New poll/Old poll
The new poll question is up:
What is the key ingredient to maintaining a strong relationship?
Pretty simple, straightforward.
Here are the answers to last week’s poll. You’re a bunch of hardliners…
Click on one of the maps below to enlarge to find your personal brightly colored flag. Note that if you made multiple choices, only 1 shows up on the map:
As always, make comments to either this or last week’s poll here, not on the Vizu website.
Jul.12, 2008 9:04 am |
Polls |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Should
A Shared Belief in God be listed as other?
I said communication. I mean, it’s kind of the umbrella for everything else. If you’re communicating then you can either reconcile disagreements about family values, money, etc, or you can know without needing to find out the hard way that those disagreements are irreconcilable and as such head out in search of a stronger relationship.
Shared faith in Christ.
Communication: about money, goals, dreams, having or not having children, religion…
If you can’t talk to your spouse, you won’t last as a marriage.
Carla, I considered “shared belief in God” to fit into “family values.”
I think a shared religious belief whether it’s in God or not is pretty important. Mostly because one of my friends “secretly” got her daughter baptized because her daughter’s father hates Catholics and would have never let her get the kid baptized. That was one of those moments when I was sooooo glad to be a single mom. I got my baby baptized and didn’t have to discuss or ask anyone’s permission to do it. :)
I would say a mix of communication and empathy.
Self-sacrifice. It’s never about “me” anymore. It’s always either us or you.
I clicked “family values”, but to me communication *is* a family value, so I sort of vaciliated between the two.
I think, ultimately, the most important thing is to know where your partner stands on various issues and keep communication lines open when a problem creeps up.
I think that marriages work best when partners present an united front, but I have known inter-faith couples who have managed to work things out. In this case I think that very clear discussions must be had, and core values must align even if actual religion does not.
I also think commitment is huge.
Oops, I also forgot to say that I agree with Bobby. There has to be sacrifice in a relationship. No one should become a doormat, but I think it is *very* important to try to see the situation from your spouses point of view.
A Shared Belief in God/Christ.
Shared beliefs and each person should be willing to give 100%. (No, that’s not a typo.)
:)
Jill Stanek @ 10:39 AM
That’s exactly what I thought and why I voted that way.
I would think “shared goals.” People stay together if they want the same things and the same life. The flipside of that is that I think people should accept that everyone changes over time. I remember one writer saying, “I’ve had six marriages, all of them to the same woman.”
Anybody here that has ever gone on a journey, knows that the first question you want answered is “Where are we going”…
Sometimes it’s fun to just get on the bus or get in the car and just go, but if you knew that you couldn’t change your mind, you’d want to know where you were going before you committed to going.
I think relationships are like journeys. If you’re not both going to the same place, the trip is gonna reek.
“Sure you can play cards, and read, and do all sorts of things to pass the time, but unless both parties are agreed on where they are going to end up, ain’t no one gonna enjoy the trip.
You want to go on a cruise to Alaska, he wants to go it Italy.
You’re going to spend your lives together. The goal should be same for each of you.
For my husband and me, it’s the goal of getting each other to heaven, raising a family, getting them to heaven. We enjoy each others company enough that the ride has been fun.
I can’t imagine tho, what it would be like, if family wasn’t first for him, or God wasn’t first for me…all of the other stuff, for us, is gravy.
House, car, vacations, even sex…none of those compare to the fact that we both have the same destination in mind. It’s what gets us through the rough times. It keeps us focused, and gives us the incentive to keep going even when we feel like leaving each other at the next rest stop.
“Life has taught us that love does not consist in gazing at each other but in looking outward in the same direction.”
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
birth control
I know a lot of people with healthy relationships that are not Christians. I think it would more have to do with whether the couple had the same religious (or lack thereof) mindset. Like I don’t see an atheist and an evangelical having a healthy relationship. But I can see two atheists or two evangelicals or two buddhists or two pastafarians all having healthy relationships.
Since the type of relationship is not defined in the question, the only answer is communication. I would hope in unecessary for anyone to share religions or sex with a neighbor, friend, co-worker or child to maintain a strong relationship.
Faith in Christ is the only answer and a strong devotion to Mother Mary. I know because our marriage has lasted 48 years through trials & tribulations . . .
Self-sacrifice. It’s never about “me” anymore. It’s always either us or you.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at July 12, 2008 11:09 AM
Brings to mind: I am THIRD
Most important to me: shared values and faith!
You can have all the communication you want, but unless you share the same values, the marriage is dead in the water!
Deacon John 7:10: Faith in Christ is the only answer and a strong devotion to Mother Mary. I know because our marriage has lasted 48 years through trials & tribulations . . .
Congratulations on 48 years of marriage! God bless you and your family.
mk: For my husband and me, it’s the goal of getting each other to heaven, raising a family, getting them to heaven. We enjoy each others company enough that the ride has been fun.
For us too! Not an easy job, is it? :)
How was the Truth Tour? Good turnout? And the rest of your busy day?
I only did the first stop…turnout was good, but not great. Fairly uneventful. I heard that Friday was pretty bad though. 2 incidences with knives and one with eggs…don’t know the details. Maybe Truthseeker does?
