The definition of “circumstantially infertile”
Like a lot of women my age, I’d thought 30 was probably an ideal age to settle down. But once I hit 30, it’s was if I hit an oil patch and the years just slipped away. The men I dated either weren’t at the same life stage as me, or simply didn’t have the money to commit to a baby.
Having children is expensive, and I dreaded ending up broke and abandoned with a wailing newborn in my arms.
So to my dismay, like too many of my generation, I’ve become one of the “circumstantially infertile” — a woman unable to have children because I don’t have a suitable partner with whom to conceive.
~ Journalist Rachael Lloyd, Daily Mail, August 25
[HT: The Other McCain]
Aug.29, 2011 9:05 am |
Feminism |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
How sad. :( Life slips by too fast. Even when I was younger I knew that I personally preferred to have my children at an earlier age. My personal goal was to be finished having babies by the time I hit 30 and thankfully I will reach that goal with about a year and a half or so to spare. My parents had children young and I think they really enjoy having grandkids while they are still young enough to enjoy them without being too tired or ill so much. I’m looking forward to the same. I was lucky enough to find my “Prince Charming” at a very young age.
I’d love for her to provide detail as to what she considered “enough money to commit to a baby”. A big drawback to our celebrity obsessed culture is the idea that you’re not making enough money unless you’re a millionaire…
My fiance and I were both in grad school when we met. While I wouldn’t have wanted to have kids while we were in school and not making money, it certainly didn’t rule him out as a partner who would eventually be a great father. I feel bad for Rachael – I know what that pressure is like – but I’ll be getting married a couple weeks after my 30th birthday and probably having kids a year or two later…I can’t imagine approaching 40 and still being more worried about money…
That makes me sad too.
I didn’t marry until 28. Struggled with fertility, miscarriage and had my last one at the totally young age of 40. :) Oy.
I’ll take what I get!!
PS Feeling very blessed today. My two eldest were baptised yesterday. They declared publicly their love for Christ. Oh my heart.
In her line of work, Rachel Lloyd has worse worries than money in finding suitable partners. Most of her day, she’s likely hanging around people who aren’t well suited to reproduction.
If women want to make a family with a man, they have to look for ‘Mr. Family Man’, not ‘Mr. Thrills’. That involves being in the places where that kind of guy can be found.
Those two sets of guys have very little overlap, particularly if fidelity is essential to the ‘family man’ definition.
Kudos to all previous commenters. This is a shame on so many counts.
I met my husband in college, and were married a year after graduation. We however contracepted, and I had our first child right before I was 30. We moved 1/2 across the country and had our second one when I was 37. If we had heeded the church’s teaching, we’d probably have 4 children at this point. Sorry – no do-overs in the reproductive department.
But as we knew better, we did better… We now live the Church’s sexual teaching fully. I am totally in love with the children we have, and am a spiritual mother to many others.
I too feel very sad for this woman, and others like her. Your job won’t be holding your hand and saying ‘I love you.’ Your man won’t be the family-type if that is not what you have been dating/marrying. Having a commitment means not having one-night stands and casual sex outside of marriage. My first spiritual director always said: ‘ you are who you hang out with.’
How hollow it is to pursue the job, wait until circumstances are ‘perfect’ before having the children. I have always told my kids to pair-up well, wait until marriage, and don’t wait too long before having children. Besides all the other factors in this woman’s life, infertility or fertility problems creep in as we age, and even if everything else is ‘perfect,’ the body may not be.
Sad. But it’s not over until it’s over. Miracles to happen. And she can do wonders in helping young children, even if she is not their biological mother.
Pharmer – sounds to me like you’re stereotyping men just as badly as Rachael. Reducing a man’s sense of fidelity and fatherhood to his occupation and/or financial status is shallow and silly. I can quite easily list a bunch of religious leaders and men of other supposedly “respectable” careers who are cheaters, liars, and terrible parents…and on the other hand, a bunch of truckers and rockstar wannabees who would do absolutely ANYTHING for their wives/children and would never dream of being unfaithful.
We have annabundance of euphemisms in our culture. Infertility and supressing/rejecting fertility are two different problems.
That being said, I’m also sad that she may have missed her window of opportunity to love children as their mother. I have a decent career that I find rewarding, and I love being a wife to my husband. But being a mother has been the best part of my life so far, and I know lots of women old and young who feel the same.
Sad story. My IDEAL situation was to get married at 19 or 20 or so and have children. Well…life doesn’t always work out like you hoped it would. I didn’t get married until I was 40, miscarried our first baby three months after we were married, then we had our little girl when I was 3 months away from my 42nd birthday. We’ve been trying to have another baby since our daughter was a year old, but have had four more miscarriages. Have ’em while you’re young if you get the opportunity,ladies…you might not get the opportunity later. :(
But being a mother has been the best part of my life so far, and I know lots of women old and young who feel the same.
I absolutely agree! I always wanted to have another child but my marriage was on the rocks and it wasn’t a good idea. My dream, perhaps when I retire, is to be a foster parent. I think I would be good at it. And of course, I have a 3 month old grandson to spoil!
Single/divorced Christians are, according to God’s command, to abstain from sex until (if) re/marriage presents itself. And if these folks are not blessed to find a marriage partner during their lifetime, they are to remain celibate their entire lives. From an earthly/reproductive perspective, they are typically viewed as the saddest and most loneliness class.
