Breaking news: KS Supreme Court unseals Planned Parenthood court docs against Kline
It is unprecedented that an entity being prosecuted files a lawsuit against the prosecutor, but that’s exactly what Planned Parenthood of Overland Park, KS, did in June 2007 against Johnson Co. DA Phill Kline.
Kline had charged the clinic with aborting minor girls and not reporting the abortions to the state, and then falsifying medical documents to cover up.
Then PP asked the KS Supreme Court to seal the documents case, which incredibly it did.
Today, the Supremes unsealed them.
Here is what the court docs prove, now being given the light of day…
![Morrisson_Letter[1].JPG](https://www.jillstanek.com/Morrisson_Letter%5B1%5D.JPG)
This is a clear victory. Kline has maintained all along the sealed material should see the light of day. No more hiding for PP.
Now KS courts must allow the rule of law to prevail.
May.02, 2008 2:49 pm |
Industry watch |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Their Little House of Cards is about to blow…!
YES!! YES!! YES!!
Hey Carla,
Did you get to read JivinJ’s Telegraph article? The one about 2 gals and the decisions they made? Does it ring a bell with you?
There are a few facts in this post that aren’t quite right.
First, it was the entire case that was sealed, not the documents. The suit is against Kline, and is seeking return of the medical documents that he took from the AG’s office to his new office in Johnson County.
Second, the KS AG, Steve Six, is also pursuing a similar case against Judge Anderson for the return of the medical records. For the record, Anderson was the judge presiding over the original proceeding in which Kline obtained the records as AG.
Third, all the parties (including PP) had agreed that the cases did not need to remain sealed. PP was not fighting having the case unsealed, and was in agreement with unsealing it. Whoop, whoop, not such a big victory after all, huh?
Fourth, Kline has NOT been given proper legal clearance to maintain his hold on the medical records. In fact, that is the issue being sorted out in both PP’s AND the Attorney General’s cases against him.
Fifth, probable cause to proceed with a suit is NOT the same thing as a probability that a crime has been committed. As has been famously said, it wouldn’t be impossible to get an indictment against a ham sandwich.
Hi Carder,
Yes I did. Always rings a bell with me and takes me back to 1990 when I made that choice I regret.
Hiero,
..the Truth about the KS PP is coming out, we are happy about that…are you not happy with that?
Awesome!!!!
RSD, I think you may be confused about what’s actually going on here. All that just happened was that the cases proceeding against KLINE have been unsealed.
Off Topic – Farewell for now:
I’ve only been commenting here for a very little while, but I have to go away for a while.
I’m starting to develop preeclampsia again, so I’ve been ordered off anything that might raise my blood pressure without producing contractions.
The baby is full term and I’m “okay” right now, but hospitals, organ damage and seizures are things I’d rather avoid, so hopefully I’ll have this little one very soon, before we have to try and induce. I’ll check in when the baby is born, but will probably be a bit busy for a while.
Comment on the dangers of pregnancy to the health of the mother in 3…2…1…
..sure, Hiero..but with that unsealing, the docs that PP is hiding also gets unsealed…
Thanks for joining us, Elizabeth G. Hope all is well with you and pookie.
Leaving is a wise thing to do. This blog gets my blood boiling, too.
Elizabeth, I’m so sorry you have to go! It was so nice getting to know you the other day on the phone. You seem so nice. I hope that after you recover from having a baby and start feeling better, you will be able to join us again!
God Speed Elizabeth G!! Take care of yourself and baby! :)
Elizabeth,
We will include you in our prayers for a safe delivery…
As Heiro indicates, this posting distorts the effect of the ruling, and the issues in the case.
Kansas City.com has a pretty good article online, and further information and analysis should be forthcoming, as the decision was just released today.
Good luck, Elizabeth G. Come back as soon as you can, y’hear?
Best,
Doug
Hiero, 2:09p:
1. Right on “case.” Change made.
2. So what? This story wasn’t about Steve Six. Nevertheless, he was appointed by Gov. Sebelius, who is in bed with PP.
3. PP requested the case sealed to begin with, a highly unusual request that was highly unusually granted by the Supremes. They’re righting a wrong.
4. Wrong. Kline HAS been given the proper legal clearance to be in possession of the redacted abortion records. It has been established that Kline has had permission granted by Judge Anderson to have the redacted abortion records in his possession.
