Stanek weekend question: Are aborting mothers victims?
Former Planned Parenthood clinic manager and post-abortive mother Abby Johnson wrote at LifeNews.com this week:
Some of you may think the abortionists hold more guilt than the mother. I would disagree. I do not believe women are “victims” to abortion. I have had two abortions. I was not a victim. I was a perpetrator. My children were victims. Women who are coerced to have abortions still have a choice. They still make that final decision. The final “choice” is up to them. They choose to take the life of their child. Their child is the victim….
[O]ver 70% of women who choose abortion are Christians…. These are women who go to church… who sit in Bible studies… who attend Mass… who lead praise and worship groups… daughters of pastors… wives of deacons… you name it, they are having abortions. Why would these women have abortions? Don’t they know it is wrong? Sure they do. Why do we all sin? Why do you sin? We justify it. We rationalize it. We think we just HAVE to….
A counter thought from moderator Carla Stream, also a post-abortive mother who runs the Wisconsin branch of the post-abortive ministry Operation Outcry:
Women are victimized by abortion. Women are victims of those who prey upon them for a price in what can be a very desperate time. We may have been victims at the time of our abortions. We may have been forced or coerced by lies of omission by the abortuary staff. We did not have informed consent. We did not see the ultrasound of our babies. We might have thought it was the right thing to do. We didn’t know then what we know now.
When one walks through abortion recovery there is indeed a step of responsibility to be taken. We were there, we paid for it, we consented. We accept the part we played in the death of our child. We are Silent No More and tell our stories on capitol steps and testify in court to the harm that abortion has caused.
We are no longer victims when we begin to speak out about how abortion has hurt us and reach out to other women hurt by abortion and show them the way to healing.
What do you think? Are aborting mothers victims or perpetrators? Or perhaps it depends on their unique situation?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Both women say the same thing in the final analysis: the abortive woman must take responsibility for her actions at some point. That is where her healing begins. Abby just takes a more hard-line approach, because that is her personality. Whether gentle or hard-line, they both wipe away the “victimhood” identity when responsibility is assumed.
Mothers are victims of their own ignorance to the seriousness and reality of what they are doing, which is murdering their baby in the womb. The baby dies and the mother is wounded for life. More eyes need to be opened, and hearts convicted to the seriousness, and the consequences of killing a baby, we were fooled by the idea that it is just a fetus or embryo, but no longer should that be justification for this crime. As modern technical capabilities have enabled us to see the child in its infancy, recoiling from surgical instruments designed to snuff the child’s out. And in so doing, acknowledging pain. Educating the public needs to be increased and there needs to be an abolition imposed on abortion, may God have mercy on us for the present day holocaust of abortion.
I disagree with Abby. Most women who have abortions do have a great deal of responsibility (women who truly are forced are the exception), but, equal responsibility to the doctor? In many or even most cases, I think not. The doctor knows *exactly* what he is doing, and is under no emotional stress. He [generally speaking] is not being manipulated or coerced in any way. He has all the relevant medical facts. He chooses with his eyes wide open. Abby herself has admitted that they lie to women, manipulate them, coerce them. She even wrote a blog post once apologizing to all the women she hurt while she worked at Planned Parenthood. I’m Catholic (and Abby is on her way to becoming Catholic as well, last I heard), and in our beliefs, your level of subjective guilt has a lot to do with your level of knowledge and consent. I’m sure there are women who do have full knowledge and full consent and are not victims of lying doctors and staff. But I don’t think that describes a majority.
Perpetrators.
Perps totally.
I don’t see these roles as being mutually exclusive. Those who are abused often will abuse others (another way of saying “hurting people tend to hurt people.”).
I also think Abbey is wrong in not acknowledging the victimhood – women as perpetrators are victimizing not only the child, but also themselves.
The degree of victimization is a matter of the circumstances. A 14 or 15 year old girl dragged to the clinic by her mother, being shunned at home for her pregnancy, rejected by her boyfriend and friends is victimized for her feminine fertility. Giving in under duress is hardly guilt-free, but it’s not the same as the 22 year old who’s on her 3rd abortion and laughs about the situation. Sin hardens the heart, and in turn increases the cruelty (it’s a hell of our own making.)
So I don’t see it as either-or, but the ability to heal and recover definitely has something to do with acknowledging your pain and destructive actions.
They are always perpetrators, sometimes victims. They have to walk into the abortion clinic before they can fall victim to the lies. Ultimately the final decision is their own. They become victims to a lesser extent when they are desperate to believe the lies in order to ease their own perpetrating conscience.
Sorry - in spite of the contrived speech and what appear to be convincing lies, all mothers know exactly what they are doing when they slaughter their children, they know it is wrong, and they know it was their decision.
They are not victims. They are murderers.
I am continually impressed with Abby’s insight and candor.
We know that many post-abortive women are victims…. victims of lies and pressures, feeling desperate and trapped and alone. I’ve seen many women cry as they leave an abortion clinic. They did not want this “choice.”
But…. in our compassion to help these women, we are misguided in denying their own guilt. As Christians, we know that our first step toward healing is admitting our fault and begging for forgiveness.
At some point in the healing process, we have to help the post-abortive woman say, “I was in a terrifying situation, and then I did a terrible thing.” She feels her own guilt, quit acutely. We do not help her by denying it.
Del,
We help a hurting post abortive woman by being a safe person that listens to her abortion story. Listens without judgment or condemnation. The first step is unconditional love.
You don’t have to “help” her say anything. You can’t “deny” the guilt she is already feeling.
MaryR,
I like what you wrote very much.
If you are hurting after your abortion please find a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat near you.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
or you can email me. You can pour out your heart in an email as so many hurting women have.
carla@jillstanek.com
I for one would like to know where Abby’s statistics come from, in regard to 70% who get abortions are Christians? You can’t be a true Christian and get an abortion. They just think they are Christians. or given an option of many faiths decide on checking off Christian, but not really understanding what Christianity is.
The statistic comes from http://www.guttmacher.org.
I think it’s a little bit of both. We live in a culture that has been telling people that abortion is acceptable, that it doesn’t hurt anyone, and a thousand other lies. And there is a very dedicated group of people pushing to make the lies louder. We’d be idiots if we discounted the impact of that environment on women with unplanned pregnancies.
But, at the same time, environment isn’t the beginning and end of making a decision and when a choice is made the person who makes it is responsible for it. You cannot simply dismiss a person’s deliberately made choice because they were under pressure to make it. Nor can someone be entirely excused for doing wrong even if doing right would have been very difficult.
The fact that someone lives in a culture that permits wrong acts does not make those who choose to do them any less responsible for that decision. The fact that someone does a wrong act does not make them any less human and comprehensible and sympathetic. I say both.
I really think they are both at once. Like Stockholm syndrome, or the Jews in the camps who helped the guards and told on escape plans/picked who went to the ovens etc. They perceive a life or death situation for themselves (and in these two cases that’s accurate) and make decisions totally unlike themselves purely out of survival instinct.
Women seeking abortion (I believe for the most part) are not in their right minds at the time. They are perceiving a crisis, the pro-death society has a large part in that, and the abortionists and pro-aborts prey on it to increase their anxiety, turn it into a “them or you” life or death situation (when it’s soooo far from one) and rush them to the decision that the pro-aborts (not the woman) will benefit best from. Women go in thinking they have “no other choice” as I heard so often on the sidewalk in front of PP. How pro-“choice” is that? But anyway, they feel backed into a corner by family/friends/society and are in fight or flight mode. Not the best time to make life or death decisions for others!
Have you ever made a decision while panicked or rushed? After it went badly you think back and see in 20/20 all the other choices you COULD HAVE made that you didn’t see at the time. Should have’s and would have’s haunt you and you tell yourself it wasn’t your fault, you “had no other choice”. And that’s only half true, but you only know that now looking back. Of course you were there and you did it, so in that way you perpetrated the act, you ARE guilty, but in a bigger way you are a victim of your circumstances. Both victim and perp at once.
Abortion minded women need to be informed, FULLY informed, not just about their baby’s development, but also about ALL the alternatives out there! They need to know there is support, both financial and material, and loving support for them and their baby! There should be mandatory waiting times (longer than a day or two) so the panic of the second line can fade a little and mom can have time to develop a more realistic perception of her situation.
It might also help to remind them that pregnancy lasts almost a year. A lot can change during that time. You’d be surprised how many people don’t know that. They act like the baby is coming that week when they see the positive test saying “I can’t have a baby NOW!”
When we became pregnant with our youngest it was during a time of extreme health problems for me and my husband had just lost his job of 10yrs (this was during that crash of 2008). So many people asked me if I was considering abortion because of our situation! And they would act like I had just solved the most difficult riddle for them when I would remind them, “The baby won’t come till next year, a lot can happen during that time. All this can change!” and they’d be all, “Oh yeeeaaah. Hrmmm, I guess so!” Geez.
In the final analysis; The Mother, the Child and the Abortionist for that matter are all victims of Satan and his evil lies.
I do not believe we can make an overall comment that “women are not victims.” I was highly offended by the comments made by Abby Johnson. I do believe each abortion situation has to be looked at individually, just as each woman is an individual. At 17 I had been told by my ob-gyn I needed to have an abortion due to the health of myself or my baby. I did not want an abortion. I begged for a second opinion. I was taken to an abortion-mill after being told by my mother I would receive a second opinion by the doctor at the clinic. I was 17 and trusting my doctor and my mother. At the abortion-mill I was asked to lay-down on a table thinking I was about to be examined. I was laying back when a light caught my eye. I looked up to see the abortionist with syringe in hand coming over his head. I was in shock and horror. At that moment I tried to get off the table. I was quickly shoved back down on the table and held down by the nurse, as the doctor was injecting me. It all happened so fast. I could not believe what had just happened. This is victimization. I had already spoken with this doctor earlier and he knew I did not want the abortion.
Abby Johnson’s “candor” is harmful to a parent seeking healing after an abortion. To tell a woman that she is ‘this’ or she is not ‘that’ after an abortion is harmful,.
I was seventeen when I learned I was pregnant for the second time – eighteen when I told my parents, eighteen when they decided for me – no discussion – that my son’s life would be terminated. I had no other means of support outside of my family.
I had never heard the word “abortion”. I had never thought through what their solution for me was … I was not given the time to think – the abortion was done within 40 hours of them learning about my pregnancy, including a flight out of the US to Japan where abortion was legal.
I was a victim of over controlling parents – I am no longer a victim, though. I recognize that my child’s life was terminated. I recognize that I was not in a position to defy their desire that I have an abortion. I have accepted responsibility for being a naive 18 year old that permitted my child’s life to be terminated. I do not take responsibility for the decision (or as you say “choice”) to have had my child’s life terminated for it was beyond my control.
Please Abby – you have done much good – please stop telling women that they are not victims of what happened. One can be a victim and one can decide not to live as a victim of circumstances that were beyond their control. You may not have been a victim – you may have known full well what you were doing with your abortions – some of us were not so fortunate.
