Weekend question
I’m a day early, but I’m not able to post today. My husband, brother, and I flew to Albuquerque yesterday afternoon to help my Dad move back home to IN. We’re now driving a U-Haul truck and his car cross country. So this will be my only post today, and the moderators are in charge!
So on to the question….
The goal of much of the pro-life movement for 35 years has been to overturn Roe v. Wade. Most actions by some groups have been toward this end.
With the election of Barack Obama, however, that strategy is off the table for the next 2-3 decades. As I stated in my column yesterday, Obama will have the opportunity to nominate at least 2-3 young Supreme Court justices, who will assuredly support Roe, and he has a Senate majority to affirm his picks. So Roe’s future is anchored for 20-30 years. That prize is gone for us, gone.
In a way, I feel freed and dare I say energized by this development for several reasons. I had a talk yesterday with a very high pro-life Republican official on Capitol Hill.
This insider affirmed what we all know already. Many, if not most, supposedly pro-life congresspersons are phonies, users. Then the insider added:
But ¾ of pro-abortion politicians here are phonies too, just because they want Planned Parenthood’s money and volunteers. They become weak on their issue when they see it’s not in their best interest.
Advice from the insider?
Don’t worry about Washington. They all want to play the game between the 45 yard lines. Let’s make progress where we live. Let’s take care of abortionists and mills where we live – pray at the mills, regulate them out of business, take away their clientele.
The insider also advised that we make a stronger pitch to explain abortion hurts women:
Most Americans think abortion is wrong, but they don’t want to stop it because they think doing so would hurt women. When they understand abortion devastates and exploits women, they’ll change their minds. When they understand the abortion industry is only in it for the money and could care less about women, even despises them, they’ll change their minds.
This means we all take responsibility to pray and picket at the abortion mill closest to us. We all work to pass local and state legislation – informed consent (i.e., “women’s right to know”), or abortion clinic regulations that raise the standards of mills to those of animal clinics, most of which are not.
I’m talking about a major paradigm shift in the thinking of many pro-lifers and organizations about how to stop abortion. I’m not saying abandon federal efforts and electing federal pro-life politicians. In fact, the insider also advised:
On the federal level now we can’t pass anything. But we can stop stuff.
The Republican Party is all about the Chamber of Commerce. The Democrat Party is all about the AFLCIO.
That means we have to find pro-lifers who are going to challenge every Republican and Democrat who are not pro-life and keep harassing them in primary elections. Do everything we can do to get them out of office, not necessarily running against them on the Life issue but running against them on anything that will work. There is zero difference between a pro-abortionist and a Nazi.
Bottom line: The pro-life movement must shift its primary focus off of overturning Roe v. Wade and develop a sense of personal responsibility to stop abortion where we live, including teaching in the churches, as my column yesterday indicated.
The simple question: Thoughts?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
This is a multi-pronged plan of action.
More feet are going to be held to the fire, to be sure.
I’ve already spoken to you, Jill, about my intended effort here in little ole Central Florida.
Can’t wait. This is going to be fun.
We are trying to change culture at the wrong end.
Morality cannot be legislated.
We have been concentrating on the political end. We can’t change people’s opinion with laws.
Take a lesson from the cultural war on homosexuality. They are fighting in the trenches that actually change the culture: NPR, CNN, YAHOO, All levels of the media, CEO’S of the Educational System, Teachers on all levels. The University level of education is especially vulnerable. They infiltrate all kinds of society, starting with our religious system and ending with our educational system.
IT’S HOW YOU ARE RAISED!
Remember when “being politically correct” became popular? We must make it politically correct to be PRO-LIFE.
You are right to point out how the women are hurt by abortion.
You are right to point out how the people of color are hurt. Look up the opinion of MLK’s niece on the matter.
You are right to point out the horrible murder of our babies. Show the public the pictures. Fight for the right to show the pictures. Show how monstrous we are to choose to abort our babies because we choose.
Point out that the next persons to be killed are the elderly or the handicapped because they are INCONVENIENT.
EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE.
Jill, I couldn’t agree more. As Mother Teresa once said, “We are not called to be successful, but to be faithful”. As long as we INDIVIDUALLY continue to make a sincere best effort, what the rest of the world does is only a side issue.
Joan, you make some good points, but you are not entirely correct to say that “morality cannot be legislated”. It is true that legislation cannot change people’s hearts, but every single criminal law in this land is based on morality, there is no reason other than morality to outlaw certain acts.
And as Dr. Martin Luther King once said: ““Morality cannot be legislated, but behavior can be regulated. Judicial decrees may not change the heart, but they can restrain the heartless”.”
We’ve tried this to some extent in Canada and it hasn’t worked. HOWEVER, Americans have their First Amendment rights which are VERY important and I think will protect you. We can’t picket nor counsel outside clinics in Canada but you CAN!
Secondly, as I told Carla yesterday, women who have had abortions are very important to stopping abortion. They KNOW what is was like – they’ve suffered and they’ve got the dead baby and sometimes the physical scars to prove it. The biggest myth the abortion industry has working for them today is that abortion is SAFE – that it is free from any consequences and that women who do experience regret had problems before they had the abortion. We need to demonstrate to them that they are wrong. These women and men who stand up and make themselves extremely vulnerable in this way are going to need alot of support because they are going to be viciously attacked. And the other side will present women who will counter their claims.
Be prepared too, to have those who have the power to try to do everything to limit your ability to speak and give the message.
We can’t discount our biggest weapon – prayer which as we’ve seen here, many a liberal scoff at.(Remember Satan’s cry: I am legion!)
I completely agree with the Washington insider. I think it’s likely most politicians are corrupt – in the sense of morally corrupt. They are looking out for number one. The change must come from the bottom up. A massive change of heart in society which eventually will move to the politicians.
anon was me, if you can’t tell by now!!
And now for the reality question to Jill.
You were used by President Bush and the Republican party , as a tool for votes, Jill.
You may phrase it another way Jill, but even PBA was ignored in the end.
When did you personally know that Bush was another politician, influenced more by his wife on life issues then you, or millions of pro lifers who voted for Bush, and the fraud he foisted on pro lifers.
Harriet Miers?
So, hoping you have no financial ties to the phony Republican aristocrats, who have used the votes of pro lifers since Reagan, and hoping you can speak the truth.
Sounds like a tough road for National Right to Life, yes?
This Washington insider isn’t saying anything new. The Lila Roses, the Jill Staneks, Students For Life, Rock For Life, Survivor Tours… YOUNG PEOPLE and grassroots organizations who engage folks in the street, on campuses, and the new media are the ones gaining ground in educating and converting those who are still on the fence.
The thing to remember is that, we have to take what we can get.
But we should not loose faith, we can still make a difference and we can pray. We should pray for our President, he can have a change of heart, they all can. Just depends on whether it’s God’s will.
You have done a great deed Jill, so keep it up, and turn your goals from Washington, and turn to the people.
You are absolutely correct in that. BUT we still have to vote for pro life politicians as well. You have to research their vote records..since elections are over, we now move back to educating…
So true..I had already decided that my focus is shifting on educating people why they should choose life and as a post abortive woman telling my story. We have been too quiet or too long. Abortion does hurt women and our society is way too complacent. I love the idea of going to the abortion mills. For me though I am deciding to teach kids in churches and wherever I can about abortion. This way I will have more than the one or two minutes to catch a young woman when she is already walking into her appointment…
You may phrase it another way, but even BAIPA was ignored in the end.
Allena I agree. We must use all avenues open to use. I am sure there are some politicians who are solidly prolife. We will know because these are the ones that will stand their ground and work for us in the trenches.
Also, the Christian churches need to work together. We need to get these clergy and ministers out there and pushing the prolife message from the pulpit. They need to be proactive – having events at their churches which promote the culture of life and which educate the young to give them the tools to stand up for their beliefs in a sea of rhetoric.
My eldest girl had a debate with a classmate this week who actually asserted that it was worse to be adopted than aborted! This is what the arguing point came down to. A 16 year old girl in a Catholic school has this view. Uncroyable!
Here’s an interesting development, reported on the CNN website: “Judge rules frozen embryos are people”
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/02/23/colb.embryos/index.html
Doyle, that’s from three years ago. It is interesting, but unfortunately, its not current.
Abortion is especiallly devastating to blacks.
We must focus on the black church.
Most Americans are opposed to abortion ?
How do you know that? It’s impossible to know exactly how many are for or against
reproductive rights. But I know that are very large number believe in a woman’s right to choose, although many are deeply conflicted about it.
Abortion hurts women? And when the government doesn’t allow it women aren’t hurt ? Come on now.
Since Roe v Wade only a tiny handful of women have died from legal abortions,
and thousands died before it from illegal ones, or nearly died, and were left infertile. And even today, thousands of women die from botched illegal or self-induced abortions every year in poor countries which prohibit it.
And because of the Bush administration’s stupidity in denying help to poor nations which desperately need contraception, thousands of poor women have died. This criminal administration has blood on its hands. Good riddance, George W, you may not have actual evil intentions, but you’ve done untold damage and harm to America and the world.
Robert Berger
Those countries need CLEAN water, health foods, and real medicines to combat diseases. They don’t need more contraception and abortion.
I am pretty sure Christina from the Realchoice blog/site can give us a list of more than a “tiny handful” of women who have died from LEGAL abortion.
And because of the Bush administration’s stupidity in denying help to poor nations which desperately need contraception, thousands of poor women have died
Posted by: Robert Berger at November 7, 2008
Actually dude, if things are that bad in a nation, they should be funded to have a revolution and destroy the government that has made them that poor, that they murder their own.
Why, even communism would be a choice in such a nation, where the government has such poverty. But, that is not going to happen, since communist hate their citizens more then capitalist nations and make famines destroy those poor commrades amongst them.
Better to die fighting a government that makes you soo poor that you murder your own, then live like a coward waiting in line for that poverty eliminating abortion you preach for dude.
Eventually, people like you will be caught up in your hate for life, and be consumed by all that legal murder you spread to those poor people you want to murder their own.
Or, what’s it to ya that people are poor dude?
Afraid, as all despots are, that those poors will take your head of, and hoist you on your own petard Robert, the flunky for the rich and arrogant?
Why Robert, I bet abortion is rare when the change of revolution is in the air.
That’s the last time I’ll murder my own from poverty and that time is coming Robert.
Keep preaching down to those poors, Robert.
I bet Robert Berger is a Republican.
Republicans want to eliminate the poor’s by abortion, as much as the Democrats do.
Ah, wait a minute, Robert is a Democrat, since Democrats want all taxpayers to pay for the murder of their own, while Republicans want to keep it amongst their rich friends in the legal murder of the poors, by making the poors pay for it outta their poor pocketbook.
Your a Democrat right, Robert?
“Abortion is especiallly devastating to blacks.
We must focus on the black church.
Posted by: HisMan at November 7, 2008 8:23 AM”
———————————————–
This is what boggles my mind…PP targets minorities and Black people, in general. And Obama is in bed with PP?
Shows you what his priorities are.
very constructive and mostly civil discussion. If only you hadn’t called us NAZI’s.
yllas,
Actually dude, if things are that bad in a nation, they should be funded to have a revolution and destroy the government that has made them that poor, that they murder their own.
Why, even communism would be a choice in such a nation, where the government has such poverty. But, that is not going to happen, since communist hate their citizens more then capitalist nations and make famines destroy those poor commrades amongst them.
Better to die fighting a government that makes you soo poor that you murder your own, then live like a coward waiting in line for that poverty eliminating abortion you preach for dude.
Excellent post.
(Sorry, I hit post before I commented @ 9:33. I’m not sure why the middle paragraph is italicized.)
We must educate but we must also continue to be politically involved.
The 2010 midterm elections present us with a golden opportunity to try to inflict a devastating defeat on the Democratic Party and the abortionists. Whatever else we do we must at the very least try to do that.
You were used by President Bush and the Republican party , as a tool for votes
When did you personally know that Bush was another politician, influenced more by his wife on life issues then you, or millions of pro lifers who voted for Bush, and the fraud he foisted on pro lifers.
So, hoping you have no financial ties to the phony Republican aristocrats, who have used the votes of pro lifers since Reagan, and hoping you can speak the truth.
Wow, yllas, what’d you do – take an extra pill today?
That’s a bit over the top, but I pretty much agree.
But, Hal, you are a Nazi, and the only part of Nazism that was worth continuing was abortion in a more broader sense, then just the one’s Hitler wanted to eliminate by abortion.
Sanger sang the praises of Hitler and enjoyed those moments with her philosophical soul mate.
But, when are you going to stop preying upon the poor and desperate needing legal services by seizing their homes for your greedy family?
What makes you worth more then that poor desperate family who offers up their homes in exchange for some contrived law or act they violated, which then becomes a legal method to take away what little material wealth they have? \
Have you no shame? Well actually you don’t, your a lawyer.
Done and done, Janet.
With the election of Barack Obama, however, that strategy is off the table for the next 2-3 decades. As I stated in my column yesterday, Obama will have the opportunity to nominate at least 2-3 young Supreme Court justices, who will assuredly support Roe, and he has a Senate majority to affirm his picks. So Roe’s future is anchored for 20-30 years. That prize is gone for us, gone.
Jill, I’m surprised to hear you say that. Aren’t the Justices that are likely to retire supportive of Roe, anyway? If so, Obama’s nominations wouldn’t alter the balance.
I wouldn’t doubt that Obama will be a one-term President, due to the economic situation, and looking out two to three decades at this point seems awfully pessimistic for you, IMO.
I can’t say how much churches teach about abortion. However I do agree with Stanek that virtually the entire focus of sex education in schools is really to teach students that they should use contraception.
Also, the future of the country is the immigrant population. Most immigrants have more children and are very receptive to pro life messages. Unfortunately they are poor and their kids are in public school.
Regardless of your abortion stance, honest folks can agree that public ed. in the US is failing to help the poor.
From working with immigrant students for many years, I can tell you that those who spent twelve full years in the public schools and were most assimilated into US culture were the least academically successful. While those who were here between five to seven years and did not assimilate into US culture were the most successful.
Basically poor folks who have a materialistic view of the world are damned discontented.
Whereas the poor who value their families more than immediate material gain ironically end up more academically successful as well as eventually much more materially successful.
Long term, demographers agree that beginning in about 2015 we will see a precipitous drop as the baby boomers pass away accelerating the decline in percentage of native born Americans compared to the younger 1st and 2nd generation Americans.
The most conservative Americans are increasingly removing their children from public schools in favor of private and homeschool education. The tend overwhelmingly to be pro life and just like the immigrant population will grow in number will grow in number as well as growing a percentage of the population.
Also, a growing trend is for conservative muslims to homeschool their daughters, with a heavy dose of hands on curriculum in the domestic arts.
Robert Berger 8:52am
The year prior to Roe the death rate from illegal abortion was at an all time low. Women were not dying by the thousands thanks to advances in sterile technique, antibiotic, and IV therapy. By the way the movement to legalize abortion deliberately lied about the death rate, and with a lapdog media, was able to spread this lie. Most illegal abortions were done in doctor’s offices by doctors who had to be very careful or face prison. Or else they were done in hospitals under false pretenses.
If anything, legalizing abortion opened the business up to the hacks, who could now legally hang a shingle. Unregulated clinics and assembly line abortions. We have this naive and stupid notion that legalizing an activity keeps out the criminal element. Almost always it only gives the criminal element a golden opportunity.
Hippie, very interesting post. Indeed, big changes are afoot.
Wow, yllas, what’d you do – take an extra pill today?
That’s a bit over the top, but I pretty much agree.
Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 9:42 AM
Ah, Doug, go take the last dollar of some poor in need of some heat to avoid dying from the cold.
As for my post to Jill.
It’s a honest question, and if she doesn’t answer it, I understand.
She has my total admiration in being a person that saw the death of a innocent human being, and was revolted by such acts of human beings towards another innocent, helpless, human being’s life.
But, what’s it to ya dude?
Afterall, no one here has a good argument against the legal murdering of innocent life according to your preaching for the death of innocent human life.
Your mind is closed and locked tight for the legal murder of innocent life.
And when asked if you would become a professional killer, and not a killing professional, you answered that you would perform a legal act of murder on innocent human life.
Jill saw the work of such professional killers and rebuked such acts by changing her life and costing her friends and material wealth.
Soo, dude, since Jill payed a price for her morality, and morality without sacrifice is just another empty piece of propaganda, worth as much as your words are Doug, what have you sacrificed for your morality and daily preaching for the legal murder of innocent life?
Some wine?
A trip to a foreign nation where you abuse the poor of that nation?
A dollar given to your favorite abortion clinic?
Tell us, what amount of wealth have you given for your public preaching for the death of innocent human life?
BTW, have you ever written a false word in matters of abortion Doug?
Jill,
Don’t give up yet. Obama has not actually been elected by the Electoral College. Obama may have beaten John McCain but now he must take on Philip Berg. Philip Berg is working hard and will fight hard. Join Berg’s grassroots movement to get Obama ousted as being ineligible.
http://www.obamacrimes.com
Liz 9:06am
An excellent point.
From a muslim site
http://www.jannah.org/articles/westernedu.html
On the internet, a sister raised in a Muslim country was writing about the wonderful freedoms of living in the US. Some Muslims seem to take the influence of an Islamic atmosphere for granted ; adhan being called at each prayer time, modestly dressed people, halal food the norm, everyone greeting with salaams, lack of crime, availability of Qur’anic teachers and people treating one another as brothers and sisters in Islam, as being an influence in their upbringing. The importance of this environment on a young Muslims’s mind can not be replaced by the material advantages of living in a western country. The Western society teaches children by exposure that the norm of society is high crime, alcohol, fornication, high divorce rate, teenage pregnancies, deviant sexual practices, immodest clothing, putting individual desires over societal needs, lack of morals and charity, etc. According to Dr. Shahid Athar in “Sex Education: An Islamic Perspective”, children in America are exposed to 9,000 sexual scenes per year through the media and on television . Even now in public schools children are taught that homosexuality is an acceptable alternative form of family life.
I agree w/ doug that the judges likely to be replaced are the liberals, so all may not be lost.
Sonograms. Sonograms.
We offer sonograms. seeing a baby wiggle is true and real.
Then ask a question. Why would the abortion clinic not let you have and see a sonogram?
Insurance covers sonograms. Girls that see their own baby in a sonogram get cold feet on abortions.
As the word gets out that abortionists do not give you a choice of seeing a sonogram before committing, that says something.
go take the last dollar of some poor in need of some heat to avoid dying from the cold.
Now yllas…. and here I thought you were actually somewhat rational today.
…..
no one here has a good argument against the legal murdering
This is you once again lying and pretending. This silliness is according to you, not to me and not to most people on this board.
…..
have you ever written a false word in matters of abortion Doug?
Not willingly, but sure – I’ve been incorrect on matters of fact once in a while, and Bethany, Mary, Valerie, MK, etc., have at times brought that fact to my attention.
Philip Berg from http://www.obamacrimes.com is interviewed on Faith 2 Action by Janet Porter the day after the Election.
Listen and spread far and wide!
http://f2a.org/radio/Download%202008-11-05.htm
James, still worshipping Saint Hormel, I see.
“IN THE WOMB” — National Geographic Special about the development of an unborn baby.
And 3D and 4D ultrasound technology – this shows even more detail. I have the BABY STEPS DVD from American Life League with actual 3D and 4D images from as young as 8 weeks after conception to as late as in the 20ish weeks (like 22 or 24).
And I can tell ya, its not TISSUE or a BLOOD CLOT on the screen.
Hymn to Hitler … a “MUST READ”!!
BY: Lori Kalner – Lori’s father was a pastor
In Germany, when Hitler came to power, it was a time of terrible financial depression. Money was worth nothing. In Germany people lost homes and jobs, just like in the American Depression in the 1930s, which we have read about in Thoene’s Shiloh books.
In those days, in my homeland, Adolph Hitler was elected to power by promising ‘Change.’
He blamed the ‘Zionists’ around the world for all our problems. He told everyone it was greedy Zionist Bankers who had caused every problem we had. He promised when he was leader, the greedy Zionist bankers would be punished. The Zionists, he promised, would be wiped off the face of the earth.
