Your forties is not the time to be thinking about getting pregnant.
~ Desperate Housewives actress Marcia Cross, who became pregnant with twin daughters Eden and Savannah at age 44 via egg donation, as quoted by the Daily Mail, January 31
[Photo via celebritybabies.people.com]
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I wonder how many tiny humans were created from donated eggs and then discarded so that she could fulfill her desire to have children after she squandered the gift that God gave her to have her own children according to His plan when she was younger.
Was this comment made by the actress herself or by the character she plays?
If the quote was made by the actress herself when was it made? Was this quote made before or after she had her twins?
Squandered? While I abhor egg donation, IVF and the like, not everyone squanders their younger years. Some women don’t find a suitable husband until they are older. We live in the age of man-children and in a society that does not produce many real men suitable for a lifetime commitment and fatherhood. I know a woman struggling with infertility who prayed a rosary everyday for a suitable husband. She even “hunted” on websites. I guess she squandered the gift that God gave her to have her own children according to His plan when she was younger? She was fully submitted to God’s plan, but that plan is not always to marry at 22. My patroness saint, she married at 32. She was a doctor, and it took that long to encounter a man not intimidated by her accomplishments for God.
I guess women who aren’t holy and long-suffering like my friend, who marry in college and divorce 50% of the time, or get pregnant out-of-wedlock- they didn’t squander the gift God gave them to have and raise children traumatized by broken homes or fatherlessness. They should be applauded, right?
But women who have children later in life or struggle to get pregnant, they all obviously squandered their fertility! They were all foolish and chose career over family, of course! Not nannies to other people’s children while praying to marry and have their own, like my friend. A chaste woman who wanted children, but not at children’s expense by marrying an unfit man or having pre-marital sex. And also, not all women with careers picked their careers over family. Want to lower the odds of finding a suitable man to marry when holiness and responsibility in men are hard to find as is? Add a woman who is holy, responsible and emasculating merely by her accomplishments. Men don’t like to be out-ranked. So I guess a woman who gives her all and invests 100% of her abilities in God’s service and makes something of herself was foolish too for not staying a waitress, where her odds of marrying in her early-twenties were better?
Please, keep your judgments to yourself.
Jacqueline – I understand what you are saying. Thanks. I guess my curt comment could be taken in a negative way, and I agree that there are women who, for good reason, may not have children when they are young. And I realize that just because you do not have children young does not mean you are not following God’s plan. Maybe that is the case with Ms. Cross. I also realize that this issue in general is not just the fault of women.
However, I do believe that the vast number of women (and men who are right there with them and complicit in their choices) delay childbearing for selfish reasons that have nothing whatsoever to do with God’s plan. Then, once they decide they want children, they find they are unable to conceive. The same is true of women and men who contracept for years or contract a variety of STDs while “sowing their oats” then struggle to conceive once they are “ready.” So they find other ways to again subvert God’s plan, and in the case of IVF and other artificial means, they create tiny humans and throw out most of them into the trash. And they do it because they want what they want when they want it, regardless of what God may have in mind for them now or later.
As far as keeping my judgment to myself, I must point out that regardless of whatever good intentions one may have, creating a bunch of tiny humans outside of the womb and flushing a bunch of them down the drain in an effort to get pregnant is not a good thing under any circumstances. Having said that, I did not mean to be passing judgment on every woman that did not have children while younger.
If my comment seemed rude or insensitive, I apologize. I truly agree with you that some women may not be “squandering” their opportunity to have children. But I also believe there are many more people doing exactly that than there are women like you described.
Tyler, she made the comments as herself, as you’ll see at the link, and she made them recently, stating her daughters are “a miracle.”
Jacque – thank you for submitting to the Lord’s plan for your life. But just as it is unfair to claim women who do not marry young are “squandering” their lives, it is unfair to claim that those of us who do are to be disdained or painted in a lesser light for their decision to follow the Lord’s plan for our lives. I respect your choices, and you should never, never “settle.” I know I sure didn’t.
Bryan,
I agree with you that women are lied to and think they can put-off having children during the most fertile years and have them whenever they want. I agree that there are probably infinitely more women who do this than women who honestly marry later in life due to circumstance rather than choice. Since we can’t know, it seems best to err on the side of not assuming. I think we can agree that killing children via egg donation and IVF is unacceptable at ANY age for any reason. I think that should be our focus.
Kel,
Oops! I am sorry that my comment came across as disparaging to women who do not marry late. I am with you that the Lord’s plan for everyone’s lives are different. I don’t think marrying late is better than marrying at any other age (obviously, because fertility issues are heartbreaking, especially for people who patiently and earnestly sought to start a family). I don’t think marrying young or average is better, either. It is what God ordains. The woman I have chosen to raise my son who I am trying to adopt (if something should happen to me), she married at 17 (Lauren, she’s a commenter here). She was called to marry young. My son’s godmother was 26, which is average and when she was supposed to marry. My patroness saint was 32, which is late and she was called to marry late. All of the above married when God planned it. I wouldn’t assume to no better than He does or imply that anyone should have gotten married younger or older. I also didn’t mean to imply that people who don’t marry late are somehow “settling” either or that they chose hastily and are more likely to divorce. I merely meant that following the Lord’s plan, even if that plan is marrying later in life, is best.
It really bothers me when people hate on those who did not have children young…I agree that for the health of the mother and child it is best to have children in your 20s…but I will be 23 in April and have no boyfriend and therefore marriage and children are really not in my immediate future, as much as I wish it were. Sometimes I wonder – will I be in my 30s before I have children? What will the so-called pro-lifers think of me for it?
If God has a plan for us and God provides our spouse for us – who are we to say that people should only have children at a certain age.