Either way – the hell that we live as post abortive mothers and fathers is real – and only through the grace of God can we begin to heal. For those wishing to receive help after an abortion, please contact Rachel’s Vineyard Healing Ministry, 877 HOPE 4 ME.
GreenRiverLyle: “You can’t be a true Christian and get an abortion.”
Christians sin each and every day. What we call “large sins” are no different in God’s eyes from what we call “little sins”. Christians sin by being sexually active outside of marriage. Christians can be overcome with shame at the idea of facing others with the proof of their sin. Shame and fear lead Christians to do things they shouldn’t.
Christians also judge others. God is the only One who knows who is a “true” Christian. We humans would be wise to leave that judgement to Him.
There is a wide spectrum from wholly victim to wholly non-victim. That level of victimization needs to be dealt with between the woman and God. Each woman has a level of accountability, but our responsibility is to point that woman to the Christ who can Heal her, and stand with her and love her unconditionally while she grieves.
Hi Abby, I thank God for your cross over from PP to a voice for those who as yet have none, I am not finding the statistics on 70% of abortions are Christians, in the http://www.guttmacher.org/ that you provided, or any mention of pastors daughters? I am finding 70% of abortions are done in specialty clinics, and 68% of religious women use contraceptives. but not the statistics you mention?
Suzi and Lee, I’m so sorry for what you have been through. How awful.
Clearly, at least some women are victims of abortion.
MaryR, your comment rings true to me.
Clearly the little ones aborted are always victims. Many women abort despite knowing this. Many others do NOT know enough about fetal development. Otherwise, why do so many women change their mind after seeing an ultrasound image?
The stories of women being coerced and forced into having abortions are real. Seems cruel to me to deny this. Even if they are not in the majority, their stories should not be ignored.
greenriverlyle,
http://www.guttmacher.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf
Page 27.
As far as the Christain women Abby mentions yes I think they know full well what they’re doing and have no excuse for them to claim ‘victimhood’.Same with those who fully agnolege that the child in the womb is human and continue to say ‘my body my choice’ and simply don’t care and I have had prochoicers say that. Those women have apsolutly no excuse and quite honestly disgust me . However some women, especially very young women, truly believe the lies that are out there and they really dont know that their child is just a blob of cells, like cancer. In those cases I think they are victims of lies, and they more than likely realise the truth later, they realise they and their child were victims to a terrible lie. If theyhonestly dont know better and believe the lies out there then they are victims in that sense but in any other case then i do agree with Abby, but those who agnolege their deed should be treated with kindness and let then know that they can be forgiven.
I lean more towards victims. People seem to forget that abortion has been legal for forty years, and it is constantly touted as just fine. My generation certainly grew up with the idea that it was ok. The women I knew who have had abortions have all, without fail, gone into it thinking it would be fine, and come out devastated or depressed without really understanding why. To sit around and call these women murderers, like I have seen some commenters do, is really disgusting to me.
While I know that study about “survival instinct” is true, women do think their lives are over when they face an unplanned pregnancy- I think this speaks very ill of women. They all know they won’t DIE if they have a child, but that they think the lives they WANT to live will be over (i.e. having to drop out of school, having a connection to the father of the baby, changing their perfect plan). So it’s not about “survival”- it’s about lifestyle- women killing their baby to live as they please.
Now, the culpability in that varies, as some think “it’s not a baby yet” and so forth, but the way pro-lifer paint women’s motivations as destitution or desperation isn’t altogether true- Especially when pregnancy does not mean parenthood and the option of placing for adoption is known to virtually everyone. Women are victims of coercion, lies, misinformation and exploitation in general. I do believe that. But I wish we could be honest about why women abort. They abort because they don’t want to be pregnant. The reasons for not wanting to be pregnant may differ, but that’s the truth.
@ learning; I have seen page 27, it says 1 in 5 of born again or evangelical are abortion patients, The high percentage is among Catholics, not all faiths are truly Christian, if it is not in the bible than your claims are false. I am talking about born again or regenerated Christians, one who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, one who has allowed Jesus to move in to our hearts, the Holy Spirit, One under this condition with God can not make a decission to have an abortion as our hearts are convicted of sin by the Spirit within, unless they are in a back-slidden condition.
@ laura; yes there is forgiveness in Jesus and that is always available to those that ask, with a repentive heart, and confessing our sinful nature, but without that laura, you will not be forgiven, no matter how much you profess to be a Christian, I am only saying what God has written for all to know, I do not judge anyone, as it is the sin we abhor, not the sinner, and you are right sarah, in the end it is Gods final judgement that anyone needs to be concerned about, blessings
Regarding Christians and whether or not they are the highest aborters … some people are cultural Christians – you know, my mom was a Catholic, or my grandfather was a Baptist minister ergo I am a Christian.
Curious to know if PP asks women who are having abortions what their religious affiliation is – is it on the intake form?
I agree with Chris, it’s not mutually exclusive. Women are perpetrators unless they were forced (not coerced or persuaded, but actually forced to do it). Suzi, I would argue your case comes close to that and that you were actually a victim of assault. Without doubt women bear different levels of culpability based on their knowledge and individual pressures. That we can’t judge. But they were complicit, to varying degrees, in the perpetration of a horrible wrong against their children. Some bear as much of the guilt as the doctors, others less.
I would also say that all women are victims of abortion whether they know it or not b/c abortion hurts women.
If they hve not had an Ultrasound to show the Mother her BLOB is a BABY, they have been decieved. If they were told it is SAFE when it has been proven over and over it is dangerous with many girls-women dying during or after an Abortioin, they were victimized. Girls-Women depended on the facts they were given to Protect them not destroy their chance of carrying another baby to term. If they were not Victims, why have so many Abortionists been ordered to pay the victim vast sums of Money in Courts of Law.
To say that a woman is a perpetrator if she has had an abortion is wrong. Plain and simple wrong – so please stop. There are millions and millions of women who have had abortions and they are hurting – the fathers of the babies are also hurting. When you write that they are perpetrators you are further injuring them.
Please think of the woman who was caught in adultery. Christ did not condemn her, as you who think that a woman is a perpetrator for having had an abortion – he said “He who is without sin, throw the first stone” to those who were condemning her and he asked the woman “Who is there to condemn you?” when the cowards walked away – she replied “No one” and He gently said to her “Neither do I condemn you – go and sin no more.”
I don’t know if any of you who are writing about women being perpetrators have had abortions but I can tell you, you are NOT helping women and men come to healing with your judgmental attitude or perhaps is it just an exercise in words?
[O]ver 70% of women who choose abortion are Christians
Source please.
I would not be surprised if ‘christian’ women abort at rates higher than non-christians.
They are under greater pressure by both the present religious system and the ‘world’ to keep their hidden sin….hidden.
My understanding is the divorce rate for american christian mirros that of the world.
When you don’t include God in the decision about whom you marry then you are just playing crappe’s with yourl life.
Jesus did indicate that it is GOD who does the joining.
Then there are those ‘blind guides’ who teach that abortion is not only a ‘right’ but a holy sacrament.
The jew and the ancestors of american slaves who use the same rationale to dehumanize the pre-natal human that the Nazi’a and the slave holders employed to excuse theri barabarism are a wonder to behold.
I believe Chris reminds often that Jews in Israel have one of the highest abortion rates of any of the developed nations. Israeli Jews are doing to themselves what the Nazis failed to do.
At the same time muslims are using reproduction as a weapon of warfare to subdue the differrent nations where they live.
If the ‘chosen’ ones will not enter in then the kingdom will be given to those who do.
Carla, you go girl. You gots it.
Depends. I’ve talked to some women who were proud of their abortions, well-versed in human development, fully capable of acknowledging their children were killed in their abortions, and stated with a smile that they have no regrets because those children just weren’t as important as they were themselves. Those women are completely culpable and should be held 100% accountable for what they’ve willfully done.
Other women, as have spoken further up this thread, not so much.
I guess it can be both. Some abortive moms ARE victims. Some are not. I think of Abigail Seidman’s mother who used abortion as a way to engage in satanic worship (which Abby Johnson denies btw, and told Abigail to be quiet about it).
I just don’t care one whit about a single thing Abby Johnson has to say. She is so double-minded. She speaks about how wonderful and saint-like abortion workers are and how deceived they are but she wants to chastise women who abort? Excuse me? I have way more sympathy for the moms in desperate situations aborting than I do for the clinic worker who sees the mangled bodies but doesn’t care cause she makes a nice hefty paycheck from the blood money.
Let Abby Johnson lecture PP before she turns her self-righteous know-it-all attitude on moms suffering after an abortion. They don’t need Abby’s lecture of guilt.
A little from Column A, a little from Column B.
While there is lots of information around that leaves nothing to the imagination about human gestational development and it is virtually impossible to not come across this within 5 minutes of hitting Google (or having a sex ed class); there is also lots of seducing information put out there by predators in the abortion industry who are desperate to make a quick buck out of a woman in crisis (and hope for some return business).
Women in crisis are desperate and impressionable people who can very easily be taken advantage of. What about women under threat or force from partners or family (and we’re talking real threat force). What about Lee or Suzi? Victims.
Some are just outright, clear thinking, callous perpertrators. Not victims.
The ‘non victims’ give the ‘victims’ a worse name. They make it harder for people to want to help them heal. In effect, they are double perpertrators.
“I just don’t care one whit about a single thing Abby Johnson has to say. ”
I agree with you, she has always seemed self-serving to me. Though, you do have to wonder how much is guilt from being a party to abortion. By pushing more guilt onto the aborting women, she absolves herself of some. But yeah, I really dislike the shaming attitude that she has.
Hi Jack, I would be more understanding of her attitude if she also had that hardline attitude with abortion workers. But she does not.
I could go into a whole laundry list of the things that make me raise my eyebrows when it comes to her but we are to attack ideas not people so I’ll refrain.
According to the Bible (the absolute authority in matters of morality), the sexually immoral & murderers will not enter the kingdom of heaven but they will be cast into the lake of fire. By this we know that God ascribes the guilt of formication & murder directly to the aborting woman. Therefore, by His Word, we may know that mothers are not victims, but perpetrators in need of forgiveness & redemption. This does not exclude any & all those who played a part in helping, supporting, pressuring (actively or passively) or those who looked the other way & failed to intervene to save the life of the child from guilt. Far from it!. These too are guilty before God & the wages of their sin is also death. Oh, may we stop the justifying & obfuscating & extenuating & denial of legitimate guilt for the evil violent sin of child-murder. ‘the only real ‘victim’ is the innocent child who is brutally slain by the very person who shoukd have loved him or her most. Victim’ is a humanistic/therapeutic term which has been incorporated into pseudo-Christian ‘recovery’ organizations regarding the sin of abortion because of syncretism. It is UN-biblical to call aborting or post-abortive women ‘victims’. Abortion is an elective medical procedure. Let all who are guilty of transgressing God’s moral Law repent (confessing & forsaking their sin) & cast themselves at the mercy of Jesus Christ. Christ & Christ alone has the power to forgive sin, by His atoning Blood. Jesus said: “Unless you repent, you will perish” & “You must be born again!”
