Pro-lifers protest Obama at AMA convention
With only 2 days notice, 70 pro-lifers assembled to protest Barack Obama’s speech at the American Medical Association convention in Chicago yesterday. Obama came to push his socialized health care scheme, which the abortion industry is angling to include taxpayer funded abortions. Click photos to enlarge….
According to the Pro-Life Action League…
Turnout for the protest was greater than expected….
“The overwhelming response to today’s protest is indicative of how energized the pro-life movement is in 2009,” [Communications Director Eric] Scheidler remarked. “They can see how high the stakes are right now, with the most pro-abortion president in U.S. history in the White House, and a pro-abortion Congress, too.”
The heavy turn-out by pro-lifers was in stark contrast to the handful of gay-marriage and anti-war activists who were also protesting in the barricaded protest area on the north side of Wacker Dr.
PLAL described the protest:
The pro-life protestors held graphic abortion signs depicting “Baby Malachi”, aborted at 21 weeks, with the caption, “Abortion is not health care”, as well as Stop Abortion Now signs.
Here is PLAL founder Joe Scheidler holding one such sign…
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Joe’s one of my heroes. Joe has done it all, and done it right. Very few of us can say that.
It will be interesting to see if Obama can entice the doctors with promises of more money. Greed is the operative principle whenever doctors get together.
Life begins when you stand up to Christian fascists?
I dunno. I think that might be considered Hate Speech? Which reminds me that the Holocaust Museum shooter hated Christians. So all Christians should be getting more security for their homes and places of worship.
I will not derail the post! Way to go Pro Life Action League!! So glad you are strong in number and conviction!!
Why are pro-deathers always so angry and threatened over a protest? They just don’t want to see abortion. Out of site, out of mind. They want to keep the hdden holocaust hidden!
“Life begins when you stand up to Christian fascists?”
Hmmm. Are they just projecting? Or are they saying that Obama is a Christian? Isn’t that a break from the wingnut talking point that he’s a Kenyan-born Muslim?
Odd.
I’d say a true wing nut is someone who supports abortion after seeing these pictures.
I can’t believe that this is actually legal.
yeah, I don’t really get that fascist sign at all.
When all else fails, they always have to use religion. It’s really God who they are rebelling against.
The left loonies hate us for our mere belief in God, and they hate us because we will not compromise when it comes to legalized child murder. They hate us because we call abortion murder. They take the attitude..Can’t we all just get along? Translation…Can’t you just shut up about abortion and go away?
Isn’t it funny that a former community organizer is now going to tell everyone in the world how to do their job? I still cannot believe he’s the president.
The “Christian fascists” sign was held by a counter-protester, fyi. They comingled with the pro-life protesters. You can see another counter-protester behind Joe.
God Bless Joe S. He is an inspiration to us all.
Why are pro-deathers always so angry and threatened over a protest? They just don’t want to see abortion. Out of site, out of mind. They want to keep the hdden holocaust hidden!
Posted by: heather at June 16, 2009 8:02 AM
The left loonies hate us for our mere belief in God, and they hate us because we will not compromise when it comes to legalized child murder. They hate us because we call abortion murder. They take the attitude..Can’t we all just get along? Translation…Can’t you just shut up about abortion and go away?
Posted by: heather at June 16, 2009 8:17 AM
??“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ?19? And this is the condemnation, ??that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. ?20? For ?everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
Heather,
Jesus agrees with you.
We gotta keep lettin’ our lights shine!
Ed, you’re right!:)
That “Christian Fascists” sign is all kinds of messed up, if you think about it. Since those are anti-abortion protesters, who say life begins at conception and that abortion is murder, then that would mean that that person believes that life begins when you do what those people stand in opposition to…Life begins when you have an abortion? That is some pretty screwed up thinking.
I guess I just haven’t lived yet, since you haven’t lived until you’ve had your child scraped out of your body in pieces and thrown in a waste bin. I hope nobody aborts me.
Sick people these days.
xalaxie, I’ve heard the pro-death crowd give their own opinion on when life begins. They all have their own pick. 5 months, said one. At birth, said another. One woman asked me how would I like to be forced into an incubator. They are a really twisted bunch.
Their logic is illogical. 2+2 has always = 4. Ask a pro abort. It will come out different.
Obama message. docs over charge and he will “reform them”
He will not reform litigation and malpractice suits
He wants a single payor system so he can dictate all reimbursement rates.
Good news, docs will get 3 weeks vacation and sick leave. How about overtime after 40 hours a week?
I don’t think the “Christian fascists” sign is intended to be parsed that rigorously. I think the author of the sign is just having fun opposing the issue of when life literally begins with the metaphorical saying in our culture that “life begins when . . .” (as in “life begins at 40” or “life begins when you start bungee jumping” etc. etc.) So, the sign holder is saying that, in a metaphorical sense, you really start living when you start saying no to people who would try to control the lives of others in the name of religion.
The term “Christian fascists” isn’t really my style, but I don’t think it is unreasonable speech. First, it doesn’t apply to all Christians, only certain Christians. Second, I think that religion is fair game for mockery and ridicule. After all, religion involves IDEAS with consequences for real people in real life and with consequences for public policy. So strong, even disrespectful language, criticizing religion can be a valuable part of the marketplace of ideas. To me the “Christian fascists” comment is the rhetorical equivalent of accusing “pro-choicers” of “murder.”
“…Obama came to push his socialized health care scheme..”
How many kids die, in THIS country, from lack of medical care? Are you sure you are pro-LIFE?
Does your side have ANY plan to fix this? Or, is it “out of sight, out of mind”, as Heather said?
You see, us pro-death’ers, actually care about keeping FETUS’S alive once they get OUTSIDE of the womb.
Access to quality healthcare for all Americans is “quality of life” issue that you THINK people who calls themselves “pro-LIFE” would support. Can you imagine all the Fetus’s that will be saved with proper medical care?
I’ve seen that dead fetus so much that it doesn’t even shock me anymore. “Shock and Awe” doesn’t work.
You change hearts and minds with involvement in people’s lives not posters of aborted fetuses.
Hey soonerman, that photo up there is a baby not a fetus. That maybe the medical term but in your heart you know that is a human baby.
Prochoicer,
Yes. All in “good fun!!” unless they are talking about you.
Soonerman,
How many kids in this country die for lack of medical care?
soonerman, fetus is Latin for “little one.” I ask you this..little one WHAT? Please fill in the blank.
ok…it’s a baby. Same difference.
No “shock” value at all.
You don’t change hearts and minds with “shock and awe”.
Doesn’t matter how many kids die? WE are trying to do something about it?
Your side is doing………? (Holding up signs of aborted babies…yeah, that works)
So, the party that you guys are usually part of, had congress and the Presidency for 8 years. Why is abortion still legal? Think about it…
Soonerman,
“How many kids die, in THIS country, from lack of medical care? Are you sure you are pro-LIFE?”
I’d hazard a guess that the number is fewer than the number of children who die of abortion each year. So what is your point??
lol..you guys are dealing with semantics.
FETUS or baby, it doesn’t work.
