China’s one-child policy quaked
From the International Herald Tribune, today:
China: In response to inquiries from grieving relatives, local officials announced Monday that parents whose only child was killed or grievously injured in the May 12 earthquake would be exempt from the country’s one-child policy.
The exception… said qualified parents could apply for legal permission to have another child….
Thousands of parents have openly challenged the government over why so many schools collapsed during the earthquake. An estimated 10,000 students are believed to have died….
The anguish of parents and grandparents has been compounded by the one-child policy, which was introduced in 1979 to control population growth…. In some places… families are permitted to have more than one child if the first is a girl.
According to the policy, local governments can levy steep fines on couples who have more than one child; the children of those who defy the rules are sometimes denied government benefits, including access to a free education.
The committee announced Monday that if a couple’s legally born child was killed in the earthquake, an illegal child under 18 years could be registered as a legal replacement. If the dead child was illegal, it said the family would no longer be responsible for outstanding fines, although parents would not be reimbursed for penalties already paid.
The changes, however, may come as little solace to parents who have only a photo, a backpack or the ashes of their dead son or daughter…. [S]ome mothers may be too old to conceive; others may have undergone sterilization. “To lose a child is to lose everything for Chinese parents,” said Professor [Zhongxin] Sun, who is a visiting scholar at Yale University Law School. “A child is their only hope.”
This is tragic on so many levels. My heart breaks for these oppressed people, as the rest of the world stands by because the atrocity being committed against them is abortion.
Now today comes news actress Sharon Stone thinks the earthquake was due to “karma” for the Chinese oppression of Tibetans and the Dalai Lama. No mention of the government’s slaughter of innocent children. That’s politically incorrect, nor would it fit the concept of “karma” in this case.
[HT: readers JLM and Laura Loo]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The changes, however, may come as little solace to parents who have only a photo, a backpack or the ashes of their dead son or daughter…. [S]ome mothers may be too old to conceive; others may have undergone sterilization. “To lose a child is to lose everything for Chinese parents,” said Professor [Zhongxin] Sun, who is a visiting scholar at Yale University Law School. “A child is their only hope.”
This story is truly heartbreaking. Who will take care of the elderly who have become childless because of this disaster? Perhaps the younger families will start over and adopt baby girls from their own orphanages. May God bless the Chinese people and all who suffer from natural disasters around the world.
Here are more photos of the painful aftermath of China’s quake:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24792356/displaymode/1107/s/2/
She doesn’t think anyone should be unkind to anyone else?…How about abortion? Sharon came off as a nit-wit.
Is that Karma when you do bad things to people, and then bad things happen to you? ..YES!
hmmmm…makes you think how they came up with the one-child policy in the first place…
The Chinese gov’t should have realized tampering with the natural order of things would not pan out in the long run…and considering the Chinese culture places great emphasis on nature and harmony in the “universe”…
I wonder how China would even handle the Olympics with all this rescue/ recovery effort going on?
Sharon a la Jane Fonda years ago! History repeats itself with another stupid female liberal showing her “charitable” side.
Wonder when Sharon’s turn will come and bad karma will finally get her?
Patricia, right you are.
Wonder when Sharon’s turn will come and bad karma will finally get her?
It already did. It’s called Basic Instinct 2!
” another stupid female liberal ”
How is what she said any different from what Pat Robertson has said about nearly every natural disaster in the last 20 years?
What does that make him, just “another stupid male conservative”?
How about we call people out for their foolish words and actions as individuals, rather than lumping them in categories and acting like everyone in those categories would do/say the same?
JLM, LMAO!
Remember what Pat Robertson said about hurricanes? He can now take advice from Sharon Stone… call it ‘karma’ and they all pretend to know what you’re talking about.
I’m done listening to Hollyweirdos anyway. Most of them haven’t even graduated from high school. All of a sudden they become experts on everything. No thanks.
CNN just ran a story about parents fighting to block the cleanup of a school because they want an investigation into what they claim was shoddy construction of the school.
I don’t follow Pat Robertson. What did he say?
Heather,
Pat Robertson has claimed that every natural disaster (Katrina, the Tsunami, etc) was punishment from God for sins people in those regions committed.
Now, if he was a true Christian, he would believe that ALL of us sin, and therefore it would be absurd to think one particular geographical area was more deserving of God’s “wrath” as he so kindly put it… but he keeps making statements like that in the wake of every natural disaster.
How ANYONE, from Pat Robertson to Sharon Stone can look at a disaster which killed hundreds of thousands of KIDS and say that it was Karma/God/who ever “punishing” them just makes me cringe.
What I don’t understand, is that China has a one-child policy for “population control”. China’s population has been “controlled” by a natural disaster, but now they are “allowing” people to re-populate the already “controlled” population. Huh???
This is such a sad situation, and my heart truly breaks for these people. What a confusing message their government sends to them.
Who said I support or agree with anything Pat Robertson has said?
I haven’t ruled out agreeing with Pat Robertson yet.
How can we disprove this?
Now, if he was a true Christian, he would believe that ALL of us sin, and therefore it would be absurd to think one particular geographical area was more deserving of God’s “wrath” as he so kindly put it… but he keeps making statements like that in the wake of every natural disaster.
Yes, Amanda…he does. And yes, all of us sin. However, if you look at the countries that were hit with these devastating natural disasters, you will notice that most of them practiced idolatry…something that is detestable to God. I remember seeing the news coverage of Myanmar (sp?. Every time they showed the area hit, I’d see the giant idol sitting in the middle of their devastated area. Don’t forget…the children were spared God’s wrath. They were under the age of “reasoning”, and therefore brought into His loving arms immediately upon their earthly deaths. Unfortunately, the adults were not as “lucky”.
If anything, these disasters should make one think of how fragile life is, and how we are not guarnteed one more day on earth. Time to make the decision to accept Christ or not is actually very short. It’s kindof like “now or never” when you see disasters of this nature.
“And then they will know that I am Lord” comes to my mind every time I see devastating natural occurences.
I accept the fact that we live in a society where some people don’t fear any negative consequences to a negative action. I just don’t happen to be one of those people. Someone stole money out of my purse the other day while I was at work. I would never steal money from anyone.
These natural disasters do put the fear of God in me. They remind me who’s in charge of MY existance. It sure ain’t me! I don’t have any control over the way I will die.
Also, I’ll throw it out there. Dare call me a gay basher. I have friends who are gay, but it is an abomination to be a homosexual.
“Who said I support or agree with anything Pat Robertson has said?”
-Patricia
I didn’t. I’m simply pointing out that Sharon Stone’s statement is not isolated to “liberals”. Pat Robertson I’d say is pretty darn conservative, and saying the exact same thing. He also supports abortion in China. So he and Sharon Stone are probably on the same page about the earthquake. *shakes head*
“What I don’t understand, is that China has a one-child policy for “population control”. China’s population has been “controlled” by a natural disaster, but now they are “allowing” people to re-populate the already “controlled” population. Huh???”
– JLM
Its called the “oh crap, the whole world is paying attention now, what can we do to make this look good?” policy. (Especially while they’re trying to work on a more positive media image before the Olympics). Eerily similar to the fact that it took worldwide media attention after Steve Biko’s murder to get the South African government to change their behaviors. Peter Gabriel wrote a song about it actually… a beautiful one. “and the eyes of the world are watching now… you can blow out one candle, but you can’t blow out a fire…once the flames begin to catch, the wind will blow it higher”
JLM, I agree!!
Amanda,
2:16 post…
That makes sense. Hypocritical, but makes sense of why they would do that.
Heather,
I’m sorry someone stole your money. That stinks!
These natural disasters do put the fear of God in me. They remind me who’s in charge of MY existance. It sure ain’t me! I don’t have any control over the way I will die.
Amen to that!
So Sharon Stone cries because The Tibetan Foundation… a foundation… wants to help Chinese victims of natural disaster? What’s her deal? She makes it sound like the Chinese and the Tibetans are at war pillaging and burning each others’ villages.
Sharon Stone has an heiress. It’s Ms. South Carolina.
JLM, thank you, but not to worry. Karma comes back 10 fold. I wouldn’t want to be that person right now. Not b/c of what I will do, but b/c of Karma.
Any government is not more powerful than God.
In some places… families are permitted to have more than one child if the first is a girl.
——————————————————– Why is this the case?
Heather,
Coz Chinese gov’t values the male child more than the female…
“”And then they will know that I am Lord” comes to my mind every time I see devastating natural occurences ”
————————————–
Hmmm… California comes to mind right now…
In some places… families are permitted to have more than one child if the first is a girl.
——————————————————– Why is this the case?
Posted by: heather at May 27, 2008 3:01 PM
Because there have been riots and demonstrations in rural areas of the one-child policy.
“”And then they will know that I am Lord” comes to my mind every time I see devastating natural occurences ”
————————————–
Hmmm… California comes to mind right now…
Posted by: RSD at May 27, 2008 3:09 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…And yet, all of the really deadly natural disasters seem to happen in the Bible Belt.
