Stanek weekend question I: Is feminist response to Rihanna rape/murder video hypocritical?
Singer Rihanna released a music video last week that portrays a woman committing premeditated murder against her rapist. Lyrics here.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEhy-RXkNo0[/youtube]
To be clear, the woman portrayed in the video did not kill her rapist in self defense. She found her attacker after the rape and shot him in broad daylight in a crowded train station. This was premeditated vigilante justice. Then, although she expressed remorse, she decided to flee rather than face the consequences.
I was interested to read what liberal feminists would say about the video. While they decry even so much as “violent rhetoric” of conservatives as provocative, here we had an actual enactment of what might be considered politically correct violence.
Liberal feminists did not surprise. From the Ms. blog, June 3:
As soon as the music video… premiered this week on BET… it created an instant backlash…. However, the outcry is not about depictions of S&M fantasies or a same-sex kiss or even passive acceptance of domestic violence. This time, she is being condemned for promoting murder.
I have to wonder if I’ve seen the same video.
I see a revenge story by a rape survivor, who makes it clear that, no matter what a woman wears or how she dances or if she walks alone at night, rape is wrong and deserves punishment.
From The Crunk Feminist Collective, a blog for “feminists of color”:
The video reinforces a very basic point: the choice to be sexual and sensual on the dance floor should not be read in any way as consent for future sexual activity. For once, the critique of rape is unambiguous. It is wrong; it is not the woman’s fault; and it should be punished….
Somehow, I do not believe the outrage would be comparable if this were a white woman….
From Feminists for Choice (the same Feminists for Choice that wrote “an entreaty to rational pro-life supporters” not to “tak[e] the law into your own hands,” the same Feminists for Choice with the graphic, right, on its home page):
Ultimately, give me a damn break. With crime dramas dominating prime time TV, this isn’t about violence – this is some good ol’ fashioned sexism. Women aren’t supposed to kill the bad guy – they’re supposed to call the nice policeMAN and let him do it.
Women aren’t supposed to show strength like that. And rape victims are supposed to be that – victimized and not empowered enough to strike back at their attacker. This video challenges each of these stereotypes, and that’s what makes these right wing so squeamish and uncomfortable….
Thoughts?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I don’t know that it’s hypocritical so much as blind.
These pro-abortion feminists do not see abortionists as doing violence to other humans. They do see (as do we all, obviously) that a rapist does violence to other humans. Therefore, they feel the vigilante revenge killing portrayed is justified, but violence against an abortionist would not be. They view abortionists as people who “give freedom” and rapists as people who take it.
In the pro-life view, neither violence against an abortionist or a rapist (the latter except in self-defense) is justified.
It all kinda makes my head hurt . I mean really if i try to align my thinking to theirs . So as to understand where they are coming from . my head feels as if it will explode .
Is feminist response to Rihanna rape/murder video hypocritical?
Hysterically hypocritical.
We have one of the best justice systems in the world, but it does not alway deliver justice and it seldom delivers it speedily.
Assuming the woman in the video knew the identity of the man who raped her, and she made a calculated decision that even if he were convicted of the crime it might take years and he might only serve a few years in prison and eventually, he would be released to rape or kill her and/or someone else.
She decides she is willing to risk her freedom to protect her life and the lives of others. She kills the rapist and flees, knowing that it is probable that she will be apprehended.
The state has an obligation to pursue her, apprehend her and prosecute her according to the ‘facts and the law’.
When she goes to trial she makes an affirmative defense that the rapist was a continuing threat to her safety and life and others and by killing him she was protecting herself and others. She hopes a jury of her peers will be lenient and perhaps even invoke jury nullification and aquit her in spite of the facts and the law. [Jury nullification seldom frees the quilty party.]
Justice is not always found in the ‘facts and the law’.
There are those who would argue that such a scenario would lead to mayhem and vigilantisim. I could argue it might have just the opposit effect.
How many sane men or women would risk their life and their liberty to do what this woman had done? Not many.
How many criminals would have second thoughts before they preyed on the seemingly weak victims. A few, perhaps many. But even if just one murderer/rapist were deterred would it be worth it?
The dead murderer/rapist would certainly be deterred.
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I wrote my take based soley on the description of the video.
After having viewed the video, I would NOT vote to acquit to the woman. I would vote guilty of some degree of murder.
She had a relationship with the rapist. She was inviting and welcoming his advances. She was reciprocating.
It does not change the fact that he disregarded her ‘NO!’, however she communicated it, and raped her. He is guilty of rape.
Though she was the victim, she is NOT innocent. She was an accomplice in her own rape before the fact.
Killing him was not an act of self defence or justice. It was an act of premeditated revenge.
Makes me want to shoot both of them for being terminally stupid.
Both of them were fools who floundered in their self made folly.
And to answer the feminista’s question: Pigmentation does not enter into the equation.
The ‘book’ does not call stupidity a sin, but it does frown upon it.
As a husband and father of four daughtes and a son I would hope that I have successfully instructed them to exercise wisdom and judgement. I have often cautioned them to pay attention, be observent, to be aware of their surroundings and to have fun and be safe. They are not mutually exclusive.
The first half of the video was repleat with examples not walking circumspectly.
Remember the movie, “I Spit..on Your Grave”? It’s about a woman who is raped by some men and then gets revenge on them and kills them. Last year, I listened to the director’s commentary. It completely changed my view of the film. I will never look at it the same way again. In real life, they were having an ordinary day, and at a park, he saw a naked, injured woman staggering about. He and his friend lent her a coat, put her in the car and drove her to the police. The ‘interview’ at the police station horrified him. The woman needed medical attention but the police kept delaying and generally treating her badly. So, the inspiration for the revenge story was how helpless they all felt about justice, and what if a woman got revenge instead of going to the police.
The main character was white, not that that made any difference. Roger Ebert almost single-handedly destroyed the movie and damaged the careers of everyone involved. Because he thought it was a movie that glorified rape.
Jill quotes one blogger as writing: Somehow, I do not believe the outrage would be comparable if this were a white woman….
It would appear from what the so called feminists have written about Rihanna’s video that they, as usual, have no clue whatsoever.
Vigilante justice makes everyone uncomfortable, it’s controversial. It’s controversial if a rape victim gets revenge, and it’s controversial when it’s a man getting revenge a la Clint Eastwood’s characters, and Charles Bronson’s characters. Sure, their revenge movies were successful, but feminists seem to have amnesia about the controversy that often surrounds revenge stories and the violence in films and media.
Their whole way of thinking is flawed and ridiculous. I used to be a feminist. Then I recovered from the illness.
Films and videos are fiction. But real life is not. You can’t decry violence at the same time you say it’s ok to be a vigilante if you’re on the correct political side, and it’s ok to kill pre-born children. You say ‘peace peace’ but there is no peace. Wake up, feminists, and stop being such dense hypocrites.
“Though she was the victim, she is NOT innocent. She was an accomplice in her own rape before the fact.
Killing him was not an act of self defence or justice. It was an act of premeditated revenge.
Makes me want to shoot both of them for being terminally stupid.
Both of them were fools who floundered in their self made folly.”
I am going to pretend I don’t notice your approval of vigilante violence.
But are you seriously blaming and threatening a woman and calling her an accomplice in her own rape? What in the world is wrong with you? If someone got all cozy with me and changed her mind, I certainly have enough self-control not to RAPE her. It is people like you who are responsible for a lot of pain and suffering in victims of date and acquaintance rape. Didn’t want to get raped? Shouldn’t have kissed him!
It is NEVER the victim’s fault. You need to learn to live in the real world and get some compassion.
too bad the men did not bring her to the hospital first and then the police would get involved.
although this was a music video – she should have not taken justice into her own hands. He would have been apprehended, according to the story line, since it’s filmed that he asked where that woman lived, even after eventually rebuffing his advances on the dance floor.
Violence is not the answer – in film or real life. If you are defending yourself, do the least harm to ensure your safety. But to kill in cold blood, even for revenge, is no answer. Justice must be allowed to play out in some shape or form.
Love wins. Even if the answer is not what we want or hope for. Doing the right thing is always the right thing. Violence for revenge solves nothing, even in art/film/fiction/real life.
Militant feminists DO have a flavor for murder so long as it’s justified in their own minds.
As a rape survivor, I am APPALLED that anyone would claim a woman was complicit in her own rape. That is DISGUSTING. I had on a low-cut blouse and kissed the guy….did I give him permission to rape me? No I didn’t. That is a disgusting accusation.
However, I have forgiven him. Yes, it was horrible, but Rihanna’s video is just as disgusting. Premeditated murder is NEVER JUSTIFIED. EVER.
Ninek, while I agree with your main point about the inherent hypocrisy of mainline feminism, I felt compelled to write to disagree with one item in your comment.
Namely, the use of the term “vigilante justice”.
I contend that this term is nearly always an oxymoron*, especially when referring to vengeful murder, and thus has no place in logical language outside of quotation marks.
Fear not; if your writing did not comprise logical language, I would not have seen the use of the term to be inappropriate, and thus would have said nothing.
*While I have a sneaking suspicion that there is some situation in which “vigilante justice” is an accurate depiction of reality, I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
Sometimes, violence is the answer. I support Rihanna!
This video is confusing in the way it portrays Rihanna’s role. It depicts a different culture than American, and behavior/body language/dress could be interpreted differently there. I hope that doesn’t get read the wrong way..what I mean is to me it looks like she could be a prostitute, and that the guy was not capable or willing to pay for her services. This guy was not born a rapist, however it appears in this video that he was so overcome for his desire to “have” this woman, that he forced himself on her. As depicted in this video, she dry humps him, kisses him, exchanges passion towards him, and then suddenly pushes him away. Wow, confusing. She used her sexuality to control him for a few seconds, then just shoved him off. Was it because he didn’t have money? I don’t know, the video isn’t really clear on that, but it does appear that for a few seconds she was ready to have sex with him. Why have we come to treat each other this way? To give pieces of ourselves away to whomever we rub bodies with on the dance floor?
There is nothing depicted in this video that is OK. No, rape is never OK (and there are many forms of rape,) but neither is dressing or acting like that. It is compromising in so many ways. Then there is a very graphic murder. What he did was wrong, but he didn’t deserve that. Two wrongs don’t make a right. I can’t believe anyone would put together a song & video like this all for the sake of ratings and money. Talk about selling your soul…who in their right mind would subject children, teens and young adults to this? How DANGEROUS! I am so glad that our home cut the tv cable a long time ago.
I hope that no one thinks I am insenstive to the subject of rape. I have been a victim of child molestation and date rape two times. With my experiecnes, I still see nothing about this video that brings glory or justice.
Ya’ll do remember that Rhianna was the victim of domestic violence right? Her experience may well of contributed to the “story line” of this video. Maybe all she was doing was exploring her own feelings regarding her experience. Maybe it was politically motivated by these “slut walks”. I don’t know, but I’d like to doubt that she’s actually out to make a pro-vigilante justice statement, or pro-vengeful murder statement. Ya know?
As a victim of date rape looking back at my experience, and as a woman, I look at this “she asked for it” (I don’t like that phrase, it’s too cold and exclusive of the rapists responsibility) thing logically. I dressed myself a certain way to attract attention to what I thought were my “best features” and I interacted with men a certain way to increase their “interest”. I did that. That’s where I was wrong and “playing with fire”. My abuser made the choice to ignore my “No.” and do as he pleased. That’s where he went wrong. So yes, both in the wrong. BOTH.
Does a fire dancer ask to be burned? Does a lion tamer ask to be mauled? No, but taking part in certain activities does carry certain risks, if you do not understand/accept those risks then you shouldn’t be taking part. Did Roy blame the tiger or did he take responsibility, understanding the inherent risks of his CHOICE of lifestyle? He said, “Save the cat.” Of course this is all assuming the people are taking proper safety precautions and not bopping the animals on the nose (sorry Roy).
Now MEN, unlike animals and fire, have the ability to REASON. They are NOT animals as much as pro-choice evolutionist atheists would like us to believe. They make CHOICES. So even if a fool-hardy woman “bops him on the nose” with a kiss or grind-fest, the man has the ability and responsibility to back off at the word “No.” And the woman, also being human with the ability to reason, should be able to gauge the risks and predict the effect of doing something so provocative. But then feminists have this cause/effect block in their head so…..
See where both have EQUAL responsibility? Not playing with fire reduces your chances of being burned. Staying out of the lion pit at the zoo reduces my chances of being mauled. Dressing appropriately and giving men clear boundaries with their behavior has seriously reduced my chances of being raped again. I’m doing my part. Of course if I make the choice to stray from the safety zone I would take responsibility in my part for getting injured. These feminists probably all agree with the suit the lady had against McD’s when she carelessly spilled hot coffee on herself. So what if she bought the coffee? So what if she placed it precariously between her thighs! It’s Mc.D’s fault for “misinterpreting” her order for coffee and giving her coffee!
God gave us ladies these awesome hot bodies, we should handle them carefully and with respect!
“As a rape survivor, I am APPALLED that anyone would claim a woman was complicit in her own rape. That is DISGUSTING. I had on a low-cut blouse and kissed the guy….did I give him permission to rape me? No I didn’t. That is a disgusting accusation.”
