belief system …there was also that understanding/ belief that there was ONE head god and the rest were lesser gods.
RSD, granted, I understand that too.
But Christianity is inherently monotheistic (sorta), and they’re saying it’s the “one true religion.”
Even if Jesus DID perform miracles, it was our portrayal of him that led to the belief that he was the “savior” rather than a lesser god walking on earth for a period of time.
“Why can there not be multiple gods? Many many religions believed this long before Christianity took hold.”
Actually, before I answer, I should clarify. There COULD be multiple gods in the sense of demi-gods or gods like the Greeks thought (Zeus, Hemes, etc.) The reason we say there is only one God in the most absolute sense comes from the attributes that one derives this God to have (I don’t think what I just wrote is a sentence…). The key attributes that the Theist who wishes to make the claim that there is only one God must establish that this being is infinite. By infinite, I mean existed from all eternity, all knowing, and omnipresent. By eternal, I mean having always existed i.e. the existence of this being is necessary.
So here’s the idea behind that, Edyt. For the sake of argument, let’s assume that we can establish that at least one supreme, infinite being exists. Now, suppose that a second being who is also infinite exists. Now we have two supreme, infinite beings. Well, how do we tell them apart? Part of the attribute of being infinite is being all-knowing. Not just all propositional statements, but self-knowing as well. By omnipresent, I mean that this being is aware of and active at every point. In order to tell these two gods apart, it must be that god A knows something that god B does not. But this contradicts god B’s omniscience. OK, maybe we tell them apart by the fact that one created the other. But then this contradicts eterniality since the existence of god B is not necessary (because he was created by god A).
And that, as well, is the basic idea behind the metaphysical claim that there is only one God, at least the type of God I described above. There is more detail involved and other ways one can go about it, but that’s the idea in a nutshell.
Yes, but you’re using the definition of “god” to include omniscient/omnipresent.
I’ll grant you God A (for the sake of argument), but what if God B does not have the same qualities? If you only define “god” in a certain manner, then yes, the argument doesn’t make sense. But in the metaphysical, you have to allow for a broader range of meaning than that. You can even allow for the fact that possibly God A is NOT omniscient. Perhaps, yes, he/she/it is the divine creator of the universe, but deists believed in the God = clockmaker theory, where he set it in motion and let it go.
I mean, if I created an AI robot, yes I would be its “divine” creator, you might even say I would be its God, but if it decided to run off I wouldn’t know where it went because I’m not omniscient.
Dear Edyt,
Weren’t you raised in a Christian home and weren’t you homeschooled as well? So…you KNOW exactly what it is to believe. What happened to you?
For Downey’s sake, I hope “Ironman” does better than “Expelled”.
(“Expelled” had a $216-per-screen day within it’s first week of release?)
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/2008/EXPEL.php
Carla,
Over a period of self-discovery, education, and the very basic tenants of reason, religion no longer made sense to me.
Spirituality’s okay to me, but since I dropped religion I no longer cared for the mystical. I used to be into fantasy, you know, books, movies, religion, but I just grew out of it…
“Yes, but you’re using the definition of “god” to include omniscient/omnipresent.”
Yes, that’s right. I tried to point out above that the burden of proof to establish those criteria for God is on the theist. So, yes you are correct, but I also believe that those two attributes of God can be established as corollaries to certain proofs for his existence, which I have not done.
Now if god B does not have those same qualities, the theist doesn’t have any problem with that. Especially without considering any what we would call “divine revelation” from Christianity, there is no contradiction or problem with a lesser god who has all the attributes of the higher god except, say omniscience.
So all in all, IF IF IF it can be established that there is a supreme being who is eternal in the sense I described above, there can not be a second being who is also eternal. But right now, a priori without Christianity, there could be a whole plethora of gods under this one eternal god with varying levels of attributes, just like in your AI robot example. In fact, I suppose one could argue that this is somewhat like what angels and demons are in Christian thought. OK, fair enough.
I don’t mean to argue the existence of Gods, necessarily, Bobby. It’s just the idea that one religion is “more right” than another, using that religion’s criteria for what God is that bothers me.
If there is one “true” God, the criteria should be the same for all religions.
Anyway, I have to run. Nice talking to you.
“ultimately whoever is a serious conservative student must conclude that social conservatism is the basis of fiscal conservatism, and the cornerstone of social conservatism is the pro-life issue”
how is social conservatism the basis of fiscal conservatism? So the big businesses out there that exploit the poor, and outsource for cheap labor… is this not also tied to social and fiscal conservatism? It’s truly a shame if you are actually finding a way to tie this to the pro-life movement.
Remember that one does not need to be Christian, or relate at all to the Christian faith, to see that all life is sacred.
To so closely tie Christianity and conservatism to the pro-life message is to deny that it is bigger than all of the other issues.