Of course – this can’t count for every situation. I do not know if this woman is a Christian but with how things go in Hollywood it is doubtful. I do believe that many purposefully put off having kids through BC pills, abortion, etc. when they are already married or financially stable to have children…
But for others like myself and many friends of mine who simply do not have money or are not in a relationship…
A friend of mine has been with her boyfriend for a few years now and she thinks he is proposing soon. She is 25 and he is 27 but she does not want to get married for a few years – because they live with their parents, are still in college (late start for him, major change for her) and do not have the money to raise children.
Now – if they did get married and concieved a child, they are pro-life and would certainly have the child. But what is wrong with natural family planning for those who cannot support a child right now?
This is slightly off-topic because that is not the case for this actress, but it’s a topic that has been raised time and time again on this blog and really hits home and hurts me personally.
Some of us didn’t get married until we were in our forties, that’s just the way it worked out. We didn’t “choose” to wait, just that the opportunity didn’t present itself until then.
I managed to have ONE child without the aid of egg donation, IVF, etc. Would LOVE to have another one, but it’s not working out that way. :(
Don’t have the money to adopt, either.
Trying my best to be happy with “what I’ve got”.
Pamela – my wife and I adopted when we were in our 40s (well, at least I was LOL). We did it through our local “family services” agency and did foster care first followed by adoption (that was the intent from the beginning). It did not really cost us anything, at least nothing beyond what it costs to raise kids anyway. In fact, we were compensated as foster parents – not enough to really cover the costs of raising the kids, bit certainly a big help. I can not possibly say how glad we are that we did that. If you want more children, I would strongly encourage you to investigate that route. You could also consider fostering. It does not need to be expensive to have more children.
Jackie, Amber, Pamela et al – please let me apologize again. I really really did not mean to say that anyone who does not have children young is bad. I completely understand there are many good people who are in fact doing their best to follow God’s plan that do not have children young. My comment was a gut reaction to what looked to me like another story of someone selfishly ignoring God’s plan so they could get what they wanted when they wanted it with no concern for the collateral damage. I should have thought about how it could hurt people who may have not had children young for reasons that were not selfish and that may be struggling later.
Bryan – foster parenting and then adoption is really the best route for all involved – blessings for your devotion to the cause :)
I appareciate your comment and understand where you were coming from – but it’s not just you, this is something I have heard constantly from others here on this blog and sometimes in other places as well and it starts to beat you down…some are far more vicious than you about it – as you say it out of love or as you say gut reaction.
I agree though, those putting it off simply for selfish reasons should not.
Pamela – let me share something else I read just last night while finding information for a question my daughter asked. This is part of an answer provided on the Catholic Answers forum. I thought it was beautiful then, and it is wonderfully appropriate given your situation. The second paragraph is quoted from the Cathechism. If you would like to see the post from which it is taken or read more, there is a link after the quote.
Infertility is a difficult cross, and one that should be offered up to Christ in union with Christ’s own cross. Through union with Christ’s cross, it is possible for a physically infertile couple to be spiritually fruitful, for themselves and for others:
Quote: The gospel shows that physical sterility is not an absolute evil. Spouses who still suffer from infertility after exhausting legitimate medical procedures should unite themselves with the Lord’s cross, the source of all spiritual fecundity. They can give expression to their generosity by adopting abandoned children or performing demanding services for others (CCC 2379).
As the Catechism notes, it may be possible for an infertile couple to take on tasks that fertile couples cannot (e.g., volunteer work, mentoring needy children, engaging in one of the helping occupations that are otherwise too stressful for couples with children), or it may be possible for an infertile couple to adopt a child without a family or foster a child who needs a safe haven.
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=63055
Very true, Bryan :)
Indeed, Amber. It’s a common theme around these parts. That is why I stopped commenting a few months ago. It’s just hateful.
If people want to condemn evil acts that harm children, like IVF (sometimes a consequence of wanting children at a later age), that is fine. ‘Tis quite another to assume the motives and actions of people who use these evil acts to get pregnant. She could have tried for 20 years to get pregnant naturally and finally resorted to IVF. The IVF is wrong, but she did not do anything wrong prior to that. WE JUST CAN’T KNOW! And we shouldn’t speculate.When people hurt children through IVF, that is our business, but people’s motives for trying to have children when they do are frankly none of our business.
The worst part of this sanctimonious trend topic is the level of hatefulness and blame that women who struggle to get pregnant later in life “deserve” this as a consequence of their selfishness or misplaced priorities. Kind of a self-righteous, “That will teach you!” How does this attitude reflect Christ or profit anyone?
I’m pro life.
But I am put off by some of these comments.
Biology says get married at 13 or 14 because we are fertile and able to reproduce.
Economy says doNT get married until you are finacially steady and have a home. Gosh that could be 25- 30 yrs old.
Society says get married at 22, at least around where I live, have 2 or 3 kids, then struggle to pay the bills all your life.
I’m 31 with 3 kids. Married at 22 the first time and had a child. Married at 28 the second time and had two more.
Life is not a fairytale for sure.
I don’t know what to tell a young woman who wants to get married and have kids. But I will say one thing: wait until you are ready, and not selfish. When you get married it’s all about your husband and kids. Not you anymore.
God does not want us to fornicate, so if you find a man you love enough to sacrifice for, then marry him.
This is a complicated issue.
Men can leave a woman at anytime, with her kids to take care of and no education. This is why many women decide to pursue education before family. I know it goes against the fairytale of marriage to say this. But you really need a backup plan.
God bless.
Jacqueline – I agree, we must remember to act in love. Sometimes I myself struggle with remining calm and level headed when people do not agree with me – but when you do agree on a topic – such as pro-life – but then condem those that have not/can not have children even though they are pro-life…it is just sad.
Shannon – Amen!
Tyler – it seems as if it was the actress, and after she had the twins. She is saying it was rough on her to have the kids at a late age and is saying if you can, don’t put it off – she doesn’t want people to use her as the poster child for later-in-life pregnancies to promote it….at least that’s what I’m getting from it.