What is the key ingredient to maintaining a strong relationship?
Timely bathing and deodorant.
I didn’t make it to Friday’s stop cause I was working mk. I hadn’t heard anything about those incidents on Friday. Sounds “eventful” though.
It was exciting enough for me when the occasional pro-aborts gave us the finger. I am glad I didn’t have to turn a knife on anyone though, which is likely what would have happened if a crazed pro-abort had threatened one of my children there with a knife.
Knives brought by pro-choicers? Yikes? I think I’ll bring a camera in case that happens again.
Communication, like crazy. My husband and I come from much different backgrounds and value sets, but part of the happiness of our marriage comes from working through those differences, and I’m not certain I’d have such a fulfilling relationship with him if we didn’t have those differences. I’m my happiest when I’m being challenged intellectally and being forced to think about my goals and ideals, and the best way for that to happen is to spend time with someone who makes you look at everything from a different point of view.
Oh, and my family and I arrived home safely from California yesterday, and we’re glad to be back. Thank you all for your kind wishes and prayers.
Xalisae, well said.
Yeah, (no matter what else) communication is the deal.
Jill, maybe you can take a poll that will help me in writing my article:
If/When you got pregnant in college, what would/did you do?
With explanations in the threads…
How about it?
I totally agree with Doug. Both are essential for any kind of relationship.
Lately I would add Rock Band.
Being fans of the same sports team is almost a must. I could never date a University of Louisville fan. Never in a million years. I would convert to Shaker-ism before I would do that. Some differences you just can’t get past.
Posted by: mk at July 12, 2008 3:11 PM
perfect !
I assumed that you meant a romantic relationship, and, therefore, I chose “family values.” I’m not married, and will likely never be, but have found that my relationships fail when I date people who don’t have a strong sense of values. You can communicate all you want, but you’re never going to get anywhere if you’re starting from different places.
pip, that would be a GREAT poll question…mostly because I have an answer to it. :)
My mom is Pagan and my dad is Catholic. Their 30th anniversary is next week. My aunt married a Jewish man – I think they’ve been married 36. So if “faith in Christ” falls under values, I guess I’d have to go with Communication.
Amanda,
Congratulations to your parents on 30 Years! I agree that communication is sooooo important. My grandma used to say “never go to bed angry”. It’s hard to do sometimes, but a goal to strive for. Some other general advice – don’t forget to laugh and smile and be silly together!
What’s a Pagan?
There are several different things, I believe, that one could mean by pagan. It could refer to a wiccan or witch. Usually there is some sort of worship of nature or the earth involved. Some associate it with New Age, like the book “A New Earth” by Eckhart Tolle. Or Amanda could mean it in kind of a facetious way, where she just means that her mom has no religion. MK used to be a pagan in the wicca sense.
I was curious too, as to what Amanda meant by pagan?
It’s true Carla. I was a pagan/wiccan prior to my re-version to Catholicism.
For me, it meant tarot cards, astrology, witchcraft, drugs, sex, magic…you name it. But it could be as innocuous as simply not being sure if God is a man or a woman…
From Wiki:
Paganism (from Latin paganus, meaning “country dweller, rustic”, also called paynim) is a word used to refer to various religions and religious beliefs from across the world. It is a term which, from a Western perspective, has modern connotations of spiritualist, animistic or shamanic practices or beliefs of any folk religion, and of historical and contemporary polytheistic religions in particular.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism
It’s meanings are so varied as to become meaningless…
mk —
Why did you decide to practice wicca? Why did you decide to stop?
I always think of the term ‘pagan’ as being roughly akin to ‘monotheistic.’ It describes a very general religious view but is meaningless for actually describing the practices and values of an individual person.
Off topic, here’s something I wondered last night, out of the blue: would you rather I converted to being pro-life or to being a Christian? I know that you probably think being Christian means being pro-life, but many Christians are not pro-life, so for the purposes of this question let’s assume they’re two separate things.
PRO-LIFE! Or does my answer not count because I’m not religious myself? :P
Alex,
Oooohh another Sophies choice…lol.
I guess I’d have to say Christian. For obvious reasons, preferably Catholic.
For one thing, as you pointed out, if you truly converted, pro life would take care of itself.
But mostly, the thought of you actually having a relationship with God, taking your incredible personality out to the world, using your brains for God…well, you’d be quite an asset.
Any time a soul returns home, my heart soars. It pleases me, it pleases my Jesus, and it benefits someone that I care about…win/win/win!
As to pro choice Christians? I question their Christianity. I don’t think you can really love God and kill His creations in the same breath. You might honestly believe that you can, but that would just be yet more trickery by the devil.
I mean seriously, what could make him happier, than knowing you are publicly doing satans will, while claiming that it’s Gods…you get to do evil, blame it on God, and draw others into the deception. Win/win/win for the dark side.
If you truly converted, you’d be in the light, and the light would reveal what lies in the shadows. You couldn’t stay pro choice for long…
Ha, x, your answer counts! But I intended the question for MK because she helped me find Catholic churches in my area and answered some of my general questions about being Catholic. So I was just curious.
As to pro choice Christians? I question their Christianity. I don’t think you can really love God and kill His creations in the same breath. You might honestly believe that you can, but that would just be yet more trickery by the devil.
