CUA debate between George/Kmiec
UPDATE, 5/29, 5:30a: CSPAN is currently featuring video of yesterday’s “discussion” between Profs. Robert George and Doug Kmiec about Obama, Catholics, and the Life issue. The Catholic University of America states the video can be viewed on its site, but the link isn’t working for me at the moment.
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UPDATE, 5/28, 6p: Professor Michael New (who got me in to this gig!) wants to say a few words about the debate:
Jill is being very brave by giving me permission to guest post. Here are a few quick thoughts.
The format could have been better. Essentially it did not allow for much dialogue between George and Kmiec, which was a bit disappointing….
That having been said, the best word to describe Doug Kmiec would be evasive. He tried to argue that other issues trumped sanctity of life issues when voting. He tried to make the case that the new stem cell regulations were part of a reasonable compromise. He said that denying holy communion to Catholic politicians who support legal abortion was counterproductive. Finally, he argued that science has not come to a consensus about the sanctity of human life. He was all over the place and on no issue was he particularly persuasive.
Interestingly, Kmiec did not spend much time talking about abortion trends. He briefly claimed (wrongly) that abortions increased during the presidency of the first President Bush. He briefly cited the decline in the abortion rate that occurred during the Clinton administration. But he gave credit to the strong economy. While this is partly true, he did not mention state level pro-life laws. At least he did not claim welfare spending caused the 1990s abortion decline.
Professor George, on the other hand succeeded in describing vivid constrasts between President Obama and the pro-life movement. Professor George described in great detail Obama’s refusal to support incremental pro-life laws and his administration’s efforts to fund abortion both in DC and in other countries. He also found it telling that while the Obama administration wants to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies, they never express an interest in lowering the number of abortions. Overall the Obama adminstration does not think that fetal life is worthy of legal protection which makes finding common ground very difficult, if not impossible.
Overall, Professor George, was concise, hard hiting and made his points well throughout the course of the debate.
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UPDATE, 5:45p: Just spoke with Kmiec. I told him I thought his understanding of Obama’s opposition to Born Alive was wrong. He said he got most of his information from Eric Zorn at the Chicago Tribune (?!), who I told him was a liberal, pro-abort columnist, not a reporter.
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UPDATE, 5:27p: just learned this Kmiec/George Debate can be watched on C-SPAN2 now: http://tr.im/mJ2V Wish I’d known this b4, sorry!
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UPDATE, 5p: Glendon: Explain how abortions will be lowered if funding is increased and laws are less restricted?
Kmiec: President has taken FOCA off the table. Scientists don’t say life begins at conception. They say properties are there for nascient human life. They will not say that that results in a legal conclusion of personhood.
Glendon: What do you say to pro-lifers who vote for anti-lifers.
George: When we look at the scope and magnitude of abortion stacked up against other injustices it outways all others.
George to Kmiec: Do you know of a single book that denies conception launches human life? There is none.
George: It just seems to me implausible that you would want to reduce the # of abortions and then subsidize it and oppose laws trying to restrict it.
Glendon to Kmiec: Can you name one legislative action by Obama – not rhetoric – that has contributed to the preservation of human life?
Kmiec: Faith based initiatives.
George: I am for incremental strategy. If they’ll begin with common ground of forbidding 2nd and 3rd trimester abortions, that’s a start. If they’ll agree to ban sex-selection abortions, that’s great. Ban PBA, that’s great. I’d like them to do ANYTHING….
Kmiec arguing we shouldn’t only discuss “blood and bones” late-term abortions.
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UPDATE, 4:40p: George:
Must oppose Obama on the taking of human life. “Frustrate on every turn.”
Professor Kmiec and I are on one side of the human divide, President Obama the other.
I appreciated the President’s candor at Notre Dame. “Now understand that the debate should go away. No matter how much we want to fudge it, the views of the 2 camps are irreconcilable.
He is right. His view and the view of Professor Kmiec and myself are irreconcilable.
Describing how children are killed by abortion.
The argument is whether all humans beings deserve respect and protection.
The President holds, and we deny, those in the embryonic and fetal stages of development that they are dispensable.
Obama doesn’t understand the concept of human rights as Professor Kmiec and I do.
For the President, being human is not enough.
Mentioning my experience at Christ Hospital and Obama’s opposition to Born Alive as state senator.
Throughout his career Obama has opposed every attempt to protect preborn human life.
“President Obama’s supporters do him no good service” by not helping him recognize and respect preborn human life. Eww.