“So, the party that you guys are usually part of, had congress and the Presidency for 8 years. Why is abortion still legal? Think about it…”
It’s been legal 36 years. It takes time to change hearts and minds, but it will happen. You’re here debating the issue, right?
Carla,
Well, no, I don’t expect Christian anti-choicers to LIKE being called fascists. It is also kind of similar to Rush Limbaugh calling folks like me “feminazis.” I don’t like it, but I don’t think it is hate speech.
“So, the party that you guys are usually part of, had congress and the Presidency for 8 years. Why is abortion still legal? Think about it…”
It’s been legal 36 years. It takes time to change hearts and minds, but it will happen. You’re here debating the issue, right?
“I’d hazard a guess that the number is fewer than the number of children who die of abortion each year. So what is your point??”
Ok, since it is less, then I guess it’s ok to continue the status pro….*rolls eyes
Again, are you sure you are pro-LIFE? You do know that LIFE exist outside the womb right?
I guess it’s ok to continue killing the preborn because so many kids die for lack of medical care.
*rolls eyes*
Totally justifies abortion, Soonerman.
I don’t know that Soonerman is saying that in itself justifies abortion. He is arguing that pro-lifers elevate the fetus above all else. To me, this tendency plays out most clearly when it comes to female children. Anti-choicers are intent on saving the life of female fetuses — but then once they are born and grow up, anti-choicers (especially of the anti-contraception variety) are totally fine with them being consigned to a life of constant unwanted pregnancy (or the impractical alternative of lifelong celibacy).
Janet, good one! Right Carla. Soonerman, abortion promised to end poverty and child abuse. Why do these problems still exist after 36 years of legalized abortin on demand? Shouldn’t these problems be non-existant by now? Soonerman, child abuse is up by 1000% since the Supreme Court deemed human life desposable.
Soonerman, your Liberalism is acting up today. You might want to hurry to the doctor. {Liberalism, a mental disorder}
Yes, I’m here debating the issue but, to also understand how reicht wingers think.
With the Von Brunns of the world running around, you can never have too much information.
Seriously though, how do you make it illegal? Give me the actually process…an executive order, amend the constitution, legistlation…etc.
Hi Pro-choicer. Nice to see you!
soonerman, I’ll give you the answer. Recriminalize it! …Abortion hurts women too, sonnerman. Don’t forget that! We have women here who were hurt by abortion, and I’ve personally met plenty more as the years have rolled by.
93% of women regret their abortion!
Hi Heather, nice to see you too! Thought I would check back in — and, of course, can’t resist commenting!
soonerman, How do you feel about women who regret their abortions? I have a church meeting tonight. We PLfers {terrorists] LOL – couldn’t resist, meet this evening to discuss our sidewalk schedule for the week. Yes soonerman, I go to the clinics and try to talk women out of this terrible evil called “choice”!!! soonerman, a woman in my group had an abortion 19 years ago, and she lives with the pain and regret. What about women like her, soonerman?????
“The term “Christian fascists” isn’t really my style, but I don’t think it is unreasonable speech. First, it doesn’t apply to all Christians, only certain Christians. Second, I think that religion is fair game for mockery and ridicule. After all, religion involves IDEAS with consequences for real people in real life and with consequences for public policy. So strong, even disrespectful language, criticizing religion can be a valuable part of the marketplace of ideas. To me the “Christian fascists” comment is the rhetorical equivalent of accusing “pro-choicers” of “murder.”
Posted by: Prochoicer at June 16, 2009 10:45 AM”
———————————
Prochoicer:
Christianity is not merely an “idea” in the marketplace of “ideas”.
The focal point of Christianity is Christ Himself. If He indeed did not live and die and rise again, yes, it would be just another religious idea like all the other world religions are. In fact, all other religions are man’s attempt at reaching up to God. In contrast, Christianity is God reaching down from eternity and Heaven itself to man through His only Son. Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship initiated by the Creator Himself.
The hard facts are that Christ did live, did die via crucifixion and did rise again. For the record, over 500 people were witnesses to Him having been raised. The evidence is irrefutable and all of us are without excuse who reject Him as God’s Son.
God is not mocked nor is He stupid. Out of love, He provided enough evidence that would stand the burden of proof requirement for the establishment of fact that would meet the muster of any legal system in any part of the word at any time in history.
‘1 Corinthians 15:1-12 (New International Version)
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.
9For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. 11Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed.”‘
So Pro-choicer, if you, at a minimum, are denying that Christ lived and was crucified, you in fact, would have to contradict the testimony of thousands of people, many of whom were not Christians.
If you believe that He did not rise, you would have to believe that the more than 500 people that witnessed the risen Christ were all liars as well. Not to mention the fact that the 12 apostles were transformed from being cowardly wimps to those that would die for Christ.
And finally, there is Paul himself, who persecuted and yes even murdered Christians, when, upon encountering the living Christ, was transformed into His greatest witness and likewise the billions upon billions over the last 2000 years.
It is monumentally foolish to merely classify Christianity as as “idea”. No, it is a fact, a rock, a decision that one can solidly anchor their eternal destiny to.
To bolster one’s argument for being pro-choice by trying to trivialize Christianity is the lamest of strategies.
If we are fortunate enough to escape the abortionist and are born into this world, we are given one lifetime of unknowable length at either accepting or rejecting Christ. It is that black and white and yes, that simple.
I think both sides are talking past each other here and missing each other’s point. There are many low and middle-income families who can’t afford treatment for a critically ill child or basic preventive care due to rising medical costs, this is why they advocate medical reform. However low-cost and free elective abortions under that healthcare plan is contendable.
“{Liberalism, a mental disorder}”
If it is, then THANK GOD FOR IT.
You drink cleaner water and breathe cleaner air due to the efforts of mentally deranged liberals.
Your female arse has the right to vote due to the efforts of mentally deranged liberals.
My black arse (and my family) are not considered property thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
My interracial marriage is no longer illegal thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
Worker safety is, now, a top priority thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
“Equal pay for equal work” is still a GOAL thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
Geeze, if liberalism is a mental disorder, then I’m glad I have it.
However, that comment also points out something else about the “so-called” pro-LIFE conservatives. The fact that they think mental illness is some sort of farce or a joke. (Except, of course, when it happens to them. i.e. the author of the sentence and he’s addiction problems) When they do have these problems (like addiction), thank GOD those mentally deranged liberals, have worked for years on methods (psycho-babble), to cure it.
..Heather, turn off supreme leader Limpbaugh for a day and read a book…
PCer, glad you came back! Don’t forget, you are talking to a former PC woman. I wish you would stay and maybe one day come to our side. It’s so much nicer:)
I am on the board of a pregnancy care center. We see women for years sometimes through 2-3 of their pregnancies and beyond. :)
You would like to think we do not care about women or children already born or starving children. Simply untrue.
My black arse (and my family) are not considered property thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
soonerman, I beg your pardon? If you are black, the Supreme court didn’t agree with you back in the days of slavery!
Roe V Wade is upheld by the same court that labeled you sub human at one time. Just some food for thought.
