Weekend question
About a nationwide poll it conducted April 7-9, the Associated Press reported:
Against McCain, Obama lost ground among women – from 57% in February to 47% in April. Obama dropped 12 points among women under 45, 14 points among suburban women and 15 points among married women.
Polls will come and go, but looking back over the past several weeks, why do you think Obama’s support among women dropped so drastically?
An interesting aside: As bad as the poll was for Obama, it was still skewed in his favor: The AP interviewed 489 Democrat voters and only 369 Republicans.
Apr.12, 2008 6:18 am |
Obama, Weekend question |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
An interesting aside: As bad as the poll was for Obama, it was still skewed in his favor: The AP interviewed 489 Democrat voters and only 369 Republicans.
That’s because Democrats outnumber Republicans.
“The balance of party identification in the American electorate now favors the Democratic Party by a decidedly larger margin than in either of the two previous presidential election cycles.
“In 5,566 interviews with registered voters conducted by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press during the first two months of 2008, 36% identify themselves as Democrats, and just 27% as Republicans.
“The share of voters who call themselves Republicans has declined by six points since 2004, and represents, on an annualized basis, the lowest percentage of self-identified Republican voters in 16 years of polling by the Center.
“The Democratic Party has also built a substantial edge among independent voters. Of the 37% who claim no party identification, 15% lean Democratic, 10% lean Republican, and 12% have no leaning either way.”
but looking back over the past several weeks, why do you think Obama’s support among women dropped so drastically?
I think it’s because of his comment that he didn’t want his girls “punished” with a baby.
Whether he liked it or not, his comment was viewed that babies are a punishment. I tend to think that this struck a nerve with women, especially mothers, whether they are democrats or republicans.
What was he thinking???
JLM: I think it’s because of his comment that he didn’t want his girls “punished” with a baby.
I agree! also, women are more “intuitive” than men. I think many see (both women and men) that there isn’t much substance behind the “pretty face”.
The baby punishment comment was very telling.
It’s also because the liberals are lying about Iraq.
HisMan: I just want to apologize for my lashing out at you last week over the Clinton/Obama thing. I just feel that you took my comments the wrong way, as I was simply excited about the fact that two high-powered figures in American politics were coming to my school. I realize that you do not like either of them, and I don’t necessarily support them myself. I personally don’t like Bill Clinton much because of his conduct in the White House, and that’s something we can both agree on. Ron Paul visited yesterday, and my boyfriend had dinner with him. Ann Coulter visited last week, Chelsea Clinton was here two days ago, and Hillary will probably make an appearance sometime soon. I just happen to find it awesome that my school is at the hub of a large election, and so many famous politicians and political figures are visiting. I again apologize for my being overly angry with you, but I believe you were being quite judgmental of my character because you mistakenly thought I was supporting these candidates. When you said “most intelligent women would not be in a room with Bill Clinton”, I was offended, taking it to mean that you thought I was unintelligent and supported anything he did in the White House. I sincerely would have been excited if it had been McCain visiting as well. I harbor no ill will toward you or the fact that you dislike the democratic candidates so much, just that you would lump me into a group of what you believe to be “unintelligent, Godless, loser liberals”. I am much more of a moderate, believe it or not, and would choose no party affiliation if Pennsylvania would allow independents to vote in primaries.
Again, please accept my apologies. I have no desire to argue with you over mundane, pointless matters and have either of us called into question over pettiness.
I am very sorry to hear about your nephew. I offer my deepest condolences to you, your family, and your niece. You are in my thoughts and prayers.
-Lyssie
Ditto JLM and Janet.
I missed something, Hisman. Have we lost a loved one in Iraq?
May God rest his soul.
We have lost many loved ones in Iraq, and if you vote for McCain, we’ll lose many more and perhaps have the draft reinstated.
Three years ago I took a class on the Vietnam War and the parallels to the Iraq War are shocking. We’re not going to win this one. We’re just going to end up killing more of our honorable troops meaninglessly.