Discussed recent meeting at White House with Melody Barnes. She spoke of “reducing the need” for women to seek abortions. President repeated something similar at Notre Dame. The president and his admiinstation will not join us on common ground to discourage abortion… The idea that the interests of the children should be taken into account is simply off the table.
“Plainly the president’s views are far more favorable to abortion than the general public’s.”
The common ground I’m interested in…
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UPDATE, 4:20p: Kmiec:
President Obama set up from the first moment of his campaign to not win by dividing, stirring hate, reigniting the culture war, but instead to find, explore, whether common ground can exist.
Common ground must be anchored in truth.
I would find it unacceptable that abortion should be permissable.
Hearkening back to John Kennedy, when he was asked whether one could be both Catholic and America.
“Could a Catholic support Obama in 2008? This Catholic believed unequivocably yes.” Bringing up Obama’s position on economy, “unjust” war, environment, “as a matter of life he seeks to reform the health care system….”
Considers it “intimidation” to withhold communion. Said it is wrong to say it is wrong for Catholic Church to say it is wrong to vote for a pro-abort.
Fr. John Jenkins showed “brilliantly” how to engage pro-abort. “It wasn’t just the invitation that was controverial… It was also the acceptance.”
Says Obama recognizes competing moral claims on embryonic stem cell research. On the topic of escr, he has already illustrated in the NIH draft regs that he’s listening.
“Listening doesn’t mean 100% agreement with us.”
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UPDATE, 4:15p: Rules being read. Professor Glendon will give an introduction. Then Profs. George and Kmiec will have 20 minutes to speak, then Q&A, then closing comments. We’ve been informed twice now this is a discussion, not a debate.
Glendon: “Both our speakers are pro-life.”
Aims: to promote informed opinion in pro-life community on the current administration’s stance on pro-life; to explore whether there is common ground. Missed 2nd point.
First speaker is Kmiec, as determined by coin toss.
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UPDATE, 4:10p: Senator Rick Santorum and Mary Ann Glendon…
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Hello from the National Press Club. Am sitting in a blogger/reporters’ row between a reporter from the Washington Times and a reporter from USA Today (both women, yeah!).
Emily Belz from World mag has also popped over to introduce herself. Dan Gilgoff from US News & World Report just introduced himself as well. Dan kind of got this debate going when he moderated an email discussion between Profs. Robert George and Doug Kmiec last month, as I mentioned yesterday.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“Considers it “intimidation” to withhold communion.”
Bring it up with the Code of Canon Law, pal.
Yes, God is a consuming fire and can be very intimidating.
Wow what an oversized head Kmiec has. Too bad most of it is filled with lies.
I think Kmiec is campaigning to be the first pro-abort American Pope.
“Scientists don’t say life begins at conception. They say properties are there for nascient human life. They will not say that that results in a legal conclusion of personhood.”
These same scientists will try to convince us that “life” came from rocks, and heat, and electricity.
Scientists are the new shamans, i.e., witch doctors. Used to be you could trust a scientist….no more.
agreed Bobby.
The Catholic Church intimidates no one.
As a Catholic, Kmiec has chosen to be proabortion. He has chosen to support proabortion policies. He has chosen to support a political agenda that is intrinsically pro abortion, anti life.
All choices have consequences – in his case as a Catholic his action prove he is not in communion with the Body of Christ. Therefore, no communion.
There is no common ground in abortion. There is only truth – either abortion is the killing of a human baby or it is not. Either we believe this is wrong or it is not.
Fr. John Jenkins showed “brilliantly” how to engage pro-abort.
Excuse me? Obama was not “engaged” at ND. There was NO discussion. Obama was rewarded for his antilife public policies with a law degree.
Kmiec thinks scientists don’t believe life begins at conception?? Seriously, read a medical textbook, would ya?
And he comes across as terribly gullible. Obama hasn’t taken FOCA off the table. He’s just renaming it to make it sound more palatable.
George is coming at this very logically. Awesome!
Faith based initiatives? You mean the ones Bush put in place? Um…
“Fr. John Jenkins showed “brilliantly” how to engage pro-abort. “It wasn’t just the invitation that was controverial… It was also the acceptance.””
What a joke. Obama played Jenkins like a fiddle and then rubbed the collective face of Catholicism is his pile of crap.
Is that Professor Iscariot I see onstage?
