Speaking of, do liberals also want us to pay for prostitutes’ contraceptives?
Liberals feel that prostitution should be legal, but don’t consider all the regulations, cost of contraceptives that we’re gonna have to pay for.
Hey! If prostitution is being legal, you can bet your naive, liberal behind that people like Sandra Fluke can get contraceptives and abortions for prostitutes paid for with our taxes!
~ Alfonzo Rachel arguing why being socially liberal cancels out being fiscally conservative on PJTV’s ZoNation, March 10
[Photo Credit: catchmebc.com]
Mar.12, 2012 6:45 am |
Contraception, Health care |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Dude. We already use our tax dollars for prostitutes’ contraception. It’s not like they have employer provided insurance that covers it, LOL. They are generally in poverty and get it at county clinics. That we pay for. Weak argument.
Jack, I agree it is a weak argument. Think of how much money we pay for police stings and then prosecuting “johns”.
test
yeah its a huge problem here. we already do pay for their birth control and abortions. id be happy to pay to have them sterilized!
I know a few of these women who have been on the streets for years. they dont want to change. they want that dope. there are so many free programs where they could get clean but they dont want it. what do we do with them?
yeah and to clarify from another post……i dont give the men who pick these girls up a free pass but do you think these girls really screen these men who pick them up? lol yeah right. they could care less if they pick up a disease ( and trust me they do!) its really a huge mess.
Is there any justification for the first sentence? I’m pretty sure that anyone who thinks contraceptives should be covered by insurance plans thinks they should be covered for EVERYBODY by insurance plans. And, I mean, most birth control costs the same amount whether you’re sleeping with your husband or sleeping with multiple men per day. Just a bizarre and fairly weak point for a variety of reasons.
If prostitution is being legal, you can bet your naive, liberal behind that people like Sandra Fluke can get contraceptives and abortions for prostitutes paid for with our taxes!
What this quote ignores is the fact that, if prostitution were legalized, “people like Sandra Fluke” (wtf?) will be getting whatever government-paid medical care they’re receiving with not just OUR taxes, but THEIR taxes. It’s subtle entitlement wordplay that gets thrown around a lot and it bothers me.
this is one issue where id pretty much say “put them on birth control” we have a free clinic here and the hookers go in and get their depo shots. they are messed up in the head and they are irresponsible. i mean most of them are going to have abortions anyway. i was talking to a nurse who said she knew a woman who had so many abortions the abortion clinic knew her on a first name basis.
Libs get all bent out of shape when you call them ‘prostitutes’-they’re ‘sex workers.’ And naturally libs would love to find a way to tax them. They’ll be glad to fund your bc and abortions-with other people’s money.
Just like the problem of abortion the problem of prostitution can only be solved by Jesus. No amount of libertarian or fiscal conservative argumentation Is going to stop it.
i agree John. they need compassion and understanding. there are so many of them. MPQ sex workers? lol they are prostitutes and hookers! i even cleaned that up.
Jack, in the video Alfonzo acknowledges that these things are already being paid for. I think he was trying to make the point that socially liberal ideas conflict fiscal conservatism – that one can’t be socially liberal and a fiscal conservative at the same time – social programs cost money.
i agree John. they need compassion and understanding.
How is lol’ing about them re: terminology, and saying they should be “put on birth control” and are “messed up in the head and irresponsible,” and saying you’d happily pay to have them “sterilized,” exhibiting compassion and understanding?
How is killing their children exhibiting compassion and understanding?
Yeah, heather. They need compassion and understanding. After your 3+ rambling posts about how dirty they are, they only want drugs, they don’t want to change, blah blah blah.
Or, sorry, let me translate:
they are so dirty they only want drugs they don’t want to change.and they have diseases and blah blah blah
“How is killing their children exhibiting compassion and understanding?”
…I don’t think that killing their children exhibits compassion and understanding. I’m not going around killing their children and I didn’t advocate that in any comment of mine. But I find NO compassion or understanding in saying that they should be sterilized, that they should be put on birth control, etc, and I find it interesting to say these things and then claim that people need to be compassionate and understanding.
John L., yesterday on the Weekend Question Thread there were a few posts to your comment at 12:51 pm.
I agree with your statement above about the need for Christ; but how do you explain this to Public. Obviously we can’t stop them from having irrational fears that “Catholics/Christian will impose” their beliefs on them.
oh whatever sorry i dont always type out what people think i should. *eyeroll*
Alexandra I appreciate your sensitvity but how exactly would you talk about, for example, child molestors? Can we say child molestors are ”messed up in the head?” Are you complaining about the words people use or the content of the message?
I think the content is most likely accurate, so you must be complaining about their choice of words. Could you please explain?