Amen Lifesong! God bless you!
I think it’s the attitude of “Well, if only so-and-so hadn’t done _blank_, none of this would have happened and I wouldn’t be in this mess right now.”
The abortion worker’s going to blame the mothers, and the mothers will blame the abortion workers. They both share a lot of the guilt though (depending on the situation, see my former post above), but they’re both going to see the situation that way because it’s a coping mechanism. I feel sorry for both. I actually kinda rather feel sorry for Abby, as she has both of those things hanging over her. I think she probably goes to the mother-blaming aspect of it because that’s where the lion’s share of her guilt lies-as a provider. And that makes sense. 2 personal abortions vs. literally thousands of other peoples’ she’s got on her hands. I wouldn’t be her for a million dollars.
Lifesong – you use bible verses as a sword – and woe to you for doing that. God desires mercy – and He forgives us. I would hate to have to have you as my judge – but wait a minute! I don’t! Thank you Lord and save me from judgmental people like Lifesong!
Lee: Lifesong did mention that God forgives. I think Lifesong’s point was that what God forgives is, after all, real sin — sin that threatens to seal our eternal fate unless we avail ourselves of Christ’s atonement.
Whether a person is in one sense a victim does not really change whether in another sense they’re guilty of sin.
There’s only one Victim in history who atones — and even He didn’t count Himself a victim.
Does anybody know what Abby advocates then for abortive mothers in her perfect world of illegal abortions? Eligible for the death penalty if that is what the state law calls for?
Lifesong needs to read your post Lee!!!
Thank you Lord for grace and mercy and forgiveness!! Thank you Lord that those that loved me through abortion recovery never came at me with fire and brimstone and a “You’re going to hell!!” I am forgiven and set free!!! I was broken over my abortion and they led me home.
Love wins.
To my brother Ken,
You gots it too!!
To say women are perpetrators of an action is to judge the action! It doesn’t exclude mercy – that is nonsense. Jesus didn’t say the woman didn’t perpetrate the crime of adultery either. She did. Does that mean she doesn’t deserve mercy? Of course not!!
I’m sorry – all this tiptoeing drives me crazy. Women walk into abortion clinics and pay doctors to kill their children. Age, situation, pressures, knowledge, coercion, lying doctors, pro-abortion propaganda etc – all play a role in her degree of culpability and understanding of what she’s doing, but that IS what she’s doing in reality. She feels guilty because there is something to feel guilty about! Are there situations in which there is literally no intent on the part of the woman – I’m sure there are some. But pressures and coercion don’t relieve responsibility. If a woman walks into a store and steals medicine that she can’t afford for her children, she is a perpetrator. She is a perpetrator even though she’s sympathetic, even though she has pressures in her life that made her feel she had no choice.
Everyone talks of accepting responsibility for their abortions, but gets mad when someone suggests there is responsibility to be accepted. I have never had an abortion, but I’ve done plenty of things I’m ashamed of. I am the perpetrator of many sins. Some involved only me, but most involved a host of accomplices and enablers. I am still a perpetrator. And to say so is not judgmental.
Who is tiptoeing??
You stated what you believe.
Feel better?
The following story was on one of the pro-life blogs (I can’t remember which one now) back when the horrors of Kermit Gosnell’s so-called “clinics” were first coming to light.
Fifteen year old Robin didn’t want an abortion when she went to Kermit Gosnell’s clinic. She was brought there by an adult relative who wanted the abortion. So Robin just thought she’d tell the doctor about her preference to not abort and be on her way. But Gosnell had other ideas. “I don’t have time for this!” he screamed at her, before belting her across the mouth. Then he called other clinic staff to come and help control Robin. They soon had her immobilized and injected with a drug that made her lose consciousness. After she came to, the abortion had already been done.
Who can say that this 15 year old was not a victim? She definitely was.
Apparently this sort of thing was standard operating proceedure at Gosnell’s place. Changing your mind about having an abortion there was NOT tolerated. Neither was getting out of it on the grounds that you were being coerced or forced, and the abortion was NOT your choice. They were extremely misogynistic at Gosnell’s abortion clinic. They wanted the women to be obedient and passive. If they came across a woman or girl who wasn’t passive enough to please them, a little physical abuse was used to knock her into line. If that didn’t work, they injected drugs until she was too out of it to resist. In other words, they drugged her into passivity. Then they could move her where they wanted, and do what they wanted, without having to deal with any resistance on the part of the woman or girl.
Sounds like victimizing to me!
There are a lot of cases that aren’t quite as extreme as this, but various levels of abuse and force are used to get women to abort when they don’t want to. Murder is the leading cause of death for pregnant women. It’s usually done to prevent the baby from being born after she’s refused an abortion. Often the father doesn’t want to be a father, but sometimes it’s somebody else who doesn’t want the baby born for whatever reason. Some women abort to stop someone from killing them. Amazingly, the so-called “feminists,” “defenders of women’s rights,” “pro-choicers” are silent about the practice of killing of pregnant women to punish them for refusing abortion. They even have the nerve to campaign AGAINST tightening laws to protect pregnant women from violence.
Remeber that the next time you hear them bleat about “choice” or hear them give a sad sob story about some poor woman and her desparate need for an abortion. They sound like the care so much. But that caring goes out the window fast when a woman wants to have her baby and someone else doesn’t want her to.
And can I just say this loud and clear
ANY WOMAN WHO HAS FOUND HEALING AFTER ABORTION HAS ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY!!! Good grief.
Those that tell their stories of the harm abortion caused them are stating the facts. Victims don’t stand on the Supreme Court steps and tell the world how abortion has hurt them unless they have found the mercy and grace and forgiveness of Christ. We KNOW now what we have done.
And yes I am very thankful I answer to HIM.
So, the people who want to condemn those who have abortions, tell them they are going to be judged and going to hell, what are you hoping to accomplish here? I am pretty certain that kind of talk breaks broken hearts even more.
Seriously, go tell my underage prostitute friend who had two abortions, who bawled in my arms for hours after the second, who hated herself for it, that she is a killer. Tell her to own it. See what healing and forgiveness that brings. I mean, seriously. Are we trying to end abortion, and bring healing to the millions of people affected, or are we trying to make people feel bad?
GreenRiverLyle & Lifesong: Are you not sinners also? Didn’t Christ say “He who is without sin, cast the first stone”? ALL have sinned, and are worthy of death. Isn’t it time to drop the stones and walk away? CHRIST does not condemn. CHRIST offers MERCY to the repentant sinner.
I feel fine Carla, why the snark?
Robin was assaulted. She would fall into the category of zero culpability. 100% victim of assault.
If someone held a gun your head and told you shoot someone else or be killed and you shoot, you have perpetrated a homicide. Even though you were under extreme duress, even though most people would have the utmost sympathy for your actions and your situation.
I believe all women are victims of abortion. All of them. Even the ones who go in with eyes wide open. But most are also perpetrators with varying degrees of culpability. The only women who are not perpetators in any sense are 1. Those who are brought in against their will and the procedure performed against their will (ie assault victims) and 2. Those who have no knowledge that the fetus is a life and no inkling of doubt about any lies told to them on that matter. Those with an inkling of doubt or who remain willfully blind are perpetrators. Most of whom are entirely sympathetic. And all deserve mercy and forgiveness – even those who go in w/ fully knowledge and eyes wide open. There is no sin beyond the reach of God’s mercy for those who seek it.
Carla, no one is saying they haven’t accepted responsibility. Just that there is responsibility to accept. I don’t see where the disagreement is. Is it that Abbey doesn’t differentiate among degrees of responsibility?
Sorry, CT.
I like your post at 11:35 better.
Forgive me for the snark.
We are all victims.
Since the fall of Adam and Eve, death, specifically the Law of Sin and Death has been passed down to all of us. Every one of us has been in bondage to the god of this world, bound by chains of sin.
And we’re all guilty. Because when we yield to sinful temptations, we choose to do so. We are totally responsible:
Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins. 2 You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world.* He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 3 All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
4But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much, 5 that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!) 6 For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus. 7 So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
8God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God. 9 Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it. 10 For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
A counselor friend of mine was helping a client deal with severe emotional trauma following an abortion. She felt dirty, guilty, ashamed, condemned by God and worthless. In a spirit of prayer, my friend took her back in her mind to the abortion room and as she saw herself going through the procedure, she also saw someone else in the room holding her hand, wiping the sweat from her brow and comforting her.
Yes, it was the Lord Jesus Christ.
He’s paid the price for all of our sin. Her abortion was one of the sins He carried on the Cross.
And He carried all your sins there as well.
If you don’t know Him, the best decision you could ever make in your lifetime would be to ask Him into your heart right now. He’s promised that if we’ll turn from our sin and serve Him, that He will come inside our hearts, fill us with His Love, Joy and Peace, and break the power of sin that has held us captive all of our lives.
Do it right now…you’ll be so glad you did.
Then give us a quick post so we can rejoice with you. We can help you find a good church so you can grow in your faith and walk with the Lord.
Blessings!
Jack,
I’m not saying there aren’t prudential questions to be raised about how to bring things up especially in the the context of healing and therapy. I wouldn’t not walk up to a woman who had had an abortion and call her a killer.
But I take issue with the notion that women are 100% victims and that most aren’t perpetrators. I don’t discount all the varying pressures involved. And saying someone is a perpetrator says nothing about whether they have sought or received forgiveness or accepted responsibility. Some have, some have not yet.
As always, Carla – never a problem :-) Sometimes it takes a little back and forth to get an understanding of where everyone is coming from. (not necessarily to agree of course)
I really wish I could explain better than I do that no matter what culpability a woman has in her abortion it is on us to lead her from the darkness into the light. Abortion brings spiritual bondage. All women who have abortions have been deceived.
Nobody that calls a woman a murderer or a slut or a whore has any understanding what that means.
To those not in recovery those words are devastating. Call me a whore today and I can only laugh and shrug my shoulders. I am what God says I am.
It is my heart’s greatest desire to share with women what I have found. And do that with grace and compassion by meeting them right where they are.
I can hardly bear it that women sit in churches(or not)across this country for years with their secret. Like I did.
I truly hope that those hurting after their abortions might be helped by this thread and not hurt further.
Mine is a zeal I cannot explain but when women throw themselves into my arms sobbing I know I am doing exactly what He has called me to do. I will offer to others what has been offered to me.
CT,
My problem is that the judgmental attitudes are probably going to turn people off from seeking the help that they need in the first place. I see it in the same context I see helping drug addicts, or anyone else dealing with an extremely difficult “sin” I guess you would refer to it as. If you constantly hear all over the place how bad you are, which I don’t think anyone can deny is a common attitude in the pro-life movement, you probably aren’t going to come to those people for help. I saw it a lot with the Christian groups who were supposed to help street kids, not all of them but a good portion. Just so much “Repent sinner!” type of rhetoric, rather than simply listening to the person first and hearing their pain.