Kmiec: President has taken FOCA off the table. Scientists don’t say life begins at conception. They say properties are there for nascient human life. They will not say that that results in a legal conclusion of personhood.
It’s not the scientists job to define the legal conclusions, they simply need to declare what is there – a human being.
As for personhood – that’s a non-issue. We can “scientifically” prove it’s impossible for a human being to demonstrate their personhood after their body has been shredded to pieces. Those who disagree can volunteer to prove their point.
The idea that the interests of the children should be taken into account is simply off the table.
The entire crux of the problem.
Kmiec isn’t gullible. He is a power-hungry middle-aged man who is trying to walk the tight-rope between his desire for power and prestige and trying to be a Catholic in good standing.
He’s trying to serve two masters.
Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Civil discusssion?
I can gurantee that if 3,700 five year olds were being killed every single day in this country there wouldn’t be much civil discussion going on. Heads would be rollin’.
What a crock!
Good point, angel.
And Jill, don’t stop posting! I don’t get C-SPAN! :D
HisMan, you’ve been saying that a lot. What should we be doing, in your opinion?
(I agree with you that there would be no civil discussion, however, I’m curious to know what your solution is.)
I wonder how civil “Judgement Day” will be when the Lord separates the wheat from the tares, the sheep from the goats, the lambs from the wolves?
Posted by: HisMan at May 28, 2009 5:37 PM
——
HisMan – ever notice Jesus reading of Isaiah 61 in the synagogue that stopped in mid-sentence?
Here’s the verse:
2 to proclaim the year of the LORD’s favor
and the day of vengeance of our God,
to comfort all who mourn,
When he proclaims the day of vengeance of our God….
I think the pro-life movement needs to get more vocal and more active and in greater number.
How many people do you know say they are pro-life and simply do nothing or, don’t know what to do?
I would say that there is probably 10,000 pro-lifers who do nothing for everyone like us who at least take the time to blog on it.
What does anyone do when he wants to get the team motivated? That’s what I think we should do. People’s hearts have to be rended on this issue. Right now it’s too much head and not heart. My God, to say that having a civil discussion is somehow a “good” thing, when analyzed in the context of a million plus children being murdered every single year is absolutely ludicrous.
As for me, I want to be as provacative as possible and say what I know people are thinking but are too cowardly to say themselves. Let’s forget about oursleves and say what needs to be said about this horrific thing called abortion.
I mean what would you say if 5,000 two year olds were being killed every day? What would you do? Is there any question whatsoever?
Instead of a Catholic University backdrop in that photo, how about seperimposing a photo of a ripped apart and murdered child there, the victim of an abortion. You’d think people would get the point?
AHH! I can not believe that the debunked Eric Zorn story is still getting traction.
I guess it’s true when they say a lie can get half way around the world before the truth gets its shoes on!
we all knew Jill was a proabort in disguise. Sheesh!
Chris:
We are told that if we believe that we have the mind of Christ which I also think means we have His heart as well.
My mind, which is Christ’s mind is saying I hate abortion, I want it to stop now, and I am really, really pissed off about it. My mind wants not so much take vengeance on people as I just want it to stop. My heart is in agony not just over the millions of Innocent children that are being slaughtered every year but the destruction of souls that is being wrought by its performance. Abortion kills me.
Abortion is an affront to the creative nature of God, it negates God as Creator,
Abortion denies the power of God to right a wrong, it negates God as Redeemer,
Abortion makes that which is good, the birth of human life, into that which is evil, the death of human life, and then calls it good, the very definition of blasphemy,
Abortion negates the resurrection power of God as it takes flesh that is alive in it’s earthly abode (the womb) and kills it, while God takes that flesh which is dead in it’s earthly abode (the grave) and desires to make it alive,
Abortion’s desire is to take that which was composed from the chaotic array of elemental molecules into a symphony of life infused with an eternal soul, and turn it back to the entropy of randomness, chaos, nothingness, uselessness.
Abortion is against all that is hopeful, all that requires faith for success; for it’s solution; annihilation, it’s goal; death, it’s dream; breaking God’s heart, it’s vision, Satan’s ultimate power.
Abortion is a counterfeit, for the claw prints of Satan are everywhere to be found in its performance;
Abortion disguises hate as love, bondage as freedom, choice as maturity, sin as righteousness, political correctness as wisdom,
Abortion pits men against women, mothers against their children, fathers against God, Yes, abortion is Satan’s feeble attempt at killing God Himself, for abortion is a metaphor for Satan; it is his coat of arms, his family crest, his logo, his brand, it belongs to him……for he laughs at its willing proponents as they craft their own self-destruction, mantled in self-deception.