“JLM, thank you, but not to worry. Karma comes back 10 fold. I wouldn’t want to be that person right now. Not b/c of what I will do, but b/c of Karma.”
-Heather
So wait Heather… if you believe in Karma, and you believe China commits human rights violations, then you AGREE with Sharon Stone’s statement?
“”And then they will know that I am Lord” comes to my mind every time I see devastating natural occurences ”
————————————–
Hmmm… California comes to mind right now…”
-RSD
Why would you say that, RSD?
Off topic, but…not quite.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/27/tranracial.adoption.ap/index.html
While the implementation of China’s one child policy may seem harsh and overbearing, I think it is borne of a legitimate fear of a Malthusian trap, one that the entire planet will eventually have to face, barring a mass die-off due to a pandemic or some kind of natural or man made disaster. I can only hope that there is a humane way to control the population that everyone can agree upon, rather than having one thrust upon us by circumstances beyond our control.
Regarding the Jane Fonda quote about the earthquake being karma for Tibet, I am disappointed in Jane. Her comment is the equivalent of Pastor John Hagee’s statement that “Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.”…”New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God,”…”there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came.” Both statements are contemptible.
It is not up to us to control the population.
Ray: 4:19: I can only hope that there is a humane way to control the population that everyone can agree upon, rather than having one thrust upon us by circumstances beyond our control.
Well, we already have had abortion thrust upon us beyond our control by a select few Supreme Court Justices. Have you forgotten that? They didn’t seem to care much that we all didn’t agree. Maybe you could direct your statements to them?
Hi Amanda,
Interesting article. So my white friends who have adopted African American babies will take classes, huh? :)
I always wonder why more African Americans do not adopt white children. Thoughts?
It is not up to us to control the population.
If not us, then who IS it up to, Carla? If your answer is “God,” then be prepared for a whole lot of human misery on this planet as we outstrip our resources’ ability to support us.
we already have had abortion thrust upon us beyond our control
Who, exactly, is forcing you to have an abortion, Janet? Certainly not the Supreme Court.
Carla said: 4:35: It is not up to us to control the population.
Amen!
Ray, what’s with this “Chicken Little attitude” about the world population that is so prevalent today? ( “The sky is falling, the sky is falling!” )
I agree with this quote from the story: “To lose a child is to lose everything for Chinese parents,” said Professor [Zhongxin] Sun, who is a visiting scholar at Yale University Law School. “A child is their only hope.”
Children are our hope, not the source of our destruction.
Who, exactly, is forcing you to have an abortion, Janet? Certainly not the Supreme Court.
The S.C. put their John Hancock on abortion, “their stamp of approval”, so to speak back in 1973, fooling some of us into thinking it was a good thing. No one is forcing me, thank God. Our U.S. policy hasn’t come to the equal the Chinese policy, yet. (There are many in this country who wouldn’t object, I’m sure.)
While the implementation of China’s one child policy may seem harsh and overbearing, I think it is borne of a legitimate fear of a Malthusian trap, one that the entire planet will eventually have to face, barring a mass die-off due to a pandemic or some kind of natural or man made disaster.
This is absolute nonsense! The population bomb that was supposed to happen has not happened. While the earth’s population has increased, most Western nations are experiencing a population decline unseen since the medieaval times. In fact, it may take Europe centuries to recover from the birth dearth since European women are apparently uninterested in having babies.
At the same time, our production of food has increased dramatically. I read somewhere that in North America we produce enough food that each and every person could consume 7,000 calories per day!
The problem lies not with too many people and too little resources. It lies with a small percentage of the world consuming a large amount of the resources, inequitable distribution and plain old greed.
People who have children do so, because they have hope – hope for the future and that they will be able to continue on. Apparently, what most of the western world lacks is this virtue.
The S.C. put their John Hancock on abortion, “their stamp of approval”, so to speak back in 1973, fooling some of us into thinking it was a good thing.
I don’t see where guaranteeing a right to a medical procedure, should somebody decide they want it, has anything to do with “thrust(ing it) upon us beyond our control” or “fooling some of us into thinking it was a good thing.” Your use of the English language in the former case is either inaccurate, or dishonest, Janet, and the latter statement doesn’t reflect a very high opinion of the intellect and judgment of you and your peers (or whomever we are to fathom “us” is).
Ray, what’s with this “Chicken Little attitude” about the world population that is so prevalent today?
There is nothing “Chicken Little” about it, Janet. There are finite resources on this planet. Somewhere there is a line where unchecked human population growth pushes those resources past a breaking point, and the result won’t be pretty. I prefer to have my eyes open to this situation rather than my head in the sand.
There are women and their mates who would have thought twice before having abortions if it had remained illegal. It shouldn’t be too hard to fathom who “us” refers to – U.S. citizens. Many were lied to about the procedure and told the fetus was a blog of tissue, not a baby, etc….Women are threatened if they don’t abort – they don’t have much control in that kind of situation. None of this is news to you so I don’t know why you would accuse me of being dishonest in my opinion. Oh, I could try to use another language, but I still don’t think you’d agree.
Ray, I beg to differ that there are finite resources on this planet. I’m not a specialist on the earth’s resources, but it would be great to hear from someone with expertise in that area.
Janet, OF COURSE the earth’s resources are finite. What do you think, they’re infinite?
This is an interesting viewpoint, but this author redefines “finite” – http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5392
Amanda,
So should I take classes in order to raise my half-black daughter?
The people WILLING to adopt children outside of their own race obviously don’t have a problem with racial diversity. There are also plenty of books on taking care of African-American children that people can read/buy that would help them prepare themselves. But requiring classes based on race alone is pretty presumptuous and discriminatory if you ask me. They’re assuming people who are white couldn’t know how to raise black children which is ludicrous!
Would they require black parents who adopt white children to do the same??
Also, let’s not forget about “black genicide.” The black race is often targeted for abortion. Odd, I know plenty of white women who have aborted, but sadly it seems that just about every black woman you talk to nowadays has had an abortion[s]…if they only knew. One of my new co-workers had her 6 month old’s[yes, 6 months pregnant] brains bashed in and sucked out. She already has a 4 year old and she is currently pregnant again.
The lady truely sounds like an airhead. Presumably she wants to say that the Chinese government has oppressed Tibet, but she can think of no stronger word than to say it’s “not nice”.
….and, she is African American and 29 years old.
“Odd, I know plenty of white women who have aborted, but sadly it seems that just about every black woman you talk to nowadays has had an abortion[s]…if they only knew”
If they “only knew” what? I think they knew they were having abortions, what else do you think they should know?
TS, I agree. I don’t think she even knew what she was talking about. She had to ask what Karma was????????????????????????
Hal, if they only knew what really happened. If they only knew how they sounded talking about it. Like a walk in the park. Kind of like you, Hal.
So should I take classes in order to raise my half-black daughter?
Hal, I don’t agree with stabbing a baby in the back of the skull and sucking his/her brains out to finish it off.
Hal, not everyone agrees with abortion like you do. I have recently talked to a few women who quipped, “My gyno really gave me a strong lecture about my past abortion[s]. My thought….good!
Some earth resources may be finite or appear to be so, but many many others are Not, hence the term “renewable”.
Certainly the earth was designed or “evolved” to support a significant population – which we are no where near to reaching seeing as there are vast areas of the planet not currently inhabited but which are able to support a population.
Someone needs to tell them that they need to be more responsible about sex, and they need to quit running to the abortion clinic to fix their mistakes.
Also, in a book I have been reading it says, “Take an immoral act and make it legal, and the # of people who participate in that activity will increase.” Make rape LEGAL and see what happens.
Hal, not everyone agrees with abortion like you do. I have recently talked to a few women who quipped, “My gyno really gave me a strong lecture about my past abortion[s]. My thought….good!
Posted by: heather at May 27, 2008 7:23 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does everyone you know talk about their crotch ALL DAY LONG?
Speaking of “crotch goop” Since when does it cost a woman 750 dollars to drain it? Most women’s vaginal discharge drains naturally. Do women talk about their abortions? Yes. They do. Will you ever stop TRYING to be funny? I hope so, cuz you aren’t the next Ellen.
Laura, why are you still here? Why do you want to be here?
How is abortion talking about your crotch? Abortion is talking about your dead baby.
Laura, Why do YOU come here every day to discuss “crotch goop?”
Laura, you just make yourself look like such a fool. However, you hide behind a screen. You have nothing better to do with your time. Admit it. LOL!
Okay..off to have a slice of chocolate cake and get to bed.
Haha, JLM..sounds good! That half should cover everything I need to know!
:)
In some places… families are permitted to have more than one child if the first is a girl.
——————————————————– Why is this the case?
Well heather. I know many people on this blog that feel females are second class citizens incapable of being as strong or smart as a man. The feminist here know that a woman could take care of her elderly parents just as well as a man could, however there are many antifeminist who think women aren’t up to the task of being responsible, reliable adults.
