Two botched abortions; no gurney access
Today pro-lifers gathered to commemorate the tragic anniversary of Roe v. Wade at the New Woman All Women abortion mill in Birmingham, Alabama, witnessed not one but two ambulance calls for botched abortions.
As if the botches weren’t dangerous enough, the abortion mill could not accommodate a gurney, forcing responders to carry the first victim out…
and bring the second victim out in a wheelchair…
Abortion proponents fight common sense abortion clinic regulations that for one thing force shoddy clinics to ensure entrances, doorways, and halls are wide enough to fit a gurney in the event of an emergency. The other side claims regulations are unnecessary.
Well, guess what? They’re necessary.
And guess what else? This mill is a dump. Surprise, surprise.
Pro-lifers pray that although their babies are dead, the moms will be ok.
[HT: Sue]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
wow ths mill looks like the city dump. i told you guys these girls leave in an ambulance more often then one would think.
This is truly so sad….They have no idea the weight of their decision. I think sad too because now they are alone and scared. Probably can not even call their mother and have to deal with the “Oh crap, what did I just do” that will set in………………………………….
Oh my goodness. They perform surgical procedures in such a dump?
I pray that these girls are doing alright.
this isn’t a botched pap smear, pro choicers! Abortion HURTS women!
I too hope the women are okay….
Oh Reality! ooooh yoo-hooo Reality! What were you saying about how much safer abortion is than childbirth?
Lord help them… praying for their recovery and redemption. I pray they are safe and being healed by real doctors and the Hands of God.
Yes, please continue to pray for them and all the others!
Also praying that the abortionists, their nurses and receptionists, deathscorts, and all pro-aborts come to their senses and seek forgiveness and healing…
They’re so young… especially the first one. At least, they appear that way in the pictures.
I hope they recover well… they already have a long road of emotional/spiritual healing ahead of them. :-(
I had no idea there was a mill there. I used to go to Formaggio’s right up the street for Italian after summer band rehersals. Ugh.
Why don’t stories like this make it into National News? Why????
Then maybe, just maybe these girls will realize that this happens every single day at mills across the country.
Our trolls cannot offer any excuses for this. Back alley abortions did not end with Roe v Wade–they became legal!
Agreed, army_wife…she’s so small…
Doesn’t this place have a front door that a gurney can go through?
Jill,
Follow suit of Operation Rescue and get copies of the 911 calls. It is the law and public record.
Kate – pro-aborts don’t dare let ambulances show up at the front door on the street where people might see!
Amber, I can see that. I don’t have much faith in the mill workers, but I am appalled that the paramedics don’t have enough sense to take a woman suffering surgical complications out on a gurney. Carrying her out a side door like that? Really?
Yeah - but from the 911 calls that I’ve heard in the past from abortion mills they are pretty bossy about where the ambulance needs to go – and the drivers follow orders from dispatch – and they have to do it as quickly as they can, so they’re prob. not going to argue or search for the best course of action – it’s up to the establishment to provide and direct them to a safe exit.
It’s sad but true :(
Kate, a lot of standard front doors won’t fit a gurney through either. Especially in older buildings built before wheelchair access became a big deal. One of the apartments I lived in for a while had a very narrow back gate, gurney could have made it through the house door, but they had to carry my grandmother-in-law with the broken shoulder and suspected broken hip out because it couldn’t fit through the gate (stairs out front made gurney access that way difficult too). But then, that was a private residence, not someplace that had a reasonable expectation of needing gurney access! And, even if they had a big front door, like Amber said, first responders go where they are told. If they get told ‘go around back’ they’re going to assume there is a real reason for it and not waste time second guessing it.
I am unable to look at these pictures without tears…for the dead children and for their mothers, whose REAL nightmares have just begun. Lord, have mercy!
Thanks for clearing up my confusion, Amber and Jespren. :)
Praying for these girls. Oh my heart.
Praying they seek abortion recovery.
There is one problem bigger than the promotion of abortion by the women’s movement and abortion doctors: it is the silence of the male population against abortion and their abuse/use of women as sexual objects.
I can’t help but think this whole problem would be far less prominent if more men would just be decent guys and keep their pants on.
Generally speaking, I think final responsibility lies with women, but the initial responsibility lies with men.
These poor women. Lets pray for their spiritual and physical recovery.
The gurney access issue is another important issue that needs to be addressed. It is unbelievable that this is not required of abortion mills!!! Shame on the politicians for letting this safety issue be brushed aside.
Tyler–
What about more men standing up for Life or sharing regrets for lost fatherhood?
(Silent No More Campaign)
Fatherhood Begins in the Womb http://www.toomanyaborted.com/?p=4067
Fathers as the 3rd victim of Abortion http://www.intellectualconservative.com/2007/08/09/fathers-the-third-victim-of-the-abortion-industry/
Tyler, I thought about the men after reading this article, too. There are five men in one of the above photos alone. They are doing a great thing getting these women to help but do they speak out against abortion or do they just view these killing mills as job security?
Women and children mean nothing to proabort men.
Very sad.
Also, was that the same clinic bombed 10-15 years back?
If it was the same clinic, that many years is sure enough time to clean up the mess.
Very sad indeed.
Tyler, I believe that several state legislatures have passed or are trying to pass laws that would help with issues like gurney access–Virginia and Pennsylvania are two. They would require abortion clinics to meet the same requirements as ambulatory surgical centers. And yet, pro-aborts oppose this legislation–so much for wanting “safe” abortion.
Blessing, thanks for the links. I was thinking more about the general population of men. I know there are many men who speak out against abortion, but the average guy seems wholly uninterested in the issue, which I think is very sad. The women’s movement doesn’t want to educate men on the issue for fear that these men may see abortion for what it is and then develop a backbone.
More specifically, men need to speak-out against the women in the women’s movement who are pro-choice, and not let these women push them into silenece and submission. Too many men feel that they have no say on the topic of abortion. They have sheepishly accepted the “My body/My choice” argument out of fear of being labelled a misoygnist. This fear causes them to be pro-choice. Ironically, howver, this fear and pro-choice perspective leads many of these men to be misoygnists!! Their fear creates a downward spiral into greater and greater immorality for themselves.
Men need to be taught to no just think of babies, but to think of pre-born babies.
If we convince men that abortion is wrong, and to be more responsibile sexually the problem of abortion will go down dramatically. This is a challenge for men, which can even be tracked by statistics in order to see how good men are doing.
Educating men on this issue of taking control of their bodies will perhaps show the pro-choice women that they should respect their own body and the body inside their womb. Right now the North American culture has little respect for the human body, let alone human beings!
Fatherhood begins in the man’s heart!!
(Not tryin to dis “Too Many Aborted”)
Tyler-
Thanks, I am more enlightened. Honestly, I hadn’t ever thought that much about it.
You explain it very well.
BTW–The pro-aborts who throw misogny around–threaten us women with it, too. Anything, to keep us from getting to close to their heart and truth. There is truly a hatred against us from the (especially) Planned Parenthood clan.
Babies aren’t the only grist for these mills. Too often, so are their mothers.
Geez, and to think I walked by that horrid place last Saturday at B-ham’s March for Life. I was so busy watching my kids I didn’t even realize it was there, I only saw a handful of pro-aborts holding signs out of the corner of my eye.
Thanks are in order to the pro-life witnesses who held vigil today.
Prayers for ALL these ladies, and their aborted children :'(
why do trolls harp on bombs? is that a bomb fetish or is it bomb porn? lol
Tyler – it’s a two way street – yes men are sleeping around, but so are women – EVERYONE needs to just keep their pants on. But that isn’t the culture – we have a lot of work to do.
amber youre so right! and good morning;) i will tell you that many women know my husband is a married man and a few have hit on him anyway! some women are the agressive types. they want sex and many target men. they could care less if they are married or if they have a steady girlfriend.