No kidding. I was a sexually abused child and adolescent, was I culpable for the times I never turned in the abuser, for not fighting? How much of it was my “fault”? It is a disgusting slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? ”Oh, you didn’t do anything wrong, because you were dressed like a nun and screamed for help. However, this woman did do wrong, because she was dressed more revealing and shut down instead of fighting.” It’s ridiculous. As a man I can say that there is nothing a man, woman, or child could possibly do to make me rape them.
“See where both have EQUAL responsibility? Not playing with fire reduces your chances of being burned. Staying out of the lion pit at the zoo reduces my chances of being mauled. Dressing appropriately and giving men clear boundaries with their behavior has seriously reduced my chances of being raped again. I’m doing my part. Of course if I make the choice to stray from the safety zone I would take responsibility in my part for getting injured.”
No. A man who rapes or otherwise sexually abuses a person has something intrinsically wrong with him. Us normal men would never ever dream of abusing a woman, no matter how “slutty” she was acting towards us. Not the victims fault! At all!
JackBorsch says: June 11, 2011 at 1:35 pm
“Though she was the victim, she is NOT innocent. She was an accomplice in her own rape before the fact.”
If someone got all cozy with me and changed her mind, I certainly have enough self-control not to RAPE her.
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JB,
It’s too bad every man is not like you.
Unfortunately they all do not exercise self control and/or they just don’t have any concern for the female.
I suggest you watch the video a few more times.
‘Don’t take a strange dog by the ears and then complain when he/she bites you.’
You will notice that I did not excuse the rapist. If he had raped my daughter I would want to kill him myself.
But if you watch the video you will also notice the woman knowingly and willingly placed herself in harms way.
Choices have consequences and not all of them can be forseen.
Wisdom would shout “Don’t go there!” “Don’t do that!” But wisdom is lost on fools.
I think you missed the point when cherrypicking the articles for excerpts that fit your agenda:
“I get that the family values crowd has their panties all in bunches – they called the song “an inexcusable, shock-only, shoot-and-kill theme song.” I don’t know if I would go that far, but we all know that violence is a wrong, terrible thing and it’s bad to shoot people. But it does raise an interesting point – do some young women feel like that’s the only way for them to get justice? Especially in countries like Barbados, where Rihanna is from? What exactly is it that gives a rape victim faith in the justice system?”
The Culture of Death thinks that killing is a suitable solution to many sorts of problems.
It is not surprising that those who support the killing of children for convenience would also support a woman’s stalking and killing her rapist in vigilante justice. They imagine that the woman-victim will feel better after she kills him.
Obviously the video is over-the-top, even hyperbolic because it’s illustrating the point that rape survivors, especially women of color, face being slut-shamed when they speak out against their victimization. The garbage posts here once again reinforce the idea that women should be responsible for preventing their own rapes. ‘Don’t take a strange dog by the ears and then complain when he/she bites you.’ The men I know aren’t dogs. I have full faith in their ability to treat women with human decency, even if they’re jilted or scorned sexually. More than you can say, I guess–might want to make some more prochoice friends there yorbroken.
JackBorsch says: June 11, 2011 at 5:29 pm
“A man who rapes or otherwise sexually abuses a person has something intrinsically wrong with him. Us normal men would never ever dream of abusing a woman, no matter how “slutty” she was acting towards us.”
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JB,
Again, there are men out there who, unlike you, do not view women with respect and honor.
Unless women have some sort of psychic ability to identify these creeps, they should exercise some wisdom to ensure they don’t place themselves in harms way.
But the lady portrayed in the video went way beyond just being careless about her surroundings. Her misfortune was to cross paths with a cretan. Police will tell you criminals prefer ‘soft targets’ people who are fat dumb and happy and oblivious to their surroundings.
People who demonstrate awareness, preparedness and the willingness and ability to resist are ‘hard targets’ and criminals tend to shy away from them.
Which image was the young lady projecting leading up to the rape?
I remember Bill Cosby doing a routine where he took karate lessons and learned some basic moves then went trolling for an opportunity to demonstrate his prowess. He went walking thru a bad part of town with twenty dollar bills poking out of his pockets wearing flashy jewelery. Lo and behold he got mugged in a dark alley. A voice in the darkness demanded his valuables. Cosby spun around in a copy right designed to catch the crook upside the head with a karate chop, but there was nothing there but air.
The midget then demanded that he give up the goods before he blew Cosby’s knee cap off.
You get the picture. The rapist was guilty of rape. The victim was guilty of poor judgement/foolishness and then she compounded it by an act of violent revenge.
It’s was a very cleverly portrayed fantasy/illusion designed to provoke just this kind of debate. I doubt Rihana intended to communicate to ladies everywhere that there all at the mercy of their fate and there is nothing they can do to improve their fortune.
I didn’t mean to end his life
I know it wasn’t right
I can’t even sleep at night
Can’t get it off my mind
I need to get out of sight
Before I end up behind bars
What started out as a simple altercation
Turned into a real sticky situation
Me just thinking on the time that I’m facing
Makes me wanna cry
‘Cause I didn’t mean to hurt him
Could’ve been somebody’s son
And I took his heart when
I pulled out that gun
It’s a 22, I call her Peggy Sue
When she fits right down in my shoes
What do you expect me to do
If you’re playing me for a fool
I will lose my cool
And reach for my fire arm
I didn’t mean to lay him down
But it’s too late to turn back now
Don’t know what I was thinking
Now he’s no longer living
So I’m ’bout to leave town
‘Cause I didn’t mean to hurt him
Could’ve been somebody’s son
And I took his heart when
I pulled out that gun
Look, I never thought I’d do it
Never thought I’d do it
Never thought I’d do it, oh gosh
What ever happened to me
Ever happened to me, ever happened to me
Why did I pull the trigger
Pull the trigger, pull the trigger, boom
And end a nigga, end a niggas life so soon
When me pull the trigger, pull the trigger, pull it ‘pon you
Somebody tell me what I’m gonna, what I’m gonna do
‘Cause now I am a criminal, criminal, criminal
Oh lord have mercy now I am a criminal
Man down
Tell the judge please give me minimal
Run out of town,
None of them can see me now, see me now
“It is not surprising that those who support the killing of children for convenience would also support a woman’s stalking and killing her rapist in vigilante justice.”
Supporting a music video’s moral agenda vs. simply looking critically at what it says are two different things. The idea of vigilante justice is barbaric to me, but the video makes me wonder why some women might feel like they don’t have recourse to other avenues of justice. But I think I get it–when you’re blamed for being too sensual or foolhardy or whatever and told that you should be thrilled at the chance of offering your womb up to a baby conceived in an incredible act of violence, you might get a little desparate.
Megan says: June 11, 2011 at 5:58 pm
1. The garbage posts here once again reinforce the idea that women should be responsible for preventing their own rapes.
2. ‘Don’t take a strange dog by the ears and then complain when he/she bites you.’ The men I know aren’t dogs. I have full faith in their ability to treat women with human decency, even if they’re jilted or scorned sexually.
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Megan,
1. Just who does bear the primary responsibility for preventing a woman’s rape?
It can’t be anybody else but the woman.
The police act as a deterrent before the fact then as an enforcer after the fact. In the video, as in real life, the police did not offer any more protection to the rapist than they did to the murdereress.
2. Well Megan, there are some men out there whom you do not know who will not treat you with human decency. I suggest you purchase a ‘Peggy Sue’ and keep her in your shoe just in case you have the misfortune to encounter one of the beasts. They won’t repsect you, but they will fear your gun.
yor bro ken,
You realize that the vast majority of sexual assaults and rapes are committed on women and children by people they are close to, don’t you? Relatives, close family friends, neighbors, boyfriends, husbands, and the like. So, are you going to sit and tell a young woman who was raped by her dad’s friend, whom she grew up with and was affectionate to, that she should have been “more prudent?” What if a wife does not want to have sex, and her husband decides that they are going to anyway?
Or to make it more clear to you, my father abused me as a child and adolescent. At what point did I pass from abused victim to culpable for not defending myself? Is there some cut off point where I was now responsible, and any abuse perpetrated against me at that point was my fault?
I certainly agree that women should be encouraged and helped to make good decisions. My daughter will certainly be taught self-defense, and taught how to avoid high risk situations. However, if she has to go to a bad part of town for whatever reason, it isn’t her FAULT if something happened to her. I’m an adult male, and I don’t go into some areas of Orlando. If I did, however, it would not be my fault if I got mugged or beaten. It would be the fault of the person who did it.
This victim-blaming mentality is sickening to me. So, how much less of a sentence should a man get if the victim “foolishly” put herself in a compromising place? Do her actions diminish his culpability? I really don’t think so.
JB,
That was not the scenario portrayed in the video. I do not believe for one minute that you seriously believe I was equating the actions of a grown woman with the helplessness of a child.
The strong have a responsibilty to protect the weak, not exploit them.
I was never sexually abused as child, but I sufferred other abuse. I do not consciously blame myself for what happened, but there may be some emotional coping mechanism still in play that helped me to survive at the time.
We are all unique and comples individuals and we react/respond in our own unique way to wounds that we have sufferred. It is double difficult when it is the ones we love and the ones who love us that have wounded us. It distorts and perverts who we are and it is a difficult wound to heal.
JB,
At the risk of sounding like a feminista I would say you are conflating two separate things.
The rapist is responsible for what he did no matter. Enforce the law equally. To do otherwise is an injustice.
The rape victim has committed no crime for which to be punished, unless he/she tracks the rapist down after the fact and kills him/her. I am not saying the victim of the rape couldn’t make a case for self defense after the fact but it would be a hard sell to make to a jury.
The best thing is to use the inherent wisdom you possess and avoid situations that place you at risk and get a ‘Peggy Sue’.
Megan says:June 11, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Megan,
It is not always wrong to shoot people. If that were true the police would not carry guns.
Sometimes circumstances conspire against you and you have to make a choice to defend yourself or to be a victim.
There may be a situation where wisdom would dictate that you submit and absorb the abuse because to resist would mean certain death to you or your loved ones. You might just have to wait for another day to obtain justice.
There will be situations were you have no realistic expectation of survival but you must resist and die trying rather than just give up and resign yourself to your fate.
yor bro ken,
No, I wasn’t trying to imply you were conflating the two situations. I was using an example of my childhood abuse to show you how painful hearing stuff like that is. Victims of sexual assault, male or female, have a ton of guilt and shame from the abuse or rape. It is extremely painful and damaging to hear things like “she/he should have protected herself better” or “dressing like that is just asking for trouble.” Most rapes are not committed by strangers, as I mentioned before. It is often someone you know and trust. This compounds the shame as well.
“The best thing is to use the inherent wisdom you possess and avoid situations that place you at risk.”
I agree with that, and I plan on teaching my daughter how to protect herself. Blaming statements after the fact, however, do absolutely no good whatsoever. They don’t help the victim, and they help people mentally excuse the rapist from some of his culpability.
Realistically, people sometimes either don’t know any better or put themselves into a situation in which they shouldn’t. That doesn’t give anyone else the right to violate them in any way, or excuse the perpetrator’s actions. Should the victim/survivor/target have been more careful/more sensible? Absolutely. But I will never blame a victim for being a victim–there is a difference between saying that someone was stupid, and saying that someone is at fault for being victimized. There is never an excuse.
We should all be able to live in world in which we don’t constantly have to look over our shoulders, wondering if we’re about to raped, mugged, assaulted, ect. Focusing on victim’s actions to the extent where they are used to excuse the perpetrator’s sends the message that the victim, not the perpetrator, is to blame for what happened. We don’t live in that perfect world, and, as long as we don’t, people should take certain precautions to defend themselves. Focusing on those precautions while ignoring the fact that the precautions themselves wouldn’t be necessary if, as in the case of rape, there wasn’t a culture in which it was seen as, in certain situations, mildly acceptable, or at least partially the woman’s fault.
There’s usually a several month backlog for rape kits. How seriously can a society take a crime if they don’t even bother processing the evidence for months, effectively enabling serial offenders to keep offending? In court, the victim’s behavior, dress, and sexual history are all routinely used by the defense. Why are any of those relevant? How does clothing, or the number of partners that someone consents to sleep with, have any bearing on whether or not someone has been violated? I don’t care if a woman is walking around a frat party naked and stoned out of her mind–there is never an excuse, and she never asked to be raped.
Food for thought–murders are typically given the harshest prison sentences, both in reflection of the severity of the crime and in order to defend society. Apart from serial murderers, the recidivism rate for your typical murderer is actually very low. Rapists, even serial rapists, are typically given much shorter sentences, with rapists frequently serving as little as five-and-a-half years before they are paroled. Rapists, on the other hand, have a much higher recidivism rate than murders. People arrested for sex crimes are four times more likely than other people who have been in prison to re-offend. According to one study, fully 43% of sex offenders were re-arrested for a variety of crimes. Add this to the fact that many sex offenders have a lengthy history of committing various forms sexual abuse before they are caught and convicted, the justice system and the police actually do an appallingly poor job of defending society. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/08/28/recidivism-rates-for-sex-offenders/ How seriously can society really view a crime with these kinds of statistics, also bearing in mind that these are the cases that are actually prosecuted?
