Suleman octuplets III
Read previous posts here and here.
Nadya Suleman, mother of octuplets born January 26, gave her 1st interview today, to Today’s Ann Curry.
Most notable is Suleman said her fertility doctor implanted 6 embryos, and 2 apparently split. About the number implanted Nadya gave the same pro-life response as had her mother: “I wanted them all transferred. Those are my children, and that’s what was available and I used them. So, I took a risk. It’s a gamble. It always is.”
Curry said after the interview Suleman wants to return to school this autumn to pursue her Master’s degree, relying on financial aid and child care for help. I didn’t hear Suleman say that so am not sure if the paraphrase was accurate. If so, she’s in denial. All her babies are preemies.
The Associated Press has written a detailed related article.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Most notable is that the fertility doctor implanted 6 embryos and 2 apparently split.
This is EXACTLY the situation Prof. George spoke about when interviewed by CNN about the situation. He suggested that a woman could have 5 embryos implanted and that some might split and 8 babies result.
“I wanted them all transferred. Those are my children, and that’s what was available and I used them. So, I took a risk. It’s a gamble. It always is.”
This is a great prolife attitude, but I wonder why she didn’t space the implantation out – maybe 3 in one and 2 in another? Cost and other factors likely came into play here.
Perhaps she took a gamble on 6 embryo’s thinking that she might end up with 3 babies?
I’m sure since there is always a high failure rate with IVF she was thinking that only a couple would inplant.
I’ve had a few friends do IVF and implant 5 but only end up with one implanting. I think this is rare, all of her babies were all strong from the beginning.
I’m sure she’ll love her kids no matter what though. I don’t think she should have any regrets and I hope people lay off her a bit while she continues her life with her children.
I’ve heard it quoted that an IVF embryo has roughly a 20% chance of implantation, so they usually implant 5 embryos because then 1 will probably implant because you have 5 embryos, each at 20% chance of implanting, you have close to 100% chance of at least one implanting (that is some HORRIBLE mathematics, BTW).
But just for fun, given that an embryo has a 20% chance of implanting (and that one embryo implanting is independent of another embryo implanting), the probability that all 6 embryos would implant is (2/10)^6 or .0064% which is less than one one-hundredth of a percent; for all intents and purposes, 0%. Crazy!
I’m sorry, but given her circumstances, it was irresponsible to have ANY implanted. She is a single. She has no income. She lives with her parents (she decribed her own upbringing as dysfunctional). She is intending to go back to school in the fall. And she already had 6 children.
She says she is going to “be with them”. How is she planning on being with them and provide for them at the same time, if not for the charity of others?
I think she’s nuts, like one of those people with 30 dogs and 50 cats in their house.
However, it’ll be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Ahoy, asitis – I got you a new keyboard.
I’m probably as pro-life as I can be, but I think this woman’s insane. She seems to have the same hoarding mentality as a crazy cat woman. There is absolutely no way she should be having any kids while living with her parents and unmarried.
And this is another reason I think Invitro is just an evil mess.
Whats done is done. The babies are here!!!
“I think she’s nuts, like one of those people with 30 dogs and 50 cats in their house”.
Arrrrr! Certainly a litter box would be easier on her AND the environment. Thanks for the keyboard Doug!
She gives IVF a bad name!
Desperately Seeking Angelina Jolie?
Like some people on this blog I cannot see this situation through rose colored glasses, period.
Jill makes the point that is most important. Human beings were never designed to have litters. Nature regulates how much young the animal world can produce at one time, including humans, for a reason.
Doug, Asitis, and Jenny Z are absolutely correct. This woman is mentally unstable. Look at her history of obsession and depression. Her “dysfunctional” childhood. My mentally ill daughter tells anyone who will listen how horribly abused she was. Horse puckey.
There can be a thin line between “love” and obsession. In Detroit 200 cats were removed from the home of a man who started taking in cats because he “loved” them. Its obvious this man had an out of control compulsion and the animals suffered horribly because of his “love”.
This woman is in fantasyland. She won’t take welfare? Oh? So the family, friends, and church members she assumes will help her is not charity?
Did she consult with any of these people prior to her IVF? I seriously doubt she gave it much thought.