Also, you know that Christian singer whose daughter was run over by her brother? Is that karma for trying to force their beliefs on others? OOoh… maybe they had an abortion a long time ago and this is God punishing them?
“Certainly the earth was designed or “evolved” to support a significant population – which we are no where near to reaching seeing as there are vast areas of the planet not currently inhabited but which are able to support a population.”
I for one think this world would stink without state parks. When was the last time anyone here visited their state park? There’s enough fun there for the whole family, and it’s free! But remember, don’t leave with anything you didn’t come in with, and take home everything you brought with you!
Haha, JLM..sounds good! That half should cover everything I need to know
lol! I think you’ll do just fine without any classes, or 1/2 classes for that matter! I wonder if certain parents could get “waivers”???
@@
I find that the happiest most well adjusted people are those who take advantage of their local public outdoors facilities.
Is God punishing me for my abortion Jess? In light of the tragedy in the Chapman family, that was a horrible thing to say.
“I know many people on this blog that feel females are second class citizens incapable of being as strong or smart as a man.”
Like who Jess?
Carla,
It’s no more horrible than saying all the Chinese asked for their children to die. Which you all seem quite comfortable doing. “Karma” right? You’re crazy. Karma isn’t even a Christian belief. It’s a Buddhist, Hindu, Jain, (in other words pagan) belief and I’m shocked to hear you all use it like God ordained it somewhere in the Bible.
Yep, yep, God still strikes down people for being evil. Not that your beliefs also dictates that Jesus saved everyone so that God didn’t have to strike down sinners, but WHATEVER… if that impedes your ability to judge others, it obviously must be untrue…
Read the book “The Good Earth”. It gives an idea of how women are treated in Chinese society. I hated having to read it in a literature class I took in high school.
Edyt, you’re right, in general God does not “do’ this bad stuff, however, He allows it and for a good end (although I know that miight be hard to see). The Bible says that all the earth anguishes for the sons of God to be revealed. If God let this happen in China what’s next for the good ol’ USA?
I don’t adhere to Karma which says that what goes around comes around and I don’t think that there’s any way around it. The Bible teaches that we reap what we sow, however, since Christ paid the price we don’t pay for our sins if we accept Him.
Do any of you think that the US has a price to pay for allowing 50,000,000 abortions here and 1,000,000,000 indirectly worldwide?
Do most of you know know how vulnerable places like Washington, Oregon and California are to psunamis and earthquakes and Tennesee and New York are to earthquakes, and the enite Atlantic Seaboard and Gulf Coast to hurricanes? What about drought?
I think God has given us pretty much a free ride compared to what’s happened in Indonesia, Burma and now China. Do any of you think He may act soon? Do you think that there’s any coincidence that those countries are either Muslim or Atheistic?
Edyt, I know you don’t believe in God, so do you think anything like this might happen here?
Carla:
You are white as snow.
God has no desire to punish if we are willing to repent and ask for forgiveness. God puts away our sins as far as east from west and he casts them into the sea of forgetfulness.
The problem comes in when we are stubborn and don’t admit our wrongs, don’t confess, and don’t ask for His forgivenss. He does not want to condemn us.
If we simply ignore God then He has no choice but to let us have our way and abandons us to ourselves. It must hurt him infinitely to let us go.
Some earth resources may be finite or appear to be so, but many many others are Not, hence the term “renewable”.
Even “renewable” resources can take some time to grow back, so if you overharvest those resources you can actually lead to the extinction of those plants.
According to a 1998 study, nearly 1 in 8 plants is in danger of extinction, and that goes up to 1 in 3 in the U.S. That extinction is caused partly by farming (eradicating natural plants in a certain area to grow certain crops) and partly by the desire of those plants (such as logging), as well as the destruction of the plants for housing purposes.
Furthermore, when we cause wild animals to go extinct, we are further damaging and changing the ecosystem. When you cause animals to go extinct, other populations go haywire (deer, for instance) and that can lead to more plant extinction.
Yeah, plants are renewable. But not when you eradicate them.
HisMan,
:)
Except Edyt that for every plant that disappears, there are others that take its place. We discover new species every year.
We should be good stewards of the earth but not at the expense of killing humans.
Edyt:
I don’t believe the problem is supply.
I believe the problem is one of management.
In God’s ideal world, He would rule. There would be no death, no disease, no pain, no greed, no hate, no lack, no poverty and only love.
When sin entered the world satan became it’s ruler. Jesus came to destroy the workd of satan who is a liar, a theif and a murderer. The evidence of his rule is everywhere. Jesus came to give life more abundantly.
Sometimes I think the world that Liberals want and Conservatives want is the same world, however, there is so much confusion that satan gets us to fighting each other, you know, divide and conquer.
Do you agree?
HisMan,
Natural disasters can happen anywhere. It simply depends on where you live. If you live on the coast, you’re likely to experience hurricanes. If you live over certain parts of the earth, plate tectonics will affect the number of earthquakes you have. If you live near heavily forested areas where a lot of natural debris piles up, every so often you’ll have raging wildfires because that’s nature’s way of “taking out the garbage.” Not surprisingly, a vast number of plants thrive in areas where frequent wildfires take place. They actually need it to survive.
So no, I don’t think any of this is an “act of God” or any other higher power, or that anything “unusual” will happen here. When you choose to live in a certain area, you choose to take on whatever disasters are natural to that area, whether it be tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, or thunderstorms. The people in New Orleans knew flooding and hurricanes were natural to that area, just like the people in China knew earthquakes happened. But, like most humans, they believed in the old “it won’t happen to me” clause.
Yes, it will. And the number of people that died only speaks to the number of people that were in that area at that one time. Earthquakes happen all the time to people in desolate areas, and no one sees it as a disaster because thousands of people aren’t trapped in buildings as it happens.
I’m really surprised to see so many people on this blog who wave their Christianity around like a flag professing a belief in karma, which is mostly a Hindu or Buddhist philosophy. Especially in a thread where it was insinuated by a poster that a natural disaster was punishment on Myanmar for idolatry! Talk about irony!
Personally, I think Sharon Stone’s comments were ridiculous, but no more so than Pat Robertson’s inane ramblings.
What kind of god would cause the death, destruction, and suffering of millions of people, including innocent children, as some sort of punishment/reap what you sow type lesson? Certainly not any god I’d put my faith in!
Bee
Except Edyt that for every plant that disappears, there are others that take its place. We discover new species every year.
We should be good stewards of the earth but not at the expense of killing humans.
You mean they evolve? Why yes, new plants do evolve and take the place of some that go extinct… we also do discover new species but that is not to imply they didn’t exist before we noticed them. However, generally when a farmer decides to plant a crop, he’ll destroy every plant on the land and then start over with what he wants. Not really courteous, or stewardly.
Would logging less forests be at the expense of less humans? Would growing fewer crops? If we’re truly producing more than we need, why don’t we cut back on what we produce?
It’s not very complicated to understand overpopulation.
As the population grows, it consumes more resources. When more resources are consumed and the population is healthy and well, it will expand exponentially, thus needing to consume even more resources. With animal populations, they tend to steady over time – usually a famine or disease will wipe out the overpopulated animals, and the ones who populate quickly often are eaten by more predatory creatures who don’t populate quickly.
Humans evade this natural process by finding new ways to feed its growing population. Logically, we will eventually hit the point where there will not be enough resources on the planet to feed every single one of us. I don’t know if that point is in the near future or not, but we’re at 6.7 billion and growing. When do you suppose we should start thinking about it?
Saw this posted at my children’s school:
“A baby is God’s opinion that life must go on.”
Sometimes I think the world that Liberals want and Conservatives want is the same world, however, there is so much confusion that satan gets us to fighting each other, you know, divide and conquer.
Do you agree?
Umm… yes and no. One, I don’t believe in Satan. I think liberals and conservatives are fighting … not necessarily for control of the world, but certainly control in this country. It’s a typical power struggle, and I’m not surprised. Historically, there is a conservative and a liberal group, and the liberal group (over time) usually wins popular majority and then becomes the conservative group who fights new ideas. Some people don’t like change, others do. That’s really the power struggle I see in the U.S., but I don’t quite consider it a struggle for land.
People are always going to be divided. Oh well. Embrace diversity! (Ooops, liberal idea.)
Go Bee! :)
Edyt,
During the entire decade of the 1970s, the USGS recorded a total of 44 earthquakes it classified as “significant.” The following decade, from January 1980 to December 1989, the USGS recorded 47 significant earthquakes. That is for the entire decade. From 1990 through the end of 1999, the USGS records 57 significant earthquakes. From 2000 thru to Monday’s earthquake in Sichuan, China, the USGS recorded an astonishing 109 earthquakes of at least magnitude 7.0 and 13 earthquakes measuring between 8.0 and 9.9 on the Richter Scale.