They have died for nothing. That is not to say they are not brave, patriotic, honorable, wonderful people for doing what they did, but our government has been sending them away to the slaughter without caring about what happens to them. If you really cared about the troops, you wouldn’t wish more of them to die in Iraq, that’s all.
My world view has ranged from Christianity to Buddhism to ontology. In the final analysis, it is what it is. A pre-viable fetus is by definition still protoplasm. If life is truly valuable, how can we support the continuation of the Bush 43 war? How can we then support McCain, who not only supports the continuation of this war, but indirectly supports torture as a means of fighting terrorism? Support for McCain will drop as real Americans realize that it takes more than being a war hero to be a good president. Check this website on what our Founding Fathers thought:http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0950.htm
Dear McCain,
why be “anti-torture” publicly, but vote against a bill to abolish it?
Thanks,
Kate
Jill, I think I note in your comment bitterness over the local factory in your small town being shut down. This is why you cling to things like your faith and traditional family values. It’s why I went out and bought the gun. Excuse me, now, but I have to go out and shoot a squirrel. I’ll chew its meat with my one tooth. I’ll then attend church where I’ll handle snakes and speak in tongues.
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/the-game-changi.html#more
Dear McCain,
why be “anti-torture” publicly, but vote against a bill to abolish it?
Thanks,
Kate
Dear Kate,
Polls will come and go, but looking back over the past several weeks, why do you think Obama’s support among women dropped so drastically?
(seriously, with you being a huge fan of Obama’s, I am eager to hear your reasoning on this one!)
(seriously, with you being a huge fan of Obama’s, I am eager to hear your reasoning on this one!)JLM
JLM,
Seriously, do you think it is American to advocate torture? Check this website on what our Founding Fathers thought:http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeff0950.htm Or are you a neocon and not an American?
Seriously, do you think it is American to advocate torture?
Or are you a neocon and not an American?
hektor,
Maybe a subject for another day….I’d really like to hear what Obama supporters have to say about the topic of this thread, and the question proposed…you know, this one:
“Polls will come and go, but looking back over the past several weeks, why do you think Obama’s support among women dropped so drastically?”
Are you a “taker” or a deviator?
Lyssie:
No problem. I apologize as well.
I did not lose anyone in Iraq.
My nephew-in-law Sean Cooper is brain dead from a reaction with pain killers. He is now in a vegatative state in a hospice.
I am from the Vietnam era. I was nearly drafted and would have gladly served.
I lost many friends in that war and many that were wounded. What the pukes in this country did to Viet Nam Veteranw, especially one supreme yellow to the core liberal, John Kerry, was beyond despicable.
Vietnam was a mistake because traitors like silver spoon born Jane Fonda sold out to the Communist Chinese. 2,000,000 innocent women, children and men were killed by the Cambodian Pol-Pot regime, as well as countless American sympathizers, as a result of our pull-out.
The sad thing is that Viet Nam could have been easily won by a far superior military had they not been ham-strung by liberals. In fact, it was the liberals’ beloved knight-in-shining-armor womanizing John F. Kennedy who was ultimately responsible for getting us into that whole fiasco and a thoroughly corrupted Lyndon B, Johnson, another liberal genius, who totally mismanaged that war.
So, your witty college professor who was probably a coward draft dodger knows nothing about the real Viet Nam or the Iraq War. Please do not dishonor the over 50,000 valiant men and woman who lost their lives in Vietnam.
If we pull out of Iraq, millions of innocent people will be killed. The 4,000 military personnel that gave their lives willingly as part of an all-volunteer service. The result of a pull-out would be a stronger Iran whose President desires to bring about the end of the world and the appearance of the 12th Imam and the destruction of Israel. These people are insane and the ONLY way to deal with them is by force. And the only thing that keeps our country from collapsing at this moment is our support of Israel. So, the statements you make are extremely dangerous and have world destrying implications.
Please don’t dishonor my friends and don’t you dare dishonor my son who fought for 4 and 1/2 years in the Middle East receiving three medals for bravery in combat.
I’m so sorry to hear about your nephew-in-law. My prayers are still with you and your families and of course, Sean.
Thank you to your son for his brave service for this Country. I’m very sorry you lost many friends in Vietnam. God bless you.