@ hans..youre right. and pro aborts will be back with the lame excuse ” any surgery can cause a complication.” bla bla bla
and i believe soem aggressive women do it because womens lib has taught them “be like a man.” you would really be surprised. anyway we are all responsible for their own actions. anyway ive gotta snap a picture of our abortion mill. its bad. i wouldnt take a dog there if it were a vets office. id be looking for another office. potholes in the parking lot. broken windows. go around the back and there are huge holes in the windows. that abortionist can afford a lexus but he cant clean up his clinic? and where do you suppose the clinic is? in the ghetto. and the majority of the patients are black. lets kill the poor. that will help things. sheesh! black genocide.
That is truly sad Heather :(
Unless I’m mistaken, the AL AG can shut the place down as a violation of ADA; no wheelchair access in a public “health” provider…
And yes, let us pray for the erstwhile mothers. Their babies have gone home, but they are still with us.
May God’s love and grace and compassion come to them through friends and strangers alike.
-K
yeah amber. what can you do? op rescue made a mistake when they reported that martin ruddocks clinic was closed. it negver closed despite the mountains of health code violations …like no pre op vital signs.
Some time ago I did some internet searching on this place and discovered they had a two tier level of care. If you pay more, you get better anesthesia and more private accomodations, i.e. you don’t have to sit in the waiting room with the rest of the peasantry. If you can’t pay extra, well you’re SOL. Apparently a woman must still have money to have a more comfortable and more private abortion experience. All other women get carried out of the backdoor, right next to the dumpster.
Hi Liz, 8:22PM
No, any of us would immediately recognize this as a botched mammogram.
Hi Alice 9:34PM
That’s the clinic that Eric Rudolph set off an explosive in front of, killing a police officer and severely wounding and diabling a nurse.
Those poor babies ? They didn’t deserve to die.
If only those women had listened to the voice of those whom Jesus sent to call out to them before they went inside to keep the appointment they had made. There are always risks when a mommy kills her baby. They knew that. Both of them had to write their signature on the dotted line of their consent forms saying they understood & were willing to risk injury & death to have their children dismembered. The only innocent ‘victims’ in this sad story are the little ones who did not give their consent. When women spurn the offers of Christians, refuse to choose a loving adoptive couple for their child & voluntarily consent to elective surgery to procure the death of the babies I do not think it is intellectually or spiritually honest for these mothers to be called ‘victims’, for truly, they were victimizers. I pray they do not justify themselves or consider themselves as innocent ‘victims’, but guilty perpetrators in need of forgiveness through the Blood of Christ. Jesus didn’t come to save the self-righteous, who did not admit they were sick with sin, but for humble sinners. May these lost mommies repent of their sin & believe the gospel, to the glory of Jesus & the good of their souls & the good of any & all children God may give them as His gifts.
Hi heather, 8:12PM
Talk about a dump. Its hard to tell if the hand railing is even secured to the cement but I notice a couple of cement blocks under one of the steps. Is that supporting the step?
That back entrance is a serious, even fatal injury waiting to happen.
Aren’t there even the most minimal standards that buildings must meet, like secured handrails and steps?
…and God only knows what’s in that dumpster…
The low cost spay/neuter clinic for dogs and cat’s where I live is cleaner than this dump.
This has very quickly become an odd conversation.
– Do we wish this clinic was nicer so that it was a better lure to women?
– Do we want to strive to understand how women can feel in such a desperate situation that they’d go to a dump like this?
I think that is the lesson here – what is wrong with our society where a woman would go anywhere to end a life, especially walking into such a desolate and run down place like that. How can we offer hope to people who honestly believe their best option is to walk in and kill?
How do you know that it was a “botched abortion” and not routine surgical complications? And nice to see how you “pro-lifers” protected the confidentiality of the patients whose faces are clearly visible. If some “pro-lifers” recognize them and want to make their lives miserable by harassing or threatening them, it’s on you.
hi mary and mike! happy new year havent seen you guys. yeah mike. the humane society near me treats the cats and dogs better. its clean and friendly there. im betting they CANT fit a stretcher through that door. that dump must be closed.
cc what did pro lifers do now? we cant set foot on abortion clinic property. besides ive told you guys they shield womens faces with blankets to protect their identity. who is gonna know them and why is there shame in their choice. no. its the abortion clinics fault for not allowing a safe access and entrance into their clinic.
EGV 1:29PM
Apparently the place has no trouble luring women.
Wasn’t the whole point of legalizing abortion to put dumps like this out of business?
To guanrantee that poor women have the same access to ”safe,legal” abortion as rich women? But let’s get real, did anyone really think women from housing projects and homeless shelters would sit in the same waiting room as Hollywood celebrities and millionaires’ daughters?
We have to dispense with the very naive and dangerous notion that legalizing something puts the criminal element out of business. More often than not it only gives the criminal element opportunities they never dreamed of.
There are approximately 3,000 pregnancy crisis centers across the US to offer women like this help. Also, where’s PP and all their “contaceptive services” that they get millions of tax dollars for?
and a complication is a botched abortion. they should have excellent doctors on hand to correct the problem and these women wouldnt need the hospital. forget it just carry them out the darn door.
CC,
What other “routine surgical complications” would be occuring in an abortion clinic? As was pointed out by Liz and me, the injuries of these women wouldn’t be caused by mammograms and pap smears. Maybe “contraceptive counselling” necessitated the call for paramedics. I didn’t think of that possibility.
As for patient confidentiality, perhaps if the clinic had facilites that enabled the paramedics to enter with a stretcher, instead of having to carry out a patient like a sack of flour, and walk down dangerous steps, then patient privacy could be better protected. Also anyone in the vicinity or looking out their windows could have seen these women. Heck the garbage collector could have been making a routine stop and gotten an eyeful.
The photos show the unfavorable side of this clinic, by the dumpster, against an alley. The front looks very normal. You can find it without too much problem on Google street view. The dumpster side is pretty much like any small building back-side.
This is not the Birmingham abortion clinic that had the terrible health inspection report a few years ago or so – that one is not too far away, though, to the east.
TLD,
I am so glad that Google street view shows such a normal looking building!! Whew!!
And yet……..babies die in there, women are wounded. At least two as shown in the photos.
Hi Lifesong,
How do you know? How do you know the stories of these two women? How do you know they were fully informed, shown the ultrasound, heard the heartbeat and understood exactly how they might be injured or killed there??? How do you know that they were not forced or coerced to abort??
There is no informed consent with abortion. Women are NOT told the truth.
They are victims.
I pray that post abortive women do not turn to folks like you for abortion recovery should they want it some day if they are struggling or suffering. If they are struggling with depression, drinking, suicidal thoughts or nightmares. I pray they see in someone’s face the loving eyes that Jesus had for the woman at the well and the woman caught in adultery. THAT is how I came to healing. Grace and mercy through friends in Christ. I met the lover of my soul without condemnation.
The decision to kill their preborn babies, will haunt them all the days of their lives! May they seek forgiveness from the Lord and have true repentance in their heart, and then share their story, so other/babies may live!
Give/place your unwanted children up for adoption!!
Just a thought………….
Heather–
Do you have the evidence that the Ruddock clinic is NOT closed?
It is not like OR to falsely claim something. I see that the DR. might be traveling to Ohio to perform abortions but it looks like his MD clninic is closed.
I was there yesterday, and it was so tragic. Beyond how dangerous the injured girls had to be handled due to lack of gurney access, the other issue is that medical treatment appeared to be withheld until our prayer vigil group left. Most of our folks had left and only a few of us were still in our cars when a fire engine and two ambulances with sirens blaring came racing to this abortion mill. A fire engine had come about 45 minutes earlier, and they were told by abortion personnel that the emergency had been cancelled. It was so obvious to all of us that medical treatment had been delayed until after our prayer group left with the clinic trying not to be exposed for injuring these girls. And by the time ambulances were called, the first girl appeared to be unconscious. And there were several other girls who left on their own that appeared in trouble as well- white as sheets and wobbly. We told them to go and get real medical treatment. I pray they do. And pray for these two injured girls. So injured on so many levels. And then we watched the abortionist cowardly hide himself as he got in his car and sped off with money in his pocket to places unknown as these two young girls lie injured in the medical facility with their health and future unknown. This is so wrong on so many levels.