However, God is a faithful rewarder for those who follow His precepts to remain abstinent. Since they cannot earn eternal rewards for being a good spouse and parent, I definitely believe there are other eternal rewards for those who remain celibate or practice “secondary virginity”. Many folks are in this class, especially after having become a Christian or “born again”.
I know some lovely Christian girls in their teens, 20’s and 30’s who cannot find a good Christian man to date – let alone have a relationship. They are pretty and smart with a lot to offer. Single/divorced Christians need to stop focusing on what they do not have and instead focus on their identity in Christ and their relationship with Him. That trumphs all earthly relationships.
So those who have a marriage partner and children in this life do well, but those who are “circumstantially infertile” – well, from an eternal point of view believe they will do as well. They will not be forgotten by God!
LL
WOW Jasper… I didn’t know this was a “how many low blows can I get in one sentence” contest, but if it was, congrats, you win!! Keeping it classy as always my friend. Hope you’re doing well.
Though biologically our bodies are more fertile early in our life, we are bombarded by many different sources to defy this and wait, and wait, and wait. Many people who won’t commit at a young age think you have to sample a variety of partners or you will be miserable in marriage. They cite high divorce statistics to ‘prove’ their point. Well, in my parents generation, how could we have expected their marriages to survive with all the social pressure to cheat, to be selfish, to not be generous because you must be getting something back for every nurturing act, etc.?
I hope our culture adapts to having children young (when we’re biologically most suited) and being selfish when we’re older. It used to be that people wanted to see the world after their children were grown. Now people want to experience everything before their children are born, if ever they have children at all. I for one wish I could get in a time machine and get a do-over.
I don’t understand any critique of this women.
She wanted to wait until she was married to have a baby, and she couldn’t find a good husband, that is sad! There are a lot more beautiful rich educated talented personalbe women then men, it is slim pickings. It is a horrible thing to want to be married and want children and try to have them without settling for someone you aren’t in love with/don’t think you can have a strong relationship with
This women WANTED marriage she WANTED babies, there is nothing that said she slept around forever or put her materialistic pursuits above all else. She could have easily had a baby with a stranger man, there is nothing to imply this women didn’t have high values. She didn’t find someone, it sucks, its sad, but it is not at all her fault
Shannon – the criticism, at least from me, was her statement that she didn’t meet a man with “enough money”. If she truly wanted marriage and babies, the guy’s income wouldn’t have been her first requirement for a second date… my dad was making 5 or 6 bucks an hour working the graveyard shift as a baggage handler when he married my mom – and guess what, 32 years of marriage and 3 kids later, things turned out pretty well for all of us :)
Suggests for Amanda to go back to the first Pharmer post, and inspect it for prioritizing concerns about income and occupation.
The work of a journalist is to seek out news-worthy people. What usually makes a man newsworthy? Good stuff?
She appears to be confused as to the real topic of the post, which addressed the choice between Mr Thrills and Mr Family man, and whether fidelity would be considered an essential component of the latter definition for a woman.
The call to avoid stereotyping on the basis of income or occupation was reflexively found to be quite popular, despite the lack of stereotyping on that basis in the post which was addressed.
When my grandparents married at age 19 and 20, the world and society were different. Expectations of young adults were different.
The problem of marrying too young has less to do with age than maturity. We don’t expect a whole lot from 18 year olds anymore, but 50 years ago, it wasn’t unusual to see people that age marrying and starting families. Divorce has always been around, but the real problem isn’t age – it’s the growing cultural narcissism, selfishness, and immaturity in both men and women. Too many 40 year old men act like they’re 18 – but years ago, 18 year old men acted like they were 40. Society’s been turned on its head. Too many people go into marriage believing the other person is supposed to exist to fulfill them and “make them happy.” When that doesn’t pan out, they split, because divorce is now easier to obtain than ever before, and adultery is viewed as commonplace.
The solution isn’t to simply “marry later.” The solution is for people to – pardon my french – grow the h*ll up.
I’m with you ninek. I think it’s preferable that people have families in their early 20’s. They have more energy and as the parents grow through life (a never-ending journey) so their kids get to see a broader spectrum of life.
Young back-packers and those on ‘gap year’ who travel overseas are all about drinking and having sex. While I personally don’t deny them the right to do so I think their efforts are a little wasted when they are conducted at the end of an expensive airline ticket.
Once the kids have grown up people in their 40’s tend to have a much more fabulous and worthwhile time travelling, going out etc. etc. I think they are actually more open to activities such as new cultural and culinary experiences and achieve greater ‘enrichment’ than the younger ones achieve.
But I may be wrong.
I love you Jill for latching on to really critical topics with a straight mind, and revealing the many facets of hidden things. The term “circumstantially infertile” might just start to spread like a liquid released from its jar. Theologians are certainly going to run with this one. I remember a Bob Dylan line: “You’ve hurled the worst fear that could ever be hurled// Fear to bring children into the world.” Fear was this woman’s enemy, like a shadow that seems larger than the problem it really is. Too bad. Faith is the key that let’s people “see” in the dark.