I have to admit I don’t understand how people reconcile HAVING an abortion with Christianity except to say that they were wrong. I can understand how people reconcile being pro-choice in the political sense — not wanting abortion criminalized — with being Christian, though.
Anyway, I don’t know why it occurred to me to ask. I know I’ve been out of touch but I haven’t forgotten the things you said.
And, there was a time I thought about getting into wicca myself, because I have a great reverence for nature. I have a pentacle necklace that my first boyfriend bought for me long ago which I often wear as a symbol of how I feel, but it’s just not easy for me to get into ceremonies and rituals and stuff like that. I read tarot, but I don’t think it’s real…just like a game. Drugs…anything hard, count me WAY out…I don’t have a problem with alcohol and the like, but using such things more than sparingly and rarely is a place I really don’t want to be. I almost feel the same about sex…I think Epicurus had it figured out, to a large degree.
As for my conversion story…everyone here has heard it so many times, they could probably tell you themselves.
It had to do with the moment a friend of mine pulled out a Goddess candle at our annual renaissance faire campout. It was a pretty raunchy affair and included some very colorful behavior, sexually, and otherwise.
It struck me that this wasn’t a game and that if I joined in worshipping the Goddess, I was committing myself to something pretty serious. I’d been living the lifestyle for 15 years, but always attributed the “magic” to God. Now it was being made clear to me that what I was worshipping was NOT God, and I had a decision to make. Some other things happened that trip that really shook me up.
When I got home I saw a PBS special on the apparations at Medjugorge. The messages the children were receiving were pretty powerful.
I taped the show on an old pink vhs tape I had laying around. When I went to label it “Madonna of Medjugorge” I saw that it was already labeled. It was a Madonna special my girlfriend had taped. The same one that had brought the Goddess candle.
The day I got back from the trip a friend from New Jersey stopped by. She told me she’d moved home with her mom because her husband had been physically abusing her. Her mom insisted that as long as she was living in her house, she had to attend Sunday Mass.
We started a discussion, me saying that all religions led to the same place. Her saying that she used to think so too, but then she said “The one thing, tho, that the Catholic church has, that no other religion does, is the EUCHARIST”
I swear to you, it felt like someone had punched me in the stomach.
Slowly I started reading more and more about medjugorge. I went with my mom to a Marian Conference in Pittsburg. I was on the toilet in the hotel bathroom (my mom and kids were in the bedroom) and had just pulled out my one hitter and pot…I filled the bowl and was about to light it when I heard an inner voice say…”If you light that bowl, you’re on your own, but if you throw it away, I will save you”…I sat there stunned for quite some time, wrestling with myself. Finally, I realized that this was a moment of truth for me.
(Keep in mind that I had smoked pot every day of my life since I was 17. I was now 30 something. I was fighting a cocaine addiction, abused alcohol, was promiscuous, even tho I was married…)
I threw the bowl and the pot in the garbage, stood up and swore myself to Him forever. It was the most intense moment of my life. I just gave up/gave in…
I have not only never touched a drug since then, I have never desired to. That was over 15 years ago. My life is so awesome now. Little miracles, amazing “coincidences”, incredible people, and a peace so deep, so all encompassing, that I cannot describe it.
Don’t get me wrong. He works me like a dog. But there is now joy in my work. Peace in my soul. I am happy in a way that I didn’t even know was possible. And not in a WOW kind of way…in a very deep, profound, quiet way…more like a whisper than a shout…although there are plenty of WOW moments…
So the short answer to your question is “I had my conversion on a toilet”. Which is where my life was at the time. God DOES have a sense of humor.
BTW,
I still have that VCR tape. The lable reads
MADONNA/MADONNA OF MEDJUGORGE.
X,
I read tarot, but I don’t think it’s real…just like a game.
That was exactly where I was. Until Tina pulled out that candle. That’s when it hit me, that it WAS’NT a game. And I had a choice to make.
For me, the tarot was very real. I can’t tell you how many times I had people leave in the middle of a reading because it was too intense.
The question is, where was that power coming from.
Seeing that Goddess candle, made me realize, that it wasn’t coming from a “good” place. It was real enough, but at what cost?
Oh my goodness, MK! Believe it or not, I had never heard all that (I heard bits and pieces, but never the toilet part). How beautiful.
Man, now I want to hang out with you even more, MK. When are you visiting New Hampshire? :)
Thanks for sharing, MK!! God is so amazing!!
Well, the first time I ever read for my friend, she was impressed, and had me read for her mother immediately after I was done with hers. I don’t take much stock in it myself, but I guess I’d say the “power” comes from one’s self, like having an aptitude for drawing, or singing, or dancing. Some people are just more in tune with those sorts of things. I don’t see any connection with stuff like that and promiscuity or drug use though, and I’m sorry you had such problems, but I’m glad you got out of such a situation, and if you needed God to do that, I’m glad you found Him. :)
LOL Bobby,
I can’t believe you never heard that story. I guess that’s why I understand where so many people here are coming from. I was there. I know what they believe. And it’s such an innocuous set of beliefs that it is hard to believe it could be harmful.
It’s basically, “Do what ye will, Harm ye none”.