I like to think there are two or three mindsets of the pro-choice movement: those in favor of unrestricted elective abortions, those who favor abortion rights with some restricians, and those who only favor abortion access in the case of rape or incest or endangerment to the woman’s health. The problem with any of these positions though is
“soonerman, I beg your pardon? If you are black, the Supreme court didn’t agree with you back in the days of slavery!”
I is…Missa Heather.
Indeed they didn’t, and by the very definition, that court would be considered, CONSERVATIVE!
So, who has the Mental disorder?
and soonerman, your black race is being exterminated faster than mine. Blackgenocide.com. Google Margaret Sanger, founder of Planned Parentless. Your black race is being targeted. Another, Klanned Parenthood.com!!!
Roe V Wade is upheld by the same court that labeled you sub human at one time. Just some food for thought.
..and the make-up of the court, at that time, would be considered, by most, to be what? LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE?
“soonerman, I beg your pardon? If you are black, the Supreme court didn’t agree with you back in the days of slavery!”
..the make-up of the supreme court that made the above decision on slavery would be considered what? LIBERAL or CONSERVATIVE?
lol..no brainer for most people.
Now, are you sure liberalism is as bad as supreme leader Limpbaugh has led you to believe?
soonerman, You aren’t even being appropriate. Why would you say missa Heather? You assume I’m not black? You just jumped to a conclusion.
I very much appreciate soonerman’s honesty. I understand then his concept of being ‘valued’.
Being valued stems from two things in our society:
A) from ‘rights’ – a convention where people designate an INTRINSIC worth;
+ B) our functioning – like work; – our ‘usefulness’. We get rewarded based on how necessary our work is.
The B)-part leaves out all children plus all retirees, sick and disabled folks too. This picture does not allow affiliation of any kind … from which we draw ‘A’ . If babies have no rights, we all do not either! … It says that humans are singular creatures. This is far from actuality!
I must then assume that for soonerman people do not have rights – innate worth.
you’re not, am I right?
legalizing abortion has failed to address the underlying socio-economic issues and lack of partner/family support which drives women to abortion. Also, a 2 to 3-day late term abortions in an outpatient ambulatory clinic poorly addresses those with maternal or fetal conditions which endanger her health and being preformed in a clinic which is
I was actually talking about people {the unSupreme court} making decisons about other people. It doesn’t matter to me, soonerman. The court decided that legalized child murder was acceptable. This never should have been the case!
I might be missa soonerman.
Start with my first post John. Then respond.
Either way, thank you Heather and others for the adrenaline boost and motiviation to got my fat butt to the gymn…good day.
Hi John McD!!!! *waving* gotta run. Be back.
Since when is protecting the unborn about being a liberal or a conservative, Republican or Democrat??
http://www.democratsforlife.org/
I thought this was a human issue, but apparently, to the liberal mind, it is more about race and political ideology…
HisMan,
If I understand your argument correctly, you are saying that the claims of Christianity are true and therefore they are not subject to debate in the “marketplace of ideas.” But I don’t think things that are “true” should be any more immune from criticism than any other claim, idea, or assertion. I don’t think it is “hate speech” in the same sense as mocking someone for his race or ethnicity.
inadequitly prepared to handle serious complications may in fact further endanger the woman’s health and safety. Abortions for maternal health or fetal indications are the small minority of abortions, I don’t think prolifers have any problem with them being preformed if they are absolutely necessary, in hospitals.
“soonerman, I beg your pardon? If you are black, the Supreme court didn’t agree with you back in the days of slavery!”
“I is…Missa Heather.”
Soonerman,
Please answer Heather’s question at 11:56, Why would you say such a thing? Because you have no other comeback to the question? It is condescending of you to think that any of us would dream of addressing you without complete respect. Why do you mock us?
Yes pro life people are energized like never before.
We are winning this battle, praise God.
Rachael C,
I am not against an emergency C section in a hospital setting to try and save the life of the mother and the baby.
Ok, for my series of posts to make sense, start with the first and then read them together, I had to keep them short because my phone’s internet browser tends to time out. Also, prayers would be appreciated as I was in a minor car accident last night, which totaled my car.
I disagree with the notion (raised by Heather in this thread) that abortion is similar to racial eugenics. That would imply that BLACK WOMEN are targeting their own race for extermination! That makes no sense at all.
Oh lord. Soonerman, first of all Von Brun was a lefty. Hate to break it to you, but Fox news and George Bush were also on his hate list.
You seem to come here waving a big flag of talking points, but not actually thinking logically about any of the issues. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you’re simply uninformed.
You say that pro-lifer’s don’t care about children once they’re born. This is a common leftwing talking point, but it doesn’t have much basis in reality.
Conservatives are actually more generous, on average, than liberals. We quietly give to causes we care about. We don’t typically do things Oprah style and have press conferences announcing our giving.
Because of this, we’re painted as greedy and stodgy. So be it.
We care about children. We adopt children. We work to help women facing crisis pregnancies. We volunteer our time and our money.
Really though, none of that matters. Even if we *were* heartless jerks who never helped anyone, would it make killing children any more right?
Instead of baselessly attacking people, attack arguments. You will find that the pro-choice side has no leg to stand on.
Joanne,
Amen!
Logic is a powerful weapon.
I am so sorry about your car!! Are you ok?
I will be praying for you!!
Lauren,
Amen, amen, amen!
* * *
FYI for both pro life and pro death,
3,700! That’s the average number of abortions (legal murders) performed DAILY in the United States. Also, we have lost 50,000,000 people since 1973 because of “choice.” We don’t have to be religious to see the gravity of this reality.
I haven’t checked, but I am certain that we are not losing 3,700 children daily due to lack of health care. I can see where the “life and death” crisis is!
President Obama himself admitted that those in need can visit emergency rooms at no cost to them. We pay the fees through increased insurance premiums. No child should be dying in this country for lack of healthcare. Especially when ERs will treat them for FREE. (Again the ER thing is what Obama said in his speech yesterday)
Have a great day! There are 3,700 babies who won’t because of free choice!
I am skeptical of the statistic Heather quoted that says 93% of women who have abortions regret it. I suspect most women regret facing an unwanted pregnancy, but that is different than saying they feel they made the wrong choice under the circumstances or that they wish they had been forced to give birth.
Even if it is true, I don’t see why ANY of us should be protected from decisions we might regret. I think I would rather regret something than have someone save me from myself as though I am some kind of child.
Ok, one more post.
Heather, you talked about the mental disease of liberalism. I showed you all the positives. Now, it’s devolved into a black history thing. The point is that, despite what supreme leader, Limpbaugh says, liberalism has done and continues to do A LOT for this country and it’s citizens. Unfortunately, you seemed to have missed the point.
You bash a whole ideaology based on one issue…abortion. When in fact, if there were no abortion, MOST of you would be LIBERAL. (in my opinion, that’s why conservatives don’t really do much to stop abortion other than campaign about it. They need your votes!)