“We should all be able to live in world in which we don’t constantly have to look over our shoulders, wondering if we’re about to raped, mugged, assaulted, ect. Focusing on victim’s actions to the extent where they are used to excuse the perpetrator’s sends the message that the victim, not the perpetrator, is to blame for what happened.”
That is precisely what I dislike about this message of culpability that people send, wittingly or not, when they say victims of assault were “stupid” or “foolish”. I think most people like to think that there is no way it could happen to them, their daughters, wives, children, or others they care about. It makes people feel better if they can find some way that the victim “caused” it or put her/himself at risk. And rape and sexual abuse is severely underprosecuted in this country, I agree with that.
Jack, Thank you for your wise words about rape. I was raped twice by men I thought I knew well. I am shocked and shaking right now from some of the comments made here and you are right, it is very painful.
I didn’t talk about and buried these rapes for years and when I got into counseling I was flooded with emotions, mostly shame. I kept repeating in counseling how stupid I was for being alone with these guys, drinking alcohol, curling my hair and wearing makeup, singing, having a good time. Thank goodness she reassured me and said, “Not stupid, just naive. You would never do something like this to anyone, so it was beyond your imagination that others would do it to you.” You’d think I would have exercised wisdom after the first rape so that it would never happen again but I guess some of us are more wise than others.
She had a relationship with the rapist. She was inviting and welcoming his advances. She was reciprocating.
Scream! So what? Maybe they had been out together earlier or had previously dated or grew up together. She walked away and made it clear she would go no further. He asked someone else what way she went and followed her!
As a husband and father of four daughtes and a son I would hope that I have successfully instructed them to exercise wisdom and judgement. I have often cautioned them to pay attention, be observent, to be aware of their surroundings and to have fun and be safe. They are not mutually exclusive.
I was not a child when I was raped, but was a young, naive adult who was sheltered growing up. Not everyone has a parent who teaches them about these things because they were never exposed to such behavior either.
1. Just who does bear the primary responsibility for preventing a woman’s rape?
All of us.
“We should all be able to live in world in which we don’t constantly have to look over our shoulders, wondering if we’re about to raped, mugged, assaulted, ect.”
Like you said, we should but we don’t. Is it stupid not to take precautions. Yes. But the fact is we will all be stupid at some point in our lives. It’s just most of us are lucky enough not to become victims during that moment. It’s like the parents whose kids are snatched when they’re not looking. Yes, you can’t take your eyes off your children for even a second. But no one lives up to that standard. The parents were “stupid” in a way that everyone is “stupid”. The fact that they were victimized is unlucky. But we can’t stop pushing the message to always be a vigilant, and cautious as you can.
“There’s usually a several month backlog for rape kits. How seriously can a society take a crime if they don’t even bother processing the evidence for months, effectively enabling serial offenders to keep offending?”
There is a huge backlog in the justice system in general. That’s not unique to rape, tough obviously it’s worth addressing.
“In court, the victim’s behavior, dress, and sexual history are all routinely used by the defense. Why are any of those relevant? How does clothing, or the number of partners that someone consents to sleep with, have any bearing on whether or not someone has been violated?”
Typically these are not actually admissable unless they are admitted under exceptions (which admittedly can be common). The fact of the matter is, though, that there are men falsely accused of rape. And lack of consent is an element of the crime, so men have to be allowed to mount a defense that the sex was consensual etc. The justice system tries to strike a balance with the rules of evidence, but in practice it’s not always perfect. Personally when I see these high profile cases of false accusations of rape, I think those women should be locked up for a long time b/c they make it that much harder to get justice for actual victims. Rape is always he said/she said – some of the most difficult cases to prosecute.
Enigma,
Thank you for your comment.
“Jack, Thank you for your wise words about rape. I was raped twice by men I thought I knew well. I am shocked and shaking right now from some of the comments made here and you are right, it is very painful.”
I’m very sorry about what you went through, and sorry that you read these comments and were hurt again. People don’t seem to realize how damaging sexual abuse and assault is, and what a struggle it is to deal with it. Stuff like this can set you back months of healing.
” I didn’t talk about and buried these rapes for years and when I got into counseling I was flooded with emotions, mostly shame. I kept repeating in counseling how stupid I was for being alone with these guys, drinking alcohol, curling my hair and wearing makeup, singing, having a good time. Thank goodness she reassured me and said, “Not stupid, just naive. You would never do something like this to anyone, so it was beyond your imagination that others would do it to you.” You’d think I would have exercised wisdom after the first rape so that it would never happen again but I guess some of us are more wise than others.”
You weren’t at fault for the first assault, and you were no more responsible for the second one. You should be able to hang out with a male friend or acquaintance without fear of being abused. It has nothing to do with how wise you were, it has to do with what was wrong with those men. I have a ton of guilt from being abused, especially because it happened all the way up until I was sixteen, when I “should have” been able to defend myself. People saying stupid stuff like this makes it even harder to heal.
“Scream! So what? Maybe they had been out together earlier or had previously dated or grew up together. She walked away and made it clear she would go no further. He asked someone else what way she went and followed her! ”
No kidding! Talk about misogyny. A woman is required to have sex with any guy that is attracted to her? Grrrrr…
“I was not a child when I was raped, but was a young, naive adult who was sheltered growing up. Not everyone has a parent who teaches them about these things because they were never exposed to such behavior either.”
It doesn’t matter what age or how experienced you were. It might have made you more vulnerable, but it certainly didn’t cause it. Predators will find someone to prey on. It infuriates me that people refuse to see this.
” Just who does bear the primary responsibility for preventing a woman’s rape?
All of us.”
Amen. We all need to
“The fact that they were victimized is unlucky. But we can’t stop pushing the message to always be a vigilant, and cautious as you can.”
This is what I am saying. How, exactly, will being vigilant help you when someone you know and trust abuses you, like in the majority of sex crimes? “Stranger danger” plays well in the media, but it isn’t the reality of sexual abuse and rape. We need real education about sex crimes, not scare tactics.
See here for statistics on rapists. http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-offenders 2/3 of rapists are known to their victim, 38% are a friend or acquaintance, 28% are intimates (boyfriend, husband, etc). And this isn’t even counting child molestation, where the chances of being abused by a relative or family friend is even higher. 4 out of 10 reported rapes happen in a woman’s own home. The stranger is not the one that people generally have to worry about.
praxedes
I know I was kind of surprised by some of the comments too. Twice I was almost the victim of rape and once I was sodomized by someone I was in a relationship with and didn’t even realize that constituted rape. Once when I was in a hospital with my son he was in a wheelchair at the time an individual who worked there came to tell us bye in doing so he placed his hand under my arm on the right part of my breast. This happened about six years ago. After I reported it I was told that wasn’t part of my breast by someone who worked at the hospital someone I thought was a friend and even after reporting it to the authorities nothing was done. Now when I walk anywhere I try not to be too untrusting but if a man walks too close to me and continues to do so I purpose in my mind to do some serious hurt if he crosses the line. Of course I wouldn’t shoot anyone that didn’t have a weapon but if I had a tazer and/or mace and was groped or touched inappropriately I would use it. What I found out when this happened was that even if he would have been convicted there would have been very little consequences. What he done really hurt but I think what compounded the hurt was the way the hospital handled or rather didn’t handle the situation.
Jack Borsch – I absolutely agree and I didn’t mean vigilance in a narrow stranger danger sense. But part of being vigilant IS being educated to the familiar nature of most sex abuse. So I think education about sex crimes is very important, like you said. Also, part of cautiousness would probably include avoiding getting yourself into any sort of state of inebriation that makes you less aware of what’s happening. At least in college, alcohol played a huge factor in leaving several of my friends vulnerable to date rape. They of course didn’t ask for it or deserve it. And getting drunk occasionally happens to most people, but they were unlucky. That’s all I’m saying about the vigilance and cautiousness.
“I absolutely agree and I didn’t mean vigilance in a narrow stranger danger sense. But part of being vigilant IS being educated to the familiar nature of most sex abuse. So I think education about sex crimes is very important, like you said.”
I agree, sorry if you felt like I misrepresented you. I didn’t think you meant it in that narrow of a sense, really, I just wanted to make it clear that the majority of sex crimes are not “stranger” crimes. People really need to be educated on the real nature of abuse. Most people are absolutely terrified of strangers snatching their children, and will put the fear of God into kids about that, but fail to educate their children about “bad touches” and the like. Kids need to know they can come forward if anything even makes them uncomfortable, no matter who does it. Kids are often not informed that they have rights if someone is being inappropriate or hurting them, especially if it is a close family member or friend. I certainly wasn’t told this. Women also aren’t given the support they need to come forward, and are often terrified about being blamed for the assault or abuse, especially in cases where the perpetrator is known to them. It is a real failing and causes real harm. I see this lack of information everywhere, so I get very zealous about correcting it
“Also, part of cautiousness would probably include avoiding getting yourself into any sort of state of inebriation that makes you less aware of what’s happening. At least in college, alcohol played a huge factor in leaving several of my friends vulnerable to date rape. They of course didn’t ask for it or deserve it. And getting drunk occasionally happens to most people, but they were unlucky. That’s all I’m saying about the vigilance and cautiousness.”
Well, I agree to an extent. Everyone needs to be careful around alcohol, as a lot of crime and heartache happen when inhibitions are lowered through inebriation. I would certainly caution my daughter against all the dangers of alcohol, sexual assault isn’t the only thing that could happen to her. I don’t think there is anything wrong with knocking a few drinks back, but I wouldn’t want either of my kids to get drunk to the point of not being able to defend themselves or make good decisions. But, sometimes people get drunk, and those women who are assaulted are no more culpable than a woman assaulted in her own home. We need to do something in this country about the proliferation of sexual assault in general. Early intervention for high risk juvenile offenders (shown to be pretty effective, almost no one just suddenly becomes a rapist in their twenties or thirties. There are warning signs), and education of society are good starting points.
I think we have gotten a little off the subject of the scenes that were portrayed in this particular video. I think that we can all agree that Rihanna is a very beautiful and very talented young woman who is being preyed upon and exploited by the music industry, mainstream media, magazines, etc. Basically all feminist organizations, etc. The message is wrong, and even dangerous for many reasons. Most likely, she didn’t even write this song, and really didn’t know what to expect when she showed up on the set to shoot this video that day. She is “the talent.” There are many, many more people who share in the responsibility for this horrible song & video. Could you imagine her talent being used to glorify God? We should all commit to praying for her. That is what our real responsibility and reaction to things like this should be.
I’ve always been uncomfortable with the feminist attitude that rape is violence, and who can know the cause of it? Since boys were two the body part they used for violence was their fist.
I don’t believe you can call rape violence with a sexual overtone. It’s forced, thus violent sex. As robbery is the forced taking of somone’s property.
It’s not a subtle difference. We have to face the consequences of this “if it feels good do it” mentality. There’s plenty of blame to go around.
Let’s stop stripping the sacredness out of sex, merely making it the top of the list of favorite activities. Keep it as the special bond between mates for life.
And yes, while it’s almost always not the victim’s fault, there are ways not to make yourself easy prey, like Lady Gaga walking through a lion’s cage with her meat dress.
Being “empowered enough to strike back against your attacker” – with premeditation – is “empowering” yourself to a prison term. It’s allowing a rapist to screw up your life even more than he already did.
Hans: It’s “almost always” not the victim’s fault? Are you saying there are circumstances in which people get raped and it IS their fault?!
To the main question, I agree with Kel. The attitude of the quoted writers is hypocritical in actual fact, but not from their point of view.
As to what some of the commenters are saying here about rape victims, first off, Ken, your comments specifically, disgust me. You have always gotten on my nerves with what you’ve said, but these comments are utterly beyond the pale and you should be utterly ashamed of yourself for even thinking it was okay to say what you did.
To everyone else, story time. I have never been raped. One of my very close friends was. By someone we both knew, who was dating another friend. This man was a friend of mine. I trusted him. We spent time together. We spoke. I took him to a clinic while he was sick once. I had every reason to believe he was trustworthy and honest. Neither I, nor my friend, dress like “sluts,” nor did we have any reason to think he would take advantage of the trust we placed in him. But he did. He raped her. I found out later that I was with him the next day. Why he left me alone, I will never ever know, but he had opportunity. He even had a friend who, I have reason to believe, would have helped him to overpower me if he wished. The risk was there. Maybe more for me than my friend. But I was spared and she was not.
So tell me, all you people, so “helpfully” explaining how we can make ourselves safer: what should we have done differently? This was a friend, remember. He didn’t snatch someone off the road. Should we have read his mind? Are we meant to just know that someone is unsafe? Or perhaps I should just lock myself in my house and never trust anyone again? Nothing even happened to me, and the could-have-beens still frighten me awake at night sometimes. One in four college age women will be sexually assaulted, most of them by someone they know and trust. But dressing modestly doesn’t keep you safe, only spending time with men you know doesn’t keep you safe, only spending time with people your friends have vouched for doesn’t keep you safe. So what exactly are we supposed to do?
