Pro-abort: Aborted fetuses don’t suffer; born babies do
Despite the fact that actual science states that a fetus likely cannot feel pain until after birth, anti-choice legislators push for twenty week bans not to protect children, but to restrict abortion.
Although fetuses cannot feel pain in the sense that we understand it, fetuses who are delivered and then die can feel physical pain. So can mothers who have to watch these very much wanted children die.
~Robin Marty, care2.com, March 8
Mar.08, 2011 11:42 am |
Fetal pain |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So they can’t feel pain,but they can feel pain?
What?
Wow. Those magical vaginas. Not only do they transform blobs into people but they enable the baby to feel pain when moments before he could not!
And they accuse of us of not using science correctly? What neurological development or development of nerves etc… takes place during the birthing process that suddenly enables a child to feel pain? That makes no sense. A child born at 24 weeks is the same as a child of 24 weeks still in the womb. The development is the same, just the location is different.
This looney toon Robin Marty is saying it is not painful for a 20 week old to be pulled into pieces within his mother but that being born and held in his mother’s arms as he passes away is extremely unbearably painful. That defies common sense. I think I’d rather be held by my mother as I die (even if i’m struggling to breathe) then have someone yank my arms and legs from my body and disembowel me. Just my opinion, though.
I guess then their beloved pro-abortion president, Obama, should rethink his stance against helping babies born alive after abortion since Robin Marty agrees with us pro-lifers that babies born alive and left to die can feel pain.
No he difference is that you can either SEE the child feel pain or you DON´T SEE the child feel pain.
So if I don´t see someone feel pain, they don´t feel pain. It all depends on what I can see.
They should put a 3D ultrasound while doing the abortion.
Sydney M LOL! Thats just what I was thinking.
Someone needs to inform Robin Marty that she officially Fails Biology Forever and must now and forever cease any attempts to use science to support any of her arguments.
Would Robyn be willing to subject a child of hers to surgery while still in the womb minus any anaesthetic for the baby? After all, she knows for sure they cannot feel any pain, at least not “in the sense that we understand it.” (What does that even mean?)
Yet, those silly, silly doctors keep doing surgeries in the womb, repairing those tiny little bodies of those tiny little non-people, and they keep on using anaesthesia. Somebody really should tell these idiot doctors about the “actual science” that says those fetuses can’t feel any pain. Such a waste of good drugs when there’s no need.
Of course the pro-aborts can never, ever concede that the baby can feel pain. They will never acknowledge the horrifying reality that the baby can feel it when the abortionist tears their limbs off and stabs them in the head or heart. It’s not a person, so it can’t feel pain. Period. They must stay stubbornly in that fictional world, or else their “choice” becomes sadistic torture.
Here’s some stuff on fetal pain.
The most recent research, suggesting that unborn children cannot feel pain until 24 weeks, was put out by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists – the same group that has decided women should be told that abortion is safer than childbirth.
Does anyone else smell a HUGE pro-abortion agenda here?
Although fetuses cannot feel pain in the sense that we understand it, fetuses who are delivered and then die can feel physical pain.
Physical pain? As opposed to what, ethereal pain? I hope Robin Marty isn’t considering a career in science or philosophy, both of which require far more objectivity and intelligence than displayed here.
I’ve heard the theory that the amniotic fluid keeps the baby in a numb, sleep like state. Which sounds like a crock, but what do I know, I’m not a doctor.
why can’t the baby feel pain? just curious. it was a big deal when I learned that the “baby is not a baby” meme wasn’t just a rhetorical trick- it was based on haeckel’s drawings. that guy is three for three on lies and distortions really messing with the world in truth and reality.
is it b/c they aren’t myelinated? that means, of course, that they aren’t feeling pain at all until they are at least two years of age. And, gosh, we can kill people suffering from muscular dystrophy and multiple sclerosis, right? they are de-myelinating diseases, if I remember correctly. lepers, too, right? this really opens up worlds of killing available–one poorly functioning organ, and you aren’t human.
yes, this is sarcasm. I’m still puzzled, though, why they think infants cannot feel pain. maybe they don’t feel pain b/c they are in a safe, warm,nurturing environment? just a thought.