I second Janet’s comment, HisMan!
JLM, not sure i understand “taker” or deviator?
given that the broad messages of either candidates have not changed, i cannot provide you a rationale reason for the change in the polls. mccain still supports a tax cut, which is fiscally nuts! he supports a war, which william buckley opposed. kudos that he support stem cell research. imho, obama has addressed the race issue,for those who can understand nuances, and not just sound-bites. while obama was a professor in constitutional law, i hope that he has the broad-minded view of thomas jefferson.
Hisman, I third those comments. That was an excellent and very patriotic post from which I appreciated so much.
And I am sorry to hear about your nephew in law too!
We have lost many loved ones in Iraq, and if you vote for McCain, we’ll lose many more and perhaps have the draft reinstated.
Three years ago I took a class on the Vietnam War and the parallels to the Iraq War are shocking. We’re not going to win this one. We’re just going to end up killing more of our honorable troops meaninglessly.
They have died for nothing. That is not to say they are not brave, patriotic, honorable, wonderful people for doing what they did, but our government has been sending them away to the slaughter without caring about what happens to them. If you really cared about the troops, you wouldn’t wish more of them to die in Iraq, that’s all.
Posted by: Edyt at April 12, 2008 1:09 PM
*****************
Damn straight.
I went through four years of AFROTC from 1970 through 1974 – I was the first woman to be commissioned from that detatchment. And during those four years one thing I kept realizing was just how futile and pointless the war in Nam was. The things being done there – the decisions made – we could see while studying previous wars every mistake that was being made. And Iraq is an even bigger cluster**** than Nam. The REASONS Nam started were very complicated – it was a progression and we werent the only ones involved. We are in Iraq because that slack jawed drooling imbecile in the White House invaded the country without a shred of reason to do so. And now we are hip deep in a quagmire with no end in sight.
Please don’t dishonor my friends and don’t you dare dishonor my son who fought for 4 and 1/2 years in the Middle East receiving three medals for bravery in combat.
Posted by: HisMan at April 12, 2008 10:25 PM
*******************
Saying we have no business IN Iraq and saying we need to get OUT of Iraq as quickly as possible in no way ‘dishoners’ anyone in uniform. In fact it honors them enough to say ENOUGH blood has been shed and we need to let Iraq settle Iraq problems.
Texas Red:
As usual, you miss the point.
This is the kind of stuff people like Texas Red don’t want you to know.
Did you know that 47 countries have re-established their embassies in Iraq ?
Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?
Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated,
364 schools are under rehabilitation,
263 new schools are now under construction
and 38 new schools have been completed in Iraq ?
Did you know that Iraq ‘s higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities,
46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers,
all currently operating?
Did you know that 25 Iraq students departed for the United States in January 2005
for the re-established Fulbright program?
Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?
They have 5 -100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels
and a naval infantry regiment.
Did you know that Iraq ‘s Air Force consists of three operational squadrons,
which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft
(under Iraqi operational control)
which operate day and night, and will soon add
16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?
Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist
unit and a Commando Battalion?
Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000
fully trained and equipped police officers?
Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq
that produce over 3500 new officers every 8 weeks?
Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq ?
They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations,
22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.
Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5
have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?
Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?
HisMan, Nice statistics, though Iraq probably had most of those statistics before year 2001 also. Also, hundreds of thousands less civilian deaths. Iran also had a lot less influence back then: how do quantify their new level of influence now? Sadr’s militia is ~60,000 now. Maybe zero in 2001? General Patraeus said he cannot see the light at the end of the channel! (or so I recall)
My friend Jeremy was in Iraq doing special missions. He has a great body so they sent him on a lot of very physically exhausting jobs. He came back because he could not mentally handle what he was being forced to do.
He’s a tough guy, but he was crying when he told me about going into houses and shooting up entire families. The government MADE him do this… he thought he was going to be targeting terrorists. Instead he was killing little kids, mothers, aunts, innocent men. Lots of soldiers in Iraq are killing innocent people. Well, he knew it was wrong. It drove him crazy. He was discharged, but now he just does drugs. All the time.