She can love all her children and be a good mother.
She always wanted a large family
Me, me, and me
What does she plan to use for money? Oh yes she’s returning to school, will make a fortune, and all will be well. Fantasyland!! Sorry, but in the real world food must be bought and bills must be paid now, not 2 years from now when you’ve completed school.
She’s returning to school. How noble. So who will watch 8 infants who require around the clock care while she’s in school? There’s a daycare near her college? Do they operate for free? Is there room for her children? Do they take autistic children? How severely autistic is her one child?
This woman is not living any PL convictions nor does this have anything to do with love. This is a mentally unstable woman who has put innocent children at serious risk to satisfy a compulsion.
Doug correctly points out she’s little different than someone who collects 30 dogs and 50 cats.
But just for fun, given that an embryo has a 20% chance of implanting (and that one embryo implanting is independent of another embryo implanting), the probability that all 6 embryos would implant is (2/10)^6 or .0064% which is less than one one-hundredth of a percent; for all intents and purposes, 0%. Crazy!
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at February 6, 2009 1:11 PM
Perhaps if a woman is reproductively healthy, the chances of all six successfully implanting are not 0%!
I”m betting that the doctors never anticipated that all 6 would survive.
Doug at February 6, 2009 1:48 PM
Doug, is it ergonomic with few keys because pirates have hooks or are missing a few digits?
Or is it that pirates have limited intellectual abilities and therefore a limited vocabulary? ;-D
I think it’s because RRRRRRRRR says a lot!
Plus, there is that hook issue. Though not for too many of us pirate lasses, eh Doug?
Oh… and pirates ARE the smart ones! Everyone knows that. c);)
Even though many on this site, believe it is crazy to have 8 babies (+ 6 other kids) – what is the alternative — destroy the embryos??
My father was raised on a little farm in a little town by his single mother (as his dad passed away when he was seven) – and his mother had 19 kids (11 of her own & 8 from her husband’s previous deceased wife)… My father’s family grew up in basically poverty – but there was a lot of spirituality and love in that home. They all learned the value of work and charity. All 19 of my grandmother’s & grandfather’s children have turned out to be fine upstanding adults and parents and contributing members of society.
I don’t believe we should judge this woman – sure I wouldn’t want to have 8 kids all at the same time – but I couldn’t have destroyed the embryos either as it would go against everything I believe and stand for.
“Perhaps if a woman is reproductively healthy, the chances of all six successfully implanting are not 0%!”
Oh yes, clearly because it happened. I guess all that I was saying is that had you asked me to give you the probability that it could happen based only on that 20% figure, i would have told you that it would never happen. But it did!
And so as you point out, it may very well be the case that a reproductively healthy woman has a better chance of having an embryo implant. Or maybe there’s some strange reason that if one embryo implants, then that increases another embryo’s chance of implanting. Lots and lots of possibilities. Fun stuff.
Even though many on this site, believe it is crazy to have 8 babies (+ 6 other kids) – what is the alternative — destroy the embryos??
Posted by: a red voice at February 6, 2009 3:27 PM
How about she should never have created them in the first place!
“Even though many on this site, believe it is crazy to have 8 babies…”
I’m not so sure this is true, red voice. I know I’d love to have as many (or as few) children as the Lord will grant me, and I think there are several others on here who have 6+ kids or who are hoping for many children. I might venture to guess that some who came to the pro-life philosophy later in life even regret not having more children.
So while you may find some who think it’s crazy to have 8 babies, I think you’ll at least find more people here who don’t think that than you would a lot of other blogs, like child-free blogs :)
Somebody save those kids!
“How about she should never have created them in the first place! ”
Wait, what?! We agree, asitis! Rejoice! Weeeeeeeeee!
She’s had 6, then 8, that means the next time it’ll be 10, and then she’ll be stuck with 24 kids.
That’s going to be a bummer.
Rejoicing away Bobby! It’s a miracle!!! Even though our reasons are diiferent at least we agree she shouldn’t have created the embryos.
Well, that’s assuming a linear increase, Doug. She may be working with an exponential model, in which case she will have 14.2222222… kids next time.