So Hitler was elected to power by only 1/3 the popular vote. A coalition of other political parties in parliament made him supreme leader. Then, when he was leader, he disgraced and expelled everyone in parliament who did not go along with him. Yes, Change came to my homeland as the new leader promised it would.
The teachers in German schools began to teach the children to sing songs in praise of Hitler. This was the beginning of the Hitler Youth movement. It began with praise of the Fuhrer’s programs on the lips of innocent children. Hymns in praise of Hitler and his programs were being sung in the schoolrooms and in the play yard. Little girls and boys joined hands and sang these songs as they walked home from school.
My brother came home and told Papa what was happening at school. The political hymns of children proclaimed Change was coming to our homeland and the Fuhrer was a leader we could trust.
I will never forget my father’s face. Grief and fear. He knew that the best propaganda of the Nazis was song on the lips of little children.
That evening before he said grace at the dinner table, he placed his hands upon the heads of my brothers and me and prayed the Living Word upon us from Jeremiah 1:4-5.
‘Now the Word of the Lord came to me, saying,
‘Before I formed you in the
womb I knew you,
and before you were born I
consecrated you;
I appointed you a prophet to
The nations.’
Soon the children’s songs praising the Fuhrer were heard everywhere on the streets and over the radio. ‘With our Fuhrer to lead us, we can do it! We can change the world!”
Soon after that Papa, a pastor, was turned away from visiting elderly parishioners in hospitals. The people he had come to bring comfort of God’s Word, were ”no longer there.”
Where had they vanished to, while under nationalized health care? It became an open secret. The elderly and sick began to disappear from hospitals feet first as ‘mercy killing’ became the policy. Children with disabilities and those who had Down syndrome were euthanized.
People whispered, ”Maybe it is better for them now. Put them out of misery. They are no longer suffering. And, of course, their death is better for the treasury of our nation. Our taxes no longer must be spent to care for such a burden.”
And so murder was called mercy.
The government took over private business. Industry and health care were ”nationalized.” (NA-ZI means National Socialist Party) The businesses of all Jews were seized. (Perhaps you remember our story in Berlin on Krystalnacht in the book Munich Signature.)
The world and God’s word were turned upside down. Hitler promised the people economic Change?
Not change. It was, rather, Lucifer’s very ancient Delusion leading to Destruction.
What began with the propaganda of children singing a catchy tune ended in the deaths of millions of children. The reality of what came upon us is so horrible that you in this present generation cannot imagine it.
Our suffering is too great to ever tell in a book or show in a black and white newsreel.
When I spoke to Bodie about some of these things, she wept and said she could not bear to write them. Perhaps one day she will, but I asked her, ”who could bear to read our suffering?”
Yet with my last breaths I warn every Christian and Jew now, in the name of the Lord, Unless your course of the church in America is spiritually changed now, returning to the Lord, there are new horrors yet to come.
I trembled last night when I heard the voices of American children raised in song, praising the name of Obama, the charismatic fellow who claims he is the American Messiah.
Yet I have heard what this man Obama says about abortion and the ‘mercy killing’ of tiny babies who are not wanted.
There are so few of us left to warn you.
I have heard that there are 69 million Catholics in America and 70 million Evangelical Christians. Where are your voices? Where is your outrage? Where is passion and your vote? Do you vote based on an abortionist’s empty promises and economics? Or do you vote according to the Bible?
Thus says the Lord about every living child still in the womb.
‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.”
I have experienced the signs of the politics of Death in my youth. I see them again now.
Christians! Unless you stand up now, you will lose your freedom of religion.
In America, priests and preachers have already lost their freedom to speak openly from their pulpits of moral danger in political candidates. They cannot legally instruct you of which candidate holds fast to the precepts of scripture! American law forbids this freedom of speech to conservative pastors or they will lose their ‘tax exempt’ status.
And yet I have heard the words of Obama’s pastor Damning America! I have heard the words of Obama damning and mocking all of you in small towns because you ”Cling to your religion.”
But I am a woman whose name is unknown. My life is recorded as a work of fiction. I have no fear of reprisal when I speak truth to you from the pages of a book. (Though the Zion Covenant books are mocked and condemned by the Left in America .)
I am an old woman and will soon go to be with my Lord. I have no fear for myself, but for all of you and for your children, I tremble.
I tremble at the hymns to a political leader which your children will sing at school. (Though even now a hymn or a prayer to God and our Lord Jesus is against the law in public school!)
I pray you will personally heed this warning for the sake of your children and your grandchildren. Do not be deceived. The Lord in Jeremiah 1:7-8 commands every believer to speak up!
“Do not say, ‘I am only a youth, for to all whom I send you, you shall go, and whatever I command you, you shall speak. Do not be afraid of them for I am with you’, declares the Lord!”
I am in Prayer for you, and for the Church!
Spoken to you in the authority of Jesus the Christ,
the Name Above All Names,
Lori Kalner
Doug- HEY! My dad works for Hormel! Spam pays our bills! Don’t knock the Hormel!
;-)
One reason McCain did so poorly election night is due to all the negative campaigning. I live in western Pennsylvania and every single day there were negative ads, robocalls and literature warning us about Obama. People become desensitized to negativity and the messages of pro-life advocates become marginalized whenever we make negative personal attacks.
Obama managed to demonstrate a calmness and reasonableness that contrasted sharply with McCain’s anger, frustration and fear mongering. Our pro-life voices tend to sound shrill and angry, just like McCain’s, and people just get turned off by that.
We need to INSPIRE people to accept a pro-life position, not just inundate them with the evils of abortion. Demonizing those who don’t believe as we do has no positive impact and doesn’t help advance a pro-life agenda.
Consider the people who have inspired us during the 20th century. Then consider HOW they have inspired us.
Hank Aaron broke the home run record in 1974 although he had almost daily death threats. Did he lash out at those who threatened him? AND WHO DO WE REMEMBER? Hank Aaron or his critics?
How about the Rev. Martin Luther King? Do we remember him or do we remember his critics?
How about Ronald Reagan? Do we remember him or do we remember his critics? Ronald Reagan is remembered largely for his civility and ability to inspire us to greater deeds. And few remember his mistakes in office because of it.
How about Billy Graham? Do we remember him or do we remember his critics? Even my grandparents, who never went to church, would turn on Billy Graham whenever he came on and listen to the Gospel. Billy Graham could remind us we were sinners without actually calling anybody a sinner.
The pro-life movement will achieve nothing but notoriety by outrageous acts and statements. Calling the president-elect a BARBARIAN or NAZI achieves nothing and shows a disrespect and lack of humility unworthy of the name, “Christian”.
Jill, the pro-life movement is ill-served by people who claim the mantle of Christ but then describe others in a very unbiblical and un-Christian like manner. Advocacy in an unbecoming fashion detracts from the pro-life message, pure and simple.
I’d be very interested in your biblical justification for insulting President-elect Obama. I’d also be interested in how you think name calling will help advance a pro-life agenda.
Liz, yes, it’s 3 years old, but I don’t know of any ruling overturning that one, do you? Anyway, it IS “interesting”, IMO.
Yes, we can forget about overturning Roe v Wade, we can kiss that one goodbye.
“Sonograms. Sonograms. We offer sonograms. seeing a baby wiggle is true and real.Then ask a question. Why would the abortion clinic not let you have and see a sonogram? Insurance covers sonograms. Girls that see their own baby in a sonogram get cold feet on abortions. As the word gets out that abortionists do not give you a choice of seeing a sonogram before committing, that says something.”
Posted by: xppc at November 7, 2008 10:35 AM
-This is not true. The clinic I volunteer at is required to provide sonograms immediately prior to the abortion. I know of one woman who left after having the sono, once she discovered it was twins.
no one here has a good argument against the legal murdering
This is you once again lying and pretending. This silliness is according to you, not to me and not to most people on this board.
…..
have you ever written a false word in matters of abortion Doug?
Not willingly, but sure – I’ve been incorrect on matters of fact once in a while, and Bethany, Mary, Valerie, MK, etc., have at times brought that fact to my attention.
Posted by: Doug at November 7, 2008 11:02 AM
Let’s take the first part of your post above.
Your words verbatim.
“No one has a good arguemnt against abortion, they just think they do”. Which is why no one has a good argument against legal murder in your magical world of absolute self truth.
Now, since I’m mocking your style of sophistry and your not pasting my sentences in full context, which you then reconstruct into a magical winning argument amongst yourself and your dogmatic mind that knows no one has a good argument against the preacher for legal murder. You should admit to yourself your undefeated in all matters of the legal murder of innocent human life.
Warning, approaching Doug with any argument against abortion, is pre-destined to being defeated by the dogmatic mind that Doug has constructed into a invincible logic of knowing, before you write a word about abortion, that you have “no good argument against abortion, you just think you do”.
Which makes posting to Doug a amusement of mocking his spohistry while he denys the mockery from knowing that no one can mock Doug, they just think they do.
Second.
What false truths have you written in your doctrine on matters of abortion have you written Doug?
Can’t remember them? That’s how lying starts. Not remembering your false truths and as all liars eventually, defend their lies by writing that, “I’ve been incorrect on matters ”
To be sure that your not lying Doug, list the words and sentences you have mislead others on matters of abortion, by writing those false words about abortion once again.
And remember, that abortion is a human right that is offered free to citizens of the USA, and so should Electrical Energy be free to the citizens of the USA, as one delievers death on demand, and one delievers life in matters and attributes of energy.
Without electrical energy, human life dies.
That such a essential right to life is abused by fascist workers who take from the poor, and give to the rich, such as Doug, is plain old parasitism upon the poor masses.
But, when one is a fascist worker, what is not exploit for his overlords of corporate profit?
Soo, dude, since Jill payed a price for her morality, and morality without sacrifice is just another empty piece of propaganda, worth as much as your words are Doug, what have you sacrificed for your morality and daily preaching for the legal murder of innocent life?
Some wine?
A trip to a foreign nation where you abuse the poor of that nation?
A dollar given to your favorite abortion clinic?
Tell us, what amount of wealth have you given for your public preaching for the death of innocent human life?
Seems you have forgotten to answer some questions asked of you, dude.
Hey, that’s part of your sophistry and deconstructing a post by another person. And ends in you always posting what you think is a winning argument constructed in your mind dude.
Heh, its like that bible you learned from, you take what you want, and leave in what you want, and some parts of the bible don’t exist for you, but do exist for others.
Your deconstructionist pry bar and hammer can shape any word you write, or especially what others write, into another truth of Doug, that knows that no one has a good argument against Doug, they just think they do.
But, what does the dogmatist do when he has written false words to Bethany, and that must be open to the fact that Doug is writing a good false argument to Bethany?
He just thinks; No one has a good argument against my false words(you admitted such false truth already, dude) in matters of abortion, they just think they do.
m
I’d be very interested in your biblical justification for insulting President-elect Obama. I’d also be interested in how you think name calling will help advance a pro-life agenda.
Posted by: CaryChristian at November 7, 2008 11:41 AM
______________________
Stating who someone is by using his own words and then comparing those statements to God’s word is not insulting, it’s simply stating the truth. It would appear that you are vulneable to believing what tickles your ears and not the truth. This is a grave error. If you perceive what I say about Obama as insulting it is evidence that you are far from the truth and I suggest you start reading, studying, and meditating on the Bible for yourself and not listen to some compromised charlatan.
Obama is pro-abortion, the bible is not.
Obama is pro-gay, the Bible is not.
Obama is not sure what evil is, the Bile is very sure of what evil is.
Obama, by not repudiating that he is the messiah, agrees that he is the messiah, the Bible says there’s only one Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Obama thinks babies can be considered a punishment, the Bible does not.
His pastor damned America, this is not a Biblical concept.
Obama associated with terrorists, this is not a biblical concept.
Obama is a moral relatavist, the Bible is absolute.
Obama thinks it is godly to take one man’s money by compulsion to give it to someone who has not worked for it, the Bible says a man should work or not eat and that all money should be given cheerfully.
Obama thinks that government is the solution to poverty, to everything and the Bible says that Jesus Christ and the church is the solution to socitey’s problems. This is idolatry.
Obama says he doesn’t know when life begins and even while saying that can justify abortion, even partial birth abortion.
Obama obviously believes that it’s OK to have prayer out of schools, the Bible says that we should bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord wihtout qualification as to where that is to occur.
I’m not sure who you are Cary, but please really re-think calling yourself a Christina when you really have no idea what one is. There are no fence sitting Christians, oner is either a fully surrendered follower of Christ or a child of the devil.
I will pray for Obama, that he becomes a God-fearing Christian. By his actions and his words he is nither God-fearing, nor a Christian.
What he does and what he says will always determine what is said about him by those of us who know the truth.
I agree that we need to pray, picket, and work to change minds and hearts. But I also believe that we need to do more to fight with our pocketbooks. I’m working to educate myself on corporations that donate to PP and nonprofits that support abortion. I need to do a better job of boycotting businesses who support abortion.
Obama is pro-abortion, the bible is not.
Obama is pro-gay, the Bible is not.
Obama is not sure what evil is, the Bile is very sure of what evil is.
Obama, by not repudiating that he is the messiah, agrees that he is the messiah, the Bible says there’s only one Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Obama thinks babies can be considered a punishment, the Bible does not.
His pastor damned America, this is not a Biblical concept.
Obama associated with terrorists, this is not a biblical concept.
Obama is a moral relatavist, the Bible is absolute.
Obama thinks it is godly to take one man’s money by compulsion to give it to someone who has not worked for it, the Bible says a man
@@@@@@@@@@@@@Thanks hisman.
Actually if you don’t speak against unrighteousness it is sinful.
so we are clear on sonograms that women can see a baby.
next issue is lies. abortionism is based on lies. Roe in the supreme court case had her baby and lied. She did not abort. She has repented. She also admitted she lied about it being rape. Lied about rape? Under oath.
Justice Scalia is a very vocal man. He is not hesitant to let the dissent on the supreme court all know that the court brought shame to itself basing the land mark Roe ruling on 2 lies.
Just remind every pro deather that their court ruling is based on lies.
EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE.
Posted by: Joan at November 7, 2008 7:00 AM
____________________
Joan:
I agree. Let’s put God and Creationsm back in schools and disband the Leftist NEA.
Also Joan, I suggest your read this very relevant warning from St. Paul, the Apostle of Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 3
“The Day of the Lord
1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.
3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.”
“-This is not true. The clinic I volunteer at is required to provide sonograms immediately prior to the abortion. I know of one woman who left after having the sono, once she discovered it was twins.”
Danielle,
have you ever witnessed an abortion? have you ever seen a dead unborn child?
“-This is not true. The clinic I volunteer at is required to provide sonograms immediately prior to the abortion. I know of one woman who left after having the sono, once she discovered it was twins.”
Danielle,
have you ever witnessed an abortion? have you ever seen a dead unborn child?
Posted by: Jasper at November 7, 2008 12:56 PM
##############
Have I done an abortion?
Have i delivered live babies?
Have i done D&C’s
How many C-sections have I done?
Is it a baby in the Uterus? Yes.
If we prepare to do a c-section under general, why do we try to in an emergency move quickly so the anesthetic doesn’t depress the respiration of the baby? Every one knows it is a baby. (except the lawyers)
This just in. Unemployment has increased to 6.5%
The DOW continues to fall.
Perhaps the o’bama (pbuh) who can halt the rise of the oceans, will cause the DOW to rise.
Or as one ABC newsreader just stated, Heal the economy.
yor bro ken
xppc,
did you work at an abortion clinic?
Yllas, you have my respect. Not only for your meaningful posts, but for using the term ‘dude’ as I sometimes do. Cheers.
xppc,
did you work at an abortion clinic?
Never. Went into medicine before 1973
I’d be very interested in your biblical justification for insulting President-elect Obama.
Posted by: CaryChristian at November 7, 2008 11:41 AM
Cary,
How about in the Old Testament where there are a multitude of examples of people who turn away from God’s will and God’s law in order to satisfy their own lusts and desires. The lesson there is that such people will be inevitably crushed and brought to their knees for their idolatry. So it is with Obama, who seems to carry the name of Jesus like a flagpin on his lapel to be used for poilitical advantage; and sadly, in doing so, he has been able to deceive many. I tell you that Jesus would NOT condone silence when confronted with leadership by a man such as president-elcet Obama. Jesus came to serve his Father in heaven who is the creator of all “life” through the life giving presence of the Holy Spirit. Each and every person has life through the presence of The Holy Spirit. Scriptually it is wriiten that the life giving presence of the Holy Spirit is with us at the point of conception. Obama made his wayup through politics by supporting and enabling and being a mouthpiece for Planned Parenthood who is building abortuaries throughout the US for the purpose of killing these persons who were given life by God through the presence of The Holy Spirit. And you would blaspheme our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ just by saying that we should be silent whiole another man destroy’s his Father’s creation and the dwelling place of the Holy Spirit. You would have us be silent while the man and woman who fought for the right to stab babies in the head with a scissors and hel fundraisers to keep said procedure legal takes over as leadr of our country. I tell you this Cary. I am a lotyal American, but before I am anything else I am a Christian; and I will not deny my faith or the teachings of Jesus Christ just to follow a man who calls himself Christian and dedicates his lifes work to support the actions of barbarians.
unemployment rate + inflation rate = misery index
During the Presidential campaign of 1976, Democratic candidate, Jimmy Carter, made frequent references to the Misery Index, which by the summer of 1976 was at 13.57%. When President Carter was running for re-election against Ronald Reagan, the Misery Index had reached an all-time high of 21.98%.
I propose that we develope a instrument to measure the state of the both the culture and the economy under the rein of the o’bama (pbuh).
This instrument should indicate the total of the abortion rate, the inflation rate, the interest rate and the unemployment rate. All these rates should improve under benevolent and positive influence of the o’bama (pbuh).
I propose we call this instrument ‘The Barameter’
NEWSFLASH the o’bama (pbuh) has just vowed to head butt the economic crisis (EC) as soon as he is coronated president. No response yet from EC. The Barameter is enable and calibrated to detect even the slightest movement in any or all of the monitored rates.
yor bro ken
Yes, Jill! I agree wholeheartedly! We must not forget that abortion is still a choice in this country (although I don’t know how much longer that will be true given that one-child policies already exist elsewhere in the world!) So long as women have that choice, then we still have the opportunity to help them see the difference between those choices that are destructive and those that offer hope. Also, we must not forget that respectable doctors, nurses, and health care workers also have a choice when it comes to the practice of their profession. The same goes for pharmacists. (again, not sure for how much longer, though) We are operating on the side of Truth. We must never forget these things!
I’d be very interested in your biblical justification for insulting President-elect Obama.
Posted by: CaryChristian at November 7, 2008 11:41 AM
This request was not directed to me, but I will show you the biblical and historical basis for speaking truth to power if you will allow me.
yor bro ken
“have you ever witnessed an abortion? have you ever seen a dead unborn child?”
Posted by: Jasper at November 7, 2008 12:56 PM
To both questions: Live, no – on screen/TV, yes.
HisMan,
Thank you for your post on Hitler.
Every one knows it is a baby. (except the lawyers)
Posted by: xppc at November 7, 2008 1:37 PM
—-
If I recall correctly – President-Elect Obama is a lawyer…that explains a lot – eh?
Dr. Bernard Nathanson was co-founder in 1969 of the National Association for the Repeal of Abortion Laws — NARAL — later renamed the National Abortion Rights Action League. He was also the former director of New York’s City’s Center for Reproductive and Sexual Health, then the largest abortion clinic in the world. In the late 1970’s he turned against abortion to become a prominent pro-life advocate, authoring Abortion America and producing the powerfully revealing video, “The Silent Scream.” Dr. Nathanson is currently Clinical Associate Professor of Obstetrics and Gynecology at New York Medical College and a visiting scholar at Vanderbilt University.
As director of the world’s largest abortion clinic and the nation’s most prominent abortionist, Dr. Bernard Nathanson presided over 60,000 abortions.
