New Stanek WND.com column, “Sex and consequences: Link between pro-gay and pro-abortion agendas”
Homosexual and AIDS activists heckled President Obama during a Democrat fundraiser in New York on Sept. 22, complaining about the military’s “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” policy and inadequate AIDS funding.
Obama responded that his administration had increased AIDS funding and offensively added, “The people [who] will potentially take over if we don’t focus on the election, I promise you, will cut AIDS funding,” as if that really would happen, as if Republicans really want those afflicted with AIDS to die. Obama’s comment was no different than one made by boorish Democrat Rep. Alan Grayson, who accused Republicans opposing Obamacare of wanting sick people to “die quickly.”
Here’s video of the heckling and remark…
In fact, worldwide AIDS funding increased dramatically under President Bush…. And Obama flatlined that funding.
But I digress. The point is that we know the most prevalent cause of AIDS in the U.S. is men having sex with men. The Centers for Disease Control has just released tragic new statistics…
The fact is, men having sex with men is bad for their health. The prevalence of AIDS is just one indicator.
Likewise, promiscuous heterosexual sex is bad for one’s health, leading to a prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases – some incurable, like herpes; some incurable and deadly, like AIDS – unwanted pregnancies and infertility, to name just three physical consequences.
But where are the health warnings?…
Continue reading my column today, “Sex and consequences: Link between pro-gay and pro-abortion agendas,” at WorldNetDaily.com.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Like any of these hecklers will ever join the army
Doesn’t this column just play into the argument made by pro-choicers that opposition to abortion is not about saving lives but about punishing sex?
Again, gay rights are NOT linked to the pro-abortion community. There is some overlap, but they are not related. I sincerely hope and wish and even PRAY that the pro-life community stops equating the two. It’s ridiculous and it’s wrong.
I’ve always noticed that when you go to an abortion mill or a pro-abortion rally, half the pro-abort women are lesbians [edited by moderator]. I guess the are so evil that they just identify with another evil cause – killing kids.
Did you just imply that lesbians are EVIL? Lesbians aren’t evil. Gay people aren’t evil. What will it take for the pro-life community to wise up?
There are a lot of pro-life gays and lesbians. We should embrace them and let them speak. The pro-abortion gays and lesbians are just misinformed.
MaryLee, for obvious reasons abortion is a ‘choice’ that gay partners will never have to reconcile with one another. So in that way the two are not linked. But the abortion industry and the gay rights goups are linked in their sex with no consequences agenda. Abortion rails against the sanctity of the man/woman procreative bond and homosexuality also rails against the sanctity of the man/woman bond. So in this way they are alike. And both homosexuality and abortion, left unopposed, diminish the sanctity of the man/woman union.
And from a non-secular standpoint; a consequence of both would is to trivialize the need to follow Gods plan for the family.
Frankly, none of my gay friends believe in “sex without consequences,” and all of them are in monogamous relationships. Why this inaccurate generalization of an entire community? We don’t like it when pro-aborts call us ‘terrorists’ and say things that are entirely wrong….Why can’t the pro-life community learn not to do this? THEY ARE NOT RELATED.
Well it’s interesting from a morality/evil viewpoint that lesbians have the lowest AIDs risk. So I don’t see the equivilance. Abortion is wrong because it kills another innocent life. There is no link to homosexuality except that pro choice/pro gay tend to line up on one side of the political aisle and anti-gay/pro-life tend to line up on the other.
Team MaryLee. This topic is a divisive waste of time that relies on generalizations and untruths to cast GLBT people as something many of us are not. Less gay debate, more baby-saving, please.
John and MaryLee, neither of you addressed my point that they are alike in that they both go against the sanctity of the man/woman bond. The gay ‘marriage’ agenda can do great harm to the man/woman union and so does abortion.
I am off to work, I’ll check back for your replies later. ts
As a (chaste) Gay woman, a concern I have over abortion is that if the day comes when genetic markers for Gay tendencies are discovered, people like me will vanish from the face of the Earth as parents of potentially Gay kids are pressured into aborting, as parents of Down Syndrome kids are pressured now.
90% of detected Down Syndrome kids are aborted. What happens to Gay rights when 90% of future Gay people die in the womb?
Truthseeker, I don’t believe in the “sanctity of the man/woman bond.” Because the Bible says so? The Bible says a lot of things. It says not to eat pork. It tells you how to sell your daughter as a slave. We have to learn to separate the CULTURAL aspects from the universal truths…..Love, redemption, hope, grace, goodness…..We have only recently begun to understand the gay community. If I were told there was something inherently evil and terrible about me, I’d be as angry as they are. I’m angry FOR them. I don’t know one gay person who is as you describe them. My closest gay friends are religious, are generous, are brilliant, kind, decent, hardworking, and I love them very much.
I think the pro-life community needs to focus on saving unborn children, and not demanding that the rest of the world live socially and religiously identical to them. You cannot tell people “don’t abort your babies” and then tell them they have to be exactly like you. I’m pro-birth control. I’m pro gay-marriage. Abortion is a disgrace. Homosexuality is not the same as abortion; and it isn’t a disgrace. Even if you believe it is, it is STILL not related to abortion. It will never be related.
Abortion is a crime. It cannot be justified. It is cruel, it is horrible, and it is inexcusable.
Homosexuality is not a choice. It is not cruel, it doesn’t destroy a helpless child. Stop judging the gay community and start opening your minds. Those of us who are heterosexual don’t understand what it’s like to be gay; that is no excuse to hate and judge them and make gross generalizations and posture and preen as if being heterosexual makes one less “evil.” Anyone who willfully kills their own child, anyone who condones and/or celebrates that killing cannot be compared to someone who happens to be gay. Enough already.
I say ditto to everything MaryLee said except I am for Civil Unions and not gay marriage.
Excellent column, Jill! The pro-aborts and homosexual activists are indeed partners in sin; that’s why they so often support each other and ridicule pro-life/pro-family activists.
Abortion is a grave evil, but so is the homosexualist agenda. (To clarify, I’m not referring to those who suffer from same-sex attraction and strive to live chaste lives; rather, I’m referring to those who condone homosexual activity, homosexual “marriage” and homosexual adoption.)
Yeah, decent, monogamous homosexual people are so evil.
::EYE ROLL::
Chaste lives? So, if you’re gay, you have to accept that you can’t be with someone you love? Being gay isn’t a disease. It’s not like having DIABETES. These are PEOPLE. They are not “the others.” There is no “others.” There is only “us.” We have to understand and love these people and not put them in a corner, shaming them with holier-than-thou attitudes. My neighbors are a lesbian couple that I adore. They are pro-life lesbians, they are so wonderful, and so helpful, and my family loves them. I trust them with my daughter. They are nurturing, funny, wise, and they are like family. They are, in fact, much better people than those who purport to be Christian and then spout phrases like, “homosexual agenda” and “homosexuals are evil.” Please learn to separate the two. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t mean that it’s wrong. Abortion will never be right, because it is the murder of a child. Homosexuality is just a fact of life. I don’t know any gay people who have an “agenda.” Unless their agenda is to, I don’t know, not to be viewed as second-class citizens.
The religious pro-life community dehumanizes and belittles the gay community the same way the pro-aborts dehumanize and belittle unborn children. I am amazed that people in the religious pro-life community–who are otherwise very intelligent–are so blinded by this prejudice.
MaryLee, it’s a pleasure to read your heartfelt words. Such a refreshing break from the usual tripe served up concerning gay people and their lives.
Thank you Hal. I appreciate it. I’m saddened that this kind of prejudice turns people away from the pro-life cause.
Sodomy is not love.
“Being gay isn’t a disease,” you say. Well, engaging in sodomy often spreads disease, as Jill’s (excellent) column points out.
Marylee, look I have gay friends too. Not a huge bunch but I have a few. They are sexually promiscuous. My one gay friend terrifies me because he goes to clubs and hooks up with random men nightly. I am so afraid he will get HIV and die. So maybe your friends don’t but my friends do. Anyhow, even though I do not support homosexuality as I think it is a perversion of what God created I do love my gay friends as the wonderful people they are and they know I don’t agree with homosexuality but that I love them as my friends. And our relationship is just fine. I do welcome gay people to the pro-life cause because I feel like once we have eradicated abortion THEN we can quibble over homosexuality. You’ll never find me endorsing the homosexual lifestyles or marching in a gay pride parade but that doesn’t mean I can’t stand side by side with them on the sidewalk of an abortion mill trying to save lives.
Don’t shoot the messenger folks. READ the CDC article and Jill’s article. Hating the message and the messenger will not make what you want to believe true. Sorry. It is not about hate, not about homophobia, not about bigotry, not about civil rights, not about discrimination it is about MEDICAL FACTS. For those who say all the gays they know are in stable committed, mutually, monogamous relationships, I hope for their health sake that is true but that is an abberation of the documented researched of the typical number of partners that MSM have (and even WSW) compared to heterosexuals. There is no such thing as “safe sex” , sex will never be safe. The CDC article gave 3 Essential Ways to Reduce Your Risk:
1. Don’t have sex (anal, vaginal or oral)
2. Only have sex if in a mutually monogamous relationship with a partner you know is not infected (the research on this point says that this is an aberration with gay couples who consider themselves even in “committed relationships” having sex outside of their relationship) I will post the article link about this if you want later.
3 Use a condom everytime you have anal, vaginal or oral sex (did you know that the longer someone is in a sexual relationship the less likely they are to use condoms-typically after 3 months in the relationship people consider themselves “committed”).
Yes, these rules apply to heterosexuals as well but for homosexuals physiologically, biologically, anatomically, immunologically and medically the risks are much greater. otherwise the FDA rule for not accepting blood donations from MSM even if they are in a “committed relationship”, even if they use condoms or if they have ever had sex with another man because their risk is so much greater than any other population group. I have the link for the FDA article if you want it as well.
God loves GLBT. I love GLBT Jeremiah 29:11 “I know the plans I have for you says God, plans never for your destruction, plans to prosper you to give you a future and a hope”. He wants to protect us, never to harm us and destroy us. He only gives a boundary to bless and benefit us. You cannot have a future, if you are dead. Did you know the average life expectancy of gay men is at least 20 years shorter than heterosexual men.
As Jill states out in her WorldNet Daily article “We get warnings about the consequences of every other destructive behavior. Smoking cigarettes leads to cancer. driving drunk makes mothers MADD, texting while driving kills friends, drugs damage brain cells; failure to wear motorcycle helmets splatters brain cells; not paying taxes sends the IRS; sugar is bad’ fat is bad….”
Just like unborn aborted babies cannot have a future if the are DOA (Dead On Arrival). I know that there are those who do hate but I don’t nor does Jill, warning someone of dangerous behavior because you want to save them is NOT hate.
Got to go. Will check back later.
Prolifer L, hope you don’t think I was disagreeing or attacking you or Jill. I absolutely agree. I just want all those people who think that since I view homosexuality as a perversion that I hate gay people to know that is not true at all.
The Courage Apostolate is excellent for those who suffer from same-sex attraction.
I agree, Sydney 2010/09/29 at 2:46 pm. That is my beliefe as well.
If homosexuality is as you say this perversion and condemned by God, then why do lesbians have such a LOW level of transfer of HIV? Does God say male homosexuality is bad but female homosexuality is good? I don’t think you can point to disease as some sort God’s punishment any more than you can point to natural disasters as God’s punishment.
No Sydney I don’t think you are disagreeing with me or Jill. I do NOT hate anyone. I need God’s forgiveness and mercy myself. I do not want anyone to be written off by the pro-life movement. I am pleading with people to save lives, lives of those born and unborn. God bless you Jill for speaking the truth in love. I know this is always a controversial issue and you take a lot of heat when you bring it up.
Actually the risk of STDs by WSW is higher than for heterosexual women John. You need to read The Health Risk of Gay Sex” by Dr. John Diggs an about 30 page research paper with about 10 pages of documented research to understand why anatomically, physiologically and immunologically the health risk are more for men.