First of all, before I ever read this article, I have to respond to the quote of the day, even though I’m sure no one will even give this comment a second thought because you choose to disrespect pro-choicers with the label “pro-aborts” but…
NO ONE THINKS ABORTION IS A GOOD THING!!!!!
Choice is good. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that is her private prerogative. No one is fighting for abortion. We fight for choice.
Get it?
Somehow I doubt it.
“No one is fighting for abortion. We fight for choice. ”
———————————
But your “CHOICE” leads to death/ abortion…we are fighting for LIFE.
Get it?
I pray that you do.
Hi Leah,
People that make tons of money from abortions must think it’s a good thing. A very good thing. They make a living killing babies.
If NO ONE thinks abortion is a good thing then why not push adoption or helping mothers choose life? They are choices that allow babies to live.
Somehow I doubt that you get what I am saying as well.
“For Downey’s sake, I hope “Ironman” does better than “Expelled”.”
——————————————–
Don’t worry, Laura…if the actual movie is half as good as the trailers..it’ll be one of the summer blockbusters.
Over a period of self-discovery, education, and the very basic tenants of reason, religion no longer made sense to me.
Translation: college changed my mind.
Carla, 12:49 excellent point! If it’s not a good choice, and it is a choice they do not like, where are all the pro-choicers fighting to push adoption and life in equal amounts to the effort they put towards abortion? Really!
Great comment Carla,
Using your example of the PP that called the young women who walked out of her appointment to lure her back is a perfect example that they feel abortion is a good thing.
The young woman I know who was continuously called back from an abortion clinic to kill her almost viable baby obviously thougtht abortion was a good thing.
Nice talking with you too, Edyt.
“It’s just the idea that one religion is “more right” than another, using that religion’s criteria for what God is that bothers me.”
Ah, I think I see now more what your original question was getting at. I took us quite astray! Anyway, here’s the more general idea behind that. I think this should make sense.
The claim of Christianity is that God actually told us stuff (to put it bluntly). This is what is known as divine revelation. For example, while it MAY be the case that this idea of the Trinity is made-up by men, if it IS true, there is no WAY men could figure it out on their own. There is no argument to deduce from reason alone that this supreme being necessarily must be comprised of three persons yet subsist in only one nature. That is something that we believe God chose to reveal to us, and the only reason anyone would believe it is because they think God “said so.” Well, for the same reason, this is why Christianity claims to be true AND other religions false. Because Jesus, who we believe is God, established a religion, that religion is of divine origin, and must be true. Then other religions have to be false because of the law of non-contradiction. For example, Buddhism teaches that one reincarnates until they reach nirvana. Christianity condemns reincarnation. They can’t both be correct. Someone has to be wrong.
But now, this is not to say that all non-Christian religions are totally false (incidentally, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that there is no good in any other religion). There is good and many partial truths in all religions. In fact, now is not the time to get into this, but some Christianity (at least Catholicism) teaches that there is the possibility of salvation without being a professing Christian. It is still through Jesus, and takes a bit of explaining, but at least I believe that not being a card-carrying Christian is an automatic “go to hell” card, although I know some of my fellow Christians will disagree with me.
The bottom line is that we believe Christianity to be true, making other religions have some false teachings in it based on Jesus’ word and the law of non-contradiction.
Again, good talking to you Edyt, hope that makes at least some sense.
BTW I got barfed on three times while typing this post, hehe…
Leah:
Abortion is the only thing I can think of where someone can advocate and even fight for a legal right/choice to do it, but still \think it’s not good thing.
Where’s the logic in that?
Sandy:
Al Sharpton is worked up over the killing of one black man and yet continues to ignore the fact that PP takes in money specifically to kill millions of black babies.
Here’s more by Carol Everett, which goes along hand in hand with Sandy’s story:
“Selling Abortion to Confused Young Women
I’m sure you’ve seen those numbers advertised that say “Problem Pregnancy,” “Abortion Information,” or “Pregnant?”. When a young girl finds out she is pregnant, she may not want an abortion, she may just want information.
But when she calls that number that’s paid for by abortion money, what kind of information do you think she is going to get? Remember, they sell abortions. They don’t sell keeping the baby. They don’t sell giving the baby up. They don’t sell delivering the baby in any form. They only sell abortions.
The counselor that the girl speaks to on the telephone is paid to be her friend. She is supposed to seduce her into a friendship of sorts to sell her the abortion.
I cannot tell you one thing that happens in an abortion clinic that is not a lie.
There are usually two questions the girls ask. The first is: Does it hurt? “Oh, no. Your uterus is a muscle. It’s a cramp to open it: a cramp to close it; it’s a slight cramping sensation. Everybody’s had cramps – every woman in the world.”
Then they ask: Is it a baby? “No, it’s product of conception; it’s a blood clot; it’s a piece of tissue.”