Not a lawyer on the planet that can argue with Nathanson. It is a baby and is a killing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Nathanson
He confesses to it being killing. Can’t argue with an honest confession
HisMan has a master’s in theology, I believe.
these anonymous people crack me up! if you are going to say something ‘fess up!
it is these same anonymous people that are trying to take down Sarah Palin! if you are going to attack or criticize someone at least have the courage to put your name on it!
by the way HisMan i enjoy your comments and blog!
and i also enjoy your comments James!
Anonymous comments are deleted.
thanks for that info Carla! you are another one that i enjoy hearing from on here and on your blog!
That’s correct Bobby:
I have a Bachelor’s in Mechanical Engineering, I am a Registered Engineer, a father of five god-fearing, Bible believing kids, one a Middle east veteran combat pilot, a Master’s Degree in Theology, working on my Doctorate, run two businesses and married 32 years.
But of all my accomplishments I have the testicular fortitude to stand up to these clueless nymphs who will soon understand the destruction they have just wrought on our country.
I serve on boards of two ministries and am Commissioner of a Football League here in AZ.
And all of this to my God and Savior Jesus Christ’s glory. For without Him I am nothing.
And old, is 55 old? Most people say I look and act 35, a righteous 35. Most of my friends are 30 something Christians.
So, Anon, in 20 years, when your 40 something and I’m in my 70’s, you’re graying and moaning from all your unrighteouness living, I’m gonna be still going strong as long as the Lord gives me strength.
This too Anon, one’s inability to comprehend or understand the truth is evidence of the road that they are on, the road to perdition.
You certainly brag a lot HisMan.
Rae,
He has a lot to “brag” about. All for God’s glory.
(I’m serious, HisMan, I’m not poking fun.)
:^)
Jill,
Have a safe ride home! God bless you.
Shame on all the people who profess the name of Christ and say all these awful things about their brothers and sisters in Christ!
Truthseeker and HisMan: You both need to take the time and think about what you are saying on this blog and the WAY you are communicating it.
I’ve been a born again Christian since accepting Jesus as my savior in 1974 while I was in the Navy. I’ve been married to the same wonderful Christian woman since 1983 and we have three wonderful Christian children (two boys and one girl). I spent eight years at John MacArthur’s church where I was baptised and received a great deal of evangelism and discipleship training.
I’ve been a Bible study leader, taught discipleship, managed our church bookstore and been the men’s ministry prayer leader at my church.
My son and daughter in law are church supported missionaries in the inner city of Pittsburgh, my daughter is engaged to a pastor in training, and my middle son is currently serving in the military.
How dare either of you question my Christian credentials! How many people have you led to Christ by calling them names?
How many people on this blog have you insulted and angered through your insensitive comments?
How many people have you judged? How unloving have you been?
SHAME ON BOTH OF YOU!!
You gotta be f***ing kidding. ALL of the legislation we’ve already passed, that reduced abortions by 20%, will be tossed out the window by FOCA, which goes beyond Roe. Health care professionals can kiss conscience clauses goodbye. I’m also betting that the CPCs will be under a concerted attack that will make the way they went after Sarah Palin and Joe the Plumber look like goodhearted teasing.
Sidewalk counseling and praying outside abortion mills will be a felony. We’ll be lucky if we’re even allowed to have prolife bumper stickers and t-shirts — because Obama will want to classify prolife speech as a federal hate crime.
Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war. They won’t be happy until it’s a felony for us to even speak our minds.
I don’t know much about John MacArthur, Cary. I see his name a lot and feel that I should be at least somewhat familiar with his teaching and ministry. Is there one book of his that you would recommend? I get him and Josh McDowell confused as well… So much to learn… thanks, God love you.
“Sidewalk counseling and praying outside abortion mills will be a felony. We’ll be lucky if we’re even allowed to have prolife bumper stickers and t-shirts — because Obama will want to classify prolife speech as a federal hate crime.Cry havoc and let loose the dogs of war. They won’t be happy until it’s a felony for us to even speak our minds.”
Posted by: Christina at November 7, 2008 4:05 PM
Please calm down. The man isn’t even in office yet and you’re already screaming the sky is falling. Yes, he is a pro-choice president but I doubt he’s going to alienate the majority of public opinion (which is pro-choice at varying degrees – most to not want to abolish RvW).
Secondly, the rather melodramatic scenario you’ve visualized above would not come to pass – as long as your interpretation of protest and picketing does not involve the harrassment or harm of doctors and clinic patients. You can only take that right away yourselves.
Rae:
Without Him I am nothing. If I boast my boast is in Him.
God did this despite me.
God is going to change Barack Obama.
a VIDEO – Obama/Keyes Debates.
Mike
I do believe that bringing the truth out to those who are perishing (spiritually & physically) at the killing places is an essential part of addressing the culture where it really matters. Like the gospel, truth-telling is most effective when we share it the way Jesus & His disciples did, one day at a time, face-to-face with real people. Being faithful to the Great Commission is really a one person-at-a-time proposition, isn’t that true?
I would take strong exception to the insider advocating keeping ‘Abortion Hurts Women’ as a central theme/platform. Why? Because it is not biblical. To be biblical Christians we have to stick with what God has revealed in His Word about sinners, which is the category that women who murder their babies fall into. The Bible teaches us that the real abiding nature of the problem of abortion is the problem of the mother’s heart. “But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person.” (Matthew 15:18-20a) She is defiled (degraded, devastated) from WITHIN by her own evil heart. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jeremiah 17:9 It is important that professing Christians take our lead from the supremacy of the teaching of the Word of God in all matters pertaining to life & godliness & humanity. The woman is her own worst enemy! Read through John Piper on Total Depravity: http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html This subject of the inner corruption of human nature & her slavery to sin is being left out of the equation in most pro-life circles. Read also: http://www.the-highway.com/depravity_Boettner.html
Truth is important. It is from God & He has laid it out for us in the Bible. Truth is eternal. It is not subject to modern interpretation via humanistic (woman-centered)psychology. These are vital matters because we must be faithful to God rather than appealing to humanistic/therapeutic prattle (vain deceitful philosophies of the world) Colossians 2:8 warns about this: “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”
I am completely against the proclamation or advancement of any unbiblical doctrine. Abortion is a sin against God & against the innocent child. Mothers like us who murder their babies are not victims, but guilty perpetrators. We SHOULD be hurt by our sin … And guilty sinners who are truly penitent & have been forgiven by the grace & power of Jesus Christ should not try & diminish or lessen their responsibility or culpability for their sin but rather confess their suppression of the truth in unrighteousness when they murdered their babies (or helped someone else murder). Those who understand the tremendous sinfulness of their sin do not advocate for making their sin seem sympathetic in the eyes of the world (or in the eyes of other guilty sinners). This is how the whole marketing of ‘abortion hurts women’ platform comes off. It wouldn’t matter to me if it seemed to ‘work’. Truth is not something we have the right to adjust & change & use as a means to accomplish an end. For me that is deception & guile, which should not be found among those who belong to Christ. Let us remember that Jesus is the way,the truth & the life. The truth is the WAY of Life, the WAY to LIFE. We have to believe that the great Savior is able to accomplish His purposes with His Word, His way. The way of God is to use His moral law, calling sin sin. In the case of abortion this means never calling it a ‘mistake’, a ‘decision’ a ‘choice’ or even simply a ‘regret’. We must call it what it is in the eyes of God, a violation of His commandment, “You shall not murder”, which is written on the hearts of all pre-abortive women so that they are without excuse. We must be faithful to call for true repentance (confession & forsaking of all known sin, read Thomas Watson on Repentance:http://www.fivesolas.com/watson/drepenti.htm) & a humble trust in Jesus Christ.
I highly recommend that you all listen to Hell’s Best Kept Secret & True & False Conversion. http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/hellsbestkeptsecret.htm & http://www.livingwaters.com/learn/trueandfalse.htm
These powerful teaching will help you understand & identify what the world, the flesh & the devil have kept under wraps from the world & from the visible church (&, it seems, most of the pro-life community). These are God’s truths & they need to be taught, preached & proclaimed on the streets outside the killing places. May Jesus give you a holy boldness as you take your stand at the death camp near you!
I’ve been thinking about this a lot since the election. I think the big problem we have as pro-lifers is that we only come out with are arms swinging during election times. The movement is slowly dying each year. To get the movement back on track we need to fight each and everyday, not just during election time. That way by the time the election is here we have many more followers who are willing to vote for life.
“Sidewalk counseling and praying outside abortion mills will be a felony.”
Thats true Christina, Obama’s pall Deval Patrick already increased the buffer-zone around mills from 18 to 36 ft!. Pretty soon we’ll have stand down the street from an abortion mill to protest.
Hi Bobby,
Where to begin? John MacArthur and John Piper are both prolific writers.
I would actually start with Piper’s, “Don’t Waste Your Life”, a truly excellent book.
Also Piper’s, ” The Legacy of Sovereign Joy: God’s Triumphant Grace in the Lives of Augustine, Luther, and Calvin”. Many Christians today are unaware of the fathers of our faith and their impact on the church today.
For John MacArthur, it would really depend on the subject you’re most interested in, but here are just a few of the many books he has written:
“Because the Time is Near” – A great guide to the Book of Revelation;
“Hard to Believe: The High Cost and Infinite Value of Following Jesus”;
“Ashamed of the Gospel: When the Church Becomes Like the World” – This particular book might be some help to those people on this blog who, in the name of Jesus, treat non-Christians and Christians alike so rudely. I hope it’s just a minority of people on this blog but I’m not convinced yet;
“Why Government Can’t Save You: An Alternative To Political Activism”;
“The Book of Leadership”;
“Reasons We Believe: 50 Lines of Evidence That Confirm the Christian Faith”. Similar to Paul Little’s “Know Why Your Believe” and “Know What You Believe”, and Josh McDowell’s “Evidence That Demands a Verdict”.
There’s also a wonderful book called, “Safe in the Arms of God: Truth from Heaven About the Death of a Child”. A book like this is particularly helpful for mothers who have aborted. Though primarily geared to parents who lost a newborn or young child, many of the same principles apply.
I don’t see much of the “fruit of the Spirit” on this blog, and that is truly sad. For readers who would be interested in learning more about the attributes of God, I’d recommend A.W. Tozer’s, “Knowledge of the Holy”. It’s a short and pithy devotional that has impacted the lives of many Christians. If you wish to do a more in-depth study of God’s attributes, Tozer also has two volumes entitled, “The Attributes of God”, in two separate volumes.
For those interested in learning more about how the fruit of the Spirit can be demonstrated in our daily lives, there is a book called, “The Practice of the Presence of God”, by Brother Lawrence. This book reminds us that not every Christian is a member of a Protestant denomination.
Two words of encouragement and exhortation for my brothers and sisters in Christ who blog here:
“So also the tongue is a small part of the body, and yet it boasts of great things. See how great a forest is set aflame by such a small fire!” (James 3:5)
“If I speak in the tongues of mortals and of angels, but do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient; love is kind; love is not envious or boastful or arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice in wrongdoing, but rejoices in the truth. It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.” (I Corinthians 13:1-5)
“But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with GENTLENESS and RESPECT”
(I Peter 3:15)
CaryChristian,
I am just stating facts from the Life and teachings of Jesus Christ to Christians who may be deceived by other “false” teachnings. I am trying to save God’s children from being slaughtered. Since you are a preacher and Biblical scholar then maybe you can tell me what exactly did I say that goes against Jesus teaching?
CaryChristian,
When somebody is sinning and losing their sould it IS LOVE to adminish them. Such was the example of the first and greatest prophets of Jesus Christ who were filled with the Holy Spirit. Would you deny that? Would you say that they were not living and preaching the Gospel the way Jesus Christ himself taught them?
Secondly, the rather melodramatic scenario you’ve visualized above would not come to pass – as long as your interpretation of protest and picketing does not involve the harrassment or harm of doctors and clinic patients. You can only take that right away yourselves.
Posted by: Danielle at November 7, 2008 4:12 PM
Cary,
WOW! Thank you SO MUCH for taking the time to give me a lot of material to ponder over. You really know your stuff. I’m actually a Catholic, but I really want to try and branch out more and read a lot of what my Protestant brothers and sisters have to say. I’ve learned so much from men like R.C. Sproul, William Lane Craig, and Norm Geisler, but I’d like to expand my horizons and become familiar with as many of the “big names” in all of Christendom as I can. Thanks again. God love you.
“For Christ taught me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel; not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.”
1 Cor 1:17
harass clients? I know that the local sidewalk counselors merely want to offer alternatives and support for these women. However, every time they try to offer help, the death-scorts drown them out with a LEAF BLOWER or loud music.
I wonder if the abortion mill lies to these women and tells them the same old lies: “its just tissue” or “its not a baby yet” or “its just blood clot”.
above post was ts
I added most of your suggestions to my amazon wishlist, BTW.
becky,
Thanks! :)
carychristian,
Piper is awesome!! Thanks for the info.
Brother Truthseeker,
Confronting and admonishing in LOVE is only achieved when it is done in LOVE. I can remember when I was a young Christian and I dearly wanted my non-Christian friends to accept Christ. What I managed to do was alienate most of them by confronting them about their sin and nagging them constantly. Although I continue to pray for my friends, many of whom I’ve known for over 40 years now, I realize now the damage I did because of my zeal to see them saved.
In and of itself, zeal is an excellent thing. But even zeal has to tempered with wisdom and grace or else the damage done is irreparable.
Ask any parent how they struggle with discipling their own children. I love my children but I will confess openly here something that is true for most parents. When they were younger and misbehaved, all too often I was either angry or frustrated when I disciplined them. I had the right and the authority to discipline my children, but the way I often did it was wrong.
I don’t have any problem at all with Jesus confronting the Pharisees and others. Jesus had both the authority and wisdom to do so. We may have the authority to do so; we may have truth on our side; but, as shown by the unloving and insensitive remarks that appear on this blog, we don’t often have the wisdom to do so.
The passage from Acts 17 is one of my favorite parts of Scripture because of the manner in which Paul attempts to persuade the Athenians. Even though Paul was “exasperated” at the sight of idols in the city, his speech to the crowd gathered was not confrontive, angry or rude. And it is clear that he had an impact on his listeners, some of whom believed. If we want to reach anybody with the pro-life message, we need to appear reasonable, knowledgeable and like people who care. Jesus didn’t call the Samaritan woman at the well a whore and tell her she was going to hell.
I pray we may also have an impact on those who follow this discourse. But by and large, most of what is written here is just venting and arguing. “Speaking the truth in love, we are to grow in all aspects into Him who is the ead, even Christ.” (Ephesian 4:15).
God bless and keep this blog holy. :)
Please stick around CaryChristian. The venting comes and goes. The word of God is still spoken here. He will not be mocked.
GOD BLESS the LDS Mormon church. The LDS church spent over 20 million dollars in California. They are organized and focused. They can be blessed by a lot more gospel truth. I was glad to hear they are fighting gay marriage. They are getting more physical threats from the gay aggitators. I am not a Mormon. All of them that i learn to know very well are so pleasant and kind. Since their identity is distinctive, the gay attacks will really target them.
CaryChristian,
You said ” If we want to reach anybody with the pro-life message, we need to appear reasonable, knowledgeable and like people who care. Jesus didn’t call the Samaritan woman at the well a whore and tell her she was going to hell.”
I do understand what you are trying to say, but there is a time for admonishment also, as I pointed out to you in my earlier post. The scripture passage you spoke of previously, where Paul was preaching to the Athenians, he was not speaking to “Christians”. He was speaking to unbelievers and that is a large part of why he was not admonishing them. What irks me, and what desrves ADMONISHMENT is people who call themselves followers of Jesus and would rip the child from a mother’s womb. Without repentance they are likely headed to hell and to not speak the truth openly about it is to allow other Christians to follow them to destruction.
Woe I say, woe to any Christian who would support anybody or enable anybody in such a barbaric act that is the sacrament of the Devil himself. “Christians” must unite against this evil and be of one mind and one body, and we must unite on the side of life. Woe to the Christian churches who do not speak against this evil. Woe I say.
CaryChristian:
Where were you before the election? I suspect you voted for Obama. Also, I suspect you’re black. Are you black and did you vote for Obama? Are you pro-life or pro-abortion?
You’ve got a lot of nerve coming on here now and judging us as well.
I noticed that of all the books you listed, not one of them is the Bible. Why is that? Seems to me you’re more interested in what men have to say than God.
If you’re going to come on this blog and spew, then be in it for the long haul. Don’t just come once, do your damage, speak, then leave.
Remember love is longsuffering as well and God knows I have been attacked for 18 months just for standing up for life.
And if you’re so biblically knowledgeable and a true, loving, beleiver why are you attacking me before unbelievers? Why don’t you go to my blog, http://www.ixoye.name and send me an e-mail?
This too. Quote one thing I said that you disagree with or you think was unloving in answering your first question whcih was:
“I’d be very interested in your biblical justification for insulting President-elect Obama. I’d also be interested in how you think name calling will help advance a pro-life agenda.
Posted by: CaryChristian at November 7, 2008 11:41 AM”
To make it real easy for you, I’ll repost my answer to you here. Pick one thing, just one thing I said that is not true……here you go….
——————–
Stating who someone is by using his own words and then comparing those statements to God’s word is not insulting, it’s simply stating the truth. It would appear that you are vulneable to believing what tickles your ears and not the truth. This is a grave error. If you perceive what I say about Obama as insulting it is evidence that you are far from the truth and I suggest you start reading, studying, and meditating on the Bible for yourself and not listen to some compromised charlatan.
Obama is pro-abortion, the bible is not.
Obama is pro-gay, the Bible is not.
Obama is not sure what evil is, the Bile is very sure of what evil is.
Obama, by not repudiating that he is the messiah, agrees that he is the messiah, the Bible says there’s only one Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Obama thinks babies can be considered a punishment, the Bible does not.
His pastor damned America, this is not a Biblical concept.
Obama associated with terrorists, this is not a biblical concept.
Obama is a moral relatavist, the Bible is absolute.
Obama thinks it is godly to take one man’s money by compulsion to give it to someone who has not worked for it, the Bible says a man should work or not eat and that all money should be given cheerfully.
Obama thinks that government is the solution to poverty, to everything and the Bible says that Jesus Christ and the church is the solution to socitey’s problems. This is idolatry.
Obama says he doesn’t know when life begins and even while saying that can justify abortion, even partial birth abortion.
Obama obviously believes that it’s OK to have prayer out of schools, the Bible says that we should bring up our children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord wihtout qualification as to where that is to occur.
I’m not sure who you are Cary, but please really re-think calling yourself a Christina when you really have no idea what one is. There are no fence sitting Christians, oner is either a fully surrendered follower of Christ or a child of the devil.
I will pray for Obama, that he becomes a God-fearing Christian. By his actions and his words he is nither God-fearing, nor a Christian.
What he does and what he says will always determine what is said about him by those of us who know the truth.
Posted by: HisMan at November 7, 2008 12:24 PM”
OK CaryChristian…take your best shot…I can handle anything you dish out and am not beyond being admonished and corrected. So, go ahead.
From the FRC:
“Members of the radical “No on 8” campaign in California have quickly turned their disappointment over the homosexual marriage ban into rabid hostility. Protestors have flooded the streets in Los Angeles with their sights set on the Mormon Church, railing against its leaders for their powerful role in protecting marriage. Together with allies in the Catholic and Protestant churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) was one of the main ingredients in Proposition 8’s success. The Mormon Church’s donations, estimated at roughly $22 million, fueled the hundreds of ad placements across the state that ultimately tipped the scales in the amendment’s favor. Yesterday, 2,000 homosexual activists vilified the church, huddling outside the gate of an L.A. temple with profane signs and rainbow flags. Today, another march is scheduled for Temple Square in Salt Lake City, but the Church’s leadership has no regrets about its involvement. In a statement, Elder Clayton said, “We believe it’s a moral issue, and we reserve the right to speak out on moral issues.” At LDS headquarters in Utah, leaders called for a ceasefire with gay activists and “goodwill” on both sides. Unfortunately, that message has yet to stick with the “No on 8” crowd, which has lashed out with unprecedented aggression against the faith community. Apart from the attacks on the LDS church (including ugly ads that depict Mormon missionaries invading the home of a lesbian couple and tearing up their marriage certificate), churches like Jack Hibbs’ Calvary Chapel at Chino Hills have been spray-painted, cars vandalized, and police have confirmed at least two reports of physical assault. Once again, the Left is proving its unwillingness to practice the very “tolerance” they preach. FRC is proud of the example that the interfaith community has set on marriage. If the Prop 8 outcome is any indication, homosexuals could stand to learn a thing or two from the church on civility.”
xppc, you can blame the California supreme court for this one. They over-rode the peoples vote once and allowed this to continue against the peoples will. May God bless the Mormons tremendously for their strength and conviction.