God does not want us to fornicate, so if you find a man you love enough to sacrifice for, then marry him.
Shannon, I see your point, but it is sad to think our choices are either marriage OR fornication. You don’t have to fornicate if you aren’t married. You can live chastely until marriage doesn’t mean sacrificing for a man. Or are you saying that abstinence is the sacrifice? I’m confused.
As I always point out when this topic comes up…please remember that some people don’t have kids yet because they haven’t “met someone” yet. Not everyone falls in love at summer camp at age 13 or with a college sweetheart at age 20.
Amber – thank you.
Jacqueline – once again, sorry. I most definitely did not mean to be sanctimonious or hateful. And just so you understand that I do not mean to be self-righteous, let me make a confession. Prior to adopting, my wife and I had birth children. And we came to a point that we thought we did not want more children. We made an ignorant decision without regard to God’s plan, and I had a vasectomy. That is a decision that we have both regretted for some time since we came to understand what we had done. And while many people think it was “noble” or something for us to adopt, the fact is that we did it because we felt God was calling us to do it, maybe in part to atone for our earlier decision. Through God’s grace, we have been blessed with wonderful adopted children that have greatly enriched our lives. But the pain of knowing what we did will never be completely gone. And every time people make comments about our having adopted, I am reminded of that choice. I truly understand what you are saying about my initial comment.
J,
Many young people struggle with remaining abstinent when you are in love with somebody. When you are in love, every fiber of your being wants to be as close to that other person as physically possible.
With that being said, you can remain technically abstinent and still be overcome with raging lust. It’s very difficult when you are in love with someone to control these thoughts.
Yes I guess you could say 40 hail mary’s and take a cold shower, but my point here is: don’t live with the man. Marry him. When you live together before marriage it only makes you look bad.
If you love each other enough to move in together, then go ahead and get married. So that you don’t fornicate.
I understand some people think that marriage is for people with money and Cinderella dresses because of what standards society holds us to. But it can be done without costing a small fortune.
God bless.
Bryan,
I am not trying to beat you up! I am not hurt or angry with you and I appreciate your apology. I hate that you feel you have to make more than one. You and me are cool. :) My indignation in my last statement wasn’t directed at your comment in particular, but a theme I see in comments when this topic is routinely brought up. I thnk it is a bad topic that yields bad fruit. I don’t think pro-lifers should be championing having kids at any certain age, but claiming that the could have avoided breast cancer by doing so (previous post) or they could have avoided fertility treatments by doing so.
I am sorry for the loss from your sterilization but grateful that God redeems and still blessed you and your children from adoption. You wanted children and they wanted parents, so it is truly a sign of God’s goodness! You know how two wrongs don’t make a right? God can use a wrong (sterilization) and another wrong (abandoned/abused children) and make good of it. :)
I wonder if people who think it’s “noble” to adopt, like adoption is some sort of charity, do they just not understand what a priceless blessing a child is? Adopting a child isn’t doing him/her a “favor”- it is justice. Children deserve parents. No one deserves a child- you are blessed with a child. And that blessing infinitely exceeds any sacrifices about adoption that would make people qualify it as “noble.” Is it noble when cares for a biological child? No- it’s an expectation. It’s basic decency. However, when a child isn’t born to you, somehow caring for them becomes praiseworthy. I disagree. We have the obligation to care for children because they are children. If a person can care for children who need it, doing so is basic human decency. And those people are infinitely rewarded in being able to care for children and getting to care for children.
I merely meant that following the Lord’s plan, even if that plan is marrying later in life, is best.
Absolutely agreed. Thanks for clarifying. :)
Tyler – it seems as if it was the actress, and after she had the twins. She is saying it was rough on her to have the kids at a late age and is saying if you can, don’t put it off – she doesn’t want people to use her as the poster child for later-in-life pregnancies to promote it….at least that’s what I’m getting from it.
Yes, exactly.
Dr. Oz did a show on this recently. I only saw snippets of it but they were basically saying, there IS a limited amount of time in which we have to bear children, and that fertility is not just something we can turn on and off. I think that what Cross is saying here is that her kids are miracles because fertility treatments can be a long shot, especially for women nearing the end of their childbearing years. It’s not a slam to anyone – just biological fact.
I don’t think any woman should base her worth on whether or not she is able to have children. Some of the most amazing women I know were unable to have children – but they sure have loved on mine. I’m so grateful for them!! Praise God for women who are willing to help other moms and be mentors and encouragers for them. :)
Bryan and Jacqueline, I hope and pray that women do not feel that they are in competition with men, and vice versa. That kind of competition between the sexes only creates animosity between the sexes, power rankings, man-children, and man-hating women. Love is not a competition.
Amber Currie, you seem like a wise young women. Continue to have faith that God has a plan for your life. When God provides you with a Man, don’t let your financial anxieties overly influence your decision to have children. Raising a family always requires sacrifice and has unexpected financial costs. To paraphrase Forest, families are like a box of chocolate. you never know what you are going to get. God will provide for your family as well as yourself. There used to be expression that went something like this: a baby always comes with two loaves of bread. (Perhaps some knows a better version of the expression than I do.)
Adopting a child isn’t doing him/her a “favor”- it is justice. Children deserve parents. No one deserves a child- you are blessed with a child. And that blessing infinitely exceeds any sacrifices about adoption that would make people qualify it as “noble.”
Jacqueline – extremely well-said. You found the words that I could not to explain why it always bugs me when people talk like that.
I agree Kel :)
I know a woman who works with my mom who had miscarriages during her first marriage because her husband was abusive – and because of it she can no longer have children. She and her second husband chose to raise horses instead haha she has a lot of love for her pets :)
But she has neices and nephews that she spends a lot of time with and because she does not have to spend money on children, she can spend more money on charities than the rest of us would be able to manage on a modest salery.