When the girl goes in for the abortion she pays up front then goes into a room for counseling. They give her a 6 to 12 page form. This form is written by an abortion attorney to confuse the girl to death. It works and she doesn’t ask any questions. She goes back to the two questions: Does it hurt? Is it a baby?
I cannot tell you one thing that happens in an abortion clinic that is not a lie.”
StudentFL: how is social conservatism the basis of fiscal conservatism?
Right on – good grief, look at our federal government. There is no fiscal conservatism, no matter how socially conservative the President, Congress, etc., is.
Among the very, very few in Congress who have truly been financially conservative, there are Democrats as well as Republicans. Bill Proxmire, known for his Golden Fleece Awards identifying wasteful government spending, was one of them.
Hi Bethany!!!!
Indeed. How can PCers continue to dismiss all of the abortion clinic workers and abortion clinic owner tesimonies that they were in it for the money and trained their employees to make sure they “sold” abortions to women in crisis. “Counselors” had to especially use their selling skills to women who were on the fence and unsure of what to do. Instead of counseling them on adoption, or giving them other options, they used their selling skills to convince them that abortion was their only option. $$$ Ching Ching $$$
I know this scenerio is a stretch, but what if the government ruled that abortion mills can continue to operate, but all abortions must be pro-bono. How many would continue to do abortions? Sell abortions?
Bobby, 1:05: BTW I got barfed on three times while typing this post, hehe…
What are you doing to that child of yours? Lol. How’s the formula thing going? Have you started solids yet?
I know this scenerio is a stretch, but what if the government ruled that abortion mills can continue to operate, but all abortions must be pro-bono. How many would continue to do abortions? Sell abortions?
VERY interesting thought, Sandy. Abortion would probably become obsolete!
“What are you doing to that child of yours? Lol. How’s the formula thing going? Have you started solids yet?”
Hehe. I guess I still haven’t gotten that burping thing with her down yet! I must not know my own strength.
Alas, we’ve been feeding her rice cereal or oatmeal each night for the past week. She’s beginning to like it, I believe. So hopefully she’ll be eating enchiladas in no time.
Awwwww That is so sweet. I bet she is just so cute.
I miss the barfing and drooling stage. I must be crazy! lol
Let me add to my 1:19 post, that is *only* if they actually would respect the law. In reality, they’d probably create loopholes so that they could sell them without technically “selling them”.
Great idea! Why don’t we ask all physicians to work without receiving compensation?
“Awwwww That is so sweet. I bet she is just so cute.
I miss the barfing and drooling stage. I must be crazy! lol”
Haha, no way Bethany. I’d say you’re crazy if you don’t miss it! I never want there to be a point where there isn’t an infant/toddler in my life. I hope by the time my wife and I can’t have kids anymore, Gianna begins to have kids. That would be super, but most likely unrealistic. Fun to dream, though…
Oh and she is cute! We took some great pictures of her standing and leaning on her crib and her in a bubble bath yesterday. My goodness, what a cutie!
Hey Bobby,
I miss those days too. My youngest is 3 1/2 and it goes by waaaayyyyyy to fast. I am lucky though because he loves to snuggle. He hops into bed with me every morning and loves sitting in my lap and reading books.
My daughter was always on the go which was fun too!
Haha, no way Bethany. I’d say you’re crazy if you don’t miss it! I never want there to be a point where there isn’t an infant/toddler in my life. I hope by the time my wife and I can’t have kids anymore, Gianna begins to have kids. That would be super, but most likely unrealistic. Fun to dream, though…
Ditto! I want to keep having them till I can’t anymore, but then I want my kids to keep having them so I’ll never have to do without babies.
I have been changing diapers for the last 8 years and don’t plan on stopping anytime soon. lol
Post the pictures sometime Bobby, if you don’t mind! I’m sure we’d all love to see how she’s grown!
11 years of diapering for me Bethany. I’ve got a couple years to go……..:)
Oh fantastic, Sandy! What blessings!
Carla, you have the sweetest blessings. I am subscribed to your blog and hear their stories and see their pictures all the time. :)
Sandy, my kids love reading books too. My almost 3 year old won’t just sit there though- he always wants to climb all over me and the book while we’re reading. It drives his sister and brother crazy! haha
Thanks for reading me, Bethany! Oh, you can comment there too you know. :) hint hint
”
Post the pictures sometime Bobby, if you don’t mind! I’m sure we’d all love to see how she’s grown! ”
Here’s some of the latest pics of my 5 month old if anyone is interested.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=21807&l=9f928&id=614529961
Because he said he isn’t a liberal that automatically makes him a conservative?
You do realize Jill, that the majority of Americans fall in the middle ground somewhere and can’t really be accurately identified as either.
Just because YOU see the world as with you (being Christian Fundamentalist Conservative Republicans) or against you (baby hating lesbian communist America hating liberal democrats) doesn’t make it reality.