BTW- no coincidence that Utah is also the most pro-lifestate in the union.
Also from the FRC:
“Pro-Life Support: Bott and Paid for
As part of his “outreach” to the faith community, Barack Obama spent thousands in advertising on Christian radio stations, including an investment with our good friends at Bott Radio Network (BRN). Since the FCC requires that Bott accept paid advertising from “all bona fide candidates” for federal office, BRN complied. But instead of allowing Obama’s insincerity on family values to go unchecked, the network aired its own announcements contrasting the candidate’s claims with his own anti-life, anti-faith record. In a letter to FRC, BRN wrote, “While we are required to air his paid advertising, we are not required to keep his money. We decided to ‘spread his wealth around’ by donating the proceeds from his advertising in those markets to pro-life organizations and crisis pregnancy centers which his policies would oppose.” We salute the Bott network for turning a play for votes into real help for women and their unborn children.”
Thank you one and all but particularly to Bobby and Carla. I’m indebted to you both for blessing my day in a way I hadn’t expected.
Thank you to Truthseeker and HisMan, too. Your comments caused me to search my own heart and life first and pray before acting. You both can judge for yourself if I am a Christian but, ultimately, that is the Lord’s function and I leave that for a faithful and caring Creator.
“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.” (Galatians 5:22-23)
Cary,
As I recall, the Samaritan women wasn’t killing anybody either, she was offering Jesus a drink of water. lol
SCOTUS SOUTER TELLS OBAMA TO PRODUCE BIRTH CERTIFICATE DECEMBER 1
This is interesting. Souter tells Obama to produce the vault copy by December 1, 2008. I believe the messiah(pbuh) will defy the Justices.
If Oblahma fails or refuses, he may be aborted.
CaryChristian:
If we judge using our standards than we are judging incorrectly.
If we know God’s Word, which is the truth, we have a mantle and a duty to speak truth into other’s lives, which in almost all cases, is percieved as judgemental. To do otherwise is sin and sloth and the witholding of something that may save them. However, if we speak the truth out of a motive of love for their eternal soul, it is not I who am judging it is the truth that is judging. Are we not supposed to speak truth?
I really think that most Christians don’t have a clue as to what agape is. It is not the touchy feely, let’s hug and be nice stuff which is practiced in so many churches today, although there is nothing wrong with that. But no, no, no. Agape love is doing what is best for another in spite of what may come back to you, love, death, or otherwise.
It’s a parent telling their child no when in reality they would rather just give in and spare me the conflict, the grief, the stress.
Jesus Himself was called “a rock of offense”. Why is that? It’s because he told the truth.
When you warn people that they’re behavior will send them to hell, that is offensive. In fact, we make judgements when we decide to candy coat the truth and not just speak it. We judge that the truth itself is not enough.
Jesus never once compromised the truth and always spoke what the Father told him to speak.
Why did they crucify him? Why did they murder him? Why did they abandon him? Why did they betray him? Because he was a nice, popular and touchy, feely, nice guy?
No, because He spoke the truth and the truth is offensive to those that are lost and until the seed of truth starts growing in the soil of their hearts, if it is good soil, softens it, and gives birth to the truth and more seed.
Love is kind, right? What is kinder than telling somone that homosexuality will send them to hell, bearing the hatred you receive back for saying that, but perhaps eventually saving their soul?
How do I tell a homosexual that his behavior is offensive to God and an abomination and will result in eternal damanation?
Do I say; “your behavior is offensive to God and an abomination and will result in eteranl damanation.”
Or do I say: “your behavior is offensive to God and an abomination and will result in eternal damanation”
or maybe I add, “God loves you, however, he only promises to forgive you if you forsake and repent from your homosexaul behavior, otherhwise he will have no other choice than to allow you to go to hell”.
Which one of those statements is less offensive? Please tell me.
Love is patient, right? What is more patient than telling people over and over again the truth without wavering?
Do you think I like coming on this blog and debating and countering all of the lies and slander against God? This is work my friend and it’s an attempot at saving some, just a few, maybe just one, I don’t know. Most that hear the truth reject it.
Love – agape, doing what is best for others and forgetting self.
Joy – Quiet confidence that comes as result of full faith in the sacrifiece of Jesus Christ.
Peace – Peace with God who was, before faith, your enemy.
Patience – this has nothing to do with proper waiting. This is living, doing, breathing and being totally surrendered to Christ.
Kindness – Thinking of others before thinking of yourself. Engaging those that are lost in darkness knowing how much they will attack you back, hate you, vilify you, etc., etc.
Goodness – striving to do the right thing, always, under all circumstances even when no one else is looking.
Faithfulness – Doing what you say you’re gonna do. Keeping your promises to your kids, your wife, your friends, your brothers and sisters in Christ, your employer.
Self-control – self explanatory.
By the way. There’s not a person on the face of the earth, Christian or otherwise that fully and completely demonstrates all of these qulaities all of the time. Only one person ever did that and that was Jesus Christ. That’s why He is worhty, He is holy and that why we need Him so desperately.
CaryChristian at November 7, 2008 4:01 PM
—-
Hi Cary,
I agree – Mt 18:15 would be well practiced by all who are truly in the Lord.
Splinters, logs, eyes and humility. I confess, at times, I’ve been harsh and provoking, other times forthright, while other times humble and reserved. If you asked some pro-abortion folks, they might indicate I’m “colorful”. heh
Not everyone is the same, nor are we all given the exact same gifts.
My observations about on-line discussions (having done them for 25 years): Commenting is not quite the same as face to face conversations – there’s no body language to convey additional information, and despite sometimes absolute clarity in writing, misunderstandings often occur, even among those who have deep mutual respect for each other.
After a while patterns emerge. If you’re fortunate, you end up connecting with others on a personal level that goes beyond the abortion arguments, and reaches the heart. It’s at that point where people may still disagree, but there’s still something deep and caring despite our differences. Any movement of the heart, then is really up to God.
So temperaments vary. On Jill’s site, at times it’s close to a free for all. Often the conversation may jump thread to thread among regulars. Sometimes it gets very personal (with TMI – too much information) and the mods may have to regulate it, but for the most part, it tends to feel a lot like Speaker’s Corner in Hyde Park, London.
Occasionally, you may see object lessons, where what happens here on the blog is used to illustrate a point, or you may see a breakout of just plain silliness among the regulars.
When we’re at our best, there’s a very respectful appreciation, and great discussion, but cultivating that given such opposing points of view…does one even attempt to do that, save the Holy Spirit?
I could be wrong, but where there is passion and fire, it may be encouraging to some and yet not to others. Do we quench that?
My prayer is that we, all who comment here, grow in compassion and mercy, and that God’s grace and lovingkindness might be shared between all.
Hi HisMan,
Brother, I know you are familiar with this passage of Scripture, but I want to remind you to help you:
Philippians Chapter 2
“1 Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
4 Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 SO THEN, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or disputing;
15 so that you will prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you appear as lights in the world,
16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I will have reason to glory because I did not run in vain nor toil in vain.
Brother, race bating is really unbecoming a child of God. My mother used to rant on and on about Mexicans coming over the border. But I noticed something really interesting after she accepted Christ at age 73 (Praise the Lord): she stopped criticizing Mexicans and blacks. She and I have even talked about how it might just be part of God’s plan for Mexicans to enter the country illegally for the sake of the Gospel and their souls. Brother, there will be fewer caucasians in Heaven than Asians, Blacks and Hispanics. To the Glory of God, there is an explosion of the Gospel in third world countries.
Either way, what difference would it make if I was black? That remark doesn’t really make any sense. You must remember Colossians 3:11? “…there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all”.
You must of missed my other blogs about being pro-life. My original blog expressed disappointment that Jill would call Obama a barbarian (I believe she’s also subsequently called him a Nazi). Name calling is just plain un-Christian.
God love you, HisMan. You should really try to tone the rhetoric down a notch and remember who you are in Christ, brother. I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else on this blog.
Sad to say but over the years I’ve known quite a few Christians who did some very un-Christian like things. If we are going to be light unto the world, we need to make sure we don’t:
Bad mouth our pastors, elders and deacons;
Bad mouth those in civil authority (i.e., the president or president-elect);
Get angry with one another (both Christians and non-Christians alike); or
Act in a manner unbecoming our walk in Christ.
We need to continue to pray for those who support abortion whether they are the politicians who support it or the doctors and nurses who perform abortions daily.
We need to educate women and men about the non-abortion options available. There are thousands of families who would love to adopt an unwanted child. My pastor and his wife had to wait two years to adopt two boys. It makes no sense that the adoption process should take so long.
But especially we need to love and forgive those poor women who are duped into having abortions performed. They have to live with the tragedy of their acts for the rest of their lives.
“Rejoice always; pray without ceasing; in everything give thanks; for this is God’s will for you in Christ Jesus.: (I Thessalonians 5:16-18)
CaryChristian,
who did you vote for?
But especially we need to love and forgive those poor women who are duped into having abortions performed. They have to live with the tragedy of their acts for the rest of their lives.
Amen. But we need to show them hope too.
Amen to Chris Arsenault. And even an Amen to HisMan because it sounds like he’s taking his time now and calming down a little (too much caffeine, brother, is not a good thing :) ).
Homosexuality is a whole other topic I’ve had to deal with on a personal level. My older and one of my younger brothers is gay. I found out when I was in high school.
They used to have a commercial when I was a kid for tires. The motto went something like, “Where the rubber meets the road”. And where the “rubber meets the road” is where what you believe and how you live it is really tested.
That’s the way it’s been for me and my brothers. I became a Christian when I was 19 (I’m 53 now) and knowing what the Bible said about homosexuality made it really difficult for me to relate to my brothers. It made it even harder for me to deal with the many friends each of them had because I’m so conservative and they were really out there.
I love my older brother a lot. He talked me out of running away from home when I was ten years old. My family argued all the time and one night I just got sick of it and starting walking away. I have no idea where I was headed except away from my home.
But my brother spotted me running away and took me to the store and bought me a candy bar and a soda. He told me it was going to be ok and the arguing would stop eventually. He put his arm around me and walked me home.
I’ve never forgotten how kind my brother was to me that night. There were a few he was mean to me but I don’t choose to remember those times. The one night he talked me out of running away stands out more than the bad times.
My brother is now 59 years old and is diagnosed with incurable hepatitis C. Last year, his body rejected the treatments that would of cured the disease so now he has about four more years to live. I guess they won’t give a transplant to someone who has hep C. I cried uncontrollably when I heard the news from my sister because I care very deeply for Mike in spite of his sexual preference.
Most of us realize we’re going to die someday but not many of us have a pretty clear idea. So eternity stands before my brother and I’m faced deciding whether my being uncomfortable with his homosexuality is more important than his need for salvation.
I don’t need to convict my brother of sin: that’s the Holy Spirit’s job. I do need to present the Gospel to my brother and share Christ with him.
We really find out what kind of Christians we are when faced with life and death situations. Abortion is a life or death situation. But how we address the issue with people is a measure of what kind of Christians we are.
just wanted to share with you guys a caonversation that just happened at Pizza Hut. thought a little humor would be good tonight!
we were eating with my sis in law and her two boys. my 4 year old nephew said “i don’t like barack! he wants to take our money!”
then my four year old daughter chimed in and yelled “barack obama kills babies!” (i know, i know i’ve got to watch it! i swear they are like sponges though!)
they continue yelling at each other that barack should be put in jail, he is a bad guy!
by this point we are getting a few stares and an elderly gentlemen stands up with an obama pin on! we were mortified!
the best part of the night though was when my nephew told my daughter not to worry about her baby sister because he would protect her from the bad guy obama!
Oh Cary, that is just a heart wrenching story. Thank you so much for sharing. This is obviously a very difficult situation for you on many levels, but it looks like you are coming at it from the right perspective.
“I’m faced deciding whether my being uncomfortable with his homosexuality is more important than his need for salvation.”
I’m not exactly sure what you mean by this, but there is nothing more important right now than your brother’s salvation. The Lord is able to work wonders. As long as there is a breath of life in him, it’s never too late for your brother. God is able to work miracles, many of which we will never know about in this lifetime. God love you Cary. I will keep you and your brothers in prayer.
Because I asked you if you’re black you say I am race baiting?
I have many black Christian friends who are devout believers. They couldn’t see past the fact that Barack was a black man even though he is a devout promoter of abortion. This in no way could I understand.
Look, I ma a very dark Italian. I grew up with black people as my best friends. Many of my best friends are black. However, I never thought that my black Christian friends could ever vote for someone who is for the murder of children in the womb simply because he is of their color. To me, they have learned nothing of what the Gospel is all about.
What would say of me if I endorsed Guiliani, an Italian, even though he was a pro-abort. On April 7, 2007 on this site I strongly spoke agasit him as the Republican nominee. Character should always trump race, ethnicity, gender, etc.
If you truly believed the verse you quoted, i.e., Colossians 3:11″…there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all”, especially in light of that verse, why in God’s name would you vote for a black man simply because he was black, especially someone like Barack Obama whose views are anything but Christian?
And I really, really can’t believe you said this:
“Brother, there will be fewer caucasians in Heaven than Asians, Blacks and Hispanics.”
How do you know that? That is the most racist, most judgemental comment I think I have ever read on this site and pretty much exposes you for who you really are. A racist person, who sees color as more important than character.
You are no one to lecture me.
I wouldn’t be surprised if you are a Liberal hack who is trying to totally take down Jill’s site as she represents a real threat to Barack Obama.
Well, you don’t know me. You have no idea how committed I am to ending abortion. You better try something different because what you’re trying to do here isn’t working.
Jasper,
I don’t really want to answer who I voted for because it will just pigeon-hole me with the people who follow this blog. I joined the blog yesterday because I was disappointed about a sister in Christ (Jill) resorting to name calling a public official in authority who is the president-elect.
I want to stay on topic because whether I say I voted for McCain, Obama, Barr or Nader, I will anger somebody unnecessarily and change the discussion from (a) how we conduct ourselves as Christians in a public forum to (b) what our political beliefs or affiliations are.
I’m pro-life (against abortion) and have participated in pro-life demonstrations while living in Kansas some years ago. I’m against abortion because in 1971 I witnessed aborted babies in large jars at a hospital and was shocked and disgusted. I was only 16 and didn’t know anything about abortions, legal or otherwise, but the memory has lingered with me for almost forty years.
I also admire the work of Dr. C. Everett Koop and Dr. Francis Schaeffer who were both adamantly opposed to abortion. They co-authored “What Ever Happened to the Human Race?”, a Christian response to the issues of abortion and euthanasia. Although written in 1978, it’s still a great primer on the topic for Christians to discover the issues involved.
God bless you and keep you.
Oops! Looks like HisMan has had more coffee!!
God bless you brother! I promise I’ll pray for you.
:)
Woe to the Obamanation who funds genocidal House of Horrors throughout our land and calls himself a disciple of Jesus Christ. Woe to the pastors of “Christian” churches where this mockery is supported. I heard that 50% of black children conceived these days are aborted. How many of these churches speak out against the genocide. You cannot call yourself Christian and support tearing children from their mother’s wombs. Woe, woe, woe I say. I have yet to see how any Christian could support him in this. I know Jesus wanted us to unite as Christians, but he did not want us to unite with the devil. I cannot and will NOT stand in Christian communion with anybody who stands in support of tearing children from their mother’s womb. If there is a Christian out there who can, then tell me what part of Christ’s life or teaching you use to reconcile your actions. Woe I say. Woe, woe woe
And you CaryChristian. You would try to silence Jill from speaking out against a man who uses his strength and influence to fund such an intrinsically evil and barbaric scourge upon our nation. Woe to you Carl…. You’d be better to stop and choose sides carefully my Christian brother. Cause you will answer to that Holy Spirit on judgement day.
Whoa on those woes, truthseeker, eh?
Should have read:
Woe to you Cary…. You’d be better to stop and choose sides carefully my Christian brother. Cause you will answer to that Holy Spirit on judgement day.
And I am not trying to attack you Cary. It is with the greatest love that I direct this message to my Christian brethren.
Why Erin? Why oh why oh why?
“I want to stay on topic because whether I say I voted for McCain, Obama, Barr or Nader, I will anger somebody unnecessarily and change the discussion from (a) how we conduct ourselves as Christians in a public forum”
Ok, this is not about how we conduct ourselves. This is about ending abortion. We just elected a president who is a radical pro-abort.
Jesus is not a wimp, He spoke forcefully against evil. He mission was not to make nice with everybody but to spread the Truth.
Cary:
I don’t drink coffee. Very, very bad for the heart.
I’m a health nut but a sane one. I love steak and chicken and fish and don’t believe all this stuff about cholesterol. I don’t drink except for a glass of wine and a microbrew once in a while and, I don’t smoke.
However, you haven’t answered most of my questions and that’s your privilege. However, it’s a sign of a lack of respect, especially when I took the time to definitively answer yours. When you pray you must do all the talking.
I will continue to speak truth to this blog. That’s it.
Truthseeker:
Jesus loved children. He said we must become as children to see the Kingdom. He warned all as to what would happen if we mistreated children. If we have the mind of Christ albeit in a finite body and can’t tolerate abortion, how do you think Jesus, with an infinite mind, feels about abortion?
How he will deal with people that perform, support and promote abortion apart from repentance is actaully too horrific for me to think about. The pro-aborts laugh at us saying this. Stand firm brother, keep the faith, the morning is coming and the darkness will soon be swallowed up in life.
HEY! My dad works for Hormel! Spam pays our bills! Don’t knock the Hormel!
;-)
Erin – ha! No problem with Spam paying the bills.
“James” sent me his theme song:
Oh SPAM! Oh SPAM! Gourmet delight!
My food by day, my dreams by night.
To carve, to slice, to dice you up –
pureed in a blender and sipped from a cup.
What shining deity from Olympus knelt
down to the earth and hog butt smelt?
Creating then man’s eternal desire
for swine entrails congealed by fire.
On some corporate farm, a pig has died.
Eyes, tongue, and snout end up inside
that cube of SPAM hidden in the can
I now hold in my trembling hand.
More than mere food, SPAM is for me
a hedonistic expression of gluttonous glee.
Mottled with pork fat, the pink cube engrosses.
My mouth takes it in, my intestine disposes.
Long have my arteries clogged to the sound
of sizzling SPAM when there’s no one around –
furtively chewing or swallowing whole.
Triple bypass by forty, my medical goal.
Other processed meat products I’ve tried or declined
Vienna Sausages, Treet, even pig’s feet in brine.
Though each may be tasty in different ways,
none matches SPAM for gelatinous glaze.
That glistening pinkness beckons me
with gristle, fat, and BHT.
Oh SPAM, my SPAM – the taste, the smell!
The sacred meat product, from Hormel.
Thank you for the kind words HisMan.
Truthseeker,
You need to be a TRUTHSPEAKER, too, brother. I would NOT silence Jill; neither have I suggested that. The work that she does is important.
But it’s equally important that she conduct herself in a Christ-like manner. Calling Obama a barbarian and Nazi is not Christ-like.
Good heavens! I can hardly believe that I need to explain that to another Christian.
I’m trying to decide if between you and HisMan whether it makes any sense for me to stay on this blog. Both you fellows seem to be just a little out in left field with your proclamations and judgments.