I imagine, in a world with no abortion, a “community organizer” takes on a whole new meaning to some of you guys. Instead of mocking it, now, you are impress that someone has worked to provide shelter, food and overall better qaulity of life for the poor, elderly, sick and disabled. Now, health care for all becomes a pro-LIFE issue to some of you. Now, some of you actually believe in clean air and clean water. Now, some of you don’t agree with torture. Now, some of you don’t believe in sending people to their deaths unless it’s for a legitimate purpose(Iraq War). Some of you might even believe, like Dick Chenney all of a sudden, that all Americans should have to right to marry whom they love.
It is only abortion that makes you conservative.
As for being Black, it doesn’t matter. However, I will ask you this one question. On the news, when you hear a story about a horrible crime and they show a picture of the suspect and it is a black person, how do you feel? How do you feel, if it is a picture of a white person?
Just curious…be back later to see your response.
Soonerman, I started out my adult life as liberal as can be. I actually campaigned for Kerry. I even had a bumper sticker. (Everyone who knows me can stop laughing now!)
I worked for MASSPIRG.
When I realized that abortion was murder and that it was not something I could support, I remained a liberal.
Then I started looking in to other issues. Is “spreading the wealth around” really a good idea? Do I support a health system run by the same people who run the DMV? Are Republican’s really greedy jerks who hate the little guy?
I discovered that the answer to these questions was no.
On the other hand, I do believe that we should be good stewards of our Earth and try to protect it. However, I disagree with liberals who believe that we should be FORCED into these measures which have questionable benefit and harm people working in industries such as coal.
I don’t have a problem with civil unions, as long as the church isn’t obligated to acknowledge them.
I’m really much more libertarian than liberal or conservative. I just believe that no one has the right to kill another human being, be it the government via the electric chair or a mother via a curett.
Pro-lifers don’t fit neatly inside a political box because we are a very diverse group of people. Our common thread is the support of life. The media paints a very characatured version of us that has little basis in reality.
Thanks Carla. When I was on my way to work last night, an animal ran out in front of my car, I swerved to miss it, took out a mailbox which shattered my passenger window and lost control of the car, hitting a nearby farming fence which shattered my windshield. Got checked out by EMS and went on to the hospital to just be on the safe side. I checked out fine, a sprained ankle & strained neck.
“Oh lord. Soonerman, first of all Von Brun was a lefty. Hate to break it to you, but Fox news and George Bush were also on his hate list.”
Yeap, a white guy, who hates interracial marriage, was part of the NEO Nazi movement, hates all people with brown skin and talks about the opresssion of the white man goes into a holocaust museum to kill a bunch of jews and shoots the BLACK security guard first. Definitely a lefty….(sic).
lol…so is the KKK, and all other NEO-Nazi movements..
You conservatives are so desperate, you just flat out lie now to make yourselves feel better.
Yes, we know you NEOs are ratcheting up the propaganda now on the Von Brunn thing after being completely SILENT for the first week.(I wonder why?) You had to wait on the centralized think tank to tell you how to “spin” it to save yourselves from looking so foolish when you bashed the DHS report on reicht wing home grown terror.
However, you can “spin” it all you want. However, most logically thinking people know which side of the fence this guy comes from and, thus, where people like him get his motivation.
However, you said “..also”. Care to list.
Pro-choicer:
Christ was born.
Christ was crucified.
Christ rose.
Christ will come again.
That is the “Good News” to some, but “Bad News” to others.
Debate those facts all you want. That is your God-given right. His love is not forced on anyone. Conversely, hell is not forced on anyone either. Both are choices we make based on your “marketplace of ideas” context.
My point is that Christianity is not an “idea”. It was not conjured up in the mind of any man. Christianity is God who became a human being in an attempt to show us His love for us. Nothing else will be offered, there are no other “ideas” to select. God is not a commodity to be viewed, selected and consumed as in a marketplace. In fact, salvation is a gift from God and not something that can be bought, traded, bartered or paid for. We either accept the gift or reject the gift. The outcome is inexorable and not subject to the opinion of mere human beings.
Since the whole of Christianity is based on “life”, one who understands this simply cannot be in any way, shape or form for the termination of innocent human beings in the womb. A conceptus is not merely a fertilized egg for that only represents that physical portion of a human being subject to a time line, a beginning and an end. In fact, a conceptus will never receive more of an eternal spirit or more of an eternal soul after conception.
We are simply spiritual beings who, for a short time, are living in physical bodies. This is what makes abortion so reprehensible to a true Christian and why we are so horrified by Obama’s answer to the question as to when life begins. His answer indicated a person who has no concept whatsoever of the faith he supposedly professes.
Realize this…..there are two opposing forces in the universe: One represents life and one represents death. Death had her opportunity to swallow up life when Christ was crucified. God proved that He has control over everything even death itself, when His Son rose from the dead.
The simple fact is that one chooses either the death side or the life side. To try make faith in Christ compatible with anything that involves death is supremely illogical.
Soonerman,
“As for being Black, it doesn’t matter.”
That’s an odd response. Are you black, or was that just a quick response to heather’s comments? If you really are, I highly doubt you would have made the “Missa” comment. I doubt you are old enough to remember back that to those days.
You’ve got the wrong idea about Conservativism. I suggest you read Mark R. Levin’s Eye-opening new book “Liberty and Tyranny: A Conservative Manifesto”. It’s been on the New York Times Best Sellers List for 11 weeks now.
HisMan, why is “death” a girl?
And this is a reminder for readers here and the general public…If you see or hear an emergency vehicle (ambulance, fire/rescue, or police department) coming from behind or towards you PULL OVER out of their way! Although I’m fortuant mine was not a serious emergency, if there are lights and/or sirens it is and valuable time for the patient or victim could be lost waiting on other vehicles.
Soonerman:
Your historical perspectives are way off. I wrote my Master’s Thesis on this topic as far as it concerns the woman suffrage movement, so I know a little bit about it. You can’t go around saying everything “good” happened because of “liberals” because those tags of “liberal” and “conservative” mean nothing in a historical context.
Suffragettes fought for women’s right to vote in part because they believed that women were inately more morally pure than men and would have a positive influence on the world because of their peaceful nature. The same women also supported prohibition and were generally anti-immigrant. Whether good or bad, these causes were a mix of what would currently be called “liberal” and “conservative”, not one or the other.
Abolitionists were often motivated by their religious purity. They did not support universal suffrage or equal rights for women.
Worker safety also has elements of liberal and conservative. Some groups worked for shorter work days for women because they felt that women were the “weaker sex”. Unions refused entry to blacks and other minorities.
So stop shouting at the top of your lungs that “liberals” must be right now because “liberals” had it right throughout history. People who fought for equality, who recongnized the equality of all people, had it right in history. Some of them were liberals and some were conservatives. The point is to do what is RIGHT regardless, and it is RIGHT to defend the unborn.
Soonerman, you are really showing your ignorance.
There are a lot of racist democrats. Von Braun thought that Bush was responsible for 911 and that Fox News was a propaganda arm for his new world order.
He wasn’t a conservative nut job. He was just a nut job. He had conspiracy theories all across the political spectrum, many of them very liberal.
“even a cursory look at his professed views shows he is the avowed enemy of the GOP in its current incarnation. Among many others, Mr. von Brunn hates Rupert Murdoch, Fox News (that means you, too, Shep!), George W. Bush and John McCain. And according to the FBI, Mr. von Brunn even had in his vehicle the address of the Weekly Standard, home base of the dreaded “neo-cons.”