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/homosexuality/healthrisksSSA.pdf
for FDA blood donor restrictions
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm
“Some people wonder why I sometimes post on the topic of homosexuality on my pro-life blog. It’s because the abortion and homosexual movement are flip sides of the same coin. Both want illicit sex without consequences. Both want to stop social conservatives from educating about the consequences. And both want taxpayers to pay for the inevitable consequences when they develop.”
I loved this quote from the article because this silencing of the truth of the dangers of illicit sex is the bond betweeen abortion and homosexuality.
Loving our neighbors with same-sex attraction does not mean condoning sinful behavior.
I hate to always jump in on arguments- I’m always very afraid of them, like a coward. But this has to stop. Because I feel like Marauder and MaryLee are the voices of reason (I haven’t read all of the comments yet however) here. Again, sorry if I skip over you- I have only read the first seven or eight comments and could no longer bite my tongue. To simply ignore such injustice is just as wrong as spouting unjust remarks.
There is a fundamental disconnect here: ABORTION IS NOT ABOUT THE BOND BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN BEING BROKEN BY THE EVIL LIBERAL SOCIETY. THIS IS NOT GREAT MORAL DECAY 2010. Okay? This is what abortion is: every woman who has ever been slut-shamed into thinking that because she is not well-educated and married living in the ‘burbs, she will be a terrible mother. This is about racism- the fact that non-white individuals live in higher rates of poverty. This is about the fact that women, my sisters, around the world have no access to doctors, preventative measures, are raped, have too many children to support as is, are subject to abuse by their husbands or boyfriends. This is about the fact that women face a lot of bigotry that they should not have to face. The truth is that this is what pro-life needs to do:
Stop using the Bible and its quotes as proof of pro-life superiority. I think that Christianity is a beautiful religion. But we cannot argue religion. It just will lead to many fights about Church and State. There are plenty of reasons to be pro-life without using religion- I support your spirituality, but you cannot use it to determine public policy.
Rethink our definition of pro-life. Often, pro-choice individuals advocate for many issues. We need to do the same. Whether you want to admit it or not, we must be for ALL children. We must advocate for better education, laws protecting children (I have read that to murder an infant will get you less time than to murder an adult- if this is true, let’s change that as a movement), anti-child labor movements, anti-child slavery movements, better vaccinations, world hunger. All things to help children will reduce abortion. Women around the world will feel less of a need to have abortions if their children aren’t going to be doomed to horrible lives.
Treat ABORTION as the issue, not legal abortion, but abortion. We must be against abortion- we must no longer try and pretend that illegal abortions are not dangerous- discuss the reality of it (whether that is as dangerous as pro-choicers say or not is not the issue) and make it a point to acknowledge the fact that it kills women is why we should hate it. If you read in the news of a woman who dies in Africa of illegal abortion and think, “I’m going stick my head in the sand and pretend that this doesn’t happen or deny that it happens,” instead of “This is why I hate abortion. This woman has lost her life. I must do something to keep it from happening again,” then there is a problem with you. Seriously consider this.
Stop blaming the GLBT community. Unrelated issues. Thank you for standing up MaryLee and Marauder. I’m not lesbian or bisexual or transgender myself, but I know that your comments DO matter.
Stop getting upset about people who aren’t married sleeping together. By all means, warn children about the realities of promiscuity (let’s be frank- it is dangerous), and share your stories, but a boyfriend and a girlfriend sleeping together using protection is not your business. It is only your personal spiritual morality- and you can give advice and information, but avoid the stigma. It only makes non-married women feel more like having abortions if they get pregnant.
Join forces with other social justice movements. History proves that movements work better with allies. We can make this world a better place- Darfur, the Congo, anti-poverty groups, religious tolerance, rights of women. Education. Something. Get involved and every act will make this world a better place.
Work on making the world a better place for women. I don’t think that this is too difficult to comprehend. We all know this to be true.
Recognize that pro-choice individuals are not motivated (the vast majority of the time) by hatred of children or families or Christianity. This is possible, but not common. They believe in the good of their cause and various other things. So please acknowledge this. It will make us much more moderate, it will be much better. Trust me.
Please, drop the GLBT complaints. Abortion is not their fault. Abortion is not the result of Great Moral Decay 2010. It goes much deeper.
As they say, you are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. Lesbians have a LOW riks for HIV infection.
http://www.avert.org/lesbians-safe-sex.htm
Since the argument being put forth is that gay sex is being punished by HIV, how do you explain that?
But again I think it’s wrong to cast any disease as some curse from God. That’s what they did in the Middle Ages….
Sorry, Vannah, no can do. Your arguments are typical of the pro-abortion/pro-sodomy crowd. Nice try, though.
Since the argument being put forth is that gay sex is being punished by HIV, how do you explain that?
John, that’s not what Jill is arguing. You’re beating down a straw man. Read her column.
Matt, it is this kind of attitude—pride—that will keep the pro-life movement from changing hearts.
You simply cannot demand that everyone be pro-life AND CHRISTIAN as you are. You cannot demand that women not have abortions and also DO AS YOU SAY. The worst sin of all is pride. It is, as C.S. Lewis pointed out, the most diabolical sin of all, the most corruptive. And that is what these homophobic, religiously zealous comments are full of. Pride. We need to focus on abortion, and why women seek abortions in the first place. This puritanical attitude is going to keep the pro-life movement from really gaining all the higher ground it needs. Yes, there will always be pro-life people; there may be even more pro-lifers out there, of all races and creeds and orientations, who would gladly fight this war with you if you take off the blinders and stop with the judging. You cannot demand that people behave exactly as you believe they should. The focus should be to stop the killing of the babies.
As I’ve said, the way religious pro-lifers talk about the gay community is suspiciously similar to the way pro-aborts talk about unborn babies. “They don’t function like you or I do, and therefore they are less than a person, deserving less rights.” Just as the unborn are not the enemy, neither is the gay community. They are not the enemy. They are not going to be our downfall. They are not sub-human. They are in no more need of redemption than you are I. We are ALL in need of redemption. All of us.
Stop with the judging, you say? Isn’t that what you’re doing with me?
And that is what these homophobic, religiously zealous comments are full of. Pride.
With “friends” like you, the pro-life/pro-family movement doesn’t need enemies.
Don’t be ridiculous, Matt.
MaryLee IS an ally to every woman and child who wishes for a better life. And I’m not pro-choice (which is the proper word, most aren’t pro-abortion, though some do prefer the term- most don’t). I consider myself pro-life or something very moderate. MaryLee isn’t judging. Don’t play victim. You’re not suffering from her telling you to open your mind a little. The only ones who suffer are the ones you cut with your words- GLBT men and women, who are faced with this sort of bigotry every day. And women and children, born or not, who do not benefit from you swearing that the problems of the world are because people disagree with you.
What does “no can do,” even mean? You can’t care about children in sweat shops, in slavery, and women who face severe sexism every day? Or you can’t love? Or you can’t possibly walk a mile in someone else’s shoes? What do you mean by “no can do?”
I’m not being ridiculous, nor am I playing the victim. I’m speaking the truth, albeit a truth you don’t want to hear.
Now, what is ridiculous is your assertion that there’s a distinction between “pro-choice” and pro-abortion. There is no distinction. If you’re “pro-choice,” you’re pro-abortion.
John, Vannah, Mary Lee, Maurader,
Would you have anal sex? if not, why not?
Thanks.
Jill’s been reading too many of the comments posted on her blog.
Matt, I am not your enemy, and I am not angry with you. (I agree, there is no such thing as “pro-choice”….”choice” is a euphemism for abortion, and the “choice” argument is loaded with faulty, self-serving rhetoric.)
To be sure, my comments sound like judgments, but they are merely observations. I am just very saddened and disappointed that religious pro-lifers refuse to separate two different issues. I’m on your side. Telling me “with friends like you who needs enemies” isn’t going to make me back down. I will fight for the unborn until I’m dead and buried in the ground. If I am shunned by you, then that is a pity; I am certain God is more saddened by the death of innocent children than he is by any monogamous homosexual relationship. I’m not trying to fight you; I’m trying to fight for the unborn WITH you.
Jasper, I don’t think your question is appropriate for this forum.
“Jasper, I don’t think your question is appropriate for this forum.”
Why not? It’s germaine to the topic at hand. Would you have anal sex? if not, why not?
Jasper, maybe you have this forum confused with Jezebel, or Plentyoffish.com. I’m sure there are commenters and members there who would be happy to answer your question.
Jasper,
I don’t wish to discuss that. I find it inappropriate to ask people such a thing (on the Internet, too…) but what someone prefers in private is none of my business unless it violates the rights of others. Since being attracted to the same gender is not a violation of your rights or mine or Jose’s or Ana’s or anyone else’s, it’s none of your concern.
Matt,
What truth? What exactly are you saying that I don’t want to hear? I respect whatever you believe spiritually- I’m a spiritual person myself (well, am trying to be)- but you must understand that not everyone believes the same as you do.
Mary Lee, Vannah?
You accused pro-lifers of ‘hating and judging’ gay people. This is not the case at all, we do not hate gay people.
Why can’t you answer a simple question that goes to the heart of this whole discussion?
Explain to me why you wouldn’t engage in the type of sex gay men have? You’re not bigoted are you? Are you homophobic?
Jasper, it’s not a moral question, it’s an explicit and inappropriate question. I am not six years old. I know what a homosexual relationship is. I am not gay, but I do not care if anyone else is. What you call “sodomy” is not contained within the gay community; there are plenty of heterosexual people who like the same exact things gay people like. There are straight people who are promiscuous and spread STDs. There are gay people who are celibate. I don’t understand what your point is. Judging someone based on their sexual preference is the same as judging them based on their religion, or the color of their skin.
And I didn’t accuse “pro-lifers” of entertaining this prejudice. I accused RELIGIOUS pro-lifers of entertaining this prejudice. There are a lot of pro-lifers out there who do not subscribe to the same religious or social beliefs as you do.
“Jasper, it’s not a moral question, it’s an explicit and inappropriate question.”
Yes, it is a moral question and it is explicit, but not inappropriate for this discussion. Do you care about gay men Mary Lee? 50% (500,000 gay men in th US have HIV). Why are you condoning risky behavoir (anal sex) among gay men? It’s causing many of them to die.
who is the real homophobe here?
“Judging someone based on their sexual preference is the same as judging them based on their religion, or the color of their skin.”
I’m not judging someone based on their sexual preference. Why do you want gay men to get HIV?
“but what someone prefers in private is none of my business unless it violates the rights of others.”
If a bunch of gay men were commiting suicide, you would not care? Would you say it’s ‘none of my business’? That sounds bigoted and ignorant to me.
There is no way that fity percent of gay men are HIV positive. Yeah right.
No one wants gay men to have HIV. And as for the question about “sodomy,” this is largely the equivalent of saying, “I’m more of a cat person and in my religion cat people are on the right track. Dog people are sinners. And I bet that they get injured by their dogs on a daily basis. Fifty percent of dogs attack and devour their owners. So, would you want a dog?”
This feigning concern for the GLBT community is not an original thing- it’s like when people have paternalistic attitudes toward women.
If it is what both individuals consent to do, then that is their business. And I shall leave it at that.
I would care if a bunch of gay men were committing suicide. What’s your point?
Expressing love with proper consent =/= suicide. I would always encourage safety, of course. Regardless of whether you are heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual.
I love you MaryLee, Marauder, Vannah and even the pro-choicers. I know this topic always brings up so much controversy. Because I want to help people I must tell you the truth in love. I do not want anyone to contract HIV or any other disease for that matter. I do not believe God “sent” HIV to punish gays. The disease is a byproduct of unhealthy sexual behaviors NOT because God hates and wants to punish gays. He allows us the freewill to choose the behaviors we pursue like Jill’s article says it is a consequence like smoking, DUI, drugs, obesity, etc. You are so off-base here as Jill relates in her article telling someone NOT to smoke because they will get cancer is NOT being a bigoted, close-minded smokophobe it is being truthful and loving that person. Telling someone not to practice homosexual behaviors because of the physical, mental, or emotional risks does NOT make me a bigoted, hateful, homophobe. God help us.