And for the zillionth time, your obsession with celebrities still just baffles me. I read the rest of that interview. It was vapid and self absorbed (as most Hollywood types AND drug addicts are). Not exactly someone I’d want spear heading my campaign for Hollywood conservativism.
Oh my goodness, she is SO beautiful!!!!!!
If one studies the violent crime rate for the 90’s, you’ll notice there is a significant drop. This is due to abortion becoming legal in 1973. A lot of unwanted children become violent criminals.
Leah claimed:
“NO ONE THINKS ABORTION IS A GOOD THING!!!!!”
Planned Parenthood thinks abortion is a WONDERFUL thing because it helps them to make MILLIONS of $$$$
Translation: college changed my mind.
Posted by: Bethany at April 28, 2008 12:59 PM
I was about 14 when I stopped calling myself a Christian. Six years later I was a full-fledged atheist. In that six year period, I was a non-practicing Christian, someone who believed in God but not Christianity, a deist, agnostic, and well, finally reached the point of no return.
Nice try though.
I was about 14 when I stopped calling myself a Christian. Six years later I was a full-fledged atheist. In that six year period, I was a non-practicing Christian, someone who believed in God but not Christianity, a deist, agnostic, and well, finally reached the point of no return.
Nice try though.
How old were you when you first went to college? 20?
17.
Bobby,
There’s nothing better than baby photos, especially when they are your own! I think 1,3,5..25,26, are my favorites(?) but it was a tough choice. She is adorable! A little “Gerber baby”, for sure! Thanks for sharing!
17.
That kind of goes hand in hand with what I was saying, sadly.
Edyt, I’m not trying to attack you, but I’ve seen this so many times, it’s almost impossible to ignore. Your weaknesses and insecurities were preyed on and you gave in to the pressure. This happens so often after young people go to college that it doesn’t surprise me anymore. I’ve come to recognize certain terms, like “I was enlightened” “I discovered myself, who I really am”, and “I was educated and realized I didn’t need a God”. Those three thoughts come out so often after someone goes to college, that frankly, I do wonder what goes on in colleges nowadays to change people’s hearts so quickly. It makes me sad.
I questioned my faith when I was in my late teens as well. But instead of throwing up my hands and arbitrarily declaring that religion is bad like atheists do, I actually went and researched and studied about my Catholic faith and learned a great deal that I never knew before. All of my questions were answered.
It’s too bad that Christians turned atheist don’t bother to seek the answers to the questions they have, and instead just give up on the belief in God which was passed down through their family for centuries because it’s the cool thing to do.
Here’s one way of looking at it. My great great great grandparents were Catholic. My great great grandparents were Catholic. My great grandparents were Catholic. My grandparents were Catholic. My parents are Catholic.
If I were to become an atheist, I would essentially be saying that I am more intelligent and wise than my stupid great great great grandparents, great great grandparents, great grandparents, grandparents, and parents who were all not clever enough to figure out that God doesn’t exist. And I’m so great, I figured all of this out in my twenties!
But I am not nearly arrogant enough to make such a claim.
John,
I’m have both Catholics and converts in my family history, and I feel very blessed because it is often the Catholics converts who understand the most about their faith and remain the strongest while those who are born into the Catholic Faith fall by the way side, because they fail to appreciate what they have. Knowing that they are a part of my heritage makes my faith even stronger. Thank God for converts!!!
Oops,that’s “I have both…”
Interesting, John. Would you apply the same line of reasoning to Christian missionary work where the goal is to convert people of other, equally ancestral religions to Christianity?
Choice is good. If a woman chooses to have an abortion that is her private prerogative. No one is fighting for abortion. We fight for choice.
Why do the “pro choicers” oppose informed consent laws?
Hieretcetera, I would only apply that reasoning if the Christian missionaries discouraging thinking about religion, reading about religion, and seeking the answers to questions related to religion. In other words, I would only apply it if they were acting like atheists.
What atheists would those be John? I’ve never met any who didn’t think pretty closely about their choices.
Edyt – I stopped believing in Christianity when I was 14 too. My mom stopped attending the church we were going to, and started taking my sister and I to Unitarian services, and all of a sudden I had my eyes open to all sorts of other philosophies, belief systems, and spirituality rather than forced doctrine. I was a healthy teenager, but my sister had been suffering from severe depression and had no friends at school. Getting involved with the Unitarian Congregation and the friends she made at UU Camp and in our youth group literally saved her life, and has profoundly affected mine. My mom says now that it was one of the best decisions she ever made as a parent…and I agree.
It had nothing whatsoever to do with being brainwashed at college Bethany.
Here’s another way of putting it:
Typical Christian to atheist conversion thought process: I hate religion, it’s just evil stuff, I know better ’cause I’m for gay marriage and God is mean, ‘n’ junk.