5. I’ll take “probable evidence” by two judges that PP committed a crime. I’m sure your side wishes that weren’t so, no matter if you try to dismiss it.
Elizabeth G.:
Today is the feast of St. Monica. She is the patron saint of homemakers, married women, mothers, victims of abuse, widows, wives and disappointing children. Her patience and persistence helped others find their way to the Lord. May she watch over you and may God bless you!
Hiero:
Don’t you want the truth to come out? Aren’t you concerned about the health and safety of women who seek “reproductive health care”?
Or are you just a typical proabort who just covers up the evils of abortion with lies and more lies.
Elizabeth G: please keep healthy. I will keep you and your baby in my prayers. Drop us a line to let us know how you are doing now and then.
Elizabeth G.,
SURE! Just when I finally figured out that there were two different Elizabeths…
You have a big, fat, healthy baby…and send pictures and birthdate, and weight and name and…
Or I’ll send the dogs!
We love having you here, so this better not be good-bye…
You made a good choice. Both to have the baby, and stay away from the blog…give “daddy” a hug. See if he wants to post for you.
God Bless all three of you…
mk
Hi MK,
My best girlfriend has a 14 year old son heading to Wash. D.C. One of the places that his class will be visiting is the Holocaust Museum. He is a very sensitive boy and I am wondering if he might have a tough time with it. Are there pictures, piles of hair, shoes etc.?
He also was picked to lay a wreath at The Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. cool eh?
Thoughts?
I am sure there will be apologies forthcoming from all of the Phil Kline detractors once he is completely vindicated for trying to enforce the law.
Carla,
Tell him to bring lots of tissues!
Yes, there are piles of hair and teeth. There is an actual train car that carried the jews. There is a cart that held their bodies. There is a miniature replica of the gas showers. There are stories. And videos. And pictures…God, so many pictures.
He will come back very different from when he left. Be there to talk about it with him if he needs it. Tell him to take his time and read EVERYTHING, and to go outside and take a break if he needs it. There is no shame in crying, or feeling angry, or upset. The only shame is if you come out feeling indifferent.
I saw a special on this recently, and one of the things that really stuck with me…
The historian on the show was asked if he thought the nazis were monsters or demons. And he replied that the scariest thing about it, was that they weren’t monsters. Or demons. But rather, they were just ordinary people. Given the right circumstances, ordinary people can do these types of things.
Now that’s frightening.
MK, excellent comments, and I sure think you’re right.
Carla, it’d be interesting to hear how he felt if you get the description later on.
Thank you so much, MK!! Hmmmm…I don’t know if I could even get through it. :O
I will be talking with him this weekend and will tell him what you said.
Maybe someday we’ll have a National Memorial for the Unborn in DC.
Someday.
Carder,
I’ll be the first in line…
Doug, thanks. It was one of the hardest things I ever did. I felt the same way after seeing Hotel Rwanda. I just got so ANGRY!
There is a National Memorial for the Unborn in Chattanooga, TN. :)
Road trip??
No way…what’s it called? Road trip, huh? Do you camp?
It’s called National Memorial for the Unborn, babe. I kid you not.
Norma McCorvey and Sandra Cano were at the dedication in 1997. I met them 2 weeks ago!!! Sweet, sweet ladies.
Yes, I camp in hotels. :)
You met the Defector and the Pawn??
Awesome.
Have you been to that Memorial?
“The historian on the show was asked if he thought the nazis were monsters or demons. And he replied that the scariest thing about it, was that they weren’t monsters. Or demons. But rather, they were just ordinary people. Given the right circumstances, ordinary people can do these types of things.
Now that’s frightening.”
@MK: And that’s true. Most of the Nazis (except the super higher ups) were just ordinary people. This was demonstrated in the 1960’s by Stanley Milgram. You’d be amazed at what obedience and authoritarian coercion can do to a normal person. It IS very scary.
MK,
While a memorial like that in DC would be a dream come true, the frightening part is that the very images that would be on display there do not move the hearts of some of our PC friends ONE IOTA. It seems to fuel their rage.
Hi My Rae…countdown to the 16th. Just got an American Girl Catalog…lol
Carder,
Good point. But piles of bodies didn’t do much to move the german soldiers either…who knows. Hindsight is remarkable.
Carla,
Yes, I camp in hotels. :)
WIMP!