Ms. Marty may want to read the book by a former PP Director, Abby Johnson, Unplanned. She describes her experience watching an ultrasound-guided abortion which led to her leave the abortion industry. The first chapter is available at LifeNews.com.
http://www.lifenews.com/2011/01/10/first-chapter-of-abby-johnsons-planned-parenthood-book-unplanned/
Wow. Those magical vaginas. Not only do they transform blobs into people but they enable the baby to feel pain when moments before he could not!
LOL!
The nervous system is one of the first things to start developing, even before the heartbeat. Oh, I’m sorry, should I say “heart tones” like the docs at PP?
If a 10 week fetus can move itself AWAY from a curette, that indicates RESPONSE to STIMULI which proves an ACTIVE NERVOUS SYSTEM. Developing yes, responsive yes.
Marty, I hate to break this to you but the moon isn’t made of green cheese, either.
Well Sydney, pro-abortion science IS magic. Remember, science is not ultimate truth. That’s why it’s science.
Actual science as opposed to what? Sort-of science?
Is that akin to your sort-of logic as opposed to actual logic?
As pain is a sensory experience that even the best anesthesiologists still have little understanding of, how can we determine what a human being is feeling based on external sensory devices?
See the problem is Marty – you dehumanize the child so you can kill her. You specify the criteria as to what constitutes a human and expect others to live up to your criteria.
I’m quite certain you would not like to be on the other side of such imposition.
I’ve actually read an article at Abortionfacts.com, not only do they say a fetus can feel pain at 20 weeks but that it can also feel pain as early as 8 weeks. The doctors said this is when the Thalamus develops and the proper sensory and motor nerves come into place. This is all that is needed to feel a sharp object against your body.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_14.asp
This data may be debatable among scientists but it could be proven to be fact one day. This could possibly lead to a revision of fetal pain laws and it just further demonstrates that it is absurd to think a fetus likely can’t feel pain until after birth.
Ninek–I always wondered what the difference between a heartbeat and heart TONE was…the person at PP on that video didn’t exactly explain that to my satisfaction.
Sydney–You’re right. I never thought about how magical my vagina was! Suddenly when my offspring was born they could feel pain and were a human…wonder what I was pregnant with all those months…a kitten?
More verbal acrobatics. What did they do? Read Dr. Seuss’s “Oh Say Can You Say?” and “Fox In Socks” 9 million times until they could twist their tongues and words into unrecognizable shapes? (yes, I’m being sarcastic).
I just don’t get it. I don’t get the rationalization. I don’t get how an egg and a sperm joined together (and conception happened) how that isn’t a human being as opposed to someone who’s out of the womb? What difference is there? What just because one’s not developed enough to LOOK like a human? Or that they had fully functional organs? What about humans that are out of the womb on pace makers or who have prostetics are they still human even though they don’t have fully functional and healthy organs to operate without help?
if the link doesn’t work you can go to abortionfacts.com and search fetal pain
The accepted hypothesis of the means by which pain is perceived states that it requires certain physical structures and operations. These are not formed in fetuses until 20 weeks or more. The general consensus of the scientific community at this time is that only fetuses of this age or older are capable of perceiving pain.
Researchers from the University of California, San Francisco in the Journal of the American Medical Association concluded in a meta-analysis of data from dozens of medical reports and studies that fetuses are unlikely to feel pain until the third trimester of pregnancy.[2][3] There is an emerging consensus among developmental neurobiologists that the establishment of thalamocortical connections (at about 26 weeks) is a critical event with regard to fetal perception of pain.[4] Because pain can involve sensory, emotional and cognitive factors, it may be “impossible to know” when painful experiences are perceived, even if it is known when thalamocortical connections are established.[5]
Sources:
[2]^ a b c Lee SJ, Ralston HJ, Drey EA, Partridge JC, Rosen MA (2005). “Fetal pain: a systematic multidisciplinary review of the evidence”. JAMA 294 (8): 947–54. doi:10.1001/jama.294.8.947. PMID 16118385.