Typical atheist to Christian conversion thought process: I am glad that I now know of Jesus Christ, who took our sins onto his body and died to destroy our sins, then was raised in order to prove his mastery over death and restore all mankind to life and light the way to heaven.
To clarify – What annoys me is ignorant children (that includes 20-somethings) who arbitrarily throw away their religion for no reason at all.
Hierwhatever, yeah, atheists think very hard about their choices. Yeah, just like pro-aborts do. Haha… *rolling eyes, big time*
Umm, no one pressured me into atheism. I felt far more pressured by the religious than I ever have by people who are atheists. My friends are Muslim, Christian, Catholic, agnostic, Buddhist, and probably some other kinds of spirituality I don’t know about.
I wouldn’t say I threw away my religion for no reason. When I first started questioning Christianity, I read the entire Bible. Front to back. I read about it in books and online. And though I’ve never read the entire Quran, I’ve read parts of that too. I was agnostic for quite a long time before I finally accepted the fact that I didn’t believe in god, any god, anymore.
And I don’t hate religion. Plenty of people feel saved by it, like Amanda mentioned. I’m sure it’s helpful for a lot of people, and the Bible’s not bad as a guidebook, but there are lots of things in it I disagree with, but I don’t try to “convert” people into atheism. Religion is just not for me.
Wow, John, it must be really lonely for you with all those cardboard cutouts you hang out with instead of people.
If one studies the violent crime rate for the 90’s, you’ll notice there is a significant drop. This is due to abortion becoming legal in 1973. A lot of unwanted children become violent criminals.
Posted by: Carol at April 28, 2008 3:48 PM
That study has been proven incorrect. No correlation whatsoever. Sorry Carol. Nice try.
Bobby,
Your little one is adorable!!!
Edyt, so when you had questions, instead of seeking the answers to those questions, you read hundreds of pages which you did not understand, then you threw up your hands and decided to be an atheist. After all, you’d earned the right to be an atheist, since you read the Bible! Ha. What a joke.
Hierowhocares, there is no atheist who has ever arrived at atheism through study and thought. Agnosticism, sure, but not atheism. Those who identify as “atheists” and specifically not as “agnostic” get there through one gateway – Hatred.
Well, I suppose it can’t be too lonely for you John. If you get bored with your cardboard cutouts, you can always go chat with all those strawmen.
Hierosomethingorother, not my fault if you are incapable of understanding a concept so basic. A logical person may say that he doesn’t know or care if God exists; only a hateful person will say that he knows that God does not exist.
I’m laughing so hard I can’t even try to respond to your ridiculous statements, John.
You know what one of the funniest things about your posts is John? It’s that you’re always demanding that other people be logical, and yet you consistently refuse to lead by example.
only a hateful person will say that he knows that God does not exist.
Posted by: John Lewandowski at April 28, 2008 8:28 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does that also hold true for gnomes, vampires, and the Chupacabra? Only a hateful person would say they don’t exist?
@Laura: El Chupacabra DOES exist, don’t you watch the “X-Files” (season 4)?
Edyt, glad you think your ignorance is funny.
Hierosuchandsuch, not my fault the logic center of your brain is so retarded that you can’t see that which is obvious.
Laura, only if you say with certainty that gnomes, vampires, and the Chupacabra definitely don’t exist because you have scientific proof that they don’t exist.
Is there some kind of prize you can get for a stubborn refusal to make any sense? Because I think you’ve got it nailed, John. Hopefully it’s a good prize, like a trip to Tahiti, or a nice big box of Ho-Ho’s.
“a nice big box of Ho-Ho’s”
Damn it, don’t give me an opening like that when you know I’ll get in trouble for making that joke!
ROFL!!! Type it! I dare you!
Carla: This is from a long time ago–sorry it took all day to respond, but I had some very important knitting that had to get done. :)
I don’t believe in pushing women at all, you see. No pushing abortion, no pushing adoption, no pushing keeping the baby–no pushing. I believe that the woman should have the right to make her own choice, and if she feels lost and wants to seek counseling, I would encourage that–if that is what she wants. But the counseling that I support has a very humanistic wort of laissez-faire sort of approach. A counselor, I believe, is simply–should simply be–a medium to help a person reach the decision without biased input.
I am pro-whatever-she-wants. Pro-choice.
—
I would like to comment on the religion discussion that has been going on, because I went through many phases of belief, and my views continue to grow. I, like most people here are saying, went through a time of religious-upheaval in my teens.
I always believed in some sort of god, but I had no formal religious upbringing. When I was 13 or so, I went through this inexplicable stage of being offended by Christianity. A lot of it is because I didn’t understand the true meaning of Christianity: ie, what Jesus taught. All I saw was the aspect of the religion that dwelled in negativity, focused on sin and damnation, looked down on other religions, etc.