I hope that in person that each of you is a lot more reasonable and a lot less crazy. Not sure whether you guys are joking around with me or dead serious. Hmmm…
Why don’t we take a vote? This is a democracy (last I heard we hadn’t become socialists).
Anyone that would like me to stay on the blog, send out a shout. Anyone that would like me to leave, you go ahead and shout out, too.
I’m a pretty reasonable fellow, although I’m not half the things I’ve been called today on this blog. You are the jury and I’ll let you decide if I should stay.
“Unless I shall be convinced by the testimonies of the Scriptures or by clear reason … I neither can nor will make any retraction, since it is neither safe nor honorable to act against conscience. Here I stand. I can do no other.” (Martin Luther)
Cary – I’m afraid you lost most of them when you stated that your son and daughter in-law were church supported missionaries in the inner city of Pittsburgh. Assisting minorities or those less fortunate in any shape or form is frowned upon as “liberal” and considered to be supportive of President-Elect Obama’s supposed agenda to undermine the integrity of this great country.
yllas: Your words verbatim:
“No one has a good arguemnt against abortion, they just think they do”.
Which is why no one has a good argument against legal murder in your magical world of absolute self truth.
yllas, you’re contradicting yourself (“legal murder”).
The least you could do is spell things correctly. Why not just settle down, take time to actually think about things, and be at least halfways rational?
And quoting in context would be good, too.
Anyway, you asked my opinion and I gave it. I’m honest, unlike you.
It’s a given that some people think they have a good argument against legal abortion.
Do I think they have a good enough argument, that we take away the freedom that women have in the matter? No.
Take all your silliness, for example. Does it mean that we should attempt to bring legal force against a pregnant woman that doesn’t do what you want her to do?
Again, I sure don’t think so.
CaryChristian,
who did you vote for?
Jasper- Who cares?
unborn children.
Cary,
What do you call someone who holds fundraisers to keep it legal to deliver babies to their shoulders and stab them in the head with a scissors and suck their brain out so that you can delievr the baby dead instead of alive? Would you call that barbaric? Would a person who did such things be a barbarian?
Wow:
“Cary gets away with saying that there won’t be as many caucasians as asians, etc., etc.” and you don;t make a peep?
But Change is All You Get (no cash):
I happen to serve on two charitable boards that reaches thousands of youths, many of them black every year.
In fact, I am commissioner of a football league that reaches out to inner city youth and this as an missionaty effort.
This takes hundreds of hours each year. I take no fees.
I have spent many, many days and weeks and months building homes for poor people in Mexico in Tijuana, in Rocky Point, in Rosarita.
I had a homeless, alcoholic native American live in my house for the last 10 years. A guy who was abused as a child and calls me and my wife mom and dad.
I support many missionary efforts overseas and hope to go into guerilla infested Burman to minister to the Karen people and also to Uganda.
The difference is that I do this as part of the church spreading the Gospel, not the government spreading their satanically inspired version of the gospel, Liberalism, abortion, and gay rights, etc.
Tell me this Change: What percentage of your gross income did you give to your church over the last 10 years? Don’t tell me? Like Joe Biden who made over $2,000,000 gave less than $3,000 to charity. And how much did your messiah give?
I understand he gave a little more that $20,000 to Wright’s church in the time he spent there. Peanuts for a guy that made $4,000,000 last year.
You know the problem with you Libs. You want to keep your own money but take other people’s money to give away and then call that noble. Very twisted.
So take your assinine comments and shove them.
Cary, I vote that you decide for yourself. I guess I’m pro-choice like that.
@Jasper: Pathos for the lose.
Cary, wouldn’t you say that the following is very, very anti-Christian language?
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’
Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; now fill up what your ancestors measured out!
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna?”
Also, Jill and company, do the Math on the Supreme Court before you totally freak out. The oldest judges are all liberals. They are the most likely to die/retire. Even if Obama gets to replace four justices with die-hard pro-aborts (which is EXTREMELY unlikely), he’s still just replacing pro-aborts with pro-aborts. We’ll still have four pro-lifers on the Supreme Court along with a fifth judge, a judge we may be able to have be pro-life as long as pro-life candidates win in either 2012 or 2016.
Cary,
Is it unChristian call a torturer of kittens a barabarian? I use that analogy for you Jess.
“harass clients? I know that the local sidewalk counselors merely want to offer alternatives and support for these women. However, every time they try to offer help, the death-scorts drown them out with a LEAF BLOWER or loud music.”
Posted by: LizFromNebraska at November 7, 2008 5:32 PM
-If you physically try to block someone from entering a building, scream at them and tell them they’re the mother of a dead baby and headed to hell, or camp in front of a doctor’s residence with signs, bullhorns and threatening leaflets, I do consider that harassment and therefore, you could be jeopardizing your right to protest peacefully with behavior that toes the ethical/legal line.
And just to balance the scales here – there actually were Catholic protesters organized outside our clinic last weekend (my first ones!), the most I’ve ever seen (usually just an old guy w/pamphlets). The organized quietly and peacefully and then left. And no, to my knowledge this did not impede or stop any of the morning appointments.
I am going to say a few prayers and put my babies to bed. Talk at ya’ll later.
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.
@Jasper: Pathos for the lose.
I don’t know what that means Rae-Rae..
By the way, all of you people who are just so upset about Jill using the word “barbarian” need to shut up and go look at these:
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/index.htm
Look at the corpses of those children slaughtered in the name of “choice”, which Barack Insane Obama wholeheartedly supports, then come back here and tell Jill how “unChristian” it is of her to use the word “barbarian” to describe someone who supports such unspeakable evil.
@Jasper: Pathos = appeal to emotion.
I don’t fall for appeals to emotion.
Did we call Hitler barbaric?
No, we have had more smears of lies from the Dems this year than all previous campaigns from them. Barbaric infanticide doesn’t look like a false claim. 46 million dead is barbaric.
“I don’t fall for appeals to emotion.”
Rae, are we robots or humans?
@Jasper: I don’t make decisions based on emotion, or at least I try not to because generally- when I make decisions based on emotion, it usually screws me over and gets me into a TON of trouble.
90% of Obama voters decided based on emotion. That’s why they’re going to have a rude awakening when they find out that his “change” is not the change they have been waiting for.
@John: My guess is, there will be no “change”. It’ll be the same old crap, nothing will get done. Business as usual in Washington.
I’m so glad I wasted my vote this year by writing in “Stephen T. Colbert”.
I undertand what you mean Rae.
But compassion for the unborn is good.
Rae, are we robots or humans?
Posted by: Jasper at November 7, 2008 10:28 PM
We are devo.
John, Jasper, xppc, Truthy:
The hearts of pro-aborts are veiled. We find ourselves in a vice. A vice screwed tight between the forces of compassion for the innocent and the apathy of those that either can’t see or refuse to see.
We are bewildered and rendered confused as to the very existence of people like Hal, Cameron, SoMG, PPC, Reality and all those they represent. We ask how can human beings be so cold, so vile, so uncaring and so rebellious, hiding behind their self-made masks so they cannot even see themselves? They say to themselves, “if there was a God, surely He would not allow a baby to perish, to be tron asunder”. They then conclude, there must not be a God, therefore, this is all there is.
We are attacked by believers and non-believers alike. We are the Noahs and the John the Baptists of this godless age. We don’t belong here and our demise is prayed for. Our heads are set to be torn off sans the protection of God Himself.
Those that would murder innocent children in the womb cannot see what we see or feel what we feel. God has given us special types of hearts, hearts that see into His heart, that feel what His heart feels. Hearts with a passion for life and a disdain for evil. Hearts that cry out for justice while they wretch in agony for answers. It’s the same heart that throws itself on a grenade to save its fellow comrade in arms, it’s the heart that cries at a wedding, I know I do. It’s a heart that shrieks at the welp of a puppy in the distance, a heart that wouldn’t think twice about diving in front of a truck to save a child.
We walk alone we do. We think to ourselves, how God, why God, when God. Why do I feel so passionately for the children that are being torn and ripped to shreds, millions of them every year? I have so much else to do God, why me? The burden is almost too much to bear.
And Father, we ask you, how did you let this man become our leader? Have you betrayed us God, are we wrong? What’s the plan coach? Silence. We know you are there. We wait, we feel. We continue to act as you have made us, we fight, we persavere.
We see the devastation of abortion. We see the injustice of abortion. We see 50,000,000 precious lives snuffed out, on the trash heap of human history and no apparent answer. We are mocked, spit at, reviled, we are you God, we are you on the cross and you bid us to forgive. So difficult God, so difficult.
We wonder, God do you feel what we feel, do you see what we see, do you care? When God, when will you stop the holocaust? The chains are heavier now God but we sense your strong and steady hand….one more day, one more day.
And He answers: “My warriors, I see, I feel, I know. My heart breaks. My children who I love choose to not follow me. I wait and through you I beg, I plead, I warn, I chide, I discipline, I rebuke, but still, those answering are few. Soon, time will be replaced with eternity and there will be no more evil, no more tears, no more death, no more anking for everything will be known. I know you long for such a place and I promise you it is coming. Bring as many with you as you can, bring them to me, bring them to me so they will not be forgotten forever.”
@Jasper: Compassion for the already born is good too, but that’s irrelevant to the topic at hand…
Devon: We are devo.
Haha.
My baby took our love
And then she rolled it up
Rolled it up a hill
Like a ball of snow
CaryChristian
CaryChristian,
I vote you stay.
Thank you for sharing about your brother. You and he will be in my prayers. May God’s peace be with you.
Sorry for the double – half posts. I don’t know if its me or my computer. Ugh!
“We are bewildered and rendered confused as to the very existence of people like Hal, Cameron, SoMG, PPC, Reality and all those they represent. We ask how can human beings be so cold, so vile, so uncaring and so rebellious, hiding behind their self-made masks so they cannot even see themselves?”
HisMan, you have plenty of vileness too. You get all sanctimonious, but seriously – talk about “not seeing oneself”….
http://w3.cultdeadcow.com/cms/about.html
This is my response to Bobby Bambino on an older thread……
Bobby Bambino said:
“So I”m not trying to be flippant here, Zeke, but do you believe that FOCA passing would be in our best interest? Because if it does what some think it will do, it will overturn ALL those minor exception laws that you talk about- parental notification, waiting period, etc. What do you think?”
That’s my point exactly! If Obama passes FOCA then that will show that the strategy of the INCREMENTALISTS was a very dumb strategy! That we should have focused on PERSONHOOD – the scientific fact that human life begins at conception INSTEAD OF trying to pass pro-abortion laws with minor exceptions in them like the vile parental consent law.
It would be AWESOME if things could really get going on a LOCAL LEVEL Jill Stanek. BUT – and its a huge but – when you try to get a greater number of people involved in bringing about the kind of effects that will save babies from being murdered in their area that is much more difficult because many people find it easier than ever today to make a commitment and then back out of it for whatever reason.
Looking at it on paper, it should be PRETTY EASY to shut down every abortion clinic in the Indianapolis area over a 6 month period if not quicker than that.
Have you noticed how many churches are WITHIN A 2 MILE RADIUS OF AN ABORTION CLINIC? There’s a LOT of them!
For example, if you go onto Yahoo! Yellow Pages and put in as the central search address the killing center on 1201 N. Arlington Ave in Indianapolis and search for CHURCH you will find OVER 60 CHURCHES that are located within the 2 mile radius!
If each church had an average of 12 people that would commit to coming out and demonstrating twice a month that would result in 720 people from those churches pushing for that killing center to move twice each month.
Or, if they wanted to break that number down into groups of 4 then we would have 180 people who would be outside the killing center twice each week!
That all looks really good and feasible when looked at on here, but people just aren’t willing to do waht is needed to make such a rality happen. Its just too inconvenient for them or they don’t have that big of a problem with murdering babies in their church’s neighborhood that they would take time twice a month to stop it from occuring in their area.
Zeke,
I don’t fight for Parental Consent laws in order to allow abortion with parental consent. Is it vile to fight to protect my children from the predatory practices of Planned Parenthood?
HisMan,
I am proud to stand in communion with your spirit in the name of Jesus Christ.
truthseeker wrote:
“Is it vile to fight to protect my children from the predatory practices of Planned Parenthood?”
When the law ends with “….and then you can kill the baby” then YES you are doing something TRULY VILE when you promote the passing of a pro-abortion law that will help keep abortion legal for decades and justifies abortion as long as a parent is notified in some way that their grandchild is about to be murdered.
If you really want to protect your children from Planned Barrenhood then HOMESCHOOL them and keep them away from the public school system along with monitoring their activities which means practically constant parental supervision.
CaryChristian said:
“Calling Obama a barbarian and Nazi is not Christ-like.”
You’re such an ignoramous Cary. And here is the proof.
Jesus Christ called people bad names in the bible.
Matthew 7:6 “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Matthew 15:26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw [it] to the little dogs.”
Mark 7:27 But Jesus said to her, “Let the children be filled first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw [it] to the little dogs.”
FYI – “dog” is a term that Jews (including the King of the Jews and God Himself Jesus Christ) used to refer to Gentiles (Gentiles are non-Jews if you didn’t know).
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 12:34 “Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
Matthew 23:33 “Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
Matthew 23:15-16 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves. 16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged [to perform it.’]
ITS A FACT: JESUS CHRIST CALLED PEOPLE NAMES WORSE THAN BARBARIAN. YOU ARE THE ONE THAT NEEDS TO START BEING MORE CHRIST-LIKE CARYCHRISTIAN.
If you really want to protect your children from Planned Barrenhood then HOMESCHOOL them and keep them away from the public school system along with monitoring their activities which means practically constant parental supervision.
Posted by: Ezek13:19 at November 8, 2008 12:47 AM
I did and I do. But in order to protect the traditional family, we need to make sure that our rights to parental oversight are protected. The law does not end with “then you can kill the baby”. It just says that yo can’t kill the baby without parental notification.
CaryChristian,
Just thought I’d speak up and say I enjoy your posts.
A new generation and motivation of pro-lifers is coming, and the approach is different. Don’t be discouraged by the other pro-lifers attacking you. They are genuinely upset about McCain losing, and apparently for some it is all they can think about. It just might take them a while to calm down and address the need to change the strategy.
Again Doug.
Soo, dude, since Jill payed a price for her morality, and morality without sacrifice is just another empty piece of propaganda, worth as much as your words are Doug, what have you sacrificed for your morality and daily preaching for the legal murder of innocent life?
Some wine?
A trip to a foreign nation where you abuse the poor of that nation?
A dollar given to your favorite abortion clinic?
Tell us, what amount of wealth have you given for your public preaching for the death of innocent human life?
Seems you have forgotten to answer some questions asked of you, dude.
Anyway, you asked my opinion and I gave it. I’m honest, unlike you.
Nope. You made a statment that annihilates argument and reasoned discourse with you dude.
Which is why Chris trys to educate you, but you play the sophist and deconstruct the accepted meaning of “begging the question”, into what only your closed mind can accept to win a argument, that begins and is principled in you, and from you, that knowing that no one has a good argument against you, they just think they do.
That is why you still think your a “honest” person, but is actually a total rejection of honoring another person’s argument. There is a intrinsic dishonesty within in dude, that is revealed in your knowing that no one is able to have a good or true argument against you, and your dogmatic mind.
No one has a good argument against you Doug, you win every argument you engage in, before there is engagement.
And you go looking to argue with the poor waitress that was only doing what the law required of her.
That is the acme for your personality and character, from being a person with a closed mind that is completly closed to reasoned discourse.
And why? Because you know before the opponent says or writes a word, that you know, that no one has a good argument against you dude. That is dogma hiding as reason.
Your motivation for actually bullying a argument out of a poor waitress, under the guise of logic and reason, was like all who think with their pleasure first, and are arguing for their desires, which doesn’t contain one iota of logic within the false reasoning offered up for the argument. All the reason, all the argument directed towards that poor, was sophistry.
The sophistry for “just one more drink”.
Which might be a analogy to your reasoning for the legal execution of innocent human life, from noting more then a act of pleasure.
To engage under false pretenses a discussion or argument with anothet person, and know you have in your dogmatic mind, that invincible ignorance of knowing that no one has a good argument against you dude, and any action you have committed your will to, by reason of emotion, not logic.
Failed to answer the below questions from the “honest sophistry” of Doug.
To be sure that your not lying Doug, list the words and sentences you have mislead others on matters of abortion, by writing those false words about abortion.
But, what does the dogmatist do when he has written false words to Bethany, and that must be open to the fact that Doug is writing a good false argument to Bethany?
He just thinks; No one has a good argument against my false words(you admitted such false truth already, dude) in matters of abortion, they just think they do.
Another words, your unable to be a trustworthy person on matters of abortion, from offering false arguments as truth to Bethany and all that read your argument as being truth.
You are,and have written false arguments as truth, from ignorance,or from knowing that no one has a good argument against abortion, and truth has no worth anyway, since no one has a good argument against me anyway.
The basic mind of a liar.
Ezek13:19
Regarding your point about churches in the neighborhoods of abortion clinics: I honestly believe that many Christians feel overwhelmed or insignificant in the face of abortion, unsure of what they could do. That is where the value of something clear and defined like 40DaysforLife comes in, along with the reminder that it’s not really what we do, but what God does in response to our willingness.
We frequently have an insert to our bulletin, and often a speaker from the respective missions present to give an announcement about their work, but that person comes and goes, collecting a donation, yes, and perhaps generating some interest in regular giving or volunteer work, but I would hazard a guess that this happens 20 out of the 52 weeks. I agree with Jill about working on the local level, but believe we could overcome the problem you point out (and what I see as a source of difficulty) by appealing to a congregation by asking who feels this upon their heart to act as some sort of “representative” on behalf of the unborn.
I have just learned of 40DaysforLife. Though I’ve been pro-life since in-utero, Obama’s election has moved me from merely contributing and voting pro-life to full-blown activism. I will be speaking with my pastor about sharing 40DaysforLife with the others, and know that as someone they already know and will see each week, we will have a good number.
We are a prolific family, and have already thought of many cousins, nieces, and the like to whom I can appeal to do the same in their respective churches.
PIP.
I gonna say your a person that fails to believe what you preach.
Are you pro life, against abortion on demand?
You will get a abortion, when your belief in not getting pregnant, unless you planned the pregnancy, , demands a abortion, from believing your belief in a planned pregnancy fails.
That you will argue against or for, that statement only increases your false belief/practices as being pro life.
Too much to digest PIP?
Your a person that is not pro-life. Period.
Doug.
To be sure that your not lying Doug, list the words and sentences you have mislead others on matters of abortion, by writing those false words about abortion to this board again.
What statments did you write to Bethany,et al, that were false truths, and be more specific then that sophist reply you gave me.
Such as.
I Doug, wrote a false true statment to Bethany, and here is that false true statement I shall write again those false true statements to the best of my ability to remember those statements, that were not true words in matters of abortion.
Rewrite those statements dude to me, and the board once again.
Come on dude, what was those false true statments you wrote to Bethany?
Thanks for this post, Jill. You’ve made me realize that you guys have lost the fight for next 30 years, if not forever. You won’t be able to overturn Roe, and you are going to become increasingly shrill (“we elected a Barbarian”) until you have no influence upon the populace at all. Did it ever occur to you that if you want to win this battle you’ve got to win moderates? You’re just preaching to the choir now, and I’ll lay big money that the choir dwindles in size over the ensuing decades. I think we’ll look back and see 4 November 2008 as the day that the extremist anti-abortion movement was finally defeated, for the good of the country.
Did it ever occur to you that if you want to win this battle you’ve got to win moderates?
Yeah, that really worked for John McCain. He is proof that reaching across the aisle doesn’t work. http://anncoulter.com/cgi-local/printer_friendly.cgi?article=282
I think we’ll look back and see 4 November 2008 as the day that the extremist anti-abortion movement was finally defeated, for the good of the country.
Are we supposed to be surprised that you believe this?
Don’t you see that McCain lost the election BECAUSE he stopped appealing to moderates with the Palin pick and his hard-right swing at the Saddleback forum? The real McCain (circa year 2000) would have stood a chance in this election, esp. if he’d picked Tom Ridge as his VP.