I heard someone say tho once, that it isn’t enough to say “It’s not hurting anyone”…the real question is “Is it benefiting anyone?” Not “It’s not so bad”, but “Is is GOOD?”
It’s not an easy time be a faithful person. There are so many options of what to believe and most of them sound pretty harmless.
Someone once asked me how you know which God to believe in, when there are so many people claiming that theres is the true god.
I think the answer lies in how those other Gods view YOU.
No other God treats us as His children. The others treat us as subjects. No other God, not even the Muslim version, LOVES us. Love is the answer.
Only our God loves us, and desires a relationship with us. Only our God looks out for us, instead of himself. Only our God was willing to sacrifice HIS life for us, instead of asking us to sacrifice OUR life for Him.
And of course, only our faith has the Eucharist.
Carla,
You’re welcome. Now let’s just hope that my mother never reads it…lol.
Yes, God is AMAZING! I feel like Peter when he said “Where would I go?”
Sunday’s reading at Mass was the parable of the Sower.
These words are sooooo powerful…
This is why I speak to them in parables, because
they look but do not see and hear but do not listen or understand.
Isaiah
X,
Yeah, I didn’t mean to make it sound like every pagan is into drugs.
But the creed “Harm ye none” leaves a LOT of room for interpretation.
For me, it was most definitely tied all together. The drugs were “mind-expanding”. The sex was liberating. I thought I was free as a bird. I was wrong.
Now, in hindsight, I can see that I was bound to my desires. If you had asked me at the time if I was doing anything wrong, I would have answered with a vehement NO! I’m not hurting anyone, and I’m having an awful lot of fun.
I wasn’t seeking to change. I wasn’t suffering from guilt. When God intervened, I wasn’t asking for help.
I don’t think I used God like a mind altering drug. He wasn’t a crutch. Or a life preserver.
He instigated the whole thing. Hit me out of the blue. Never saw it coming.
Doug would probably say I imagined the whole thing. But for that to be so, I would have need to “desire” it in the first place. And trust me, I didn’t.
Amen, MK.
X,
If you don’t believe in God, do you believe there is Satan?
I don’t know, honestly. I know there are some really bad things out there that people cannot usually see or touch or hear, but I don’t know if that’s a “devil” and his ilk, or just another typically intangible life form that would wish us ill or be so far outside our realm of comprehension that just the sight of one might fill us with absolute, paralyzing terror. All I know is what I’ve seen, and at this point, I don’t even know what that is. It’s hard to explain.
thanks X.
MK,
When you were involved in “all that” do you think that was Satan? The darkness I mean?
I do believe that Satan is alive and well on this earth FOR A TIME and that he is involved in all evil. I was just wondering about Tarot cards, Ouija boards, seances etc.
Thoughts?
X,
Take abortion. We know that if you really removed all emotion from the topic, it is obviously the taking of a life. It just is.
So what is “it”, that allows people to construe it to be a “good”, to sort of put a veil/fog over reality so that people can convince themselves of everything from it’s not a life, to it’s not a life until…?
If there isn’t something evil, some outside force, how does one explain the fact that some people do such horrible things without any “desire” to do so. Like the Germans in Nazi Germany, that were just regular folk, except for that one tiny thing…you know, gassing people.
Or even exorcisms. They work. Why?
I’m not claiming to have the answers, I’m as puzzled by pure evil as the next guy.
Carla,
Most definitely. That’s what I meant by the power was coming from “somewhere” but it wasn’t God.
I believe Satan is as real as you or I. In the Catholic faith we believe that there are three ways the devil can work in a persons life…
Temptation
Obsession
Possession
Temptation is like he’s standing outside a fortress (you) and luring you out, into the danger zone. This is where sin and false beliefs are found.
Obsession is where he makes chinks in the walls of your fortress and you become obsessed with some particular sin, like pornography, or drugs. Addictions of any kind fall in this category.
Then full out possession, where he breaches the walls and actually enters the fortress.
I most definitely think that I had many, many demons following me around. Some of them not so obvious, some VERY obvious.
“I’m as puzzled by pure evil as the next guy.”
Do you believe that there is such a thing as “pure evil” MK? I tend to think of evil (following Aquinas) as a privation, a lack of something. Part of the problem with the idea of pure evil is that one of the attributes of God is that he encompasses everything, and if there is such a thing as pure evil, it seems he would encompass that too. But if we understand evil as a privation, we see that evil is the lack of something as opposed to an entity in itself.
What do you think?
Bobby,
Yes. I could see that. A complete lack of God’s hand in something (like Satan…, not saying God’s hand wasn’t there to begin with, but that by choice, God’s love/influence is removed) would result in a total lack of Love/God/Good, ending up with what I just called “pure” evil.
I was using it as an expression. You’re right tho, taken literally, it implies that satan could be an equal to God, which he is NOT. So using the term pure evil is giving the devil too much credit.
I think when I use the term “pure” evil, I mean it more as in “For evils sake and evils sake alone”.
Some people just do bad things because they are bad. That’s reason enough…you see?
I think it’s rare, but I do believe that some people know that what they are doing is as evil as it gets, and for some reason get a thrill out of being “bad to the bone”…
Yeah, that makes sense MK. I sometimes tend to take things too literally.