I have only recently decided what I believe in. I can’t claim to have finalized my beliefs. I am young, after all, and–God willing–have a long time to live. But the basis is here to stay. My viewpoint is based on the logic of religion:
God is Good. Everything positive is God because God is infinite and God is everywhere. As a little boy said to me after he tested my biblical knowledge (I passed): “God is the good guy, I know that much.”
God is infinite (all), and God is good. This leads me to the conclusion that any religion that has a basis of positivity and has no tenets based in negativity and harm has the presence of God. As the Muslims say: Allahu akbar. God is Great.
It’s almost a mathematical equation–but better–and I can find no way that it is incorrect. I don’t expect that to be the consensus here, but don’t try and persuade me otherwise (though I find hearing religious viewpoints fascinating, so please share them). But anything else to me sounds about as logical as 1+1=8
Hahahaha, there’s no way I’m typing that!
OK, I’m laughing way too hard to continue this silliness! Nighty night!
Ok, we’ll fight more tomorrow. Nite.
Thanks Leah. :)
I grew up in the Lutheran church. I ran as soon as I was confirmed. Did not set foot in a church again until my late 20’s, after much chaos and heartache and a hell of my own making. My husband and I surrendered to Christ at a Billy Graham crusade in Minneapolis. I am not into religion. I love Jesus. He is the One who heals. He has forgiven me for everything horrid thing I have ever done. I am trying to learn more and more about Him and His teachings. I read The Bible every day and try hard to memorize Scripture. My children know more verses than I do! I find living on this earth excruciating at times and long to go home to heaven. I have a simple faith in an awesome God and will praise Him forever for saving a wretch like me.
This is hung on my wall.
May those who know you but don’t know God, come to know God because they know you.
Good night. :)
I have to admit that there are times still when I struggle with my faith. Well, not really with the faith itself..it’s more so with the “You SHOULD believe this because other people have interpreted the Bible this way and therefore you have to listen to them” type attitudes. I just really have a problem with people telling me that my interpretation of what I read in the Bible is incorrect because THEY say so. I do love my church, though. I’ve been to other churches in my area and they just don’t make me feel the way I do when I go to my church. It makes me feel peaceful the minute I walk in. I really need to go more often…stupid busy schedule.
I love my church too, Elizabeth. Well not the building…the people! I remember walking in the first time to smiling faces. I knew I was home.
Here’s a partial listing of more celebrities who are out-spoken pro-lifers! Kate Mulgrew (Captain Kathryn of ‘Star Trek: Voyager’ & Mary Ryan of ‘Ryan’s Hope’), Dr. Laura Schlessinger, Mel Gibson, Hunter Tylo (‘The Bold & the Beautiful’), super models-now-moms Kim Alexis and Kathy Ireland, Jennifer O’Neill (actress, Cover Girl spokesperson), Philip Rivers (San Diego Chargers QB), actress Margaret Colin (Three Men & a Baby), Jordin Sparks of IDOL fame, Kirk Cameron of t.v.’s ‘Growing Pains’, vocalist Rebecca St. James.
“To so closely tie Christianity and conservatism to the pro-life message is to deny that it is bigger than all of the other issues.”
AMEN.
Also, for a good introduction to hilarious Mamet, try watching State and Main, I promise you’ll be laughing out of your seat.
StudentFL: “To so closely tie Christianity and conservatism to the pro-life message is to deny that it is bigger than all of the other issues.”
The statement sounds good on paper, but how do we get the idea across to those “prospective Pro-lifers” out there who have no desire to be associated with the Christian and/or Conservative camps? Any ideas?
Janet, here’s an idea: Keep HisMan off the front lines. He’ll scare all the potential pro-lifers.
I love my church too, Elizabeth. Well not the building…the people! I remember walking in the first time to smiling faces. I knew I was home.
Carla, that is just beautiful.
Janet, here’s an idea: Keep HisMan off the front lines. He’ll scare all the potential pro-lifers.
Posted by: Edyt at April 29, 2008 1:22 AM
Listen, to HisMan, he’s taught us all a thing or two! God bless you Edyt and HisMan.
I think it is actually an integral part of learning about yourself to question your faith. If you choose to walk away from it, then that is fine. If you find something to keep your belief held, then you will come back surer and with a clearer sense of faith. Mother Theresa questioned her faith very strongly. Jesus Christ on the cross asked “My God, why have you forgotten me?”
We all have our moments. Thank God for it.
If I walk away from my faith I forfeit heaven. I am only here for a short time, so I keep my eyes focused on eternity with Jesus.
I appreciate your honest thoughts very much, Leah.
Hi Doug!! :)
Leah, 8:33
AMEN! I think there is nothing wrong with asking questions…isn’t that how one grows in their understanding of their faith anyway?