On the other side of the world, the long-dormant Chaitan volcano erupted May 2 for the first time, say geologists, in more than 7,000 years.
The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization warned that Iran had “detected” a new highly pathogenic strain of wheat stem rust. The U.N. said the fungal disease could spread to other wheat-producing states in the Near East and western Asia that provide one-fourth of the world’s wheat supply. The new strain, called Ug99, is capable of infecting up to 90 percent of the existing strains of wheat worldwide
JLM,
It is only recently that we have begun to even record earthquakes and hurricanes and whatnot, so we have very basis for comparison as to how the world worked thousands of years ago. For all we know, we could be continuing on a very natural cycle. Maybe it seems extreme, but consider how advanced our communications technology has become. Fifty years ago, we may not have heard about the tsunami that happened around India and surrounding islands, but today that info is available with the click of a button.
So it may seem like there is more happening now, or we may just be more aware of what’s going on around the world.
P.S. Time running short is no excuse to ruin the planet when we know our actions could help preserve other species from dying out.
P.S. Time running short is no excuse to ruin the planet when we know our actions could help preserve other species from dying out.
Oh, I know! I want to do my part as well! Make sure you tell that to people who buy homes much bigger than they need. The sq. ft. for homes has risen 500 sq. ft. in the last decade for a single family home. SUV’s are “king of the road”. We live in a country where “bigger is better”, or supposed to be, at least. You know, that’s what makes people happy!?!?!?
I’ll do my part as much as I can, but for a single, wealthy couple that uses more energy than needed to heat/cool their monstrous homes, while driving their fuel-wasting SUV’s…I’ve gotta tell you…I get a bit peeved.
JLM,
Actually, earlier today I was having a conversation with the BF about celebrities. He was thinking they give to charity for the fame, but I was like, “They damn well better be giving to charity, media attention or not. You don’t make millions of dollars a year and buy a house with 40 rooms you’ll never use and 8 cars. Do something for the rest of the world, that’s the least you can do.”
On the other hand, have you heard of tiny houses? They’re usually about 100 to 500 sq feet, complete with utilities. Sorta forces you to cut down on all the junk.
JLM:
Excellent post!
Remember, let’s all be ready. Any of us can be called home via death or the rapture at any time.
Let’s not wait around for signs to get our house is order.
Jesus said, “No man knows the time”, referring to His return. But he did ask the question, “will I find any faith on earth”? Also, He wants no one to perish.
Edyt:
But don’t scientists know alot about earth history? How do they know that it wasn’t until 7,000 years ago that a certain volcano erupted? Let’s not ignore science when it doesn’t fit our world model (and I’m not trying to insult you).
You’ve got to admit, with the advent of nuclear weapons and religious zealots willing to use them and who think they’re going straight to Allah without consequence, that’s pretty dangerous. And how long can the world exist with this hanging over their heads, 50, 60, 100 years?
I’ve got to say, with all the anxiety and trouble facing us, the world is looking for a savior. And it will find one in the form of the Anti-Christ.
I’ve got to agree with JLM’s analysis, the signs are everywhere if we just stop, look, listen and think.
We Christians care, therefore we speak.
Edyt,
Awwwwww…how cute!!!!
But honestly….I don’t care how much a celebrity gives to charity. They are still using so much energy to heat/cool their egos. It’s out of hand, imo…and these are the same buffoons that tell us that we need to decrease our energy consumption. HA!
anyway..that tiny house is adorable!!! Imagine how much money one would save!!! Thanks for sharing that!
HisMan,
Thank you. I’m ready either way…although I’d rather hear the trumpets!!!
What I forgot to mention in my post, is that this is the first time that ALL of the signs are happening in the SAME, EXACT timeframe…ALONG with Israel becoming a nation (1948) after 2,000 years of being displaced. The Jews are returning to their homelands, just like the bible said they would! This is the FIRST time this has happened in more than 2,000 years.!!!
How exciting is THIS?!?!?!?
HisMan,
I’m not saying we don’t know about them. Certainly we have a lot of evidence for past volcanic eruptions and floods, and several other catastrophic events, but they are not as well documented as the natural disasters that we’ve had in the past few centuries. We have every tornado and hurricane listed, whereas thousands of years ago people were not writing them down or sending the information around the globe, and the effect of a tornado may not be evident from rock formations the way a volcano or flood would be.
I’m just saying it may seem more prevalent now, with our advances in science and communications technology. That’s not to say in the past hundred of hurricanes did not occur within a span of one year. We just may not have known about it or find enough evidence to prove it.
And yes, I am terrified by the number of nuclear weapons and religious zealots. Let’s not forget that we dropped the first atom bombs though. Our religious leaders are just as dangerous as those around the world. Anyone with that deadly power should be closely watched and snuffed out if they show signs of exerting that power. Our government included.
Our religious leaders are just as dangerous as those around the world.
Example? I don’t see any suicide missions coming from our country’s religious leaders.
And yes, I am terrified by the number of nuclear weapons and religious zealots.
Which is why Obama claiming he can sit down and speak “diplomatically” to Ahmadinejad to somehow “talk him out of his ambitions” is totally ridiculous, IMO. When I heard him say that, I’ve gotta tell you…I haven’t laughed out loud that hard in a looooooong time. Sad, but truly funny!!!
Our religious leaders are just as dangerous as those around the world.
Aha! Edyt is really Rosie O’Donnell! I should have known… lol
Liberals like Edyt hate America, they hate flag-wavers, they hate abortion opponents, they hate all religions except Islam (post 9/11).
Jasper, isn’t that the sad, ironic truth.
Edyt:
I see your point, however, the Lord said there would be wars and rumors of wars. Perhaps the frequency hasn’t changed (and I don’t subscribe to that but will yield to your assumption), however, more and more people know more and more about the world than ever before and that instantaneously. Do you get my point?
Now remember, 2,000 years ago we didn’t have instantaneous mass communication. So, why would Jesus mention that rumors would have worldwide implications? The answer is He knew the future.
He also said that the whole world would be evangelized before the end. How could this be, except for mass communication?
As far as your comment about Harry Truman: The use of nuclear weapsons in WWII was a means to save lives by ending the war sooner. The only way Japan was going to surrender was by house to house, hand to hand combat. That would have killed hundreds of thousands more US soldiers. I’ll try not to be offended by your comment as I know of no authentic Christian leader that actually wants to use nuclear weapons except as a deterrent.
Therein lies the problem. Ahminjhad has no fear of anhilation. He’s unlike the Soviets and the Chinese who feared mass retaliation (in other words they were rational human beings). Radical Islam can only be dealth with in one way, they die first. To think otherwise is naive.
Jasper-
that was uncalled for.
As for the end times, people have been saying the end is near since before the revolution. there was one group that believed it would end in an exact year in the late 1700s and it never came. Signs are seen when people want to see them, and Christians, Muslims, and Jews alike have wanted to see them since the beginning of their respective religions. Signs are seen each and every generation, it’ll happen when it happens, don’t be so impatient or jumpy. I wouldn’t be surprised if God just thought all these predictions are ridiculous attempts to interpret His will and won’t take action until people stop predicting the end of the world. Then it will come, when the believers will simply have true faith, not fear of the end.
Janet,
Besides George Bush’s terrorism in the Middle East, we have plenty of people willing to commit acts of terror on opposing groups.
Religious terrorism groups or persons from the U.S.: Army of God, Aryan Nations, Christian Patriots, the KKK, The Lambs of Christ, Concerned Christians, Clayton Waagner, Mike Bray, Billy Wright, Pastor Clifford Peeples, Mark David Uhl, George Habash, James Kopp, Paul Jennings Hill and Eric Robert Rudolph.
Pat Robertson called for the assassination of Venezuelian President Hugo Ch
I came across a collection of World Prayers on this website, it’s pretty cool:
http://www.worldprayers.org/
This one seems appropriate given our conversation today:
prayer for the white man – native american indian
And now, Grandfather, I ask you to bless the white man.
He needs your wisdom, your guidance.
You see, for so long he has tried to destroy my people,
and only feels comfortable when given power.
Bless them, show them the peace we understand;
teach them humility.
For I fear they will someday destroy themselves and their children
as they have done so Mother Earth.
I plead, I cry, after all, they are my brothers …
@Jasper: I don’t hate America, and I’m liberal. I just hate Republicans just as you hate Democrats (though I also loathe the Democrats- but not for the reasons you do). :)
Edyt, where’s the suicide mission Janet asked for an example of?
Dan,
Yes, it will happen when it happens.
My advice to you?….watch Israel. Israel is fulfiling its prophetic destiny….for the FIRST TIME….as we speak. Continue to watch Israel.
You can also keep up-to-date with happenings between Russia and Iran. There’s this war in Ezekiel…Gog & Magog (Israel is its “would-be victim”): if you’re watching what’s going on between these two countries, you can almost watch things fall perfectly into place. Kindof like a puzzle. Most pieces are already in place, according to bible prophecy…that WERE NOT…EVER…in history.