Copyright 2007, 2008, 2009 by HisMan
HisMan, I think I understand where you’re coming from. Sometimes the gruesomeness of abortion just overwhelms me and I can almost think of nothing else…none of the good and the blessings around me. It’s hard for me to be in that place.
I used to be one of those people who thought, “Yeah, of course I’m pro-life!” but never realized the horror and reality of what abortion was, and never did anything about it. Then I worked at a Catholic bookstore, where I saw the very short video, “The Hard Truth.” It changed my whole life, and I prayed that God would use me in whatever way He chose to help put an end to this inexcusable barbarism. And He has, in ways I never dreamed He could.
Like you, I wait for the day of judgment. Sometimes I wish it would just happen now. Thankfully, I am not Him. I do not know why He tarries, other than that in His mercy, He is still calling to every unredeemed soul on this planet.
When the infant sons of God’s people were being thrown into the Nile, and when Herod ordered the baby boys to be killed, God’s people suffered. They were unable to simply overtake the governments, unable to simply take it by force (which, of course, is also what many believed Christ had come to do). What we can do is what we’re doing, and pray and keep speaking the Truth, keep sharing His love, keep the truth about abortion in the minds of the people. I pray God will soften their hearts. I have seen Him do it. I wish He would work more quickly, I really do…but I have to trust that He knows what He is doing.
Professor George was awesome! Kmiec was out of his league.
HisMan, I love what you wrote. Thank you.
I simply can’t believe that a man in Kmiec’s position gets his information from Zorn? Really?
How can he form an educated intelligent position on a subject if he doesn’t take the time to learn about it.
Bottom line: FOCA isn’t important. Babies aren’t important. Abortion is a non-issue for this ignorant politician.
Thanks for posting your comments on Jill’s site, Prof. New!
That having been said, the best word to describe Doug Kmiec would be evasive. He tried to argue that other issues trumped sanctity of life issues when voting. He tried to make the case that the new stem cell regulations were part of a reasonable compromise. He said that denying holy communion to Catholic politicians who support legal abortion was counterproductive. Finally, he argued that science has not come to a consensus about the sanctity of human life. He was all over the place and on no issue was he particularly persuasive.
Well he never did actually answer Glendon’s question about how abortions will be lowered if funding is increased and laws are less restricted.
In fact he ignored the question completely because of course any reasonable person knows that you will never stop a behavior if you pay for it and loosen the laws restricting the behavior! duh!
Secondly, Kmiec is living in the 1850’s when it comes to biology. Maybe prolifers should undertake to mail Kmiec copies of chapters on developing human life from various biology and embryology texts. This won’t violate copyright laws and may do the poor man some good. (That and denying him Holy Communion.)
Actually, thanks to all – including Doug Kmiec. I believe he’s sincere in his convictions, to the extent he is aware of the materials. If this discussion helps him dig deeper into the issues, for instance discussing the BAIPA with Jill, then that’s a good thing.
I definitely think Kmiec needs to be educated about conception. I don’t know where he’s getting his information, but it’s not from a textbook.
Chris: I believe Kmiec is quite sincere in his convictions and that’s the problem.
He simply doesn’t believe that unborn babies should be protected.
He’s outside of Catholic teaching and he’s woefully uninformed.
I think it will take alot more than just a session with Professor George to straighten him out.
Kel:
God calls each one of us to a different role in this monumental battle which if we could see it on the “big screen” would dwarf the Star Wars epic in it’s scope and magnitude.
Abortion is a clear sign and evidence of Satan’s existence. We must not forget that Satan was able to convince 1/3 of the angels in Heaven, angels that saw God, knew God and were in His presence, to still rebel. The fact that one can be a pro-abort, and even claim the name of Christ, is evidence of Satan’s power of deception as well. And we are given ample warning of this in God’s Word so, we are all without excuse.
God never wanted a single abortion. How could an almighty and magnificent and holy God command, “be fruitful and multiply” and ever accept a human justification for abortion? This is absolutely ludicrous.
God can only create, He can only love. The destruction comes when we choose to withdraw from that creative power and love by immersing ourselves in willing self-deception and not accepting His Son fully and unconditionally as presented in His Word, the only offer of peace each one of us gets.