Janet-
1. Don’t preach to pro-choicers
2. If just lifers discuss with lifers nothing will get done.
3. Come from their level.
If they are lesbian, start with that. If they don’t believe in God start from there and help them come to the conclusion. America won’t support a ban on abortion until we change the hearts and minds. If you don’t believe that pro-life can stand without religion or conservative philosophy, even legislation wise we have a problem.
If I walk away from my faith I forfeit heaven. I am only here for a short time, so I keep my eyes focused on eternity with Jesus.
If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
– Albert Einstein
PiP: Yes, start trying to convert the lesbians. That way, when they become heterosexuals, they can worry about pregnancy with the rest of us and we can force them into it too.
“Listen, to HisMan, he’s taught us all a thing or two!”
Perhaps – only the things he’s taught me have only made me feel more strongly about NOT becoming pro life.
Knowing that for every MK or Bobby out there, there is a HisMan and a John Lewandowski has made me quite content with my position on the fence.
David Mamet is DA MAN!!!
I’ve been an admirer of his work since I was a first year theatre student in 1992. Now I get to jump for joy that he’s also my political brother.
Dear Mr. Einstein,
With all due respect sir, you are dead. You are already experiencing eternity and I hope for you, it is good. As for me, do not worry your pretty little dead head. I serve the Lord, not out of fear or worry of punishment but out of complete and total love and awe for what HE has done for me. So Big Al, I don’t give a rip what you say. RIP!! ha ha
StudentFL said: “To so closely tie Christianity and conservatism to the pro-life message is to deny that it is bigger than all of the other issues.”
Janet said:1:03 The statement sounds good on paper, but how do we get the idea across to those “prospective Pro-lifers” out there who have no desire to be associated with the Christian and/or Conservative camps? Any ideas?
PIP said:12:28: Janet-
1. Don’t preach to pro-choicers
Do you mean don’t mention God, or something different?
2. If just lifers discuss with lifers nothing will get done.
3. Come from their level.
Level? Often times the differences in world views are huge, how do you suggest we get past that?
Angela 11:35: Thank you for your list of pro-life celebrities. Maybe we can still think of more?
“PiP: Yes, start trying to convert the lesbians. That way, when they become heterosexuals, they can worry about pregnancy with the rest of us and we can force them into it too.”
I was giving an example, but yeah, I guess lesbians can’t be pro-choice either, since they can’t get pregnant accidentally (??) Plenty of gays, lesbians, atheists, feminists etc. are pro-life, but there would be more if they felt more accepted in the pro-life community.
“Level? Often times the differences in world views are huge, how do you suggest we get past that? ”
It just starts from a sense of respect and then trying to see things from their perspective. Why are they pro-choice? How do they feel about this other issue? Well, then these are good reasons for seeing our side. There are many different approaches, whether ideological, moral, or practical, it just takes effort to sort them out and time to come to an understanding.
“Plenty of gays, lesbians, atheists, feminists etc. are pro-life, but there would be more if they felt more accepted in the pro-life community.”
Especially if more pro lifers acknowledged their ability to adopt and successfully and lovingly parent a child.
But we’ve got people on this very board who think its better for a child to starve to death in Darfur than to be raised by a gay parent.
So you can see why it’s pretty hard to reconcile a pro life position, when hatred and intolerance are pretty much par for the course.
“Especially if more pro lifers acknowledged their ability to adopt and successfully and lovingly parent a child.”
Exactly.
The pro-life movement should stray away from intolerance and hatred and party politics or progress will be halted.
There are some pro-lifers on this board who do so, but also some that do not. I think this is extremely important though for the movement to understand.
Janet:
Abortion is the only thing I can think of where someone can advocate and even fight for a legal right/choice to do it, but still \think it’s not good thing.
Then you’re not thinking very hard. Off the top of my head: in my opinion, owning guns (barring certain contexts), smoking cigarettes, having promiscuous sex, spending money you haven’t yet earned, and even smoking pot are most frequently pretty bad choices, but I sure as heck support the legal right/choice to do those things. I want no part of any of them, but I’d much rather other people had the choice than the alternative of…everyone being forced to live according to my personal choices.
Hey HisMan, isn’t it cool that Amanda blames you and me for her being “on the fence”, aka pro-abortion? What a sorry, pathetic cop-out.
If the philosophy of pro-life is the correct one, then it shouldn’t matter what anybody says about it. Being pro-life isn’t like belonging to a club, with us mean boys chasing you away. If you’re going to tell me that you would refrain from holding the point of view that unborn children have a right to live and should not be wantonly destroyed JUST BECAUSE you don’t like some of the other people who hold that same point of view, then what good are you? Do you have no soul?
Some other ways to apply Amanda’s stupid argument:
-Ted Kennedy is anti-slavery, but I don’t like Ted Kennedy!! I guess I’ll just be “on the fence” about whether or not slavery is wrong.
-Hillary Clinton is anti-murder, but I don’t like Hillary Clinton! I guess I’ll just be “on the fence” when it comes to whether or not murder should be legal.