Amanda,
many people here talk about gender roles and thee importance of men ‘manning up’ yet isn’t one of the major tests of a husband his ability to provide.
Especially if you want to be a stay in a home mom, it is not at all crazy to not want to marry a garbage man or marry a man with less education and less money than you.
The real problem in my mind is men are underachieving. It’s part of the reason many adult women in their thirties and fourties are are just saying screw it and pursuing single motherhood either by sperm donation or just getting pregnant the natural way. Men don’t add as much to the equation. They aren’t as faithful as women, don’t make as much, aren’t as educated and aren’t likely to want to be the primary caregiver of the children even if the women are the breadwinner asking the question if he isn’t supporting me, raising the children and still feels entitled to look at other women, why bother?
“There are a lot more beautiful rich educated talented personalbe women then men,”
If your intent was to sound sexist, you succeeded. Consider “loyal, dedicated, stable, hard-working” could replace the previous superficial list.
“Men don’t add as much to the equation. They aren’t as faithful as women, don’t make as much, aren’t as educated and aren’t likely to want to be the primary caregiver of the children”
Not sure what men you meet, but men make considerably more than women across the country and are normally the caregiver. The men I know who are faithful and act as primary caregivers generally don’t aspire to spend the rest of their life with misandrist women.
“men make considerably more than women across the country and are normally the caregiver.” – Eric
Do you mean breadwinner, rather than caregiver? Because it seems to me that the mother is typically the primary caregiver to the children, even if she works a full-time job as well.
Ninek, Reality, Amanda and Kel!
Great comments! Totally agree.
I would have to add that although I am the 45 year old mommy chasing the 5 year old around the park….he keeps me young. :)
Shannon,
Your comments make me sad.
Correct len, “breadwinner”. Thanks for the catch.
Sorry Shannon, that post just reads like a laundry list of outdated feminist talking points – several of which are actually factually inaccurate. The rates of men vs women cheating have almost balanced out recently, and women continue to earn less annually than men. Oh, and for the record, “garbage men” get paid quite well, and because they are state workers – they get great health and retirement benefits! So be careful with your generalizations!!
Your post sounds nearly as sad as Rachaels if you truly believe what you wrote. You’re right – there are a lot of scum bags out there – and I’ve definitely gone through a dating dry spell or two where I would have agreed with you out of frustration, but there are just as many good guys, they just tend to not stand out as much, and sometimes they’re shy. Before you decide not to bother, give a different perspective a try?? :)
A young man gets his girlfriend pregnant and tells her to get rid of it. Done. Now, when faced with a responsibility of lesser magnitude than a baby, does the same man rise to the challenge? Nope. Why should he? Abortion didn’t liberate women. It emasculated men.
Reality, did we agree on something? Wow! Back when I was young, grandparents enjoyed a certain amount of freedom in their retirement. Now in greater numbers, grandparents raise their grandchildren because so many of the parents can’t or won’t.
I’m with you ninek. I think it’s preferable that people have families in their early 20?s. They have more energy and as the parents grow through life (a never-ending journey) so their kids get to see a broader spectrum of life.
Ideally, yes, also because this is when women are most fertile, but this is also the time when many young people, male and female, are completing their educations and launching their careers.
Single/divorced Christians are, according to God’s command, to abstain from sex until (if) re/marriage presents itself. And if these folks are not blessed to find a marriage partner during their lifetime, they are to remain celibate their entire lives. From an earthly/reproductive perspective, they are typically viewed as the saddest and most loneliness class..
I’m divorced and although I do feel lonely sometimes, I am not unhappy. I have my friends, cats, hobbies, etc., so don’t feel sorry for me! If it is in the cards for me to get married again, so be it, if not, well, it is what it is. I’m not going to hold my breath waiting for “The One’ to come along. Been there, done that!.
Hey Jasper – you still there? After I noticed your post to me was deleted this morning, I half expected to see an apology but I guess that was wishful thinking. It occurs to me that the things you’ve said to me on this website are truly the meanest, ugliest things anyone has ever said to me – either online or in person. I guess this may be construed as admitting to a thin skin, but its got me thinking a bit even though I shouldn’t care. Truth is, I couldn’t give 2 pieces of poo about WHAT you say – but WHY. Why do I get under your skin SO much? Maybe I don’t read posts here as often as I used to, but I can’t recall you being so cruel to anyone else, and even a girl I caught shoplifting at my old job wasn’t as venomous as you are… its especially interesting because your last post directed at me (which was also deleted) was an instruction to kill myself, was at least responding to something I’d said directly to you. This time it was out of nowhere! You’ll have to forgive me, I’m just baffled, truly. And correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t we pretty much neighbors? I wonder if you’d be so mean to me if we met at the grocery store. Maybe I should invite you to our wedding – would you be so bold as to repeat what you posted last night to my parents, or to my fiance, or his parents?
[Edited by moderator]
30? 30!
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha!
ROTFL
Gee, why would a guy want an, uh, experienced, used, woman, broken hearted from all the players who played with her but didn’t want to marry her?
So, she wasted all her good years on cads and now that she is older, heavier and less attractive, she wants a good guy to love her and support her and her kids as she gets even older, fatter and grumpier?
Why would a good guy want her over, say, an 18 year old virgin, who is sweet, thin, beautiful, dignified and has all of her good years ahead of her, instead of most of them behind her.