She has also been very kind to me. She gave me the ring that has been handed down in her family for generations. She asked her mother if it would be ok to give it to me because she did not think her nieces would appreciate it and she knew I’d take care of it, and she thought of me as a daughter. I felt very honored and charish it!
She keeps telling me if she wins the lottery she’s going to pay off my student loans…haha one can hope! ;)
My first cousin and her husband have chosen not to have children. Why? They simply don’t want to! They use family planning and condoms and instead show so much love to the rest of the kids in the family. They are Christians (his brother and mother are both pastors and they teach sunday school) and live for Christ every day in every way…but they have never felt led to have children. Nothing wrong with that :)
Tyler – I agree! My grandparents had seven children and never had a lot of money but their children were always provided for through love and discipline. It was a group effort – the older kids helped raise the younger kids and all of the children helped on the farm to provide food for the family.
People today think too much in material…but my Aunt cherished the way that she was raised and talks to me always about the value of love over the value of money :)
Still, it is good to be financially sound if possible haha.
Bryan and Jacqueline, I hope and pray that women do not feel that they are in competition with men, and vice versa. That kind of competition between the sexes only creates animosity between the sexes, power rankings, man-children, and man-hating women. Love is not a competition.
Women do not feel they are in competition with men. Sadly, men DO feel in competition with women. E-Harmony will not match a women with a man if the woman makes significantly more money or has a higher degree than he does. Yet, they routinely match men of higher status/education and income with women of lower ranking. Why? Because research shows that men can’t handle being out-ranked and these relationships fail. Women are fine (and rather desire) to be out-ranked by a man in these areas but it is toxic to a man. In fairness, most women wouldn’t be fine with outranking their husband (I wouldn’t like it at all), so this is a two-way street. Sadly, for women, the more a woman ascends, the pool of available men shrinks into a puddle and then a drop, per both gender’s preferences. I wish more men had their acts together for this reason, but I am not a man-hater as not a whole lot of women have their acts together either. But as a woman, I get the short end of this stick. A man’s success increases his options but eliminates mine. And I get the added bonus of being blamed for still being single because I obviously chose career over family, instead of the truth that less than 1% of men match or outrank me and those odds aren’t great.
Sometimes I wonder – will I be in my 30s before I have children? What will the so-called pro-lifers think of me for it?
THAT’S NOBODY’S BUSINESS BUT YOUR OWN. I had my daughter when I was thirty. My sister had her last child when she was 39.
However, I wonder about women who have babies with egg donation — it’s not really their biological child. Did they just want the experience of childbirth? Do the biological mothers consider the babies THEIR children as well.
Phillymiss, thanks neighbor <3 (I’m from South Jersey haha)
There is something to be said about the surrogate experience – feeling the child growing in you…if you can’t have children of your own and are willing to use an egg donor, I guess you can still experience the growth and birth of your child(ren)? I wonder if in this case she used her husbands sperm – because if so, then they are still his biological children which would be a benefit over adoption for them.
My first cousin and her husband have chosen not to have children. Why? They simply don’t want to! They use family planning and condoms and instead show so much love to the rest of the kids in the family. They are Christians (his brother and mother are both pastors and they teach sunday school) and live for Christ every day in every way…but they have never felt led to have children. Nothing wrong with that.
Actually, there is something really wrong with that. Why would they not want God to bless them with children? What do they gain in return- temporal freedom, privacy and money, but children are eternal. Having children is the natural fruit of marriage, not a choice made to stop the unnatural use of contraception when someone feels “led.” If they do feel somehow that they aren’t meant to have children, that God doesn’t want them to, why would they use contraception? They can’t be living for Christ everyday in every way if they are forceably withholding their fertility- which they are. That’s living for Christ in every way BUT that one, and it’s actually a big one. I am sure they are great people, but this is very disordered.
Jacqueline - if God wants to bless His beleivers with children, do you really think family planning will stop Him?
They do not feel like they are being led to have children and that is their personal decision, with God, to make.
If God wants to bless His beleivers with children, do you really think family planning will stop Him?
Then why use it? Unless you are TRYING to stop something. If I were complying with God, I wouldn’t feel the need to do something that He would have to sabotage. That is not obedience. I also don’t want God to have to thwart my actions to bless me. This does not seem the least bit backwards to you?
Jacqueline – are you against even natural family planning (only making love when you are less likely to be fertile) – what about celibacy? Are those not trying to stop something?
Celibacy is not trying to stop anything. I am celibate because that is the natural state of the single Christians life. Barrenness is not the natural state of a married couple’s life. Rather it is a sign that something is wrong. Health problems, maybe.
This is so strange. Eating is natural. I eat because it is what I am supposed to do. Not eating (fasting) is a choice. They are living like barrenness is the default and you choose to stop making yourself barren if you feel “led” not to be barren. Barrenness is a curse, not a default and certainly not a choice. The Bible is clear on this. It is backwards that people feel they should sabotage nature until they feel led to stop sabotaging nature. This is not the fruit of trusting God in every way- it is not surrendering that area of your life.
I am against NFP used as contraception rather than wisdom/prudence in extreme cases. When used to have children only when the couple wants to have children, that is still trying to withhold their fertility (even though they aren’t perverting the sex act to do so). A Google search can explain all the differences of NFP from artificial contraception. I can’t go into that. I need to get back to work. I wasn’t stirring up something and running away. I should have run off hours ago. :)
Jacqueline – I do not mean celibacy until you find a spouse – I mean those who choose to remain that way for their entire lives – monks, priests, just because…whatever the reason.
We eat because we will die in 3 weeks if we do not. We will not die a few weeks from now if we do not have a baby.
It’s funny – the pro-aborts are always accusing pro-lifers of trying to say that everyone HAS to have children, trying to force women to do so, etc…but I have NEVER heard a pro-lifer say that until just now.