If slavery is wrong, and if murder is wrong, and if abortion is wrong, then it doesn’t matter if some obnoxious guy that you can’t stand is also saying that they’re wrong. THEY’RE WRONG, REGARDLESS.
If you’re going to tell me that you would refrain from holding the point of view that unborn children have a right to live and should not be wantonly destroyed JUST BECAUSE you don’t like some of the other people who hold that same point of view…?
I agree. That is a completely illogical reason to decide you aren’t going to be pro-life.
It’s like if I decided I am not against rape simply because I know some people who are against rape but are not people I can respect.
I just don’t get that.
Oh lol, I just read the last half of your post, and you already used an example like mine. :D
No John, its about not aligning myself with a movement represented by angry hateful nasty people.
I could stil have pro life views and not align myself with the pro life movement.
You probably wouldn’t join a baseball team if everyone on the team was bitter and ignorant… that doesn’t mean you hate baseball.
Do you guys deny that many in the pro-life movement are hostile towards liberals an other marginalized groups like homosexuals? It is all about dialogue. If you are trying to convince a liberal by claiming moral superiority and being hostile who will want to listen?
No denying there is a lunatic fringe in any movement. You know who they are. I know who they are. So you converse with those that can hold be rational, agree to disagree and thank the good Lord for one more prolifer.
hehe…PIP… you and I are {thisclose} to being on the exact same page about pretty much everything.
=)
Take out the word hold, please. :)
Amanda ;)
Alexandra,
You’re right, I didn’t think that statement through very well! Sometimes this whole abortion debate leaves me speechless. LIke right now.
PIP: 5:37: Do you guys deny that many in the pro-life movement are hostile towards liberals an other marginalized groups like homosexuals? It is all about dialogue. If you are trying to convince a liberal by claiming moral superiority and being hostile who will want to listen?
Way back in the 1970’s the pro-aborts were all liberals. They created this great divide when they took up the abortion cause. It’s up to them to initiate dialogue between themselves because they don’t trust us pro-lifers any more now than they did in 1970 in my opinion.
Janet, hi! I hope you are having a good evening. :)
Hi Bethany!
Thanks, same to you! I’m going out for a while:)
By, the way, I downloaded some of the brushes, thanks again for the heads up. I think Photoshop is more addicting than blogging..not enough hours in the day!!! Have a good nite!
I love photoshop, Janet. What kind of stuff do you do with it? I’d love to see some of your work. :)
oh and have a fun night! :)
“It’s up to them to initiate dialogue between themselves”
Good luck then…
Amanda said: “No John, its about not aligning myself with a movement represented by angry hateful nasty people.
I could stil have pro life views and not align myself with the pro life movement.
You probably wouldn’t join a baseball team if everyone on the team was bitter and ignorant… that doesn’t mean you hate baseball.”
Amanda, that is exactly the point. Being pro-life internally doesn’t make you part of a team. Now, maybe you would refrain from joining a pro-life organization like “Priests for Life” or “National Right to Life” because you don’t like the message of those organizations or the people within those organizations, but to say that you wouldn’t be pro-life because you don’t like other pro-lifers makes no sense.
And you agree with me that it makes no sense, because you yourself just said, “I could stil have pro life views and not align myself with the pro life movement.” EXACTLY!! If you think that unborn children should have a legal right to live and not be slaughtered through abortion, then you are pro-life. It doesn’t matter if you think I’m an obnoxious a-hole; you’re still pro-life – you’re not “on the fence”.
I love photoshop, Janet. What kind of stuff do you do with it? I’d love to see some of your work. :)
Posted by: Bethany at April 29, 2008 6:55 PM
I’ll email you sometime to show you. I just play, mostly! I just have PS Elements, not the more “professional” one. Nite!
But John, it DOES matter because abortion is not an issue that is often voted on. What we do often vote for is city, state and federal politicians who are chosen to vote and create legislature in our interests.
So say, if you are part of the LGBT community, it doesn’t matter if you’re pro-life, you may not want to elect someone who believes homosexuals are going to hell and doesn’t think they should have the right to marry.
That pro-lifer will vote liberal, not because he/she wants abortion, but because he/she does not want other personal freedoms taken away as a result of the intolerance on the conservative side. That’s something you’ll have to remedy if you really want to convince people to vote for politicians who are pro-life.
Personally, I wish our politicians were more reflective of the larger spectrum of political opinions, rather than this duality that represents very few.
Real conservatives are really classical liberals. I am a conservative here in America – if I was an anti communist dissident in the former USSR or in Cuba I would be considered a liberal there and the dictators would be “conservative”.
Don’t hold your breath with these “convesions” a true conservative (classical liberal) is always pro life – thats why Guliani can never be a conservative.
Robert Downey Jr. is looking like Keanu Reeves these days…