Hi GM,
thank you for holding vigil there and being there for these women and their babies. disgusting that the clinic would put their reputation above patient health–pro-woman they ARE NOT. i recently learned that there used to be 7 mills in Birmingham, now there is only this one and a PP. These places need to be shut down!!!
Heather,
I wouldn’t call any doctor at these places “excellent”. (But I get what you mean.)
I used to straddle the fence on the “victim” status of these women, but I’m more and more in agreement with Carla. There are so many things in life that we, willingly or subconciously, have no clue about.
I remember being in Sunday School at the height of the civil rights movement, and how condescending our discussion table was, saying, “All those Bible figures over there were black too, so we should be on their side.”
It’s so easy to be wrong for what we think is the right reason. And vice versa.
How do you know that it was a “botched abortion” and not routine surgical complications?
routine surgical complication?
routine? do you mean like common?
Okay, how about a routine door to allow egress of those suffering from “routine surgical complications” like other clinics have?
hi blessing..indeed i do know that ruddock is still killin babies. i stand in front of his clinici!
Carla, I know that women like us who procure abortions are not ‘victims’ because I trust the Bible more than humanistic psychology. The Bible does not describe us as victims. The Word of the very One who designed & created us & from whom we have rebelled, tells us that we have a sin nature & that is why we sin. Jeremiah 17:9 says that it is our own corrupt sin nature which causes us to be sexually immoral & murder our young. “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” Jesus said “For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality…” (Matthew 15:19;Mark 7:21, see also Galatians 5:19) God says that we are ‘without excuse’. (Read Romans 1:18-32) That’s how I know we who murder infants are not victims, but victimizers. That’s how I know we are guilty. That’s how I know that I am not a victim. I am great sinner & Christ is a great Savior.
@ hans yeah i was kind of making a joke like abortionists are not these sterling characters. they happen to be the lowest of the low. who is ever going to hire them? i was pretty much saying that if they were so excellent then why on earth would all these ladies have to take a trip to the hospital? ;)
TLD.
How better to lure women in, right? I don’t care if the front of the building looks like Buckingham Palace, there is no way to safely remove patients in an emergency. Paramedics forced to carry an injured woman like she is a sack of flour down stairs that are being supported on cement blocks and without a secure handrail is mindboggling. The fact that this is a facility where surgical procedures are done is even more appalling. I don’t expect the back of a building to look palatial, but I would hope it meets the most basic safety standards.
“Oh Reality! ooooh yoo-hooo Reality! What were you saying about how much safer abortion is than childbirth?” – that it is. Because it is.
Is there any proven, factual information on what happened here or why these ladies were being placed in an ambulance? Why the fire engine?
Reality, usually when 911 is called they send multiple services. I’ve had a fire engine on the scene when an ambulance was called for me.
And really, what other procedure would have resulted in complications that require EMS attention? People don’t fall unconscious during Pap smears.
Reality,
The fact the paramedics were carrying that one woman would indicate this was something more serious than a mammogram or contraceptive counseling gone wrong.
These were young women so I’m not betting my next paycheck they happened to have heart attacks or strokes, especially in the same facility at the same time. Also, this is an abortion facility. Its kind of a no-brainer, don’t ya think Reality?
Hi Reality I was wondering what you would suggest that a boyfriend or a husband should say to their girlfriend or wife who is considering an abortion?
Is the man the father or not?
“Hi Reality I was wondering what you would suggest that a boyfriend or a husband should say to their girlfriend or wife who is considering an abortion.”
How bout he tell her that he respects her decision whatever it may be.
he respects her decision whatever it may be?……even if he has to accept the fact that his kid will be ripped to shreads and killed? …..nah thats not fair.
Hi CC
Should he say or do anything else?
In reality, the women in the photos don’t look too empowered. They look injured and weak. I hope and pray they get the medical attention they need, and I honor the lives of their dead children.
Incredible. An emergency was ‘canceled’ and then back on? What a joke these doctors and clinic staff are. No door for a gurney, so their patients are carried out the junky backside of the building to get to safety.
Same dirty doctors and conditions. The only thing that’s changed since Roe are the numbers. The numbers of aborted and injured people, and the numbers of legal profit for the abortionists.
NOT empowering. Pathetic.
911 does NOT come unless its serious. a lacerated cervix or a perforated bowel or uterus? probably. nausea or a headache? NOT!
CC, I had a friend who had an unplanned pregnancy and her boyfriend said those very words to her. “Whatever you decide dear…”
She was SO PISSED. She wanted him to man up, tell her he wanted their baby. She wasn’t even sure she wanted the baby but she wanted HIM to WANT THEIR BABY.
Eventually, despite pressure from family and friends to abort again, she did have her baby and even after she had her she was annoyed at his “whatever” attitude.
CC,
I hope my question on January 22, 2012 at 7:45 pm was not too difficult. I was looking and hoping for a serious answer/response.
What else can the boyfriend/husband do for his girlfriend or wife who is considering abortion?
its worse than carharts mill. i didnt think that was possible. yeesh!
REality and CC–
you got NOTHING.
Oh, except dead babies and butchered women.
Why do people think these two women chose to have abortions?
Ex, because they had mealy-mouthed people around them like you who said, “You want it to go away? We can make it go away! Because it’s an IT.”
Courtnay -
I wouldn’t advise them of that at all.
And I don’t think that women are simply ignorant pigs that do whatever somebody tells them.
I think these two women looked at life ahead of them with children in their lives and thought that the alternative of killing them was better.
How do we think we can better place value on families and children? How do you think we can make it so that a woman in a desperate situation feels like having the child is a better option than killing it?
We first make it illegal and communitcate through our actions, words, and beliefs that the abuse and killing of the innocent WILL NOT BE TOLERATED.
That’s where we start.
@Lifesong,
I agree with Carla. You have no idea of these women’s (or young girls) family situation, state of mind, if they were coerced in some way, etc. These women need help, love, and compassion, not a fire and brimstone you’re gonna go to hell unless…speech. I’m sure you are on fire for God and that’s wonderful. But, too many women and girls have been duped by the abortion community into thinking that abortion will be the answer. Yes, they need prayer and forgiveness. But, I believe and I’m sure many others that frequent this blog believe that the aborting woman is a victim, too.
Courtnay -
In today’s reality though, where abortion is legal….
How do we make it so that a woman in a desperate situation feels like having the child is a better option than killing it?
courtnay love it!!!!! yeah like “friends who say things like i had one” men who say “i will stand by you and your choice” or parents who say “you had better or it will ruin your life.”
Defund Planned Parenthood. Support Crisis Pregnancy Centers. VOTE OBAMA OUT OF OFFICE. And get down on your knees, every single night.
Ex-GOP,
No offence but I think your statement should be picked up by MPQ. It is sadly moronic but pertinent!!!
“In today’s reality though, where abortion is legal….
How do we make it so that a woman in a desperate situation feels like having the child is a better option than killing it?”
Ex-GOP
As Courtnay’s response implies, the US needs a law that tells young women and the rest of the entire society that America protects the preborn!! That in America it is a crime to kill the preborn using elective abortion.
Your question, as you hinted, is only valid in a Culure of Death, it is not valid in a Culture of Life.
The answer to your question is found when you understand that its answer is changing the law: the passion of Pro-Lifers.
you cant be a christian and support obama. you just cannot be. he is so anti christian and he is so far left. like my pastor said “the opposite of right isnt left. its wrong.”
heather – I believe that a person can.
“And get down on your knees, every single night.” – oo, now who does that sound like? Hm, some theocrat or other of some faith or other.