There is definitely a time to talk about culpability, I don’t deny that. It’s the same thing when treating addiction, abusive behavior, or anything else. If you don’t acknowledge what parts of your situation you were responsible for, you will never get better or understand what went wrong. But this blaming behavior before anyone has even listened to a person, I never see it doing any good. I really think it sends people into the arms of pro-choice groups, who are only too happy to tell women that they did what was best for them, and cover up the real trauma caused.
I would respond, “It depends” on the circumstances (i.e. coercion), whether or not it’s informed consent (the amount & accuracy of information they received), and their attitude and feelings towards the pregnancy and abortion (do they feel as if they have no other choice or are they hard-hearted and gleeful?).
In response to the person who asked if we should punish women who’ve had an abortion: I would like to see abortion providers and abortion referral networks punished with jail time, but not the women seeking the abortion. Rather instead, we should address the woman as a person in midst of a crisis and provide her with adequit counseling and assistance to address her needs, circumstances, and the underlying issues surrounding the pregnancy, and leading to the pregnancy being unwanted.
Consider the person in a mental health crisis who has just slit their wrists (a form of self-mutilation) in a desperate suicide attempt. Although suicide is illegal, do we send them to jail or do we send them to a counselor to address the underlying issues which led them to this desperation?
Keep this in consideration when you consider a woman who has preformed a self-induced abortion on herself (also a form of self-mutilation) or otherwise sought a shoddy abortion provider, in an act of desperation and self-loathing (feelings of guilt i.e. “I deserve this”, anger “I’m angry at others & will show them” or otherwise low self-esteem). All these statements are echos of real women’s voices. You see, abortion hasn’t always been empowering as feminists would like you to believe.
I’m absolutely incredulous that Abby Johnson could write what she has written! Abby managed a Planned Parenthood abortuary. Did Abby ever lie directly, or by omission as to the human identity and developmental status of the babies that she had slaughtered at her “clinic”??
Did she give those mothers fully informed consent? Did she show them sonograms of the babies that her staff was about to slaughter? How about developmental charts and photos? What did she tell those mothers about the protesters outside of her “clinic” and the photos they had of aborted babies?
In truth, Abby was as foul a perpetrator and predator as any other PP manager or abortionist. She helped to victimize a great many mothers, either by commission or by omission, and this piece of hers shows a significant degree of incomplete contrition by shifting her share of the blame to the mothers who were duped.
If we take a step back from Abby’s statement and look at the efficacy of sonograms at CPC’s, we see how women truly don’t know how developed their babies are, and how badly abortionists lie with the “clump of cells” canard. If this is where Abby is at, then maybe she needs to take a break from the speaking circuit and editorializing for a few months while she works on the next level of healing, lest she unwittingly further victimize those who were duped by adding to their guilt and confusion.
Carla writes from the mature perspective of one who has gone through the depths of hell and slowly healed through a lengthy process.
I’ve said this before, that I am concerned for Abby. She had a big conversion and a meteoric, overnight rise in the pro-life movement. It hasn’t even been two years. Hers is an extremely atypical post-abortive experience, as she was also an abortion profiteer.
I’m genuinely concerned that she is being treated and used as a trophy by the pro-life movement, and has not had nearly enough time and space to work through her grisly past, as this post of hers indicates. It’s harsh and garish, and it takes no responsibility for all of the lies that Abby and her staff told women who came in to her “clinic” when they were frightened and confused. She sounds like the unforgiving servant in the parable, throttling those whose offenses are far less than those for which she has been forgiven.
This post has much of the old PP manager’s defensiveness in it, and not a shred of owning up to their culture of lies and deception. It was chilling to read.
Carla, you need to give Abby a call. She could use some of that Carla healing touch.
I am a post-abortive woman of 41 years and my healing process was not immediate by all means. When I listen to other men and women about their abortion stories it deeply touches my heart, not just from my past experience but seeing how much they are hurting. I want to reach out to them with love. The journey of recovery is a process. When I entered into the Catholic Church this began my early stages of the healing process. I believe Abby is still in her journey.
Thank you, Dr. Nadal. Needs to be said.
no way are all of them victims! i knew
a woman who had 8 and consequently had to have a hysterectomy due to the extensive. damage to her uterus.
@ laura; I am sorry if you have the impression that I am casting stones, I am not, I am only relaying what our Lord Jesus has put in the bible for all to know, and we all know Jesus was not one to cast stones, and no I am not without sin, I do however recognize my sin, and repent from my sin and seek forgiveness everyday for my sin, for there is NO ONE without sin. we all have fleshly hearts. I repeat again that I wish no condemnation on any woman who has had an abortion, I believe that mans adversary has blinded all who have had an abortion to it’s consequences, our adversary seeks to kill, destroy and he is the prince of lies. I pray for eyes to be opened and hearts convicted to the seriousness of the act of abortion, I wish only for healing for any and all who have been wounded by abortion, I have a child in heaven that is the victim of abortion, she got the abortion without my knowlege. hence the heavy burden on my heart to speak for the innocent and helpless child in the womb, who by the way is the real victim here, blessings
Elective abortion is homicide. In almost every instance it is some degree of murder.
In the rare case where an abortion is required to save the life of the mother it is justifiable or excusable homicide.
This is human law, but it is based on GOD’ s law. [Numbers 35 10-34, Exo 22:2-3, Deut 19:10, Deut 21:1-9]
Num 35:29-34 29 And these things shall be for a statute and ordinance to you throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 30 Whoever kills any person [intentionally], the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness. 31 Moreover, you shall take no ransom for the life of a murderer guilty of death; but he shall surely be put to death. 32 And you shall accept no ransom for him who has fled to his city of refuge, so that he may return to dwell in the land before the death of the high priest. 33 So you shall not pollute the land in which you live; for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood shed in it, but by the blood of him who shed it. 34 And you shall not defile the land in which you live, in the midst of which I dwell, for I, the Lord, dwell in the midst of the people of Israel. AMP
As far as ’guilt’ is concerned, the ‘law’, neither God’s nor man’s, makes any distinction, between the one who actually does the killing or the one hires the killer. They are both guilty of the same murder.
The blood of the innocent pollutes the land. No expiatiion can be made for this pollution except by the blood of the one(s) who committed the murder or the applied blood of Lamb of God.
By JESUS’s atoning sacrifice, murderers can be forgiven for murder [the shedding of the blood of the innocent.] They can be set free from the curse associated with murder. Their souls can be made whole and thru JESUS they can be made holy.
The the literal meaning of the Hebrew word that is translated ‘murder’ means to lie in wait for your victim and bash him/her to pieces with a stone or metal weapon.
my mom has always said that women’s lib has destroyed a lot of good women and men. we aren’t free we are in bondage!
Having read Abby’s, Carla’s, and Dr. Nadal’s thoughts here, I’m left thinking the truth is all three. I found something refreshing and bold in Abby’s original post. In a way, it is long-overdue that we stop assuming all women are helpless victims. The fact is, women do have to make the choice! What will we do, for instance, when the blessed day comes that abortion is illegal again in the U.S.? What does that mean for women who get an illegal abortion? They are guilty of nothing? No crime? No punishment for the death of their child? How can we hold the “Dr.” responsible but not the mother? We better have a good answer for this.
On the other hand, I definitely hear Carla’s voice as well, and I realize that many women would choose life if they felt they had more support, etc. In this way, women surely are victimized by the abortion industry which lies to them in order to make money. Shaming the woman is no solution and is not honoring the dignity of that woman.
I understand that many women are coerced, lied to, left on their own, and exploited for the sake of abortion. I also know that in our time, knowledge about abortion is not hard to come by. Knowledge about the baby in the womb is not hard to come by. Pro-aborts today are militant in their cry for abortion on demand, without apology. You can hardly call these women “victims.” Women still have to decide, and then they have to accept the consequences.
And clearly, women do suffer the consequences. They do not escape unscathed. I guess what I heard Abby saying is that it’s time to say out loud that it’s not just the doctor’s fault. Abortion is a vicious cycle of manipulation and violence, and only the mother can break it.
Rescue those who are being taken away to death; hold back those who are stumbling to the slaughter. If you say, “Behold, we did not know this,” does not he who weighs the heart perceive it? Does not he who keeps watch over your soul know it, and will he not repay man according to his work?
Proverbs 24: 11-12
The true victim is, of course, the child. However, there are differing levels of culpability in the situation. The abortionist KNOWS all the facts about prenatal development. He’s the one putting little bodies back together after he’s torn them apart. He can only be said to be working to increase his own profit at the price of a child’s life and a woman’s soul.
The woman’s situation is a little more complicated. Everyone, no matter how ignorant, understands that abortion ends a human life. It’s not the same as getting your wisdom teeth removed, no matter how much abortion pushers claim it to be. However, it has been legal for nearly 40 years, and there is a strong lobby (mostly composed of post abortion women and men seeking to resolve their own guilt by bringing more people into the “club”) that tells women that it’s perfectly fine to have an abortion. It’s no big deal. It’s empowering even. Anyone who says otherwise is just an evil anti-choicer who wants to see you suffer!
Women are looking for a way out of their situation, and they listen to who they want to hear. They listen to those who say that what they’re doing isn’t bad, even though they know in their hearts that it is bad.
So Ken, do you believe that when abortion is criminalized, we should put those women in jail? And BTW, the same old testament sources that you quote from also talk about stoning adulterers and a lot of other stuff that the Judaic community has moved far away from. I guess when your wife has her period, she needs to go out to the tool shed until the period is over. Just saying….
Regarding rhe mention of CPCs:
CPCs are often staffed by non-medical personnel dressed in doctor’s coats, and are not medically trained to properly use an ultrasound machine.
The idea of being forced by any government to go in to a CPC to let a non-medical person touch my body in any way, and to let them misinterpret an ultrasound in order to manipulate me away from my legal right to abortion, would feel like an assault to me.
Women are victims in Crisis Pregnancy Centers.
Jane:
I don’t know where you get your impression of CPC’s.
We do know this: Thousands of women have come out of abortion clinics with stories about how they were lied to and victimized.
Remember that the abortionist gets paid if he persuades the woman to abort, and that is the end of his “help.”
Women who encounter CPC’s do not offer reports of lies and coercion.
The CPC typically pays out to help the woman through whatever her need and crisis is. The relationship sometimes lasts for months, seeing the child born and the mother into safety and/or employment.
There are 2 areas I would like to address.
1. Prior to pregnancy both male and female must accept responsibilities to prevent pregnancy. There are always some times (like Abby’s abortion just prior to her being divorced) that won’t always covered with this statement. However, until abortion laws in this counrty can be changed, we must emphasize RESPONSIBILITY and alternatives in preventing unwanted pregnancies.