Bobby: Part of the problem with the idea of pure evil is that one of the attributes of God is that he encompasses everything, and if there is such a thing as pure evil, it seems he would encompass that too.
Bobby, I’m not sure what you mean by “encompasses”
mk: 1:19: I was using it as an expression. You’re right tho, taken literally, it implies that satan could be an equal to God, which he is NOT. So using the term pure evil is giving the devil too much credit.
IMO, and I think I agree with mk on part of this, I see Satan as totally void of any good and therefore pure evil – the personification of Evil. He has rejected God who is LOVE. He is not a God per say, but a complete absence of God.
Satan wants to be on equal ground God and there are people who want to believe he is, but we know he will never be. I don’t think we can take this for granted (His Man will agree) we must pray, pray, pray, pray. Satan hates prayer.
Just thought of something else, and then I have to run….God says we must “bear witness” to him. I think this is one of the ways we keep evil out of the world. We must choose one or the other. Simplistic, maybe, but makes sense when talking about the influence of Satan and evil.
Janet,
I think what Bobby is saying is that nothing is PURE evil, because God created everything. Even satan isn’t purely evil. He is totally lacking in Godliness, yes, but he is still a creation of God, so his evil is “impure”
To say he is PURE evil, is to imply that his evilness is equivalent to God’s goodness, which it is not.
God is pure good.
Satan is good turned bad, but he is not pure bad. Does that make sense?
Or try this.
Satans evil is touched by God’s good.
But God’s good cannot be touched by satans evil…
Pope tells Protestants, Orthodox, let us bear witness in love,
Or try this.
Satans evil is touched by God’s good.
But God’s good cannot be touched by satans evil…
Posted by: mk at July 14, 2008 2:52 PM
I’d have to think about it. Hmm.. Catechism, anyone? :)
See you later!
Janet,
OK, let’s see here… I think what I mean is that because God is perfect, he lacks nothing. So he has [perfect] charity, justice, mercy, etc. These are some of his attributes, some of the qualities that describe God. But if he lacks NOTHING, and evil is SOMETHING, then he has evil; he is evil.
So I suppose that is what I mean by encompasses something, that it is one of his attributes.
I also agree with what MK said above to you Janet. I do agree that there is no good in Satan (I think Jesus said something along those lines??), but I want to say that a complete lack of good does not imply pure evil, although I’m at a bit of a loss as to how to justify that. Again, I think what MK said is on the right track… I’ll read up on this tonight. God love you.
I found this on newadvent.org (Catholic Encyclopedia). It claims that
“In the light of Catholic doctrine, any theory that may be held concerning evil must include certain points bearing on the question that have been authoritatively defined. These points are
* the omnipotence, omniscience, and absolute goodness of the Creator;
* the freedom of the will; and
* that suffering is the penal consequence of wilful disobedience to the law of God.”
I was thinking earlier that the depth of what we (MK, Janet and I) have been discussing hasn’t been defined by the church, so that it is open to theological speculation, which the above quote seems to support. I think we would all agree with the above, and our theories are consistent with the above. So I don’t know if there is an answer this side of eternity.
Also from newadvent.org, this articulates what I was trying to say a lot better
“A complete account may be gathered from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, by whom the principles of St. Augustine are systematized, and to some extent supplemented. Evil, according to St. Thomas, is a privation, or the absence of some good which belongs properly to the nature of the creature. (I,Q. xiv, a. 10; Q. xlix, a. 3; Contra Gentiles, III, ix, x). There is therefore no “summum malum”, or positive source of evil, corresponding to the “summum bonum”, which is God (I, Q. xlix, a. 3; C. G., III, 15; De Malo, I, 1); evil being not “ens reale” but only “ens rationis”–i.e. it exists not as an objective fact, but as a subjective conception; things are evil not in themselves, but by reason of their relation to other things, or persons. All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil if fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found (I, Q. xlix; cf. I, Q. v, 3; De Malo, I, 3). Thus the Manichaean dualism has no foundation in reason.”
mk —
It just doesn’t seem fair that He gave it to me, but others are still blind.
Ha, I have to figure that if there is a God then when I die the only thing He can say to me is, “Thanks for not lying and saying you believed in me.”
Thank you for sharing your story. It reminded me of part of a song by one of my favorite artists, in which he’s talking about all the ways he wants the listener to remember him. At one point he says, “Please remember me, my misery, and how it lost me all I wanted.” I always like that part because I feel like too often we cling to the things that make us miserable because we think they’re as close as we can get to the things we actually want — and of course it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, because the fact that we cling so resolutely to our own misery is the reason we can’t have the things we really want.
I try to remember that whenever I feel like there isn’t a good choice to make. A while back I had a steady job at a corporate investment firm (not as an investment banker but working in another capacity within the company) and it made me really unhappy. I was really scared to leave it because I kept thinking, “How will I save up money to someday buy a house? What if I don’t find another job? What will I do if I quit?” But finally I left it for freelancing in my current industry, and I’m so much happier. I almost never wake up dreading the workday, and I make more money on top of it anyway — and, depending on the time of year, I have more free time. I have the things I wanted to have at this point in my life, and I’m working towards the things I want to have in the future, and I could never have had any of it if I had clung to the reliable paycheck (and equally reliable misery) of the investment firm job.