Seems Mr. von Brunn wasn’t a big fan of the Iraq War and also believed that 9/11 was an “inside job.” Given this political sketch, Mr. von Brunn would feel at home at Camp Casey, Cindy Sheehan’s antiwar outpost in Crawford, Texas, and at the Daily Kos convention, rather than partaking in a National Review cruise with pro-Israeli war hawks Mark Steyn and Victor Davis Hanson. ”
http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jun/15/the-left-cries-racist-in-a-crowded-country/?feat=home_headlines
HisMan,
Maybe we don’t really understand each other. You say that Christianity is not an “idea” because (you claim) it did not originate in the mind of human beings. But that isn’t quite what I mean by an “idea.”
Human beings didn’t invent gravity, but I would say that our observation and description of it is an “idea.” The thing is we CAN’T really escape the human mind because everything we know about or perceive in life is filtered through our fallible minds. This includes everything from my knowledge of gravity to your Christian faith. Sometimes we human beings get things right and sometimes we get things terribly wrong.
It seems like the word “idea” is getting in the way, so I will rephrase my contention. Everything we believe is appropriately subject to vigorous debate and vigorous debate may include ridicule and mockery. Of course, ridicule and mockery can go both ways — they can be effective rhetorical tactics or they can serve only to make the person employing them look foolish.
Rachael,
That sounds horrifying. I hope you mend well!!
PC,
It would have been a more “informed” choice for me if I had actually been told what happens in an abortion and how it could adversely affect my life. Things like my baby died that day, I would suffer nightmares, depression, suicidal thoughts and a suicide attempt.
Unfortunately, I was not told a thing and what I was told was a lie!! I will always regret my abortion.
Now you will say…well, not everyone regrets their abortions, Carla. And around and around we go…..
“I doubt you are old enough to remember back that to those days.”
…are you talking about in the 70s, when I was in 4th grade, and got in to trouble for defending myself against kids using racial slurs…
..maybe, you are talking about in the 80s, when my first girlfriend’s father beat her cause he saw he saw his white daughter walking out of the movie theater holding hands with me…
…You could be refering to the 90s, when my wife and I were told that our relationship was not biblical based on our respective races..
Here are a few things that I was told, by white adults, as a kid.
I’m the decendant of Cain, as my skin is the mark that God put on him.
I’m naturally intellectually inferior.
I’m not a “N” cause I’m nice.
I have so many more experiences to tell but, that would take all night to type up.
Now, am I black?
However, my race is un-important. Again, it was a response to the Cult of Limpbaugh bumper sticker gotcha phrase of “liberalism is a mental disorder”.
For those of you following the work of Operation Outcry we have collected 4,200 declarations from men and women who have been hurt by abortion. More come in everyday!!
If you have been hurt by abortion, please fill out a declaration online and let your voice be heard in prolife legislation!!!
http://www.operationoutcry.org
Soonerman,
I would like to add that it was the Republicans (who are more or less to some extent aligned with the conservative perspective) who fought slavery and segregation.
Soonerman, I am sorry that you have been the victim of other people’s bigotry.
What I don’t understand is why you believe that conservatives hold a monopoly on bigotry. I’m sure Clarance Thomas would disagree.
Sadly, there are people in the world who hate other people for no reason other than their skin or their religion. These people are everywhere. There are just as many bigoted liberals as bigoted conservatives. Instead of projecting bigotry onto people who are completely innocent of the charge, we should all be working to stamp it out where it really exists. Sometimes this means taking a hard look at people within our same political mindset.
I second EH’s post at 12:53
Rats! I have to go but I would like to say, soonerman, that much of what you support (with the exception of abortion) is also what conservatives support.
EH,
Yes, by today’s definitions, those movements in the past would encompass both liberal and conservative idealogues.
However, AT THAT TIME, were those movements considered liberal ideas or conservative ones?
Again, Heather said “liberalism is a mental disorder”. I responded.
Thank you for proving my point also.
I don’t know how anyone can still support abortion when they see baby Malachi. He was a 21 wk (I think) aborted baby. And now some of these babies are delivered at 21 weeks or so and are living, beating the odds!
In February of this year, quadruplets who were born really early (almost 4 months) celebrated their 1st birthday.
http://app1.unmc.edu/PublicAffairs/TodaySite/sitefiles/today_full.cfm?match=5405
Soonerman,
I apologize for doubting you and am sorry you experienced such prejudice. You weren’t addressing me – I’ll let it go.
Pro-Choicer:
If one truly and honestly studies the life of Christ and the result…..Christianity…..there will be no debate as to the veracity of their claims.
As I tried to state previously…..there were more than 500 people who witnessed Christ’s life, heard His claims, saw him heal, feed, forgive, witnessed His death and His resurrection. And then Paul, who previoulsy to his Damascu Road experience, was the most notorious Christian hater on the planet. Not to mention the billions of people over the millenia who have been transformed by Christ’s love for mankind, individually and collectively.
This in undebatable “proof” that would stand the evidenciary requirements of any court of law anywhere at any point in history. God is not mocked and there will be no loopholes at Judgment.
One cannot debate the facts of Christianity. The only things that can be debated is whether or not one wants to accept the overwhelming evidence.
My point is that no intellectually honest person can deny Christ’s claims of being God’s Son, of being the only way to God and that to reject Him is to reject the Father. God has made it very easy for anyone to understand. He simply asks us to believe and not call Him a liar. If you want to examine all the evidence it is there in black and white and also in the hearts and minds of people that truly follow Him.
Let me give you an example. Islam says that Christ was a prophet but not God. This is ludicrous. Jesus said he was the Son of God and therefore, equal to God. If Christ is not the Son of God He is no prophet. If He is the Son of God then He is more than a prophet, much more. Jesus cannot just be a prophet and claim to be the Son of God.
Soonerman, having gone thru those experiences… you still support Sanger’s Organization??
Lauren:
You’re absolutely right about that. Democrats use blacks to gain power.
Why else would a party support legalized abortion where 37% of it’s participants are black women when blacks only represent 8% of the population?
The deception being perpetrated by Democrats on blacks in truly disheartening. I wish black people would open their eyes and see.
If we Republicans hated blacks so much why would we want the killing to stop? After all, if abortion were not made legal in 1973, there would be 17 million more black people in the USA than there are now. They would be the largest minority. Now that would have been racial progress.
Soonerman:
I don’t have much time today to spend on the computer debating, but I need to respond one more time because you’re not getting my point.
“Liberalism” and “Conservatism” are late 20th century political words with late 20th century meanings. They were simply not used in this context in the past, and you can’t simply put them on top of past events to say “all good stuff comes from Liberals”.
By definition liberal as a word means pushing for change, and conservative as a political word means pushing for things to stay the same. By this definition things like suffrage and abolition were liberal. But so were things like prohibition and anti-immigrant movements that were championed by the exact same people (and in some cases, the exact same organizations) who were advocating for suffrage and abolition. By that same definition, modern pro-lifers, who are seeking recognition of personhood for the unborn, are also liberal.