Honestly, I may join the next Slutwalk in my area. I had no desire to up until this moment.
Alice, JB, CT, Megan, etc.,
You have all acknowledged that we live in an imperfect and unpredictable world.
Even if you do take complete responsibility for your safety, health and life you may still suffer some misfortune.
But those who do not make prudent choices based on the present realities of life and then suffer misfortune bear the responisbility for the consequences associated with those choices.
The United States State Department routinely issue travel advisaries cautioning people NOT to visit regions of known danger. But guess what? Some people choose to disregard those warnings and soley because they want to, not because they have to, venture in where angels dare not tread and suffer as a result.
Does that absolve the one who harmed them of responsibility and accontability?
No.
Does the person who was harmed bear some responsibility for what happened to them?
Yes.
There are many parts of this country that are the equivalent of a war zone.
Don’t go there unless it is an absolute necessity and then take the necessary precautions to reduce the likelihood that you will suffer.
The point of discussion was the video.
The victim made herself a ‘soft target’. She invited and welcomed juniors advances. She reciprocated. She walked into the dark alley, alone. She saw junior following her. Evidently she forgot to put ‘Peggy Sue’ in her shoe or she forgot how to use ‘Peggy Sue’, cause she did not use ‘Peggy Sue’ til after the fact.
This lady as portrayed in this video behaved foolishly and she only escalated the foolishness from one level to another.
Step up to the plate and tell me any of you would have continued into the dark alley alone, if you saw junior on your tail.
I categorically disagree that I bear the primary responsibility for another adults health, safety and life, because I cannot be where they are 24 hours a day and even if I am I cannot possibly prevent them from doing something stupid if they are intent on doing it.
joyfromillinois says: June 11, 2011 at 1:36 pm
1. “If you are defending yourself, do the least harm to ensure your safety.”
2. “But to kill in cold blood, even for revenge, is no answer.”
3. “Justice must be allowed to play out in some shape or form.”
Joy,
1. There is principle in the law that says self defense is reciprocal. Your ‘legal’ response is limited to the actions of the agressor. You can’t go on the offensive and beat the agressor to death after you have incapacitated him.
Law enforcement personel, and I suspect soldiers, are trained to give themselves the benefit of the doubt. If the agressor has targeted them with a weapon, they should assume that his intent is to kill them and they should respond in kind. They do not shoot to wound or incapacitate. They shoot to kill and sometimes the bad gets lucky and survives.
2. To kill in self defense is not ‘in cold blood’.
3. Justice is not always meted out in a court of law. That is the preferable venue, but it is not the only venue. A state representative once told me that I was mistakenly looking for justice in the law.
Law should be just, [An unjust law is no law at all.] but justice and law are not the same thing.
Liberty and justice are much closer cousins.
I really don’ think rape is particularly related to promiscuity or the “feel-good” mentality. Most European are more promiscuous than the US, and in most industrialized countries the rate of sexual assault is much lower than the US. I am not sure what it is tied to, but its probably not promiscuity. Rape is violent subjugation, not rough sex. Rapists (except for the odd drunk college guy who gets carried away) are not normal men who got too frisky. That attitude is preposterous.
This thread really makes me want to punch a wall or something.
Yor bro ken, The video makes it clear that she knew her attacker and possibly had a previous relationship or something of that nature. She didn’t appear to have a reason to be afraid of him, and didn’t seem to have a way of knowing he would turn violent. I didn’t realize women were supposed to be terrified of every man they know [/sarcasm]. Plus, it’s a laugh to say that she should be carrying around a gun just in case she is attacked. A lot of states have extremely strict concealed carry laughs.
And for the last time, WHO GIVES A CRAP IF SHE FLIRTED OR RECIPROCATED HIS ADVANCES????? Women can flirt with most men, especially those they know, and should not have to fear sexual assault! That’s why it is called date and acquaintance RAPE, not date and acquaintance “Well, she was provoking it.”
I feel sick to my stomach, I can’t believe this is a prevailing male attitude towards rape.
I categorically disagree that I bear the primary responsibility for another adults health, safety and life, because I cannot be where they are 24 hours a day and even if I am I cannot possibly prevent them from doing something stupid if they are intent on doing it.
That’s right Ken. The only responsibility you should claim is to state that the person who was raped bears some responsibility for what happened to them if they behave in ways that you think are stupid and imprudent. I would think you would have been all over the Top Twenty list, saying how stupid and dangerous it is of grown men to make lists based on a women’s hotness rather than just saying it is shallow but boys will be boys, I guess.
while it’s almost always not the victim’s fault
I too am curious when to know what times it is the victim’s fault. Common sense tells me that if it is someone’s fault, they should not be called a victim but rather a participant or a perpetrator.
JackBorsch says:June 12, 2011 at 12:41 pm
Suggest you read the lyrics to the song and then view the video, again.
Look for ‘Peggy Sue’ in both the lyrics and the song.
And yes, it would be a good idea for both men and women who want to take responsibility for their own safety and welfare to consider some self defense training and perhaps purchasing a firearm and the training necessary to carry it legally.
This video provides a great teachable moment for families to discuss the world around them and reach their own conclusions.
It would really be interesting to poll the people who viewed the video and read the lyrics to the song and get their perspective on just what went down.
@ yor broken,
There isn’t anything in the lyrics about rape. And I don’t see anything different than I stated above in the video.
This thread has seriously raised my blood pressure. I usually don’t take the internet so seriously. Sheesh, I am actually ticked off.
I too am curious when to know what times it is the victim’s fault. Common sense tells me that if it is someone’s fault, they should not be called a victim but rather a participant or a perpetrator.
===============================================================
Me 1:16pm
“It does not change the fact that he disregarded her ‘NO!’, however she communicated it, and raped her. He is guilty of rape.
Though she was the victim, she is NOT innocent. She was an accomplice in her own rape before the fact.”
==================================================================
Please allow me to ammend my remark: Though she is the victim she was not innocent.
[1 a: free from guilt or sin especially through lack of knowledge of evil : blameless <an innocent child> b : harmless in effect or intention <searching for a hidden motive in even the most innocent conversation — Leonard Wibberley>; also : candid <gave me an innocent gaze> c : free from legal guilt or fault; also : lawful <a wholly innocent transaction>
2 a : lacking or reflecting a lack of sophistication, guile, or self-consciousness : artless, ingenuous b : ignorant <almost entirely innocent of Latin — C. L. Wrenn>; also : unaware <perfectly innocent of the confusion he had created — B. R. Haydon> ]
She may have been an unwitting, [as she lacked the prescient knowledge to know what might transpire] but not unwilling, accomplice in her own rape before the fact. [Junior did not drag her into the dark alley. She went and he followed.]
The dark alley is the equivalent of the war zone.
You can re-write this script for any country in the world, any language, any culture, any religion and re-create the same scenario and it will always spell S T U P I D!
And none of us herer have ever done anything of which at the very thought we winced, like driving drunk, or leaving a skillet of grease on a hot burner, or transporting a pound of marijuana from Texas to Ohio in hopes of turning a quick buck.
You have placed ‘rape’ in some sort of sacro sanct exempt category where the very fact one was raped absolves them of any responsibilty for their actions.
Now that is denial.
Now we are back to the hypocritical hysteria.
JB,
The point of the lyrics was she owned a firearm. She carried ‘Peggy Sue’ in her shoe. She knew what kind of world she lived in. She was not ‘innocent’ of that knowledge.
Are you now going to argue because she carried a gun she was ‘paranoid’? She may have been paranoid but not without cause. Maybe she viewed ‘Peggy Sue’ an accessory, like Pink Iphone.
“It’s a 22, I call her Peggy Sue
When she fits right down in my shoes
What do you expect me to do
If you’re playing me for a fool
I will lose my cool
And reach for my fire arm.”
That does not sound like she viewed ‘Peggy Sue’ as bling.
Seriously, dude, every time you post you say something worse.
A dark alley is not an equivalent of a war zone. It is obvious from the video that she was familiar and felt safe with many of the people in her town. In my hometown women didn’t have any fear of walking home in the dark. My reaction to the video was not “She’s stupid,” it was “How dare that guy follow her and hurt her.”
I would love you to come to Florida. I bet you would blame every rape victim who lives here for being an accomplice in their own rape, seeing as the vast majority of them dress pretty scantily (it does get pretty hot and there are a lot of beaches here) and walk all over the place at night. How dare they!
The video goes from her leaving the dance to a dark alley. It does not show how she got to the alley and it didn’t appear she was there willingly. Anyone should be able to leave a dance, band, etc. without being blamed for being complicit in what happens afterward. She was not happy how things were going so she made what she thought was a good decision to leave. Maybe she could have asked another guy to walk her out or called a cab because that would guaranteed her safety (sarcasm).
To compare this woman’s behavior to blatant, dangerous acts like drunk driving and transporting drugs or innocent, forgetful acts like forgetting something on the stove is absolutely unbelievable.
You can teach your daughters how to dress conservatively, stay away from night clubs, not flirt with men, stay out of alleys, etc. until you are blue in the face. The fact remains, that statistically speaking, at least one of them will be raped, when they least expect it by someone they least expect. I sure hope no one would question/judge their behavior beforehand especially if they made it clear they did not want to have sex.
Woman are accomplices in their own rapes before the fact in the same way that a paraplegic who was hit by a drunk driver is an accomplice for being in a wheel chair. After all, he should not have been on the road after work during Happy Hour because he was aware that there are some drunks on the roads at that time.
The war zone is men blaming rape victims for their own rapes regardless of what happened before hand. If you can’t see this, you are in denial.
“In court, the victim’s behavior, dress, and sexual history are all routinely used by the defense. Why are any of those relevant? How does clothing, or the number of partners that someone consents to sleep with, have any bearing on whether or not someone has been violated? I don’t care if a woman is walking around a frat party naked and stoned out of her mind–there is never an excuse, and she never asked to be raped.”
This is not the case in many Western courts now since it is considered irrelevant to the actual facts of the case. In fact, in many jurisdictions, evidence as to either person’s behavior prior to the actual incident is not revealed to the jury.
I think Rihanna is a disgusting woman who has lost her way completely. I pray for this poor soul. Her videos in many ways are more disgusting than Lady Gaga’s and that’s saying alot for me. At one of her recent concerts, she basically wore underwear on stage all evening.
We know Rihanna is a victim of abuse and likely has experience other abuse in her life. I think this is her reflection of those experiences and how she felt very powerless durng these incidents. In the video she has a few moments of power over her rapist.
Nice analogy, Praxedes. It fits. I think we should start calling everyone who drives or walks anywhere in the evenings stupid, they were obviously just asking to get hit by a drunk driver. Every drunk driving victim is at fault in some way! They are complicit in their own vehicular homicides! Oh, and those stupid people who get hurt while hiking in the woods, what idiots they are for enjoying nature! They should have known that statistically they had a chance of getting hurt! What fools!
Seriously though, I really don’t think any conversation I have ever had has made me so angry. Well, actually, once I chatted with a guy who thought that it was impossible for teenage boys to be sexually abused, that they must have wanted it in some way. That level of rage is about equal to what I feel now.
Statistically, 1 in 3 women and 1 in 5 men will be sexually abused at some point in their lives, and the majority of these crimes are perpetrated by people known to the victims.
If I believed in God, yor bro ken, I would pray that your daughters never ever are sexually abused. Not only because I would hope that everyone is free from sexual abuse, its also that I can just see you explaining what dumb things she did to lead up to the rape.
JackBorsch says: June 12, 2011 at 2:59 pm
1. A dark alley is not an equivalent of a war zone.
2. “It is obvious from the video that she was familiar and felt safe with many of the people in her town.”
3. I would love you to come to Florida.
4. I bet you would blame every rape victim who lives here for being an accomplice in their own rape, seeing as the vast majority of them dress pretty scantily (it does get pretty hot and there are a lot of beaches here) and walk all over the place at night. How dare they!
JB,
1. How would you describe a dark alley in the parts of Orlando which you avoid?
An amusement park?
2. Then why did she carried ‘Peggy Sue’ in her shoe?
For exterminating rats in dark alleys?
Evidently not or she has difficulty identifying rats or she is a charter member of PETA. She did not have any problem puttin a cap in junior’s @ss in a brightly lit corridor in central station with no regard for all the non-combatants all around.
It’s a 22, I call her Peggy Sue
When she fits right down in my shoes
What do you expect me to do
If you’re playing me for a fool
I will lose my cool
And reach for my fire arm.”
3. I don’t have to go Florida to find creeps lurking in dark alleys. Every large city more than their share of both.
4. Any one who has been raped should have gained the good sense to avoid ‘dark alley’ scenarios. The wise learn from the mistakes of others and avoid many dangerous situations.
Women are statistically safer in a dark alley than in their own homes or other familiar places, yor bro ken. And that’s the hard truth. Actually, most stranger rapes take place in parking lots and garages. Would you tell a woman working night shift that she acted improperly by going to her freaking car?