I mean obviously that’s not my eternal soul or anything, so it’s not as dramatic an example as yours. ;) But I try to remember those lyrics whenever I feel like I’m stuck with no way out. Why am I accepting my own misery as the best life I can achieve? Are the worst possible consequences of trying to change any worse than living my whole life without trying to change? etc.
Anyway, MK, I should have proofread that before hitting submit, but my point is that I’m glad that you were able to achieve the happiness you wanted, even if you didn’t always know it was what you wanted. :)
Bobby: 3:17: Also from newadvent.org, this articulates what I was trying to say a lot better
“A complete account may be gathered from the teaching of St. Thomas Aquinas, by whom the principles of St. Augustine are systematized, and to some extent supplemented. Evil, according to St. Thomas, is a privation, or the absence of some good which belongs properly to the nature of the creature. (I,Q. xiv, a. 10; Q. xlix, a. 3; Contra Gentiles, III, ix, x). There is therefore no “summum malum”, or positive source of evil, corresponding to the “summum bonum”, which is God (I, Q. xlix, a. 3; C. G., III, 15; De Malo, I, 1); evil being not “ens reale” but only “ens rationis”–i.e. it exists not as an objective fact, but as a subjective conception; things are evil not in themselves, but by reason of their relation to other things, or persons. All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil if fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found (I, Q. xlix; cf. I, Q. v, 3; De Malo, I, 3). Thus the Manichaean dualism has no foundation in reason.”
Thanks, Bobby. That’s pretty heavy stuff! So, Satan (the fallen angel, right?) was created by God, so is not pure evil. Makes sense.
I have trouble with the last part of “All realities (entia) are in themselves good; they produce bad results only incidentally; and consequently the ultimate cause of evil if fundamentally good, as well as the objects in which evil is found.”
Just to clarify, does Manichaean dualism say there is pure good and pure evil?
Alexandra,
Actually your first post was great. That’s exactly how it was. You can’t imagine living a different way so you don’t even try.
And while my story might ‘sound’ dramatic, it really is no more dramatic than so many others. Everybody has a story. To them, things seem dramatic. They’re living it, after all.
I think it was so much dramatic as clear cut. Obvious. Which I’m way grateful for. I’m not the type of person that likes to just float. Very goal oriented. If the whole conversion had taken place in dribs and drabs, I might have lost interest in it. I know better now, but then it was all about whatever was shiniest…
And don’t worry. You might be closer to seeing things than you think. You aren’t always aware of the changes taking place in your soul. I wasn’t.
Then you wake up one day, and everything just sort of falls into place.
It could happen…
Janet,
I think that the sentence you bolded can be illustrated as follows. Consider fornication. Loving someone, desiring to be closer to someone, wanting to share yourself with someone, and certain other reasons that people engage in sex is good. Sex in itself is good; it’s holy. So when people fornicate, we can say in a sense that it is good (let me finish!) because sex is good and people can engage in it for good reasons.
However, in the case of fornication, it is a disordered good. Your desire for loving someone is good, but expressing it in sex outside of marriage is disordered. And sex is good, but ripped out of its proper context, it becomes something evil. That might be an illustration of the privation; the privation is marriage. One thing that is keeping that act of fornication from being good is the privation of marriage.
In this sense then, the cause of the evil act of fornication is the good act of sex. Because sex is holy, sex can never be called evil. But in the sense I described above, the act of fornication would be described as evil.
That’s at least the way I understand it. I could be very wrong.
@Bobby 7:18pm yes this is how I understand evil as well
every thing created is good (hence during creation the Bible states “And God saw that it was good…”)
From (the great)Fr Hardons Modern Catholic Dictionary:
Evil: “The privation of a good that should be present. It is the lack of a good that essentially belongs to a nature; the absence of good that is natural and good to a being. Evil is therefore the absence of what ought to be there.”
I wonder if the idea that evil is a privation is de fide? I’m going to check Ott. Back after dinner.
So the short answer to your question is “I had my conversion on a toilet”. Which is where my life was at the time. God DOES have a sense of humor.
Posted by: mk at July 14, 2008 11:01 AM
Wow! i never heard your story either. Ain’t the above true.
Fr Corapi was in a ditch – right at the bottom of his life. So the toilet thing I can totally believe!
My daughter went on a retreat here in Canada and the fellow who came to talk to them about his conversion from an ancient pagan/occult/wiccan rite.
Some freaky experiences led to his conversion into the Catholic faith.
“I wonder if the idea that evil is a privation is de fide? I’m going to check Ott. Back after dinner.”
Yeah, I got nothin…
Patricia,
Yeah, wicca is pretty insidious.
mk: Not to get too personal, but is wicca a lot more common than we’d expect? How many people did you know living like that?
Bobby, According to this, privation and deprivation mean the same thing. Isn’t that odd!
Main Entry:
pri
MK,
You are a real inspiration. God Bless you.