Look, the woman may be 30, but she is still pretty immature. She expects everything from a man but is not willing to give him much of anything in return. She doesn’t offer him her youth, chastity, respect, dignity, or fidelity(because it is already gone).
If she finds a guy he is going to be a lot like she is. Jaded, selfish and unattractive (or very soon to be) Mostly the marriage minded good men marry young good women. They don’t wait around for used, grumpy 30 year olds.
“And I’m not alone. According to a recent study, 48 per cent of university educated women born in the late Sixties and early Seventies are childless.”
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2029765/Im-childless-I-havent-Mr-Right–hurts-infertility.html#ixzz1WXEq4B53
There you have it. These women went out and took the jobs that men would have taken and spent the money on themselves not their kids. Now they expect other people’s kids to pay their retirement benefits. Just plain facts. Money doesn’t grow on trees, nor do pensions. Now, of course it could all work out jolly, provided every retiree dies the day he retires, but that probably won’t happen.
Hippie, that comment is beyond the pale. It is vile, disgusting, and absolutely one of the most sexist things I’ve ever read in my life. Sickening.
A good woman is more than just a perky pair of tah-tahs and a brand new cherry.
Is she stupid for complaining that the guys she dates aren’t interested in families because she’s dating crapy guys? Yeah.
But no more stupid than a man who marries someone because they’re thin, young, perky, and inexperienced/unknowledgable is for complaining that he has nothing in common with his partner and finds her obnoxious when she opens her mouth for anything besides oral.
Grow up.
a-holes like you were a big help to my abusive ex when he was tyring to get me to stay by telling me how used up I was and that nobody would want me. You and he are both as wrong as you can be, buddy.
xalisae,
She is the one who is sexist.
Read the whole article.
She wants the man to do all the traditional male things. She offers nothing traditionally female.
She expects a man to provide everything including looks, brains, personality and money. And in return she offers none of these?
“a-holes like you were a big help to my abusive ex when he was tyring to get me to stay by telling me how used up I was and that nobody would want me. You and he are both as wrong as you can be, buddy.”
Nah, this chick would be as abusive if a guy were foolish enough to let her, but she hasn’t found a guy that foolish.
I apologize, hippie. I didn’t realize how shallow she was being. No wonder she’s having the problem she is. She needs to look less at money and looks and more on quality of character. That’ll probably fix every problem she’s having, even if she is “used up” and “unattractive”. :P
Xalisae, okay, I was very crass. I should have been more diplomatic. Anyway, I am older and less attractive than she and I sure don’t expect that I would find another great guy should something happen to my husband. That just isn’t realistic. The balance between the sexes is unfavorable for one, more women than men the older you get, plus most good, kind men are still married to their wives unless there was some tragedy, which thankfully these days is uncommon. She put marriage and family low on her priority list, and apparently she put loving and respecting a husband dead last. I mean, what self respecting person, man or woman, wants to be treated like that?
Hippie did use harsh terms, but there’s a grain of truth in that. Many of us know too well that after even a few failed relationships, we become jaded, skeptical, untrusting, bitter, and more. This bitterness cuts both ways; both men and women have been burned by our modern dating habits. Plenty of guys never wanted to commit because Miss Better Than You might be just around the corner. But plenty of girls do the same thing to the guys they date.
I don’t think young people have to sleep around first before they commit; if I had it to do over, I’d cut my sexual partners down to ONE before the steady (and good) relationship that I have right now. It’s hard to tell young people with little experience that all that “sampling” will bring bitterness and regret. We think we know it all when we’re 20, but, wow, we don’t.
Hippie, 39 isn’t old. I’m 53 and feel much younger. Must be that post-menopausal zest thing!
“Hippie, 39 isn’t old.”
Fine. I am not saying she is too old to enjoy life, etc, but come on, to get married and have a family, please. Not saying it is impossible, but it is way out at the margin. And the chick is near delusional thinking that there are many marriage and family minded men who would date her over someone who is early 20’s. Any guy old enough still find her attractive is not likely to want to start a family. Maybe a widower who already has a family, but how many of those are there?
I think you’re being kind of harsh here. Women do start families at this age. My sister had her last child at 39.
…Or…she could find a man who wants to build a relationship with and impregnate her for more reasons than just how she looks in a mini-skirt.
Acting like looks are everything is what got her into the mess she’s in in the first place, and probably what made the men she was with less than fatherly material in the first place, too.
Pamela: My IDEAL situation was to get married at 19 or 20 or so and have children. Well…life doesn’t always work out like you hoped it would. I didn’t get married until I was 40, miscarried our first baby three months after we were married, then we had our little girl when I was 3 months away from my 42nd birthday. We’ve been trying to have another baby since our daughter was a year old, but have had four more miscarriages. Have ‘em while you’re young if you get the opportunity,ladies…you might not get the opportunity later.
Valid points, Pamela, but the assumption is that woman-meets-the-right-guy at age 19 or 20, there, and as you said – life doesn’t always work out like you hoped. No lack of stories where women did have their first kid at 19 or 20 and it didn’t work out so well at all…
That said, I do think the “clock is ticking” sentiment is valid.