JackBorsch says: June 12, 2011 at 3:46 pm
“If I believed in God, yor bro ken, I would pray that your daughters never ever are sexually abused. Not only because I would hope that everyone is free from sexual abuse, its also that I can just see you explaining what dumb things she did to lead up to the rape.”
=====================================================================
JB,
If God could not or would not hear the prayers of non-believers non of us would have hope.
It would be irresponsible of me as a father if I believed my children, all of whom are adults, did not learn from their mistake and I failed to at least attempt to show them where they went wrong.
When they were kids I made them wear their seatbelts and when they were older they made sure I wore mine.
I gave them a physics lesson about objects in motion tending to stay in motion and told them if the car we were riding in at thirty miles an hour came to a sudden stop their bodies would still be traveling thirty miles an hour and they would probably go flying thru the front windshield and do a face plant and long painful skid down the asphalt road if they were NOT wearing their seat belt.
When we went to see ‘x-men’ they saw an enactment of exactly what that looked like.
The lights came on in their fertile minds. They got it. They knew I was looking out for them and they could trust my advice.
Rape is a terrible thing.
But to the wise it does provide a teachable moment.
There is a time and a season for every conversation.
Evidently this is not the time or the season for you.
But I have to believe just watching that video will be instructive enough for most, even absent all our chatter.
yor bro ken – gosh – you seem to be on a tear here. while you may think you are being sensible and kind, maybe in this venue, you are coming off completely the opposite. woman and men should feel safe where they are. Women are never responsible for their rape. It’s an act of control and violence. Should they be prudent? yes. Aware? yes. Have an action-plan in case something strange happens? yes. But here you come off as: blaming the victim, and angry.
May I ask a question? Have you had an experience, to you, your family or close friend, where someone has been victimized – as in rape, robbery or anything like that? I’m just asking. You seem to be having a fight here with practically everyone – and reading into the answers what is not there. I’m just concerned.
As I said above – love wins…. in everything.
yor bro ken,
Several victims of sexual abuse and rape, myself included, have told you that what you are saying is damaging and wrong. I’m actually physically ill as well as emotionally screwed up after hearing the things you have said.
If you are truly pro-life and care about other humans, you should concede this one and stop talking to people who have actually experienced abuse like this. It isn’t doing any good to anyone, you aren’t providing needed insight, you are just being cruel. Most victims of sexual abuse and rape struggle for years with feelings of guilt and shame. People saying things like this compounds it.
You realize that attitudes like your’s are part of the reason abuse is so underreported?
Joy,
I will give you this. My comments may be perceived as insensitive by some, many, or all.
But being blunt does not mean the point is wrong.
I was only dealing with the scenario portrayed in the video and the accompanying lyrics.
Some people, do to their own ‘wounding’, feel threatened and attacked by my comments because they empathize with every rape victim no matter the difference in the circumstances.
The victim and the rapist in that video both behaved stupidly and criminally.
Nearly everyone who disagrees with my conclusion wants to excuse the women’s actions. If the video had ended with them having consensual passoionate sex in the alley some of the commenters here would have cheered, others would have called her a slut.
I have done neither. I have simply pointed how the folly in her actions while at the same time condemning the rapist, not excusing him one iota.
Maybe my ‘crime’ is not expressing sympathy for her.
I have to confess, as you can see by the difference between my first and second take, I did not have much sympathy after I viewed the video. I still wanted to shoot the rapist myself, and I can understand her wanting to do the same. But I will not excuse her stupidity any more than I will excuse his ciminality.
Stupidity and criminality are two different things, but both carry responsibility.
JB,
YOU are blaming me for YOUR feelings. I have no doubt your feelings are real, but they are not true. They are a lie. And you have chosen to believe the lie. Your are not guilty. You are not to blame. You were not in control. You did not place yourself in harms way. You had no choice who your family would be.
You are not to blame. You are not responsible for what the stronger has done to the weaker. You are not insane. You did not volunteer to be violated. You were in a position of disadvantage and you survived and your continue to survive.
You have experienced some healing and there is more ahead. As you are empowered to forgive more and more you will be healed more and more.
“May I ask a question? Have you had an experience, to you, your family or close friend, where someone has been victimized – as in rape, robbery or anything like that? I’m just asking.”
Joy,
Some of my siblings were abused sexually by strangers or neighbors. I have no memory of anything like that happening to me.
I was emotionally and phsyically abused, but I never suffered any phyical injury that required medical attention that I can recall.
I am not angry in this discussion, but I am not willing to concede the point that actions have consequences and with choices come responsibility and accountability.
I have wounds in my own soul that have not yet been healed. I believe everyone does. An unhealed wound is an ugly thing. It is even uglier when it is exposed to the light. But it will not be healed til it is exposed and in my experience the exposure was seldom a pleasant experience, but the suffering was more than worth the healing.
But I will receive your counsel and take a time out.
Dude, I don’t need your absolution or your pity. I hope that if another rape victim stumbles across this thread they read comments other than yours and sees that not everyone has this attitude.
BTW, what was done to me and what was done to the victim in the video are morally equivalent acts. The victims are no more responsible in either case.
I’m out, I cannot have this conversation any longer.
All convicted rapists should receive LIFE sentences so they wont be able to rape anyone else!!!!!!!
As has already been reported on this thread, the reality of rape is far different from the stranger-jumping-out-of the-bushes scenario that some people insist upon clinging to. Most women know their attackers–be it a family member, a date, a neighbor, or a trusted friend (and no, that is not an all-exclusive list). Part of being in a relationship (and here I’m not speaking strictly of the romantic kind–friends and family are included as well) in making yourself vulnerable. Your friends are the people that you’re always told to stick with as a form of protection, not as people that you need to protect yourself against. Your friends are supposed to be the people you go out to drink with, and the people who will make sure that you get home safely if you drink too much. Am I saying that you should get in car with some random person that you just met at a coffee shop? No. But I am arguing that women, as well as all other people, should be able to have the expectation that they can, for instance, safely get in the car with a trusted male friend. Being careful who your friends are won’t always save you either–sometimes, there really aren’t any warning signs.
Constant vigilance cannot, and never could, prevent all rapes. Any woman, regardless of race, age, ethnicity, clothing, lifestyle, ect. can be raped. Your average male is far stronger than your average woman–all the preparation in the world doesn’t change that.
Those who harp on how a victim of sexual assault should have protected himself/herself better, and is therefor complicit in the abuse, also tend to be those who want to rationalize–“it couldn’t happen to me or my loved ones, because we’re careful. We’re prepared.” It’s far less comfortable to live with the knowledge that no matter what you or your loved ones do, rape can still happen to you/them. Blaming the victim is easier than confronting the uncertainty that, whether acknowledged or not, haunts each of our lives. It’s easier than understanding how fragile the bonds and social controls provided by law really are. It’s easier than confronting a culture in which rape and other sexual misconduct is tacitly accepted as “boys will be boys,” or “she was asking it, via past sexual promiscuity or clothing.” It’s also easier to condemn women (or men, after all, victims of rape can be either gender, and it’s important to acknowledge said fact) for engaging in a type of lifestyle or making decisions that you yourself do not agree with rather than recognize that no one’s choices provide a tacit invitation for others to rape or abuse them, and that everyone should be free to live and act as they choose within the equal constraints and protections of the law.
Carla,
I know that I’m usually at odds with most the commentators here, but I’m glad to see that on this, at least, we are agreed. I appreciate the support.
I liked Rihanna’s video and song, personally. I liked it because it showed a very real response to rape–murderous anger. I don’t think she is promoting violence, though violence takes place, I think she is merely illustrating what can go on in someone’s mind when something horrible has been done to them.
An artist’s portrayal of events and people’s reaction to them are very different. I have to admit I wouldn’t want to send a woman to jail for this, that may be wrong, but it’s the way I feel. I would not applaud her action’s the way these bloggers are doing, though. This woman committed murder, it was not self-defense. While I can understand why she did what she did she would need serious therapy for several reasons. These bloggers are promoting bad behavior. Wanting a woman to get help for her mental state rather than go to prison is a lot different than condoning her actions, and the latter is what these bloggers are doing.
The most vivid memory I have from middle school was a schoolwide assembly on sexual violence. Maybe we were “too young” to be hearing that kind of talk, but it’s intersesting that now as adults, many of my peers remember it. I grew up with some very “thuggish” boys, but they always seemed to have a lot of respect for women. All the horror stories of dating violence and rape came from the wealthy suburbs rather than this motley crew of inner city drug dealers. At least in my hometown, the landscape of misogyny and violence was inverted. I think Enigma said it best–one can’t always “know” which situations are dangerous.
Enigma,
I grew up with a father who gave me mace at a young age, I was taught to check under cars, in back seats, walk in the middle of the street. I was told to put my keys between my fingers and make a fist, taught basic self defense and was later sent countless articles about the rapes happening on my college campus.
My fear grew and grew and I was horrified that someone would do that to me. WHO was this enemy? WHO was I protecting myself from? WHY would anyone do that to me? WHERE were these horrible men?
Tough stuff for a shy, sensitive girl to handle.
Your average male is far stronger than your average woman- all the preparation in the world doesn’t change that.
Engima
If all the preparation in the world can’t protect against rape which is an extreme form of violence then why would police even bother to carry weapons. If what your saying is someone who has been a victim of sexual violence should not blame themselves then I agree with you. But if your saying don’t bother being armed or carrying a tazer and/or mace because the odds are stacked against you then I don’t agree. All the protection in the world might not make a woman as strong as a man but it will help her attacker to rethink his thinking. If preparation didn’t make a difference there would be no military there would be no police forces there would just be anarchy. Many a would be attacker has rethought his or her plans when confronted with an individual who is prepared.
Carla
Maybe your dad went overboard but at least you were prepared. My mom was of the opposite mindset of your dad and I was taught that men could be trusted. Had I been trained as you were I doubt seriously I’d be dealing with the amount of depression I deal with today. Of course it doesn’t mean that all men are horrible it just means that like they have women that are bad they also have men that are bad.
Can you imagine what people would think if a woman who was the victim of a botched abortion later found the abortionist and shot him down?
This video has several mixed messages. The woman wore a cross necklace. Christians do not advocate premeditated murder.
Myrtle,
No, I’m not arguing that all preparation is useless. You’re right, preparation will deter some attackers. But it is a fallacy to believe that adequate preparation can ensure a person will never be raped or sexually abused.
I haven’t been sexually assaulted, nor have any of my family members or closest friends. But I have had classes on rape, taught by a highly experienced, highly trained police officer who has been personally dealing with rape cases for the past 40 years. He is considered an expert on all aspects of rape, including the psychology of rapists and why they do what they do. Keep in mind that these classes took place at a conservative Christian college that has fairly strict rules about modest dress and behavior, and that the police officer mentioned above is also a conservative Christian.
He attacked the “blaming-the-victim” mentality as strongly as anyone I have ever seen. He explained that the mistake most people make is thinking that rape is about sex, when it isn’t: it is about POWER. Most rapists have a certain kind of women that they most want to overpower. Some rapists fixate on women with brown hair, or women with gray hair, or women who dress provocatively, or women who dress modestly. Yes: it is entirely possible that I, as a modest young woman, could end up in a situation where I get raped, and wouldn’t have if I had been dressed more provocatively. Because the majority of rapists have a “type”, and their “type” isn’t about “sexiness”. It is about the women they want to exert their power over: maybe young, or old, or blonde, or brunette, or thin, or fat. This police officer, who has spent 40 years hunting down rapists and talking to victims and studying the psychology behind these horrific crimes, told us that the worst thing you can EVER do is question a victim’s actions/behavior/dress or suggest that they might have done something differently to avoid what happened. That, he said, is the best way to cripple recovery and add to the feelings of shame and guilt that get layered on top of the trauma they’ve already experienced. You don’t question, you don’t accuse. Because not only is it damaging to someone who is already terribly hurting, it isn’t true. Period. For the reasons I mention, in addition to the reasons mentioned by people above (most rapes are committed by people the victim knows; most take place in the victim’s house; etc.).
Hey Yor Bro Ken,
I was a victim of childhood sexual molestation, and a victim of repeated date rape. I could never have healed if I sat around just blaming those sick twisted males and how they “shouldn’t” of done this and how I “should be able to” stick my hand in the fire without being burned. I had to accept my role in it. I had to find where I went wrong. So that I could learn from it and help prevent it’s happening again. I think you’re right. Sitting around thinking about how it was everyone elses fault but mine kept me the victim. Finding my role in it gave me the power to prevent it. I CAN reduce my chances of it happening again. I CAN make good choices. Works much better than “he shouldn’t have” (cause I have no control over him or others) and waaaay better than “I should be able to do whatever I want” (cause that enables me to put myself at risk again).
Yes, we “should” be able to walk down dark alleys without fear, sure we “should” be able to go around practically naked without worrying about what freak will “misinterpret” our fashion choices. But we live in the real world. There are really freaks out there. So we should do whatever it takes to help prevent ourselves from becoming a victim. Dressing modestly and being aware of your surroundings, including not being alone with even a male friend, will not guarantee that you won’t be raped, but it is one way you can take responsibility and help REDUCE your chances of it happening.