…I clearly know the difference between natrual family planning and artificial contraception – which is exactly why I asked, speifically, if you were against that and not the other forms.
“Women do not feel they are in competition with men. Sadly, men DO feel in competition with women. E-Harmony will not match a women with a man if the woman makes significantly more money or has a higher degree than he does. Yet, they routinely match men of higher status/education and income with women of lower ranking. Why? Because research shows that men can’t handle being out-ranked and these relationships fail. Women are fine (and rather desire) to be out-ranked by a man in these areas but it is toxic to a man.”
Jacqueline, why do you care whether men feel this way or not?
I think you may have out-smarted yourself in your analysis. Here is some food for thought: perhaps men aren’t in competition with women. Perhaps men don’t despise or bemoan a woman’s success. Perhaps, their desire for less career minded women is due to a desire to be a “protector/provider.” Perhaps, they feel the role of provider is the Man’s role, that it is their turf so to speak, even if they are not as good at it as some women are!!! If there are two different roles that need to be played by men and women then a man is not competing with women when she takes on the man’s role; whereas the woman who takes on the man’s role is competing with men. So if there are gender specific roles then men should legitimately feel threatened when a woman takes on the male gender role. Does this make sense?
Since you are educated and socially powerfully you will need to show extra humility. Education and influence don’t happen sporadically or by chance. You would’ve had to pursue these things. And remember these things are not to be valued in themselves but for how they can used to honor God. If you want a Man perhaps you should be able to sacrifice some of the recognition you crave. I am sorry if this seems harsh, but your comments do seem to be a little bit arrogant.
PS – I hope you don’t chalk my response up to the fact that I am not as bright as you are, which I fully acknowledge.
You got it all wrong, Tyler. Women and men both want men to play the provider/protector role. This is why women WANT to be outranked! They want provision/protection, not to be the provider/protector. Men want to be the provider/protector. However, when a woman succeeds on her own to a higher degree than a man, that makes that man and women less desirable to eachother. However, when a man succeeds to a higher degree than a woman, this makes the man and woman MORE desirable to eachother. Women who succeed then are less likely to find a man they want who wants them, leaving women fewer options. This is not a complain about men wanting to be men and women wanting to be women. It is merely mathematically true. I am not suggesting men should change and want to be outranked or women should want to outrank a man- at all. I am merely pointing out a mathematical fact, that successful women have fewer options for marriage.
Since you are educated and socially powerfully you will need to show extra humility. Education and influence don’t happen sporadically or by chance. You would’ve had to pursue these things. And remember these things are not to be valued in themselves but for how they can used to honor God. If you want a Man perhaps you should be able to sacrifice some of the recognition you crave. I am sorry if this seems harsh, but your comments do seem to be a little bit arrogant.
That was totally off-base and downright rude. I did have to pursue these things but I didn’t do it to do it. I don’t care about these things. Sadly, relationships are affected by them. I pursued these things because that was God’s will for me and they just happened to have a false, worldly renown. In truth, caring for my son is a higher calling. You assume to know why I do what I do. I don’t crave any recognition. If I were known only as my son’s mother the rest of my life and do nothing but play with him all day.
PS – I hope you don’t chalk my response up to the fact that I am not as bright as you are which I fully acknowledge.
There it is! You are in competition with me! I have no desire to compare ourselves, but you do. And I probably outrank you and so you tell me to “tone it down a notch” and sacrifice in order to get a man, something I would only need to do if I were wanting someone I outrank (which I don’t) and he was unhappy about being outranked. If you weren’t in competition with me, you wouldn’t feel the need to insult me, say that anything I do only matters in a certain context, etc. If you pursued these things, you wouldn’t feel the need to devalue them to feel better about yourself for not having them. It is you that puts too much value on these things, that I agree, only matter to the extent the glorify God. I would be secure about my role if my serving God involved nothing that the world valued- it just happens that it does. You could be secure in who you are and what you do for God, but men HAVE to compete. You just have to. Thank you for driving my point home.
And with that, I depart (for real this time).
Time elapsed before I finished my edit.
Tyler, I am sorry you are insecure and you think that means I should hide things about myself that threaten you. The truth is that I would only need to hide what I am (that God made me for His purposes to suit His purposes) if what I say is correct and shallow men are intimidated by it. If these things only matter as much as the glorify God (and they do), then why would a secure man be intimidated by them and need me to pretend I don’t have them? The truth: He would only want me to not be called “doctor” because it reminds him that he is not one. If he were proud to see how God uses that role in his service, he wouldn’t mind that recognition. Your lashing out at me is incredibly insecure. That is your problem not mine and nothing I need to change. You have reitterated that you should pursue women who don’t threaten you (which is probably easy, mathematically). You have failed when you suggest that I should have to coddle the insecurities of a man. Yes, I might could get a man that way, but not a man I would want who would complement God’s purposes for me. Any man that wants me to deny something that God uses for His purposes just to feel better about himself: CLEARLY a bad match.
My comment will be brief because I am in no way in competition with you, as I don’t even know you, I was referring to your comments!
I mainly want to comment on this following statement by you:
“However, when a woman succeeds on her own to a higher degree than a man, that makes that man and women less desirable to eachother.”
However, Jacqueline, I don’t even know how to adequately explain how wrong this statement is, so I will just say that I am praying for you to see that it is wrong. I think your too involved in trying to analyze the “power” dynamics of a relationship, which I feel have nothing to do with real relationships.
Additionally, please re-read my comment and i think you will find that it is not that bad or negative towards you.
I recommend that you read Three to Get Married by Bishop Fulton Sheen or what the Catholic Catechism says about Marriage and the relationship between the sexes. Alternatively read Scott Hahn’s book First Comes Love.
God bless Jacqueline.
PS - I never spoke of you hiding things, I spoke of humility. Men can’t compete with women, nor can women compete with men…men love women, and women love men. God loves them both.