2. Abby states that 70% of women getting abortions are Christian. I think I can agree with that statistic. Indeed, some Christian denominations are pro-choice (Episcopalian and ELCA (our church is currently in the process of leaving that later denomination)
God bless all those women who need to make difficult decisions. And pray for alternatives to abortion.
i drove. my friend to. have an abortion back in 1994. i was an accessory to murder. my friend committed murder that sad winter day. now we were? protected by the law,but now i wish we hadn’t been. her baby wouldnt be dead! roe v Wade gave us a free pass. do we deserve prison? you had better believe. it! the same amount of time as ypi
the same amount of time as any other. murderers
Actually, Jane, you are either invincibly ignorant, or a liar.
CPC’s do NOT staff their centers with non-medically trained personnel in lab coats. Actually, Dr. Emily’s abortion center in Bronx, NY has a non-medical hack who wears a lab coat, and she is not at all medically trained.
As for untrained personnel using sonogram machines at CPC’s, wrong again. The folks at CPC’s who use the sonogram machines are all graduates of accredited vocational training schools. Many of them are also state licensed LPN’s and RN’s. CPC’s obtaining grant money from organizations such as the Knights of Columbus must have a physician as medical director, trained and certified sonogram techs, and meet a host of other stringent requirements:
To qualify for matching funds, a Knights of Columbus state or local council must:
Locate a pro-life pregnancy care center that is prepared to receive and use an ultrasound machine.
Determine that this pregnancy care center will be able to staff and operate this machine. This will include:
Ensuring the center is properly licensed under state and local laws and regulations to operate an ultrasound machine
Ensuring that the center is affiliated with a medical doctor who is willing to oversee the ultrasound machine operations
Ensuring that the machine will be staffed with licensed and experienced medical personnel
Ensuring the center has adequate insurance for operation of the machine
Determine that the pregnancy care center is not anti-Catholic in any way (i.e. – some centers have individuals who have attempted to lead Catholic women away from the Church).
In a manner prescribed by the Supreme Council Office, submit documentation showing that you have completed each of the above steps.
The rest here:
http://www.kofc.org/un/en/prolife/ultrasound/guidelines.html
I also understand that CareNet has similar requirements.
That was a bad at-bat, Jane. Better luck next whine.
I think it depends on the person & circumstances, especially extreme youth, rape & other extreme emotional distress, &c. (in which coercion would be a valid argument) – but in most cases I’d go with “perpetrators”. Especially given the culture of “choice” – many women (& men) don’t really ask themselves about Abortion as we have, I would suppose anyway.
A woman may be a victim the first time, and that’s a really big maybe. just out of ignorance of not knowing what abortion is, the risks, etc. But that does not excuse anyone, or make the abortionist more guilty. If we really want to know something, then we research it to find out. Most times, getting an abortion is for selfish reasons. I have this problem and I want it to go away. I really don’t think that there are any victims here, in my humble opinion (imho)
Ok.
I disagreed with Abby and needed to write out my thoughts on that. Did and done.
After reading and rereading this thread and thinking about it how about we look at the bigger picture here?
Does it matter?
I mean sure there are going to be prolifers and proaborts that throw out the words murderer, killer, perpetrator etc. There will be those telling us we aren’t victims and those telling us we are. The hatred and venom and disgust for post abortive moms is out there. The love and compassion and understanding is too.
Those of us who have had abortions and carried the guilt and shame and the weight of what we have done know all about what it has taken to get where we are today. We know exactly what recovery looks like and the toll our abortions have taken on our lives and the lives of our families. We absolutely know.
The voices of those that have been hurt by abortion need to be heard. We will be heard. Our voices matter in a world where abortion is supposed to “help or heal or solve.” We are a force to be reckoned with. As someone said here once, “We are the distant thunder.”
So you have choices too. You can hate us or shun us. Judge or condemn us. Lecture us and tell us we haven’t taken responsibility. You can be part of the solution or part of the problem. You can embrace us where we are, listen to our stories, accept that abortion has hurt us and continue to help post abortive mothers reach out for help if they need it.
If you would like to educate yourself I suggest reading Forbidden Grief by Dr. Theresa Burke.
OR
Go to http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org
Read the thousands upon thousands of stories written by honest folks who only want the truth that abortion hurts women and kills children to be heard. Women deserve better than abortion.
I am praying that hearts are softened. It is up to all of us to be a safe place for those that are struggling. We are to point them in the direction of help and healing whether they had 3, 5 or 8 abortions. Whether they knew all about fetal development or not. Whether they saw the ultrasound and chose abortion anyway. Whether they were forced by parents or lied to at the abortion mill. Whether they boast about their abortion as the best thing they have ever done.
IF they are struggling I pray we will all do our best to help them.
If you haven’t read the Quote of the Day now is a good time. :)
Hi Heather,
My roommate drove me to my abortion. Her time spent there that day waiting for me changed her forever. She is now a director of a Pregnancy Resource Center. We are back in contact, share the same passions and will be speaking together at a banquet in the fall.
God heals and forgives those that seek it.
Carla – thank you. Thank you too, Jack B. Truly, all women who have abortions are victims of the lies that have been perpetuated upon our society for way too long. Something about misery loves company.
The extent of the damage, even written out here, by Heather,CT and Lifesong – condemning, using the term killer … murderer … is wrong. We all face our demons in our own ways – if it makes one feel better about being abusive and ugly to another person that is their issue, not the woman who has had an abortion. HOWEVER, it is very difficult for a woman to come forward for healing with such judgmental attitudes, having the bible used as a hammer, words thrown at them, belittling them and stopping them from assistance.
Those who think that they are so almighty wonderful and need to call out that women who have had abortions are this and thus are NOT wonderful in that behavior. They are mean and cruel and have killed using words and your attitudes.
Abby Johnson needs to mature in her pro-life stance – she is in need of further healing – I agree with Dr. Nadal. I have met Abby personally – she is a delightful young woman. She is however, still on the very beginning of her healing – and it takes years to mature in it. I pray that Abby does go on retreat and works towards that end.
AND – does PP actually ask the religion of the mother who is going in for an abortion. No one has answered the question – and if they do not, (and I highly doubt they do) then how in the heck does Guttmacher have that statistic?
I’m. sorry but my opinion stands. murder is murder and as i have stated. i deserve punishment too. there are people in prison. for bad checks. i won’t. go do time but i deserve. it. i helped
murder. someone. my friend and i are not friends. anymore
AND – does PP actually ask the religion of the mother who is going in for an abortion. No one has answered the question – and if they do not, (and I highly doubt they do) then how in the heck does Guttmacher have that statistic?
Guttmacher got the statistic by doing research. You can read about the methodology in the report, here.
Heather,
Your opinion is your opinion. I will not take on anyone else’s opinion. There is only one that matters to me.
Wondering why you would like to live with the term “murderer” over your head when you don’t have to.
You can email me
carla@jillstanek.com
Hey, everyone…I am doing just fine!! :) Thanks for the concern, but my “healing” is working out wonderfully. I have a fantastic spirtual director and work with some of the best people in the world who deal specifically with those who have left the abortion industry.
Am I an overly compassionate person? Probably not. I am pretty hard lined. I realize that. But to say that I don’t care about women who have gone through abortions is ridiculous. I have gone through 2 myself. I have talked women into having abortions. I am not innocent here. But we do have to take responsibility for our actions.
In Austin, we helped a 14 year old girl who was being “forced” to have an abortion. Her mother was literally dragging her into the abortion clinic by her hair. She had scrapes all over her legs from the concrete. She didn’t want to have the abortion. She knew better. She left the clinic. She came to us…the people who were standing outside praying. We helped her. In the end, she knew it was her responsibility. And she stood up for life.
I recently saw something on a post-abortive website that really explained exactly how I feel concerning this.
“This recovery program emphasizes personal responsibility. Instead of playing the “accuse and excuse” game of victimization, this program helps people face up to their own poor choices and deal with what they can do something about. We cannot control all that happens to us. But we can control how we respond to everything. That is a secret of happiness. When we stop wasting time fixing the blame, we have more energy to fix the problem. When you stop hiding your own faults and stop hurling accusations at others, then the healing power of Christ can begin working in your mind, will, and emotions.”
We can no longer live as victims. We are still responsible for our actions. That was why I wrote what I did.
I am frustrated with the lack of accountability taken in the pro-life and pro-abortion movement. I have taken responsibility for the two children I killed (that were my own) and the thousands of others that I was party to. That is my burden. I don’t deny what I did. Did I coerce people to have abortions? Yes. But these women made appointments and walked into my office long before they sat down with me. That responsibility is on them.
I have worked with many women on healing after their abortion (I am a therapist). It is amazing when women decide to take responsibility for their actions and their part in the abortion. And I’m not saying the women on here haven’t, by the way.
Either way, this whole conversation has gotten way out of hand. All of a sudden, I am immature and whatever else…
Apparently, you can’t have a different opinion in this movement without getting slammed for it or “needing healing.”
I am extremely disappointed at some of the comments that I have seen on here against me. This type of division is exactly what the pro-abortion movement thrives on.
Many blessings to all of you.
Abby
carla i didn’t. mean. to be rude. hope you are well i am typing. from the. most. annoying. iPhone keyboard
can’t even c. hugs i miss u
Jill i just saw Jon
@ a video called freedom to kill. Abby i am just now hearing your story and i was very impressed
sorry. should. say i saw you in the video. my. husband got it for me and u were in. it
To answer the original question – neither.
Below is the “religion” quote from the Guttmacher report – This is self-reporting on a voluntary survey. Only 13% surveyed self-identify as “born-again or evangelical” and this would necessarily include the number of college-age girls who have been raised in a devout Christian home, who WOULD self-identify that way, but most likely were in a rebellious state when they became pregnant, logically speaking. The percentage of women of college age seeking abortions in the surveys(18-24) is 44-45%, just the 18-19 year olds are 11-12%. The 18 or 19 year old may still self-identify as born-again more readily than an older college student. Draw your own conclusion.
It is a LOOOOONG stretch to say the majority of aborting women are truly Christian. In the Guttmacher surveys they are reporting what denomination they and/or their family belong to. Guttmacher rightly calls it an “affiliation,” which to me is WAY different than being a committed member of a church body.
I have a lot of problems with the veracity of Guttmacher data and the extrapolation and refinement of that date in their reports. They are the fox in the henhouse, as it were.
Here is their statement:
Religious Characteristics
Almost three-quarters of women obtaining abortions in
2008 reported a religious affiliation. The largest proportion
were Protestant (37%),* and most of the rest said that
they were Catholic (28%) or that they had no religious
affiliation (27%).
Jack,
I appreciate the concern you have for getting people help. But is there no forum where the realities surrounding abortion can be discussed without people being accused of being judgmental? To take your example of drug addicts – must we never speak of them as anything but victims for fear that an addict might see someone suggest they bear some responsibility and avoid seeking help b/c they feel “judged”?
If you constantly hear all over the place how bad you are, which I don’t think anyone can deny is a common attitude in the pro-life movement,
Actually I do take issue with this. I think you hear all over the place how bad abortion is. In our society, unfortunately, people take condemnation of an action or behavior as condemnation of a person. You may brush off the distinction if you like, but there is a huge difference between I did a bad thing and I am a bad person. The first view is prevalent in the pro-life movement, the latter is not.