Maybe he didn’t “die” in the war, but I lost a friend who was really close to me because of it. I know a lot of people who have had friends and family come back and just be ghosts. Living, breathing ghosts.
What’s worse is that VA hospitals aren’t really helping for mental disorders or PTSD.
What’s worse is that the horribly underreported suicide rates that have spiked for our soldiers.
It breaks my heart to say these things because, like you, HisMan, I would love to see the soldiers come home victorious and proud. But it is NOT patriotic to send our men and women overseas to kill innocent people and be killed for reasons that we don’t clearly understand. What is going on in Iraq is very very wrong and we have to admit that we are not the world’s police and we cannot save everyone. We need to take care of our own first.
Edyt:
That story is just what it is, a story. And if you’re friend has the kind of character that justifies him taking drugs it is that same character that made him what sounds like a bad soldier, willing to diss his fellow comrades in arms. I wouldn’t believe anything a guy like that said. And you fall for it, hook, line and sinker.
I also know a lot of people who have returned from Iraq and it is absolutely preposterous to say that our military is deliberately targeting families as part of a military strategy.
Again, these types of stories are lies made up by the liberal media who hate America and all that it stands for. This is the same media that supports the abortion of innocent children in the womb, partial birth abortion and born alive abortion. It is absolutely inconsistent to believe anything these people spew about our military when they are willing to do such things.
You forget that my own son was there for more than four years and he gags when these types of stories are told because they are so opposite of what is really happening. I don’t doubt that there are difficulties in Iraq but that is normal to the aftermath of war. How long do you think it took to stabilize things in Germany and Japan after WWII? I will guarantee this. If Obama or Clinton is elected, sometime in May or June of ’09, things will have miraculosly turned around because now the liberals are in power. It’s very sad that you believe this stuff.
Don’t you understand that all of this BS is orchestrated because of the liberal lust for power? They can’t stand that a professing Christian, Republican President is making a positive impact against terrorism. The liberal media are the true terrorists of our age.
Here’e the real tragedy in this Edyt. You are so willing to believe lies that it has come to the point where you don’t even believe in the author of truth, Jesus Christ. That is a monumental tragedy. My prayer for you is that somehow your eyes will be opened.
Hektor:
Did you forget that Iraq invaded Kuwait? Do your forget that SH started oil well fires?
Mass graves, torture facilities, Kurd families murdured?
Yep, your assumptions are right on the money.
HisMan, Yes, Iraq invaded Kuwait. And yes on the oil well fires. So, this war is about oil? Because the statistics are still less than the hundreds of thousands civilian deaths right now. And recall that Bush 41 advised Bush 43 to NOT invade Iraq. Only a neocon can possibly believe that we are making progress in Iraq. General Patraeus has said that things are “tenuous”. What does the word “tenuous” mean to you: hopeful?
Edyt,
I by no means believe what I am going to say, but want to show you what you guys sound like to us when you give us the same arguments…
What’s worse is that VA hospitals aren’t really helping for mental disorders or PTSD.
*
What’s worse is that the horribly underreported suicide rates that have spiked for our soldiers.>
Men and women that are in Iraq CHOSE to be there. So some will regret their choice, but some won’t. I don’t think it’s our place to stop all soldiers from going to Iraq just because a few are sorry they made that decision.
There is no such think as PTSD…Sure maybe a few of these guys have mental problems after coming home from the war, but they probably had them before they went in. I mean, just because a handful of them claim to be emotional wrecks, we cannot automatically attribute this to the war! Do you have any statistics from unbiased sources??? One anecdotal story does not a trend make!
And just cuz YOU think it’s morally wrong, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people feel differently! What makes your opinion right?
Do you see where I’m going with this? Sound familiar?
Don’t you understand that all of this BS is orchestrated because of the liberal lust for power? They can’t stand that a professing Christian, Republican President is making a positive impact against terrorism. The liberal media are the true terrorists of our age.
Posted by: HisMan at April 13, 2008 2:57 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really?