So I don’t know exactly what Heather meant with the “Liberalism is a mental disorder” thing–I’m assuming something hyperbolic–but she was clearly referring to the modern political movement of Liberalism, not to anyone who ever sought to make a change throughout history (who would be called liberal). So, using historical movements to justify modern Liberalism while ignoring the fact that it is pro-lifers who are pushing the liberal side of change doesn’t work. And saying “all good things in history come from Liberals, so that means that all current Liberals have the right idea” doesn’t work either.
Take each issue on its merit. Do unborn human beings deserve recognition as people. I say yes. That makes me a liberal in opposition to Liberalism.
HisMan,
Heh. I have been really trying to avoid debating Christianity, because, well, those kinds of debates are not really my bag. My only point is that nothing should be considered so sacred that it is beyond question or humor, not even religion, not even Jesus.
And, call me intellectually dishonest, but I am not convinced by the alleged 500 eyewitnesses. We don’t have 500 eyewitness accounts, although I understand that Paul made a second hand claim that 500 eyewitnesses were present at the resurrection. He does not, however, claim that he interviewed them all, and I don’t believe we know what his sources are. The other problem is that this was not an era in history when people valued historical accuracy or the concept of proof. Heck, people were inclined to believe the things they experienced in dreams and visions.
And even if the resurrection were true, I don’t see how that establishes Christianity’s other claims (such as Jesus being the Son of God), nor does it establish God’s purpose in torturing Jesus and then bringing him back to life.
There are a lot of legitimate questions here. And while I am certainly well aware that there are many fervent believers in the world, the claims of Christianity are certainly objects of legitimate critique, questioning, and debate. And, while mockery and ridicule are not my favored approach, I do believe those can be legitimate tools to make a substantive point.
Aaargh, and yes, I am well aware HisMan that even though these debates are not my bag, you sucked me in! I wasn’t gonna respond, wasn’t gonna respond, wasn’t gonna respond, but you got me with the 500 eyewitnessed claim.
LMT @12:21PM
President Obama himself admitted that those in need can visit emergency rooms at no cost to them. We pay the fees through increased insurance premiums. No child should be dying in this country for lack of healthcare. Especially when ERs will treat them for FREE. (Again the ER thing is what Obama said in his speech yesterday)
ERs cannot refuse to assess and provide essential treatment to anyone of any age. Anyone without insurance can seek care at an ER, but I didn’t see anything in PBHO’s speech that says ER care is free. He talked about the expense of unpaid ER bills being spread around to all health care consumers in the form of higher insurance premiums and taxes and higher rates for service overall. But I didn’t see anything about it being free.
So, the party that you guys are usually part of, had congress and the Presidency for 8 years. Why is abortion still legal?
Because Republicans and ‘pro-lifers’ get abortions, too. Fact.
Pro-choicers:
It’s not just the 500 witness. It’s the witness of the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:14-16 (New International Version)
14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either.
Acts 1:8 (New International Version)
8But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”
Acts 26:15-18 (New International Version)
15″Then I asked, ‘Who are you, Lord?’
” ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,’ the Lord replied. 16’Now get up and stand on your feet. I have appeared to you to appoint you as a servant and as a witness of what you have seen of me and what I will show you. 17I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
John 1:14-16 (New International Version)
14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, “This was he of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’ ” 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another.
Romans 8:15-17 (New International Version)
15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
1 John 5:5-8 (New International Version)
5Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
6This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7For there are three that testify: 8the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
PCer,
I’m not trying to convert or get into a discussion on the merits of Christianity with you, but I’m curious: have you heard of/seen the shroud of Turin?
I’m just curious about your feelings on the shroud. It’s kinda cool, even if you only look at it as a historical artifact. I mean, personally, it is just a confirmation of what I already believed, but I get that not everyone comes from my perspective. I also just think it’s cool as a piece of history.
HisMan,
I like the Bible. I have read the whole thing (except the books that are only in the Catholic Bible). I just don’t think it is an infallible, self-proving document any more than the Koran or any other scripture.
Christianity is something that reasonable, people can honestly find unconvincing. Maybe we non-Christians are wrong. But I don’t think it means that we are dishonest people who are intentionally rejecting something we know to be true.
MaryRose,
I remember as a child my parents had a paperback book purporting to be a scientific investigation of the Shroud of Turin. I can picture the cover of the book quite clearly and I remember my mother explaining what the Shroud of Turin was. We talked about how neat it would be if it turned out to be real — but I haven’t followed the issue since back then at all.
“You see, us pro-death’ers, actually care about keeping FETUS’S alive once they get OUTSIDE of the womb.”
Not all “pro deathers”… if so, there would be no need for this blog. :(
So, my comments are being edited on this site? People are quoting Scriptures, But the number of daily abortions performed and the number lost since 1973 was deleted from my comment. I cannot believe on a pro life site that those numbers were deleted. So sorry that even here the secrets are being kept.
Maybe this speech was the first step in expanding access to doctors and other services. I couldn’t say that socialized health plans are the best (I don’t know enough about them), but at the very least we could be stepping in a positive direction for those who have been cut off from health insurance.
Poor children in the pictures. It’s so sad to see them and see that so few people care. :(
Soonerman said, “How many kids die, in THIS country, from lack of medical care? Are you sure you are pro-LIFE? Does your side have ANY plan to fix this? Or, is it “out of sight, out of mind”, as Heather said?”
Yes, as a matter of fact, there are many good plans out there to improve health care. Obama’s plan to take it over and ruin it is not one of the good ones.
One of many good plans out there is called “The Patients’ Choice Act” http://coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Files.View&FileStore_id=d4eab376-d507-4fb9-9f17-8b479a10affc
It’s call the patients choice act because it puts control and power in the patients hands, working with their doctors. Obama’s plan puts control into government bureaucrats hands. Obama believes in Big Government, while Republicans believe in “We the People”. Obama just can’t stand empowering regular Americans, only his elite little power group.
Soonerman makes several mistakes when he tries to absolve liberalism of the crime of killing babies. Soonerman makes the false claim that “liberalism has done and continues to do A LOT for this country and it’s citizens.”
On the contrary, liberalism has slowed down progress in this country, and we would be much further along as a society and a world without them.
Soonerman then comically says “My black arse (and my family) are not considered property thanks to mentally deranged liberals.
LOL, but actually it was conservative Christians who fought for the liberty and person hood of all Americans, just like we are fighting for the liberty and person hood of unborn black and white, male and female children today. The liberal supreme court ruled in “Dred Scot” that blacks were not human and not worthy of protection, just like the liberal supreme court ruled in “Roe v Wade” that small, growing children are not human and are not worthy of protection. The supreme court was wrong in both cases, we just have not fixed the second one yet.
Soonerman goes on to make several other unsupportable claims about that, LOL, somehow only liberals are responsible for allowing interracial marriage or worker safety. Poor old Soonerman has a warped view of history!
He then makes the absurd claim that “You bash a whole ideaology (sic) based on one issue…abortion. When in fact, if there were no abortion, MOST of you would be LIBERAL.”