This is why I’m freezing my eggs.
God bless you, Bryan for being a foster/adoptive parent! It takes a SPECIAL kind of person to do that! ;)
Believe me, we’ve looked into it but, for reasons too numerous to go into here,
that’s just not the right path for us, either.
Jacqueline, due to my insecurity complex, can you please stop apologizing for my insecurity complex!!!
I think we need to define our terms. What do you mean by success, and what is a successful relationship in your eyes.
I also appreciated that you began to qualify your statements from all men being afraid of your genius to just a few shallow men!! How benevolent of you!!
I hope you can tell that I am just teasing you.
Jacqueline, why do you care whether men feel this way or not? Why wouldn’t she care? How the genders feel (rightly or wrongly) towards each other affect the dynamics between us.
So if there are gender specific roles then men should legitimately feel threatened when a woman takes on the male gender role.
Could you make a list of these gender specific roles, Tyler? (I know I personally love when my Man provides for me by producing clean laundry and protecting it from the dog!)
Does this make sense?
This is the exact statement I use when I am talking with middle school special education students while they are trying to master simple addition. I’m guessing Jacqueline has mastered long division but who knows?
Abortion became legal in the first place due to the poor treatment of women and I’ve often pondered why more men remarry after divorce than women. Any thoughts?
I recommend that you read Called to Question by Joan Chittister. Alternatively read Peanuts by Charles Schultz.
Additionally, please re-read my post and I think you will agree that it is not that bad or negative towards you.
I hope you can tell I am just joking around and hope you aren’t overly sensitive.
God Bless Tyler.
Thanks Praxedes. I found your parody actually very funny. Too bad Jacqueline doesn’t have a sense of humor as well.
Perhaps you can tell me what Jacqueline was talking about when she said that she “outranks” me? I am not sensitive, I am just concerned for her. That is a bizarre way to talk about relationships and acquaintances. She talks about me advising her to “coddle the insecurities of men” – where did she get that from?
I found much of what she said, nay strike that, everything else she said about NFP, abortion, etc.. all ok.. she just has an attitude towards men, or rather, she is down on relationships. I found her remarks cynical and divisive.
Prax.. I don’t want to talk about gender roles lest I rock your boat at home, and cause you to feel that you have been neglectful in not doing the laundry!!!
(I hope that comment wasn’t divisive, but upon reconsideration, it doesn’t matter because I outrank you!!)
I’ve often pondered why more men remarry after divorce than women. Any thoughts?
Men are smart.
Prax said: Abortion became legal in the first place due to the poor treatment of women
Do you have any support to back this statement up. If you don’t I will consider it pure nonsense.
I think a small thing called the women’s movement had a lot to do with it. Also, just perhaps, a court case named Roe v. Wade, deception by groups like NARAL, and the efforts by the eugenics lovers and pop control fanatics had something to do with the legalization of abortion as well. Blaming men is the one thing all these groups had in common. They needed to make men and women opponents so that their sick idea could have traction within the legal community. How else were the abortionists going to get the sympathy vote from the Court and the general public?
Prax: Do you think it is accident that as our world has become more materialistic the abortion rate has risen?
Do you think that there may be a correlation between the increase in the number of working women and the rise in abortion? Of course there is. Motherhood was always a sacrifice for women, it is just more apparent now. Soon the consciousness of womenkind (especially the consciousness in the women’s movement) will awake to this fact!!
The one thing that the Pro-Choice movement has taught all of us is that having more choices is not always a good thing; and that some of the choices we make are actually bad for ourselves, our neighbor, our family, and our society.
Its not the so called ‘successful’ women that men dislike, it’s the pridefulness and arrogance, men find it boring and a turn off. Women with a preoccupation with ‘rank’ , ‘degree’ and ‘status’, regardless of how ‘successful’ they are, are not desirable.
The Bible has several stories about barren women praying for a baby, i.e. Elizabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, Hannah, the mother of Samuel, Eluma, the mother of Samson, etc.. Then there is the story of Joseph being the foster father of Jesus.
Look into the story of Tobit in the Catholic Bible. The women he married had a demon who got rid of her 7 previous husbands. My 1st thought was of the black widow spider. (My bad) Point is that the reasons why of anything may not be what anyone thinks.
The Bible speaks of praying and fasting. Sounds like that would be so that we would be following God’s plan in His time.
That brings me to NFP v contraception. To me NFP sounds like fasting for a time if pray is added.
Contraception sounds more like bulimia. Substitute sex for food, laxatives for the pill, vomiting for douching or abortion and see what you think. “Binge-eating “repeatedly” … together with a feeling that they can’t stop or control their eating … and inappropriately compensating for the over-eating, such as over-medicating with laxatives … or making themselves vomit.” taken from part of the symptoms for bulimia at http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/105102.php
Just thoughts. Do not get your feeling hurt. God loves us all.
Men are smart.
Right. Marriage on the whole works for men. The really smart men think a little deeper about why marriage might not do the same for women and try to change that.
I think a small thing called the women’s movement had a lot to do with it.
Don’t worry your pretty little head about why the women’s movement came about, Tyler.
Its not the so called ‘successful’ women that men dislike, it’s the pridefulness and arrogance, men find it boring and a turn off.
Patronizing men are a turn off and are boring to smart women. Don’t hate me and Jacqueline because we can pick out patronizing men.