Did the “liberal media” do this?:
http://irregulartimes.com/dead.html
(All of these pics were taken in 2003 – the year we invaded Iraq and LONG before the insurgency.)
MK,
If I hadn’t been on this blog long enough, I’d say you’re selling out!
Glad to see you back. Keep it coming.
Edyt,
I wouldn’t go as far as Hisman and say that your buddy’s a liar; I do know a former Navy Seal that has a huge weight on his shoulders due to the Persian Gulf War. Could be his threshold took all that it could take.
At any rate, I’m sorry he is suffering the way he is.
Carder,
Why? Did I sound like I was selling out? I just didn’t want anyone to think that I don’t believe that guys could come home from the war messed up because of the war.
And Honestly, I’ve been here the whole time. I’ve read every word that’s been written. Sometimes it’s nice to just be a bystander tho…
Carder, et al.
Bobby made a comment about evolution and I feel the same way…He said that Evolution was so far out of his league and he was woefully unknowledgable about it, so he wasn’t forming any hardline beliefs about it, one way or the other. I feel the same way.
I also feel the same way about the war. It is so complicated, and I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. I normally stay out of these conversations. I don’t like war of any kind, but I recognize the need for it sometimes. There are so many players in this particular one that my heads spins. So if I don’t sound “pro war” enough, or anti war enough, it’s cuz the whole thing is too much to take in.
It’s easy to say “Get out of the war” when you’re sittin in your comfy chair, but really, the whole terrorism thing scares the bejeepers out of me. Being on this site has taught me that there is no limit to the depravity of the human spirit, and anything is possible. I just trust our guys to know what they’re doing…
mk, From the SF Chronicle, the sources are from unbiased military reports: — According to a 2005 VA study of 168,528 Iraqi veterans, 20 percent were diagnosed with psychological disorders, including 1,641 with PTSD.
— In an earlier VA study this year, almost 12,500 of nearly 245,000 veterans visited VA counseling centers for readjustment problems and symptoms of PTSD.
— The Marines and Army were nearly four times more likely to report PTSD than Navy or Air Force because of their greater exposure to combat situations.
— Enlisted men were twice as likely as officers to report PTSD.
— 8 percent to 10 percent of active-duty women and retired military women who served in Iraq suffer from PTSD.
— Studies show that U.S. women serving in Iraq suffer from more pronounced and debilitating forms of PTSD than their male counterparts.
— A Defense Department study of combat troops returning from Iraq found 1 in 6 soldiers and Marines acknowledged symptoms of severe depression and PTSD, and 6 in 10 of these same veterans were unlikely to seek help out of fear their commanders and fellow troops would treat them differently.
— A 2003 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine said about 1 in 6 soldiers returning from Iraq suffered from PTSD. Interviews with those at risk showed that only 23 percent to 40 percent sought professional help, most typically because they feared it would hurt their military careers.
IMHO, your comments that there is no such “thing” as PTSD is completely wrong.
Marykay, awesome analogy at 3:40! Perfect!
Hektor, she was making a point about abortion, not the war. It actually had nothing really do do with PTSD. You probably weren’t here when we were discussing this before, so you don’t recognize the argument. She was trying to make the point about post abortive syndrome being a real problem for women who abort, despite the claims that women make denying it, which were parallel to the arguments she was making about PTSD. I hope that clears it up for you.
Hektor:
No, the war wasn’t about oil, it was about a leader of a country who was willing to do very evil things like invade a country for no reason and waste our God-given natural resources. This guy was dangerous to us and to his neighbors.
I didn’t see any environmentalists protesting against Saddam Hussein when he started these fires. Why can’t you guys be consistent?
Bethany: She was trying to make the point about post abortive syndrome being a real problem for women who abort, despite the claims that women make denying it, which were parallel to the arguments she was making about PTSD.
B, some women do have post traumatic stress after having abortions, no question about it. I don’t think the rate of incidence qualifies it as a syndrome, though. With those returning from Iraq, is there really an argument about it?
It’s war for goodness sake! There are casualties of war, most of them unpleasant.
Who in their right mind wants a war or think it good?