“Your question, as you hinted, is only valid in a Culure of Death, it is not valid in a Culture of Life” – are you still trying that one!?!
heather -
furthermore, I think it is pretty darn dangerous to throw out more conditions of Christianity than is in the Bible. I think you are getting pretty close to ‘adding words’.
Ex-GOP,
Back at ya –
Why do people think these two women chose to have abortions?
Even though I am still waiting for a response from Reality and GOP to my question , I will attempt an answer to your question (Ex-GOP are you a closet pro-choicer?)
First, I know for sure that these women were not thinking of their pre-born children, Second, they were thinking about their own lives. Possibly… financial reasons, educational reasons, social pressure, peer pressure, family pressure, boyfriend pressure, husband pressure, etc… Perhaps, even sheer calluousness or ignorance… they simply use abortion as birth control and think nothing of getting an abortion.
a true christian knows morals and does not and will not support obamanation with his baby killing policies! they will turn on him and never vote for him.
Reality, what should a husband/boyfirend say to their wife/girlfirend who is considering abortion?
Tyler – nope – I just have to fundamental issues with many pro-lifers:
1) I think a lot of them are pro-birthers – have the baby, but don’t support a culture of life after that
2) I think some put the cause of abortion ahead of the cause of Christ, which is idol worship.
Now, my thoughts? I think it is fear. I think we have a society that values productivity. A good person is a person that works, contributes, and has money. Having a baby is expensive, takes one back in a career path (often), and is tough to do without a good support system. I’ve got three girls – I don’t know how a single mother would do it – my wife and I were pretty stretched (emotionally and financially) many, many times!
So my guess is that these women see what our culture values, saw their lives, and thought they couldn’t make life happen with a baby in their lives. Why they chose abortion over adoption? I think we as a society need to come a long ways in regards to how we treat unwedded pregnant women. I think we are real quick to judge these women – especially churches (and even some I’ve been in) – instead of coming along side them in love and not in guilt.
heather -
Matthew 5:9
From NPR -
“How many times do we have to prove that these people are blowing up people now, never mind if they get a nuclear weapon. When do we send them an airmail message to Tehran?” a man in the crowd asked.
In response, McCain said, “That old, eh, that old Beach Boys song, Bomb Iran” — which elicited laughter from the crowd. McCain then chuckled before briefly singing — to the tune of the chorus of the Beach Boys’ classic “Barbara Ann” — “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, anyway, ah ….”
The audience responded with more laughter.
So maybe a true Christian should never vote at all, since it is quite clear all politicians have sin in their life.
The legs of the mother being carried down the stairs appear awfully dusky. That means she is not getting good blood circulation/oxygen to the extremities. She may have gone into cardiac arrest.
“Abortion is safer than childbirth” is a fallacy due to under-reporting of abortion as a cause or contributing factor on death certificates. The cause of death may be listed as sepsis, hemorrhage, suicide, etc.; even though, it occurred during or following an abortion. This is done sometimes to protect her privacy or spare the family. Furthermore, the coroner may have been unaware of the abortion at the time the death certificate is completed. Not all states, health departments, medical examiners report abortion complications and/or deaths to the CDC.
However, every perinatal woman who is not seeking an abortion and dies for any reason i.e. accident is listed as a maternal death. It does not matter if the death is unrelated to pregnancy, childbirth, or postpartum; it is still counted as such.
Thus, the statistics on the safety of abortion vs. childbirth are skewed.
tyler a real man wouldnt drag his feet. they would step up and man up. although i no longer speak to ex or reality anymore id say at least ex claims to be against abortion. there might be hope for him but reality is off the hinges. hes livin in his own reality and thank God his reality isnt mine;)
Lifesong,
You have had an abortion? I would hope you would have more compassion for those that have been deceived into thinking that abortion is the right thing to do.
You are not allowed to tell me who or what I am. There is no US.
I am forgiven and set free for my abortion. It is something I have done, not who I am. I am what Jesus Christ says I am.
Tyler,
How do you know the stories of these two women?
Gads if I had a nickel for every person who told me that women aren’t victims of abortion…….
“Reality, what should a husband/boyfirend say to their wife/girlfirend who is considering abortion?” – I can only speak for myself Tyler, It’s not my place to tell others what they ‘should’ do, is it yours?
1/ why?
2/ have you considered the other choices?
3/ here’s how I feel about it.
4/ these are what I see as the pros and cons.
5/ what can I do to help with what you choose?
ExGop
If you were here I would hug you for this
I think we are real quick to judge these women – especially churches (and even some I’ve been in) – instead of coming along side them in love and not in guilt.
EX-GOP, since you are obviously a softie, I will let you revise your comments so that you can show that you value the work of stay-at-home Moms and Dads. I don’t think your definition of a “good person” was meant to exclude the unpaid work that they do that contributes to society. Often the stay-at-home Mom and Dad don’t have money.
I always thought that, as Christian, we were to value people based on who they are, and not on what they can do for society?!
Lastly, although the sentiment of your comment about not judging these women is nice, its misrepresents reality. Very few pro-lifers are judging these women, they are judging their actions. There is a difference.
An “unapologetic” abortion attending woman doesn’t need only compassion, she needs instruction, and a conscience as well. Not all women deserve to be treated the same. As a father of three girls, though, I am sure you know this better than most.
Reality, could please elaborate on 3 through 5? What exactly would you say in a conversation?
And what would you say if she asked for your opinion on whether she should get an abortion?
So far, Reality it sounds like you have the boyfriend/husband wiping their hands of the entire matter and placing the entire burden of the choice onto the girlfriend’s/wife’s shoulders.
Pregnancy lasts nine months. Abortion IS FOREVER!
Hey Reality my questions are real, they reflect reality. I hope you appreciate them: so here they are again:
Reality, could please elaborate on 3 through 5? What exactly would you say in a conversation?
And what would you say if she asked for your opinion on whether she should get an abortion?
So far, Reality it sounds like you have the boyfriend/husband wiping their hands of the entire matter and placing the entire burden of the choice onto the girlfriend’s/wife’s shoulders.
Ex-GOP
Pro-Birthers – doesn’t America already have programs in place to help single mothers, and poor families? If the baby is put up for adoption, the adoption agency take cares of the rest, along with the babies new parents! What are your concerns specifically, post birth? This concern of yours appears to be very vague.
What cause of Chirst do you put in front of being pro-life? Salvation is meaningless if there is no one to save. Salvation and human beings are eternally linked. Being pro-life can never be idol worship, although by its very nature it is evangelical. Every baby needs to baptised!! What is Baptism without a baby? Who can be born again if they are not born in the first place?
Tyler -certainly, I value stay at home parents (my wife stays home) – and you obviously do – but I don’t know if our society really does. I mean, look even at the laws surrounding maternity leave in the US vs other countries in the world. We could be doing far better!
Furthermore, what is the message to kids? Get an education, get a career, pay off loans, then start a family. And with college debt like it is, it is tough to go out of order.
Carla – at my old church, I remember the various ladies who put on the baby showers didn’t know what to do with the high schooler that was pregnant. They did mean well – I knew most of them – but they wanted to have a quiet shower – nothing big and approving of the “situation”.
3/ hard to say without actually being in the situation, and each situation is different
4/ ditto
5/ ditto
and that’s the whole point really, its the situation, and each situation is different. And that’s why we have choice.
“it sounds like you have the boyfriend/husband wiping their hands of the entire matter and placing the entire burden of the choice onto the girlfriend’s/wife’s shoulders.” – so you didn’t read my answers to your original questions 3 and 4?
“Pregnancy lasts nine months. Abortion IS FOREVER!” – that makes no sense.
Realilty <<<<crickets>>>>
Tyler – as states are getting their budgets squeezed, they are also squeezing medicaid programs and shrinking the amount of people eligible.
I’m assuming that you are referring to my 9:34 comment…I have an issue with cutting people out of health insurance and underfunding schools because we’re too afraid to pay a bit more in taxes. Some kids, yes, they are born – but they are given very little shot in life with the neighborhoods they grow up in and education they are given. Government can’t solve all of this – certainly not – but I think some political view really demonize the poor and blame them for their situation.