Janet-
I don’t know if this one is there, but it is one of my personal favorites:
Oh Great Spirit, whose voice I hear in the winds, and whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me. I come before You, one of Your children, I am small and weak. I need Your strength and wisdom. Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes ever behold the red and purple sunset. Make my hands respect the things You have made, my ears sharp to hear Your voice. Make me wise, so that I may know the things You have taught my people, the lesson You have hidden in every leaf and rock. I seek strength not to be superior to my brothers, but to be able to fight my greatest enemy, myself. Make me ever ready to come to You, with clean hands and straight eyes, so when life fades as a fading sunset, my spirit may come to You without shame.
Rae, hi! ;-) I don’t think that Jasper was meaning people like you or PIP. I could be wrong of course.. I took it to mean “liberals like Edyt”- in other words, the more extreme liberals. The ones really, really, really far to the left.
JLM-
I am content to wait. If the Bible is right either way I’m likely to be cast into hell because I have yet to reconcile myself with any Christian Church. I am Christian in what is likely the most general of definitions. However I don’t see the world ending anytime soon, but again that’s just me. If it happens I’ll simply be stuck here in the middle of the war hoping I get lucky and get to fight on God’s side and not be thrown into hell.
Hi Bethany!
*waves & hugs!*
Bethany-
you may not know it, but I am pretty far to the left. Maybe I disguise it well ;)
hi Jlm, hope you’re having a good night! :)
Dan,
Very nice!
Might be, Dan. :)
P.S. there’s another free birth control/free condom “scandal” now in a nearby town (Gloucester). Seems they might be giving them out at the high school.
“that was uncalled for.”
I’m sorry Dan, but it was. She pulled a Rosie O’Donnell, lumping in U.S. Christians with Islamofacists. Now, the MSM will let this slide, but we don’t have too.
As you can see by her most recent post, she does this again, calling our President (and therfore, by her own logic), our servicemen terrorists.
Rae, I didn’t say all liberals. I said liberals who think like Edyt.
Dan,
By the way, it is on that site.. attributed to:
american indian – lakota – chief yellow lark – 1887
Dan,
You don’t have to reconcile yourself with a Christian church. You just have to admit your a sinner and accept what Jesus did for you on the cross, and believe that he rose again the third day.
You will then be baptized into the body of Christ, and be HIS church.
As far as “the end of the world”…I don’t know for sure either. But, with Israel becoming a nation, and the Jews returning for the first time (in 1948), and “this generation shall not pass”…I’m guessing (GUESSING!) that the generation that was born during that time is beginning to pass away as we speak. I believe time is running very, very short.
But don’t worry…the end of the world won’t happen until AFTER the 1,000-year reign of Jesus here on earth!
@Bethany: I’m actually pretty far left on almost every issue except the abortion issue.
Jasper-
there are christian extremists who’ve pulled the same thing. However Christianity is an older religion and did not have the same technology (and thus killed less) during their own time of conflict (Crusades, Catholic/Protestant Wars, Inquisition, etc). Islam, however, is a more recent religion that is hitting the equivalent of Christianity’s crusade years, however technology has hit the point where every atrocity costs more lives and is more “spectaculor” for lack of a better word.
As for Bush being a terrorist/war criminal, it is a stretch however he is responsible for the deaths of thousands for the legacy he wanted to leave, a legacy he utterly destroyed single handedly.
I read about that Dan in the Boston Herald. The school supervisor and school nurse resigned because they couldn’t hand out birth control and condoms to 13 yr olds. watch out for the public schools folks.
But Rae, the people who are farthest to the left truly do hate America and everything it stands for. I don’t see you as one of those people.
Janet- good to know :)
as an add on to the P.S. I had, here’s the article.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/16399843/detail.html
after pregnancies jumped from 4 to 17 in a single year nurses apparently began handing out condoms and birth control of their own accord. There is now going to be some sort of vote on the issue.
“I’m sorry Dan, but it was. She pulled a Rosie O’Donnell, lumping in U.S. Christians with Islamofacists. Now, the MSM will let this slide, but we don’t have too.”
@Jasper: *Some* US Christians are very similar to radical Muslims- but they are definitely the minority (Army of God, the Phelps’).
Islam, however, is a more recent religion
HUH????
Jasper-
they are in highschool and the number of pregnancies jumped by 13 in a single year.
Seems condoms and birth control are warranted. Should be available free of charge or at a reduced rate in any public high school at least.
JLM-
Islam is pretty recent, unless I screwed up the time lines again. Biblical times always screwed me up in school >
“But Rae, the people who are farthest to the left truly do hate America and everything it stands for. I don’t see you as one of those people. ”
@Bethany: Eh…I don’t hate America, but I definitely do hate *some* aspects of American culture.
Dan,
If it weren’t for the crusades, you may be a muslim today. The crusades started because muslims were burning christian churches down. The crusades saved europe from becoming muslim, and possibly the US today. We should be very careful about how we throw the “crusade” argument around.
I absolutely love America from the bottom of my heart.
However I think some of the people in charge and some citizens are, well, no real nice way to say it. Perhaps ridiculous would be the best way to put it.
Well, Rae, (10:57) you’re in good company. :D There are many things I would like to change about American culture too (abortion on demand, for example)….
But that’s a tad different than hating America as a whole! :)
Dan,
7th Century.
Jasper-
And I bet you I wouldn’t mind. I barely fit into the Christian category in all reality, I focus more in the spiritual realms. I’ve been through enough that I think all the dogma/laws/etc are pretty much ridiculous agenda-driven words of those in power. We were given a conscience for a reason. Use it.
Dan,
they wanted to handout birth control without the parents knowing about it.
“Seems condoms and birth control are warranted.”
why? Is pregnancy a disease?
which is worse, being pregnant or teens running around pre-martital having sex like dogs?
HisMan,
I see your point. I’m just offering an alternative viewpoint. :) I just know that we’ve been predicting the end of the world for a long time now with no real results, so I’m hesitant to align with the doomsayers, if you know what I mean.
About terrorism and nuclear weapons:
I understand why we dropped the bombs, but I do not think that action was in any way justified. Hundreds of thousands of people died, and people today continue to be effected by lingering radiation. Not a good idea by any standard. I don’t think killing civilians is good practice, even as intimidation or to pressure governments. It’s cruel and unnecessary. Those people didn’t ask to be part of a war. They didn’t ask to be soldiers. They didn’t do anything to deserve their deaths. I don’t want more of our soldiers dead, but I look at it from the perspective that they offered up their lives for the cause, whereas these civilians did not. Same thing is happening in Iraq – we are killing thousands of civilians, throwing more in jail, and for what? To intimidate?
I do agree that their radical ideology is dangerous. We’ve witnessed that first hand. But I also know a lot of Muslims, and one Palestinian friend of mine commented, “This is born out of desperation. They have nothing, so they have nothing to lose.”
The Japanese, we could argue, had more to lose and thus valued life more. But Iraq and most of the Middle East is desperate, fearful, angry, and looking for someone to blame. They chose America.
Christians in America, while admittedly, they have more to lose than many Muslims in the Middle East, have also made statements to the effect of exterminating other cultures and religions, because they are fearful, angry, and looking for someone to blame.
Especially here, I hear a lot about declining morality and how this country is going downhill. Those statements are made out of insecurity and fear. While I believe our insecurity is more of a fear of change and economic instability, others will look for someone to blame. That’s where wars in Iraq, which result in the deaths of thousands of civilians, seem justified. That’s where hate crimes seem justified.
JLM-
well than its 700 years younger (give or take what, half a century?) Christianity, which is much older than Christianity. Judaism had it’s time to, but it seemed more defensive, though it seemed to only be the few Zealots that cared to that extent. If I remember correctly the death toll there was much lower. I believe the battle was just before the exile, Zealots took hold and were able to hold off the Romans for months before being defeated, an astounding achievement but one not representative of the whole of Judaism at the time.
“The crusades started because muslims were burning christian churches down. ”
No they didn’t- they started because Muslims started “encroaching” on Jerusalem- not because it was a “holy place” but because it was a major economic trading hub for the Europeans with Asia.
The whole religion-bit was put forth in order to “fire-up” the peasants to fight a war that really only benefited the rich traders that went through the area or the rich landowners of Europe that obtained goods from the traders.
Jasper-
obviously there is no deterrant from kids having sex. What difference is the birth control make aside from prevent some pregnancies and thus prevent at least some abortions? Isn’t that the goal for the pro life movement? Get rid of abortion? Isn’t reduction a step in the right direction?
“We were given a conscience for a reason. Use it.”
a well formed conscience. following a badly formed consciense can cause people to lose their faith..and their salvation as well.
“Well, Rae, (10:57) you’re in good company. :D There are many things I would like to change about American culture too (abortion on demand, for example)….