Certainly in the throes of guilt and anguish, that distinction gets blurred. Abortion healing rightly emphasizes the fact that YOU are good and loved regardless of what you have done.
When you’re out seeking people to help (as in the street kids you mentioned), it is probably not helpful to emphasize the wrong at first. But if we can’t talk about it frankly here then where can we talk about it? You say there is a time to talk about culpability, but when and where is that time? The question posed was are aborting mothers victims? The definition of victim is: “one that is acted on and usually adversely affected by a force or agent.” There is a sense in which all women are victims of abortion (some more literally than others). But there is also a sense in which “victim” is not an accurate description for most aborting mothers.
Hi Abby,
I am curious as to what post abortive website you quoted.
Also this was your original statement from your blog post.
I do not believe women are “victims” to abortion.
And this is what you just wrote in the comment thread.
We can no longer live as victims.
I am confused and was wondering if you could clear up those two thoughts.
I wanted to thank everyone who commented on this thread. Obviously there can be a great deal of disagreement here. There usually is!!
Lee,
Those who think that they are so almighty wonderful and need to call out that women who have had abortions are this and thus are NOT wonderful in that behavior. They are mean and cruel and have killed using words and your attitudes.
I just noticed that you were addressing me in this post. I personally said that I had committed many atrocious sins. Almighty? What? I am mean and cruel? You yourself say there is responsibility to accept, yet when I agree that women bear responsibility to varying degrees it is judgmental, mean, and cruel? Someone who is nothing but a victim, who is not a perpetrator in any way, bears NO responsibility. None. Her guilt would be misplaced. Healing should be telling her that she did nothing wrong, not that she is inherently loved despite her actions.
Ct,
Sorry if I was overzealous yesterday, I was upset at women being called murderers and conflated genuine dialogue about culpability with that. I agree with much of what you said.
I do disagree, however, that there isn’t a lot of condemnation of abortive mothers in the pro-life movement. I have heard and seen them being called tramps, selfish, irresponsible, murderers, babykillers, whores, sluts, and a whole host of other things. That is language directly attacking the woman, not the practice of abortion. I see a difference between condemning the practice and calling people names, which won’t ever help.
also. Carla. i just wanted u to know that my earlier. comment was directed. at Lee since. giving an honest opinion. made me judgmental in. her eyes.iveare not victims
I haven’t taken the time to read every statement made above, but some of them have left me appalled. I have been involved in crisis pregnancy ministry for almost 17 years now. I am postabortive – my abortion was at age 16. I was lied to and deceived by the staff of the abortion clinic – and was made to believe there was no other “choice.”
With that said — I accept complete responsibility for not standing against those pushing me to have an abortion, even at the naive age 16. But I also recognize everyone else’s role in it. The nurses, doctors, counselors, parents, friends, family, etc. Yes, I was victimized and taken advantage of by the clinic. I had to recognize that in order to forgive them fully, just like I had to recognize my role so I could begin to forgive myself.
Every postabortive woman’s situation is different. Don’t give blanket statements saying they are not victims, and don’t give blanket statements saying they are victims. Let them heal where they need to heal in God’s time and with His help through the study of His Word – that is the only place true healing can be found (not by counselors, spiritual directors, etc.). He is sovereign and will show them by unveiling piece by piece the areas that need attention and application of His Truth. All credit is due Him – may He be glorified!! Being judgmental is not the answer, lest the enemy find success in dividing and conquering us.
Stand United in Christ.
Definitely not victims. But I don’t like the term “perp” either. I am pro-choice and when I had my abortion, I made the best choice for myself and my future. Some women may be considered victims. They truly don’t know a thing about pregnancy. But I knew and forged ahead with my choice. I think that made it more difficult.
I am frustrated with the lack of accountability taken in the pro-life and pro-abortion movement.
Abby, I am frustrated by the lack of accountability taken by YOU. You participated and profitted from your role in the deaths of children and wounding of women. And then you turn around and have the audacity to criticize those people who were giving freely of their time and treasure to counter your actions while you were still killing babies. If I had played any role, whatsoever in the procurement of even one abortion- I would spend my life in penitence- I would not criticize those who tried to stop me from doing evil. I would not dare think highly of myself enough to advise anyone, especially people who are not guilty of my own crimes.
Did I coerce people to have abortions? Yes. But these women made appointments and walked into my office long before they sat down with me. That responsibility is on them.
No, that responsibility is on YOU. They walked in your office and then you pressured them, lied to them and did whatever it took to make sure they didn’t leave with a living baby. Quotes like that one above clearly show a nausiating lack of contrition for your role in the death of children and wounding of women. While I am disturbed on many levels at the pro-life movement exploiting you as a war trophy of sorts, and more disturbed at the platform they’ve given you to speak, I take additional issue with you likewise exploiting the movement for adulation, acclaim and money. I understand that you have to have an income, but I would venture that you make more as a pro-life mouthpiece than when you were a pro-abortion mouthpiece. Do you give the difference back to the movement or are you still profitting from your years killing children?
Gerard: In truth, Abby was as foul a perpetrator and predator as any other PP manager or abortionist. She helped to victimize a great many mothers, either by commission or by omission, and this piece of hers shows a significant degree of incomplete contrition by shifting her share of the blame to the mothers who were duped.
Abbey admitted she was a liar and coercer and that the burden is hers for her role in the untold thousands of deaths she contributed to (including the 2 abortions she herself had). She’s just saying that the women, on the whole, have their roles in the deaths also (obviously to varying degrees). I still don’t understand what is at all untrue about her statements unless it’s (a) that she doesn’t specify the different degrees of culpability or (b) that people agree that it’s true, but think it’s unwise to say in terms of being countereffective at bringing people to abortion healing.
CT: The issue is the hipocrisy. Yes, these women did chose to walk into an abortion clinic, but the flippant attitude, “If they didn’t make an appointment with me, I couldn’t have wronged them” makes me absolutely sick. That’s not the words of a “burdened” person who has accepted her responsibility for wounding women and killing children. Indeed, this is not the tone of deep regret. I understand that sometimes the Lord shelters people from the full weight of their guilt and reveals it in due time, but I can’t excuse someone with such an objective volume of guilt and responsibility criticizing the innocent members of the pro-life movement and telling us about our many, many failures when she was a direct perpetrator of those things that we have tried our best to stop. She bashes the preacher for his silence on abortion when she herself coerced untold women into abortions. I’d say it’s the pot calling the kettle black but this pot is accuse the kettle when the pot is infinitely more guilty and fails to acknowledge that guilt. A truly convicted person does not throw stones at others. A truly convicted person makes restitution. I’ve heard nothing indicating that she donates anything above her Planned Parenthood salary to the movement in restitution. I would love to be wrong on that.
Abby wrote about the 14 year old girl being forced to abort. It was the responsibility of the mother of the 14 year old to support her daughter, NOT force her to abort. It is the RIGHT of the pregnant 14 year old to NOT have an abortion against her will.
The responsibility for the welfare of the 14 year old was placed with Allan Parker, a lawyer with The Center Against Forced Abortion and the CPC. They had to step in before this young girl’s rights were violated.
The responsibility for ensuring that nobody is forced to abort lies with the abortion mill and the abortionist. They must screen for cases like this and REFUSE to abort women against their wills.
If this young girl had been forced to abort against her will she would have been a victim.
http://thejusticefoundation.org/cafa/
I don’t know Abby Johnson, but I have never been comfortable with her. When everyone else was raving about her book, I could not get through it. What I saw was a person who needed healing and had been thrust into the pro life movement as a hero instead of a person who needed time alone with God to heal.
Sometimes I think in the quest to make abortion illegal and to show how wrong it is, the pro life movement exploits and elevates people. What makes a Planned Parenthood Director, and woman who aborted two of her children a hero? The fact that she walked away from something she never should have done to begin with?
I am not judging Abby, in fact, I don’t blame her. All that has happened really fits in to what she has done all her life. She came across Planned Parenthood on her college campus and worked to be on top. She obviously is someone who is comfortable there. She was not there for a month, she was there for years. She walked out and did the same in the pro life movement writing a book within months, and we embraced her as a hero.
One thing I must say however, is I do, like Carla have an issue with her statement about post abortive women. While it is true women have to agree in the end to have an abortion, many factors come in to an abortion decision. This never makes abortion right, but the culpability of the action is certainly different for each individual. A teen forced by a parent does not hold the same responsibility as an adult who freely chooses. Yes, they may know it is wrong, but if their husband is threatening to leave them with three other kids if they do not abort, they truly may feel at the time that they had no choice. Many women certainly are victims, but that does not free them from the pain, guilt, shame and sorrow that come with their decision to abort their children. Only God can free them from that
Again, I am not saying abortion is ever okay, but I think since Abby has decided to be such a public figure she should think about what she has said. She may not be participating in the abortion of babies anymore, but how many women she may be aborting from healing by such statements? No woman needs for anyone to tell them what they did was wrong…none need for anyone to call them murderers or anything else. The judgments I hear sometimes are amazing. Are those who make them so sure they are deserving of heaven?
We are all sinners in need of Gods mercy. Every single one of us. No one of us deserves heaven, it is only through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that we get there…Jesus Christ who died for our sins..even our sin of abortion. Thank God He is the judge.
Hi Abby,
I’m glad to hear that your healing is working out well for you, and your referencing the “accuse and excuse game of victimization” goes a long way to explaining your orientation in this debate. It does not, however, excuse your being dangerously uncharitable toward others.
I was not aware that you are a therapist, or that you had formal training in therapy. As a therapist, you should be the first to recognize that there is no ‘one size fits all’ approach to therapeutics. As a therapist you should also understand that there are varying degrees of conscious participation and culpability that 30 million women have for the same act.
If your comment above was meant to dispel any lingering concerns, I am afraid that it has actually had the opposite effect.
On the one hand, you say that you are working with some of the best people in the world on your continued healing, and on the other that you have worked with many post-abortive women as a therapist. Your self-admittedly hard-lined approach to post-abortive women as expressed in the original post is rather suggestive of the inherent danger of a therapist not having fully resolved their own trauma whilst simultaneously attempting to lead others through the same treacherous shoals.
“Did I coerce people to have abortions? Yes. But these women made appointments and walked into my office long before they sat down with me. That responsibility is on them.”
You have undone yourself with that solitary quote. Coercion (with all of the lies and manipulations that are a part of it) attenuates the subjective culpability of the individual being coerced proportional to the degree of coercion. Your spiritual director should readily agree with this if he/she is Catholic, as that is foundational to Catholic moral theology.
Yes, Abby, they made the appointment to sit before you. But why were many of them sitting there in the first place? You speak of a 14 year-old girl dragged kicking and screaming by her mother and who escaped into your pro-life arms. She knew better. But how many showed up at Planned Parenthood, similarly coerced and did not know better? How many did not have as well-informed a conscience, or as solid an understanding of the human identity and status of the human fetus as that girl?
Quite a few.