She does a lot of young women a favor by speaking up, because plenty of women are also foolishly thinking that 30 is not to late to start looking for a good guy, but the truth truthfully, by and large, it is too late.
Joy: I have always told my kids to pair-up well, wait until marriage, and don’t wait too long before having children. Besides all the other factors in this woman’s life, infertility or fertility problems creep in as we age, and even if everything else is ‘perfect,’ the body may not be.
Sound advice (provided they want to have kids).
___
Phillymiss: My dream, perhaps when I retire, is to be a foster parent. I think I would be good at it. And of course, I have a 3 month old grandson to spoil!
Good luck, Phillymiss. You *would* be good at it, and your grandson is a lucky guy.
Shannon: Especially if you want to be a stay in a home mom, it is not at all crazy to not want to marry a garbage man or marry a man with less education and less money than you.
The real problem in my mind is men are underachieving. It’s part of the reason many adult women in their thirties and fourties are are just saying screw it and pursuing single motherhood either by sperm donation or just getting pregnant the natural way. Men don’t add as much to the equation. They aren’t as faithful as women, don’t make as much, aren’t as educated and aren’t likely to want to be the primary caregiver of the children even if the women are the breadwinner asking the question if he isn’t supporting me, raising the children and still feels entitled to look at other women, why bother?
Holy Crow, Shannon… Plenty of “garbage men” make enough money – heck, US ‘garbage men’ probably make 1000% if not 5000% of what most garbage men” make, worldwide.
That not everybody wants to have kids does not mean that “men are unworthy” in some way. ;)
X: I apologize, hippie. I didn’t realize how shallow she was being. No wonder she’s having the problem she is. She needs to look less at money and looks and more on quality of character. That’ll probably fix every problem she’s having, even if she is “used up” and “unattractive”.
Good for you both – Xalisae and Hippie – to be working it out. There are no certain things that will make a woman attractive to a man (or vice-versa). Likewise, there are no certain things that will make them ‘unattractive’….
Hippie – setting aside the shallowness of your original post (about being skinny and attractive), I have to point out the absurdity of connecting age to bitterness and the imaginary notion of being “used up”.
For a lot of girls in my generation, getting married at 30 does not equate to years of bad relationships and sleeping around… but rather (GASP) … getting through graduate/medical school.
Since starting the final year of school/clinicals, 11 of my 52 degree-mates, including myself, have gotten engaged. Our ages range from 26 to 35, and we have all been in long-term, comitted relationships. I can quite confidently tell you that all 11 of us are energetic, educated, and happy – and I am excited beyond words that the very next step in my life is marriage and motherhood.
The concept of being unnattractive and “used up” is ALL in the mind… and unfortunately, sadly, as X mentioned, is often used to manipulate people in to thinking they won’t find true love. If you don’t believe me, ask yourself why Jesus spent so much time with a former prostitute.
“Hippie – setting aside the shallowness of your original post”
LOL, did you read what Rachel wrote? She proclaims her own shallowness with a capitals S H A L L O W !
“For a lot of girls in my generation, getting married at 30 does not equate to years of bad relationships and sleeping around…”
Uh, huh, 30 year old virgins.
“I can quite confidently tell you that all 11 of us are energetic, educated, and happy – and I am excited beyond words that the very next step in my life is marriage and motherhood.”
Great, I hope it works out, well. All the best.
You represent a tiny fraction of the most intelligent and conscientious folks from among the top 0.01%. By definition not generalizable. FWIW about half of MIT science and tech undergrads are virgins. They are also no representative, nor their experience and dispositions typical.
“The concept of being unnattractive and “used up” is ALL in the mind… ”
Yes, it is, which is why no guys want to marry the old chick. In their minds, she is unattractive and used up. However, their opinion matters, and that is why she is single and childless.
“as X mentioned, is often used to manipulate people in to thinking they won’t find true love.”
First, who is manipulating Rachel into thinking she won’t find true love? She never says that. She implies the opposite. She also never says she is looking for true love. She says she wants to find a guy with a good income to marry her and give her children. She never mentions wanting to love him or give him care and comfort. No, she has had her fun. She said she used her youth and health etc, to party. She never considered wasting all her youthful loveliness on a husband and honoring and loving him. The thought never entered her mind. All she thinks of is what she wants from others, from a husband, from children, from life, from the world, etc. Giving is not even part of her worldview. She probably thinks that her column (the modern equivalent of gossip and self promotion) is her gift to the world.
Just because Rachael was shallow (which I had already pointed out in my first post) doesn’t mean your post wasn’t also shallow.
I’m not talking about her being manipulated. I’ve already stated the reasons why I think she is the only one to blame for her issue – read back in the posts if you haven’t already – I think I made my opinion of her pretty clear.
I’m talking about the issues that your generalizations bring up for the gazillions of other girls out there who are not Rachael (she certainly does not speak for all women). As X already pointed out, the notion that once you hit a certain age you are unnattractive and “used up” is false, shallow, and absurd. The notion that guys are only looking for skinny virings is equally so. The manipulation aspect comes in when absusive, controlling partners use ridiculous notions like that to make their partners believe they will never be able to leave them and find happiness and fulfillment in a new relationship. Bitterness and attractiveness have ZERO correlation with age, and 100% correlation with spirit, perspective, and experience.