LOL. Why would anyone give up common sense, morality, the U.S. Constitution, a knowledge of history, compassion for their fellow man just to joined a failed ideology like liberalism? Liberals fight for abortion, the killing of innocent unborn children, for the same reason they fight for bigger, more intrusive government to enslave more people and make them dependent on government.
Liberals subscribe to moral relativism. They believe there is no real right or wrong, so that’s why it’s OK to kill babies, flood the borders with illegal aliens, make more people dependent on government by higher taxes and more handouts, restrict freedom and free enterprise by taking over car companies, banks, the health care industry, and anything else they can get their greedy mitts into.
Then Soonerman hilariously tries to give Obama credit for being a “community organizer”, as if he somehow did it ”to provide shelter, food and overall better qaulity (sic) of life for the poor, elderly, sick and disabled.
LOL! We are all up to speed on Obama and his “ACORN” community organizing days, his Saul Alinksy Rules for Radical ways, his illegal, intimidating vote fraud ways.
I would rather turn to my church and other churches (except the anti-American, racist Rev. Wright church that Obama and his family sat in for 20 years) to provide shelter, food and a better quality of life for all.
Obama’s far left liberal “community organizing” group did nothing for anyone except power-hungry liberals.
Then Soonerman makes the typical liberal mistake of believing that one has to be a liberal to “believe in clean air and clean water.” Then, Soonerman tries to push the liberal canard that somehow, LOL, only liberals pushed for clean air and water! LOL, Soonerman, I have news for you, we all believe in clean air and water, we just don’t believe in anti-capitalist enviro-nuts ruining the economy and hurting people with some false premise about global warming, or punishing achievers and using the money to fund wacko leftist environmentalist wacko groups.
Then Soonerman brings up the issue of “torture”, which Bush, the troops, and America has never engaged in. Soonerman is too slow to realize that Obama has left himself the option of using waterboarding in rare cases, if needed, just as Bush used it. We had top Al Qaeda people in custody right after 9-11, they had knowledge of the next attack and doing “waterboarding”, something we do to our own soldiers in training that leaves no lasting harm, was done to the terrorists. They revealed the information and we saved thousands of American lives. Evidently Soonerman would let his family and his neighbors die rather than trick a terrorist into telling us where the next attack will hit. Thank God Soonerman is not in charge of our national defense, or we would all be dead.
Then Soonerman brings up the legitimate Iraq War, which was approved by a both houses of congress in an overwhelming bipartisan vote, after years and years of Saddam killing his own people with WMD, maintaining the capability to build more WMD and shooting at American airplanes, while harboring and funding anti-American terrorists around the world.
Soonerman, you seem to be saying “War is not the answer” … that depends on what the question is now doesn’t it? War ended slavery, fascism, The Taliban harboring al qaeda, ba’athism, Soviet totalitarianism, but other than that, it has a limited repertoire.
Apparently Soonerman’s answer is to have America take no action against barbaric despots who seek America’s destruction.
Then, just like a liberal, Soonerman focuses heavily on whether a crime perpetrator is black or white. Soonerman, when are you going to get beyond race and color like conservatives are? Stop focusing on skin color and start focusing on the content of one’s character.
Soonerman says we are “making fun” of liberals by saying “liberalism is a mental disorder”. But we consider any mental disorder a serious, sad and regretful thing. In the case of liberalism, the good news is there is a cure…you can take a logic class, read about history, learn morals or just apply common sense and you too can be a conservative, and be cured of your previous malady.
LMT, I didn’t see your comments but if you were respectful the delete was probably an accident.
Typically the only comments that are deleted are those made by banned members, those that are obscene, and those made by annonymous posters.
If yours didn’t fall into any of those catagories, it was probably swept up by mistake when a mod was doing a spam sweep.
Pro-choicer:
I don’t enjoy saying this but the Bible says that you stand condemned, not because you are a bad person but because you reject the only solution to your sin problem, Jesus Christ. In fact, compared to most of us, it appears that you are probably a more kind, very fair minded, very smart person. However, this holds no sway to God who demands utter perfection from each of us because He is perfect. Christ is the answer to that demand for perfection.
The definition of sin is missing the mark or missing the target. The target is perfection and holiness before God. We are all in the same boat.
If you acknowledge to yourself that you have sinned, i.e., lied, cheated, stolen, etc., or are just imperfect then you have a problem before a holy God as all of us do that requires a solution. If you reject the solution God offers there is no other and the consequence is separation from God. You are separated from Him now and will be for eternity unless you accept His Son as a ransom for your sin before you take your last breath. He does not want lose you, however, He will not force Himself on you….He is not the cosmic rapist.
I think once you understand who Christ is, who you are, who we all are in relation to God you would be better able to understand the dire reality of your situation.
I can understand why you are pro-choice because without an understanding of who God is there is nothing in your thinking that will modulate that view.
I can only present the truth of God’s Word and pray that someday you understand it.
Have you ever just asked God this question: “God, please reveal yourself to me”? You might want to try it. Miracles can happen.
Here’s a few scriptures that might help:
Romans 3:22-24 (New International Version)
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
1 John 1:9-10 (New International Version)
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
2 Corinthians 6:1-2 (New International Version)
1As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For he says,
“In the time of my favor I heard you,
and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.
LMT:
I would try posting again.
I think that was an accident.
My comments about the number of abortions, etc. have never been deleted or edited.
PCer,
You might look into it, just for the heck of it.
I dunno. It is certainly more interesting to me because of my faith, but I still think it’s worth looking into regardless, especially if you find the study of religion in general interesting.
Just a thought, I guess.
Also, why not the books in the Catholic bible? Just wondering. As a Catholic, I like to hear other people’s thoughts on the Church and Rome. ;)
HisMan,
As a Christian woman, it is my belief that your LIFE and how you live it is a testimony to your BELIEF.
In other words, if you are a good and moral person, who tries to do right, recognizes when they do wrong, and makes reparations when they can, you are not completely lost.
I also believe that the more you learn and the more God touches your life, the more responsible you are for your beliefs.
Of course, I’m a Catholic. According to my Christian mother-in-law and her husband, I’m condemned to Hell. So what could I possibly have to add? ~_^
LMT June 16, 2009 5:25 PM
But the number of daily abortions performed and the number lost since 1973 was deleted from my comment.
LMT, your comments at 12:21 are still visible.
3,700! That’s the average number of abortions (legal murders) performed DAILY in the United States. Also, we have lost 50,000,000 people since 1973 because of “choice.” We don’t have to be religious to see the gravity of this reality.
Was it another comment you made on this thread that disappeared? Or are you referring to my 4:19pm comment about your comment? I didn’t reference your numbers because they weren’t the specific part of your comment that I wanted to address. I wanted to make the point that ER care isn’t free unless something recent has changed that I’m not aware of.
Please accept my apology if I offended you by quoting a portion of your post instead of the entire post.
Mary Rose:
Nicodemus was a good and moral man.
Do you know what Jesus said to him?
In other words, if you are a good and moral person, who tries to do right, recognizes when they do wrong, and makes reparations when they can, you are not completely lost.