To think that abortion is justifiable in any way and thusly try to justify it “intellectually”, as Mr. Kmiec tries to do, reveals a mind that does not understand or know God in the least. Mr. Kmiec has never met the true and living Christ, he has only met a religious christ, one that does not exist.
Having said all that, it is our job to warn, to rebuke, to admonish, to teach, to correct and most of all to agape people and realize that most of the time we get crucified for doing so. That is the mind of Christ. We are not of this world.
“He said that denying holy communion to Catholic politicians who support legal abortion was counterproductive”
giving them communion is counterproductive, don’t they know that when they go up there believing abortion is perfectly fine that they are receiving damnation? This guy explains it well…
http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/08/25/should-politicians-who-support-abortion-receive-communion.htm
I call on the Church of Christ, who oversee Pepperdine University, and being made aware of Mr. Kmiec’s lack of scholarly study and research on such a monumental subject as abortion, to immediately demand the resignation of Mr. Kmiec from that university.
Sorry Chris, Mr, Kmiec acted in the capacity of a false prophet when he mislead how many millions of Catholics in his endorsement of Obama and therefore, abortion? Look up what God thinks of false prophets.
Persoanlly I am not willing to allow one more child be aborted so that Mr. Kmiec can take the time to learn the truth.
If this discussion did anything it showed us how weak the pro-abortion side is.
We pro-lifers should be ashamed of being afraid of the bogeyman.
I don’t know why they are having their picture with Kmiec.
HisMan 6:29- I completely agree.
sort of off topic, but I just got my latest issue of “Celebrate Life” magazine from American Life League and there’s an interview with our own Blogmistress, Jill. (This isn’t a news stand magazine, its one you get if you’ve donated to ALL in the past).
And Doug Kmirec needs to read an embryology textbook AND take basic biology again, cause humans don’t magically appear after 9 months!
You’ve got it right, HisMan. The biggest hurdle of all is our own passivity and apathy.
But there is no reason to give up. We just have to keep speaking, clearly, effectively, and persistently … the way Prof. George does. I loved his clarity compared to Kmiec’s obfuscation. Kmiec’s goal is a spot on the Supreme Court — presumably to replace Kennedy when his time comes to leave the court. He’s just another opportunist willing to sell out.
Unfortunately, we need to get smarter in our strategies . . . and go for education of young people BEFORE they fall victim to their first abortion. If we can do that, they’ll never have a second or a third — which more than 50% do. If we can reduce abortions by 10% a year, this battle will be over in 20 years if not sooner.
Strangely, we haven’t really tried that before. We keep trying to work the other end . . . when women are walking up the path to the abortion mill. That’s much too late. I’ve held more than 30 seminars for teens and we go from 35% prolife to more than 50% in 3 hours. The biggest gains come from the confused kids in the middle. So it can be done.
Check out our website: http://tinyurl.com/dc8skx. We’ll be posting a whole new program along these lines, and we need more young people to help.
PS. That link seems to be broken. Try http://www.movementforabetteramerica.org
Posted by: HisMan at May 28, 2009 6:37 PM
HisMan – I know about prophecy and false prophets. Don’t take this the wrong way. I came away with a slightly different view of where Kmiec is coming from, and while I don’t agree with his approach, I’m not ready to start throwing stones. Abortion is an insidious thing; it is child sacrifice, like that found in the Old Testament. But I’m not seeing Kmiec advocating that at all, he simply saying that we should sincerely try a different approach when discussing this with others, which I think he did, but I’m also seeing some tinges of regret/concern. Robert George’s approach to discussing this issue with Professor Kmiec in an open, candid manner is good, and educational. We need deliberation, even among those who profess Life, so we might all work as one for God’s glory.
Ultimately we have a broad education problem on our hands because not enough people understand the intrinsic equality and dignity of each human being. The more opportunities to focus solidly on this message and how that leads to Life, the better. Rom 8:28
Chris:
I’m not throwing stones I’m raising my shield of faith.
Kmiec spoke as an authority to Catholics. He is a smart guy and he is very, very dangerous. Face it, he delivered the Catholic vote to Obama and then was the “in” for Obama to Notre Dame. In this I think Catholics were as wise as monkeys and as gentle as doves when they should have been as wise as serpents and gentle as doves. They were made fools of and Kmiec was the ring leader.
Look, if he was able to suck in the Church of Christ, THE most extreme fundamentalist church on the planet, to teach at Pepperdine, he is capable of anything. I say it again, be aware of false prophets.