Rachael is not bitter because she’s pushing 40. She’s bitter because she had unrealistic and unsustainable notions of what a life partner should be.
Your success in finding a suitable partner increases once you decide to make it more about becoming a suitable partner.
My boyfriend proposed to me a little over a month ago and I’m 38. I spent my younger years being a single mom to my daughter, working and going to school. I wasn’t sleeping around with “cads.” I also am not old, fat or grumpy. In fact, I think I have a lot more to offer to a relationship now than I did when I was a “sweet, thin and beautiful” 18 year old.
My fiance (I really hate that word) told me that he is open to having children, but it is up to me. I am not sure about that right now. He IS a great guy, he is a fantastic, generous and loving person who is kind to me and to my daughter. Oh, and by the way, he’s 32. :D Hopefully he doesn’t realize that I am “unattractive and used-up” before we make it to the altar. Thanks for the confidence boost, though, Hippie!
Oh, and Praxedes, I love that quote. Did you come up with it yourself? I wrote it down and stuck it in my wallet.
Great, congrats Len!
“My fiance (I really hate that word)…”
When my wife and I were engaged, I referred to her as “my betrothed.” I’d go with that. Way cooler.
Thank you, Bobby! And that is way cooler, you’re right. We are looking at a date in February, because that is when my lease is up and I’ll just move in with him. I know that’s not a lot of time to plan anything fancy, but we are not having a “wedding,” just a small ceremony with the two of us and my daughter. I am so happy.
The first time I commented I didn’t read Rachel’s entire story. I have since read it, She seems like a nice average-esque woman, and if she has ridiculous standards like she wants to be the next Kate Middleton I agree she is being unrealistic, if she just wants a man who is about as secure as she is, I see nothing wrong with that.
I made a few rather large assumptions about Rachel when I first commented ( and hadn’t read the whole article): namely that she went to college, maybe to grad school, and that her career was important to her and she made a lot of money.
Not wanting to marry a ‘garbage man’ or gasp a man who only has a high school diploma and who doesn’t make a lot of money (depending on how old the man is) isn’t particularly shallow because these things tell you a lot about a man’s character, interests and objectives
What is important to him in life? Doe he saves or spends money? How ambitious is he? Does he look into the future or live day by day? Is he doing something he is passionate about?
Furthermore it is in indicator of how compatible you are
An average garbage man makes $29,000. If you are a 30 year old female investment banker you make into the 7 figures. Don’t you think you have vastly different approach to work, life, and happiness. Income, like appearance and a lot of other “shallow things” tells you a lot about someone
I try to rarely make self-admitted substance-less posts like the one I am making now, but wow Shannon, I am beyond revolted.
Am I saying you should turn down the perfect mate because of a single imperfection:Of course not, or you will be lonely forever. But if somethign is really really important to you in a mate, who are we to tell you, nahhh you don’t need it!
You shouldn’t just marry a nice guy just because he’s nice, neither should you marry a handsome man just because he is handsome. If you meet a wonderful guy and you think he is the ugliest man in the world—you shouldn’t marry him. It doesn’t mean you shouldn’t give it a chance but hopefully none of you think it is shallow to want to be attracted to your husband!!
It is REALLY hard to find someone who isn’t just a good person but they are a good person for YOU. Rachel has had a hard time, that sucks!!!! But from her story it doesnt seem like she met a perfect man who proposed marriage and she turned him down, she never found him missed out on a hubby and a baby and is said because of it
Congrats, Len! I’m in that same boat, and it’s a wonderful boat to be in, let me just say!!! ^_^
I agree with you, BB, wholeheartedly. I’d also like to add that with the support and love of someone dear, you’d be surprised what that garbage man might be capable of, in regards not only of professional acheivement, but also personal relationships.
The eyes harden and kill the heart, Shannon. Get attracted to someone with your brain, first. You’ll be surprised at what that allows your eyes to see.
Congratulations Len! Yes, I did make up that quote. Actually it’s a spin off another one of my quotes — “it’s not about finding the right person, it’s about being the right person.”
The light bulb went on for me when I heard about the 70th intoxicated boy-man on a bar stool explain why he was still single, “I just haven’t found the right woman yet.”
I got out of the bars, spent time working on myself and my relationship with Christ, and along comes my sweetheart. He doesn’t make a ton of money, isn’t Mr. Fashion (he wears his name on his work shirts) but we have food, clothing and shelter. Most importantly, he puts his family first and does a wonderful job helping me raise children that bio-dad all but abandoned.
My husband is a bit younger than myself too and when we were engaged, I’d introduce him as my young stud.
Shannon, I’d take an average garbage man over an above average investment banker any day.
Len – Congratulations! :) I hate “fiance” too. When we first got engaged, I started calling him my “Super-Boyfriend” but people thought I was just saying he was a super boyfriend. But what I hate even more is when vendors I meet with assume I want to be “princessy” and say things like “your special day”. Uhhg – I love being engaged and Im having so much fun planning, but sooooo much of the wedding stuff is way over the top cheesy for me!!
Shannon – every post you make makes me shake my head more. Can I ask how old you are?
Back to our “garbage man” or a man with a similar job not pulling in 7 figures…What does it say about him? Well. Let’s see. Absolutely nothing about his ability to be a good husband and/or a good father.