Many were there because they had nowhere else to go.
And you did all within your power to leverage that ignorance and fear purely for profit. You pushed them over the edge, shielding them from the truth, and NOW you arrogantly proclaim that they bear a greater degree of moral culpability than they actually do. In so doing, you have demonstrated that you are not yet ready to lead in the area of post-abortion healing, as you have not fully healed from your own self-inflicted wounds.
“Apparently, you can’t have a different opinion in this movement without getting slammed for it or ‘needing healing.’
“I am extremely disappointed at some of the comments that I have seen on here against me. This type of division is exactly what the pro-abortion movement thrives on.”
That too is interesting. People have a differing opinion than yours and you show up to slam them for it, then complain that you can’t have a differing opinion without getting slammed for it. You can’t have it both ways, Abby.
Get used to being disappointed that not all in the pro-life movement like your approach. There are people in the movement who love me, and there are people in the movement who chastise me for the very things that make me so loveable to others. God gives us opposing voices to humble us and to keep us from getting carried away with ourselves. Learn to treasure your opposition, Abby. It is they who will keep you from getting carried away with yourself.
Does the proabortion movement thrive on our dissent? No, they don’t. It makes for cheap thrills, but that’s about it. The proaborts thrive on blood money, on the wholesale slaughter of innocents.
You can’t quell opposition to your lack of charity by complaining that opposition to your lack of charity emboldens proaborts.
Sorry to disappoint you Abby, and for taking so public a stand against another pro-lifer. However, there are many post-abortive women who stand to be undone spiritually and emotionally by your hard-nosed approach to therapeutics, and someone needs to speak in their defense. And that leads me to my final point for now.
You have no trouble being hard-lined with the women whom you victimized. In fact, you tell them that they are not victims at all. That is, until you admit your role in their victimization, followed by a rapid self-absolution (i.e. they asked for it by showing up). Yes, hard-nosed seems to be the Johnson method for healing.
That is until Abby Johnson gets a taste of her own medicine. Then its,
“Either way, this whole conversation has gotten way out of hand. All of a sudden, I am immature and whatever else…
“Apparently, you can’t have a different opinion in this movement without getting slammed for it or “needing healing.”
“I am extremely disappointed at some of the comments that I have seen on here against me.”
Nobody here is rooting for your demise, Abby. Quite the opposite. However, you cannot be an effective leader by violently abusing those you are attempting to lead. General Patton learned that lesson the hard way by slapping a soldier in a field hospital in WWII.
Post-abortive women need and deserve better from you, ESPECIALLY YOU, Abby. You lied to them and manipulated them. You are the last person on earth who should be advocating a hard-lined approach to them.
As I said before, it hasn’t even been two years for you. I simply don’t know how you can be in a position to be telling post-abortive women what is legitimate in the realm of victimization. And again, as a professionally trained therapist you ought to know better than that.
Your area of expertise is in unmasking Planned Parenthood and their tissue of lies. That’s your strength. This foray into the minefield of post-abortive healing has cost you dearly, and you need to back out of it and get back to where you are most effective.
We are all with you Abby. Every one of us is pulling for you, but it is you who fired the first volley, and you did it to your victims, of all people. Take the chastisement in the fraternal spirit in which it is offered and get back to your primary area of efficacy.
God Bless.
Jacqueline – I know very little about Abbey, so I took her statement at face value. I didn’t see it as throwing stones maybe b/c I agree with the truth of the statement apart from any hypocrisy that may exist on the part of the person making it (which I admittedly didn’t look for). I can’t say if she is throwing stones or passing judgment, but I don’t think talking about shared culpability in general is judgmental.
Victims of choice, victims of the lies perpetrated by an industry that hates children (by spreading lies and untruths about fetal development), victims of a society that looks down on single parents, yes!
While I am pro-choice and do not regret my abortion, there will always be a part of me that thinks of the child I never had. Tori Amos, a singer, had several miscarriages before she had her daughter. At the time she said, “You’re not really a mother but you aren’t who you were before either.” I can relate.
I wish women would take more responsibility for their sexuality. Make a guy wear a condom. Consistently use some form of contraception. And while I know none of them are 100%, believe me an unwanted pregnancy and abortion are not things you want to face. My life changed forever the day I saw two lines on that pregnancy test stick.
Olivia. it’s. nice to meet you. your. honesty. is refreshing and you have proven my point i have a friend who was a nursing student at the time of her abortion she was having sex with her fling. every day. i asked her what if u get pregnant. her cold reply i will just have an abortion. and she did
Ken: I would not be surprised if ‘christian’ women abort at rates higher than non-christians.
Ken, the abortion rate among women who consider themselves “born-again” is lower than for the general population, quite a bit lower, as one would expect. Last I saw, it’s around 20% versus more than twice that for women in general.
Both sides in the argument can moan and whine about “propaganda” from the other, but for quite a few years now it’s been simple to google “fetal development” or “baby development” to see how the unborn are.
Hi Doug,
I agree that it is simple to google fetal development or baby development to see how the unborn are.
Although in the years I have been here it hasn’t changed your mind in the slightest to fight for the lives of innocent human beings.
Still praying for you.
CT- You can take the hipocrisy out of it and I still take issue with the words at face value. Even if the writer of those words was blameless towards woman and children, the words still indicate a uncharitable approach toward women and the circumstances they have faced. Circumstances don’t change the outcome, but we all distinguish a difference between malicious acts and acts out of desperation or ignorance, although the damage done by the same act is the same, regardless of the reason.
With abortion, many would not have done what they did if it weren’t given the stamp of legitimacy by being legal. I know two women personally who aborted children the loved and wanted because their abusive boyfriends had threatened to hurt/kill them. One said, “You get rid of it or I will.” So many are taken by their parents under the threat of homelessness and disowning who are insisting on abortion so their daughter doesn’t “ruin her life”- Having spoken with several of these girls, they have the guilt not of freely choosing abortion but to them, they failed their baby and hate that they “were so weak” and didn’t stand up to their parents. Yes, these women all did ultimately consent to an abortion. But these women are all victims. Not that I expect much from people who make a living killing babies, but the clinic workers should have discovered these reasons and offered help- a referral to a domestic violence shelter or maternity home. Maybe the women would have still, not other reasons chosen to go through with the abortion, but no help was offered. Rather, even in lesser situations these “counselors” capitalize on women’s fears to make sure they fork over their money. How can someone call themselves a therapist when they work to sway the decisions of a girl in crisis in order to take her money?
Culpability is shared because many parties collude to kill the baby. The woman can’t do it without the clinic and the clinic can’t do it without the woman- but placing the blame SOLELY on the woman for going to the clinic does not acknowledge the clinic’s guilt. It’s a shifting the blame. Likewise a woman who blames the clinic when she chose freely to go and hand over her money and submit to an abortion is also shifting the blame. Even still, the guilt isn’t a 50/50 split. The clinic is not facing a crisis. The clinic knows about resources and fetal development. Therefore, the clinic holds more of the responsibility in my opinion.
And it continues. Wow.
Abby, if you’re still reading these posts, I just want you to know that many people, including myself, think you’re a great voice for the unborn. It’s awful that so many pro-lifers are alienating you. The most vocal dissenting voices on here have a tendency to be unnecessarily harsh with those that disagree with them. As someone earlier said, Jesus himself told those without sin to cast the first stone. You are not without sin, neither are the women who seek abortions. Jesus forgives all. Shame on those who attack you or speak to you with condescension instead of expressing their disagreement with love and respect. We are all one the same side. This kind of treatment toward someone who is only trying to prevent the gruesome murder of children is so sad. It only serves to divide us and to discourage other people who have been or are involved in this industry to switch sides.
Yeah, Abby. You started it. Do you think you can make accusations and receive nothing but praise and adulation?
I would just like to say again…I am AMAZED at the infighting in this movement. You know why we can’t get anything done? Because we are too focused on bringing each other down. We should all take a step back and realize there is a much bigger issue here. This is not about me. This is not about Carla. This is about these children that are dying by the thousands every day. How about we spend less time talking about how terrible I am…how about you join me out on the sidewalk of a local abortion clinic and do something to save a life?? I think we need to get our priorities in check here.
Oh, how the enemy enjoys this. Shameful.
I’m not here to receive praise, Jacqueline Harvey. I am only interested in serving CHRIST…not you…not any human. But I am allowed to have an opinion…yes, even if it different than yours.
LiferJ, thank you. I do realize the ones with the biggest mouth (and keyboard courage) are the ones who are in the minority. :)
I am AMAZED at the infighting in this movement. You know why we can’t get anything done? Because we are too focused on bringing each other down.
You seem to be focused on bringing others in the movement down. We are just responding. Once again, it is you who is guilty of this, not us. You have criticized the movement for the last 2 years. Your supposed issue with us is my issue with you- your audacity to criticize those who are doing everything they can to save lives- who both are saving lives and were saving lives when you were snuffing them out.
You are wrong if you think all we do is criticize you and not get out there and save babies. All you seem to do is criticize us. I find it interesting that you criticize entire facets of the movement- and that’s “courageous” to you- but when anyone criticizes you, then it’s “infighting” the makes the enemy happy.
You’re right Abby it does need to stop, but it is not just about the babies. It is also about the countless numbers of lost souls because of abortion that Christ wants to be reunited to Him through healing. Each person is precious to Him and He desires the salvation of all.
In the end it is about each one of us doing His will in our lives one day at a time. .
Hi Abby. You can absolutely disagree and share your differing opinion in the pro-life army. However, you defected from the other side and were immediately made a 5 star general when you should not have been. Now you have the attitude “my way or the highway” with other pro-lifers. YOU are the one who can’t seem to stomach anyone disagreeing with you.
I absolutely do not think Abby is ready to be the mouthpiece of the pro-life movement. She may say she is healing just fine, I’m of the opinion she may be HEALING but she is not HEALED. It is evident in all that she says and writes. Someone else said it perfectly, instead of being thrust into the spotlight as the new poster child of pro-life, she needs time alone with God.
Hi Olivia and welcome. Contraception is not the cure all for abortion though. I got pregnant on the pill. I now have a 4 year old son.
I am now 6 weeks pregnant with my second (planned) child. I will say pregnancy messes with your head. This pregnancy was longed for and totally planned yet I feel more ambivalent than I did with my unplanned son. I break into crying for no reason (dumb hormones) I feel constantly stressed and nauseated. It feels very different than my first pregnancy. Fortunately I have a loving husband who does everything he can to make me comfortable and feel loved and safe. I have wonderful in-laws who do the same and my own family who are super excited over this new baby.
I have a friend who is 6 months pregnant and did not have that. She already had an abortion. She withstood incredible pressure to abort this baby she is currently carrying. I UNDERSTAND HOW WOMEN CAN CHOOSE ABORTION. It doesn’t erase the horror of what abortion is and does but I completely understand. I feel much compassion now for women who abort. I’m living the ambivalence and stress right now. Totally love my newest baby but I understand how women can choose what looks like such an easy choice.