The alternative to not resisting the evil represented by Saddam Hussein was more horrendous and therefore he had to be confronted.
Would you not protect your family against a gun-wielding maniac who was up the street making all kinds of threats agianst you, refusing to back down, even against authority? He was a lunatic with much power.
Hektor,
If you read my comment carefully you’ll see that I said I didn’t believe what I was writing, but wanted to show you how you sound when you claim that women who have abortions don’t suffer PTSD from them, or that they should deal with it cuz they CHOSE it, or that if they are suffering from mental stress afterwards perhaps they were suffering before the abortion.
Obviously, it worked because you replied the same way we do. By posting studies that show numerous cases where soldiers DO suffer from PTSD.
Of course when WE show you OUR statistics or “stories” you come back with “Biased source” or “It’s not really PTSD” or any number of other things that totally condescend to these women that are in pain and regret their abortions…think about it.
MK,
Hey, no, I was being sarcastic. I knew exactly where you were heading with the analogy. Brilliant.
mk, bethany,
You’re right, I was not referring to abortion. I only responded specifically to mk’s comment that there is no such thing as PTSD. And since Edyt was talking about her friend coming back from Iraq, I provided the relevant info, from the unbiased military medical reports.
Hisman, You definitely are a neocon and not a real conservative. William Buckley, the true conservative, opposed the war in Iraq for precisely the reason that it was intervention. Notice that Bush 43 has changed the reason on why we invaded Iraq at least 3 times. Version 1 was WMD, which did not exist. Hmm, sounds like that we invaded a country for no reason? Nuff said. Did you read those links about what our Founding Fathers thought?
Beats me why a pro-abortion politician would have women’s support in the first place. I realize that some women really do have enthusiasm for abortion, but they’re pretty alien to me. It’s as if there is a group of men who really want people to twist their ‘nads off with a pipe wrench.
Well, I’m personally opposed to torture, but I’d not want to impose my views on other people.
Carder,
Whew!
Hektor:
The WMDs were in Iraq per one of the Christian generals. He wrote a book about it.
The WMD’s are now in Syria.
I think for myself by the way.
If you want to label me call be a pro-lifer.
Neocon means nothing to me.
Men and women that are in Iraq CHOSE to be there. So some will regret their choice, but some won’t. I don’t think it’s our place to stop all soldiers from going to Iraq just because a few are sorry they made that decision.
To be fair, they chose to join the military. I don’t believe they had a choice as to where to go. But you make a good point, they did choose to go to Iraq. And I don’t think we should stop them from joining the military or serving for our country. That is their CHOICE and they deserve to have it! (They should not be FORCED into joining the military) However, if the government is abusing its privilege of having brave men and women fight for it, then the government needs to reevaluate its goals.
There is no such think as PTSD…Sure maybe a few of these guys have mental problems after coming home from the war, but they probably had them before they went in. I mean, just because a handful of them claim to be emotional wrecks, we cannot automatically attribute this to the war! Do you have any statistics from unbiased sources??? One anecdotal story does not a trend make!
Actually there is, and since you’re arguing about abortion too, I’ll say I’m sure there are instances of PTSD following an abortion. But like Doug said, the incidence rates aren’t nearly as devastating as our loyal men and women coming home from Iraq, and because they are serving FOR this country, they deserve the absolute best care they can get.
And just cuz YOU think it’s morally wrong, doesn’t make it so. Plenty of people feel differently! What makes your opinion right?
I don’t think this war is morally wrong. There are some very concrete, objective reasons that would be wrong regardless of whether your morals agreed or disagreed with them.
And I’m sure other people do feel differently, and they have every right to think so. Personally, these are my thoughts and I am expressing them.
I know you’re trying to argue a pro-choice argument, but they don’t align well enough to work out. I hope I’ve clarified.
HisMan, I do not believe my friend is lying and I’m very angry that you, who seem to defend the troops to no end, would not defend this one. I’m disappointed by your lack of character when it comes to someone who came home from the war and continued to suffer its effects. I guess you only support “most” of the troops, but not really all of them. That’s sad. That’s really really sad.