But that’s a tad different than hating America as a whole! :) ”
That would be one I’d like to change but there are also more that you like but I loathe as well as things that you loathe and I like.
Ooer- that was a terrible sentence.
But Rae, the people who are farthest to the left truly do hate America and everything it stands for. I don’t see you as one of those people.
What a ridiculous statement!!!! If they hated America they’d move out. If anything, they hate everything the Religious Right stands for. That’s not America though, sorry.
Edyt:
Is it that you reject Jesus or His followers?
“a well formed conscience. following a badly formed consciense can cause people to lose their faith..and their salvation as well.”
@Jasper: So? A “poorly formed” (in your opinion) conscience* that causes people to “lose their faith and salvation” (irrelevant) is better than no conscience at all.
“What a ridiculous statement!!!! If they hated America they’d move out. If anything, they hate everything the Religious Right stands for. That’s not America though, sorry.”
Pretty much. I disagree with 99% of the crap the RR spews- but they aren’t America- they’re just a component of American culture I do NOT agree with.
HisMan,
The followers, definitely! ;) (And only some of them. Most are pretty nice people!)
Jasper-
My conscience, personally, pretty much developed in the Catholic tradition. Much of my spiritual thought also falls in that tradition of thought/ideas, but my beliefs in what God is looking for, how He sees/affects events, etc seemingly differs a lot not only from the Catholic Church, but Christianity in general. I do accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, but I do not accept the authority of a man-made, and therefore corruptible, institution over my own spiritual instinct. Corruption has been rampant in various churches throughout history; perhaps that’s a sign that the hierarchy is all an agenda forwarded by a group of people, knowingly or not, twisting His word. Who knows, just some thoughts.
“Isn’t that the goal for the pro life movement? Get rid of abortion? Isn’t reduction a step in the right direction?”
artificial birth control has been around since the sixties. It hasn’t reduced abortion at all. Only encouraged it. As a matter fact, the legalization of artificial birth control led to abortion being legal. And it has led to even born babies being left to die. Thank God we still have courageous people like Jill Stanek around to stop the born babies from being left to die.
Rae-
agreed. Not a fan of the RR by any stretch, I feel they are doing more harm than good and distorting what truly is an amazing message people should choose for themselves to accept or not.
Jasper-
encouraging abortion through preventing pregnancies.
That makes a ton of sense.
artificial birth control has been around since the sixties. It hasn’t reduced abortion at all. Only encouraged it. As a matter fact, the legalization of artificial birth control led to abortion being legal.
Well, abortion was legalized in 1973, and birth control was relatively new even then. Today we have more kinds of birth control that are more effective and even have lower hormone dosages.
Abortion is actually on the decline, and abortion rates are lowest in countries where contraceptives are widely distributed and abortion has the least restrictions.
So I think you may be reading a little too much into Jill’s messages, because the stats prove otherwise.
“So? A “poorly formed” (in your opinion) conscience* that causes people to “lose their faith and salvation” (irrelevant) is better than no conscience at all.”
No Rae, I meant a poorly formed or no consciense is not good.
“agreed. Not a fan of the RR by any stretch, I feel they are doing more harm than good and distorting what truly is an amazing message people should choose for themselves to accept or not.”
@Dan: Pretty much. Religion and faith is meaningless if it’s required or forced. That’s my huge issue with “Christian” nations and “Islamic” nations- it leads to false faith if anything- especially in the Muslim nations where you must be Muslim and follow the laws of Islam or you die.
It’s crap because the whole point of Islam (or any other religion, Christianity is another prime example) is to persevere with your faith and live according to your respective Holy Book *on your own volition*. This makes your faith infinitely stronger than when it’s forced upon you with laws and legislation.
@Jasper: I thought you said a poorly-formed conscience leads to you losing your faith…what is so inherently bad about that? As long as your conscience is still functioning and you still do the right thing (albeit without God), how is that just as bad as not having a conscience at all?
Rae-
You hit the nail on the head. One of the major points behind Christianity was the idea God gave us free will, forcing it through legislation is completely counter to the thoughts behind the idea.
Rae-
either way you go to hell, at least assuming you’ve heard about Christianity, or so seems to be the popular thought.
Rae,
It’s crap because the whole point of Islam (or any other religion, Christianity is another prime example) is to persevere with your faith and live according to your respective Holy Book *on your own volition*. This makes your faith infinitely stronger than when it’s forced upon you with laws and legislation.
Stronger? Perhaps easier to abide by, but I wouldn’t say stronger. It’s a lot stronger (in my opinion) to hold faith through opposition.
Or non-faith, I might add. I bet it would be pretty hard to be an atheist in Iran.
Dan,
forming ones consciense can be a life long event.
You rebelled against the Catholic church because of what men did. Instead, you should’ve just refered to the Cathicism and the bible. The number of good priests, bishops, etc far outnumber the bad ones, you just don’t hear about it on the secular nightly news.
Now, in your rebelion, you are accepting moral relativism all around you but you don’t see it. Your very smart Dan, please don’t take the wrong path.
“Stronger? Perhaps easier to abide by, but I wouldn’t say stronger. It’s a lot stronger (in my opinion) to hold faith through opposition.”
@Edyt: That’s what I said…I probably phrased it poorly. Choosing to hold onto your faith in a situation in which may or may not be hostile is important.
:-/
It’s also illegal to be an atheist in Iran- Egypt too (did a research project last year on religious freedom in Egypt- yeah…it’s nonexistent, you can be executed for being atheist).
~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
“either way you go to hell, at least assuming you’ve heard about Christianity, or so seems to be the popular thought.”
@Dan: lol…well, I don’t buy that, personally. If I were God, all that would matter is if you were a good person (kind, generous, humble, etc)- I wouldn’t care less if you believed in my existence or not. I feel it would be unjust to do otherwise.
Of course- I’m not God. :)
“Now, in your rebelion, you are accepting moral relativism all around you but you don’t see it. Your very smart Dan, please don’t take the wrong path.”
@Jasper: I don’t see where Dan has accepted moral relativism at all. Oh wait- you’re only saying that because he’s pro-choice and completely ignoring everything else he’s ever said.
Jasper-
I never accepted the Bible as the pure Word of God, the hand of man has touched it, and I believe it to be corrupt. I think the general idea is correct, but that specifics have been twisted, reworded and tweaked to promote the agenda of those who were in power.
I am aware the good outnumber the bad, in fact I loved my parish’s priest while I attended church. He had his problems with alcohol later on, as he was shunted with so much responsibility/pressure he felt he had no other way to deal with it. However he has since recovered but has, for obvious reasons, left that parish and gone elsewhere. I moved into the area of another parish, but I I don’t get the same feeling here that I did in the original. It just seems far more distant and rigid than that of my former parish. In any event, I take religion seriously, so much so that if I disagree with a single piece of doctrine, as I disagree with numerous of the “smaller” doctrines of the Catholic Church, I do not consider myself Catholic, as much as I may want to.
Ahh, I see. Sorry Rae, I must have misread your statement.
Do you know if they kill foreign tourists for being atheist? I’ve always wanted to visit Egypt…
Rae-
I feel the same way. Of course, I feel that very few have seemed worthy of eternal damnation in this world. There are certainly those I say I’d like to see in hell, but then comparing the unimaginable punishments and the length of eternity and comparing that to the crime, I’m not so sure hell is exactly what its been passed on to be.
Rae-
I think there’s probably plenty of evidence to make that judgement. Even if I were pro life I would advocate for pro choice laws, as people should make that decision on their own in my view. I think there is an argument to be made seeing me as a believer in moral relativity. I don’t see my way, or my religion for that matter, as the only way to God, or even religion itself per se.
@Edyt: I have no idea- but I would *highly* suggest that you either a) lie and say you’re at least Christian (they don’t really like Christians and they are most definitely bigoted and commit a lot of “legal” harassment against them, but it’s not illegal…yet). or b) say absolutely nothing on your faith or lack there of.
Just my two cents, they probably will- if anything- throw you in jail if you start publicly spouting off about the wonders of atheism- but because they are kind of our beeyotch (how else does Mubarak manage to stay President?)- they probably wouldn’t dare kill an American citizen.
Alright guys, I should be off to bed. I have to get up in a little less than five and a half hours.
“I thought you said a poorly-formed conscience leads to you losing your faith…what is so inherently bad about that? ”
because, your salvation is at stake. Plus having no faith and a poorly formed consciense can make it a lot more difficult handling crisis in one’s life. Having a well formed consciense can lead to good decison making as well. A family of true faith and attends church together usually stays together. I’ve seen examples of this over and over in my life. Having faith in Christ can make people truly strong in handling tough situations.
Who cares about salvation? I don’t. I don’t believe in it.
And that’s not necessarily true. My mom is a luke-warm Catholic at best and my dad is a vaguely agnostic Methodist- they haven’t gone to Church regularly in years and guess what? They’ve been married nearly 26 years now with no signs of divorce.