Wear a helmet on your motorcycle. Wear your seat belt in the car. Keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen. No one complains “Well we should be able to do those things without having to take precautions! Just cause I didn’t wear a seat belt doesn’t mean I should be thrown through the windshield!” No one’s saying you “should” be, and no you aren’t literally “asking” to be, and of course you don’t “deserve” it, we’re simply pointing out that your immature and illogical refusal to take proper safety precautions pretty much guarantees that IF you are in an accident you will likely go through the windshield.
What would be the prevailing opinion if Lady Gaga DID walk through a lions cage wearing her meat dress and got mauled???
a. She should be able to without the sick messed up lion thinking he can do whatever he wants.
b. We are all responsible as a society for what that lion did.
c. She should have known that was likely to happen.
Course a MAN should be able to resist a steak cause he has REASON. A man who rapes is making a CHOICE to commit violence, so yeah he’s a vicious sick freak jerk etc. and deserves the fullest extent (and more) of lawful punishment. I’m just saying we women must take responsibility for our choices and do what it takes to change our behavior and lower our risks of being victimized in the first place!
Engima
Preparation will seriously deter some attackers. I seen this program on t.v. where three young adults went around robbing and killing people. So they enter this elderly ladies house but she had a weapon. Long story short I think she killed one of them if I remember right and the other two are in jail. There intent was to rob and kill her as they had been doing and getting away with. Because she was prepared now they are behind bars and she is alive. They were armed but alas so was she. Because she was prepared she seriously changed the odds in her favor. I’m not sure if she was an expert or not but she’s alive and the criminals are behind bars.
Myrtle,
Some. Not all. And a lack of preparation should never be seen as fault in the case of an assault.
Again, you’re latching onto the stranger-rape fallacy. Most rapes aren’t perpetuated by strangers.
I agree with Katey and Enigma, and those that are thinking along those lines.
@myrtle,
I have a gun, but I don’t have a permit to carry. It makes me feel better to have it in the house, but I am under no illusion that it will be of any help.
@TheChristianHippie,
I am glad you found the way for you to heal from what happened to you. I regret that you suffered, and it is good that you haven’t given up but are trying to heal.
Please do something though. Take a look at the statistics and facts about rape and sexual abuse, and some of people’s stories here, and tell me how they assisted in causing their abuse. Will you tell me what I should have done to prevent mine? Should I have run away at ten instead of seventeen? Shot my father? Not have been born? Let me know what it is that I should have done to “take responsibility” for “my part” in what was done to me.
I am glad you found empowerment in the way you chose to live your life after what you suffered. However, it isn’t helpful to think that way for me or many other people. I actually am hugely offended at the suggestion that I or any victim of a sex crime is in some way responsible for the offense. Please read Katey’s post above, she put it very well about why some women are targeted and some people aren’t.
I am not saying do not try to be prepared, I am saying people should not blame the victim or try to figure out “what she did” to be targeted. If a woman wishes, she can explore those feelings with a therapist. It isn’t everyone else’s place to constantly judge those who are victims of violence. It is counterproductive and can cause even more damage.
“What would be the prevailing opinion if Lady Gaga DID walk through a lions cage wearing her meat dress and got mauled???
a. She should be able to without the sick messed up lion thinking he can do whatever he wants.b. We are all responsible as a society for what that lion did.
c. She should have known that was likely to happen.”
This is a horrible false analogy, and ridiculous to boot. Animals are not reasoning sentient beings. Men are not animals. Men are able to make rational decisions and not jump slobbering all over the first woman to give them a kiss or flash a boob. A sexual predator is just that, someone who preys on people. He may have a thing for nuns or for little boys. You never know. This comment managed to offend me both as a man and an abuse survivor. “She should have known that was likely to happen” is a sentence that shouldn’t be uttered to a rape survivor.
You know, your post would have been an uplifting example of how you worked through what happened to you if you could have not given out this false information about prevention and made these frankly offensive comparisons of men to animals.
Engima
A lack of preparation should never be seen as fault but words have power so if I’m going to use my words to make a difference I would rather encourage someone to have a plan and increase their chances of survival. I guess because I was a victim I’d rather see other people not become one. But thank you for your words because they really bring healing to some of the things I’ve had to deal with.
You don’t question, you don’t accuse. Because not only is it damaging to someone who is already terribly hurting, it isn’t true. Period.
Thanks so much for this, Katey.
Carla, Because what happened to me, I have to be careful that I don’t go overboard with my children as well, especially my daughter. I remind her way too often of all the things you listed in addition to other precautions (my ex’s brother, her uncle, was one of my rapists and this adds to my fears of my children being around him). She is extremely shy and sensitive as well and I don’t want her to be scared of all men like I was for years because I know there are many more good guys out there than bad. Hope you are having a great summer with your little ones.
Some people, do to their own ‘wounding’, feel threatened and attacked by my comments because they empathize with every rape victim no matter the difference in the circumstances.
And some people, do to their inability to admit that they might be wrong, need to look at why they don’t empathize with every rape victim no matter the difference in the circumstances. I am unsure why you put ‘wounding’ in quotes as if some who are raped come out unscathed. I personally feel threatened and attacked by your comments because your comments are indeed threatening and attacking.
To the wise this thread will indeed provide a teachable moment.
Myrtle,
I think some of my points may have been misconstrued. It isn’t that I don’t encourage people to be careful and take precautions, because I do, but that I’m aware that, even when said precautions are taken, they may not always be enough. I’d love to stand up here and say (well, sit here and type) that if you do x, y and z, nothing bad will ever happen to you or your loved ones (in this case meaning rape, assault, robbery or murder), but it isn’t true. You can’t defend yourself against everything 24/7–it just isn’t possible. Recognizing that fact, while uncomfortable at times, helps prevent the blame-the-victim fallacy.
I’m also aware that people are occasionally stupid, or do foolish things. To be honest, that’s a natural part of growing up. I know for a fact that I’ve either unwittingly, naively or stupidly placed myself in situations where things could have gone horribly downhill very quickly. They didn’t, because I was lucky, but they easily could have. And if they had, it still wouldn’t have been my fault. There is never an excuse.
I’m glad that you have found my words to be of some comfort, and hope that someday you are able to lay your demons to rest.
Jack Borsh
If your under no illusion that having a gun in your house will help you then why would you have one? Your agreeing with me or not agreeing with really doesn’t change what I have to say. If you care for someone you make an attempt to encourage them to be prepared. You can’t change what happens to someone in the past but your words can protect them from something that might happen in the future. I too was a victim of incest but did not suffer as much as you did. Had I been adequately prepared my abuser would have been sufficiently embarrassed by me to never have humilated me again. I would never argue to break the law. Carrying a tazer and/or mace is not against the law and improves an individuals chances of survival should they be targeted.
I could never have healed if I sat around just blaming those sick twisted males and how they “shouldn’t” of done this and how I “should be able to” stick my hand in the fire without being burned. I had to accept my role in it.
Hi ChristianHippie, I am curious what role you played in being molested and raped?
I accept no role in being raped either time — I blamed myself for too long. There are two people who had a role in my rapes — the two rapists.
I could never heal until I forgave my rapists.
@myrtle,
Sorry, I chose my words poorly. I have a gun because for one I enjoy target shooting, and there is a chance (however small) that if there is an intruder in my house I can protect my wife and kids. What I meant about having no illusion is that I am aware that the biggest threat to my kids is more likely to be a babysitter, family member, or something like that. I wasn’t trying to disagree with you, I do agree in fact. I am probably just too sensitive to being blamed or accused of not trying to protect myself. I am not advocating fatalism or that people shouldn’t try to do what they can to help keep themselves safe.
Engima
My experience I guess is just different from yours. I’ve found that in any situation I always do better if I’m prepared. I think when an individual is attacked the surprise element beside a weapon is probably what gives the attacker the greatest advantage. An individual that is adequately prepared wheter it’s a tazer or a can or mace has a much better chance. And when it’s a crime that’s being committed by someone who isn’t a stranger again it’s better to be prepared. I guess our experience is just different preparation has always helped me and is far preferably than not knowing how to protect yourself and/or not being aware of what constitutes a crime.
Jack Borsh
Thank you when I read Engima’s post that’s what I was thought he was advocating for but I couldn’t remember the word and I thought that’s what you were advocating for too. Glad to know it isn’t. ++++++++++++++++++++ The addition signs are compliments of zorro (our kitten)!
Marauder, Prraxedes, et. al,
I miswrote and I apologize. Definitionally, the perpetrator is to blame, not the victim.
What we do to make some crimes less likely is only the tiniest fraction of the answer. If one nastily insults another’s loved one, a punch in the nose leaves the situation a draw. If one brags about one’s valuables to a neighnbor he knows is broke, he isn’t asking to be robbed but might not be totally surprised.
No rape victim ultimately “asks for it”, but all victims can take some precautions.
It’s the victimizers we must curb. But how to do it? Strengthen culture, families? Make prison sentences mandatory and to increase exponentially with each conviction?
The heart of man is desperately wicked, and who can know it?
Praxedes,
My father instilled fear. That did not come from a place of love and protection. Do I know some basic self defense moves? Yes. I believe I would have been blamed had anything happened to me. I am very careful with my children that they feel empowered by knowledge and are told because I love them and want them to face this world without fear. A spirit of fear has no place in their lives.
I am very sorry for all that you have been through and know that from reading your posts you come from a place of great healing and strength!! God bless you!
Hans, apology accepted. Thank you; it means a lot to me. I too at times have a desperately wicked heart and can only hope I will be forgiven by others. Just when I think I have one sin overcome, I repeat it or He opens my eyes to another.
Carla, Thank you for your kind words. I too am so sorry for what you and so many others here have been through. I recognize God working through you. God Bless you as you continue your important work helping others heal!! He has Blessed you with a wonderful gift.
Myrtle,
I am so sorry for your depression and all that you have been through.
I didn’t feel prepared. Just scared beyond belief and I did not trust anyone. To walk as though your attacker/rapist is around every corner is no way to live either.
No weapon formed against me shall stand. I walk in that truth today.
God bless you, Myrtle.
Thank you to the rape victims who have spoken out despite the pain this thread has caused them. I appreciate your attempts to educate and enlighten.
As those who know say that rape is about power, not sex, what do we do to prevent it?
A thought exercise suggests to me that men who are not interested in/open to having sex with a woman will avoid looking at her body if it is inappropriately exposed and not let her have intimate contact with him. So it would seem like if woman expected to not be alone with men (even friends), and did not consider sexual conduct prior to marriage acceptable, this would go a long way to prevent rape by a date, friend, or stranger (though not family). This might do nothing to change the man’s intentions, but his intentions would be known as soon as he touched her inappropriately and he did not stop when she requested. It would never get to the point of sex. This does not mean it’s the victim’s fault at all if she’s already alone with the guy and he does rape her, but it does mean perhaps it’s wiser not to put oneself in that position. It does not mean that a woman’s openness to foreplay-like activities can ever mean she gave consent to more.
I don’t know whether a culture that accepts and even expects sexual activity outside of marriage as normal actually increases the number of men who are or would be rapists. I don’t believe those one-in-four-women-raped statistics would have been true a century ago, though. So either there are more rapists now, or those there are just have a whole lot more opportunity and a whole lot more women are easy targets. At very least I think the sexual permissiveness of our culture makes it easier for men to blame the victims and get away with rape. A culture which is saturated with illicit sex sees rape as sex and doesn’t see the big deal. A culture which sees sex as a sacred part of marriage is a culture that is horrified by the idea that a man would force himself on another person without their permission. A culture which doesn’t accept sexual behavior before marriage is one where forcing that behavior on someone else is abominable, because people don’t just see it as a technicality of who and when, but as a horrific violation of the victims’ body and will.
When you see someone talking about how it wasn’t really rape rape, or a person deserved to be raped, that person is not speaking as a Christian. Christians are the ones saying that sex outside a marriage is wrong and damaging, so of course they understand that rape is wrong and damaging. As we develop the mind and heart of Christ, rape and other crimes become more unthinkable.
Rape is always “a horrific violation of the victims’ body and will,” not a matter of “technicality of who and when.” Anything less is demeaning to all past, present and future victims of this terrible crime. Anything that equates the trauma and violation of rape with the inherent “trauma and violation” of consensual sex between two adults is blatantly wrong, damaging, thoughtless and insensitive.
The incidence of rape in society may have gone up, or it may simply be reported more frequently. Even if the actual numbers have gone up, what you need to compare is percentages, given the increase in the population. Percentages, however, won’t tell you about past under-reporting. Even now, when rape is actually treated as a punishable offense, many women still don’t report it due to the social stigma. Have you read accounts of how rape victims were treated by police as little as 25-30 years ago (even less, in some cases)? They’re horrific. It’s hardly a stretch of the imagination to believe that a violated woman who faced such a response from police, as well as social shunning/shaming, would be far from eager to report such a crime.