The K
Is this gentle and non-barbaric?
When you say choice – is this what you mean?
We discuss things in the abstract, but a picture is worth a thousand words.
I refuse to discuss abortion in the abstract, because it’s not a “concept” or just simply an idea – it’s reality.
So let’s get real.
How about this? Is this civil?
The K:
Do this in moderation – right?
Bethany,
You are so right about McCain — his popularity grew only because of Sarah Palin — because she is conservative.
Those pictures break my heart. Abortion is absolutely diabolical.
How is carrying a baby for nine months and giving it up if one can’t take care of it more difficult for a woman than resorting to this?
Here’s the truth for anyone that has reservations about name calling, or whether pro-lifers are extremists, or whether this is all an exercise in freedom and civil rights.
There is no difference between what’s depicted in my posts above and what’s depicted below:
(photo courtesy of http://www.shamash.org)
(Dead victims courtesy of Nazi Germany)
Oh – wait – I’m wrong.
We can stop the barbaric activities that are taking place against the unborn.
Now.
Jill, remember this fight isn’t over yet. Obama must still get pass Philip Berg and the Supreme Court:
U. S. SUPREME COURT AWAITS RESPONSE TO
BERG’S WRIT OF CERTIORARI
FROM OBAMA, DNC and Co-DEFENDANTS
(Contact information and PDF at end)
(Lafayette Hill, Pennsylvania – 11/07/08) – Philip J. Berg, Esquire, the Attorney who filed suit against Barack H. Obama challenging Senator Obama’s lack of “qualifications” to serve as President of the United States filed a Writ of Certiorari in the United States Supreme Court on October 30, 2008, requesting review of the United States District Court, Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Judge Surrick’s Dismissal of Philip J. Berg’s lawsuit against Barack H. Obama, Jr., the DNC and the other co-Defendants. Accordingly, the U. S. Supreme Court has set dates in which Barack Obama, the DNC and all co-Defendants are to respond to the Writ, which is on or before December 1, 2008.
Mr. Berg remarked today, “I look forward to receiving Defendant Obama’s response to the Writ and am hopeful the U. S. Supreme Court will review Berg v. Obama. I believe Mr. Obama is not a constitutionally-qualified natural-born citizen and is ineligible to assume the office of President of the United States.”
Mr. Berg’s case, Berg vs. Obama was dismissed from the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania, Docket # 08-cv-4083 for lack of standing. Mr. Berg filed a Writ of Certiorari for review of the case and an injunction to stay the election pending review. Justice Souter denied the injunction. It is expected that the Court will decide whether or not to review Berg v. Obama after the Defendants file their response, and Mr. Berg has replied to the Defendant’s response.
The Defendants’ response is due by December 1st and Mr. Berg’s reply will be submitted thereafter.
Don’t you see that McCain lost the election BECAUSE he stopped appealing to moderates with the Palin pick and his hard-right swing at the Saddleback forum? The real McCain (circa year 2000) would have stood a chance in this election, esp. if he’d picked Tom Ridge as his VP.
No, K, like Eileen said, his popularity GREW after Sarah Palin because of her true conservative values. Almost no one would have voted for him if it hadn’t been for her.
And now the deafening silence ensues as pro-“choice” people slink away with a mouse click and a sense of disgust at the truth.
I can’t show the pain I hear from women who’ve done this to their children. (You need to speak with them)
I can’t show the tears they cry. (You need to see that in person)
I can’t show the anger of men who’ve had this done to their children when it wasn’t their own choice.
I’ve show you what has been.
And what could have been:
If what you mean by choice, is the difference between life and death, I choose life.
Please stand with me.
Thank you, Chris. Sometimes abortion becomes “just a word” after using it in debate over and over. It’s a good thing for people to be reminded of what it really is. And how horrifying it is.
“And now the deafening silence ensues as pro-“choice” people slink away with a mouse click and a sense of disgust at the truth.”
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at November 8, 2008 7:17 AM
Um, no – by the looks of it you posted your responses at the crack of dawn on a Saturday, so by default you’re not going to get much response.
And, no it’s not truth. If you want to believe this is the outcome of all abortions – full terms fetuses ripped apart, then there’s part of the problem. You know its not true. You pick out the most graphic shots you can find (the same ones that have been swirling around the PL movement for, oh, years) and claim that this is what we want to see happen. Posting the pictures and waiting for ‘redemption’ from the PC side is the same as asking a blatantly offensive, attacking question and then expecting anyone with a modicum of self respect to answer it.
Maybe they’re pictures from extremely rare, late term abortions, maybe not. There’s lots of things that are bloody and gross and disturbing that happen in medicine.
The bloody picture ‘gotcha’ doesn’t work on me, Chris, sorry.
I’ll tell you what does raise the blood pressure: As for your lovely pics of holocaust victims…way to class up the argument. Stop using someone’s dead, violated ancestors to make a point about abortion. It’s not the same thing and its offensive. If you by chance exposed those pictures to someone who survived that time in history and used these dead for political gain, you would and should be ashamed.
The bloody picture ‘gotcha’ doesn’t work on me, Chris, sorry.
I’ll tell you what does raise the blood pressure: As for your lovely pics of holocaust victims…way to class up the argument. Stop using someone’s dead, violated ancestors to make a point about abortion. It’s not the same thing and its offensive. If you by chance exposed those pictures to someone who survived that time in history and used these dead for political gain, you would and should be ashamed.
Posted by: Danielle at November 8, 2008 8:04 AM
Are you a past and present holocaust denier?
The voice and the pictures of martyrs does touch a few. If you are calloused, it may not. The small ones are just as innocent as the adults.
Are you a past and present holocaust denier? The voice and the pictures of martyrs does touch a few. If you are calloused, it may not. The small ones are just as innocent as the adults.
Posted by: xppc at November 8, 2008 8:09 AM
-Wow, just when I thought it couldn’t get more offensive…
Where did you draw that I was denying the holocaust? Everything I discussed was the complete opposite of that. Lets hope that’s the last time that flaming issue is ever mentioned.
“Thank you, Chris. Sometimes abortion becomes “just a word” after using it in debate over and over. It’s a good thing for people to be reminded of what it really is. And how horrifying it is.”
I agree Bethany.
Danielle: “The bloody picture ‘gotcha’ doesn’t work on me, Chris, sorry.”
…this is the problem, you’ve de-sensitised yourself to the barbaric nature of abortion. Much like the Nazis did to the atrocities of WW2.
To look at those pictures and feels nothing takes an extremely callous heart..the same callous, stone cold heart of the Nazi.
Danielle at November 8, 2008 8:04 AM
Me ashamed? No. I’m not ashamed for exposing the truth.
Maybe not? Why does the old picture depict horror and offend you, but the new color one does not?
Does one photo indicate a justifiable death and the other doesn’t?
Do you deny elective abortion of viable children doesn’t occur in huge numbers?
We both know the procedures, and what happens. We both know how they are suctioned out in pieces and all body parts accounted for.
Is it okay to deny the humanity of one group of people?
Why is it okay to deny humanity to the pre-born and yet uphold it for the Jews?
Weren’t the Jews pre-born at one time?
Why does time matter to you Danielle – why can’t people be terminated at other times of their lives?
Why are only some lives valuable Danielle and not all lives?
But there is far more to this.
You focused on pictures, but not lives, and when I say that, I’m not talking only about pre-born lives, but also the lives of women who share their deep, deep pain and depression because they’ve experienced aborting perfectly healthy children of advanced gestation.
Do they tell you Danielle?
Where is the love and mercy for these women (and their children)?
Is it missing, just like it was during the days of Nazi Germany?
Is it leaving our country now?
We’d like to know.
Danielle, how does this make you feel? Does it affect you?
One last question Danielle:
Had you seen the Holocaust happening, would you have defended the Jews and work passionately to stop it?
off topic:
Liberal Fascism at work:
A man wearing a McCain-Palin T-shirt during a Philadelphia celebration on election night was arrested, cuffed and stuffed into a police cruiser, and supporters said it was for no more than wearing the endorsement of the GOP nominees for president and vice-president.
Although the man protested that he didn’t want to cause any trouble, officers manhandled him and arrested him, the video posted on YouTube shows.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94N1TkuLWss
Can someone tell me how to post photos on the site please?
I have some personal photos of Sarah Palin when she was here in Phoenix I’d like to show you all.
Approximately 4000 of the babies torn from their mothers women in violence would be protected by law in Ireland. Why? Cause they will not be lead by barbarians.
Even France outlaws all abortions after 10 weeks without two doctors verifying serious medical need. Tell me Danieele, are you on the side of the barbarians who believes abortion should be allowed in the US up until the third trimester of gestation. How about up until the 20th week because with medical advance that is now the point of viability? Guess what? You’d be considered a babarian in France and Ireland too.
Do you want America to be a beacon of justice and life and have moral standing in the world, or do you not really give a rats ass what the rest of the world thinks. Obviously 99% of the people in France who said they supported Obama didn’t know hiw barbaricly he treats unborn children.
Your anti-life days of hiding your evil ways under a “pro-choice” banner are numbered. Most Americans are not pro-choice to tear babies from the womb without restrictions that are much greater than we currently have. Obama is just going to make the pendulum swimg even faster in the pro-life direction because, though he got elected for many “other” reasons, America definitely does not stand with him on this issue. And we don’t stand with you on this issue either. Pro-deathers are enjoying a short-lived celebration that such a radical anti-death person got elected as president. Tell me Danieele, where do you draw the gestational line that seperates an abortion from being humane or barbaric? Is it based on viability in your eyes? Do people who cannot survive on their own deserve to be torn to pieces?
Should have read:
Danielle,
Approximately 4000 of the babies torn from their mothers women in violence every day in the US would be protected by law in Ireland. And
“caregivers” like you who support it would not be needed Danielle. Why? Cause Ireland will not be lead by barbarians.
Thank you to the following for their kind remarks and encouragement to stay on this blog: Bobby Bambino, Carla, PrettyinPink, DeeL, and Chris Arsenault. I appreciate intelligent and civil discourse wherever I find it.
Thank you to Ezek13:19 and John Lewandoski for their comments. I’m not quite sure they realize I’m pro-life but among some of the pro-lifers on this blog, it would appear that they eat their young like some wild animals do (I’m speaking figuratively but I can imagine the retorts this line will garner).
Thank you to Truthseeker. You made me laugh, brother, when you said you were pro-choice when it came to me deciding whether or not to stay on this blog. That was a really funny thing to say and I’m still laughing about it as I type this. And I will also do as you suggest. :)
I’m still confused by HisMan, however. He appears to be very knowledgeable of Scripture, working towards a doctorate in theology, a great family man with many interesting things to say. But I’m hopeful that in person he is a different kind of person than how he presents himself on this blog.
In one of his last postings he told somebody to “shove it”. That is just incredibly rude and must of been said in anger. I can’t find a single justification for that kind of remark by a Christian EVER. I checked my Strong’s and NASB Concordance and I can’t find a Bible verse that approves of our saying that to anyone. Perhaps HisMan’s Bible can explain his biblical justification for such a remark (hint: THERE ISN’T ANY).
Perhaps he forgets Jesus’ statement: “Whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, “Raca!” shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, “You fool!” shall be in danger of hell fire.” (Matt 5:22).
I know for a fact that many who write in this blog neglect this exhortation from the apostle Paul: “Let your speech always be with grace, seasoned as it were with salt, so that you may know how to respond to each person.” (Colossians 4:6) and the preceeding verse: “Conduct yourselves with wisdom toward outsiders, making the most of the opportunity.” (Colossians 4:5).
To John Lewandoski: Doesn’t appear you’ve read all my posts. You quote Jesus correctly as he condemned the Pharisees and religious leaders of his day. He always criticized them because of their HYPOCRISY, a lesson which many on this blog might do well to learn. One of my points in an earlier post is that Jesus had both the authority and the wisdom to criticize the religious leaders of his day. But I also imagine that those responding to this post in a negative manner will be far too busy trying to remove the splinters in my eyes to focus on the logs in their own.
Although Christians have authority, very few, especially on this post, have the wisdom to be making judgmental pronouncements as demonstrated by the abuse they heap on their brothers and sisters in Christ. Quite simply, wisdom is not demonstrated by telling someone to “shove it”.
I encourage everyone of the faith to study the Book of Proverbs. Especially those portions of Proverbs that concern speech, wisdom and civility. Please don’t wrap yourselves in the robes of Christ then damn and make personal attacks against those whose opinions differ from your own.
Like the vast majority of you, I oppose abortion in any form. But unlike some of you, I’m not willing to resort to name calling or rudeness to support a pro-life agenda. In order to be “lights of the world” and “salt of the earth” we need to not act like the world.
I HAVE A RECOMMENDATION FOR HISMAN AND TRUTHSEEKER WHICH I HOPE THEY WILL DO: Make copies of your posts and take them to your pastor and ask him what he thinks of them. Don’t be selective, give him copies of everything you can find. If you feel you are smarter or more spiritually mature than your pastor, then take them to someone you believe is your spiritual mentor and who resonates Christ in his life, then ask his or her opinion of what you’ve written. To demonstrate that I’m practicing what I’ve preached, I’m making copies today and giving them to my pastor tomorrow and asking him what he thinks of what I’ve written. If you aren’t afraid to have your writings scrutinized…
I expect to have what I just wrote picked apart by HisMan, Truthseeker and others. I’m afraid they just haven’t understood ANYTHING I’ve written or the spirit in which it was written.
But that won’t stop me from praying for them so that they write Psalm 139:23, 24 on their hearts:
“Search me, O God, and know my heart; try me and know my anxious thoughts; and see if there be any hurtful way in me, and lead me in the everlasting way.” :)
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.
Hisman, send me the photos and I’ll post them for you, or I can send you an email telling you how to do it. :)
CaryChristian,
My pastor speaks out frequently aqbout the gravity of sin that is abortion. My Church collects funds for crisis pregnancy venters. My Assiociate pastor has joined with us on Face the Truth tours and gives us his blessing. I get my guidance from the Catechism of the Catholic Church which excommunicates anybody who engage in abortion or supports an abortion from the body of Christ.
Please do me this one favor when you have your pastor look over your posts. Have “your” pastor look at my posts and critique them. Then, I would greatly appreciate if you could help me by getting him/her to answer the following one question for me. Ask him straight up if he thinks it is barbaric to deliver a baby to the shoulders and stab said baby in the head with a scissors and such the babies brains out so that you can deliver the baby dead. If he says yes, then I would like his opinion on why somebody like Barack Hussein Obama who would spend their time and efforts holding fundraisers and orchestrating legal maneuvers to make it possible would not be called a barbarian. I thank you sincerely for making this effort on my behalf so that I may see things from your pastors thoughtful perspective.
Yours in the Holy Spirit. truthseeker
CaryChristian:
Here is the part of the Catechism that I was referring to:
2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. “A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,”77 “by the very commission of the offense,”78 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.79 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.
If you haven’t done so already, then I sincerely recommend you reaqd the Catechism. It contains the wisdom and doctrine according to the Church of Jesus Christ as passed down in succession through the hands of Church leaders since St. Peter, to whom Jesus entrusted his Church on earth.
I love this Psalm. It strengthens my soul with perserverence in the pro-life battle.
A psalm of David. I sing of love and justice; to you, LORD, I sing praise. I follow the way of integrity; when will you come to me? I act with integrity of heart within my royal court. I do not allow into my presence anyone who speaks perversely. Whoever acts shamefully I hate; no such person can be my friend. I shun the devious of heart; the wicked I do not tolerate. Whoever slanders another in secret I reduce to silence. Haughty eyes and arrogant hearts I cannot endure. I look to the faithful of the land; they alone can be my companions. Those who follow the way of integrity, they alone can enter my service.
No one who practices deceit can hold a post in my court. No one who speaks falsely can be among my advisors. Each morning I clear the wicked from the land, and rid the LORD’S city of all evildoers.
Psalm 101
Not to take away from everything you’ve said, CaryChristian, but Martin Luther–whose writings you recommended in an early comment on this thread–could also be very rude. I’m not aware of the interaction between John Calvin and Martin Luther, if there was any, but I can’t imagine Mr. Calvin would have approved of Mr. Luther’s abrupt manner. Or maybe I misrepresent Mr. Calvin as being more polite than he actually was.
Calling Mr. Obama a “barbarian” is surprisingly tame. My ancestors were Germanic barbarians. Barbarians weren’t afraid of gore, but Mr. Obama probably is, i.e. he would rather have barbarians do the dirty work. President Andrew Jackson was said to have been a barbarian. I’d rather be a barbarian than a yahoo. I think of Mr. Clinton as someone who comes close to being a yahoo.
Calling Mr. Obama a “Nazi” is much more accurate. The Nazis were civilized. They believed in law and order and often had model families. Yet while they themselves may have been personally uninvolved, they supported the Holocaust. They killed many innocent people, not to forward their war on the world, but simply because they defined them as subhuman.
In general, I agree with your comment at 12:02 p.m. On the one hand, I think you make a good point about not unnecessarily offending people. On the other hand, I think that people like Doug and Hal need to be bluntly reminded sometimes what they actually stand for, MURDER. They chat pleasantly, but they propagate a cruel lie. Then again, so do all unbelievers. So also so often do Christians, every one of them in the process of sanctification.
I’m curious: would you make a big deal about, “Take a hike!”? I suppose you would want to see the context in which it was said, and what the person to whom it was said had said.
CaryChristian,
If they built killing fortress next door to your house and you saw mothers bringing unwanted children to be slaughtered would you continue to be the “light of the world” and “salt of the earth” by refraining from calling them barbarians? Wake up!!!!! Obama plans on increaing the funding for these throughout our nation. And when he uses your tax money to pay for the killing, will that make any difference to you? What will it take in order for you to feel enough righteous indignation to call Obama out on what he reresents. Would you just watch such a public figure who call s himself a Christian acts in a manner that is so gravely against Christ’s teaching without warning others of his hypocrisy? I do not hold it against you personally, I just don’t call that turning the other cheek, I call it turning away while others malign the teachings of Jesus. Perhaps we are cut from different molds. If somebody threatens the lives and souls of people I am willing to speak out in indignation about what I see as the truth of their actions. Would you rather watch such a hypocrite lead followers of Jesus’ down te road to damnation? I can live with you and perhaps you are actually living closer to Jesus’ teachnings than me by turning the other cheek to them. Like St.Michael the Archangel, I understand it is not my place to pass judgement on all kind of despicable actions. And I do join with you in asking God to rebuke such people. But I cannot, and never will be able to find peace if I let the work of my hands (tax dollars) be used to tear babies from their mothers wombs. And that is why I cry out in righteous indignation. Unlike you, my soul cannot find peace living in communion with those who would use my efforts to forward such an intrinsically evil thing as abortion. ANd with Barack Obama, both you and I are likely headed on a path where the work of our hands will be used to pay for these murders.
Yours in Jesus Christ, truthseeker
Bethany:
Please send me an e-mail and I will post them.
Hi Jon and Truthseeker,
I concur that Luther definitely had his rough edges. It wasn’t very Christian-like that he railed against the Jews and even suggested their synagogues be burned. It didn’t help when when he gave the Landgrave Philip of Hesse a pass on his bigamy, either.
All of our human heroes have flaws and shortcomings. Part and parcel of being human, I suppose.
We need to be careful not to place ANYONE we admire too high on a pedestal. Jesus is the only one who doesn’t disappoint.
Truthseeker mentions King David. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, David wrote wonderful psalms but he was also an adulterer who had the husband of the woman he cheated with sent to the front lines of battle to be killed. He covered up his sin and the prophet Nathan confronted David and exposed his sin.
The apostle Peter sometimes seems like a walking time bomb in Scripture. He boasts, he lies, he acts violently and impulsively. Galatians records how Peter allied with the judaizers who believed that gentile converts needed to be circumcized until the apostle Paul confronted him.
The apostle Paul had issues, as well. He stood by holding the cloaks of others while Stephen was stoned to death. He and Barnabas couldn’t agree on the utilization of John Mark in their ministry, so they parted ways for a time.