They were both pawns and now are defectors. :)
I would love to go one day.
Wimp with a tv and a shower…
Carla,
What was the occasion for meeting them?
Elizabeth….
I have had preeclampsia and high blood pressure probs with 5 of my 7 pregnancies. In my experience, it is the already born children that exacerbate the problem, LOL!
Good luck and God bless!
I was in Dallas for Operation Outcry and Heartbeat International Conferences. 300 of us marched to the Dallas Supreme Court and rallied in the park. Very cool. One year anniversary of PBA Ban.
Also met Eduardo from Bella. Just had to slip that in….:)
“Hi My Rae…countdown to the 16th. Just got an American Girl Catalog…lol”
Whoooooooo-hooooooooooo! Party! We’ll have to meet Elizabeth and Gabriella to the science museum or the aquarium or something! :D
*counts down days too*
Elizabeth,
You up for that? The aquarium or the Museum of Science and Industry?
Hey Rae,
Did you ever hook up at the Mall of America? Pics?
For those who would like more insight into the Nazi civil servant perpetrator and the Holocaust behind the scenes:
http://www.amazon.com/Architects-Annihilation-Auschwitz-Logic-Destruction/dp/0691089388/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209775718&sr=1-1
For those who want a real Rowanda movie:
http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Gates-John-Hurt/dp/B000RW3VDO/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1209775790&sr=8-2
Yes Rae and Sandy and I have got to get together! It is hard to plan!!
@MK: No we haven’t, I think we’ve all been too busy (well, I’m not busy, lol, I don’t do anything). I think we’re looking at possibly getting together sometime after Mother’s Day and after I get back from Chi-town.
BTW–watch the extras on Beyond the Gates. Every one of the crew actually lived through the massacre.
@MK: I see that you joined “Pro-Life” on facebook.
Good group. Good buncha people. :)
Carla: Also met Eduardo from Bella. Just had to slip that in….:)
Details please?!!
Elizabeth G: I’ll ask Saint Gerard, patron of pregnant mothers, to watch over you and your baby.
God Bless!
*finally has Wireless so now can use internet on laptop*
2. So what? This story wasn’t about Steve Six. Nevertheless, he was appointed by Gov. Sebelius, who is in bed with PP.
Well, it goes to point 4, which is that although Kline legally obtained the documents through discovery in his original action, it has not been established that he still has the right to hold on to them, since the original action ceased, and since he is no longer KSAG. Six is also suing to get the records returned.
3. PP requested the case sealed to begin with, a highly unusual request that was highly unusually granted by the Supremes. They’re righting a wrong.
I don’t know why they requested that the case be sealed, but all the unsealing does is release the pleadings to the public. The documents are still not part of the public record, unless they have been attached to the pleadings. And I don’t know for sure, but I’m betting that even so, the redacted medical records are still not public.
4. Wrong. Kline HAS been given the proper legal clearance to be in possession of the redacted abortion records. It has been established that Kline has had permission granted by Judge Anderson to have the redacted abortion records in his possession.
No, he hasn’t. He HAD the right, as AG. But the question is whether that right transferred to his new job. That is what both suits are over, and the results are not in yet.
5. I’ll take “probable evidence” by two judges that PP committed a crime. I’m sure your side wishes that weren’t so, no matter if you try to dismiss it.
There is no such legal term as “probable evidence”. There is “probable cause” which is a criminal standard that applies to searches and warrants, and that applies to initial evidentiary hearings in criminal trials.
I think that’s what you’re thinking of. Anyway, it isn’t a determination of guilt or innocence, it’s just whether a trial can proceed.
Hiero:
Don’t you want the truth to come out? Aren’t you concerned about the health and safety of women who seek “reproductive health care”?
Or are you just a typical proabort who just covers up the evils of abortion with lies and more lies.
Posted by: Patricia at May 2, 2008 4:02 PM
Honestly Patricia, I think that the “truth” in this case is that Phill Kline is on an obsessive witch hunt, and that there is no real case.
we need more attorneys like Phil Kline.
MK: It was one of the hardest things I ever did. I felt the same way after seeing Hotel Rwanda. I just got so ANGRY!
Oh Sister, in some ways you and I are so alike.
I realize our differences, but the “man’s inhumanity to man” deal does apply.