I also believe that the more you learn and the more God touches your life, the more responsible you are for your beliefs.
Of course, I’m a Catholic. According to my Christian mother-in-law and her husband, I’m condemned to Hell. So what could I possibly have to add? ~_^
Posted by: MaryRose at June 16, 2009 6:16 PM
—————————-
Mary Rose:
The Bible does not teach that we are saved by our behavior although I think someone who is saved will behave properly, not perfectly, but properly. I also think that someone who is not saved can behave properly. However, we can never be good enough to merit salvation, it is a free gift and not of ourselves.
As far as your in-laws go, they have no right to say you’re going to hell, especially if you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God which, if you are a Catholic, I am positive you do.
Show your in-laws these passages:
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God
1 John 4:15
If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God.
Conversely, the Bible teaches that whoever denies the Son has no life in them and we have a duty to express this to all non-believers.
Well, since I’m not black I’m sure my opinion is irrelevant (eyeroll)… but this is an excellent piece demonstrating the lies that the liberal movement and democrats have set forth about who really pushed equal rights (note: not democrats) and the end of slavery.
BTW, I’m out of the picture on either side as my Irish immigrant and Polish immigrant ancestors came here *after* the slavery issue was settled and were certainly victim to a large number of inequities due to their nationality of origin as well.
Wow, that would work better if I posted the link, huh? (Crap, the preggo brain is really killing me! LOL)
http://www.nmatv.com/video/134/Setting-The-Record-Straight:-Pt.-1
HisMan,
Jesus told Nicodemus that all the learning in the world wasn’t enough.
“No one has ascended into heaven except the one who descended from heaven, the Son of Man. And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.” -John 3:13-21
I believe that means he needed Christ’s sacrifice to get him to Heaven. Just like we all need Christ. I’m not denying that we need Christ. I’m saying it’s possible to receive that gift without ever believing on this realm, on this earth that Christ is the answer.
It is my belief that your life determines your belief. You can say you’re as repentant as you want, but unless you live with the intent not to sin, you’re not getting that forgiveness. Similarly, you can fail to accept Christ as your savior on this plane, but succeed in Christ’s dwelling place.
That’s my belief. Clearly, you disagree. I understand how you might. I can see where this might say to you that a person has to believe in words and announce their belief.
My interpretation? That Christ understands that belief comes in all shapes and sizes.
HisMan,
Yeah, I get it. I know that my belief is unusual within the Christian community.
I also believe that Christ is the only way to Heaven. I just believe it a little differently than you do ;)
As for my in-laws, I brought it up in a lighthearted manner. They have many good qualities, but an open mind about religion they lack. It’s unfortunate, but something I don’t feel the need to debate with them.
You bash a whole ideaology based on one issue…abortion. When in fact, if there were no abortion, MOST of you would be LIBERAL. It is only abortion that makes you conservative.
Posted by: Soonerman at June 16, 2009 12:24 PM
You obviously do not understand what conservatism is. People who are true conservatives believe in small government, low taxes, a strong military, and of course are pro life. Most conservatives also believe in traditional marriage.
I dont know how old you are but I am old enough to remember the Carter years and how a conservative candidate, won the hearts of millions and was elected in back to back landslide victories. Reagan made no bones about the fact he was conservative.
The liberal policies of Carter had failed miserably. Now we have a president with socialist policies. Socialism has failed every where it has been tried.
How many people really approve of the government controlling the banks, the auto industry, and soon, if the administration gets their wish, health care?
I actually think most people are conservatives and the lastest polls agree with this. In fact there would be even more who would identify as conservatives except they are “pro choice”.
Mary Rose:
The Book says what is says.
When we drift from what it says anything is possible to the extent where you have a person like Dr. Tiller being recognized as a Christian hero.
God warns us not to go beyond the boundaries established by His Word. Ths is literally playing with fire.
I do not pretned to be perfect, nor do I pretend to follow God’s word perfectly. However, I try to at least be open to His gentle correction and patient rebuke.
There are a lot of legitimate questions here. And while I am certainly well aware that there are many fervent believers in the world, the claims of Christianity are certainly objects of legitimate critique, questioning, and debate. And, while mockery and ridicule are not my favored approach, I do believe those can be legitimate tools to make a substantive point.
Posted by: Prochoicer at June 16, 2009 4:05 PM”
………………………………
There is little doubt that PC’er has indeed stumbled on a major ‘problem’. Christianity itself does not reject anything actual or true because Christ Himself defines what is valid, legitimate and true. HE IS TRUTH! — Truth is a WHO, not a WHAT.
We Christians become dedicated to this by His efforts – to make us one IN Him. This is a ‘strange’ little word to describe a relationship.. It may help to picture a flame on a candle: an aspect of the flame is ‘light’. So when Jesus is described as ‘the light of the world’ it is a profound statement.
What happens then most folks (not even Christians) understand fully. The ‘oneness’ continues to swallow our faults, we become … we BECOME FLAME … WE BECOME God’s children … He is our Abba(Daddy).
ALL relationships are then geared towards this … that which we ARE. When HisMan writes of this, he is precisely correct. We all have much yet to learn about how stunning all this is. HisMan’s warnings {quoting scripture) are very minimal, when you consider what is at stake!
Over and over, we are told that God delights in His Creation ( we are created ‘very good’ Genisis). It then is almost beyond concept when we are invited to BECOME ONE IN HIM.
totally fine with them being consigned to a life of constant unwanted pregnancy (or the impractical alternative of lifelong celibacy).
Because being pregnant or celibate are SO much worse than being hacked to pieces.
Soonerman, you are so right. Pro-lifers are the most evil people in all history. Perhaps you can explain now how that justifies abortion…
Also, Soonerman is so callous that he is not disturbed by gruesome pictures of hacked to death foetuses, as *normal* people would be.
So, Soonerman,
1. Why would this *not* work for some other people?
2. How does this justify the killing of foetuses?
Along the lines that Christianity is an “idea” and that ideas have consequences, I’m just wondering how many innocent people I would harm if I lived totally according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Anyone?
Thanks for your thoughtful look into my comments. You are truly awesome. I think that somehow the comments were separated. So sorry to go off like I did.
God bless!
So, Hisman, when Christ says “Take this and eat it, it is my body”… how do you interpret that?
Mary Rose:
Let’s not get into a debate about the Eucharist in front of non-believers. This would not be profitable or a good example.
I understand the dilemma. I am open to learning more.
I simply want to do what the Lord wants me to do. It’s that simple and I certainly don’t know everything.
E-mail me and we’ll talk about it.
HisMan,
I’m not sure how to contact you.
:(
I clicked on your name but… I dunno… my computer skills are limited :(
Ha! I found an email addy that is sure to be yours! :)
I was protesting with the League at this one, and I can say that the “crazies” as I call them, those screaming and yelling goofballs (probably communists) standing near and among us were the most hateful group I have ever seen. I walked past them a few times and they yelled and screamed at me through loud megaphones. I didn’t pay any attention to them, but I could feel their vitriol and hatred. May God forgive them. They remind me of the angry crowd at Jesus’ trial and His Crucifixion.