We all have issues and problems in our lives that we struggle with. We have all fallen short of the glory of God.
I used to be a pretty difficult person. I made life difficult for my wife and children when I suffered from the stresses of my employment. My wife felt like she had to act as an intermediary between me and the kids because she knew I could snap. And I’ve had to deal with the affects of depression for many years.
Because of the way I was, I managed to alienate my children and my wife. Nine years ago, my wife sought solace in the arms of another man and cheated on me. The man she cheated with was our music pastor. She got pregnant from that liaison although she miscarried after about a month.
The affair went over for about a year. The man made her feel appreciated in ways that I didn’t. Sad to say he was married to another woman and had three children of his own. Even more sad is that he had affairs with many women during this time and was eventually fired from our church when it was discovered that he had molested a 13 year old boy from our church. He just finished six years in prison as a sex offender.
My wife didn’t reveal her affair until months afterwards. When she told me about her affair and miscarriage, she said she didn’t want to tell me because I once boasted that I would murder any man that she cheated with and she was genuinely worried that I would do just that.
It would have been easy for me to get angry with my wife. It would have been easy to divorce her. It would have been easy to go kill the former music pastor. It would have been easy to hate both of them and to move on with my life.
I chose instead to love my wife in spite of what she had done and forgive the music pastor. I realized how I had contributed to what she had done by my anger and insensitivity. I began to realize how I had hurt her and my children, not physically but verbally, and how I had done so for years. It seemed as though God took the sword out of my hands, the anger that I had suffered from for years, and healed our entire family.
My wife and I went to marriage counseling. After four sessions, the marriage counselor told us, “I’ve been counseling couples for other twenty years and I have never seen such a complete healing and forgiveness between a couple in such a short time in my entire career (just four sessions).”
We renewed our wedding vows just a month later. We sat our children down and told them what happened and they saw the healing that occurred between us. We both spent a great deal of time getting to know our children again.
Danielle and I have now been married almost 26 years. Our children are very close to the two of us and to each other.
My life experience has taught me that just being a Christian doesn’t automatically transform me into a Christ-like man, in either word of deed.
I’ve failed more often than I have succeeded in life. I’ve failed people that were and are dear to me, unleashed anger on people that had opposing opinions, and I used to be convinced I was a pretty righteous guy. I’ve been rude, angry, nasty, argumentative and sometimes just plain evil, all the time thinking I was a pretty nice guy.
I’ve made a conscious effort to be a different person as a way to make amends. I hope this is reflected in my blogs.
Good for you CaryChristian. I am glad you were able to forgive your wife and save your marriage. If I were the father of the thirteen year old that got raped I likely would have killed the predator with a history like that in order to keep him from offending again. That is the likely difference between us. I understand that we go through our lives learning and growing in our ability to discern right from wrong. But the day I see it as o.k. for a woman to get the baby torn from her womb is the day I stopped getting closer to Christ and have turned to getting closer to the devil. Such a fundamental issue that goes so against Jesus teaching of giving of ourselves for the life of another can never be reconciled in the name of Jesus. I have challenged every Christian I know to try and reconcile abortion using the life and teaching of jesus to make their case, and nobdy except for a non-belieber has even tried. Again, I understand we are all sinners, but that does notmean we should not judge actions of others according to our understanding of Christs life and teachings. God bless you and your family, and I look forward to your pastor’s response to my posts.
Especially his response to my post abot Obama being a barbarian.
Truthseeker mentions King David. Through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, David wrote wonderful psalms but he was also an adulterer who had the husband of the woman he cheated with sent to the front lines of battle to be killed. He covered up his sin and the prophet Nathan confronted David and exposed his sin.
Posted by: CaryChristian at November 8, 2008 2:57 PM
The words of the Psalm are completely righteous.
And so David repented and asked forgiveness from the Lord for those sins.
Janet.
Thank you.
Every time a abortion advocate uses, or mentions poverty as a reason for abortion, use that response I gave to that typical liberal posting as Robert.
He went away because every liberal preaches that the poor have a right to revolt against their poverty and change the government that is the source of that poverty, “by any means possible”. Which of course means revolution.
Or, just think, justified revolution by reason of poverty. And watch them defend that poverty government they are actually defending. Which allows such appalling situations, and dilemmas of poverty, that finds its solution in making a citizen murder his own, and then be complicit in murder, as much as the state is complict in allowing that murder of its citizen, from their making poverty so wide spread amongst those citizens.
Ezek13:19 at November 8, 2008 12:16 AM
Thanks for the response. Your point is well taken.
what have you sacrificed for your morality and daily preaching for the legal murder of innocent life?
yllas, yet again you begin with a lie and then waste a bunch of time trying to build on it.
…..
“Anyway, you asked my opinion and I gave it. I’m honest, unlike you.
It’s a given that some people think they have a good argument against legal abortion.
Do I think they have a good enough argument, that we take away the freedom that women have in the matter? No.
Take all your silliness, for example. Does it mean that we should attempt to bring legal force against a pregnant woman that doesn’t do what you want her to do?
Again, I sure don’t think so.”
Nope. You made a statment that annihilates argument and reasoned discourse with you dude.
Nonsense. I’ve noted that you more want the unborn life to continue, and that I more want the woman to retain the freedom she now has. You certainly have no argument that makes me change my position (and the same is of course true for vice-versa), but there’s plenty of room for discourse, despite your dissembling.
…..
What statments did you write to Bethany,et al, that were false truths
So, yllas, after so many of your posts, which are morasses of outright falsehoods, things taken out of context, and the absurd fantasies you conjure, it really means a lot to you to have me say one thing that wasn’t true, huh? ; )
Well okay, humoring you as before, this was Bethany and I talking about consciousness, sentience, etc., and my position was that without a developed cerebral cortex consciousness would not be demonstrably present.
Bethany gave some examples of people that had essentially no developed cortex, yet displayed some consciousness beyond doubt.
I said that I was wrong and that she was right, and she was quite happy with my answer.
Jon, to Cary: In general, I agree with your comment at 12:02 p.m. On the one hand, I think you make a good point about not unnecessarily offending people. On the other hand, I think that people like Doug and Hal need to be bluntly reminded sometimes what they actually stand for, MURDER.
Jon, that demeans your argument, for you’re then banking on a lie. Plenty of Pro-Lifers as well as Pro-Choicers know that abortion is not murder. We know that you don’t like abortion, but your opinion does not make for murder.
If you want credibility, making up untruths and silly stuff isn’t going to get it for you.
I believe that you feel as you say you do, but for you to have to rely on stuff like the above is really saying that you have no meaningful argument with respect to other people.
Doug, is PBA murder?
It is illegal killing, wouldn’t that make it pre-meditated murder if a doctor were to “perform that procedure”?
And wouldn’t that men that Obama staked his name to fighting for the right to perform a procedure that is now considered to be murder?
“So take your assinine comments and shove them.”
Oh HisMan, shame on you.
Cary, fantastic posts. Stay strong against the haters!
Jill,
Have you mentioned to people that they can listen to a recording of the national teleconference that took place Wednesday evening? It was very good.
“So, yllas, after so many of your posts, which are morasses of outright falsehoods, things taken out of context, and the absurd fantasies you conjure, it really means a lot to you to have me say one thing that wasn’t true, huh? ; )”
LOL Doug.
So let’s call it 1 error for you, 4394 for yllas.
is PBA murder?
Truthseeker, no – I don’t think there is any penalty for the woman, and the doctor can get jail time, zero to two years, or a fine, I think. There’s also a provision for the doctor having a hearing to show that it was indeed for the health of the mother.
Bethany gave some examples of people that had essentially no developed cortex, yet displayed some consciousness beyond doubt.
I said that I was wrong and that she was right, and she was quite happy with my answer.
Now THAT was pretty cool. :D
is PBA murder?
Truthseeker, no – I don’t think there is any penalty for the woman, and the doctor can get jail time, zero to two years, or a fine, I think. There’s also a provision for the doctor having a hearing to show that it was indeed for the health of the mother.
Posted by: Doug at November 8, 2008 8:50 PM
Doug, you must be thinking before the Supreme Court banned the procedure. They said there is never a need for the procedure and therefore NO health exception for the mother. I think you must be looking at old case law. Try again. It is always illegal now. And since it is the illegal killing what is your rationale for saying it is not murder?
Murder – the crime of unlawfully killing a person
Do you know of a different definition of murder that you like to use?
Induced abortion is murder because it is a killing prohibited by a greater law than the law of the United States. That law is God’s law. In fact, the laws of the nations of the West were based on Judeo-Christian morality. Now secular humanism is the religion of the majority.
CaryChristian, thanks for your thoughtful reply at 2:57 p.m. on November 8. Your testimony to God’s grace in your life is encouraging.
Again Doug.
Soo, dude, since Jill payed a price for her morality, and morality without sacrifice is just another empty piece of propaganda, worth as much as your words are Doug, what have you sacrificed for your morality and daily preaching for the legal murder of innocent life?
Some wine?
A trip to a foreign nation where you abuse the poor of that nation?
A dollar given to your favorite abortion clinic?
Tell us, what amount of wealth have you given for your public preaching for the death of innocent human life?
Warning, approaching Doug with any argument against abortion, is pre-destined to being defeated by the dogmatic mind that Doug has constructed into a invincible logic of knowing, before you write a word about abortion, that you have “no good argument against abortion, you just think you do”.
Which makes posting to Doug a amusement of mocking his spohistry while he denys the mockery, from knowing that no one can mock Doug, they just think they do.
And why? Because you know before the opponent says or writes a word, that you know, that no one has a good argument against you dude. That is dogma hiding as reason.
Your motivation for actually bullying a argument out of a poor waitress, under the guise of logic and reason, was like all who think with their pleasure first, and are arguing for their desires, which doesn’t contain one iota of logic within the false reasoning offered up for the argument. All the reason, all the argument directed towards that poor, was sophistry.
The sophistry for “just one more drink”.
Which might be a analogy to your reasoning for the legal execution of innocent human life, from nothing more then a act of pleasure.
Mighty quite on that glimpse into your personality towards those that serve you in life.
Another nobody, who didn’t know she was dealing with a person that knew she didn’t have a good argument against that loutish dude, who was abusing her from the “just another drink logic” of Doug.
Are you going to deny that statement that exposes your arguing with her was actually based on the emotional satisfaction of your selfish needs, that put her in jeopardy of losing her job?
So, yllas, after so many of your posts, which are morasses of outright falsehoods, things taken out of context, and the absurd fantasies you conjure, it really means a lot to you to have me say one thing that wasn’t true, huh? ; )
That’s a begining dude.
But, tell me dude, outside of just admitting you were unable to support one false truth you gave to Bethany, are you not absolutely truthful in all the thousands(4339?) of written statments of your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
Have you given a false truth argument to Mary also?
Or, the other hundred or so, pro lifer posters you posted to, which you might have led astray of truth, by reason of false, truth statments you have made at this site?
So, again one might conclude, that Dogma Doug might have written one false true statement in matters of abortion, and conclude that Doug is admiting one false truth amongst thousands of post his post here, and is still has a batting average of
%99.9999 truthfulness in matters of abortion.
Care to lower that high percentage of knowing your absolutely writing the absolute truth, in matters of abortion, dude?
Why you can give me a percentage of your truth statments if you would like Doug.
Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
Which, outside of writing one false truth in matters of abortion, and leaves Doug batting such a high percentage of absolute truths in matters of abortion, one must still conclude that no one has a good argument against abortion at this post board, they just think they do. Minus %.0001
is PBA murder?
“Truthseeker, no – I don’t think there is any penalty for the woman, and the doctor can get jail time, zero to two years, or a fine, I think. There’s also a provision for the doctor having a hearing to show that it was indeed for the health of the mother.”
Doug, you must be thinking before the Supreme Court banned the procedure.
No, it’s right in the wording of the act itself.
…..
They said there is never a need for the procedure and therefore NO health exception for the mother. I think you must be looking at old case law. Try again. It is always illegal now.
Well, you evidently have not even read it, then.
“A defendant accused of an offense under this section may seek a hearing before the State Medical Board on whether the physician’s conduct was necessary to save the life of the mother whose life was endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury, including a life-endangering physical condition caused by or arising from the pregnancy itself.”
…..
And since it is the illegal killing what is your rationale for saying it is not murder?
:: laughing ::
First of all, do you think the penalty could be just a fine if it was murder?
….
Murder – the crime of unlawfully killing a person. Do you know of a different definition of murder that you like to use?
Being illegal is necessary for murder, but not sufficient by itself.
“Necessary but not sufficient” – a good concept to understand.
Heck, dropping your gum on the sidewalk is illegal in some places.
What statments did you write to Bethany,et al, that were false truths
“So, yllas, after so many of your posts, which are morasses of outright falsehoods, things taken out of context, and the absurd fantasies you conjure, it really means a lot to you to have me say one thing that wasn’t true, huh? ; )
Well okay, humoring you as before, this was Bethany and I talking about consciousness, sentience, etc., and my position was that without a developed cerebral cortex consciousness would not be demonstrably present.
Bethany gave some examples of people that had essentially no developed cortex, yet displayed some consciousness beyond doubt.
I said that I was wrong and that she was right, and she was quite happy with my answer.”
But, tell me dude, outside of just admitting you were unable to support one false truth you gave to Bethany, are you not absolutely truthful in all the thousands of written statments of your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
As before, while your posts are chock-full of outright lies, etc., I admit when I don’t know something, and when something is my opinion. It’s ludicrous for you to be concerned with anybody else on this board, given your behavior.
…..
Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
There again, that’s a lie from you. The legality of it isn’t in question, but the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
It’s fatuous for you to think that the “you aren’t perfect” approach is any meaningful argument, since we all know that in the first place; it’s a given. Nobody claims to be perfect, and you don’t own up to any of your errors and lies, which are legion.
It’s the same old pattern – you are proven wrong, proven to be false, and then you slink off, to reappear a while later on some other thread, slithering around trying to bite people’s ankles. You’re a troll, and this is nothing new on message boards.
I found todays scripture reading at church quite striking with regard to the argument that Jesus/God would NOT condone the killing of the unborn. Based upon Scriture which states in many places that the Holy Spirit is the author of life and is present in life at conception….
“Do you not know that you are the temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys God’s temple,
God will destroy that person;
for the temple of God, which you are, is holy.”
1Cor3:16-17
Doesn’t sound like it was about the unborn.
Josh, it is about everybody. And Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirirt and conceived a son. Why would you presume to exclude the unborn when scripture states that the Holy Spirit is the creator of life? Do you deny the presence of the Holy Spirit at the conception of life? If not, then the unborn are also temples of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is the source of the “life” inside them.
my beliefs aren’t the same as yours, but Jesus was Jewish himself and for the Jews it wasn’t “life” until birth,not a “temple of God” until then, etc.
Josh,
Do Jews believe that the Holy Spirit is the giver of life? Was the breth of God that gave Adam life the Holy Spirit? If so, then how can you believe differently unless you deny that the unborn are alive?
Josh,
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life. ?? Job 33:4
Doesn’t that mean that the Holy Spirit is both the Creator and the breath of life for creation? That would mean the Holy Spirit is present at conception. How would a Jew reconcile that with saying that life is not their until birth?
I have a lot of difficulty seeing how Jews or Christians could say that the unborn are not viewed as persons by God.
Jeremiah 1:4,5
“The word of the LORD came to me, saying,
‘Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”
Psalm 139:13-16
“For you created my inmost being;
you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful,
I know that full well.
My frame was not hidden from you
when I was made in the secret place.
When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body.
All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.”
The Birth of Jesus in Matthew 1:15 speaks about how Mary was “found to be with child.” The Lord then tells Joseph that Mary’s child will be a son, what His name will be, and what He will accomplish.
Luke 1:39-45 “At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, 40where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.
When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed is she who has believed that what the Lord has said to her will be accomplished!”
So, Anon, in 20 years,when your 40 something and I’m in my 70’s, you’re graying and moaning from all your unrighteouness living, I’m gonna be still going strong as long as the Lord gives me strength.
HisMan: November 7, 2008 3:34 PM
~~~~
Ha ha ha. Reading your posts shows you to be the one who moans. No matter how sanctimonious you get, you don’t put forth a good case against abortion, and that’s about it.
A couple thousand years ago, there were people like you who wanted to keep women “in their place” and sadly some of them had writings that got into what we now call the Bible. Oh well, it was wrong then and it’s wrong now, and now we know better.
John,
Discussions between people of faith like Christians and Jews will often reference scripture. That is why we are using scripture to support our points to one another.
You seem to want attention from us by jumping into the copnverstaion and mocking scripture.
Though I am a Christian, I could still discuss abortion with you without the references to scripture as long as you can be civil. At what gestation to you believ a baby has “life”?
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh 22 is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jn 6:63
Words of Jesus that are worth repeating:
It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jn 6:63
But, tell me dude, outside of just admitting you were unable to support one false truth you gave to Bethany, are you not absolutely truthful in all the thousands of written statments of your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
As before, while your posts are chock-full of outright lies, etc., I admit when I don’t know something, and when something is my opinion. It’s ludicrous for you to be concerned with anybody else on this board, given your behavior.
There is no lie in my statment you pasted above.
You admitted one false statment. True? Where is the lie?
Next is a question in that post concerning your ability to write truthful statments in matters of abortion.
are you not absolutely truthful in all the thousands of written statments of your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
You haven’t answered the question dude.
Is that question a lie dude? Since when are questions lies Doug? After answering the question,which you haven’t yet, then one can debate, what was the lie in that question is, based upon your or my answer, to your answering that question, dude. The only way a question can be a lie, before the question is answered, is to be infected with the “no one has a good question to Doug, they just think they do”. Amazingly silly logic on display by Doug, who just revealed his infected with dogmatic thinking. Again.
It’s ludicrous for you to be concerned with anybody else on this board, given your behavior.
But it is your ability to be truthful in matters of abortion which is being questioned by me, and your being ludicrous in not answering questions and statments of your writing the absolute truth in matters of abortion.
Your behavior has already admitted to answering one statment by you, as being a false truth to Bethany. I’m concerned with your being a dogmatic mind that spouts dishonest personal beliefs or judgements that are not based on prove or certainty(definition of opinion) when you have admitted to one statement by you, as being a false truth.
Which leads to the question by trying to assertain if you have written more false statements then one.
are you not absolutely truthful in all the thousands of written statments of your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
You can strike “absolute” if you care Dogma Doug.
No answer of course. But it is directed to your ability to know how truthful you are to yourself, when you admit to being a writer of false truths.
Is it just one statment, which lacked absolute truth in matters of abortion, or you knowing you absolutely know of only one dishonest statment towards your truthful writing in matters of abortion?
Or, can remember any more false truths in your truthful writings to other pro life posters at this board?
Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
There again, that’s a lie from you. The legality of it isn’t in question, but the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
First,
“Because we know”. Is that a lie Doug? Reading my mind again, and denying me a fact that “I know or WE know”
Second;
“that you absolutely know” Is that a lie dude?
If it is a lie, then once again you absolutely don’t know anything you write/know is absolutely known by you dude.
Third.
that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
Is that a lie dogma Doug? Is it the word “innocent” that is the lie, in that statment?
Is it the words ” she created” the lie, Dude?
Or the word “right” this is the lie in that statement?
What are we left in the rebutal to my statement being a “lie”, is a person not knowing his morality or not being able to read a statment with any degree of comprehension, from that old time dogma interfering with Doug, “by knowing that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do”
Do you deny, that you know what you write is based on knowing right and wrong dude?
Or,
“the morality of it(abortion) isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
Dropping of the excess bagage of “matters”, and inserting the ability to distinguish right and wrong for “morality”, which is the definition of morality, we come to;
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion is not of knowing, it’s(abortion) opinion.
Or soo the dogmatist can understand the silliness more clearly;
The abilty to distinguish right and wrong, is NOT OF KNOWING. Think about it, before you write such silly statements dude. Minus the last three words . To not know, is the ability to distinguish right and wrong, in reversing the logic.