[3]^ a b AP (24 Aug 05). “Study: Fetus feels no pain until third trimester”. MSNBC.
[4]^ Johnson, Martin and Everitt, Barry. Essential reproduction (Blackwell 2000), p. 215. Retrieved 2007-02-21.
[5]^ Johnson, Martin and Everitt, Barry. Essential reproduction (Blackwell 2000): “The multidimensionality of pain perception, involving sensory, emotional, and cognitive factors may in itself be the basis of conscious, painful experience, but it will remain difficult to attribute this to a fetus at any particular developmental age.” Retrieved 2007-02-21.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neonatal_perception
Rachael, please read about that study’s authors, an excerpt [emphasis mine] from FETAL PAIN REPORT
“In today’s Journal of the American Medical Association, five researchers from the University of California, San Francisco, review nearly 2,000 studies on the hotly debated questions. They conclude that legislative proposals to allow fetal pain relief during abortion are not justified by scientific evidence.
But their seven-page article has a weakness: It does not mention that one author is an abortion clinic director, while the lead author – Susan J. Lee, a medical student – once worked for NARAL Pro-Choice America.”
Dr. Sanjay Gupta, pain specialist, says here , “There is no evidence that a fully developed cortex circuitry is required to feel pain. In contrast, we do have evidence from the neonatal experience that this presumption is wrong . It is also possible that an incomplete and dysfunctional circuitry may cause increased pain in fetus [sic] below 29 weeks of age.” I seem to recall one of the regular posters on Jill’s blog worked with preemies and verified they seem to have a hypersensitivity to touch, and for that reason when having to change them, etc., they would try to accomplish as much as possible at one time, to minimize stress.
klynn73,
Good find!
Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not opposed to fetal pain laws, I was just providing some research insight into the debate. But interesting insight into the researchers bias, I wasn’t aware.
So I guess there is no consensus among scientists about when a fetus can feel pain but before legislators debate over the scientific evidence, the question that should be asked is, should we risk allowing fetuses to be hurt? I mean even if the data isn’t conclusive, if fetal pain is a reason not to abort, the legislators should make a decision on the side of caution. Pick a more conservative age to restrict abortions so we don’t risk hurting the baby. If lawmakers just wait for conclusive data about fetal pain a lot of babies will suffer needlessly.
Oh, I know, Rachael. Whenever a study is presented I like to take a look at who’s funding it & who’s involved, if that information can be found out. I remember reading Dr Gupta’s insight on this so-called “consensus”. He took heat for his stance which was very even-handed. I read in another place where he (again) pointed out that what we do know suggests an underdeveloped nervous system could = more pain, not less, and concluded that if it is unknown, we ought to err on the side of caution.
JS, I agree that the central question remains whether we as a society will continue to permit killing vulnerable humans. Ending lives while they’re sedated doesn’t make them any less dead.
Ms. Marty Should watch “The Silent Scream”. That baby was 12 weeks (possibly 10? It’s been so long since I saw it, I can’t remember) What i VIVIDLY remember, though is watching that baby REACT to being touched by the suction machine. Then when it started to “do it’s job”, the baby REACTED to having her tiny arm caught by the suction machine. that baby was well BEFORE 20 weeks. just as ninek said, the nervous system is one of the first things to form in the pre-born baby. Of COURSE they feel pain!
Pro-aborts keep repeating their mantras “It’s not a BABY” and “It doesn’t feel pain” just like the Nazis used to repeat their mantra “orders are orders” as they murdered Jews, Gypsies, the handicapped, etc.
They think if they repeat it enough, they’ll start to believe it and worse..that WE’LL start to believe it.
Didn’t the they use to think that the newborn couldn’t feel pain?
From Care2.com’s comments about Robin Marty’s post about a proposed ‘fetal pain’ law.