“Honestly Patricia, I think that the “truth” in this case is that Phill Kline is on an obsessive witch hunt”
could be true, alot of witches work at PP.
And that’s true. Most of the Nazis (except the super higher ups) were just ordinary people. This was demonstrated in the 1960’s by Stanley Milgram. You’d be amazed at what obedience and authoritarian coercion can do to a normal person. It IS very scary.
Rae, in a related deal, in the movie ‘Psycho’ there is a scene where Norman Bates is trying to get the car of some people he killed to sink in a lake.
He pushes it in, but it doesn’t go clear out of sight, and the audience groans….
He’s a rank murderer, but the genius of Hitchcock gets people on his side, at that point.
All details are from memory, which may be faulty. I’m “home” tonight for the first time in a couple months, on dial-up and Holy Moly is it slow.
Doug
Rae,
Additionally, have you ever heard of a magazine called “The Sun”? I think you’d like it.
Doug,
Oh Sister, in some ways you and I are so alike.
You’re so familial tonight! Brothers, sisters…
I just wish you could see the inhumanity of abortion. Keeping with the family theme, that is Mothers being inhuman to their unborn children…
Hi Janet,
Had to get 4 children to bed…
Eduardo spoke at the Heartbeat International conference and then came to The Justice Foundation Banquet. He sat next to me at dinner….crazy. :) Anyway, he spoke about the number of babies that have been saved by the movie Bella.
Lisa Dudley and Cindy Collins have pictures of the march up on facebook.
MK, we simply disagree there. I don’t think it’s “inhumane” to want to end a pregnancy. Lots of people want to do it, and they are as human as any of us.
For me, it comes down to having empathy. No question that one can have it with the pregnant woman. Yet one really cannot with the unborn, until suffering is possible, until there is awareness.
@Teh Dougster: No, I’ve never heard of “The Sun”, unless you’re talking about the British tabloid (at least, I think it’s a British tabloid, may be a US one…).
Anyone heard from Jess or JLM?
Ahoy Jasper,
How come you don’t use your usual first name? No biggie, just a question.
Doug
“Yet one really cannot with the unborn, until suffering is possible, until there is awareness.”
Doug, would you have been sad if your wife lost your baby before awareness?
@Carla: I’ve been talking to Jess, she’s fine. ;)
Doug,
we got crossed up in our questions (both at the same time)
Jasper is dogs name, I would change to Steve, it’s no prob, but everybody knows me as Jasper now…
btw: 2 months on the road, International or domestic?
Thanks Rae. Just been thinking about her. :)
I think it’s bizarre that you call this story “Breaking News,” and totally overlook the fact that good ‘ol Phill got his a$$ kicked this week on a case that was still relevent:
Judge rejects Kline’s request for state abortion records
By DIANE CARROLL
The Kansas City Star
Johnson County District Attorney Phill Kline lost his bid Monday to obtain state abortion reports, but he said that would not stop his criminal prosecution of Planned Parenthood.
At the request of the Kansas Department of Health and Environment, District Judge Stephen Tatum quashed a subpoena Kline served on the department on March 24.
Under the law, Tatum said, the information Kline sought can be disclosed only to the state attorney general or the state Board of Healing Arts for use in a criminal or disciplinary investigation.
Carla:9:04: Hi Janet,
Had to get 4 children to bed…
Eduardo spoke at the Heartbeat International conference and then came to The Justice Foundation Banquet. He sat next to me at dinner….crazy. :) Anyway, he spoke about the number of babies that have been saved by the movie Bella.
No Carla, I meant “details” as in “how gorgeous was he”? :) You sat next to him at dinner? Were you able to eat anything? Lol! Maybe it’s up on Utube. I’ll have to check.
Oh!! :)
He is gorgeous! Very sweet and gracious and did I mention gorgeous?
Janet,
Go to Youtube and watch Eduardo Story of Life. So awesome!
Rae, MK,
Either of those places would ROCK..although I heard they’re closing the oceanarium soon at the shedd aquarium..they said it would be closed for a year so we may want to get in there before it does!
@Elizabeth: I hope it’ll be open until around May 20th!
Jasper’s quote of the day:
“Horrifying new law”
~Blog post Title from Pro-abort Chingona from Shakesville.com, that discusses Oklahoma bill, SB 1878, that recently passed, which requires that at least an hour before an abortion, an abortionist must perform an ultrasound and display the image of the unborn baby so the mother can see it if she chooses.