Bobby:7:18:
I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to ignore your answer on privation. It makes much more sense now. Thank you! What would we do without the Doctors of the Church? I mean, really! Maybe you’ll be named one some day! :)
A long time ago my wife and her friends used a Ouija board and they lit candles and were asking questions to the spirits. When they were asking the questions the candles got really bright, and the questions were being answered. Her mother threw the board away the next day and she never used it again. Bad stuff.
Janet,
I think a lot of people follow wiccan ideas without actually being wiccan.
Most new age thinking is wiccan. Astrology. Herbs. Acupuncture. Reflexology. Reiki. Yoga.
Not truly wiccan, but of the same ideology. Pagan.
Wiccans don’t believe in satan. They believe in a god and a goddess. A horned god. Which is where we get the horned devil from. We call their horned god satan (because anything that doesn’t recognize God as God, comes from satan), they say satan doesn’t exist.
They are NOT satanists. And would be very offended if you implied that they were. Not because they don’t like satan, but because they don’t acknowledge him as real.
Wicca today is really a homogenized mess of all sorts of stuff. You’d be hard pressed to define it.
Feminists are often followers. And yes it is MUCH more prevalent than you think. Not very organized, but the beliefs are very popular.
Moons, stars, pentacles, crystals, tarot, astrology, anything occult, palm reading, magic/magik…
It’s funny tho, because what is called wicca today is sort of made up. More like “Playing” at being witches.
The males call themselves warlocks which is a word that was made up for the TV show bewitched. People will buy into anything, it seems.
Go into any feminist bookstore and you’ll find wiccan books. The Lilith fair…Even Oprah’s new age mumbo jumbo along with Madonnas kabbalism can be traced back to a fascination with witchcraft.
A sure sign that you’re dealing with new age thinking is when someone says “I don’t belong to a religion, but I’m very spiritual”…
I don’t mean to offend anyone or their beliefs. I promise. But this is what I saw when I was in the movement.
Type Wicca into your search engine. You could read for hours. You’ll find groups and schools and stores. If you familiarize yourself with wiccan “tools”, you’ll see that it is everywhere.
Just go to a Renaissance fair. The place is loaded with wiccans. Just about everything you buy there is wiccan related.
MK,
So if I take a yoga class, I’m engaging in paganism?
E,
It depends. Yoga is actually a Hindu religious practice. Some yogi brought it over here in the sixties to get people into Hinduism. Don’t ask me his name, but he was tight with John Lennon, I believe.
If you are just practicing it for the physical benefit you’re probably okay. But if you’re reciting a mantra as you practice, I’d say you were walking a fine line….
The history of modern yoga began with the Parliament of Religions held in Chicago in 1893. Modern yoga arrived in the United States during the late 1800’s. It was at this congress that Swami Vivekananda, a disciple of saint Ramakrishna, made a lasting impression on the American public. He addressed the gathering as, ‘Brothers and Sisters of America “. Through these words he captured millions of hearts in the United States and attracted many students to yoga and Vedanta.
After Swami Vivekananda, the next popular teacher in the west was Paramahansa Yogananda, who arrived in Boston in 1920. He established the self-realization fellowship in Los Angeles. He left his mortal frame in 1952; but continues to have a world wide following. He wrote the famous “Autobiography of a Yogi”. His teachings are called the yogoda teachings.
Paul Brunton, a former journalist-editor and author of the famous book, “A Search in Secret India’, introduced Ramana Maharishi to western seekers.
Since the early 1930’s and till his death in 1986, Jiddu Krishnamurthy attracted western minds with his philosophical thoughts. He expounded the wisdom of Jnana yoga and drew large gatherings. He has followers all over the world.
In the mid_1960’s, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi introduced Transcendental Meditation to the west. He was associated with the Beatles.
http://www.medindia.net/Yoga-Lifestyle/yoga-history-modernyoga.htm
E,
Here is an article that explains why Yoga is incompatible with the Catholic Church…
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0275.html
Well, MK, I am thinking about getting into an exercise class, and yoga is good for me because of stretching and stuff, and I’ve read A LOT about how yoga/exercise help with anxiety. So that would be my main reason to try it, because exercise helps with anxiety. I’m trying to help my anxiety the good old natural way..they wanted to put me on some anti-depressant medication, but I’m not freaking depressed, so I won’t take it. Stupid doctors. I wouldn’t recite any sort of mantra, except, RELAX. lol.
Just go to a Renaissance fair. The place is loaded with wiccans. Just about everything you buy there is wiccan related.
Posted by: mk at July 14, 2008 9:54 PM
That is so bizarre. I’ve seen the ads on TV. It that common knowledge?????? Do children go and are they aware of what is going on?
What about the newer TV show – Charmed. Was that realistic at all?
to show you how easy it is to fall into tarot cards, ouija boards and how these things start when a person is very young and naive etc:
A few years back one of my friends had a daughter being prepared for First Holy Communion by a priest from the Eastern Rite. After hearing the children’s First Confession, the talk the next day at the First Communion Service was on the occult!
The reason: every child who showed up for confession (with the exception of my friends daughter – a homeschooler!) mentioned the above 2 practices!
The priest took considerable time explaining the dangers to the parents through the homily. He felt it was the only way he could reach these parents and their children!