BTW John I spoke specifically regarding WSW being at more risk for STDs in general than heterosexual women, if you were to read Dr. John Diggs article he discusses the differences and why the physiologic, anatomic and immunologic differences and the sexual practices of MSM make them more likely to contract HIV.
I do have another article that addresses WSW risk for HIV specifically, it does vary depending on what behaviors a WSW engages in as what their HIV risk is. Very interesting study of lesbian and bisexual women in San Francisco found that 81% reported sex with men in the past 3 years. Of those women 39% reported unprotected vaginal sex, and 11% unprotected anal sex. In a survey of lebians and bisexual women in 16 small US cities, among women currently sexually active with a male partner, 39% reported sex with a gay/bisexual man and 20% reported sex with an IDU (injection drug user) do you understand that translates to 59% involved in risky sexual behaviors.
http://www.caps.ucsf.edu/pubs/FS/wsw.php
it is by the Center for AIDS Prevention Studies
Sorry I had an error on the original link to the WSW study it should be correct now.
“There is no way that fity percent of gay men are HIV positive. Yeah right.”
I meant 50% of HIV cases are Gay men.
“No one wants gay men to have HIV. ”
they why do you condone them in engaging in risky behavoir? Is it because political correctness rules your thinking?
“I would care if a bunch of gay men were committing suicide. What’s your point?’
wait a minute, you just said if it does’t effect other people, it’s ok for them to do anything they want.
..
Then why do you want them engaging life threathening sexual behavoir (anal sex)? 50% of HIV cases are of gay men, read Jill’s article.
The moment we are born, we begin to die. To equate homosexual activity with smoking is a shallow argument. As smoking is surely likely to cause cancer, HIV is spread through various other ways besides sex. My gay friends are monogamous, as I’ve said. My gay men friends are in monogamous relationships, and are not promiscuous. I had a good friend who contracted HIV; he was gay….But I also knew a straight couple who had also contracted the disease. Obviously, living as if there are no consequences will lead to very bad outcomes. If you jaywalk without ever checking the traffic, then you’re likely to be hit by a car. Anyone who is promiscuous is likely to contract a myriad of diseases. But the entire gay community cannot be categorized as promiscuous. The heterosexual is just as promiscuous as the gay community.
I do not support promiscuity; but I also don’t think celibacy is always the answer, either. I believe in self-control, responsibility and accountability…That is one reason why abortion is so heinous to me. It kills a little beautiful person who never had any say in the matter. It is irresponsible, violent, bloody, unnecessary, and completely unjustifiable.
As Denis Leary said, “Everything gives you cancer.” Chocolate helps in supplying triptophan which helps produce serotonin…..But eating too much chocolate is bad for your system and your weight. Eating eggs gives you protein but also plays games with your cholesterol. Skiing is a wonderful activity for many, yet many die in skiing accidents every year. At the same time, I’ve known people who lived very healthy lives and then died from cancer. Any sexual activity puts one at risk for sexually transmitted diseases. But I still don’t understand how this is connected to abortion. It really isn’t connected at all. It’s quite a stretch.
I will be spending the rest of my evening reading, but before I go, I shall outline my beliefs, so you can stop asking very confusing questions that, if I might say, make absolutely no sense.
Here is the deal:
All people are equal. This is regardless of ethnicitiy, nationality, gender, orientation, native tongue, status of birth, socio-economic status, religion, or just about anything you can think of to divide people. Gay men, lesbian women, bisexual men, bisexual women, transgendered men, and transgendered women are no exceptions. We are all equals.
They love the same as the rest of us. Sometimes they fall in love with the right person, sometimes they fall in love with the wrong person. They have friends. First dates. Get their hearts broken. Gain experience and either learn from it or, well, don’t. No different from heterosexual men or women. Everyone who experiences all that life has to offer will either gain wisdom from it or not, and this happens even if you are attracted to the same gender or feel a different gender from what you are biologically. Get over it.
I would not, or even could not, change your opinions on gay rights. This is your opinion. Have your opinion your way. Just educate yourself and understand the opposite point of view and I can assure you, you don’t right now. Gay rights are not about elicit sex for all. I don’t care to repeat what I just said in the previous paragraph over again, so if you need to know why we believe in equality for all, read it again. And for sure recognize that your opinion is not everyone else’s opinion. Two gay men living together is none of your business. So stay out of their business.
All people need to be safe when in a sexual relationship. I strongly encourage this. You say that I don’t care, but I care and don’t appreciate your fake concern for the GLBT community. Sex can be dangerous for anyone. It’s not like it’s safer for straight people. Your comments about “suicide” are totally off base. They aren’t committing suicide. And saying that gay men make up a signifficant portion of individuals living with HIV/AIDS like that’s proof of their evil nature begs the question: Do you think the same of African Americans and Africans? They have a higher rate of HIV/AIDS than Anglos. Are they evil, too? Do they need to be treated in such a parental manner? Of course not. Just extend a hand to assist where you can. Love as you love your friends, and know that love is not mock concern. You wouldn’t treat any straight person like this.
Don’t accuse me of not caring because I won’t treat GLBT individuals differently. That’s a very weak attempt and you know it. Don’t pretend to not understand what I’m talking about. Just listen and you’ll understand.
I am certain God is more saddened by the death of innocent children than he is by any monogamous homosexual relationship.
By what standard of truth do you make this judgment?
The God of the Bible (both OT and NT) deems homosexual behavior an abomination. Not only a sin, but also an abomination.
Homosexual behavior strikes at the very heart of His plan for the men and women He created. Homosexual behavior is an aberration in His sight.
This doesn’t mean that those who engage in that behavior cannot be forgiven; this does not mean they cannot be healed, delivered, and restored to the people He meant for them to be.
Christ Jesus came to earth from Heaven for the express purpose of reconciling sinful man to the Father who loves them. He died on the cross to make this possible. It is His will that all repent of sin and become heirs of eternal life.
ITA with the poster who made the observation that pro-GLBT and pro-abortion supporters seek to minimize consequences of risky sexual behavior.
All people need to be safe when in a sexual relationship. I strongly encourage this.
Really? I need to be safe with my wife who I’ve been married to for 16 years?
MaryLee September 29th, 2010 at 11:15 am Truthseeker, I don’t believe in the “sanctity of the man/woman bond.”
MaryLee, Wether you ‘believe’ in it or not it is real and it is plain to see. You are pro-life right? Then you do ‘believe’ in the sanctity of life. And if you believe in the sanctity of life then why do you feel compelled to deny the sanctity of the union between a man and a woman that brings said life into this world?
nissa ami kato,
If you don’t mind me asking, why do you choose to live a chaste life?
MaryLee said:
These are PEOPLE. They are not “the others.” There is no “others.” There is only “us.”
MaryLee, That part I agree with, we are all God’s children.
“I would not, or even could not, change your opinions on gay rights. This is your opinion. Have your opinion your way. Just educate yourself and understand the opposite point of view and I can assure you, you don’t right now. Gay rights are not about elicit sex for all. I don’t care to repeat what I just said in the previous paragraph over again, so if you need to know why we believe in equality for all, read it again. And for sure recognize that your opinion is not everyone else’s opinion. Two gay men living together is none of your business. So stay out of their business.”
Claire, Put the word ‘abortion’ where the following words/phrases appear: gay right, gay rights, Two gay men living together.
This is part of the same argument we’ve heard about abortion.
Praxades,
Your post should be addressed to Vannah, not Claire.
Truthseeker, it isn’t that I don’t have respect for the man/woman bond. I am happily married and I have a daughter. But the sanctity of life—the right to live, period, regardless of age, size, function, “usefulness,” etc., is not the same as what you call the “sanctity” of the man/woman bond. Love comes in all different forms. Life is life. Whether someone is gay, straight, black or, white, they deserve the right to live, and the right to love. The right to live is the most fundamental of all rights. But saying that “true love” can only be contained in a male/female relationship is a totally different issue. Again, you are relying on the Bible as your primary argument. The Bible puts life above all. And a few issues (homosexuality, slavery, concubines) can be put into historical and cultural context. I am not saying “Do whatever makes you feel good.” I believe in self-control and accountability, as I’ve said. But love is love. My gay friends did not choose to be gay, and they didn’t choose to fall in love with their partners; they just did. Likewise, I fell in love with my husband…..there was nothing I could do about it (happily). I feel that this sort of argument, telling people how they should be living, is rather cruel and narrow-minded.
Your point is taken….As pro-aborts say “I just don’t believe the fetus is a person,” that doesn’t make it true. But science supports the claim that the unborn are persons, and cannot be anything BUT persons who deserve rights. But there is nothing to support a claim of “sanctity of a man/woman bond” outside of religion. There are gay animals. Science has shown us that homosexuality is not a lifestyle choice; it is a chemical and physiological fact. I believe in science. I also believe in love. I believe in love in many forms. Within reason—there are severe deviations (pedophilia, for example). But simply being gay isn’t a crime, it isn’t a disease, it isn’t evil and it shouldn’t be treated as such. The right to live, the right to exist, the right for the unborn to be protected under law—I believe in this to my very core. I also believe I do not have the right to tell any consenting adults (male/female, male/male, female/female) how they should conduct their romantic lives.
Team MaryLee. This topic is a divisive waste of time that relies on generalizations and untruths to cast GLBT people as something many of us are not. Less gay debate, more baby-saving, please.
Amen! The gay people I know don’t have an “agenda,” they just want to live their lives in peace.
May be true for some but doesn’t appear that way for the movement phillymiss. Just as MaryLee refuses to say she believes in the sanctity of the relationship between a man and a woman; but instead she will twist and weave around admitting it by saying it is not the only kind of loving relationship etc. etc. etc. And she will say how there are gay animals in nature but to accept her claim ‘scientifically’ would be preposterous because that kind of behaviour would lead to the end of that species. If they just wanted to leave ‘marriage’ alone and not claim that gay relationships were no different then heterosexual then I would not have as much of a problem with their cause. I could not have layed it out any simpler logically and she refuses to admit that unique scientifically supported life giving aspect of the man/woman relationship. And if life is sanctified then so is the relationship that produces life. If they don’t have an agenda then why is that so hard for homosexual supporters to admit?
Thanks, Vannah and Phillymiss. :D
Prolifer L: I appreciate you concern and intentions; I know they come from a good place. There are indeed a lot of health risks associated with promiscuous gay sex, and I don’t encourage or approve of promiscuity for anyone. However, for monogamous couples who make sure they’re disease-free before having sex with each other, this isn’t an issue.
On the baby-saving front, my CPC blanket is almost done…should have listened to my mom about using a different stitch. :)
Vannah, you keep posting like you did @508 p.m. yesterday and you might just turn me to your point of view. Very nicely done.
Again, Truthseeker, I am not saying I have no respect for male/female relationships. I have never said that. I am saying it is not the only relationship that exists, especially in nature. The concept of “holiness” varies from culture to culture, from religion to religion. Life is always life, and should always be respected. I have never seen any scientific or psychological evidence that healthy homosexual relationships are of less value than heterosexual relationships. I do not think propagation of a species is the only criteria for a valid relationship. Procreation is not the only reason we are here. Our purpose should be compassion for all. Compassion is far more important than procreation. Even if we should cease to exist, would we not return from whence we came? But while we are here, we are wasting our time making judgments on love, on judging an entire community, just as pro-aborts are wasting their time killing babies and making money from it.
Vannah
September 29th, 2010 at 5:08 pm
Stop blaming the GLBT community. Unrelated issues. Thank you for standing up MaryLee and Marauder. I’m not lesbian or bisexual or transgender myself, but I know that your comments DO matter.
I agree. Homosexuals developing HIV and/or having HIV/AIDS are not killing innocent human beings unless they are deliberately having sex with people without telling them they are HIV positive. Homosexuality is unrelated to the prolife cause and should be kept separate. Promiscuity is related to the prolife cause only because it can result in unwanted pregnancies that end in abortion. Homosexuality does not result in unplanned pregnancies.
I can’t understand why ‘Team Mary-Lee’ is supporting risky (anal) sex among gay men. This is the main mechanism for how HIV is transmitted. I care enough about gay men to tell them the truth, I wish they would too.