Then again- your (biased) anecdotal evidence is just as meaningless as my (biased) anecdotal evidence, so why bother presenting it?
“Jasper: I don’t see where Dan has accepted moral relativism at all. Oh wait- you’re only saying that because he’s pro-choice”
Yes, I am. I not ignoring the many good things that Dan has accomplish. But he accepting legalized abortion, which is bad.
Well, Rae and Jasper, I think there’s a lot that can be said about the support system the church provides. In times of crisis, you have an automatic support group who can provide both time, money, and emotional support which really does help families get through tough times.
But then again, that’s not so much a testament to faith as much as it’s the wonderful aspect of community.
“And that’s not necessarily true. My mom is a luke-warm Catholic at best and my dad is a vaguely agnostic Methodist- they haven’t gone to Church regularly in years and guess what? They’ve been married nearly 26 years now with no signs of divorce.”
thats true for your parents Rae. and mine too btw. Mine were vaguely Catholic. and I tell you what, many of the problems my siblings had could’ve have been avoided if they were taught true faith.
“Then again- your (biased) anecdotal evidence is just as meaningless as my (biased) anecdotal evidence, so why bother presenting it?”
Becuase I want to see you in heaven.
If you had 3 communities to live in:
an truly atheist community, a truly muslim community or a truly christian communnity.
which would you choose? where would the most love be present?
“Well, Rae and Jasper, I think there’s a lot that can be said about the support system the church provides. In times of crisis, you have an automatic support group who can provide both time, money, and emotional support which really does help families get through tough times.”
Edyt, you’re always welcome in Jesus’s church. As much as we disagree, I would love to see you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
I can understand that Edyt.
Please keep in mind that Christians are people too and many times much more imperfect than the people they try to convert.
I think most of the time it’s out of love. I don’t think any of the Christian pro-lifers on this site want to hurt you or wish you harm.
Let’s keep talking OK? Gotta go, so stay safe and hope to talk tomorrow.
Edyt,
Yeah, plants are renewable. But not when you eradicate them.
That’s what we keep trying to tell you about babies.
They are renewable, but not when you eradicate them :)
Edyt,
I don’t know if that point is in the near future or not, but we’re at 6.7 billion and growing. When do you suppose we should start thinking about it?
We should be at 7.7 billion. And I think about that a lot…
jasper’s quote of the day –
More American babies – both male and female – have been slaughtered right here on American soil in just one year, than all the American military men and women who became casualties of war from the inception of this republic to the present day, both home and abroad.
~ Reed Heustis, Jr., No Memorial Day for America’s Unborn, CovenantNews.com
Good morning, mk!
I’m helping to supervise 600 kids at a school picnic today. Yahoo!
We should be at 7.7 billion. And I think about that a lot…
Amen, Marykay!
Janet,
Last week I helped supervise 700 for circus day…
Good Luck. Wear comfortable shoes. Better yet, go to Jamaica.
Janet,
Last week I helped supervise 700 for circus day…
Good Luck. Wear comfortable shoes. Better yet, go to Jamaica.
mk: ha ha! I bet it was a circus! Got my shoes….Jamaica’s gonna have to wait.:)
U.S. Abortion Deaths Compared to U.S. War Deaths
Each “i” symbol represents 10,000 people (or fraction) killed.
Revolutionary War – 4,435 deaths.
i
Civil War (both sides) – 498,332 deaths.
iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii
World War I – 116,708 deaths.
iiiiiiiiiiii
World War II – 407,316 deaths.
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Korea – 25,604 deaths.
iii
Vietnam – 58,168 deaths.
iiiiii
Total killed due to abortion since 1973 – 40,000,000 (40 MILLION) deaths.
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http://www.htmlbible.com/abortstats.htm
and counting…and that is just the US.
Wow, great visual, Marykay.
Janet, wow…. 600 kids!
Thank you MK.
Puts it in perspective for this prolifer.
Last week I helped supervise 700 for circus day…
A while back my brother and I took his two daughers and quite a few other girls to Chuck E. Cheese for a birthday party.
Afterwards, he and I were like, “Okay, enough of that….”
We should be at 7.7 billion.
MK, should be ? Holy Crow….
I’ve talked with John about this, but if anything I think it will be population pressure itself that results in a “worsening” of things in your opinion – more sentiment for legal abortion, etc.
Don’t know how long it will take to appear, if it does, but right now I bet that the dramatically higher costs of fuel and food will result in people wanting less kids overall.
Not saying that’s “good” or “bad,” either, just that I expect we’ll be able to observe it in “real time” since things are changing so fast.
I’m helping to supervise 600 kids at a school picnic today. Yahoo!
Janet, that’s a good attitude you have there.
Good luck.
MK,
Where did you get the 7.7 billion number? I thought it was about 7 billion but then I looked it up and a May 2008 estimate from Wikipedia said 6.7, and that was verified by every other website on Google’s first search page for “world population.”
Are there a billion unaccounted people?
Abortion is increasing!!
We may have aborted many great people. It’s just another sad day of legal abortion. PCers are winning, or are they?
“We may have aborted many great people. It’s just another sad day of legal abortion. PCers are winning, or are they?”
Oh please Heather, we may have also aborted the next Hitler, Stalin, Fred Phelps, etc.
Just remember:
(prankplace.com)
When your own Middle Finger just isn’t enough, use this Giant Inflatable Middle Finger! Now you can flip people off in an extra large way without causing added stress to the delicate muscles in your fingers. Great for angry people with arthritis or carpal tunnel! It even comes in two different colors, so it looks even more realistic…other than the fact that it is so big of course! The Giant Inflatable Middle Finger is also easy to sneak into stadiums and blow up during the game. Show the other team what you REALLY think of them!
Oh please Heather, we may have also aborted the next Hitler, Stalin, Fred Phelps, etc.
Posted by: Rae at May 28, 2008 12:54 PM——————— So, I guess killing is okay based on “what ifs” I see you’re still as PC as ever, Rae…..*sigh*
mk:7:36:
Those visuals are mind-boggling. Just makes me want to cry.
“So, I guess killing is okay based on “what ifs” I see you’re still as PC as ever, Rae…..*sigh*”
@Heather: No, that’s not what I’m saying at all. What I *was* trying to say (which was obviously over your head) was that going on those “what ifs” for EITHER side of the debate is stupid. Uneducated PLers always say, “Well gee willakers Jimbo- that fetus could have been the next Albert Einstein!” and then the dimwitted PCer goes, “Well gee golly, it could have also been the next Hitler!”
When in reality- none of those are true- more likely than not that baby/fetus would have become just an ordinary individual- unique yes- but not a genius like Einstein or a total dipsh*t like Hitler. Potentiality arguments are futile and show a gross lack in really thinking the issue through and do nothing but meaninglessly play on emotions.
Obviously I should have been more clear with my sarcasm in that post and added a “*rollseyes*” to demonstrate my sarcasm in my reply to you.
“”And that’s not necessarily true. My mom is a luke-warm Catholic at best and my dad is a vaguely agnostic Methodist- they haven’t gone to Church regularly in years and guess what? They’ve been married nearly 26 years now with no signs of divorce.”
thats true for your parents Rae. and mine too btw. Mine were vaguely Catholic. and I tell you what, many of the problems my siblings had could’ve have been avoided if they were taught true faith.
>>>>> May I ask like what problems? My brothers and I are really no better or worse off than those raised in strictly religious homes (we did go to church every Sunday in our youth- up until my now 18 year old brother and I were in high school). Yeah we have problems, but that’s more because my brother Brady (who’s 18) and I both have severe depression and anxiety issues as well as *massive* tempers (just like me mutti and vati). That’s by no fault of my parents (unless they had a way of checking for genetic predispositions out mental illness).
Anywho, my point is- yeah we weren’t that religious but my brothers and I have little to no problems (mental health aside). my “older” younger brother and I don’t drink, smoke, do drugs, or have premarital sex. My “younger” younger brother doesn’t do any of that either (and he’s 13- damn right he better not be doing that stuff or he’s in for an ass-whoopin’).
“Then again- your (biased) anecdotal evidence is just as meaningless as my (biased) anecdotal evidence, so why bother presenting it?”
Becuase I want to see you in heaven.
If you had 3 communities to live in:
an truly atheist community, a truly muslim community or a truly christian communnity.
which would you choose? where would the most love be present?”
>>>>>>>>> I don’t know what I would choose. But I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at- are you trying to say atheists and Muslims are incapable of the love Christianity brings? I would say atheists are very capable of being loving and supportive- as are Muslims- as are Christians. So i can’t really say as I’ve never experienced a very loving Christian community and I am unfamiliar with a totally atheist or Muslim community.
Though just so you know- I’m not an atheist. :) I’m a struggling agnostic-Catholic hybrid thingie as I follow most of the Catholic Church’s teachings…but I still struggle with the concept of God/Satan/Jesus…if that makes *any* sense at all.