I am 45 and very maternal. I did not marry until I was 36. Then I became developed a debilitating illness, and am just recovering, probably needed another 2 years to be in solid, healthy shape. If you ever told me I would not have at least 2 but ideally 4-6 children, I would have rebuffed you. No, I love children. So does my husband. I was a Mentor for a major organization for 5 years. There are many young women whom I have spiritually mentored, from their teen years until their twenties, and still going, from church. I know I have made a difference, made a contribution. However, the devastation for my husband and I – not having our own family – our own flesh/blood children is very real. Please, how could you judge? Don’t. There are as many circumstances as there are families. Just consider and remember. If you have children, get down on your knees,and thank God every day. God is good, no matter what, all the time. (I DON’T NEED SYMPATHY OR SOLUTIONS. BUT, THANK YOU. AND IF SOMEHOW YOUR COMMENT IS NEGATIVE, DON’T POST IT. THANKS ALL. LOVE, KRIS)
Don’t worry your pretty little head about why the women’s movement came about, Tyler.
Prax, can you please stop hitting on me!!
BTW what is your real beef with me anyway? Can you please tell me what I said that bothered you so much? I have lost track of what we are arguing about, or why you are protecting Jecqueline? Was it seriously the question “Does this make sense?” that aroused your hurt feelings and feelings of being patronized?
Prax the women’s movement came about in order to ehlp women get the right to vote. That was accomplished. The movement should have closed shop after the vote was achieved. Issues such as equal pay and helath issues could be dealt with in a way that didn’t classify these issues as women issues but as family and human life issues, respectively. By making these issues gender issues the women’s movement has alienated themselves from half of the population. What is your take on the women’s movement?
Right. Marriage on the whole works for men. The really smart men think a little deeper about why marriage might not do the same for women and try to change that.
Prax, I would have to agree with your premise that marriage doesn’t work well for women, which I don’t, before I took this argument seriously and began looking for answers. BTW, this is a strange comment for a Catholic woman to make. As a Catholic you should already know why marriage is just as beneficial for women as men.
Tyler,
My real beef with you is that you are condescending. Jacqueline doesn’t need my protection; she did awesome by herself. I jumped in because it was obvious you could not see in YOU what she did.
As a Catholic you should already know why marriage is just as beneficial for women as men.
I already know why and how marriage can be just as beneficial for women as men. However, the facts do not support this. My first husband is a Catholic, is patronizing and beat me. When I turned to a priest for help, he said, “Go home and be a good wife and mother.” My ex’s second wife recently left him because he cheats and treats her the same way. My current husband was raised Methodist and treats me like a queen.
I know Catholics who hide behind their religion to talk down to others — usually their spouses (example: ”As a Catholic you should already know. . . .”) It’s strange that you believe one’s religion is a predictor of a happy marriage and spouse.
You are the one that brought up the woman’s movement. Had women been treated the way they should have, the movement would not have been started in the first place. Men still held the powerful positions when Roe was passed (where they gender-specific roles do you think?).
One only has to look at how many girl babies are aborted over boy babies in our world to see that patriarchy is still a huge problem.
Abortion and the birth control pill kills and harms women and children. Where were all the male Catholic protectors? Where are they now? Men have always had more political pull than women. Men have always held the majority of positions of authority in our country but you blame the woman’s movement for abortion?
You said to Jacqueline, “I will just say that I am praying for you to see that it is wrong.” Maybe you could start by praying for yourself to see why smart, Catholic women see you as patronizing.
You assume my feelings are hurt. Wrong; I pity you.
Since your feelings are not hurt and you pity me perhaps you will start analyzing the the causes of legal abortion and stop blaming men.
My real beef with you is that you are condescending. Jacqueline doesn’t need my protection; she did awesome by herself. I jumped in because it was obvious you could not see in YOU what she did.
And what was that Praxedes? BTW, Jacqueline never mentioned anything about me.
Prax, you need to listen to yourself and the way you talk. You have have bad personal experiences and are projecting them unto other people, onto the entire Catholic community, including myself. Hopefully, one day you will forgive those hurt you. (Perhaps you think you have forgiven those who hurt you but I don’t see that by your actions toward me and your statements about men, marriage and the Church – statements that you say are facts, without supplying one shred of proof.) Prax, you should not play the victim in order to win an argument but you should provide facts and sound argument. Also, it is not right for you to play the victim if you are Catholic since you have been redeemed by Jesus and have the opportunity for heaven.
It’s strange that you believe one’s religion is a predictor of a happy marriage and spouse.
Why are you putting words into my mouth. I never said that or implied anything close to this. I implied that you should at least intellectually know what constitutes a good marriage; living it out is entirely different matter. You seem to not even know what constitutes a good and happy marriage. (I am not saying that you are not living a happy marriage; I am just saying that you are not verbalizing your knowledge. Does this make sense?)
IMO your husband should not treat you like a Queen but a child of God. A Queen can begin to act like a spoiled brat. Sometimes the silver spoon needs to be taken from her mouth.
Had women been treated the way they should have, the movement would not have been started in the first place. Men still held the powerful positions when Roe was passed (where they gender-specific roles do you think?).
You have obviously have not thought much about the women’s movement or history.
One only has to look at how many girl babies are aborted over boy babies in our world to see that patriarchy is still a huge problem. Abortion and the birth control pill kills and harms women and children.
Yes abortion does harms women and children, and although it was idiotic male judges that legalized abortion, it was two crooked women lawyers who sought the right to murder her child by victimizing Norma!!! How can you accuse me of being patronizing when I want women to accept responsibility for their actions!! Ultimately, in the final analysis, it is women who kill their own babies – a fact only a lunatic could deny!! As long as women raise the issue of “patriarchy” they are always going to be victims of it. You give power to that which you acquiesce to. Prax, women need to take responsibility for aborting their own children – not the government, not men, not even God.
Where were all the male Catholic protectors? Where are they now?
The Catholic Church has been such a strong and persistent advocate of the pro-life position I don’t even need to respond to this. You are just trying to bait me.
Men have always had more political pull than women. Men have always held the majority of positions of authority in our country but you blame the woman’s movement for abortion?
But this is no longer the case in many Western countries. You would surely have to acknowledge that a women in the year 2012 is not in the same kind of societal position as that of a woman in the year 1812, etc…!!! And in any event, I was primarily confining my comments to the issue of abortion. And women need to take responsibility for this abortion catastrophe.