Talk about a bummer- what’s 2/9ths of a child?
I just wouldn’t want these children exploited like the Dionne Quints of Canada.
And I agree this woman needs some mental health therapy.
As a Board Certified Reproductive Endocrinologist ( Fertility Specialist ) at the Xpert Fertility Care of California, I always followed the guideline set by American Society of Reproductive Medicine: never put back more than 2 embryos fro a “fertile” woman under 35 year of age.
Recently, with the advance of fertility medication, we even restrict ourselves to only one embryo at a time.
I can’t speak for the circumstance behind the decision to put back so many embryos in this case.
Among colleagues, the management of this doctor is considered not a standard of care, exposing the patient to unnecessary deadly risks, and possible long term disability suffered by the children.
Minh N. Ho, M.D.
Xpert Fertility Care
http://www.ivfdoc.com
Then what you must also do is CREATE only one or two embryos at a time, rather than engage in creating more than one intends to implant.
Then what you must also do is CREATE only one or two embryos at a time, rather than engage in creating more than one intends to implant.
Posted by: bri at February 6, 2009 5:56 PM
Must???? Who says Dr. Minh Ho must do so. Or any other endocrinologist for that matter?
What does she plan to use for money? Oh yes she’s returning to school, will make a fortune, and all will be well. Fantasyland!! Sorry, but in the real world food must be bought and bills must be paid now, not 2 years from now when you’ve completed school.
She’s returning to school. How noble. So who will watch 8 infants who require around the clock care while she’s in school? There’s a daycare near her college? Do they operate for free? Is there room for her children? Do they take autistic children? How severely autistic is her one child?
This woman is not living any PL convictions nor does this have anything to do with love. This is a mentally unstable woman who has put innocent children at serious risk to satisfy a compulsion.
Doug correctly points out she’s little different than someone who collects 30 dogs and 50 cats.
Posted by: Mary at February 6, 2009 2:38 PM
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I’ve been reading everyone’s comments, and I have to say that I’m a little stunned.
All of what you’ve said, Mary, has been said to many women with unplanned pregnancies…to encourage them NOT to continue their pregnancies.
I’m with Carla. What’s done is done. These children are here. Should safeguards be put in place so that this never happens again with IVF patients? Yes. But mocking this woman as has been done here on this blog…well, to me it’s just shameful.
I don’t mean to offend anyone, it’s just the emotion that hit me when I read all of this. She’s a mother, for God’s sake, not a crazy lady collecting CATS. Are you listening to yourselves??
Minh: never put back more than 2 embryos fro a “fertile” woman under 35 year of age.
I saw a blurb this morning that the doctor in this case is now under investigation.
Kel: She’s a mother, for God’s sake, not a crazy lady collecting CATS.
Yes, a mother, but that doesn’t mean she’s not nuttier than a fruitcake.
I agree with Mary – this is a real compulsion at work here.
Cats aren’t as much work or as much expense as kids. We all have our “shoulds” and “should nots,” but this was a woman that already had 6 kids and no job. So now she’s gonna fire up 14 kids…?
I agree with Mary, this women is irresponsible and selfish. She’s going for a degree now? who going to take care of her kids? This is child abuse. IVF should be illegal.
I think something that we’re not considering fully is the fact that these 8 babies are preemies. As a mother of a preemie, I can tell you that caring for ONE was quite the experience.
He needed special feedings and my milk never really came in well so we had to buy very expensive formula. He went home on an apnea monitor, and has had several surgeries. He is mostly developmentally on target, but he does have some sensory issues believed to have been caused by his prematurity.
Contrasted with my term baby, having a preemie was A LOT more work. So this woman has 8X the preemies. She’s going to need so much help. I don’t think she truely understands yet what she’s gotten herself into.
There’s no turning back now. Somehow she has to figure out how to care for all of her children. I wish them all the best, but I do hope that this serves as a cautionary tale to others.
Kel, 10:23PM
I think you’ve missed my point. This is not an unplanned pregnancy. It is a pregnancy that was very deliberately planned to satisfy a compulsion, some kind of psychological need.