I can say, as a librarian that many libraries have tons of books on wicca, the occult, spells, new age, yoga etc. These books don’t seem to be taken out alot – it’s probably a small subset of people who use them. Nevertheless this crap is easily available to anyone.
Wait, why are yoga and acupuncture pagan? Is cupping pagan too? I work with athletes from Korea and a lot of them do regular acupuncture treatments, and some of them (the ones with tendencies towards back/shoulder pain) do cupping. I thought it was a bunch of crap, but it seems to help them, physically. I also know a (non-Korean) guy who got hit by a car and has found far more physical relief from cupping than from “normal” medical advice.
Are foot massages pagan? I mean, lots of people think that various points on the foot can affect pain in other parts of the body, and isn’t that the main idea behind acupuncture?
I have a hard time understanding why stretching and breathing are pagan. I think it would be like, God gave me this body, and I am going to take good care of it. Just because yoga has non-Christian roots doesn’t mean that it’s currently anti-Christian. That’s like saying that rock music is anti-Christian because rock music was not explicitly Christian when it came about. Sure, you can get some profanity-laden scream band, and you can get a cheesy yoga teacher who thinks everyone is their own god or whatever. But you can also have rock music that’s entirely neutral or even Christian, and I don’t really see why the same isn’t true for a series of stretches that are quite good for your body.
I found a really great yoga class near my apartment and it doesn’t touch on anything religious. The closest the guy comes is telling us not to get angry with our bodies when they can’t do things as well as we want them to, but to just accept them and enjoy what they are capable of doing, and to work through their limitations at the pace at which they are most comfortable.
Elizabeth, I have really found yoga beneficial. I am pretty flexible because I was a serious ballet dancer for most of my life, but I notice benefits beyond flexibility. My posture is better, I have less lower back pain, I am much less stressed out by small things, etc. The specific class/teacher you find makes a big difference, but I leave my current classes feeling the way I wish I felt after a good night’s sleep. Sometimes I’m lazy and don’t want to go, but I’m always glad I did afterwards.
Patricia,
That’s because our country does not believe in censoring our books from our citizens.
Edyt: I was not complaining about that – except that taxpayer money could be better spent.
I well realize that censorship could lead to Catholic and Christian books being removed (which has been done in some Canadian libraries).
As I stated, the wicca and occult trash doesn’t circulate much and fortunately eventually gets weeded!
Alexandra,
Thanks! I used to be a dancer too! My brother was on Joffrey for 2 years and is now moving on to Milwaukee Ballet! I do like yoga because of all the stretching! I haven’t stretched in a while so it would be nice to work on that again!
Y’know- when I was in DBT, they used a lot of “eastern” thought to teach us crazy folk to relax and to clear our minds and to practice meditation to gain control over our emotions and negative thoughts.
Yoga was also promoted as a method of meditation and relaxation- not because it’s “religious”- but because it helps you focus and center yourself and calm down your emotions.
The only person I’ve ever known to use yoga religiously was my friend Indraneel- who is Hindu and he did yoga every morning as a method of prayer and as a way to focus himself for the day.
And for the record- I messed with astrology and tarot cards for funsies as a young teen- never believed the stuff, but it was fun to screw with my friends.
E (etal),
As I said, if you are careful and use Yoga strictly as a physical exercise, you should be okay.
The reason it falls into the pagan category is that it is meant as a spiritual exercise, as a way to detach yourself from yourself.
If I told you that there was a new method of relaxation and that you had to face east, prostrate yourself on the ground and say Allah is great over and over and over…you’d recognize that as Islamic prayer.
If I told you that you could skip the Allah is Great part, you’d probably still recognize that what you were doing is a Muslim ritual.
Or if I told you that you could go to mass for the psychological benefits, but didn’t need to believe you’d probably think I was nuts.
In essence, this is what yoga is. It is a spiritual exercise in a religion. Period.
The spiritual aspect has been disguised or removed, but at heart, it is still a religious practice.
As for acupuncture…that one is trickier. Are there pressure points that are associated with bodily functions. I would say probably. But the reason it is believed that acupuncture works is that it works with chakras. Putting the body into harmony by manipulating it’s “spiritual” connections.
Same with Rieki (I don’t know if I’m spelling that right).
It’s just best to be careful, research, talk to your teacher/leader/practitioner, and make sure that it is strictly a physical exercise.
I’m certainly not telling everyone to stop their yoga classes, quit their acupuncture and boycott your reflexologist! Just be aware of what these practices are at heart, where they came from and the potential dangers if you were to buy into the spiritual aspects of them.
Rae!!! Yay!!
Carla, I considered “shared belief in God” to fit into “family values.”
I didn’t. I voted “Other”. Because the closer you each get to God, the closer you get to each other.
Now, in hindsight, I can see that I was bound to my desires. If you had asked me at the time if I was doing anything wrong, I would have answered with a vehement NO! I’m not hurting anyone, and I’m having an awful lot of fun.
I wasn’t seeking to change. I wasn’t suffering from guilt. When God intervened, I wasn’t asking for help.
Doug would probably say I imagined the whole thing. But for that to be so, I would have need to “desire” it in the first place. And trust me, I didn’t.
MK, I would say you wanted different things, to an extent, whether you were consciously pining after them or not.