I think you make a mistake in saying that because there is an order of things, that the order of things becomes most important. Certainly, if a person pursues abortion rights or pro-life goals first in their life, it is an idol. Christ says to proclaim the good news. We should follow Him – we shouldn’t follow a political position.
One last side note – I (and many non-Catholics) don’t believe Baptism is a saving act. Now, I agree you have to have a life before that life can be saved. But I still hold with the thought that one can idolize darn near anything in society, even the fight against abortion. The key is the place of one’s focus compared to Christ.
Ex-Gop you wrote:
“1) I think a lot of them are pro-birthers – have the baby, but don’t support a culture of life after that.”
I am wondering where/why you’ve concluded this. It is so far from the truth and facts that it screams ignorance.
The prolifers I know are out there freezing their butts off outside clinics, praying, keeping vigil and counseling…we sure don’t do it for *fun*. I can think of plenty of ways to better spend my time.
The prolifers I know do adopt, or volunteer at pregnancy crisis centers, donate to those causes, take in pregnant teen moms, petitioning for legislation, etc.
The prolifers I know are the ones out there getting the women prental care, sonograms, pregnancy tests (often for free), parenting classes, baby items, substance abuse help, protection from partner abuse…do I really need to go on?
They are also the ones standing outside the clinic with open arms and healing information for those women to go to. Kind of ironic that it is a stranger standing out side that offers the most compassion, isn’t it?
Prolife people are nurturing the culture of life–of the MOMS and of the babies–when most eveyone else in society has given those tiny lives up as “not valuable”, having less value than “ME”, or too expensive and too handicapped or whatever the excuse is. There are SO very many ressources out there for pregnant moms that there is simply NO excuse for an abortion. Period.
Who makes all those resources available?–the prolife people, the Churches, the pregnancy centers, the volunteers who take moms in and babies in. Again, all the prolife people. Because it is NOT the “pro-aborts” who are doing all of this–because they are murdering the babies–there is NO need for them to “take care of them after they are born”
So, when you can stand on here and tell me that you have done half as much to help a mom or baby in need THEN you can spout your falsities. Please, do me a favor and take the time to really learn about the people involved.
Your comments simply illustrate and validate the true ignorance that is prevalent around this issue and prolifers.
Well, Reality that was just a very weak response, to say that your response would be stiuational. What does that mean? When will you stop avoiding these questions and try to give an answer?
There is nothing situational about these questions. Basically, they cause the pro-choice to answer the following question: how can a pro-choice man make any statments, pro or con about abortion, without influening his partner’s decision?
The answer is that he can’t. He can only say NOTHING, and thereby is of no use, no help, and no support to his own partner. This is the REALITY for women that you support as a pro-choicer, a REALITY that makes women the sole person responsible for any pregnancy.
It takes two to get a woman pregnant, but in Reality’s world the Pro-Choice Man must, by defninition, deny helping his partner decide lest he be branded a pro-lifer or pro-abortion. In Reality’s world the woman is left alone.
Are you struggling to comprehend real life situations again Tyler?
Ex-GOP,
Your post-Birth concerns don’t seem to be specifically related to abortion. (ie. thera are poor people with or without abortion.) And to tie this in with your comment about the order/focus of things. Well in terms of God’s value we are not to value our material possessions at the expense of another’s life.
Your theological concerns about priortizing life is a bit misleading, because I and no pro-lifer said that life is valued more than Christ (I will try not get into Catholic versus other Christina theologies as much as I can). Indeed, this life is only a prelude to the next eternal life. The majority of Protestant denominations (I am not sure which denomination you are) do believe that a person is required to profess a belief in Christ and as far as I am aware this can’t happen until a person reaches the age of reason, which in turn, means births of human beings. To proclaim the GOood News one has to be alive. Moreover, pro-life is not only a political position it is a religious position: it is God’s will: Thou shall not kill, immortal soul, Sanctity of life, Made in the image of God, all creation is good, Man is very good, etc… However, with all this said the baby, a creature, is not more important than God, himself. (Notice, I did not say that creature is more important than the worship of God, because the worship of God can also be an idol!)
Interesting discussion Ex-GOP.
Reality, give me some examples of conversations between an undecided woman and a pro-choice man. Make it real for me?
Make it real like your online handle implies that you are able to do?
Ex-GOP,
I forgot to mention the Gingrich solutiion for your pro-Birther concerns: take the money from Planned Parenthood et al and give it to Pregnancy Crises centres and Adoption Agencies.
We could also give some of the pro-aboriton dollars to help new Moms and new families.
Perhaps, you have remained too long as an ex-GOP.
“that was just a very weak response, to say that your response would be stiuational(sic). What does that mean?”
Tyler, you asked “what should a husband/boyfirend(sic) say to their wife/girlfirend(sic) who is considering abortion?” to which I gave quite clear answers:
1/ why?
2/ have you considered the other choices?
3/ here’s how I feel about it.
4/ these are what I see as the pros and cons.
5/ what can I do to help with what you choose?
Do you not know what situational means?
“There is nothing situational about these questions” – are you kidding?
“but in Reality’s world the Pro-Choice Man must, by defninition, deny helping his partner” – so you didn’t read 3/ and 4/ either.
“In Reality’s world the woman is left alone” – in Tyler’s world women are told what to do.
Since every situation is different, circumstances are different and the people involved are different, how many potential conversations would you like me to generate?
The reality (which you seem to have trouble coming to terms with) is that there are a vast number of variables.
I leave the creation of fiction to others. They seem to be so good at it.
Reality, Reality
Oh!. The web we weave, when we first practice to deceive…
Please, elaborate on 3 and 4. What would you say, as a pro-choice man?
Please generate at least one conversation.
(At least, we have your admission that you have no experience with these kinds of conversations!!!!!!) I won’t quote all your previous posts where you claim to have such experience!!!
“On the web we weave, when we first practice to deceive…” – so I’ve noticed, all too often.
“What would you say, as a pro-choice man?” – what is it you don’t understand about the variables of situations, circumstances and people?
Someone I was with when I was younger? The lady I was married to? My partner? When I was ‘well off’? Now that I’m far from ‘well off’? Whether we wanted a child? Whether we didn’t? If the fetus was healthy? If it wasn’t?
Being pro-choice does not mean that I automatically assume that abortion is the best option. Or does that not suit your train of thought?
“Please generate at least one conversation” – generate your own, you could learn from a few other anti-choicers around here.
“we have your admission that you have no experience with these kinds of conversations” – no you don’t.
“I won’t quote all your previous claims to having such experience” – please do. Go on, do it. Show me.
You might want to work that shovel a little faster, the quicksand is beating you!
Being saved doesn’t have as big an impact if you aren’t being saved FROM something. How do you tell someone, “you’re a victim, you didn’t do anything wrong, Jesus will save you from it”??? Lifesong is right. For a bunch of “Christians” on this board ya’ll show alot of hatred and disdain for the Gospel and those who preach it!
Carla, I understand you didn’t know. I understand MANY MANY women don’t know exactly what an abortion does to them and their babies, in that sense they are victims, but they did what they did. Many women walk in knowing exactly what they are doing, and are carried out as victims, they are guilty too. There are also many women out there who do believe they know, who are told often of the truth (Megan for one), and for whatever reason, stubborn ignorance, self-protection, denial, arrogance, whatever are unrepentant. They need to know there is an actual eternal consequence for their actions and rebellion.
It is only through repentance we are saved. You can’t repent for something you didn’t do. How do you apologize for something you aren’t responsible for? Jesus knew the adulteress was guilty. He knew, and she knew, the whole crowd knew. The point was that every man in that crowd was equally GUILTY as she. Not that she was a victim. Every sin carries the same weight as far as God is concerned. She repented. Jesus forgave her. That’s how it works. He didn’t say it wasn’t her fault or that she was innocent. SHE WAS GUILTY. JESUS SAVED HER. Only then was she innocent. God is a righteous judge. He loves us all but must punish sin. That’s a fact. That does mean hell. That’s a fact. The GOOD NEWS is that because He loves us He gave us a Redeemer in His Son! Jesus paid the price we owe for our sin. So through His sacrifice we are saved. It doesn’t work unless you first own your sin. How do you hand your burdens over to Him if you deny they are yours???