It could say that he has dyslexia or another learning disability that makes a lot of non-manual labor jobs too difficult for him
It could say that his father died when he was 15 and he had to get a manual labor job to help his mother pay the mortgage, so he never got to go to college
It could say that he served 5 years in the military and suffered a mild brain injury that prevents him from sitting in front of a computer for hours or working long days
It could say that the typical high wage earning jobs are just not his bag, and his ideal mate would be an educated woman to be the breadwinner, while he is a warm, wonderful stay at home dad
It could say that he is an incredibly talented musician who is working as a janitor because the hours allow him to play gigs but make enough money to pay the bills and have health insurance
Should I go on? These are just examples of men who I know personally (some friends, some relatives) who have jobs you would stick your nose up at. All of them are committed husbands. Two of them are Dads and a 3rd will be one in a few months. And you and Rachael would be too caught up with their paychecks and job titles to give any of them a shot…your loss.
Praxedes: Your success in finding a suitable partner increases once you decide to make it more about becoming a suitable partner.
WORD :)
Garbagemen commonly make more than teachers, averaging $43,000 in the US, and with a little overtime pay it’s often $60,000 or so.
Oh, and by the way, he’s 32.
Len, you are so totally Robbing The Cradle!!! ;)
Just kidding – congratulations and best of luck. :)
My parents always told me “if you wait until you can afford to have kids, no one would ever have kids.”
Frankly I think this whole conversation just makes the notion of ‘romantic’ marriage seem even more laughable than usual and is a good arguement for arranged/matched marriages.
It makes no sense to have *adult* human beings, sexually ready for life and physically capable of house, harth, work, and kids, to be dallying about ‘finding themselves’. *That*, I think, is a big part of the marriage/divorce problems. People want to ‘grow up’ and ‘find themselves’ and then find a mate, instead of finding someone to grow and find themselves with together.
If you find your own life mate young so be it, I wish you the very best (I chose my own husband and he chose me). But if (assuming a good family unit) your parents find a good match first, you should settle down together and do all that good growing together as a couple, not as separate people that then have to try to mesh with another ‘completed’ person. Either way, I think it’s ridiculous to hit 25 much less 30 and not be married.
I’ll stand with history, women should marry around 16-18 to slightly older men (18-25), and they should finish their ‘formative’ years forming as a single unit.
When I was in High School – the 1970s – there were a few girls whose stated wish was to have their kids early so they’d be grown up by the time mommy was 40 or so, leaving time to party.
Which shows, Doug, that people often do a shallow calculus of their future happiness.
Which is one reason adults often advise kids.
And yes, I’m hinting strongly about happiness and advice.
Amanda
You are making me shake my head as well.
I imagine you have friends who are married, how many of their husbands do you want to marry or think would be a perfect match for you? Hopefully none. And it is because you think you are so much better its because they ARENT THE GUYS FOR YOU
I am 20 and if the guys you had just described were my age and said to me ‘you know I had a lot of hardships but this is how I m going to overcome them and this is how I am going to work really hard and get to a very established place’ that is extremely attractive. We have ambition in common. Where someone sees themselves in ten years is not relevant
I know a lot of guys who’s family’s don’t have money, I know very few who NEVER want to have money, who actually WANT to live paycheck to paycheck.
How is it shallow to want to put your kid’s through college and maybe grad school without loans. Or take care of your parent’s when they get older or give to charity? They are called goals, if people have different goals they are less compatible, not complicated.
You seem to think I think the men you described would make terrible husbands and fathers. Um no, I think they would make terrible husbands for me and terrible father’s for my kids as I would make a terrible wife to them. In addition to all the standard qualifications, he has to be a hard worker, because I am a hard worker and I want to have a life that reflects that
Hey, whatever works for you. Just keep in mind, the woman who you agree and with and don’t want to criticize when it comes to this stuff is still single and alone at 40, depressed while she watches all of her younger friends and family members get married and have children. At some point, I bet she’d be willing to give up the notion of a 7 figure income for the family she’ll never get to have.
By the way, you don’t even know what a hard worker IS until you become a parent. No job that allows you to walk out the door at the end of the day or quit when you don’t like it anymore is all that hard.
Oh – and my dad has a blue collar job and my mom stayed at home with us until I was 10. They still put me through college without loans. Its called living within your means. People do it all the time.
“Your success in finding a suitable partner increases once you decide to make it more about becoming a suitable partner. ”
Praxedes, kudos for writing one of the best comments I’ve seen. Great quote.
Congratulations, len! As the “younger half” of a relationship, at age 28, I couldn’t agree more with your outlook.
“the notion that once you hit a certain age you are unnattractive and “used up” is false, shallow, and absurd.”
No, it isn’t. Normal guys want young attractive, chaste women for wives and mothers of their children.
“The notion that guys are only looking for skinny virings is equally so.”
No, it isn’t. It may not be true for 100% of guys but it is true for the vast majority.
Modern women are so insanely egotistically that they imagine themselves far more attractive and desirable than they are. Sure, guys will give them attention and take them for lots of test drives, but they don’t want them as wives in the general case. Yes, there are exceptions, but not many as Rachel has noted.