Way to go, Oklahoma. Maybe this author needs some medication if this new law makes her stomach churn. (See rest of article)
http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/horrifying-new-law-forced-ultrasounds.html
Janet, did you read all the comments? Saves a lot of time and they cover the situation quite well.
Hal: 12:58:
Are you talking about Jasper’s quote about the Shakesville.com story? or Jill’s story?
Carla,
Anyone heard from Jess or JLM?
Posted by: Carla at May 2, 2008 9:15 PM
I’ve been wondering the same thing…
Rae,
Does Jess say why she hasn’t been on here in over a week?
Rae..it is supposed to be open until september but then it closes :(
so we can do either one..the museum of science and industry or the shedd aquarium..whichever you want.
but i can’t do it on a tuesday,thursday,or friday..cause I have school still. Stupid school. :( Any other days would work though..I don’t know what days of the week you’re going to be here..I’ll have to check.
p.s. I’ll facebook you my cell phone # so we can chat about the details.
“Yet one really cannot with the unborn, until suffering is possible, until there is awareness.”
Jasper: Doug, would you have been sad if your wife lost your baby before awareness?
Yes, had we decided to have one – we both would have been sad. That’s based on our desires, though, not empathy with the unborn. And not to say that one can’t “feel sorry” for the unborn there, but it’s a matter of personification, the emotion being in the mind of the observer.
……
Jasper is dog’s name, I would change to Steve, it’s no prob, but everybody knows me as Jasper now…
Ha! I totally understand that. Most of my user names and passwords are based on a dog my dad had, hundreds of sites and uses over the years.
…..
btw: 2 months on the road, International or domestic?
A little of both. I work in the continental US, but went to Argentina with my wife three weeks ago. We also have two places, one in GA, one in OH, and just ain’t been to the OH one much at all the past couple years. Off to IN tomorrow and FL the second week coming.
Hal: 12:58:
Are you talking about Jasper’s quote about the Shakesville.com story? or Jill’s story?
Posted by: Janet at May 3, 2008 1:05 AM
The Shakesville story.
Hal,
I don’t know what you are getting at. Help, please.
Just curious but are these medical records the same sort as Hodari tosses in the trash and can be found blowing out of the dumpster and down the street on a windy day?
Laura,
I just knew you would try to be the poop in the punch on this thread. Nice try. Boo Hoo.
There is so much more to this story that you just can’t and don’t want to admit.
The truth will prevail.
Uh, excuse me?
Kline is a slob.
He is moments away from being hit with a contmpt citation, and was outed by no less than Bill O’Reilly for leaking documents.
It’s not enough that he was voted out of office. It looks like he could lose his present position and his law license:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080503/ap_on_re_us/abortion_records_1
carla (RE: Tomb/Holocaust Museum)
your son is very lucky. I did those two things as well on a trip to D.C. with some of my eigth grade class, and neither is something I will ever forget. The holocaust museum was moving, disturbing, depressing, yet hopeful, and so much more all in one. Laying a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier was also quite the experience, as was just being in Arlington National Cemetary.
Be careful in the museum though, not only is it that way by virtue of the topic, but you get crazies/insensitive people in there sometimes. There was one memorable and truly disgusting comment made while my class was there and saw all the hair that had been shaved off. Just goes to show just how far some people will go…
Posted by: Hieronymous: “Third, all the parties (including PP) had agreed that the cases did not need to remain sealed. PP was not fighting having the case unsealed, and was in agreement with unsealing it.”
What a strange assertion! IF PP has now reversed their stand on keeping their lawsuit a secret, why did they not ask the court to unseal it themselves?
And why did they want to keep it secret to begin with?
Doug: “Yet one really cannot with the unborn, until suffering is possible, until there is awareness.”
“One”? Do you mean yourself, Doug? Surely you realize that you can’t speak for any “one” else, don’t you?
Because honestly, Doug, I think that any “one” who cannot empathize with unborn babies being slaughtered simply has no heart with which to feel the suffering of others. You may indeed be of that nature, but I certainly am not, and I personally know of dozens of others who are not.
Doyle, 5:26, thank you.
“Just goes to show just how far some people will go…”
You’re right, Dan, which is why abortion falls into that category. For me, anyways.