If you think Kmiec has gotten this far just to give up on his goal because he is just now “getting” it, look, I’ve got a used car I’d like to sell you. I mean if he is a Catholic and receiving communion, is he not filled with the Spirit? Well does the Spirit contradict Himself or is Kmiec simply not listening and a “son of disobedience”?
I think your are giving him way too much. If he is the political opportunist as many on this site see him, he deserves the full condemnation of the pro-life movement. We need to treat the enemies of the pro-life movement as the pro-aborts treated Thomas, Bork and many others.
In short he needs to feel God’s wrath and rejection before he sees God’s mercy and grace. The “tinges of regret/concern” you think he feels should not be mistaken for cunning. My spirit senses that this guy is full of himself and that’s all he cares about. He’s a perfect fit for Obama and a perfect plant fot the next SCJ. He’s a male, his abortion stance is defensible, he’s Catholic, ba-da-bing-ba-da-boom.
Mr. Kmiec, if you read this post and are feeling tinges of regret/concern please say so on this site. Here’s your chance. Confess now as the Word commands and you will be healed.
This is a profile in courage:
The State of Arizona Treasurer, Mr. Dean Martin, lost his wife Kerry shortly after giving birth to their son Austin. Last night his son Austin died.
Please read this message from a truly pro-life champion in Arizona:
“Treasurer Dean Martin has just announced that his newborn son, Austin Michael Martin, passed away just before midnight last night. From his Press Conference this afternoon, Martin tearfully shared, “it was not the miracle we prayed for, but we got the miracle we needed.” Arizona Right to Life joins Treasurer Martin in mourning the loss of Austin, as well as the loss of Martin’s wife, Kerry, who passed away late Monday night, shortly after giving birth to Austin.
Always the champion of life and continuing the legacy of his wife’s equally faithful commitment, in his Press Conference Martin said, “…the reason I chose to come out and speak to you today is I know many expectant mothers who have heard this news are probably very worried–I know Kerry would have been. But I want you to know that the events that led to Kerry’s death are rare, and she would not want you to worry. Hug your family, and cherish the miracle of life but don’t worry.” Martin said that in the coming days, he will reveal more information about the circumstances surrounding his wife’s death, in order to help asuage public fears about childbirth.
Austin was born at 7:31pm on May 25th, 2009, weighing 8 pounds and measuring 21.5 inches in length. About the days since Austin’s birth, Martin tearfully explained, “God gave me three days to know my son, as my wife got to know him for 9 months.” Martin said that he is comforted by the knowledge that Austin and his mom Kerry have been reunited in Heaven. The complete Press Conference can be viewed here.*
http://gannett.a.mms.mavenapps.net/mms/rt/1/site/gannett-phoenix-531-pub01-live/current/launch.html?maven_playerId=videopage&maven_referralObject=1135502243&maven_referrer=facebook
Arizona Right to Life extends its sincere condolences to the extended family.
Treasurer Martin said that details on services will be released to the public as soon as they are confirmed. In the mean time, he has requested that the public honor Kerry’s memory by emailing their anecdotes and memories of her to dean@americanvisuals.com.
Kmiec went to Eric Zorn for information on Obama and BAIPA? I don’t know if I should laugh or cry.
Why didn’t Kmiec contact Jill first??
HisMan, such sad news. :( For this man to have lost his wife and son in such a manner…I just can’t imagine. I will be praying for him.
That having been said, the best word to describe Doug Kmiec would be evasive. He tried to argue that other issues trumped sanctity of life issues when voting. He tried to make the case that the new stem cell regulations were part of a reasonable compromise. He said that denying holy communion to Catholic politicians who support legal abortion was counterproductive. Finally, he argued that science has not come to a consensus about the sanctity of human life. He was all over the place and on no issue was he particularly persuasive.
I don’t think any of that is being “evasive” it’s just that Doug didn’t agree with the polemicist party line. Honestly, I wonder what the polemicists will do if abortion is made illegal…Care about the poor? Work on banning the death penalty? Nope. Face it, the abortion issue makes you $$ and it is all you know. One issue voters are rightfully marginalized in times of economic hardship. Who wants to listen to someone with their head up a hole when the economy is going down the tubes. And who wants to listen to a “pass the buck” conservative when we’ve got a president who has stepped up to the plate. God bless Bristol Palin, she’s taking responsability for her actions. I doubt anyone else in the pro-life movement has one iota the integrity of that teenager. And that is sad!
My prayers are with the Dean Martin family in AZ. How terribly sad.