The miracle of the LOVE and compassion in our Father and His Son is in the fact that they LOVE US even while we ARE GUILTY and it is from that guilt through REPENTANCE that we are SAVED.
“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” -Rom. 5:8
He didn’t die for innocent victims. He died for sinners. He saved sinners.
Mat. 9:10-13 While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew’s house, many tax collectors and sinners came and ate with him and his disciples. When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, “Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners?” On hearing this, Jesus said, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”
I was a sinner before I was saved. I was responsible for everything I did. I acknowledged my guilt and asked Jesus to forgive me for it. He did. In Jesus my slate is wiped clean, my robes white as snow, I am new! Because that is what He came to this world to do. He came to save post-abortive women, abortionists, murderers, thieves, liars, etc etc. Not for the righteous, the victim, the innocent, the “healthy”. They have no “need” of Him. You don’t wash clean clothes. He came for SINNERS.
You and I may differentiate between the woman who believes the “clot” lies and the woman who knows full well and does it anyway, but God does not. He shows no partiality among men. His justice is absolute. That is why we need Jesus. Otherwise, what use was His sacrifice???
Reality, I will begin looking for the quotes tomorrow – although, I really don’t need to, as your taunt in your previous post is proof enough that you have fabricated much. You buried yourself!!
I accept that you are unable and/or unwilling to provide the relevant conversation that would support your own viewpoint on this subject. I would’ve thought that would’ve relished the opportunity to educate all of us Pro-life men as to how we should properly handle a situation(s) where our partners may be trying to decide whether to get an abortion or not. Don’t you consider this a lost opportunity?
I wanted to see the Pro-Choice way in action. I wanted to see the Knight in the Pro-Choice Armour.
How does a Pro-Choice man tell his partner that he is really Pro-Life person when it comes to his own children? Does this Pro-Life man still “respect” her choice and say to his partner that although he is pro-life, he will support her in killing his child?
What is she to think of this cowardly man, this man who will allow his own child to die? What will this man think of the partner that killed his child? How long can they each bury their heads in the sand?
Reality, if you had to deal with this personally I am sorry for your loss. I can think of nothing harder than to remain with a person who has, without seeking repentance, aborted your child. However, that you should not prevent you from trying to ensure that no one else experiences that kind of pain.
“I will beign(sic) looking for the quotes tomorrow” – yeah, good luck with that. I look forward to it.
“although, I really don’t need to, as your taunt in your previous post is proof enough that you have fabricated much.” – keep dreaming.
“You buried yourself!!” – hm, still breathing. Not finding anything to be concerned about.
“I accept that you are unable and/or unwilling to provide the relevant conservation that would support your own viewpoint on this subject.” – man, talk about epic fail on your comprehension skills.
You appear to be rather long on rhetoric and speculation and short on recognising the reality of the situation.
See, I told you that you could be as good as creating fictional accounts of my life, the lives of those close to me and my circumstances throughout life as some of the others here are from time to time. Well done!
How old are you Reality?
55
Reality you have defended your non-response to my question about what a Pro-Choice man would say to an undecided woman considering abortion quite elegantly!
Your failure to comprehend that different situations would generate significantly different conversations within the framework of the topics of discussion I outlined does not make it a non-response.
Only women who are truly broken over their abortions seek help. Only women that truly understand what the abortion did to them and their child seek recovery. Only women that come to the end of themselves and have nowhere else to turn come to Christ. Only women that are in the darkness reach out to the light of Christ and ask Him to forgive them over their sin.
No need to preach to me or throw Bible verses my way. I get it. I know exactly what this journey has cost me and my daughter and where it has brought me and what My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ has done for me.
I WAS a victim. I am not anymore. I am a survivor. I survived my abortion experience, the nightmares, the depression, the excessive drinking. I survived my suicide attempt.
THE POINT I am trying to make is that you do not reach women hurting over their abortions by spouting verses at them and arguing that they are NOT victims when you don’t even know their stories.
So grateful for the friends I have that NEVER treated me or talked to me the way some of you do. So grateful for their unconditional love and acceptance of me and my story and their continued support. They have NEVER condemned me or judged me harshly. Why? Because that is not what Jesus does. He loves. He reaches out His hand through others and it is only grace and mercy that will reach the post abortive woman. Trust me on that.
So grateful that next month I am holding a Rachel’s Vineyard retreat for women hurting over their abortions. I don’t have to hit them over the head with the Bible or continually tell them they are not victims or scream SINNERS at them. They know WHY they are coming. They KNOW they have guilt!! They KNOW they have sinned! The Holy Spirit convicts, not me. I need only listen to the murmurs of their hearts and point them in the direction of The Healer. What a divine privilege!
The disdain I feel is for the judgement and condemnation for women that don’t deserve it NOT for the gospel of Jesus Christ!!
Scripture is not intended to be used as a weapon. Psalm 119
Scripture is not intended to be used to condemn. John 3:17
Scripture is not intended to be used to shame. Romans 8:1
again i repeat….Anybody who supports obamanation is not pro life and they need to stop QUOTING THE BIBLE! we need to get the baby killer out of office!
Reality —
Cannot answer the questions because to answer the question one would have to admit that it is murder and all other arguments fall apart after that. There is no “situational” excuse. There is no “what if”….are you choosing to protect life or are you choosing to destroy it?
You either protect life or you destroy it, or help to destroy it by standing by silently.
Ex-GOP-
Wrote: “we shouldn’t follow a political position.” “We” ????? You.
Abortion is a HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE!!! that has become politicized–this is where the rhetoric and euphemisms have twisted the truth.
ARe you aware that France and Russia (80%) have such high abortion rates that they are effectively committing genocide?
http://www.killinggirlsmovie.com/
There will soon be no French and Russian people ..they are casusing their own extinction. It is a WORLDWIDE Human Rights isse…..
I am still praying for these two young women shown in the photos. I am praying they did not die, that their future fertility is saved and that SOMEONE reach out to them in love to help and support them. I sincerely doubt they signed the dotted line that stated they MIGHT be injured so severely that they could be carried out partially naked and bleeding through a side door.
I wish that I could know how they are but I probably never will be able to find out.
“Tyler – as states are getting their budgets squeezed, they are also squeezing medicaid programs and shrinking the amount of people eligible.”
Ex-GOP – how is the fault of pro-lifers that states are getting their budgets squeezed,etc..?
Ex-GOP and Reality,
What do you make of the fact the pro-life groups have to pick-up the fall-out of the pro-choice abortion movement and due it on their own dime?
What do you make of the fact that organizations such as Rachel Vineyard exist and growing?
What do you make of the fact that Pregnancy Crisis Centres exists?
Do you think Pro-Lifers are just creating these organizations as a ruse, or because there is a real need?
JMJ
Christian Hippie
In Catholic Theology man was created good, fell, and was redeemed by Christ. Christ redeemed all humans for all time. Baptism gives human beings the Grace to live the divine life, the redeemed life. This life, on this planet, is not the same life in quality as the eternal life, but Christ has redeemed our humanity and bestowed us with the Grace to overcome sin. In Catholic theology, non-Catholics are not consigned to hell. Jesus saved all humanity from hell. Non-Catholics may obtain Heaven through living a good life, they will just not have the benefit and enjoyment of having the fullness of our Lord’s Grace and his teaching. The Catholic faith is an extremely inclusive faith. In order to understand how this idea relates to the concept that there is no salvation outside the Church one must understand what is meant by the word “Church.” Most people, including many Catholics, have a far too narrow concept of what the Church conceives as being the Church. The term “Church” includes two definitions: the insitutional Church and the universal Church. The Universal Church includes all those individuals who do God’s will, knowingly and unknowingly. This is why unrepentant Catholic murderers will find themselves in Hell, while decent loving non-Catholics will be found in Heaven.