Jasper, your comments are disrespectful and rude. I simply cannot understand your way of thinking.
By the by, I am going outside for a cigarette. It is an awful and destructive habit; I am well aware of this fact. It is no more or less destructive than gay sex. It is far less destructive than pride and arrogance.
The unborn have a right to live; my rights end when it involves the body of another. It is my right to choose to smoke…..It is NOT my right to choose to kill my child. Why homosexual relationships are connected to the issue of abortion is beyond me. They are not related, and can never be related, no matter how you try.
I am gay and pro-life. Who I love does not change the reality of life beginning at conception and deserving protection under law.
In fact, adoptions by gay families should be encouraged by pro-lifers. And adoption agencies should not close their doors (like the Catholic agencies in DC) just because they oppose marriage equality.
We are dealing with a human rights issue- the greatest of our time- Children are having their lives taken from them in truly violent ways and women are being forever wounded by the tragedy of abortion.
Gay Americans would be more willing to consider the pro-life position if pro-lifers didn’t condemn them to hell or treat their loving relationships as second class.
I don’t see why you’re seem so overly concerned with the sexual behaviors of other consenting adults, Jasper.
Do a little surfing around the internet and you’ll see that there are plenty of heterosexuals who partake in sexual activities that can be “risky.” Heck, there are tons of non-sexual activities that adults do every day for pleasure that are dangerous. Unless you plan on identifying all these behaviors and notifying all participants of their risks I can only assume that your interest in gay sex is because you have a problem with gay people.
I don’t think the Catholic Church is the place to look for guidance on sexual morality, Matt. There seems to be something wholly unnatural about the expectation that priests channel all sexual urges into expressions of piety. How’s that scheme working for the Church?
The term “natural” is dumb. Are we so intellectually impoverished to believe that the human species would die out if gayness were universally accepted? Not every heterosexual couple chooses to reproduce, and clergymen certainly aren’t supposed to. You’re just unhappy that someone dares threaten the hegemony of the nuclear family structure.
Oops. Sorry Claire and Vannah and thanks Bobby. I’ll be more careful when I use names.
Q: “How’s that scheme working for the Church?”
A: Statistically better than it is anywhere outside of the Church.
Some of my gay friends are just normal people who want to live their lives quietly. sure. Some of them are very much in the movement and this movement has recommended reading for elementary school students detailing teen boys being molested by older males. I know not every homosexual is a pedophile and that there are heterosexual pedophiles. So thats not my point. But why is the gay community so fixated on pushing this pornographic reading on young 10 year old kids? I have a huge issue with the gay community trying to teach my son that this is okay. I will not let that happen. If they want to sodomize each other in private that is their right but I will not let my son’s morals be warped with homosexuality, or heterosexual promiscuity for that matter. I am going to teach my son God’s view of sex. That it is precious and wonderful and can give immense physical AND emotional pleasure when used the way God intended in marriage between man and a woman.
The gay movement DOES have an agenda. Anyone who doesn’t think that is terribly deceived. Which doesn’t mean every gay person has an agenda but the movement does.
Person who posted as Abe Lincoln,
I don’t know if you are trying to say that the real Abe Lincoln had sexual relations with men, but this is one of the problems with the acceptance of homosexual behavior- it has destroyed true, intimate friendship among males. Now if two men talk of their love for one another or show any kind of non-sexual physical affection, they are suspected to be gay. This is the problem with David and Johnathan in the Old Testament. They have a deep masculine friendship that is completely foreign to today’s understanding of male friendship, unless you assume they are “gay.” This is also the same problem you are referring to with Abe Lincoln and his close male friend Joshua Speed. They slept in the same bed together and wrote of their love for one another, and of course since in today’s society we can’t understand how two men could “only” be friends and act that way, they are considered to have been sexually involved. This article http://touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=18-07-021-f discusses it very well. I have recently learned about this phenomena, and it deeply saddens me because I have always desired to be much closer to my male friends, and now I see more clearly the aversion to such close friendship.
Bobby Bambino
September 30th, 2010 at 12:17 pm
I have recently learned about this phenomena, and it deeply saddens me because I have always desired to be much closer to my male friends, and now I see more clearly the aversion to such close friendship.
You’d probably enjoy “The Four Loves” by C.S. Lewis. In the chapter on Friendship, he talks about this very issue.
I wish same-sex friends could be more openly affectionate, too. When I spent two months in Zambia and South Africa, I was amazed to see male friends and female friends being so outwardly affectionate with one another. Grown men with their arms draped over each other’s shoulders, young women linking arms or holding hands. It was so incredibly sweet. If you were to act like that here, people would almost automatically assume you were gay. When I was in public school, in grade 5, I was walking with my sister at recess one day (she was in grade 2). I felt so much love for her that I reached out and began holding her hand. Within seconds, a nearby 5th grader shouted at me, “Why are you holding her hand? Are you a lesbian?!” I immediately let go of her hand and never held it again. To this day it still grieves me. Same-sex friends should have the freedom to love one another and be affectionate without being accused of sexual motivations.
“I don’t see why you’re seem so overly concerned with the sexual behaviors of other consenting adults, Jasper.”
I bring it up for a reason. ‘Team Mary Lee’ know that the type of sex gay men engage in is wrong and can be very harmful and deadly. They cover their eyes to the facts/data behind this. Then they turn around and call us religious pro-lifers bigots and homophobes mentioning these dangers. What they are doing is not fair.
Sorry guys no amount of being politically correct, open-minded and tolerant changes the facts. Your admission that “promiscuous gay sex” is more risky and dangerous than being monogamous is true and duly noted but it does not change the medical facts that gay sex is dangerous, unhealthy and risky. You are either ignoring or not bothering to read the CDC article, Jill’s article, the FDA article or ”The Health Risk of Gay Sex” article listed because it is incongruent with the main stream PC propaganda and your love for your gay friends which I can appreciate.
BTW there were recently Congressional Hearings to try to change the FDA policy regarding blood donors in the US. There was tremendous pressure to become PC but the change was defeated by the committee. If you have ever tried to donate blood you should have read the FDA policy to refuse blood donations from MSM. When you read the blood donor policy it gives the FDA guidelines.
The FDA guidelines list that men are to defer to donating blood if:
1 they have EVER had sex with another man
2. even if they are in a monogamous relationship with another man
3. even if they use “safer sex” practices by consistently, correctly using condoms everytime they have sex.
Why is that? Because they want to presecute gay men? Because they have an over-abundance of blood donors? Because they are a part of a conspiracy against gays? The answer to every one of these last 3 questions is NO. They know and document that it could contaminate the entire US blood supply to change this policy. It should be noted that if the potential blood donor has had sex with anyone who is an Injection Drug User or has sex with anyone who has had sex for money they are asked to defer donating as well but why is the prohibition so strong for MSM because they are the most at risk group in the entire population. READ THE CDC REPORT!
The Health Risks of Gay Sex by Dr. John Diggs documents the physical, anatomical, biological and immunological risks along with the mental and emotional health risks even in countries that embrace the gay lifestyle giving documented research from the Netherlands not just research from the “homophobic” USA.
I wish same-sex friends could be more openly affectionate, too.
I agree. In Asian and Spanish-speaking countries women hold hands, too. My son is so worried about looking gay that he won’t even share an umbrella with another guy. Whatever.
I have a gay friend who is prolife, he is the lawyer who handled the adoption of my son. He said that not all gay people agree with what the “leaders” of the gay rights movement say. Alll the women here: do you agree with NOW, Nancy Pelosi and other women’s “leaders,” at least as appointed by the media?
Hostility towards gay people causes a great deal of pain. My closeted sister is miserable because my parents hate gay people and she has to hide her true identity from them. Do you think this is right?
I have to admit that I do have some problems with the morality of homosexual behavior. But I try to adopt a Christ-like attitude towards everyone. I don’t think that Jesus would reject gay people, do you?
BTW, AbeLincoln, thanks for your post! There are some of us that welcome gay people to the prolife movement.
Articles about the problems with Diggs’s book:
http://joebrummer.com/WordPress/?page_id=62
http://holybulliesandheadlessmonsters.blogspot.com/2009/02/more-on-phony-expert-john-r.html
While people may have their issues with the intentions and mindsets of the authors of the articles, they do point out a lot of facts about the problems with Diggs’s work.
Besides the issues with peer review, faulty reasoning, and a lack of evidence, another problem not mentioned is that an inordinate amount of his American data comes from San Francisco.
Oh Bekah, thank you so much for sharing. That is very telling. I think that that experience and the attitude that was conveyed towards you is probably fairly typical. I will definitely read the book. God love you.
Phillymiss, there is the problem right there with your mindset as well as the mindset of Abe Lincoln, Vannah and others. Who said we hate gay people? Because I don’t agree with their lifestyle I hate them? Or because Prolifer L speaks out the truth about the risks of such a lifestyle? no. I don’t agree with pro-abortion folks but do I hate them? no.
I just don’t agree. It doesn’t have anything to do with hating the people who espouse those views. I am never going to see homosexuality as normal and healthy. It isn’t. That doesn’t mean I want to go out and kill gay people or be really really rude to them in the supermarket or hope they get diseases and die etc…
Who is showing more love to gay people? The ones who warn about the risks to health etc…that the gay lifestyle brings or the ones who pretend its all okie dokie? If you saw a woman starving herself to death to try and be a size 0 would you pretend that it was okay and that those who warned about the dangers of extreme dieting were “haters”? no. you would speak out about the dangers and not pretend that this woman starving herself was normal even if the woman truly couldn’t help herself. Women who have anorexia don’t “choose” to be that way yet the risks to that lifestyle are still there. In my mind its all the same. Gay people might truly not be able to help themselves but that doesn’t mean their behavior isn’t extremely risky. And most gay people in a relationship now went through multiple partners before coming to that long term relationship.
So to summarize after my rambling…we may not agree with the lifestyle but that doesn’t mean we hate gay people. pulease.
I honestly believe that many people are against gay rights and homosexuality in general because of their religious beliefs, and that is perfectly fine. What bothers me is when they use the health risks associated with anal sex to defend their religious beliefs. I don’t know of any health risks regarding lesbian sex, and lesbians are also gay. Is it ok to be a gay woman, just not a gay man? What about my gay male friend who only engages in oral sex with his monogamous partner of 11 years? Neither of them enjoy anal sex but they are both sexually attracted to other men. Is Jasper ok with their relationship since they are avoiding the health risks he speaks of?
Every person who lights up a cigarette knows that it is unhealthy. They still choose to engage in that behavior. I dislike the smell of smoke and I do not allow people to smoke in my home because it makes my house smell bad, not because I care about their health. I do care about my smoker friends’ health, of course, but it is their own business if they choose to ignore the risks and smoke anyway. I do not pretend that my house rules about smoking are because I don’t want them getting cancer. That would be a lie.
To be fair, I do think len makes a good point in the sense that as unhealthy as cigarettes are, I do not believe that that makes them intrinsically evil, nor would I call them sinful (at least in a small moderation). Thus, even if the case is very strong that homosexual actions are PHYSICALLY destructive, that would not, I think, make them intrinsically evil which is what we claim. Now I think there are arguments based on natural law that work to show that all homosexual acts are contrary to nature and hence disordered, but I don’t think most people find them compelling. So while I wouldn’t say that my (nor one’s) opposition to homosexual actions is based solely on religion, I do at least understand why it is difficult for us to make a compelling case to those who support homosexual actions.
I don’t think that Jesus would reject gay people, do you?
Christ Jesus did not and does not reject anyone who comes to Him in humility and repentance — asking Him to forgive them and set them free. We see that throughout the NT.
The Bible says the fear of God is to hate evil. When Christ Jesus quoted OT scriptures which mentioned the fear of God, He substituted the word worship for fear. IOW, the fear of God doesn’t equal being afraid of God — not at all. The true fear of God is to worship God, to acknowledge that His wisdom is as high above ours as the heavens are above the earth. Anyone who truly fears and worships Him will humble themselves before Him.