Doug: “Yet one really cannot with the unborn, until suffering is possible, until there is awareness.”
“One”? Do you mean yourself, Doug? Surely you realize that you can’t speak for any “one” else, don’t you?
No, Doyle, it’s for everyone, based on the meaning of “empathy,” i.e. that there has to be feelings on the part of the entity that one would have empathy with. This isn’t dependent on the abortion debate or one’s position on it, just on the meaning of the word itself.
…..
Because honestly, Doug, I think that any “one” who cannot empathize with unborn babies being slaughtered simply has no heart with which to feel the suffering of others. You may indeed be of that nature, but I certainly am not, and I personally know of dozens of others who are not.
Oh Please. As I said previously, anybody can feel any way, but if there is no awareness, etc., then it’s a matter of personification, the emotion being in the mind of the observer.
Doug, I would also feel empathy for a child who was under anesthesia and was killed. Or who was killed in his or her sleep.
Does that make it a my feelings merely a matter of personification, the emotion being only in my mind?
Is it any less of a tragedy simply because the child wasn’t aware of his murder? Never mind. Don’t answer. I already know you think it is only a tragedy for those who lost the child, and not because the child him/herself lost her life as the result of an evil person’s actions.
You don’t believe that the tragedy lies in the fact that the child no longer will be able to live out his or her life as he/she could have had the murderer not killed the child.
You believe the only tragedy is the pain that the surviving family has to endure from the loss of the child.
That this is your position grieves me.
Bethany,
I think what Doug is saying is that the definition of empathy is feeling the same thing that another person is feeling. If the other person is incapable of feeling then you would only be empathetic if you too, felt nothing.
What you are feeling is sympathy. Moral outrage. Disgust. Horror. But technically, he’s right, you can’t feel empathy, by definition.
But he knew what you meant. As did I. Just more circular games.
Doug, I would also feel empathy for a child who was under anesthesia and was killed. Or who was killed in his or her sleep. Does that make it a my feelings merely a matter of personification, the emotion being only in my mind?
No, B, a sleeping person is just that, and there are types of awareness present in sleep, often, i.e. dreaming, etc. Moreover, there’s nothing for the sleeping person like being inside the body of a person. If there was, there might be significant disagreement with you that it’s wrong, but there really isn’t, because it’s so different from abortion.
……
Is it any less of a tragedy simply because the child wasn’t aware of his murder? Never mind. Don’t answer. I already know you think it is only a tragedy for those who lost the child, and not because the child him/herself lost her life as the result of an evil person’s actions.
“Tragedy” and “evil” are in the eye of the beholder. Too late for me not to answer. Miscarriage does the same thing as abortion, and while I realize it can be enormously sad for people who wanted to have a child, I don’t know whether the fact of miscarriages is really a “tragedy” or not. The world is as it is. Is the world a “tragedy”? Some people seem to think so, and of course there will be all degrees of such feeling. Just asking.
……
You don’t believe that the tragedy lies in the fact that the child no longer will be able to live out his or her life as he/she could have had the murderer not killed the child.
If it’s really a case of murder, then I do think it’s tragic, as with Jessica Lunsford, killed in Florida.
……
You believe the only tragedy is the pain that the surviving family has to endure from the loss of the child. That this is your position grieves me.
I think you oversimplify my position, but I do understand that I and others grieve you. We go through life knowing that not all pregnancies are continued, that people get cancer, other diseases, etc. One could say that life is filled with tragedies, or one could say that that’s just the way life is. So, is there a “good reason” for a person to get cancer? Hardly, though anybody can say anything. Abortion is different because it’s not just us thinking about “cancer or not,” it’s our wishes either with or versus the wishes of a pregnant woman.
MK, no games, and nothing circular – just the meaning of the words. With “sympathy,” it’s really the same deal – it’s sharing feelings, identifying with feelings, etc., and that’s not possible with entities which are not aware.
I don’t deny that you feel as you do, but there is still a lot of projection that goes on, and personification.
No, B, a sleeping person is just that, and there are types of awareness present in sleep, often, i.e. dreaming, etc. Moreover, there’s nothing for the sleeping person like being inside the body of a person. If there was, there might be significant disagreement with you that it’s wrong, but there really isn’t, because it’s so different from abortion.
I don’t really think it is, to you, Doug.