Congratulations, Sydney! I’m very happy for you. :)
Congratulations, Sydney!!! I know how badly you wanted a second child. I am so happy for you.
Abby,
YOU are the only one out of all of us here that can speak to what it is like to work for PP! To direct and to lead and to believe all that they told you. YOU are bringing others that don’t know the truth about PP into the prolife movement! I thank God for that!! He delivered you out and you can speak to what that was like!!
What can NEVER be helpful is to post and blog and write about certain topics that for you will take years to sift through. Your own abortion experiences. Your role in selling abortion to women. That will take time. That you do it all in the public eye cannot be easy obviously. But you do open yourself up to disagreements with what you put out there. You are writing your thoughts on LifeNews for the world to see and I will not sit here and allow you to tell hurting women that they aren’t victims. I won’t. It’s not right.
Post abortive women need your care and compassion and grace. You know firsthand the women that were unsure of themselves, that didn’t want an abortion and you talked them into it. You have much to say to them and it is you that can help them heal by pointing them in the right direction.
I am praying you step back a bit. Find some time to think and pray and seek Him. The words you are writing at this time do not convey a heart that is healing.
Jacqueline,
Women aren’t solely responsible for the murder, but few are pure victims either. Most people on this thread have said exactly that, but some people (not you) have taken it as an opportunity to call others judgmental, mean, cruel, etc. Maybe some take issue with the word perpetrator to describe this state of less than 100% victim. I don’t and perhaps that comes from my experience in the criminal justice system. There are perpetrators every bit as sympathetic as women who seek abortions, who are every bit as backed into the corner as some women and even moreso than others. But we have no problem calling them perpetrators not because we judge them evil, but b/c they did perpetrate a crime or misdeed.
The fact that abortion has been legal for 30 years and propped up by an aggressive propaganda machine absolutely plays into the fact that so many women fall lower on the scale of culpability than one would normally expect. But I dont think it uncharitable to point out that many women are not just victims and some bear almost equal culpability with the doctor. Why is it uncharitable to say that women are anything but victims? I will re-read Abby’s whole piece to see if that was uncharitable, but you said you think saying women are perpetrators is uncharitable on its face. Again, maybe this is all just semantics and if a different word than perpetrator was used, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. But I think at least a few people on here would bristle at anything besides “victim”.
@Abby,
You know why we can’t get anything done? Because we are too focused on bringing each other down.
Abby, people in this movement have gotten quite a lot done before people like you and me joined their ranks (I’m a pro-choice convert too – just a few years before you). The focus of disagreement is not to bring each other down but to flesh out positions. So we spend a couple hundred comments debating on a thread – does that keep us from working together to accomplish things? No way.
I do realize the ones with the biggest mouth (and keyboard courage) are the ones who are in the minority.
And you know this how? Wow back to you.
Sydney,
Don’t be afraid! You are a great mother, and God has rewarded your fidelity with the child of your longing. He’s with you every step of the way, and so are we. Enjoy this pregnancy. His divine will never leads you where He is not already waiting to sustain you.
Thank you Alexandra and Jacqueline! Beautiful words Gerard. Thank you for refocusing me.
CT- My position comes from my time working on the sidewalk and with abortion-minded women in general. I am concerned with the polar ends like you- that women are 100% victims or 100% responsible. My larger concern is this mischaracterization of women that the victim mentality suggests; That women are ignorant, weak pawns that don’t make their own decisions and can’t be held responsible for their actions. What I find with women desperate to abort instinctively know that abortion is wrong, yet seek complex rationalizations to find a way to do it anyway. I think most women know that abortion is wrong- regardless of circumstance. Everyone knows that not aborting their baby will result in a live birth in 9 months- and that’s what they don’t want and what abortion is trying to prevent. So on that level, even those women who think “it’s not a baby yet” or have compelling reasons to abort still have responsibility on that front.
This plays into the conversation regarding jail sentences for post-abortive women. Abortion is not a crime in the legal sense, so regardless of how horrible it is, the can’t be held legally liable. But circumstances don’t negate ALL responsibility for women who weren’t forced to abort. Just like I know sexual predators were typically sexual abuse victims, what happened to them doesn’t relieve them of the role they played in doing it to others. Two wrongs don’t make a right. So I can understand circumstances all day long and know that it does play a role in a person’s culpability, but no one who does something of their own free will that hurts/kills another person can never be held blameless. That’s why I support jail sentences for women who abort illegally (one abortion becomes illegal). I have been called heartless and lacking in compassion for this stance, but it’s the only just, logical and acceptable option.
Oh, how the enemy enjoys this. Shameful.
It is hugely entertaining, yes.
I suspect that age influences one’s perspective on this debate. People under thirty or so grew up in an age when nearly limitless information is readily accessible to anyone with a computer and women in both reality and popular culture are often autonomous decision-makers: doctors, political leaders, CEOs. Older people grew up in an era when laypeople were less likely to have access to medical knowledge and we were used to seeing women as housewives, secretaries, nurses, etc–people whose authority and judgment were subordinate to others. I suspect that younger people are more likely to assume that women are informed, responsible actors unless there is evidence to the contrary, and older people are more likely to accept the image of women as victims.
When a woman of sound reason becomes pregnant and knows she is pregnant, she understands she is a mother and will give birth. Might abortion providers tell her things she wants to hear to go through with her abortion? Certainly. From their perspective, abortion is not only not wrong, it may even be the best thing for the woman. So they encourage her. Might she be coerced? People may try, but every person has the right to resist coercion, to run from coercion, to report the possibility of personal danger to someone who can help. No mother of born children easily gives them up to death because she believes she is in bodily danger. How would we ever reconcile such a calculated choice with our understanding of a woman’s maternal love?
Let is not fool outselves however. The vast majority of women enter an abortion facility of their own free will. They understand that they are pregnant going in and will not be pregnant coming out because they are choosing abortion over the personal inconveniences of raising their own child. Women are not victims. They are perpetrators. They very often choose to believe what they need to believe or choose not to think about their choice. It is tragic. It is inhuman. It’s not that they don’t believe that they are killing. It’s that they have been raised in a culture that says that this particular kind of killing is okay. It’s simply a small death of something not unlike us, but not like us enough to matter or be concerned with. They are horribly wrong.
Brian,
I am so sorry you feel that way. Ever spent much time listening at a Silent No More rally?
So sorry that my post abortive women friends can’t bear to come here and comment but are emailing me privately to thank me for standing up for them.
Any advice for post abortive women that are hurting today and just read your comment?
We are hardly fooling ourselves any more. Some of my friends have carried it for 40 years!!
And this is where we are. It is so disheartening.
congratulations Sydney!
Jacqueline:
I am concerned with the polar ends like you- that women are 100% victims or 100% responsible.
No no no, I think you misunderstood me. I think women are BOTH. I think very few women are 100% victim, but most are victims in some way. And I think all women (except those who were literally forced) bear SOME degree of responsibility, though that will vary based on all the factors discussed. I’m not either/or or even a blanket mix. It varies. The reason I brought up the 100% victim is to show that the description doesn’t make sense for most women who abort. I’m sorry if that was not clear.
My larger concern is this mischaracterization of women that the victim mentality suggests; That women are ignorant, weak pawns that don’t make their own decisions and can’t be held responsible for their actions.
Yes – this exactly. This is why I rebel at the notion that we can’t talk about women as anything but victims, that we can’t talk about them as moral agents who bear their share (whatever that share is for the individual woman) of responsibility in the abortion. Somehow that always becomes an accusation that women here have not taken responsibility and/or a cruel judgement of women as killers and sluts. It’s nothing of the kind. All I’m saying is that in reality, women who abort participate in a killing. Very few have no culpability (as would be true if they were nothing but victims). Their culpability varies.
I suspect that age influences one’s perspective on this debate. People under thirty or so grew up in an age when nearly limitless information is readily accessible to anyone with a computer… Older people grew up in an era when laypeople were less likely to have access to medical knowledge… I suspect that younger people are more likely to assume that women are informed, responsible actors unless there is evidence to the contrary, and older people are more likely to accept the image of women as victims.
Lisa, I think there’s some truth in this.
I am not condemning anyone. But for healing to begin there must be forgiveness, and one must also forgive themselves. To do that, a person has to take responsiblity for their own actions. Like any Catholic who confesses their sins, they must first be able to confront themselves and say, I chose this and I did this. It was wrong. I take responsibility. If you don’t take reponsibility, you can’t possibly expect to forgive yourself. Are there factors that influence decisions? Of course, but that does not negate personal responsibility. In the end, we are each responsible for our own actions. No one else. Nothing in the world can make a person do what their conscience will not allow if they themselves do not allow it first. If women rejected abortion, there would be no abortion. It is right that men, as men, and as fathers, reject abortion, but it’s ultimately a woman who says to the abortion provider, “I want an abortion”. Might there be circumstances where this is not quite as clear? Of course. But by and large, women choose abortion because they want to or they have allowed themselves to.
No no no, I think you misunderstood me.
No, I understood you. I just didn’t explain myself well apparently.
Brian,
I have sat with many women friends who are post-abortive and heard them cry about the lies they were told by family and friends, that “it” wasn’t a human yet, that “it” is nothing more than a clump of cells. Those lies got them into the clinic where the same lies were told by nurses, physicians, and “clinic” directors such as Abby who knew damned well that they were lying through their teeth to women who were desperately searching for anything to hold on to.
Your approach is as shallow as Johnson’s. The reality of victimization must be dealt with before any assessment of the degree of culpability on the part of the woman can be made in counseling. The danger in Johnson’s approach is that it denies women this vital therapeutic step and short-circuits healing in the process.
Sure, many knew what they were doing. But a frightful number did not, only to discover to their horror that they were lied to by everyone in their life.
Abby Johnson has proven herself to be just as callous to her victims today as she was before her conversion. The reality is that reality is extremely complicated, and Catholic moral theology makes a great deal of allowance for the amelioration of subjective guilt based upon factors such as lies and coercion, as sufficient reflection and full consent of the will are attenuated by coercion.
How many post-abortive women have you walked the road with, Brian?
and who is to blame for my poor. choices in life?? me
Either way Jacqeuline I usually agree with you 100% and I’m fairly sure I do in this case as well.
If you are struggling after your abortion please call the
National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
Find out if there is an Rachel’s Vineyard retreat near you
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
Many Pregnancy Centers have abortion recovery programs.
Please check into it.
or you can email me
carla@jillstanek.com
The reality of victimization must be dealt with before any assessment of the degree of culpability on the part of the woman can be made in counseling.
Sure, many knew what they were doing. But a frightful number did not, only to discover to their horror that they were lied to by everyone in their life.
Exactly.
oops the first part of my post didn’t show. so the rest doesn’t. make sense
Hi friends,
We’re going to go ahead and close comments, which is something you know we rarely, rarely do.
The discussion here about post-abortive mothers has at times been great and healthy but has at times grown close to toxic. We think enough points have been made on both sides (and in the middle!) to let this conversation go.
Thanks.