Limiting women’s freedom (don’t wear this, don’t hang out with friends, don’t step outside your front door unless accompanied by trusted adult, ect.) as a solution for “solving” the problem of rape is a step backwards, not a step forwards. The problem here isn’t women–it’s the men who rape, and a society that continues to condemn the women who are raped as having “asked for it” in some way. Am I arguing that women shouldn’t, ideally, take some precautions to defend themselves? Not in the slightest. But any such actions should be seen as a stopgap measure, not a final solution. Rape is always deplorable. It is always a horrific violation of the victim’s body and will. It is always wrong, and is never the victim’s fault. There is never an excuse.
I really doubt rape is a a lot more common than it used to be. I think that people think that it is, and possibly the rates have gone up a little in recent years, but it probably has more to do with reporting. And also, date and acquaintance rape wasn’t even really considered a crime for a long time, and incest and family abuse wasn’t even talked about. I think that since we now have more support and awareness that people feel safer reporting what happened.
And I don’t know any other way to say this. Women deciding to have sex before marriage does not cause rape. Being alone with a male friend does not cause rape. What you wear does not cause rape. THE VICTIM DOES NOT “ENCOURAGE” IT!
Even now, when rape is actually treated as a punishable offense, many women still don’t report it due to the social stigma. Have you read accounts of how rape victims were treated by police as little as 25-30 years ago (even less, in some cases)? They’re horrific. It’s hardly a stretch of the imagination to believe that a violated woman who faced such a response from police, as well as social shunning/shaming, would be far from eager to report such a crime.
Exactly, Enigma. The police officer who taught our classes told stories of things that had happened in the past ten years that made me shake with fury: women who were treated with disdain and disgust, whose stories were not believed, whose pain was minimized or ignored completely by police officers and medical professionals. The worst story was probably about a young woman whose reported rape had been so brutal that the officer telling us the story believed she had to have internal damage. At the hospital she was treated brusquely, her story was shrugged off as “overdramatic”, and she received only a cursory exam. The woman– exhausted, in physical and emotional agony– just wanted to go home, but the police officer begged her to let him take her to another hospital. She agreed, and within a few hours was in surgery to repair the serious internal damage that, guess what, she did have!
If this kind of thing still happens today, imagine how much worse it was years ago. I think it’s all but impossible to know the frequency of rape back then, due to the factors mentioned by you and others.
A rape advocate would meet a woman at the hospital should they want treatment and to gather evidence(so they can go after the PERP!!)and also be available to help with law enforcement interviews.
There are rape advocacy programs and rape crisis hotlines that are staffed 24/7.
Just one that I found when I googled
http://www.uiowa.edu/~rvap/
A much needed resource these days. :(
It is clearly a tragic song: bad things happen, no one comes out right, no hero, no winner. I don’t think it advocates anything. As a tragic-story calypso song, I think it is very good, and it is cool to have the modern pop mixed with calypso.
Carla
I’m sorry you had to live with so much fear. The little bit of self-defense I know has come in handy on several occasions. And I’ve heard people actually advice women not to fight back when being attacked because they might get killed. I always have and always will advice anyone to be prepared to not do so in my opinion would be cruel. And of course I believe in a perfect world there would be no rape but we don’t live in a perfect world and if I know there are situations that I can avoid to minimize risks factors I will avoid those places. For me it’s about knowing that I am loved of God and loving myself enough not to put myself in situations that would compromise my safety.
Praxedes:
I chose to dress in a revealing manner. I chose to “lead him on” for fun. I thought I was stronger than I was and could stop things at the last moment. I was not. I played games I had no business playing. That’s where I went wrong. That’s what I will never do again.
HE chose not listen to the words “stop” and “no”. HE chose to overpower me. HE chose to rape. That’s where HE went wrong. But I can’t make choices for him. I can’t MAKE him learn anything from it…. unless I was wearing one of these! >:) Wish I was!
http://articles.cnn.com/2010-06-20/world/south.africa.female.condom_1_female-condoms-ehlers-south-africa?_s=PM:WORLD
But anyway, I was complicit. While I had clear boundaries, was not alone with him, and did not “play” around with him, he had no opportunity to “take advantage of”. So I really had no reason then to think he was capable of rape. The day I allowed us to “go further” and was alone with him, and pushed my boundaries too far, he had his opportunity and took it. He was wrong, and I made a mistake. It’s ok to admit to a mistake if you learn from it.
As a child though…. no, I didn’t have the experience to “know better” and see dangerous situations to avoid. I had never been taught that “stranger danger” could include my friends’ fathers. A predator took advantage of that.
I’m sorry if you were offended at my likening men to animals. I didn’t mean to imply that ALL men are animals or that you personally are. I also think you missed the last paragraph in my post (maybe you read the post before I added it after thinking about it) but even in the posts before it, I did mention that men have REASON and should be able to make correct choices. I also think that it’s important to remember that most women have REASON too and should be able to make correct choices as well.
I think ya’ll are applying my arguments unfairly. A woman doing things like Rhianna did in the video is a far cry from a child or even a nun (I would hope). I would say that Rhianna, in the video, placed herself in the danger zone and played with fire, and that she should have known better because she is an adult. Playing with fire increases your chances of being burned, practicing safe fire habits reduces your chances, but there are no fail-safes in anything. You may avoid open flame like the plague (like me avoiding rape-likely situations or someone being a nun or something) but your house may still burn down. I’m just talking about doing your part to lower your chances. Yes if you decide to go ahead and play with fire you’re taking a risk, a known risk, and you are partly responsible if you get burned. I AM NOT TRYING TO EXCUSE THE RAPIST THOUGH, PLEASE DO NOT THINK I AM!
A CHILD however doesn’t have the same reasoning capabilities as an adult, or the same amount of world experience to gain wisdom from. I wouldn’t call them responsible for anything, let alone their own rape. If a child ran across the street without looking, I wouldn’t say it was their fault for getting hit. They simply don’t have the same level of self-control or impulse-control as an adult. Might as well blame a fish for not being capable of climbing a tree even though they were taught the theory of it! A child often doesn’t even know HOW to deal with such a wrong as that (I didn’t) and can’t make a decision to run or tell or anything. Children simply don’t have such capability, that’s one of the reasons they are so often targeted. That’s why it often doesn’t “come out” until adulthood. They aren’t “waiting” for any reason, they just don’t yet have the ability to tell. It’s the rare child who can handle the event(s) maturely enough to know who to tell when and be able to describe it!
Borsch:
My arguments are being applied unfairly and blanket-like. I’m sorry that my inability to communicate my point is offensive or hurting you. I’m sorry that you suffered what too many others have. I never said ALL or EVERY woman (person) was complicit. I just tried to say that women who take part in activities such as those played out in the video are choosing not to practice safe behaviors and habits and placing themselves in situations where rape often occurs. They are choosing to put themselves at risk and must be held partly responsible for the results. NO I AM NOT SAYING THEIR SHARED RESPONSIBILITY EXCUSES THE RAPIST. And no his sentence shouldn’t be reduced for it. I’m not even saying she should be punished (the rape was far more than too much). Read above for rape concerning children. What can they do? They go where adults tell them to go, they do what adults tell them to do. They have very few choices, and very little experience to help them make correct choices. Children aren’t responsible for anything.
When something horrible like this happens, it’s obvious where one person went wrong. But we have to figure out what led to the assault. We have to figure out what behavior makes these attacks more LIKELY. Then we know how to do our part to REDUCE the LIKELIHOOD of them happening. I don’t see how someone can be offended that they should look in the backseat before getting into a car, or stay out of dark alleys. The danger is there. It sux, it shouldn’t be, but it is. Adults with the power of REASON can do things to lesson their chances of being victimized. A child can’t. I’m not claiming anything is fail-safe or that everyone else who isn’t at the club half naked dry-humping someone won’t get raped. I’m just trying to point out that everyone else’s likelihood is LOWER (and there’s a reason for that) and we might want to take the steps we CAN to make sure ours is LOWER too.
In regards to Rihanna let’s remember that we are talking about a real life battered woman. She knows how it feels to be helpless and not in control of her own body or life. Everyone understands that killing your rapist after the fact in cold blood is wrong, however we can also all understand the desire to do so and the remorse that act may or may not inspire in the victim after it is done.
So in conclusion in a real life scenario killing the rapist after the fact is wrong, but I would understand 100% and probably not hold it against the woman. I have talked to quite a few rape victims where I work and some of them think that rape is worse than murder because murder can only happen once to the victim, rape victims have to live with that horror every single day for the rest of their lives. Some victims are stronger than others and can move on to continue their lives but they are never the same. I had one mother of a rape victim tell me that her daughter has never been the same and she refuses to go anywhere by herself… talk about living in fear. Think about what rape does to men in prison, they are never the same again and some change gender all together.
ChristianHippie,
I am sorry if you feel like I misconstrued your arguments unfairly. This is a very touchy subject for me. The horror and shame of sexual abuse is compounded when you feel as though people are blaming victims for what happened to them. I have been blamed my whole life for what happened to me. Rereading your earlier post, I don’t think that is what you are saying. I still don’t agree with you, but I am sorry for accusing you of saying something you didn’t.
I am not going to restate what I have already said or try to explain it further. I’m pretty sure everyone who has read this thread can figure out my opinion on the matter. ;) I am replying to let you know that I don’t hold it against you and I am sorry for being rude. After I calmed down and thought about it, I realized I overreacted. It is really frustrating, however, that people don’t seem to understand that someone who is a sexual predator has a completely different mindset than a regular guy. The vast, huge majority of men would rather be castrated than force a woman to have sex. I never like the insinuation that men are slavering idiots who can’t control themselves. I realize that isn’t the point you were trying to make though.
Just so you know, I don’t think you did anything foolish or made a mistake. That guy sounds like he was a time bomb waiting to go off. I am sorry for the pain you went through, and I hope you are doing well. No hard feelings. :)
” I have talked to quite a few rape victims where I work and some of them think that rape is worse than murder because murder can only happen once to the victim, rape victims have to live with that horror every single day for the rest of their lives.”
No kidding. When I was younger I used to wish that my father would just have killed me rather than leave me to pick up the pieces for the rest of my life. I still think that sometimes when I’m down. The only reason I don’t as much is because of my kids. I can’t imagine a world where they never existed, and if I had died they never would have.
TheChristianHippie says: June 14, 2011 at 6:16 pm
If your wife ever asks you:, “Does this dress make my butt look big?” , fake a heart attack, suddenly remember you left the water running, fake an incoming cell phone call that you have to take, etc.
There is no ‘safe’ answer.
In this particular situation, you have already answered the question in the affirmative and you are well beyond the point of no return. Just drop anchor or cut power and drift silently. Contemplate your navel, meditate on your happy place. Wait silently for the storm to pass. Endure, endure.
At the first opportunity, flee the scene of the crime. For all intents and purposes, you are guilty. Logic, reason, being right, rational thought. None of that matters.
It is all about ‘feelings’ and yours have no place in the conversation.
The ‘look’ will tell you all you need to know.
Man dies while raping elderly South Texas woman
Associated Press
Posted on June 13, 2011 at 4:59 PM
Updated yesterday at 5:50 PM
http://www.wfaa.com/news/texas-news/Man-dies-while-raping-elderly-South-Texas-woman-123777409.html
REFUGIO, Texas (AP) — Investigators said a man has died while in the act of raping an elderly South Texas woman.
The Refugio County Sheriff’s Office identified the man as 53-year-old Isabel Chavelo Gutierrez. Sheriff’s Sgt. Gary Wright said the incident happened June 2 after he rode two miles by bicycle from his home to that of his 77-year-old victim in the tiny coastal community of Tivoli.
Wright said the 5′-7″, 230-to-250 pound man sneaked into the woman’s house and raped her at knifepoint.
During the assault, he said he wasn’t feeling well, rolled over, and died.
Gutierrez’ body was sent to the Nueces County medical examiner in Corpus Christi for autopsy.
Gutierrez was a registered sexual offender on parole from a sentence for aggravated sexual assault and indecency with a child.
==================================================================
Well here we have the rapist who is an accomplice in his own death before, during and after the fact.
Guiterrez’s credentials were impeccable. He was probably in the country illegally. [We have enough of these homegrown freaks, we don’t need to be importing any spares.]
But that’s OK cause he votes democrat. If he had survived his recreational activity and gone into treatment he could have been the next democrat congressman from the state of Texas.
‘Going green’ would have gone a long way in selling his rehabilitation.
If a 71 year old woman, living in a small rural town is not safe in her own home, then who is?
I am reminded of an elderly woman who came home and found a stranger man in her home. She got his attention with her ‘Peggy Sue’ and made him call 911 and report his own crime.
Seriously, Ken, you have to throw the illegal comment in there? My mother’s maiden last names were Martinez Garcia, you wanna make some assumptions about her immigration status too? I hate it when people do that.
And you will notice that I responded quite appropriately to ChristianHippie’s second post, because she didn’t insult anyone and was polite. I don’t agree with her, but civility goes a long way. You were not being civil or kind.
“I hate it when people do that.”
JB,
I bet it really stings when their informed speculation turns out to be correct most of the time.
Hey it’s only the constitution and immigration law. No big deal.