I hope what I said about the Catholic faith is accurate.
Thank you, Jill, so much for your support and endorsement of Rick Santorum. He brings us hope…in an otherwise (for the most part) un-Christ-like world.
Jeanette O’Toole
Silent Souls for Santorum (Facebook page)
Adoration for Santorum (Facebook group)
ChristianHippie-
You wrote: “you’re a victim, you didn’t do anything wrong, Jesus will save you from it”??? Lifesong is right. For a bunch of “Christians” on this board ya’ll show alot of hatred and disdain for the Gospel and those who preach it!”
What hatred and disdain are you referring to? I see a lot of love, genuine dialoge, prayers, wishes for healing, and hope….
It is an unfortunate fact that Abortion is a HUGE business and highly profitable. Like all business they worry about the bottom line. In the case of Planned Parenthood–the abortion mill is so profitable that they twist the truth, tell blatant lies, spend TONS more money than us Prolife groups to lobby, manipulate birthcontrol and condoms, refuse to show sonograms, etc. etc…ANYTHING to protect their profit–so yes, again these women are often victimized.
It is a matter of fact, proven by research that abortion victimizes women. http://www.theunchoice.com/intro.htm.
They are victimized by it for being coereced into it. It is SUCH an issue that there are now attorney and standard forms for minors to use to protect themselves and their unborn. http://thejusticefoundation.org/cafa/ and http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/Life
Also, Planned Parenthood is under investigation for NOT disclosing risks and offering all options. Christians are not saying that they condone the behavior but they are saying that once can love the person and despise the action.
We as a society have created this culture where it OK to have an abortion–and after years of enculturation one starts to believe that it is the Norm. Women have drank the kool aid for so long–that realilty has become distorted into abortion is OK. This is happening in Russia right now.
The comments you have made aim to separate Christians even in the realm of trying to fight for a common cause. Focus on the cause not the differences–there are TOO many reasons to divide us all…..lets find the reasons to UNITE>
The movement has learned from its own mistakes. Although many of us believe abortion is wrong because God says so. There are those that don’t believe that–“you can lead a horse to water but can’t make him drink” so it was essential that we find a way to reach those women via research, facts, statistics, medical issues etc. We have found a way to reach these women without pushing them away.
Do you really believe we could help these women by condeming them?
We have pushed them away in various ways for so long–we’ve finally learned to take them in, treat them with compassion, help them find their own forgiveness and healing.
Beautiful post Blessing.
Blessing – sorry, catching up here…on your post to me yesterday -
First off, I said most, not all.
Secondly, what I’m speaking to is the culture that cares about a life up until the baby is born, and then fights against health care, education, and all the tools that gives that life a chance to succeed.
Tyler – I think I have four posts from you to catch up on… :-)
The first – I get what you’re saying – I just believe that a person can still make an idol out of a political cause even if it relates to birth. Anything above Christ, no matter how important. Think of the various things Christ asks to give up to follow Him. I just don’t think we can throw out a “but what about this…”. Just my two cents. You make a good argument as well.
I don’t know if Gingrich has much of a solution – maybe if those clinics are providing services in which Medicare/Medicaid pays for things…but they would be getting money anyways. I don’t think grants are involved or anything like that, so he’s simply saying “if” a woman chooses to go to one of these places instead of PP, they’d get that money. Know what I mean?
Third one – it is not the fault of the states – but they can choose how they react. I can speak to Wisconsin, where the choice was to cut many thousand people off of the state Medicaid plan for the poor so that we wouldn’t have to raise taxes on anyone. I just don’t agree with that trade off.
Fourth – I think there is a real need for all sorts of different facilites. Look, we’ve got women all over the country every day that find out that they are pregnant. I have three kids – the hospital bills for each birth cost several thousand dollars, and it takes a heck of a lot of money, time, patience…all sorts of things on an ongoing basis to raise a kid. Any resource helps. I wish that the divide of abortion wasn’t such a divide – the pro-lifers fight seems to be with organizations like planned parenthood, and the pro-choice folks seem to fight against people like Jill and others on this board – and all these resources (energy, time, money) goes to fighting each other instead of helping people out. I understand the divide. There is no reconciliation. It just is tough to see. A lot of money.
I’ve prayed in front of this clinic. It’s definitely designed to keep people out. You also might find it interesting to know the abortionist drives a white Jaguar.
“So grateful for their unconditional love and acceptance of me and my story and their continued support. They have NEVER condemned me or judged me harshly.”
– I wonder at how you can be so bruised by the gospel? You were saved and forgiven! Praise God! What offense can you possibly take now? Yes many are grieved by the Spirit in their heart for their guilt and are convicted already by it, but many also are unaware until told, since “How can they know unless someone teach them?” (Rom. 10:14) It is for them that correction/rebuke is needed.
Carla says:
January 23, 2012 at 7:14 am
^ My point demonstrated. The gospel preached and is met with condemnation. “Don’t preach”. I expect that from atheists and non-believers, and those who are “christian” in name only, but I expected more from this board. :(
You really should read that psalm :) It contains many jems of loving God’s rebukes and judgments. <3 ex: “I will praise You with uprightness of heart,
When I learn Your righteous judgments.”
&
“With my lips I have declared
All the judgments of Your mouth.”
&
“I will speak of Your testimonies also before kings,
And will not be ashamed.
And I will delight myself in Your commandments,
Which I love.
My hands also I will lift up to Your commandments,
Which I love,
And I will meditate on Your statutes.”
(John 3:17) Yes Jesus doesn’t condemn He saves. The Law condemns and the Law was given first so that man might know he sinned and cannot attain to the holiness of God without a Redeemer. Rom. 7 and 8 are very good chapters to read to understand the relationship between the Law and the Redeemer. You do not need a Redeemer without first knowing you have broken the Law and are liable to judgement. This should not offend you since you already have acknowledged this and accepted Christ as redeemer.
Mat 11:6 “Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me” -Jesus
Rom 8:1 – Yes, YOU are in Christ Jesus and are not under condemnation. Praise God. But those outside of Christ ARE under condemnation. They ARE liable to judgement. This is not intended to “shame” nor is this a “weapon”. This is fact. Is it shameful to tell a murderer he is liable to be jailed and/or executed for his crime??? That’s not even hateful! It is simple fact. Those who break the law are liable to the consequences(judgement). It’s not personal against them, it is just the law and, particularly when it comes to a Righteous Judge like God, there is no partiality towards or against anyone in particular who breaks it. When I sped and was pulled over I recieved a ticket and stood before a judge who assigned to me a fine. Was he “hateful” for doing that? When he quoted the statute I had broken was he using the law as a “weapon” against me? “Beating [me] over the head” with it? Was his judgement of my guilt a personal “attack” on me? No! Of course not! But so many here react as though simply mentioning God’s Law does just that!
“The disdain I feel is for the judgement and condemnation for women that don’t deserve it” <– Your judgement, not God’s. In Heb. 9:7 you’ll see that there was a sacrifice for forgiveness of sins “committed in ignorance”. Why would they need a sacrifice if their ignorant/accidental/not their fault/unknown sin was not liable for condemnation? Yes Jesus died for that too. :)
“I don’t have to hit them over the head with the Bible or continually tell them they are not victims or scream SINNERS at them.”
I never said all aborting mothers are not victims. Yes women are victimized by abortion. I only said that being a victim in this case doesn’t necessarily equal innocence according to God’s Law. So offended at His word. So offended that scripture is mentioned. Is His Word Truth or not? You appear to hear screaming and feel violence where there is none. “Open rebuke is better than hidden love.” (prov. 27:5) How do you speak for Jesus when you refuse to hear/use His words??? I praise God that those who God has convicted come to you and Rachel’s vineyard etc. for Christ’s healing! I know you and these organizations save many lives through the redemption of Christ! I worry at your extreme reaction to His Word though.