Finally, how can you hold men, or a patriarchal society, responsible for any abortions in the US after 1973?
Prax, women were given freedom over the life of pre-born human beings and a good many of them decided to use that freedom to kill those human beings. When it comes to violent behavior, are women any different than men? They choose to pick on those weaker than themselves, just like men do.
The right to life of the pre-born human being was never meant to be denied by any other human being.
Prax, I think I know what is really upsetting you.
Don’t worry…I will keep you and your family in my prayers.
I have not said anywhere that women are not guilty in the abortion issue. You brought up the woman’s movement being responsible for abortion so it is you who started the blame game on women. I stated the woman’s movement had merit.
you need to listen to yourself and the way you talk.
This is condescending and if you say it to a girlfriend, mother or wife it is very hurtful and will probably be met with anger and/or tears. And eventually maybe divorce.
You have have bad personal experiences and are projecting them unto other people, onto the entire Catholic community, including myself.
Yes, I have had bad experiences. Hasn’t everyone? I don’t believe that I am projecting anything on anyone but am only responding to your words. You state I’m projecting onto others, yourself and the entire Catholic community? You have a right to believe this, I have the right to adamantly disagree and to laugh at this accusation. But thanks for being condescending once again. I already knew I was a terrible sinner but it’s always nice to be reminded.
Hopefully, one day you will forgive those hurt you. (Perhaps you think you have forgiven those who hurt you but I don’t see that by your actions toward me and your statements about men, marriage and the Church – statements that you say are facts, without supplying one shred of proof.)
Now you know the state of my soul, too. Wow. Please be careful about telling a wife or girlfriend that you know that she hasn’t forgiven someone even if she insists she has. I don’t believe it will fare well for your relationships. It has taken me longer to forgive some people in my life than others, but they all have my forgiveness. In turn, I can only hope they have forgiven me.
Prax, you should not play the victim in order to win an argument but you should provide facts and sound argument.
My argument is sound. Facts: More women are victims of domestic violence and rape than men. More men marry after divorce than women. More men hold positions of authority and power. More women are coerced to abort than not. More abortionists have been men. More female babies are aborted than males.
Where would you get the idea I am trying to win? I’m not trying to win. Are you? Maybe your projecting. . . .
Also, it is not right for you to play the victim if you are Catholic since you have been redeemed by Jesus and have the opportunity for heaven.
Thanks for pointing out that I have the opportunity for heaven. Lord knows, I wouldn’t have known this without someone pointing it out to me. Using your religion to reprimand others is condescending. Gosh, I sure hope some of my non-Catholic friends will be allowed in heaven, too.
The right to life of the pre-born human being was never meant to be denied by any other human being.
I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, Tyler.
I am not trying to bait you. I am not your enemy. Your words speak for themselves.
I’m done here now. I learned a long time ago not to play with fire. I’m pretty good at identifying fires and know from experience how they can burn.
Peace be with you, Tyler.
Not worried Tyler. Thanks for the prayers. I can use all I can get!
I have not said anywhere that women are not guilty in the abortion issue. You brought up the woman’s movement being responsible for abortion so it is you who started the blame game on women. I stated the woman’s movement had merit.
For the record, Praxedes, Jacqueline started the blame game on men and you continued it. You did not state any merits of the women’s movement that I hadn’t already acknowledged.
This is condescending and if you say it to a girlfriend, mother or wife it is very hurtful and will probably be met with anger and/or tears. And eventually maybe divorce.
So be it. If I was having this kind of discussion with my wife I would ask to go to a marriage counselor to help us out.
Facts: More women are victims of domestic violence and rape than men.
It should not matter to you whether the victim of domestic violence is a man or a woman. Prax, you are not looking at all human beings as equal.
More men marry after divorce than women.
Who are these men marrying? Do not these “other” woman have something to account for?
More men hold positions of authority and power.
This has been your primary concern, as well as Jacqueline’s. However, this is all a matter of perspective and what areas of life you are talking about. I would argue that in the area of raising children women, have traditionally, held more authority and power.
More women are coerced to abort than not.
Only if you count China. In the US the women must bare ultimate responsibility.
More abortionists have been men.
I have no idea, but I would simply say all abortionists are scum, male or female. If they fail to repent there is a special reserved for them.
More female babies are aborted than males.
Again, depends on which country you are talking about.
Thanks for pointing out that I have the opportunity for heaven. Lord knows, I wouldn’t have known this without someone pointing it out to me. Using your religion to reprimand others is condescending. Gosh, I sure hope some of my non-Catholic friends will be allowed in heaven, too.
Are you no longer Catholic? BTW I have not reprimanded you, I reminded you of your religion. Is this the same Prax or an imposter? Decent, god-fearing non-Catholics can definitely go to heaven. You are the one who has been condescending. I never called you an enemy. I believe you are an imposter and not the real Praxedes.
In any event, peace be with you and I will appreciate any prayers you would like to throw my way.
IMO your husband should not treat you like a Queen but a child of God. A Queen can begin to act like a spoiled brat. Sometimes the silver spoon needs to be taken from her mouth.
Hey Ty, This is Praxedes husband. She is definitely not an impostor and neither am I. My wife is my Queen and I her King. We are both Children of God and treat each other as such. After reading your comments, I do not value your opinion and if ignorance is bliss, you must be one happy person.
Thanks Praxedes husband, and I am glad you decided to get online and that you treat your wife as you should. And I am sure you have a positive attitude towards all of your Christian brothers and sisters. Both you and your wife have insulted me. She called me fire and you have called me ignorant. As you have not provided any opinions on the subject I can’t comment on where you stand on abortion and man’s culpability in that atrocious act. You need to reassure her that not all men are pro-aborts, if you can handle that!
Nite to you both… enjoy the game.