HisMan, Pro-lifer is ok with me as the Bill of Rights does allow you to think on your own. For this same reason, pro-lifers cannot impose their views on others. The debate regarding a pre-viable fetus is completely open, depending on one’s scientific background. For me, a pre-viable fetus is by definition still protoplasm. A neocon would be one who has such rigid views of the world regardless of the facts. One can always selectively find one book to support false views, regardless of the preponderance of data which shows otherwise… Or in this case the lack of WMD found. :-) This is the reason Bush 43 had all these different versions for going to Iraq.
hektor: 11:56:The debate regarding a pre-viable fetus is completely open, depending on one’s scientific background. For me, a pre-viable fetus is by definition still protoplasm.
Didn’t we learn in biology class that all human cells have a nucleus, containing DNA which is unique for every human being, surrounded by protoplasm?
I haven’t read all the posts, but just wanted to mention that a fetus is more than just protoplasm.
Hektor:
For the majority of the history of this country abortion has been a crime. So who has imposed their views on pro-lifers by using flawed arguments in making it legal?
And please, when you decribe a baby as protoplasm, what are you? Why does just being born change you from being protoplasm to a human being? Physical human life starts at conception my friend and I’ll go farther than that. Because every human being was planned in God’s heart from the foundations of the earth and all life an expression of His will and intent, life is eternal.
Edyt:
You desribed an individual who made some outrageous claims against our military by stating that they are targeting families. These are patently false claims. I do not support troops who tell lies. You are being duped perhaps for other reasons. Sorry if that angers you, that is not my aim. However, I won’t compromise my values for anyone or for any reason for the sake of political correctness and trying to avoid offending someone. After all, the failure of those who believe rightly but fail to act on those beliefs is why we have legalized abortion.
HisMan,
Jeremy said he went into homes where they were looking for terrorists and then ended up killing entire families instead.
Are you in Iraq right now, watching every troop? No, then you don’t really know what’s going on there.
I do not think my friend would purposefully lie when he had other perfectly good reasons for having PTSD.
I’d also like to note that he was discharged a few years ago, so what the troops are doing now could be completely different. But in the beginning, that is what he reported they were doing.
Lyssie:
I re-read my post to you and while the first part is to you, the second part is adressed to Edyt.
Sometimes I get carried away with my criticism of liberals.
The Clintons did irreperable moral harm (the worst kind of harm) to this country and it is difficult to understand how far down the slippery slope our contry has fallen to even be considering Hillary. I guess we get what we deserve.
I was actually very liberal when I was in college having supported and campaigned for George McGovern because he is an honest guy, although I didn’t like the anti-war stuff because I knew what would happen if we lost that war. I really disliked Richard Nixon even though he ended the war.
Being older I can look back and see how things have really gotten worse and it is very troubling. I am worried about what my kids will have to face. Thanks for caring enough to respond. You have a lot of class.
HisMan: For the majority of the history of this country abortion has been a crime. So who has imposed their views on pro-lifers by using flawed arguments in making it legal?
The “flawed argument” was on the part of doctors, who felt that midwives were encroaching on what the docs felt was their rightful province – that is the primary reason abortion became illegal in some states in the 1800’s.
And, not that it’s really a big deal, but the “majority of the history of this country” part isn’t correct, or is barely correct for some states.
We’ve had all the years since 1973 with legal abortion, and more for some states as with NY, where it’s been since 1970 or 1971, I believe. If abortion had been legal to the 1850-1860 range, then it’d be pretty much 50/50, and for some states it wasn’t illegal before that.
As now, abortion was legal to a point in gestation when this country was founded, before, during and after the writing of the Constitution.
Janet,Thanks for the clarification. Protoplasm was used as a metaphor for the whole cell. And the DNA is unique, as are those for protozoa too. Can’t remember the book, though I recall the conclusion that God is the DNA.
Hisman, Your life view comes closest to Buddhism, which posits all life forms as sentient. That is the reason that Buddhists are vegetarians. So, how can you can justify war and killing for the “right reasons”? Defense is one matter, though recall that we were not attacked by Iraq. QED