Rae said 8:33: When in reality- none of those are true- more likely than not that baby/fetus would have become just an ordinary individual- unique yes- but not a genius like Einstein or a total dipsh*t like Hitler. Potentiality arguments are futile and show a gross lack in really thinking the issue through and do nothing but meaninglessly play on emotions.
Rae, potentiality arguments just take a little imagination, really. You’re right, we’re all unique. We won’t all be Einsteins, but we can all be good at our chosen vocation. Isn’t that what all parents want?
As Mother Theresa says, “we don’t all have to do great things, but we can all do small things with great love“. That potential for love in the world is lost when a baby is aborted.
“Rae, potentiality arguments just take a little imagination, really. You’re right, we’re all unique. We won’t all be Einsteins, but we can all be good at our chosen vocation. Isn’t that what all parents want?”
I agree with that- we are all unique and have the capability at being good at our chosen profession, as you said. :) That’s what I was getting at because on PL boards I frequent on facebook, I *always* see comments like, “OMG! We prolly abortd teh persin who culd hav curd teh cancerz!” (yes- it is spelled *that* badly too)- and I always think- you know…statistically that fetus/baby that was aborted most likely was of average intelligence and would have been just an average- yet unique- individual. Why do we feel the need to press potential “specialness” on fetuses/babies in order to make them important?
I find those with the common jobs like teachers, nurses, garbage people (gotta be PC), and what not to be *much* more important than some guy who can rattle off the advanced physics. Why don’t we care about the potential teachers, nurses, garbage people, etc being aborted rather than the potential Einsteins and Hitlers?
Rae,
a couple of my older brothers and one of sisters had trouble with depression and anxiety as well, including myself at a time. I was trying to convey that these types of problems can be handled easier if one has faith and prays.
“I don’t know what I would choose. But I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at- are you trying to say atheists and Muslims are incapable of the love Christianity brings?”
Yes. I do believe that.
@Jasper: My problems are handled quite fine with a daily dose of Zoloft. :)
Why do you believe that?
Hehe yeah, Rae, I’ve tried to pray my way through an anxiety attack….
Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn’t. That’s why God gave me Xanax. :)
“For this reason I say to you, do not be anxious for your life, as to what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor for your body, as to what you shall put on. Is not life more than food, and the body than clothing? Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they? And which of you by being anxious can add a single cubit to his life’s span? And why are you anxious about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory did not clothe himself like one of these. But if God so arrays the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more do so for you, O men of little faith? Do not be anxious then, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘With what shall we clothe ourselves?’ For all these things the Gentiles eagerly seek; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you. Therefore do not be anxious for tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.” -(Matthew 6:25-34)
Edyt,
MK,
Where did you get the 7.7 billion number? I thought it was about 7 billion but then I looked it up and a May 2008 estimate from Wikipedia said 6.7, and that was verified by every other website on Google’s first search page for “world population.”
*
Are there a billion unaccounted people?
6.7 billion + 1 billion aborted = 7.7 billion…
Over 1 billion are missing.
Rae, it’s time for you to grow up.
Rae:
I understand where you are coming from on “potentiality arguments”. Maybe it’s not good to use that type of argument, but when you’re desperate to get through to someone, we use it as a last resort, you know? No one is implying that other jobs are not as worthy. Using the example of the person who cured cancer is akin to saying, “it doesn’t take a rocket scientist”. (This doesn’t mean to imply that anyone who isn’t a rocket scientist is dumb).
@Heather: I could easily say the same for you.
@Janet: If it’s a last ditch effort to reach somebody- that tells me either a) your previous methods aren’t working so instead of resorting to an argument that well- is fallacious and easy to defeat, why not agree to disagree for the time being and work on strengthening your other arguments or b) that person is overly stubborn and probably won’t listen to you no matter what you say.
MK, for obvious reasons, we don’t include the dead in our population count. Otherwise there are somewhere around 100 billion people on earth.
Karma is just an Asian word for an almost
universally known and accepted idea;that is,until
Christianity wiped it out in the west.
And if you think the Bible doesn’t mention it,
what about”As ye sow,so shall ye reap”?
What comes around goes around.
And by the way,Asian cultures do not oppose
abortion.There it is accepted as unfortunate
but inevitable.
Edyt,
MK, for obvious reasons, we don’t include the dead in our population count. Otherwise there are somewhere around 100 billion people on earth.
I didn’t count them either. 6.7 billion it is. Is said that should say 7.7 billion, but 1 billion of them have been slaughtered!
Robert,
2 spaces after periods.
1 space after commas.
Paragraphs…
Karma is just an Asian word for an almost universally known and accepted idea; that is, until Christianity wiped it out in the west. And if you think the Bible doesn’t mention it, what about”As ye sow,so shall ye reap”?
What comes around goes around. And by the way,Asian cultures do not oppose abortion.There it is accepted as unfortunate but inevitable.
Robert, I think you’re hitting the “Enter” key when you don’t have to.
Indeed, Christianity draws heavily on older religions.
Robert, how old are you?
@Janet: If it’s a last ditch effort to reach somebody- that tells me either a) your previous methods aren’t working so instead of resorting to an argument that well- is fallacious and easy to defeat, why not agree to disagree for the time being and work on strengthening your other arguments or b) that person is overly stubborn and probably won’t listen to you no matter what you say.
Posted by: Rae at May 29, 2008 8:45 AM
Well I’m the first to admit I haven’t converted every PC’r I’ve talked to. I think you’re giving me too much credit for having a strategy. I think sometimes a quick point can be as effective as a long drawn out argument. Maybe a light bulb will go on in a few months, or a few years or never. I agree that some people won’t agree no matter what. I guess we can agree to disagree.
Come on Robert, give it up – how old are you? (Please.)
I’m 49 here.
Best,
Doug
“Well I’m the first to admit I haven’t converted every PC’r I’ve talked to. I think you’re giving me too much credit for having a strategy. I think sometimes a quick point can be as effective as a long drawn out argument. Maybe a light bulb will go on in a few months, or a few years or never. I agree that some people won’t agree no matter what. I guess we can agree to disagree.”
That we can. :) Cheers!
Stone’s “karma” crack reaps her bad karma
I posted a YouTube video this week of actress Sharon Stone blaming karma for the devastating Chinese earthquake. The Chinese, communists that they are, are taking a more heavy-handed approach than Americans when dealing with Hollywood liberals, banning…
“Indeed, Christianity draws heavily on older religions.”
Careful here, Doug. I know you didn’t come out and say it, but it seems that you and Robert may be of the opinion that since Christianity is similar to other religions that this is evidence that it is made up or borrowed from older religions? There are actually several explanations for this.
1. Coincidence.
2. Christianity’s belief actually came first.
3. God did things that were similar to pagan myths (like the flood story) in order to show his power and might over those false Gods; that he indeed was the one true God.
4. The analogy doesn’t actually apply. This happens a lot when people claim that Christianity stole the idea of a virgin birth from paganism. If I recall, the details of the pagan “virgin birth” story are no where near what Christianity claims. The pagan one is more like a god having intercourse with a human woman and giving birth to a demi-god, so it doesn’t even apply.
This is also a case of what is called the genetic fallacy; that is, one falsely concludes that because they know the origin of a certain belief or idea, it must not be true. I know you didn’t come out and say all this, Doug, but I just wanted to clarify in case anyone was wondering.
I’m 27 Robert!
God love ya’ll.
Hey Bobby,
1. Coincidence.
Could be, but also could be due to people’s common and frequent need to believe in certain types of things.
……
2. Christianity’s belief actually came first.
I think that would just be a “no,” there.
…..
3. God did things that were similar to pagan myths (like the flood story) in order to show his power and might over those false Gods; that he indeed was the one true God.
It’s all a matter of belief in the first place, and we’d be back to the later timing of Christianity.
…..
4. The analogy doesn’t actually apply. This happens a lot when people claim that Christianity stole the idea of a virgin birth from paganism. If I recall, the details of the pagan “virgin birth” story are no where near what Christianity claims. The pagan one is more like a god having intercourse with a human woman and giving birth to a demi-god, so it doesn’t even apply.
You may well be right, here – I didn’t know there was such a pagan belief.
I’m 47, Robert! (Did I just say that?)
And, may I say, that is one fine-looking 47.
MK,
I didn’t count them either. 6.7 billion it is. Is said that should say 7.7 billion, but 1 billion of them have been slaughtered!
Even that number is not accurate. Women have been having abortions and committing infanticide since as far back as we have history for. Why not count those people as well? And since that would account for more people, exponentially that could probably account for a few billion more people.
But then we’re doing a disservice to other people who have been murdered, so clearly we should include them in our count, and since the Israelites and other “God’s Chosen People” were responsible for quite a few deaths in those early years of human demographic growth, we can argue that our population today would probably be around 20 billion or so… if we hadn’t killed all those people.
Don’t forget to add the number of people we would have had if those aborted/murdered people would have had kids!