Chris, I still think you are far too generous towards Kmiec. I think he is like most politicians who support abortion: they talk about finding common ground, of which there is none, and then work towards entrenching their ideology.
In his mind (and others like him) the common ground is working towards making abortion rare. However, they don’t see it as something that should be completely eliminated. In other words, because abortion is tied to women’s freedom etc, it is something that will always be necessary – even a necessary evil.
The bottom line here is that we believe all human life is sacred and people like Kmiec do not.
Kmiec is the typical proabort Catholic – he believes his social activism in other areas makes up for his support for abortion. And he therefore, can’t see why he should be punished by the Catholic church.
My sincerest condolences to Dean Martin.
God bless the Martin family. How very tragic!
His Man, your post @5:57 PM is the best to date!!! I hope you don’t mind, but I’d like to run off some copies and hand them out to my PL group! I think some PCers just might benefit as well!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I couldn’t believe it when I saw that Kmiec said:
“Scientists don’t say life begins at conception. They say properties are there for nascient human life. They will not say that that results in a legal conclusion of personhood.”
Are we back to the 70’s? Please, get your facts straight from a scientific source. This guy is some lawyer, he needs to spend a little more time on discovery-like getting SCIENTIFIC information from a scientific source. I guess you can overlook the facts when you want to mislead yourself. But to mislead others, even a more grave sin.
I sure hope Kmiec does some real research on O’s position on infanticide. Are you kidding, he is taking his information from Zorn and the Trib? This is very disheartening. Can’t he use the interner and HEAR what Obama said? Really, my kids could do better research than him.
It’s called intellectual pride and naive vulnerability to personal attention/reward. The devil is having a field day nowadays with such weak openings in foolish men to work with. And once boxed in(especially when one becomes recognized in the public domain), the prideful would need a miraculous dose of humility to ever admit their stupid mistakes.
It doesn’t seem like there are enough prayers for such people since there are just so many of them today.
Kmiec would do well to reconsider his own words from 2002 (Wikipedia):
When asked what it “mean[s] to teach within a Catholic framework”, Kmiec responded:
Just consider the first year course in contracts. The Catholic emphasis of the study of this course explores not just how contracts are formed or what remedies exist for breach, but also the justice of keeping one’s promises and paying a just or family wage, for example. By contrast, most law schools have become entirely utilitarian and consequentialist – believing that ends justify means – and they’ve cast aside first principles, the most prominent of which is the belief that moral reality can be known and understood by men and women. Although our students are not all Catholic, they all have a sincere desire to explore the relationship of faith and law, and to be of service through the legal profession.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Kmiec
HisMan & angel – I’m not saying I agree with Kmiec’s approach or his position, but for the time being, if Jill is providing him with documentation and he is willing to look at it, then why attack him? If someone is boxing you on the ears, what’s the likelihood you’ll listen to them?
Steve Wagner has a little sound-bite that sums up what he does:
I think that’s pretty wise, and falls in line with the approach our Lord took.
Perfection is God’s glory while repentance is man’s.
True repentance is not possible without full faith in God’s perfection. Your issue with the on-slaught against the innocents is one with God and not Doug Kmiec.
Chris,
It is Divine Providence that Jill had a chance to witness the debate and speak with Kmiec last night. I pray that Kmiec will reeducate himself on the issue and “see the light”, so to speak.
Janet, I agree!
Posted by: Dennis Howard at May 28, 2009 7:51 PM
Dennis,
The pro-abort side is doing all they can to keep the abortion procedure (maybe Planned Parenthood could donate some videos of baby killing for the students education) and literature about and the gestational stages of human life out of schools. God bless you in your mission to educate the children. I agree this is the best path to ending the scourge of abortion.
Kmiec is misguided like every other Catholic that disregards the teaching in the Catechism on abortion. It really couldn’t be spelled out any clearer and they choose to live outside the Catholic faith when they accept the killing of children in their mother’s womb.
heather:
Copy away, Xerox needs the money.
Well Chris and Janet, you may have alot ALOT more work ahead of you:
Kmiec, staunch Catholic that he is, is now advocating that marriage be abolished:
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/may/09052903.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=48652
Kmiec should be denied Holy Communion. What a scandal he is to the Catholic faith.
angel,
Well, he’s not exactly advocating for marriage to be abolished, as I can surmise from skimming the first article. He’s proposing calling non-religious ceremonies “civil unions (civil license)”. The Sacrament of Matrimony would still be performed for Catholic couples….I’m not sure what the traditional (church) practices are for Protestant denominations. Are ordained ministers required in every case? Anyways, I’d think the bishops are already denying him from receiving the Eucharist. I’d have to read the rest and think about the ramifications…
Thanks Angel:
I always trust the gift of discernemnt the Spirit has given me about people.