Those who cherish sin, who will not acknowledge it, who will not repent of it, are not forgiven. And one must be forgiven to be set free of it.
Christ Jesus hated sin because He saw clearly how it destroys lives in every way — spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically. He said that Satan comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but that He has come to give life, and that more abundantly. Not only here and now, but through all eternity.
Because He hated sin, He went to the cross to make the way for everyone to be forgiven, delivered, healed, and restored to the people the Lord meant for them to be. He said, “Whosoever will may come.”
Though on the other hand, I would strongly discourage anyone from smoking, and if homosexual actions are as physically damaging as is claimed, then I would strongly discourage anyone from engaging in such actions. But again, there is a large jump between strongly discouraging an action and condemning it as intrinsically evil.
Just kind of talking to myself out loud here.
Who said we hate gay people?
Please reread my posts carefully. I didn’t say that anyone here hated gay people, but some so-called Christians do.
just don’t agree. It doesn’t have anything to do with hating the people who espouse those views. I am never going to see homosexuality as normal and healthy. It isn’t. That doesn’t mean I want to go out and kill gay people or be really really rude to them in the supermarket or hope they get diseases and die etc…
I never said that you, or anyone here, wants to do such things. But I don’t know why Christians constantly single out homosexual behavior as being so terrible. Isn’t adultery forbidden by the Bible, too?
Phillymiss, absolutely adultery is sin and forbidden by God. And ya know what? 50% of marriages in the US end in divorce (and that figure is climbing). Of those 50% of divorces I believe it is a high figure like 40% of those that adultery played a part in the demise of the marriage. I think adultery is a huge problem in America today. No one takes marriage seriously or treats it as the sacred commitment it is. For BETTER or for WORSE. No one wants to stay faithful through the worse. So many people justify their wondering eyes.
The only difference is there isn’t a movement of adulterers trying to gain public support for their infidelity and teach our kids that cheating on your spouse is ok. Most people would agree that adultery is destructive to the family and hurts those involved. There isn’t an adulterers history month like there is GLBT month (October).
I’m glad you understood what I was getting at, Bobby. I think.
Yes, of course I would discourage anyone from smoking. But I’m not going to condemn smokers as a whole because of their habit. A person with an addiction to nicotine can stop smoking, but they are still addicted to nicotine. They can injest nicotine by other methods that aren’t as dangerous as cigarettes, is that still wrong, or evil?
Hal,
How are you? I was thinking about writing a blog. But I am not very good about that sort of thing. It would be my little human rights organization in a way. I was planning out things that I want to do for the world, and I have a list that I’ve been threatening to put to action for quite some time now (alas, I am the sloth…):
Concerts for Darfur. Get musicians to play and donate music. Have speakers. And it would of course expose new art to the world while promoting peace for Darfur.
Frequent newsletters on the state of other things which I’m really passionate about: Romani rights, genocide, the environment, and, yes, children’s rights. I have always been so afraid of how I would be received if I called myself pro-life. Because picking any side on such a polarizing debate is going to lead to awkward glances, but I believe in doing the right thing. I meant what I said in my post. I want a better world for women and children. And I’m not afraid of what anyone thinks about me. I have to be what I want to be.
Education on animal rights. I have dreamed recently of going around schools and educating children on wolves, tigers, leopards, and other beautiful animals.
Athletic event for all people. Originally, I wanted it to be for women. But that wouldn’t be equal and would not set an example for equality.
“I’m glad you understood what I was getting at, Bobby. I think.”
You think I understand, or you think you’re glad?
Hehhehe…
“They can injest nicotine by other methods that aren’t as dangerous as cigarettes, is that still wrong, or evil?”
But remember, I wouldn’t consider smoking nor this “evil”, just bad for you, and in that same sense, I’m saying that is why I agree with you that we (those of us who are always and in every case opposed to homosexual actions) can’t expect those who support homosexual actions to be persuaded that homosexual actions are EVIL by appealing to data about its harmful effects on the physical body. I think at best we could use it to argue that you should try and discourage it, even strongly discourage it and talk about all the harmful effects by appealing to the statistics, but it is admittedly a jump from that to intrinsically evil.
I think that is sort of (or at least one of) the point you were getting at, right?
Vannah, are you in college now? Do you mind sharing where you are? I’m just curious because I like Colleges and Universities. If you’d rather keep that anonymous, that is of course perfectly fine.
Vannah,
If you believe that life begins at conception and believe in the sanctity of that life from conception to natural death then you are PROLIFE!!
Stand up and be counted, girl!! :)
You have other passions as well and I am glad to see that. We may not agree on everything but I will stand with anyone who will fight for the rights of the preborn!
But remember, I wouldn’t consider smoking nor this “evil”, just bad for you, and in that same sense, I’m saying that is why I agree with you that we (those of us who are always and in every case opposed to homosexual actions) can’t expect those who support homosexual actions to be persuaded that homosexual actions are EVIL by appealing to data about its harmful effects on the physical body. I think at best we could use it to argue that you should try and discourage it, even strongly discourage it and talk about all the harmful effects by appealing to the statistics, but it is admittedly a jump from that to intrinsically evil.
Yes! This exactly. I don’t just “think” you understand anymore. ;)
If you are against homosexuality because you believe that it is morally wrong, which I understand and am perfectly fine with, then be honest about this. Throwing out arguments about the healt dangers of certain homosexual activities is not going to do anything to convince those who do not agree with you on a moral standpoint that homosexuality is wrong. It will, in fact, just make the arguer look disingenuous because it is usally quite obvious when one does not support homosexuality on moral grounds. It is quite apparent that Jasper’s religous beliefs are what fuels his feelings about the subject. When he puports to care about the health risks that gay men completely unknown to him may be taking it seems dishonest and discredits his other arguements as well, becuase he seems to be not so honest in his debate.
And no one did ever answer that question about lesbians…. ;)
Ugh. Sorry about the spelling errors/typos in that last post. I forgot to proofread.
And I really don’t agree that the stats on health risks should be use to discourage homosexuality. If the risks are that bad we should be discouraging everyone from having anal sex, not just gay men. Heterosexuals engage in it as well.
“Yes! This exactly. I don’t just “think” you understand anymore.”
Wait, now I”m really confused…
I thought I was saying exactly what you were saying- that is, I am indeed against homosexual actions on moral grounds, and it would not be any different whether or not the studies existed or if even homosexual actions DECREASED the risk of HIV.
But my point was that we can at least still use the data to argue for it to be not acceptable like smoking is. Again, that isn’t what I base MY beliefs on, but maybe this is information that others would be interested in. It’s sort of like how I think Planned Parenthood is evil, regardless if they cover up cases of statutory rape. but some pro-choicers who would not otherwise think PP is evil, may withdraw their support of PP if they learn about PP’s statutory rape cover-ups. But for me, it doesn’t matter if they cover up statutory rape or not- there are other reasons why I think they are evil.
So I freely admit that my main problem with homosexual actions is not based on scientific evidence, but moral arguments. But others may be interested in the science…right?
Oh good grief, len, I just got what you mean when you say
“I don’t just “think” you understand anymore.”
You mean now you KNOW I understated. I thought you meant “I used to think you understood, but now I”m not so sure.” Wow, okay, ignore above… gotcha, gotcha, gotcha….
Sorry, I am a confused and helpless old man…
“If the risks are that bad we should be discouraging everyone from having anal sex, not just gay men. Heterosexuals engage in it as well.”
I agree!
Right. The only thing I don’t agree with is this:
But my point was that we can at least still use the data to argue for it to be not acceptable like smoking is.
We can indeed present the data and make people aware of the risks, but only to make them aware that there are, indeed, risks, not to argue that it is not acceptable. Just because something carries risk does not mean that it is wrong or unaccetpable. Once an adult person is educated about the risks he or she is taking, it is not anyone elses business if they continue to carry on with an activity that is not illegal or putting others at risk or in danger against their will.
I am pretty sure that reason that smoking is no longer accepted in society the way it once was is because of the dangers of second-hand smoke to nonsmokers. Not because it is harmful to the smoker. That’s a huge reason the number of smokers has declined, for sure, but not why smoking laws came into effect.
Yes, I think that is correct, len. By acceptable, I had the idea of the “stigma” that smoking has in mind. Not that it should be illegal or thought of as evil, but that, say, people are surprised when they learn that someone smokes because it is so bad for you and they wonder why someone would do it. Now I don’t claim to have carefully studied any of these studies on homosexual behavior, so I don’t know if that is the case with homosexual behavior, but that is at least the philosophy behind the idea.
Okay, modulo second hand smoke ;)
Vannah, start your blog anyway. So what if people don’t like that you’re prolife — perhaps you can convert them!
Unfortunately there is still a very strong stigma attached to homosexuality in our society. Google “Tyler Clementi” to read about a very recent tragedy because of this.
Obviously we are on different sides of the debate with regards to homosexuals and homosexual behavior, Bobby. My feelings about it are one of the main reasons I have had trouble returning to Catholicism (do you remember our conversation from months ago?). But I have enjoyed our conversation here.
Morality aside, it should also be pointed out that the environmental landscape of our society has changed in the last half century. Ever heard of “gender-benders”? Plastics contaminating food and water, phytalates, chemicals in household cleaning products, have been linked to gender-confusion (and even genital deformities) in newborns and children. Another biggie is growth hormones in milk. Pumping cows full of estrogen to keep them lactating all year round, and to make them grow bigger (growth hormones have been banned in Canada and Europe but not the U.S.!). Boys are raised on this dairy, consuming estrogen year after year after year after year. Who knows what kind of effects that build-up in their bodies is having!
“do you remember our conversation from months ago?”
Of course :;
Oh… apparently :; is not a winking smiley face… I need to improve my understanding of emoticons…
MEGAN, 1) What’s with the backward spelling, we know you are the megan who posts and we’ve already called you on it numerous times.
2) Public school teachers are more frequent molesters than Catholic priests but the main stream media isn’t going to spread that fact. The Catholic church has done a huge crackdown and has put many safety measures in place, including fingerprinting and running background checks. Again, the liberal media is NOT going to report it because it doesn’t promote their agenda.
and to all of you 3) There have been a large number of lesbians visible in the pro-abortion movement, and a very small number of lesbians visible in the pro-life movement. If gay people want to be pro-life, then get on board. Go public, blog, talk, support pregnant women who need help. It will not be invisible if you do. Get off the couch and help us! And if you’re straight and pro-life, I say the same thing, put down the ipod and the DVD player, get off the couch and help us!
Ninek, I think there are some perfect examples of why lesbians may distance themselves from the prolife movement, even if they are prolife, in several of the comments made above by outspoken prolifers.
Carla and Phillymiss,
Would anyone actually read my blog? You can guest blog! I think that it would be nice to have so many voices! :D
Vannah, I would totally read your blog. I am pro life but I am pretty liberal regarding most other social issues, and I think you do, too. I wish there were more of us!
Okay. I will get an outline. :)
Nice to meet you, Len. I will post a link here when I get the outline going. I hope to see you there. We can party. Big time.
Bobby,
Sorry that I missed your earlier question: I take classes at a community college. This semester and next. Wisdom and intelligence are sort of my biggest purposes in life, perhaps of greater value to me than my work. It’s very important. But I don’t handle classrooms and sitting still and taking notes well, so I will only go for a certain amount of time. I take anthropology, women’s literature, costuming, pottery, and geology. Next semester, I will take linguistics, astronomy, philosophy, biological anthropology, and one other class, though I don’t know which one. :)
See that is the problem right there. If a lesbian is willing to let children die because her feelings are hurt that some people don’t support her lifestyle then she isn’t pro-life to begin with. This isn’t a club we all join because we are lonely and want to make friends. Its a WAR. Its a war on the evil going on in this country and in the world where children are being BUTCHERED. And if Ninek and Bobby Bambino and Carla and Jill herself all told me they thought I was a stupid loser I would STILL BE PRO-LIFE. So to gay pro-life people…get over it. If you disagree with us on homosexuality and we with you it doesn’t mean you can’t still speak out against the evil being perpetrated against unborn children.