Hippie:
It’s called having a brain and other redeeming qualities besides being a virgin lay. You might want to look into it.
Personally, I’d rather have an extraordinary guy who loves me for my wit, charm, and intellect in addition to any physical beauty I posess, instead of a “normal guy”, if all they want me for is a tight fit and looks. But that’s ok, more “normal guys” for you! XD
Haha, Hippie – your definition of “normal” is outdated by 20 years or so…
The average age a woman in the US gets married is 26.2
The average age a female in the US loses her virginity is 17.0
75% of women in the US who get divorced remarry within 10 years
The average clothing size of a woman in the US is 12
There were over 2.2 million marriages in the US in 2010
So WHO are these MILLIONS of not “normal” men marrying these not skinny, not virgin women who are pushing 30!? Based on those stats, half of the weddings that took place last year were women OLDER than 26, who had not been virgins for an average of 10 years. And who are all of those “used up” divorced women marrying? Are they ALL exceptions?
Pesky facts…. hate it when they get in the way of opinions!
Oy, my goodness. Those averages are nearly meaningless. Half of kids are born to unmarried women. Tons of mothers never marry. Like I said. Guys will sleep with them. They just won’t marry them. That is why the average age at first birth is lower than the average age at first marriage.
Rachel wants a guy with a good income to marry her. That is a whole different ball game. That is why she fails.
“It’s called having a brain and other redeeming qualities besides being a virgin lay. You might want to look into it.”
Other redeeming qualities? That is so vague, I am going to have to agree.
It doesn’t matter what I think. It only matters what the guys think.
Tons of mothers never marry.
How precise. With numbers like that, it’s no wonder you’re winning this debate.
Other redeeming qualities? That is so vague, I am going to have to agree.
Read. I elaborate in my second paragraph. “Wit, charm, intellect, and beauty”, none of which magically evaporate when you hit 30, despite what I can only imagine a very bitter old woman told you. And like I said before, if you’re polling “normal guys” and that’s what “normal guys” say, I’ll keep my abnormal (in a good way) fiance who has been begging me to marry him since the day we met, provides for my children and I with joy, and tells me how beautiful I am every single day even AFTER I’ve been “used up” and had 2 kids.
You know how I got the great man I have now? Being the kind of woman who doesn’t give a flip what guys think. Turns out, the awesome, “abnormal” type of men really like a chick like that.
You, like Rachel, have been hanging around the wrong guys, apparently.
X – Im happy to be in “abnormal, used up” company with you and our “abnormal” freak fiances who love us
(I guess we should consider it a compliment, because by all the facts, I thought of myself as very average…haha)
:)
When are you getting married?
Likewise, Amanda. :)
It was supposed to be this October, but between clearing out my bank account and refusing to give any known address for a long time in order to bring our divorce to a halt for nearly a year, my ex has successfully thwarted us temporarily and it’s regrettably been moved to not this October, but the next. We’re still planning on being legally wed ASAP though. Next October will be the ceremony. I’ve never had a ceremony before, so I’m trying to see the delay as a good thing in that I’ll be able to have more time to plan and save for the wedding. I’m toying with the idea of making my own dress…I found a pattern that I very much like, and I’d enjoy putting my own spin on it and perhaps making something that can be handed down to the children. (As soon as we’re able, we’re planning on having at least two biological children together. He can’t wait to have kids with me, either, even though I’m not a virgin. HE’S A MADMAN, I TELL YA!)
I can’t wait to hobble myself down the isle with my walker at the brittle old age of 31. XD
Well – the stuff with the ex sucks, BUT, since the plan is to only be engaged once and be married for a LOOOOONG time, having it be a nice long-ish engagement is actually kinda nice. We’re getting married next September. It works for us because I have a thesis to finish and defend, and 3 more semesters of classes – and he is saving up money. Plus so many girls get alllll stressed out over planning and ending up miserable basketcases, but we’re picking away at things here and there which keeps it fun!
The nice thing about getting married at the ancient, dried up age of 30 is that we’ve seen enough weddings to know exactly what we like and what we can do without. Making your own dress is AWESOME!! (will it be black to reflect the conditions of our souls?) Im not quite that talented, but Im doing our bouquets and centerpieces. Now…if only we could train our cats to walk down the isle with the rings… :D
Which shows, Doug, that people often do a shallow calculus of their future happiness.
Ha! Rasqual, understatement right there. ;)
___
Which is one reason adults often advise kids.
And yes, I’m hinting strongly about happiness and advice.
No objections there, per se.
“vast majority”
Hmm, is that pro-choice speak for “I want to win this debate but have no facts to back it up”? Because I can’t help but notice the vast majority of pro-choicers use the phrase a vast majority of the time.
LOL!!
Rachael says, “Having children is expensive, and I dreaded ending up broke and abandoned with a wailing newborn in my arms.”
When I was broke and abandoned, it was that child in my arms that kept me moving forward. Of course, this meant I had to look past my own nose.
Ninek: “vast majority”
Hmm, is that pro-choice speak for “I want to win this debate but have no facts to back it up”? Because I can’t help but notice the vast majority of pro-choicers use the phrase a vast majority of the time.
Well, for many things it does indeed apply. In this thread, it was Hippie who used it, and I think to some extent she has a point.