Like animals that are collected to satisfy a human’s compulsion that end up neglected and abused, I fear the same for these children. That they are here to satisfying their mother’s emotional need only.
I’ve worked with women facing crisis pregancies. Far from living in fantasy worlds as this mother is, they are very grounded in reality. That’s why they’re frightened and know they need help.
Listening to this woman is scary. I’ll just dance down the primrose path, I’ll love my children, I don’t want any charity(no, she just expects all this free help) everything will work out, all these people will help me, I’ll got to school, make all this money, etc.
Lauren does a better job than I can of pointing out the needs and demands of one premature baby, much less 8. This woman is going back to school with 8 such babies demanding around the clock care, plus 6 more, 1 of which is autistic? That’s what I mean Kel, this woman isn’t grounded in reality and I have very serious concerns for these children because of it.
Yes the babies are here and what’s done is done. I think that IFV doctor should face some serious charges. I also hope the child welfare dept. is on this from day one. Other than this we can only watch and pray.
Kel,
We in no way mean to compare children with cats. The point being made is people collect or desire large numbers of something to satisfy a compulsion. These are people with mental health issues, and no I don’t mean raving maniacs.
People will collect objects, often they’re called packrats, animals, and yes children.
These people often lose control and wind up like the folks on “Clean House” or like the man in Detroit who had 200 cats removed from his home, or like the woman with all these children and not a clue as to how they will be provided or cared for.
They fixate on collecting, they give no thought to the care of the animal or child. This is what has me concerned Kel, when reality finally strikes.
Grandma is speaking out now and it’s not a pretty picture.
Again… somebody save those kids!
There are 14 children that need our support as a society.
My mom had 12 children and my aunt had 15 children. We all grew up to be productive members of society.
I live quite near Whittier, I would love to be part of a team to care for these beautiful children.
What are we thinking? Criticize the mother and not support her as others who have had mutiple births. Where is a team or group that is rallying behind the children?” The babies are here now. Let’s think about them and stop crucifying the mother!!
I
Yeh, thing is Culp is this: it’s becoming increasingly apparent that the mother cannot support them, is delusional, mentally unstable, irresponsible and possibly unfit to raise them. This requires more than money for a mega-van, diapers, formula and food.
Also, this should never have been allowed to happen.
And Culp, were your mom and aunt single moms on welfare? Did they spend any money they did have on IVF and (very likely) cosmetic surgery instead of contributing to the cost of raising their children?
http://bevinnesthots.blogspot.com/2009/02/lady-who-had-all-those-children.html
I wrote a little entry about this issue too. I feel for the mother. She has a good heart – but not much wisdom. She has not counted the cost – not the cost of even raising so many – how about the emotional and physical cost. In these days of wonderful neonatal care – 20 years ago alot of these babies would’ve died.
She already has 3 children with special needs – one is autistic – another is slightly autistic and the third has speech delays.
One man’s sperm has fertilized all the eggs this woman had.
She never heard of Snowflake project – that’s where unused eggs can be donated to others to carry and raise. Then there’s no waste of these precious ones. Too bad they can’t harvest eggs from a woman and then hold them without fertilizing them. But I don’t know if life had already been considered to have happened there??
I hope and pray that she let’s some of these go to other homes – has anyone watched Jon and Kate + 8? Talk about alot of work – and I think that Kate has one other helper besides her hubby who has to go to work a few days a week. 6- 4 year olds – it’s a wonderful thot. :))
This woman has 6 under 7 years old – 3 with special needs – how many other special needs will be in the new 8?
How much will the State of Calif. pay for the raising of these children till they can live outside the hospital? How could she even imagine to leave them and go back to college?
There’s a button on my blog Kayleigh Freeman – and the family calls her a “1# miracle from God” she’s been in the neonatal care unit for the last 7+ months … is that what the suleman 8 are looking at? It’s about crushed these people with the financial burden. Well she has 8 Kayleigh’s!
I’d be in the corner in a ball if this was me … I think she’s in shock and really hasn’t taken in what her rash decision was.
Now-a-days they don’t have to implant so many embryos as they once did. They can do 2 and usually at least one survives.
Well God bless her and I hope and pray that she gives some of them up for adoption … it’s just really sad!