Abe said:
“Gay Americans would be more willing to consider the pro-life position if pro-lifers didn’t condemn them to hell or treat their loving relationships as second class.”
Abe, Real pro-life people are pro-life regardless of how others behave. And I would rather picket with a real pro-life person (gay or not) than 10 people who there as some kind of political agreement.
Sydney,
I think your posts have been spot-on.
MaryLee said, “I have never seen any scientific or psychological evidence that healthy homosexual relationships are of less value than heterosexual relationships. I do not think propagation of a species is the only criteria for a valid relationship.”
MaryLee, The preponderance of evidence in science and in nature is that homosexual relationships are an aberration. Do you really not see the evidence of the benefits to a child that is raised by both a mother and a father rather than say being raised by two males? And would you deny that propogation of the species is the defining criteria that validates our propensity towards intercourse? As far as valid criteria for sex, same sex sex is about equivalent to masturbation. Tell me what value you see in homosexual “sex” other than some people using it to get off cause it feels good to climax? Really no value at all that I can see.
I can understand people saying that if you are prolife, it shouldn’t matter what others think and you should fight.
But, think of it this way…
Would you really want to fight with someone who would turn on you as soon as the battle is over?
There are MANY prolifers who, as soon as abortion is illegal, would then start fighting against what they believe to be the next big threat to morality: homosexuality.
I know that I would not be inclined to fight with people thinking/knowing that they will come after me next.
Also, it is a pet peeve of mine, but what is gay sex? There is nothing, no act whatsoever, that gay people do that hetersexuals don’t.
If you mean anal sex, then say anal sex. If you mean oral sex, say oral sex. I fyou mean somehting else, say what you mean.
Jodes, There are an infinite number of sexual acts that heteosexuals engage in and gay people don’t. One obvious act is putting your penis into your partners vagina.
“I know that I would not be inclined to fight with people thinking/knowing that they will come after me next.”
Jodes, I would to save a child’s life.
truthseeker,
So that is hetersexual sex. Fine. Define gay sex, something that homosexuals do that heterosexuals don’t.
The news article about the guy who video-taped Tyler Clementi said that he would have done the same thing if Tyler had been with a girl. This does not relate to this discussion.
truthseeker, it is easy for you to say that when you don’t actually think it will happen to you. And I applaud those who are able to stand up even though they know they will be the next ones under attack. But most people, I think, would not be able to fight next to someone thinking that they have to watch their step and what they say all the time because their time is next.
As much as I would love to say I could do it, I honestly don’t know if I could. I know this makes me look weak, and not true to my cause, but it’s true: I just don’t know if I could go through that everyday.
Ps. Understand that not being inclinded to fight with people does not mean I wouldn’t fight on my own.
The CDC article cited in the title article shows a strong disparity between homosexual sex and heterosexual sex, as pertaining to the physical dangers involved.
Not long ago, Time magazine ran an article about homosexuals throwing caution to the wind, having ‘bareback’ parties with no condoms, anus/mouth sex (called ‘rimming’), practices that are not common among heterosexuals. Hundreds of homosexuals were attending those orgies.
IIRC, the main contributing factor to this lack of caution has been the development of meds which limit the effects of AIDS.
Alas, this did not save the life of a dear friend of mine, a brilliant young man with a promising future, who died at the age of 39 last year. He and his partner had frequented such parties for some time.
Claire
Those kind of parties are also not common for homosexuals. Nor are those parties exclusively homosexual.
For example:
I can’t find the article right now, but I will look for it.
There used to be a thing called rainbow parties. These were for heterosexuals.
Women would all wear a different colour of lipstick, something bright and distinctive.
And the men would compete to see who had the most colours on their penis at the end of the party.
This is one example of how heterosexuals purposely go to have reckless and very risky sex. If you look, you will find just as many bad examples from hetero and homosexuals.
And, so you know, orgies are just as common for heterosexuals as homosexuals.
Jodes, I never implied that orgies are limited to homosexuals.
I referenced the Time magazine article because it mentioned practices which are not common to heterosexuals, and the CDC article referenced in the title article here shows a great disparity between homosexuals and heterosexuals, pertaining to physical consequences of those sexual acts.
Claire, sorry for the confusion! I didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.
The practises mentioned, such as rimming (mouth to anus) are not as uncommon for heterosexuals as many believe, but they are less so then homosexuals, that is true.
The fact that those sexual practices are not common among heterosexuals is the reason for the great disparity of physical consequences between homosexuals and heterosexuals — as cited by the CDC.
Truthseeker and Sydney thank you for your post. We stand for life and we stand for family. No we do not hate anyone.
What is “gay sex” Jodes? You know what you are asking a very illuminating question because in ANATOMY 101 LESSON women have a “Female Reproductive System” and men have a “Male Reproductive System” you want to take a guess what parts of the male reproductive system were meant to unite “marry” and fit into the female reproductive system for unitive and REPRODUCTIVE sex. Sex, is the beautiful awesome loving expression of the covenant which unites or “marries” the anatomical, biological, physiological, hormonal, emotional, psychological and yes even the spirits of a husband and wife. No amount of contortions, objects, sex toys, other body parts, or anything else you can concoct or dream up will change the purpose of the female vagina, cervix, uterus, ovaries, fallopian tubes and ova or of the male penis, testicles, epididmus (sp?). and sperm. Good question when and why did heterosexuals become so enthralled with using their Excretory Systems designed for excreting human waste as a receptacle for reproductive body fluids?
I worked many years in healthcare saw the miracle of birth many times and I ONLY SAW WOMEN BIRTHING BABIES OUT OF THEIR REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEMS. You can hate the messenger and hate the message, even hate what God created your body to do still does not change the truth that our bodies were created to create LIFE, that is why we have a REPRODUCTIVE SYSTEM. I BELIEVE IF WE ARE PRO-LIFE. WE STAND FOR LIFE. If you are angered by what I said I am sorry but it does not change that I love you and God loves you and it is the truth. (No I do not believe that married people who cannot have babies or are post-menopausal should not have great sex lives because they cannot reproduce or make babies)
truthseeker,
“So that is hetersexual sex. Fine. Define gay sex, something that homosexuals do that heterosexuals don’t.”
Jodes, how about have a swordfight. lol With hetrosexual sex it is the complimentary nature of the sex that makes it so different from homosexual sex. For example a woman’s breasts rub up against a man’s chest when they embrace. The list is almost infinite.
I am trying not mention the complimentary nature in the spiritual realm of things cause others have asked for more scientific reasoning; but to me they are even more significant cause though I fail; I consciously try and follow the will of God according to Christ’s teaching.
Thanks truthseeker for stating what is obvious but I am going to bed now. Jodes is totally wrong in stating that heterosexuals “typically” practice the same type of practices as homosexuals and commonly have orgies, those who have experimented with the GLB lifestyle maybe. What a mess the so-called “sexual revolution” and “reproductive choice” has wrought. DEATH AND DESTRUCTION. Good night.
“But most people, I think, would not be able to fight next to someone thinking that they have to watch their step and what they say all the time because their time is next. As much as I would love to say I could do it, I honestly don’t know if I could. I know this makes me look weak, and not true to my cause, but it’s true: I just don’t know if I could go through that everyday.”
Jodes, The focus outside abortuaries is exclusively on saving babies lives. In my years of protest homosexuality has never even come up.
Good night ProLifer L
Prolifer, I never said heterosexuals typically do anything. I also don’t think homosexuals typically do anything. I don’t think orgies are common for anyone. I just don’t think they are more common for homosexuals then heterosexuals.
I don’t deny that the only way children are born is from a female’s reproductive organ. I never stated otherwise. But, there are many ways that many people, of any orientation, have sex. While I can’t speak for anyone other than myself, I find it exteremly difficult to believe that the only thing that counts as sex in penis in vagina. Oral sex and manual stimulation (aka, using your hands on your partners genatals) is a regualr part of many peoples sex lives. I would be so bold to say it is true of millions of people. And even though other body parts can be used in sex, you are right that it will never change what reproductive organs are for. However, sex is not just about reproduction, even if it is a likely outcome. And, sex can be unitive without reproduction. And, being against abortion, if a couple does not want to reproduce, I think it is a-okay if they have other types of sex, provided they know the risks.
My point is not that one is better then the other, or that one is less risky then the other.
My point is that people of all orientations practise “gay sex”. And it is no more riskier for 2 men or 2 women then it is for 1 man and 1 woman.
And, as for your speach on me hating the messanger, god, my body, or whatever… All of that is just so not the point. I don’t hate you, the message, my body, or any of that. All I am trying to get across is how ridiculous it is to say “gay sex” is so risky and dangerous, without acknowledging that it is not something exclusive to homosexuals. If you said all the exact same things, but instead of “gay sex” said anal sex, I would agree with you. It is risky, and anyone who has any desire to practise it should know all the facts, risks, procautions and failure rate of procautions.
I just don’t limit it to homosexuals.
“My point is that people of all orientations practise “gay sex”.”
Whoaaaa!! Whoaaa!!! Whhooooaa!!!! I gotta disagree with you there Jodes. Are you trying to change the definition of gay sex? lol Lets get our vocabulary correct here. It is NOT possible for a man and a woman to have gay sex and it is NOT possible for two men (or two women)to have straight sex? Gay sex requires same sex partners. You may be confusing gay sex with sterile sex.
People who believe that pro-choicers stay pro-choice because pro-lifers are annoying are incorrect. If you really believe abortion is murder, you wouldn’t care if you were the only reasonable person and all the other pro-lifers were bat-guano crazy. Abortion is murder. I’d be against it no matter how charming the pro-choicers were. So when you say, “This is what turns people off to being pro-life” I say, If you’re that easy to turn off, you ain’t pro-life.
My point is that people of all orientations practise “gay sex”. And it is no more riskier for 2 men or 2 women then it is for 1 man and 1 woman.
One man and one woman do not practice ‘gay sex’. They practice heterosexual sex.
Your second statement is completely disproven by the statistics in the CDC article referenced here – did you read it?
If not, you should, so that you can realize these false statements are not true, and cease spreading false information.
Jasper – you are exactly right, as is Jill in her column.
WHERE ARE THE HEALTH WARNINGS??
I lived in the gay life for 15 years. Mary Lee maybe all your gay friends tell you they’re monogamous but sweetheart you cannot believe everything people tell you about their sex lives. if you do a little reading and keep your eyes and ears open you will figure out that your friends (if they’re men) are most probably lying. Even if YOUR friends are part of the tiny percentage of men who really maintain long-term monogamous relationships, the statistics speak for themselve and you can get them RIGHT FROM THE GAY COMMUNITY. Read some books on homosexual male couples if you don’t know the real deal from living it. 3-ways and open relationships are common. Why so much more common than among straights? Because homosexual sex acts are qualitatively different than normal heterosexual sex. They may give pleasure but they are not as satisfying over the long haul and that is borne out by statistics documented in books about gay relationships written by people in gay relationships who have studied gay relationships.
And YES it IS everybody’s business! AIDS is caused by men putting their penises in eachother’s rectums. It really is that simple. Women who get it from men usually get it from men who have let another man/men into their rectum. The number of men who get AIDS without having anal sex or IV drug use is TINY relative to the populations involved.
Again – WHERE ARE THE HEALTH WARNINGS? Why do we never see homosexual organizations warning against multiple partners? Why don’t they advise young homosexuals to defer sexual activity until they’re older? Why can’t they admit that condoms have been a colossal FAILURE in stopping or even curbing AIDS? Because it runs counter to their dogma – sex = love. They live for sex. Kind of a paradox b/c that’s what’s killing them. And the worst part is they are killing themselves, but also taking a lot of other people (women) with them. All because they believe the lie that homosexuality and homosexual sex and “marriage” is exactly analogous to heterosexuality. IT IS NOT.
truthseeker,
maybe I am getting “gay sex’ and steril sex mixed up, it is possible. But, whenever I ask what people define as “gay sex”, I get a definition for straight sex… so, from that I must conclude that everything that isn’t under that definition (aka, penis in vagina) is “gay sex”. And that would mean that there are a whole lot of straight people partaking in “gay sex”.