Your mom does not live in Refugio or Tivoli, Texas.
Suggest you consult a Texas map and do a little research about the demographics of the area.
Then we can have a little wager.
Do a little more research, make a phone call or two and verify the citizenship of the deceased rapist.
I like Cuban cigars. The ‘torpedos’ are my favorites. Is one cigar a modest enough bet?
As far as Christian Hippie is concerned it was not a deragatory comment directed at the hipster.
I could see CH was hoeing the same row I had worked myself. I was just trying to save the Hippie some grief. It would have been inconsiderate of me to do otherwise.
I may have offended your sensablilities, but I do not believe I insulted you. You may have chosen to take up another’s offense. That would be your choice, not mine.
Here’s the difference between playing with fire and a woman putting herself in an “unsafe” situation (Since most rapes happen in the victim’s home, we’d actually have to class any individual who is at home as having put him/herself in the most unsafe situation, rather than someone who is out drinking, at a club, at a fraternity party, ect.–something that should render the point null and void): when someone plays with fire, there is only one conscious agent involved–the person who is manipulating/playing with the fire, an inanimate (ie. dead) object. Yes, you may lose control of the fire, but the control hasn’t been forcibly taken by someone else, since you are the only thinking agent in this scenario. As the only thinking agent, you are responsible. In the case of rape, there are at least two thinking agents involved. This changes the equation, since any agent can theoretically seize control of the situation, either in ways that wrest control away from other agents or in ways that involved mutual cooperation. In the latter case, any agent that cooperates is of course complicit, and responsible for their actions, while the agents who are not complicit to the point of either being coerced or physically overpowered are responsible neither for their forced actions nor the resulting situation. Any equation involving multiple thinking agents is fundamentally distinct from one in which there is only one conscious agent–the situations should never be compared, since they are not analogous. Any similarities between them are only superficial at best, and at worst they lead to false and often damaging conclusions.
Don’t be silly Ken. I live in Florida, we have a ton of illegals here. They just tend to be Cuban, not Mexican. My mother is Cuban. I don’t like illegal immigration, and don’t have a ton of sympathy for them. I simply hate it when people assume everyone with a Hispanic last name or looks vaguely Hispanic is “probably illegal”. I wasn’t personally offended, I just know how much it sucks. It is an interesting conundrum, the more sun I get (meaning the more Hispanic I look) the more people like to assume that I’m not a citizen. It’s an irritating stereotype.
And like I said, ChristianHippie didn’t act like a jerk about expressing her views on a subject that is very sore for several people. You did. She won’t get the same response you did.
you bro ken,
You really need to back off. Your arguments are based on a misunderstanding of facts, and could actually do a great deal of harm. What are rape victims who read this thread supposed to think? Seriously, they’ve already got more than enough stuff to deal with without your bullheaded ignorance and misogyny. Or would you prefer to take the Liberian route and simply stone rape victims to death in order to preserve society’s moral code, rather than merely compound rape victims’ shame and trauma by insisting that they are somehow either complicit in or to blame for their rapes? The first option is surely easier than the one that you’ve chosen to pursue, and I’m sure that you would find it to be far more effective as well.
Engima, I told him that before, but he doesn’t seem to understand the words. Whatever.
JB, Enigma,
Now we are not dealing in hypotheticals.
We have a 71 year old woman, who is at home, in what she may have believed is her sanctuary, safe from the outside world.
Junior makes his way to her abode and rapes her at knife point.
Ask your mom if she believes the rapists immigration status might be relevant to the victim.
Then get bact to us.
Enigma,
That is one giant leap in enigmatic thinking. Suggest you re-calibrate your ‘sensitivity’ meter. It is you that have lost touch with reality.
If pointing out the inherent dangers in the world in which we live and the consequences of failing to recognize and modify behavior in response is the equivalent of advocating the ‘stoning of victims’, then it is you who are living in a fantasy land.
I chose to dress in a revealing manner. I chose to “lead him on” for fun. I thought I was stronger than I was and could stop things at the last moment. I was not. I played games I had no business playing. That’s where I went wrong. That’s what I will never do again.
Hi ChristianHippie, I do not believe that how a woman dresses or behaves increases her chances of being raped. I did not dress or behave immodestly either time I was raped and believe men who rape are misogynist, controlling people with entitlement issues. I said no and no means no.
A woman isn’t complicit in her own rape any more than a rambunctious child is complicit in it’s parent beating it. The child provided the opportunity and nothing more. The abusive parent was going to take the anger out on someone. However, I respect your beliefs that you are partially responsible for your rape although I disagree with it.
I do believe being alone with a man increases the odds. I was sleeping alone in a bedroom the first time (with a house full of people) when I was raped. I got in a car alone the second time with a family member to go to meet my husband. Being naive and trusting does not make one stupid or complicit. I wonder how many men worry about going to sleep at night with females in the house or worry about getting in a car alone with a relative. Living a life of constant worry is terrible — I know and refuse to live this way.
I will not take any responsibility for either rape and wish I had one of those female condoms both times. (:
The video does not show how the woman got to the alley. It shows her leaving a place that made her uncomfortable. I do not believe she willingly ended up in the alley but was forced there by him.
If how one dresses makes a female complicit in her rape, conservative so-called Christian men should be all over rating females according to their hotness. I find these ratings to be much more than shallow but extremely objectifying (and dangerous too if it is true that men rape because they can’t handle how hot someone dresses, looks or behaves).
When a wife asks her husband:, “Does this dress make my butt look big?” , it probably is because on some level she knows he judges and objectifies her based on her looks and he has not reassured her that she is loved unconditionally in spite of what her butt looks like. She more than likely has caught him checking out a few butts other than her own over the years.
On a side note, I saw my first rapist at a ball game in a nearby town last night. I have survived and am okay — he is still stuck with himself.
ken,
If the attacker’s immigration status isn’t relevant, then you shouldn’t have brought it up in the first place. Since you did, you can hardly cry foul when someone else challenges your position.
There’s nothing wrong with advising people to recognize dangers and be prepared for them–you aren’t doing that. What you’re saying is that if someone else doesn’t toe the line (“the line” being defined by you, by the way), that (s)he is partly to blame if someone else violates or victimizes her/him. That, in the way that you’re doing it, is an attempt to regulate behavior that I know you don’t agree with–in effect, accomplishing the same ends as those who stone rape victims to death. It isn’t about prevention or support, it’s about control, and retroactively prohibiting those behaviors that you find to be offensive
No one is to blame for someone else’s actions that victimize them. If you walk buck naked to a frat party you are not “asking for it.”
But at the same time, it is logical to recognize that sometimes the things a person does put them at increased risk. If you put on your designer clothes and your designer purse and walk through what you know is a bad part of your city, you are not asking to be mugged. You do not deserve to be mugged. You are in no way responsible for being mugged. But you are more likely to be mugged than if you had driven, worn different clothes, or not gone there at all. You are not responsible for the mugging–you are irresponsible about yourself and your money, though. This only would apply if you were mugged in a dangerous situation. If you were mugged walking into the grocery store by a guy wearing a santa suit and holding a bell, no, you did not take any risks or do anything stupid.
If someone is raped by a family member, or in his or her home by a person who broke in, that is a different situation. There is nothing they could have done to control the risk. We are just saying that when you can control the risk, you should. When I was younger I did my share of walking through the city after dark by myself. In retrospect that was stupid, and maybe I shouldn’t have been working that late, or found a way to not walk back to the dorm alone. I don’t think I really understood the risks, and no one really told me. I probably have a deficit of common sense, I guess. It was irresponsible to walk around the city at night. It would have been more irresponsible to do so without a reason (getting home from work). The fact that I was irresponsible does not mean I would have been responsible for anything that did happen to me. When someone takes something from someone, or does something to them, they are 100% responsible for their wrong actions. But sometimes the victim could have taken more precautions, and it is a shame they did not. Those rapes in someone’s homes might not have occurred had the victim not invited the rapist in. That doesn’t make the victim responsible.
Telling someone they were responsible for their victimization is wrong. But suggesting that someone not engage in risky behaviors is not. When they had all of those PSAs about not leaving your drink unattended because of the date rape drug, were those getting the information out “blaming the victim” or “perpetuating rape culture”? Or were they helping people to be safer?
Ken, you will happy to know that there is a correct answer to your wife’s question of “Does this dress make my butt look big?”
Years of research and development have gone into this topic.
Rejected answers include “Yes” and “No” and “It’s not the dress.”
But there is finally a correct answer:
“I don’t know. Let me see you without the dress.”
From there you can safely move to “That dress doesn’t do you justice” or “I can’t decide which way I like better.”
Please note this answer WILL NOT WORK for your sister. If the person asking the question is not a wife or relative, your mileage may vary, and it may come down to what kind of cad you want to look like. Possible side effects may include red, hand-shaped painful contusions on the facial area.
Or you could try the everpopular “You are so beautiful and you look perfect.”
It doesn’t matter if the dress makes her butt looks big. Telling her is always worse than the alternative.
Praxedes, Borsch:
I can see your side. I will try to be more sensitive to the fact that many people who have had such experiences may still feel victimized by it. I hate to think that my referral to one type of preventable situation may have hurt those who could not have prevented what happened to them. Not EVERYONE is complicit.
I still believe some (not all) situations are preventable and we are responsible for our own carelessness. I will still follow all the “rules” and lock my doors. Peggy Sue is still my best friend next to Jesus :) If anything happens to me, I will know I had done all I could.
——————————————————————————–
Young Christian Woman:
I wish I could express myself as clearly and gently as you :)
———————————————————————————–
Yor Bro Ken:
I see your side too. Thanks for your concern bro :)
————————————————————————–
Peace all! <3
Thanks, Christian Hippie. I do try. Don’t know when it happened, though, because I’m pretty sure I never used to have tact.
YCW – you make me laugh! too funny! Thanks for your post from above! ;)
I agree, joy. That was hilarious. Thanks for that young christian woman, I’m using it next time my wife asks me something like that. It might cure my foot-in-mouth disease. ;) Beats my answer of “….Uh… it looks great?”
ChristianHippie, no problem. Certain opinions and conversations can trigger emotions and flashbacks and that is no fault of yours. Thank you for clarifying what you were saying. No harm done.
Ken, conversations with you don’t tend to go anywhere, do they? There is a difference between stating that people should be prepared and that victims are at fault and deserve scorn.
You say something like…
“Makes me want to shoot both of them for being terminally stupid.
Both of them were fools who floundered in their self made folly.”
…and think you are making some edgy contribution, when all you are doing is being a [expletive deleted] and re-victimizing vulnerable people. Those and the other comments of yours are not putting forth the point in the way you think they are. They make people feel attacked and blamed. I don’t know what else people have to say for you to see this. The people who agree with your points have managed to come across in way that don’t make them look so heartless.
ChristianHippie, I don’t believe you were being insensitive to me nor do I still feel victimized. I am a survivor of rape who was in no way responsible for what happened to me. You have every right to feel that what you wore and how you behaved made you partially responsible for being raped.
I do disagree with you and believe that this dissecting of the victim keeps more rapists out of jail and free to rape more people. Yes, looking in the back seat and staying out of dark alleys is good advice for everyone, not just women.
I sympathize with every rape victim whether they are naive, smart, stupid, promiscuous, flirty, shy, hot, young, old, thin, fat, drinking, sober, introvert, extrovert, etc. They were all soft targets in one way or another without knowing it.
If dressing revealingly and behaving immodestly (acting/dressing hot if you will) is partially to blame for the rape of women, than it only follows that women should be more careful around men who categorize and objectify women based on their hotness as well as those men who downplay this categorizing as a shallow, boys-will-be-boys mentality rather than speaking out against it as something that leads to rape. This is where I come from saying that we are all responsible in stopping rape.
We know that Ken believes that women who have relationships with or who invite, welcome and reciprocate the rapist’s advances are accomplices in their own rapes before the fact. The problem I see is that she would have no way in knowing beforehand that he was a rapist. How many men’s wives flirted with them before marriage? I know I flirted with both my husbands (and a few boyfriends) before we married but was never raped by them.
I am curious if other men reading this thread (other than those who have made their beliefs clear already) believe that what a woman wears or how they behave makes them partially responsible for their own rapes.
“…rape survivors, especially women of color, face being slut-shamed when they speak out against their victimization.”
Stats please. I would like you to show me one legitimate study that actually covers “slut-shaming” by RACE. Sorry but real rapists don’t care what their victims gender or skin color is…black, mixed race, men, children, asian, white, hispanic…your statement that woc are “slut shamed more (than who?)” is painfully ignorant at best and downright hateful at worst. Rape is a worldwide problem and when it is treated as fodder for oneupsmanship on the internet, it degrades real survivors of all skin tones and backgrounds, genders and social strata. There is no hierarchy of victimhood, all rape survivors deserve the same respect and chance at justice. Check yourself, hater.
Also, don’t confuse the medias nasty (often racist) take on these stories with how people really feel and what is really going on. The media often just prints stories about rape for the “outrage clicks” and they skew the stories just to make the commenter’s fight. Trust me, the media’s take on rape does no one justice.