Once you admitted to me, that if a woman became pregnant, without anyone else’s knowledge except her own, delivered the child by herself, and no one knew about it, that as long as she gave the child anesthesia, she could kill the child and she would have done no wrong.
This example included a person who was “out of the womb”, and yet you agreed that it would be morally justified for the woman to kill the child, as long as there was no “suffering”, for any involved. As long as the woman “desired” to kill the child, and the child “didn’t feel any pain”, and “no one else knew about the child’s passing”, it would be morally justified for the woman to kill her child who had been born, in your eyes.
“Tragedy” and “evil” are in the eye of the beholder. Too late for me not to answer. Miscarriage does the same thing as abortion, and while I realize it can be enormously sad for people who wanted to have a child, I don’t know whether the fact of miscarriages is really a “tragedy” or not. The world is as it is. Is the world a “tragedy”? Some people seem to think so, and of course there will be all degrees of such feeling. Just asking.
Is “suffering” tragedy, Doug? Why do you fight for abortion to remain legal, if you are not concerned with what you feel is a “tragedy”, where a woman is not allowed the right to “choose” to kill her unborn child? If abortion became illegal again, would you fight it? After all, the world would simply be as it is. Is the world a “tragedy”? Some people seem to think so, and of course there will be all degrees of such feeling. Just asking.
If it’s really a case of murder, then I do think it’s tragic, as with Jessica Lunsford, killed in Florida.
Why is suffering tragic, Doug?
The world is as it is and there has always been suffering.
Why do you work towards eliminating suffering, Doug?
Sympathy:
b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration.
Distress:
the state of being in peril, to any degree, of a person or property, or both.
Empathy:
Understanding, being aware of, and being sensitive to the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another without actually sharing the feelings or emotions of another.
www1.umn.edu/ohr/trainingservices/sip/definitions.html
The imaginative projection into another’s feelings, a state of total identification with another’s situation, condition, and thoughts. …
theliterarylink.com/definitions.html
putting yourself in someone else
Bethany: Once you admitted to me, that if a woman became pregnant, without anyone else’s knowledge except her own, delivered the child by herself, and no one knew about it, that as long as she gave the child anesthesia, she could kill the child and she would have done no wrong.
This example included a person who was “out of the womb”, and yet you agreed that it would be morally justified for the woman to kill the child, as long as there was no “suffering”, for any involved. As long as the woman “desired” to kill the child, and the child “didn’t feel any pain”, and “no one else knew about the child’s passing”, it would be morally justified for the woman to kill her child who had been born, in your eyes.
That really does not make sense, and I don’t think that is what I said, not at all.
……
“Tragedy” and “evil” are in the eye of the beholder. Too late for me not to answer. Miscarriage does the same thing as abortion, and while I realize it can be enormously sad for people who wanted to have a child, I don’t know whether the fact of miscarriages is really a “tragedy” or not. The world is as it is. Is the world a “tragedy”? Some people seem to think so, and of course there will be all degrees of such feeling. Just asking.”
Is “suffering” tragedy, Doug? Why do you fight for abortion to remain legal, if you are not concerned with what you feel is a “tragedy”, where a woman is not allowed the right to “choose” to kill her unborn child? If abortion became illegal again, would you fight it? After all, the world would simply be as it is. Is the world a “tragedy”? Some people seem to think so, and of course there will be all degrees of such feeling. Just asking.
So you’re answering a question with a questioin. Yes, I’m against suffering.
……
“If it’s really a case of murder, then I do think it’s tragic, as with Jessica Lunsford, killed in Florida.”
Why is suffering tragic, Doug?
Because it’s the feelings of another, where we can empathize with it.
……
The world is as it is and there has always been suffering. Why do you work towards eliminating suffering, Doug?
Because I don’t like it.
Sympathy: b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration.
Right – there’d have to be a perception of “distress” on the part of the individual.
….
Empathy: Understanding, being aware of, and being sensitive to the feelings, thoughts, and experience of another without actually sharing the feelings or emotions of another.
Yep – feelings would have to be there in the first place.
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The imaginative projection into another’s feelings, a state of total identification with another’s situation, condition, and thoughts. … putting yourself in someone else
KS Attorney General blinks
The investigation into illegal activity by a Planned Parenthood clinic in KS may be on the verge of breaking open. The other side is starting to blink. The first one came earlier this month when the KS Supreme Court unsealed…