We can insert the word beating a person for abortion and arrive at the silliness of Doug;
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of “beating a person” is not knowing.
Gee dude, when one doesn’t “know” the ability to distinguish right and wrong, you’ve come to the dead end of your logic, which is “that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do”. Again.
Finally.
It(abortion) is opinion.
Opinion is definded as; a personal belief or judgement that is not founded on prove or certainty(wordnet princeton)
Putting together the sophist statement in matters of his writing false truths;
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion, is not of knowing, abortion is a personal belief or judgement that is not founded on prove or certainty.
Where is the lie dogma Doug?
Outside of the fact that you have written a completely silly reply to me again, by actually writing a statement which states that, “the ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion is not knowing, abortion is a personal belief or judgement that is not founded on prove or certainty”
If you can’t distinguish right and wrong of abortion by not knowing morality, you might just say and write. Abortion for Doug, is doctrine and dogma.
It’s fatuous for you to think that the “you aren’t perfect” approach is any meaningful argument, since we all know that in the first place; it’s a given. Nobody claims to be perfect, and you don’t own up to any of your errors and lies, which are legion.
Hey, that’s the Obama game plan, nobody is perfect when asked about his failure to bail out main street, and restore all those looted pension funds, mutual funds, bank stocks, etc, and gave 800 billion to his cronies on Wall Street. Hey, wait, no one dares ask such a simple question to the O man, hey dude, you bailouted main street, now bail out the middle class that had their retirment funds looted by Wall Street and the cronies in Congress.
What we have gotten from you Dude is that you don’t own up to more then one fatuous false truth you have finally admitted to, and just can’t seem to remember even one more fatuous false truth you have written at this post board.
Come on, dude, admit another.
Humble yourself once again.
You have annihilated the ability to know right and wrong, once again dude. And ended where you began, knowing that no one has a good argument against you, they just think they do
yllas: Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
“There again, that’s a lie from you. The legality of it isn’t in question, but the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
“Because we know”. Is that a lie Doug? Reading my mind again, and denying me a fact that “I know or WE know”
Well, you wrote it. If it’s a lie then I’d hope you’d realize that. You’re smart enough to see it, but I think that at times you’re not in control of yourself enough to act from it, to proceed in acknowledgment of that.
In fact you don’t “know” that – you’re just making it up as a silly argument. I don’t claim any “absolute knowledge” about it, because there is no such thing. It’s you being false and trying to put words in my mouth.
There is legal status, and then there are our moral opinions. Two different things.
…..
It’s fatuous for you to think that the “you aren’t perfect” approach is any meaningful argument, since we all know that in the first place; it’s a given. Nobody claims to be perfect, and you don’t own up to any of your errors and lies, which are legion.
It’s the same old pattern – you are proven wrong, proven to be false, and then you slink off, to reappear a while later on some other thread, slithering around trying to bite people’s ankles. You’re a troll, and this is nothing new on message boards.”
…..
You can strike “absolute” if you want
Well, at least that’s a beginning. You’re on the right track, yllas.
On matters of external fact, I don’t claim to never be in error, and as with Bethany I’m open to being corrected.
As far as opinions, I give mine honestly, and I don’t pretend it’s more than that. Unlike you, I might add.
…..
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion is not of knowing, it’s(abortion) opinion.
Okay, again – you’re getting there.
It depends on what valuations we make. It depends on our perceptions of the good/bad/right/wrong in the moral realm.
You more want the unborn life to continue, so you see abortion as wrong. I don’t since I more want women to retain the freedom they have.
If a pregnancy is unwanted, then I want the woman to be able to end it.
You don’t. This stuff is not all that hard.
No Child is ever “unwanted” Doug. There are couples that want to adopt that would gladly adopt a baby from a crisis pregnancy. The sad truth is, adoption is promoted like its abandoning a child or something.
“It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish.” — Mother Teresa.
Liz, great post. I would be more than grateful to have the opportunity to adopt a child who was destined to be aborted otherwise.
No Child is ever “unwanted” Doug. There are couples that want to adopt that would gladly adopt a baby from a crisis pregnancy. The sad truth is, adoption is promoted like its abandoning a child or something.
Liz, here’s hoping that every born baby and kid gets a good home.
As far as all the unwanted pregnancies ended by abortion each year, I don’t think there are enough prospective adoptive parents to take them all, though perhaps that could be argued.
Either way, I’d rather see the kids in foster care, etc., who are waiting on adoption get taken care of first. I realize that’s not entirely possible, too.
I don’t think of adoption as being “abandoning,” though there are some women who just would not give birth if they would be giving up the baby after that.
If a willing adoptive person or couple is present, there’s still the question of whether the pregnant woman is willing to go through the pregnancy.
I would be more than grateful to have the opportunity to adopt a child who was destined to be aborted otherwise.
Bethany, I believe you 100%. You really “walk the walk.”
Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
There again, that’s a lie from you. The legality of it isn’t in question, but the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
It depends on what valuations we make. It depends on our perceptions of the good/bad/right/wrong in the moral realm.
That is not what I’m trying to get you to understand and that answer is of no importance to me dude, at this point.
Your appealing to not being aware of fact or a piece of information.
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion is not of knowing, it’s(abortion) opinion.
The ability to distinguish right and wrong of abortion is not (to be) cognizant of fact or aware of a specific piece of information.
You really are one ignorant fatuous sophist from not knowing the definition of “knowing.”
Know; to be cognizant or aware of a fact or a specific piece of information. (princeton.ed)
First,
“Because we know”. Is that a lie Doug? Reading my mind again, and denying me a fact that “I know or WE know”
Because we are “cognizant of a fact or specific piece of information”. Is that the lie dude?
Are you now soo dogmatic that I being aware of a piece of information is a lie? What dogmatic insane world of fascism do you inhabit dude?
My being cognizant of a piece of info, which hasen’t been qualified or quantified in any thing but being “aware of”, is a lie?
Well, you wrote it. If it’s a lie then I’d hope you’d realize that. You’re smart enough to see it, but I think that at times you’re not in control of yourself enough to act from it, to proceed in acknowledgment of that.
The question is to you sophist? Is that phrase, in that statement, a lie Doug? Yes or no is all that is required dude.
Second;
“that you absolutely know” Is that a lie dude?
That you dude, (are) absolutely cognizant or aware of a fact(your facts jack) or a specific piece of information. Is that a lie Doug?
remember dude it is you that is being the subject of that phrase of my statment.
Is that a lie?
If it is a lie, your admitting to not being cognizant of a fact or a specific piece of information that you write or wrote, dude.
Third.
that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
Is that a lie dogma Doug? Is it the word “innocent” that is the lie, in that statment?
Is it the words ” she created” the lie, Dude?
Or the word “right” this is the lie in that statement
Try again Doug, yes or no, is the above a lie?
the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
Again you slow witted sophist;
The right and wrong of abortion is NOT “being cognizant or aware of a fact or a piece of information”.
The right and wrong of abortion is NOT being cognizant or aware of a piece of information.
Taken that statement stripped to it’s true meaning from you, means you are basing your arguments for abortion on not being cognizant or aware of a fact or piece of information. Do you apply this “knowing” to buying a truck?
Forget opinion, I can’t get over such a silly statement, that in matters of abortion, which Doug preaches for, that abortion is based on his, or others, NOT being cognizant or aware of fact or a piece of information.
Or to know. There is no knowing for Doug in matters of abortion.
You can’t win that argument, and when Doug knows, that no one has a good argument against abortion, they just think they do”, you must be aware or cognizant of that fact of Dogma Doug.
yllas: Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.
“There again, that’s a lie from you. The legality of it isn’t in question, but the morality of it isn’t a matter of “knowing,” it’s a matter of opinion.
“Because we know”. Is that a lie Doug? Reading my mind again, and denying me a fact that “I know or WE know”
Well, you wrote it. If it’s a lie then I’d hope you’d realize that. You’re smart enough to see it, but I think that at times you’re not in control of yourself enough to act from it, to proceed in acknowledgment of that.
In fact you don’t “know” that – you’re just making it up as a silly argument. I don’t claim any “absolute knowledge” about it, because there is no such thing. It’s you being false and trying to put words in my mouth.
There is legal status, and then there are our moral opinions. Two different things.
That is not what I’m trying to get you to understand and that answer is of no importance to me dude, at this point.
Well, you asked about the lie, and it’s in what you wrote, as above.
We can know matters of external fact, and we can know what we think about subjective things, but whether a given person or group of people should have a certain right is an opinion, not a matter of “knowing,” not any external fact.
There are things with physical reality, things external to us, that are not matters of opinion.
And then there is the moral realm which is subjective, based on valuations, etc.
For all your blathering, they are not the same.
I don’t pretend that my opinion is external fact, but you do – you’re the one who makes that error.
Doug said, “There is legal status, and then there are our moral opinions. Two different things.”
Or, rather, there is present legal status, which is a reflection of both past and present moral opinion, whether of the elite or the majority–and there is objective morality, best summarized as the Ten Commandments, but adequately explained in the rest of God’s Word, the Bible. Current legal status and absolute morality–two different things.
Doug also said, “I don’t pretend that my opinion is external fact…”
I think you do, Doug. You spent much of your comment at 11:12 a.m. telling Yllas that legal status and individual opinion are two different things. You state that all morality is relative to the individual. That you make this immoral absolute statement is clear from your clarification:
“There are things with physical reality, things external to us, that are not matters of opinion. And then there is the moral realm which is subjective, based on valuations, etc.”
The above quotation amounts to a rejection of the personal God who has clearly made claims upon us in the Bible. You live by every breath He gives you, and yet you refuse to acknowledge His existence. Your denial is morally wrong.
Why do you refuse to admit that you claim to be amoral, Doug? (You did refuse once on an earlier thread.) We cannot meaningfully talk about morality unless there is a higher being who expects a certain behaviour, things we should and should not do, which are not always the same as the things we want. You see morality as producing a conflict of desires within the self, but there is no reason for you to regard one desire as intrinsically better than another desire.
Even if you wouldn’t pretend that your convictions are external fact–an impossibility–logically you would have to admit that my convictions still could be external fact. My convictions are radically different from your convictions.
Physical reality does not necessarily negate moral reality. We trust our senses to provide us with physical reality. We trust (have faith in) God’s Word to give us morality. Or if you like, I want God and so I accept His morality. You do not want God, so you deny moral reality. (Or said another way, you do not want what God represents and so you do not want God.)
Well Doug,
You are incapable of writing a sentence that holds up to being true, when examined and deconstructed, as you do to others with that pry bar and metaphysical nail puller you use.
I have just mocked you and your decontruction writing in matters of abortion.
I have not lied, and have proven that you don’t even know the definition of “know”.
The right and wrong of abortion is NOT “being cognizant or aware of a fact or a piece of information”.
Those are your words that you wrote Doug, which are stripped of their sophistry and reduced to a meaningful statement, based on proper definitions of a common word, and key to your argumental offerings of another false truth being true.
Your statement that abortion is NOT being cognizant or aware of a piece of information is another example of a “false truth” from you Dogma Doug.
Let’s make it simple again for ya dude.
And maybe we can catch you preaching in matters of abortion writing false truths to this board one more time.
The right and wrong of abortion is NOT being cognizant or aware of fact, or a specific piece of information.
True or False Doug?
You wrote those words and you own them Doug.
What you did, was try and dumb down the definition of “knowing” and blur knowing into opinion in one great appeal to another false truth statement of Dogma Doug.
Or, are you admitting that the decision of the SCOTUS was a appeal to not being cognizant of fact or aware of a specfic piece of information in the issue of abortion? That they based their decision on not knowing (being cognizant or aware of a fact or were aware of a specific piece of information) right and wrong is the basis of knowing right and wrong, as you wrote to me dude?
When called upon such sloppy writing in NOT KNOWING the definition of knowing, you advance or progress into a another subject area to progress beyond your false truth statement, AGAIN.
Just as you ignore the “,knowing” that your argument to some sap waitress was based on the “just another drink logic” of Dogma Doug?
Is the above statement by me, True or false Doug?
For all your blathering about external fact and other matters of abortion, you must be aware of your being aware that a women has the right to kill the innocent life of another human being.
True of false dude?
And if you wrote the truth about abortion, as being predicated on the right or wrong of killing innocent human life is the NOT being cognizant or aware of a piece of information, as a truth from you Doug,…. well that does make sense in a person that doesn’t use “knowledge” as a basis for your truthfulness in matters of abortion.
Which is why you have only admitted to one false truth statement, at this board dude.
Care to admit another false truth statement you peddled to me dude?
Or, is that intrinsic dogma within you dude, that basic intrinsic fact, that your dishonesty begins with Not being cognizant or aware of a fact or specific piece of information in matters of abortion, and know that it is all a matter of your knowing no one has a good argument against you, they just think they do.
Including some poor waitress, in some podunk town you visited, and demanded a drink from her and applying the logic of “just another drink” against her.
That a external fact meant nothing to you, the time, and a argument that time was on your side as a external fact, was the basis of your argument to her, while being dishonest to her and yourself once again, by “knowing” your argument was actually based on the “just another drink” logic of Dogma Doug.
True or False dude?
Doug said, “There is legal status, and then there are our moral opinions. Two different things.”
Or, rather, there is present legal status, which is a reflection of both past and present moral opinion, whether of the elite or the majority–and there is objective morality, best summarized as the Ten Commandments, but adequately explained in the rest of God’s Word, the Bible. Current legal status and absolute morality–two different things.
Jon, the thing is – you have no proof that the Bible is true or “real” as you proceed. Legal status is pretty clear, however.
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Doug also said, “I don’t pretend that my opinion is external fact…”
I think you do, Doug. You spent much of your comment at 11:12 a.m. telling Yllas that legal status and individual opinion are two different things. You state that all morality is relative to the individual.
Don’t you agree that there has to be “somebody” to care, one way or another, in the first place? Otherwise there would be no such thing as morality. Morality is ideas, it’s not something with separate physical existence. It’s a concept of the mind, not anything external to it.
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That you make this immoral absolute statement is clear from your clarification:
“There are things with physical reality, things external to us, that are not matters of opinion. And then there is the moral realm which is subjective, based on valuations, etc.”
The above quotation amounts to a rejection of the personal God who has clearly made claims upon us in the Bible. You live by every breath He gives you, and yet you refuse to acknowledge His existence. Your denial is morally wrong.
No it isn’t, Jon. You and I just make different valuations, that’s all. I accept that you believe as you say you do, but that in no way necessarily applies to other people.
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Why do you refuse to admit that you claim to be amoral, Doug? (You did refuse once on an earlier thread.)
I don’t claim that, period. You and I have different desires – you more want the unborn life to continue, I more want the woman to keep the freedom she now has.
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We cannot meaningfully talk about morality unless there is a higher being who expects a certain behaviour, things we should and should not do, which are not always the same as the things we want. You see morality as producing a conflict of desires within the self, but there is no reason for you to regard one desire as intrinsically better than another desire.
I don’t think that’s true, Jon. You and I can talk about “what’s more moral” all day. I don’t see morality as “producing a conflict of desires.” There may be a mix of desires, sure, but in the end that which is wanted the most is that which will be seen as moral. There is no “intrinsically better” – it’s always a matter of valuation. Any motivation can be traced to the desire behind it.
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Even if you wouldn’t pretend that your convictions are external fact–an impossibility–logically you would have to admit that my convictions still could be external fact. My convictions are radically different from your convictions.
What do you see of my convictions that you think I pretend is external fact?
I’m saying there is nothing that’s inherently bad/good/right/wrong in the moral realm. Again, there has to be “somebody” to make valuations. I’m not ruling out gods or other “higher” beings than us earthly humans if they exist, here, either – I’m just saying there has to be some consciousness that cares in the first place, or there would be no such thing as morality. Morality is perceptions, stuff internal to the mind, not external to it.
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Physical reality does not necessarily negate moral reality. We trust our senses to provide us with physical reality. We trust (have faith in) God’s Word to give us morality. Or if you like, I want God and so I accept His morality. You do not want God, so you deny moral reality. (Or said another way, you do not want what God represents and so you do not want God.)
I think we’re agreed on most physical reality, though, Jon. I acknowledge that people have different beliefs, but when somebody says, “I feel this way…” that can’t be argued with.
yllas: I have not lied, and have proven that you don’t even know the definition of “know”.
Heh – you’ve lied repeatedly. I’m aware of what “know” means.
The point is you erred where you said, “Because we know, that you absolutely know, that a women has the right to kill that innocent human being she created.”
You don’t know that – you’re making it up. I never said anything about any absolute knowlege there, nothing about anything inherent or external.
I don’t think your desire for the unborn life to continue trumps the desire of the pregnant woman herself, nor my desire for the woman to retain the freedom she now has.
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“The right and wrong of abortion is NOT being cognizant or aware of fact, or a specific piece of information.”
True or False Doug?
True. It’s not perceiving or understanding external reality, it’s making internal subjective judgments.
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are you admitting that the decision of the SCOTUS was a appeal to not being cognizant of fact or aware of a specfic piece of information in the issue of abortion? That they based their decision on not knowing (being cognizant or aware of a fact or were aware of a specific piece of information) right and wrong is the basis of knowing right and wrong, as you wrote to me dude?
They based in on the principles of freedom, liberty, due process, etc., in the Constitution. It’s up to the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution, and yes, there is an “opinion” of the Court.
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Care to admit another false truth statement you peddled to me dude?
I mentioned one to illustrate that you’re wrong about me. I’m not the one with the dogma, you are. I’ve never claimed to be perfect, yet I’ve never seen you acknowledge even one of the huge number of lies and errors in your posts.
Look at all the reasonable people – PIP, Hal, Bobby, etc. that have at least at times written you off. There’s a reason for that.
Anyway, this whole thread of posts from you began with a lie. You’re worried about other people, when you do that? Why not address your error?
Jill, UCLA Berkeley did a study and I recall that 68 percent of all young people surveyed were against abortion.
We need to pray for more hearts to change…especially of those girls getting pregnant. We need our young to work in media and films to help change opinion.
Already there have been films and tv shows, and portions of popular culture (Brit Spear’s younger sister and Sarah Palin’s daughter) who have chosen to have a baby instead of aborting it. We need to share with Black churches the message of abortion since it is hurting their future the most.
Prayer changes things more than legislation. Prayer works miracles. Legislation never does.
The reason we have a demand for abortion (murder) in America is because of failed contraception. (contra = against; conception = to begin life; contraception = against life)
The reason we have a demand for contraception is because people see procreation/pregnancy as a burden to them at the time.
The reason they see a new life as a burden on them is because they think it will interfere with school, job, travel, other relationships, etc.
What does this tell us? That it comes down to selfishness. We have abortion in this country because we are selfish.
The cause of the fall of man/original sin was due to selfishness as well, Adam & Eve ate of the forbidden fruit because they selfishly wanted what the could not have.
The only way to end abortion is to change the selfish culture in which we live, and this begins in our families.
Why is it that even so-called “pro-lifers” continue to have such small families? Are they contracepting? If so, how are they any different than those who are aborting? The root of both these vices comes back to selfishness.
Why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world? Because they put their families first by out pro-creating everyone else.
America is the most materialistic country in the world, we put everything above our families. Until we understand and change this dichotomy, we will always have abortion amongst us.
Abortion is murder. Murder is against the law but people still commit murder. Before Roe v. Wade became law abortions still happend, although with less frequency. Changing the laws will not change hearts. We must start at the most basic level if we want things to change.
Uh, no, abortion is not murder. You may not like it, but your opinion doesn’t make the law.
ThANK you MAry,..finLLY someone has stated the facts about women are still dying from abortion…and pre-Roe the number of maternal deaths from aboriton was very low …and falling due to antibiotics, etc. Bernard Nathanson….the biggest abortionist in the 70s admitted they concocted the tens of thousands fabrication of women dying from illegal abortions….Abortion has done nothing to improve society…child abuse has skyrocketed…etc etc etc….STOP Aboriton now
The cause of the fall of man/original sin was due to selfishness as well, Adam & Eve ate of the forbidden fruit because they selfishly wanted what the could not have.
Oy Vey….