IS the only thing that makes “gay sex” gay, the fact that there is only 1 gender invloved?? Or is it the act? What is it?
CLaire, I did read the article, and maybe I missed it, but where did they compare homosexuals to hetersexuals who practise anal sex?
Vannah,
That’s wonderful. CCs are great. I got my associate’s from a CC. Two of teh best years of my life. I don’t know why more people don’t choose to go to CC. It’s way cheaper and way more focused on actually getting you prepared for teh workforce.
Truthseeker, I was raised by a mother and a father. They hated each other, and fought violently every single day. I was beaten by my mother constantly. I love my parents, I still love them, but to say that a mommy and daddy are better than two loving daddies is incorrect. My closest friend from high school was raised by two mommies. She is a highly well-adjusted and very happy woman, with her own little baby now, and a good marriage. Who are we to judge?
You know what else is an aberration? Blue eyes. Curly hair. Nature is order; and it is chaos, too. To say that homosexuality is an “aberration” might be technically true, but aberrations are not moral or immoral.
Abortion is not an “aberration”, because it is the knowing destruction of a little baby. Abortion is an act of selfishness and death. It cannot be compared to homosexuality. It is not the same thing at all.
You don’t have to support them, or agree with them, but to put them in the corner, belittle them and judge them…..How is that not an act of disdain? How can you expect a community to trust you when you believe you are above them?
The only thing that religious pro-lifers have to “prove” their argument is, again, merely religious arguments. The gay community is not your enemy. They can be invaluable allies.
IS the only thing that makes “gay sex” gay, the fact that there is only 1 gender invloved?? Or is it the act? What is it?
Jodes, it is the fact that there is only 1 gender invloved?
Hopefully, the differing opinions of other pro-lifers wouldn’t make anyone quit being pro-life. But if a prominent pro-life website kept talking about, say, ”the link between Christian intolerance and abortion,” would you feel welcome there? Would you feel welcome there if you said you were a Christian but not intolerant, and people kept insisting there was something fundamentally wrong with Christianity? If all you wanted to do there was help the pro-life cause, would you want to stick around a place where you kept having to defend yourself against untrue generalizations? What about if you were, say, fifteen and just getting involved in the pro-life movement?
If someone believes that homosexuality is a sin because the Bible says so, fine with me. We have freedom of religion in this country. However, I do not tolerate people using questionable data to prove their point, or accusing a stranger’s friends of being liars, or trying to claim most gay people do this-or-that because “all the gay people I know do.” We don’t tolerate that from pro-choicers on abortion and I’m not tolerating it from anyone on anything else.
If gay rights activists are promoting abortion, go right ahead and call them on it. But the fact of the matter is that a man having sex with a man or a woman having sex with a woman never created a human life that was unjustly ended. If you want to hang out at websites that disapprove of homosexuality, go ahead and do that too.
Most of the time, this site is great. But as I’ve said before, every single gay-related posts gets us going on conversations that waste time without any results. As I’ve also said before, when someone mentions on this site that they’re Jewish or an atheist or whatever, that doesn’t seem to be an issue. It doesn’t derail conversations and no one starts telling them to accept Jesus as their Savior. If you think Jesus is the way to salvation but you can hear people disagree and get along with them, why can’t you do the same thing for homosexuality?
I’m lucky in that I don’t have a problem publically disagreeing with people. A lot of people do. That’s probably why the people of Jerusalem were welcoming Jesus on Palm Sunday and yelling “Free Barrabas!” a few days later – because they didn’t want to speak up and go against the crowd. As I’m sure you all know from other circumstances, it’s not fun. It’s not usually fun for GLBT people to be publically out of the closet, either, which is why it’s pretty much impossible to get accurate data on “gay people do this” or “gay people do that”. The best you’re going to get is “really liberal gay people in large cities do this”, and that’s unfair to thousands of GLBT people who are more concerned with the economy, their families, their hobbies, or their communities than they are sleeping around or promoting abortion.
Thank you, Marauder. I really like everyone on this board, too, by the way!
MaryLee said
“I love my parents, I still love them, but to say that a mommy and daddy are better than two loving daddies is incorrect.”
It sounds like you are trying to deflect answering my question by rationalizing a possible exceptions to a mother/father combo over to two daddies because not all mother’s are loving. I’ll try and ask you another way. Would you see any benefit to being raised by a loving woman and a loving man rather than two loving men?
MaryLee and Marauder,
I have tried using non-religious reasoning such as the complimentary nature of a man and a woman but that doesn’t seem to be getting through to you. Do you object to the validity of any spiritual aspects to interpersonal relationships or just the validity of bringing terms like ‘God’s presence’ into the debate?
Jodes, if you read the article, you know the CDC showed a significant disparity between the rates of MSM and WSW disease as compared to heterosexuals.
Jojo Dancer, THANK YOU for your input. It seems to have been ignored here by those who prefer not to hear and recognize the truth, but I am aware that everything you stated is indeed the truth.
Truthseeker, I do not see any benefit of being raised by a loving mother and loving father over two loving fathers. I’m not “trying” to rationalize anything. I am merely stating what I have experienced. The idea that heterosexuals are “better” than homosexuals is the same as pro-aborts saying the mother’s life is worth more than her child’s. Both are discrimination.
Also, “getting through to” me? You have not proven anything at all. Your statements are based on religion. You said homosexuality is an aberration—but there are myriads of “aberrations” in nature. Aberrations are not immoral. The only argument you have presented is that YOU believe homosexuality is immoral because a) it is an “aberration” and 2) it does not produce children and 3) the Bible says so. So, yes, YOUR message is “getting through.” Abortion is, and will always be, a horrific act of destruction. Homosexuality is not a horrific act of destruction, even if you are skeeved out by it or disagree with it or think it’s icky; my experience with the gay community (and I’m an artist, I’ve got lots of experience with them) is that they are people, who love, who pray, who gives, who read, who study, who work, and who are PEOPLE who happen to love persons of the same gender.
Anyway, this debate makes me sad. Marauder’s post is a beautiful one, and it IS the truth. Abortion, the murder of an innocent child for the benefit of the mother, is not related to homosexuality. I support your right to disagree with me; however, even if you find homosexuality to be a sin, it is a far less egregious sin than abortion is.
What about the spirituality question? I gotta go to work but I’ll check back again tonight for a response.
Truthseeker, I’m not a total atheist. I’ve even had a recent conversion towards….something resembling Christianity, with the help of a lot of C.S. Lewis (there are a lot of things going on in my life which made me re-evaluate my theological beliefs)…..I’ve studied theology for most of my life, and while I believe in the truths of redemption, goodness, compassion, generosity, and love–above all, LOVE, which is what God is made of…..I do not believe in discrimination, hatred, death, violence, bigotry, pride, and arrogance. I find the pro-abortion abuses the name of God, in order to support the most heinous act humanity will ever know (a mother’s killing of her own child, by her own will). I find the religious pro-life community to use God to support their arguments AND somehow bring homosexuality into the equation, as if they’re related, which they are not. In the sense that sexual activity is involved, yes. But they do not exist for the same reasons, and one of them is not a crime. I believe that God cares far less about someone’s sexual orientation than we do. I will not know that for sure, until I meet my Maker, but I have the sneaking suspicion He would want us to stop judging and belitting others who are “different.” I believe in moderation, in self-control, in monogamy, in honesty. I do not believe all homosexuals are lacking in self-control and are going to hell. I do not believe the homosexual couples I know, who love each other deeply and are devoted to each other, are less human or less worthy than I am.
Women who get it from men usually get it from men who have let another man/men into their rectum.
This is a big problem in the black community. Many black men are on the “down low” (have sex with men while proclaiming they are straight) and pass the virus on to their wives and girlfriends, which is one reason why black women have such a high rate of AIDs.
I have one questions: there is tons of evidence to show that homosexuality is genetically predisposed. Assuming this is true, why would a loving God make people with homosexual inclinations and condemn them to hell?
Hi Phillymiss.
“Assuming this is true, why would a loving God make people with homosexual inclinations and condemn them to hell?”
Any proclivity towards sin can be traced back to the fall and to original sin. Thus, those who suffer from same sex attraction are suffering from the effects of original sin. They are attracted to something good (the love of another) but disordered (sexual intimacy with someone of the same sex). But really, this can be said of any of us and all our faults. I have a disordered desire towards sexual impurity and in particular pornography. That is a result of original sin. Yet I know that this is a defect in my nature, and thus by the grace of God, I am able to control myself and not give into my desire to view pornographic material or engage in other sexual activities that are wrong.
Now as far as God condemning people to hell, we must remember that the general principle is that we choose hell for ourselves by cutting ourselves off from God through either hatred of him or disobedience or what have you. Does someone go to hell for “being gay”? No. We have no idea how many people or even who goes to hell out of ALL people, let alone those with same sex attraction. Just because someone has homosexual attraction certain does not mean they are going to hell. Even those who engage in homosexual actions we cannot say for sure are going to hell. We do not judge people’s souls. That is up to God. Only he knows what is in the heart of one who engages in homosexual actions. Yet we can warn them and let them know that by participating in such actions that they are putting their souls in extremely grave danger. Even if say, Andrew Sullivan died today, I would pray for the reprise of his soul. I would not presume that he went to hell and consider him a lost cause. I have no idea what is in his heart, nor do I have any idea what grace God could have given him in his last moments of life.
So that is how I might answer your question, my greater Philadelphia area friend. Any proclivity towards something disordered is due to original sin which makes our desires defective in various ways. But with the grace of God, we may overcome those desires. Finally, we cannot say that any individual or group goes to hell. Only God knows what is in the heart.
Hey Vannah – I went to a community college too! Like Bobby, I really don’t know why more people don’t go that route. It was a great experience for me – I initially chose it out of necessity, because my mom was very ill and I had to stay home and care for her (I left a full scholarship at a private college to do that, and I can’t say I was super-thrilled about it at first) but it ended up being something I’m so glad to have done. The best literature course I ever took was at my community college – my professor was so passionate, and because of the small school and niche aspect of the class (Latin American literature) I had lots of literal one-on-one time with her. I was actually surprised to discover that there was a whole realm of literature I hadn’t yet been exposed to, despite a literary focus in high school and college – Borges, magical realism, etc, I mean like MAJOR literary figures and movements - everything up until that point was always classical and French/British/James Joyce and American – and I’d never have expected to get such a specialized education at “just” a community college. That course was really pretty groundbreaking for me, both academically and personally.
Jojo Dancer’s post IS the truth. Painful, doesn’t tickle the ears, but the truth nonetheless.
I find the religious pro-life community to use God to support their arguments
Bible-believing Christians’ standard of truth is the Holy Bible, the Word of God.
Everyone has a standard of truth by which they measure all input they receive.
The Bible is ours.
We don’t “use” God. We simply believe His Word. His Word shows us that both abortion and homosexual behavior are abhorrent in His sight. We do not excuse any other sin by proclaiming what His Word says about those.
Women who get it from men usually get it from men who have let another man/men into their rectum
Jojo Dancer, please show me some evidence to back this up.
While maybe at one time this was the case, I belive this statement to be nothing but a flat-out lie. The porn industry has made sure of that. Though that’s a whole ‘nother topic for a whole other time!
I had a great experience at Community College, as well. Especially in my evening classes, where many of the students were adults returning to school with other obligations during the day. They took the classes more seriously than the “traditional” college kids did, because they knew the value of an education. Because of this our instructors respected the classes more, and it made for a great learning environment.
I swear I had some classes at CC that were more challenging than the ones I took in grad school!
len, note her word “usually”. She didn’t say “without exception”. From all I’ve seen and heard of this issue, what she said corroborates medical reports such as the one from CDC linked here.
I’m sorry, could you please point that data out to me? I’ve perused the linked material and I don’t see any numbers pertaining to what we are talking about here.
And I still believe that statement is nothing but a deliberate lie.
Claire, I’m not afraid of the truth. It doesn’t suit me, or convenience me, to hold these views towards the gay community. Along the same lines, I am not pro-life because it suits me—it is far less convenient to admit that the unborn are persons. But they are, because that is what science and logic tells me.