Ro S. says Mar 8, 2011 6:06 PM
My doctor told me (when I was 20 weeks) that there were serious issues with my baby. The tech inserted the needle and it hit my baby. How do I know this? Because of the extreme movement that took place as the needle hit the baby. The Amniocentesis sowed chromosome damage. I was told that my baby would probably not make it to birth and that if it did, the baby would have numerous defects and probably would be a “vegetable”. I was told that it was probably best to “terminate” the pregnancy. I knew immediately what I would do..I would never have an abortion and if my baby was a “vegetable” I would love and care for him/her. My baby boy was born and had several major problems. He had four heart defects, misshapened ureter, club feet, and a few other correctable problems. I was now told that he was probably severely mentally deficient and that in all probabilitiy he would not live to be six months old. He is now 33, is a geologist, was a starter on his high school basketball team, graduated from college with a 3.0+ average. He is married, has a child, and is very active in sports and recreation. Does he have health problems? Yes, but he “does it all.” When I look at his beautiful face and self, I know that no one can predict an unborn child’s health and future. I am grateful for my son. He is grateful for live.
I have to give those folks at ‘care2. com’ credit.
They will go to supernatural lengths to keep their heads where the sun does not shine.
It will take a herculean effort extract their craniums from their posteriums.
I repeatedly attempted in as many ways as my mischevious mind could muster to get them to answer the simple question:
What kind of ‘fetus’ Marty Robin was referring to in her inane article.
Finally Ro. S showed up at 6pm Pacific Time and shared her real life experience and in the process answered both the question about the species of the ‘fetus’ and his abilty to feel pain enutero.
You can not un-ring the bell.
But the folks at ‘care.2com’ can insert their craniums a little deeper in a desperate attempt to preserve their bliss.
If these folks wanted to get a group portrait made they would have to schedule an appointment with their proctologist for a colonoscopy and then use photo-shop to merge the individual images.
Who would have thought that merely suggesting that a human fetus can feel pain would have caused the ‘dead babies r us’ so much sufferring.
anti-choice legislators push for twenty week bans not to protect children, but to restrict abortion.
We protect children by restricting abortion.
Chantel
Yes they did and it was a few years ago that they admitted they were wrong. Something most momas could have told them. When I first learned that this was a belief among the medical community I couldn’t even believe it I had to pray about it and then I learned later that they posted there new findings. The accountability factor is very very low when it comes to medical bias. How sad. When my son was receiving chemo a lot of times I’d hear babies crying that had just had surgery. Once when Dan was in the hospital we were in a room with a baby who had had heart surgery. Not long after having had heart surgery his pain was being treated with Tylenol. I just encouraged the mom to have someone else with her when the doctor made his rounds she did and the babies pain was addressed. My prediction on fetal pain is that they will learn or already know that as soon as the nervous system is present the fetus is capable of feeling pain. When I hear a baby cry I pay attention. Once we were across the hall from a baby that cried continually. When the doctor made her rounds excuses were given to the mom. Because I have never learned my place I suggested to the mom that her baby was not getting proper care. So mom’s relative who worked in the hospital was in the bathroom next time the doctor made her rounds and needless to say the baby received the help he was entitled too. I learned a lot taking care of Daniel. One thing I learned is that when people are not doing the right thing they very good at shifting the blame. Something we’re all guilty of but when it’s done to perpetrate evil then prayer is very effective in exposing it.
I have a hypothesis – women who have had abortions lose the ability to reason the longer they are in denial. At some point they cannot discern between rational and irrational statements, and eventually easily observable facts become completely blurred.
I think this would be a worthwhile scientific study.
There’s a lot of evidence out there on the Internet, and even here on this blog by some visitors.
Of course, it would be completely useless to those who suffer most from such a disorder – they simply wouldn’t be able to grasp how out of touch they are with reality.
Chantel
Once when Daniel was hospitalized he was getting chemo. and I’m not sure if it was because of the chemo but he started crying Daniel never cries so when he does you know somethings wrong. He had to wait about 4 hours before his pain was addressed. There excuse they were in a meeting.