I praise God that He works in so many ways to bring Repentance! One of those ways is REBUKE, like it or not, and some must be rebuked before they know they are guilty.
“They have NEVER condemned me or judged me harshly. Why? Because that is not what Jesus does.” I begin to wonder if you actually KNOW Jesus. No offense intended. But your Jesus doesn’t sound much like the Jesus of the Bible. Jesus frequently used VERY HARSH language when rebuking the Pharisees and others. Jesus Himself used HARSH rebuke/judgement even with His disciples, saying to Peter, ““Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men.”” But even while saying this He loved Peter. He loved the Pharisees too. He was not being “hateful” or doing the things you accuse me of doing (even though I use much tamer language).
Do you shy away from His word because it may “offend” those you are speaking to? So are you being more mindful of them than God? I am not ashamed of the gospel. I will not stop speaking His word for fear it will offend people! Rom. 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes”
Blessing – I’m on board with all that. I know this is true. I am fully aware of what the abortion industry does and of their tactics to do it. No, I’m not ok with that. I am on your side with that.
“Do you really believe we could help these women by condeming them?” I did not condemn anyone. God’s Law has condemned them already. Everyone. All of us. Abortionist, aborting mother (even in ignorance see Heb. 9:7), liar, murderer, thief, etc. That condemnation is why we need Christ. It is why He died on the cross FOR OUR SINS. Only in Christ are we washed clean and made new and innocent before God. Plus I never said “no woman who aborts is a victim.” I just said that being a victim or being victimized in this way does not equal innocence according to God’s Law of which we are all guilty of breaking knowingly and unknowingly. Thank God for the blood of Jesus!
And I will not allow fear of “pushing them away” make me ashamed of or shy away from God’s Word! It is only in His Word that the power of God to Salvation for these women (and anyone who’s transgressed the Law) is! I fear God above all men/women! :))
Tyler – I believe God, Jesus, and the Bible above all teachings of men and catholic doctrine.
Heather – I hope you don’t believe I ever have/would support the obamanation and what he’s done to this country??? I most certainly do not!!
Went by this abortion mill yesterday and the cover up is on! There was a repair man’s truck parked out front. The railing had been repaired that had been broken forever and the trash had been picked up. The concrete blocks holding up the stairs was still there though. So they are seriously trying to cover up the horrible conditions of their place before the Alabama Dept. of Public Health sees it. If they had been investigated last Friday, this place may have been closed; and these two girls would not have been injured. All these places care about is the money, and they could care less about the welfare of the girls. But when you are in the business of killing babies, who should be surprised at any of this.
Ex-GOP
I agree that it is important to have resources for all new families. I appreciate your compassion for those families who struggle financially and otherwise post birth. However, resources or the lack of them never makes abortion an acceptable alternative, or that pro-lifers themselves are insensitive or that they are merely pro-birthers. As other people have posted, pro-lifers provide a lot of post birth care and support.
The other problem with only identifying material and external resouces as the only solution for new families is that it fails to acknowledge the importance of the internal resources these people have: their fortitude, courage and resilience. Moreover, self-reliance should always be prompted while helping these families with material resources. Material resources alone will not be enough to give these people the quality of life that we hope they obtain. But the promotion of self-reliance requires us to make a few fundamental value judgements that those on the left appear unwilling to make. It means encouraging these new families to have hope.
@Christianhippie
Every sin does not carry the same weight, according to Sacred Scripture. 1st John 13:16-17. There is mortal (grave) and lesser (venial) sin. For a sin to be mortal it 1)must be grave matter, 2) must be done with full knowledge of the sinner, and 3) it must be done with deliberate consent of the sinner. Do many of these women or girls aborting have full knowledge? I’m not so sure.
I have been redeemed by the blood of Christ, I trust in Him alone for my salvation, and as the Bible teaches I am working out my salvation with fear and trembling (Phil 2:12) knowing that is God’s grace working in me.
They don’t want these girls/women dying in their facility. They would rather them be taken to a hospital at death’s door because the death at the hospital would probably be labeled a “maternal death” that is where some people get the numbers on supposedly abortion being safer than childbirth.
They don’t want these girls/women dying in their facility. They would rather them be taken to a hospital at death’s door because the death at the hospital would probably be labeled a “maternal death” that is where some people get the numbers on supposedly abortion being safer than childbirth. need to look at where the numbers come from
Tyler
I am so very thoroughly impressed with your facts, ability to articulate the cause and how compassionately that you represent the Male V Female view that I’d like to see you on all the forums.
For 2 reasons:
1) For my own selfishness to learn more from you and better understand.
2) For others….so they can appreciate your wisdom.
I believe that there is so much to be gained from your perspective, especially with clarifying for us women the real consequences of ‘choice’ and “reproductive” freedom.
Have you ever tried to post on the Planned Parenthood FaceBook site? If not, I **beg** you to attempt it.
Would you consider joining this one FB forum?:
Abolish Human Abortion a no-nonsense, straightforward, Christian group:
http://www.facebook.com/#!/AbolishHumanAbortion
I’d also like your permission to repost your Jan 22, 12:37PM post to the above website?
If so, how do I give you credit? Do you want me to just link back to this forum or is there a website or something you’d be willing to share?
If not, that is OK!
Blessing
I hope your comments are sincere!! In any event, thank-you for the compliment.
Please feel free to post my comment, to paraphrase it, to link it, or to use it in anyway that you see fit.
I will pray that good comes of your efforts and that my comment does not encourage some of the radical left to continue to pursue their strategy of dividing the sexes in order to advance abortion. No credit is necessary.
Blessing,
PS I am checking out the website that you posted… but I am not a fan of FB.
Tyler-
Yes definately genuine. As a matter of fact, my husband teases me that my life is “ruled” by a higher Law. I can’t get away with anything!
Example: Brief story–I’ve done one thing “illegal”in my life during a postpartum depression (hit a parked car and left a mean note, left the scene). The minute, literally the minute I walked thru the door the police were on the phone (and I was only minutes from home!) They arrested me for FELONY hit and run. Yes. Dead serious. Felony because the damage to the quarter panel was ”over $1500″ which is BS. I went to court for a YEAR without a trial for them to tell me to pay damages, on according to the DA, “suspicious” estimates!
So yes, my comments are genuine and heartfelt. I appreciate your sharing.
Thanks Blessing.
Sorry to hear the about car accident. Dealing with legal stuff is never pleasant.
A clinic escort was in one of those pictures. She’s the one in the flourescent orange vest. She was not helping at all, but trying to hide the mutilated young woman from the public eye, as per instruction from the abortion clinic director.
We saw that happen once in the parking lot of the abortion clinic in our town. The young patient was trying to walk to her car, but was stumbling. She looked up and saw us on the sidewalk, and asked for help, so we called 911. She was bleeding through her pants and onto the pavement. A couple of minutes later a clinic worker came out the back door to help, we thought…but instead she ran to the bloodtrail on their driveway and started trying to clean it with a spraybottle and rag as quickly as possible…all the while, the patient was leaning on her car. Then the worker ushered the patient back into the building. An ambulance arrived. An EMT went into the abortion clinic, but in a few minutes left as quietly as he had arrived, without the girl, and without sirens.
Happens all the time. :(
Sorry for double post.
Tyler – sorry for the delay in getting back to you…
I didn’t say abortion was thus an acceptable alternative. I’m saying I find it disturbing when, on one hand, folks are saying we should outlaw abortion because life is precious – and then find it quite acceptable when states are hacking insurance programs that leave those very lives that are born in a vulnerable state.
I also agree that materialistic things aren’t everything – but basic needs and care. maybe I’m a socialist or something – but I think kids should have them. I’d like to see everyone have them…but definitely children. The amount of kids who don’t have their basic needs met is not acceptable.
The long blond haired escort in the orange vest is a guy