As for the word of God—yes, religious pro-lifers USE Scripture as arguments. And, again, how do you know for certain that views of homosexuality thousands of years ago was not, in fact, some complete misunderstanding of human nature? We hadn’t even begun to understand human physiology and psychology; we didn’t know that God doesn’t punish us with disease. We didn’t know what autism was. We didn’t know there was such a thing as clinical depression or bipolar disorder. We didn’t understand a lot of things. I am confounded when people who say they are Christians ignore three of the most important things Jesus ever said. The first:
1. Judge not lest you be judged.
2. He who is without sin cast the first stone.
3. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
This is what makes me sad. As I’ve said time and time again, Scripture also tells us not to eat pork. It tells us how to sell our daughters as slaves. It says many, many things that were obviously said because of a lack of understanding. Scripture also tells not to act as the Pharisees did, pointing out our holiness. Scripture tells us the lowly shall be exalted. Scripture celebrates mercy, humility, gentleness, kindness, compassion, and pureness of heart. Scripture warns us over and over again that pride is the most corruptive of all sins. And again, even if one disagrees with homosexuality, or believes it to be a sin, one would surely have to admit that killing a baby is far worse than loving someone of the same gender.
MaryLee,
Using the word love in place of sex in this discussion is disingenuous. For example when you say ”loving somebody of the same gender is ok”. Nobody here is even arguing that fact. I think we can all agree there is nothing wrong with people loving people of the same sex. Loving somebody does not mean it is ok to have sex with them. And that applies to hetero and homosexual relationships. Answer this question for me if you could; You probably have commited to long term loving relationships with many people; are there any of those people who you feel it would be completely wrong to have sex with them? If so, then why?
MaryLee, Those scripures you reference as the most important are beautiful but they are not the most important.
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Matthew 22:36-40
MaryLee said:
“This is what makes me sad. As I’ve said time and time again, Scripture also tells us not to eat pork. It tells us how to sell our daughters as slaves. It says many, many things that were obviously said because of a lack of understanding. ”
This is not true MaryLee. All Old Testament scripture needs to be looked at through the lens of Jesus Christ and his teachings because He is the fulfillment of the law and revelation of all scripture. The people of the Old Testament did not have Jesus Christ so they were bound to the law. Now that we have Jesus Christ we are freed from slavery to the law. See the words below that Jesus spoke to His disciples:
“It is not what enters one’s mouth that defiles that person; but what comes out of the mouth is what defiles one. He said to them, “Are even you still without understanding? Do you not realize that everything that enters the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled into the latrine? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and they defile. For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy. These are what defile a person, but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile.”
Matthew 15:11, 16-20
Thank you Jojo Dancer. Thank you for telling the truth whether people want to hear it or not. Jill’s question is so profound. Where are the health warnings? Jill’s article taken from the newest CDC research is so profound and as you can see it is causing quite a stir and being considered “hate speech” by some. But where are the heath warnings?
Jill repeated the medical facts from the CDC report, she did not make them up:
“Gay and bisexual men (MSM) of all races continue to be the risk group most severely affected by HIV. Additionally, this is the only risk group in the US in which the annual number of new HIV infections is increasing.”
MSM accout for nearly half of the more than 1 million people living with HIV in the US (48%) and they account for more than half of all new HIV infection in the US each year (53%)
Jill stated “Rather than encourage kids not to behave like sexual animals, they throw millions to teach them how not only to behave like sexual animals but avoid the consequenced by offering cheap or free birth control pills, STD treatments at school and taxis to the nearest abortion mill during math class…..Some people wonder why I sometimes post on the topic of homosexuality on my pro-life blog. It’s because the abortion and homosexual movement are flip sides of the same coin. Both want illicit sex without consequences.”
While the CDC estimates that MSM acount for just 4% of the US male population aged 13 and older, the rate of new HIV diagnoses among MSM in the US is more than 44 times that of other men”
Where are the health warnings especially for our children?
“Delaying sexual activity is linked to a child’s future success in their career, education and overall happiness”.
“66% of sexually active teens wish they had waited”.
Teens themselves say that abstaining from sexual activity would help them be more successful”
(above quotes from Parents Speak Up Nat’l Campaign-4parents.gov)
Here are direct quotes from PP’s teen guide “Healthy, Happy and Hot: A young person’s guide to their rights, sexuality and living with HIV”
“Sexual and reproductive rights are recognized arond the world as human rights. Every person living with HIV is entitled to these rights…”
“Have fun, explore and be yourself. Young people living with HIV have the right to sexual pleasure…and the right to practice safer sex…there are lots of different ways to have sex and lots of different types of sex. Sex can include…”
Under the title “Making Sex Safer”
“As a person living with HIV you may feel like you have all the responsibility for talking about safer sex and keeping your partner from getting HIV…Just because you have HiV does nto mean all the reponsibility is on you. Sex is often a social activity. This mean that practicing safer sex involves talking with your partner(s).
“Some people have sex when they have been drinking alcohol or using drugs. This is your choice…plan ahead by bringing condoms and lube and putting them close..so you won’t forget.”
Wow! This is instructions for teens to keep them “safe”
“Truthseeker, I do not see any benefit of being raised by a loving mother and loving father over two loving fathers. I’m not “trying” to rationalize anything. I am merely stating what I have experienced.”
MaryLee, I think you are just being argumentative so I will list some scientifically documented generalities that prove my point. There may be exceptions of course. When you say you do not feel as though your mother provided you anything that a man could not have provided you. She could have nursed you and provided you breast milk (though it isn’t required it is proven beneficial)? Or maybe talking to you about puberty and the things girls go through (the monthly hormonal and emotive changes are unique to women’s expeience. And your father could teach you a lot more about what boys think then a woman could. And at times a father might be more helpful then a mother as a protector since God gave men superior physical stature. That also gives men an advantage at being a provider because physical stature can be a benefit to manual labor. These biological differences are scientificly proven and make men and women complimentary in nature. Oh, and did I mention that men think more logically. lol
Prolifer L, let’s just put all HIV-infected individuals in quarantine. No more sex for them, no more human interaction. Keep your kiddos safe.
truthseeker: Ours is a service-based economy, so physical prowess isn’t really a prerequisite to joining the labor force, is it? But still, I reject your claims that women are less physically capable than men: http://www.tradeswomen.org/
I would arguet that while men typically have more brute strength, women have greater endurance. It’s the “women effect” in distance runners: as the length of the distance run gets longer, women’s times approach men’s because they have larger fat stores to keep them going during that ultra-marathon.
Also, on what grounds do you claim that men are more “logical”? What aspect of my physicality makes this so? My uterus? Does the uterus siphon away my logic-energy?
http://www.amazon.com/Sexing-Brain-Lesley-Rogers/dp/0231120109
“as the length of the distance run gets longer, women’s times approach men’s ”
Megan, Why are you arguing when your own words here prove my point? Key word you used there was “approaching”. And the logic comes from the fact that men do not going through the hormonal and emotive fluctuations that are naturally part of a womans biology.
I just finished six hours of praying outside an abortuary and I am here to tell everybody that Planned Parenthood is disgusting. All the “women” who went in looked like they were minors. Planned Parenthood, as an organization, is a child predator. Almost all of the victims they were commiting abortion on were minors. They encourage minors to have sex and teach them to lie and hide their sexual activity and contraception use from their legal guardians. And every single person who supports Planned Parenthood is THE enemy wether they call themselves atheist, Christian, agnostic, gay, straight, male or female. Planned Parenthood and their supporters are all merchants of death. Woe to all of you who support them; including any homosexuals who would support them cause they think it benefits their cause. Woe, woe, woe I say. In my opinion God is already at work in moving pro-life homosexuals to the greater cause of stopping the mutilation of pregnant women. And I am here to tell you that I would stand shoulder to shoulder with any homosexual should they ever join a pro-life protest where I was present with them.
And the above comments about being THE enemy would apply to every Democrat who votes to support a party platform that lends support and funding to the enemy. Woe to anybody who votes for Barack Hussein Obama knowing that he not only supports the enemy but is leader for the enemies agenda. Woe to all Demoncrats who do NOT actively work to stop the Planned Parenthood agenda. You are responsible for the damage you cause to every minor girl who is scarred for life because they were misled by Planned Parenthood. You are THE enemy.
You are a disgusting bunch who feed on the blood of women and children
Merchants of death
“And I am here to tell you that I would stand shoulder to shoulder with any homosexual should they ever join a pro-life protest where I was present with them.”
As would I, hands down.
“And I am here to tell you that I would stand shoulder to shoulder with any homosexual should they ever join a pro-life protest where I was present with them.”
As would I, hands down.
Add me to that list.
Ditto for me truthseeker and Bobby.
Megan, I repeated Jill’s profound question which had nothing to do with quarantining anyone. When you cannot think of anything else to say you lie on others.
I stand for LIFE and I love everyone GLBT, heterosexual, born and unborn. Everyone has a right to be born.
LIFE, what a beautiful choice! “Choose LIFE that you and your seed may live”. Jesus said “I am come to give you LIFE and that more abundantly.” “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes on Him should not perish but shall have everlasting LIFE.
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against spiritual wickedness in high places.” “For the enemy comes to steal, kill and destroy, I am come to give you life”.
Thanks pro-lifers for standing up in this fight for life no matter your race, gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, religion or lack thereof. Truthseeker we spent some time this week praying outside of an abortuary also. God bless you for your commitment and dedication.
There, now we’re getting back on topic: abortion is the taking of a human life, so let’s work to end it and keep that as the focus here.
I’m proud of everyone here who’s praying outside of abortion clinics. Planned Parenthoood truly is a disgusting organization – if all they did was provide free and/or cheap testing and check-ups to women, they’d be a great organization, but they don’t and they’re not.
I spent several hours yesterday taking care of two homeless kids, ages six and two, whose mother is either a meth addict, severely anorexic, or both. After spending two minutes around her, you can tell she’s not a great parent. The kids were not nice, friendly kids, especially the older one, who has some serious issues with boundaries and getting along with people. The two of them frustrated me, tired me out, and sometimes just flat-out irritated me.
However, the fact that they were homeless problem children whose mother has a drug problem didn’t make them bad kids. Ill-behaved kids, but not bad kids. And I’ll give their mother one thing: she didn’t have abortions and make them dead kids. I didn’t wish that they’d never been born or anything along those lines. While the various problems in their lives obvious affected them, they weren’t some faceless statistics – they were kids with distinct personalities, likes, dislikes, strengths and weaknesses. You’d have to be a jerk to look at these kids and say their mother should have aborted them. The kids were not the problem. Their behavior was a problem, but that made me wish that they’d been raised better, not that they’d been aborted.
Not sure how that all relates to this particular post, but that’s what happened yesterday.
Marauder, were you volunteering at a homeless shelter or did you take them off the street?
I agree that it is better to be alive as a homeless orphan then murdered in the womb. The practice of deeming certain mothers and their children to be too burdensome and commiting abortion on them is known as eugenics. And the ones who would have society practice eugenics (ie Planned Parenthood and their founder Margaret Sanger) are a scary kind of cold people.
I kidnapped them from – no, just kidding, it was at a homeless shelter. :)
God bless you Marauder for working with these children.
For those of you who pray I have lots of work I will be doing with teens these next few months promoting life, purity and family please pray for me and our team and for other prolifers it would be great if you will wish us well.
Prolifer L,
May you and your mission give glory to God. May God’s will be known other through all you say and do. And may His sanctifying grace be ever present; especially in your work with teens.
“Father, hallowed be your name, your Kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread and forgive us our sins for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test.”
Luke 11: 2-4
I am traveling today to a prolife prayer event and will be praying for all the prolifers at Jill’s today. My husband and I just started prolife work with teens last week as well so please add us to your prayer lists.
My prayers go out to you Praxedes and your husband. Thanks for the prayers truthseeker. God bless.
Anal sodomy? For a really big surprise, google The First Scandal Adam and Eve. Then click once or twice to get the surprise, which will be…too much work?
What truth is that based on, Robert?