Kmiec is a false prophet.
“Kmiec, staunch Catholic that he is, is now advocating that marriage be abolished:”
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/may/09052903.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/public/content/article.aspx?RsrcID=48652
“Kmiec should be denied Holy Communion. What a scandal he is to the Catholic faith.”
Posted by: angel at May 29, 2009 5:29 PM
After reading both articles… yes, Kmiec is quite confused. He’s sounding like the pro-aborts who used the ambiguous word “choice” to frame the abortion debate. Let’s call gay unions “civil license” to legitimize them. (?)
I don’t agree with Kmiec’s proposal and for what it’s worth, I don’t think gays and lesbians are going to be completely satisfied. They want to “get married” not “get civilly licensed”. As Princeton University law professor Robert George said in the CNS article, “I don’t know where Professor Kmiec is getting his idea, but it’s a very, very bad one.”
no he’s not confused Janet. He is a heretic. Period.
He knows what side his bread is buttered on. He cares for nothing except political expediency.
I have nothing, absolutely NOTHING but contempt for this man.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at May 28, 2009 11:23 PM
“Who wants to listen to someone with their head up a hole when the economy is going down the tubes.”
—————————————————–
ylt,
You really shouldn’t talk about pbho that way.
He is your president after all.
I can’t speak for my fellow pro-lifers, but being an advocatate for a victim who has no voice or even constitutional recognition has never been a money maker or even a positive cash flow situation for me.
I just rest in the grateful knowledge that there are some children who are alive today who would otherwise be dead if I had not acted.
What was it Bill Ayers said, “I just wish I could have done more.”
yor bro ken
‘Just playing devils advocate.’
That is what came to mind as I viewed the replay of the discussion on cspan.
Just the watched the Great Debaters the other day.
Debate teams were told what the topic would be, but did not know which position they would be assigned til the start of the debate.
Mr. Kmiec sure seemed like a man who was advocating a position with which he did not truly agree. He fullfilled the letter of the obligation but lacked the spirit of enthusiastism.
[“There are no American soldiers in Baghdad.” (As the humvees and tanks roll by in the background with U.S. Army painted prominently on them.)]
Kmiec seemed like a man without a country, indigent and homeless.
George seemed completely confident in himself and in the position he asserted.
Kmiec does not appear comfortable in his own skin right now. From his demeanor you would think bho lost the election.
yor bro ken
Kel: “Kmiec thinks scientists don’t believe life begins at conception?? Seriously, read a medical textbook, would ya?”
You have to understand that people from that side are presumptuous enough to believe that all they have to do when presented with a fact is to say, “Uh, no, that isn’t true,” without actually having to refute it. When I went to that one-sided “panel discussion” (ha!) on embryonic research a little more than three years ago, one of the panelists (and it was a 7-0 “balance” on the stage) brought up the “claims” that adult stem cells are treating more than 60 (at the time) diseases) and said, “It’s simply not true.” That’s it. Apparently, in his mind, you could use adult stem cells to treat (or even cure) a person right in front of the audience’s eyes, and he would just have to say, “Nope! Didn’t happen.” and he’d win the argument.
You can cite a hundred different (completely secular) sources demonstrating that a person’s life begins at fertilization, and they’ll still say, “No source actually says this.” Even when you say, “Look! Right here! I brought a transparency machine and an easel! Here are the direct quotations!” they’ll still be in full-scale denial mode.
“Yo La Tengo”: “Honestly, I wonder what the polemicists will do if abortion is made illegal…Care about the poor? Work on banning the death penalty?”
As many pro-lifers are doing right now, you mean?
“Nope. Face it, the abortion issue makes you $$ and it is all you know.”
It DOES?
Crummy post office! They keep misplacing my checks!
Signed,
The Polyphonic Spree
Wow, what a complete waste of EVERYTHING other than George’s opening statement.
Had he just written that and had it published in newspapers and online that would have been better than having to endure this damned liar Kmeic who apparently has NEVER OPENED AN EMBRYOLOGY TEXTBOOK IN HIS LIFE to see what they actually say.
Kmeic is scum and not worthy of any respect ever.