I think you have unfairly characterized Heather’s words. I thnk you have got caught up in her words and lost sight of her point.
Furthermore, if you examine President Obama’s word I am sure you would be hard pressed to find a nasty word – all of them would be civil. But then what does he use those civil words for – he uses them to support abortion, even partial birth abortion. so it is not the words we use they make one uncivil but their intent.
thanks tyler yeah id like to know if they consider these women clean and wonderful??? BE HONEST! what if you caught your husband with one? i was just saying that they DO spread diseases and they ARE messed up. they need the Lord.
“One can’t be socially liberal and fiscally conservative at the same time.”
There are many people who are just that, but many (most?) social liberals believe that social programs are good and should not be cut. These programs are what strengthen our country: education, healthcare, et cetera. In any case, there are people who are socially conservative and claim to be fiscally conservative but are not actually.
I think conservatives make a point that us liberals don’t make and that’s that we do need to work in a budget and we do need to get the budget balanced, but you aren’t going to convince us that the cuts need to be made in social programs.
For pro-lifers, really, this is a very relevant question, as we need to examine what sorts of social programs to fund (or debate which ones not to fund) to help out women and children. We need to know what issues to tackle in healthcare and we need to know what issues to tackle in education.
Alexandra I appreciate your sensitvity but how exactly would you talk about, for example, child molestors? Can we say child molestors are ”messed up in the head?” Are you complaining about the words people use or the content of the message?
I would definitely have some words to describe child molesters. Which words I used would probably change depending on whether I felt that these people needed “compassion and understanding” or not. It would be pretty dissonant for me to say, “They are sick disgusting people!” and then, a few minutes later, say, “They need compassion and understanding.”
I think you have unfairly characterized Heather’s words. I thnk you have got caught up in her words and lost sight of her point.
No, I definitely have a problem with more than just heather’s words. I have a major problem with her thinking that prostitutes should be sterilized or “put on birth control.” And my problem with her language was not that I found it crass but that I found it at odds with her assertion that these people need compassion. Anyone is welcome to say what they want. Inconsistency bothers me. There is NOTHING compassionate or understanding about offering to pay to sterilize human beings.
Personally, I find nothing funny about prostitutes, or even something as trivial as how “clean” we can be in referring to them. I find a lot of sadness and disappointment. I don’t think that most of them are messed up in the head. I do think that their lives have gotten messed up, and have messed them up to some extent.
Furthermore, if you examine President Obama’s word I am sure you would be hard pressed to find a nasty word – all of them would be civil. But then what does he use those civil words for – he uses them to support abortion, even partial birth abortion. so it is not the words we use they make one uncivil but their intent.
As for this – there is no reason that people cannot be noble in action and civil in tone. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts or anything.
well if you sell your body for ten dollars id say youre messed up. just sayin
” Alexandra I appreciate your sensitvity but how exactly would you talk about, for example, child molestors? Can we say child molestors are ”messed up in the head?” Are you complaining about the words people use or the content of the message?”
Are you seriously morally equating predators to people who are, for the most part, preyed upon themselves? That’s a bit messed up, just saying.
“
I would refer to them as “prostitutes”, not “hookers”. I personally feel compassion for them, because they were somebody’s little girls once. Most (not all but MOST) prostitutes become what they are because they were abused and/or neglected at home and either ran away or were tossed out onto the streets. Pimps prey on these vulnerable girls by offering them food/shelter, give them “attention” and/or “comfort”…
What abused/neglected little girl wouldn’t eat that up? The pimps know that. They then “reel them in” by either OFFERING them drugs. “here..try this..it’ll make you feel better (about your situation)”, or by FORCING drugs on them. Then, they’re right where the pimps want them…dependent, helpless, etc.
A young girl doesn’t just wake up one day and say “I want to be a prostitute!” It’s not something to aspire to.
So let’s have a little human compassion for them, shall we?
For all who think that it’s just awesome to judge prostitutes harshly… Did you know upwards of 60% of them were sexually abused as children? That’s most likely an underestimate. A lot of the prostitutes I knew left home very young to escape abuse, ended up preyed upon by some pump who was trolling for young girls. These guys get the girls hooked on junk or crack, then they basically own them. And take it from me, addiction isn’t always a matter of “nor wanting to change”. I am happy that yall are perfect and awesome, but perhaps some GENUINE compassion might do you well.
Thanks, Pamela. You beat me to it, haha. Seriously, people who are in the sex industries are humans too.
Well..you know what they say, Jack. “Great minds think alike”! ;)
Just like the problem of abortion the problem of prostitution can only be solved by Jesus
It would also help if men wouldn’t solicit prostitutes. I know it takes two to tango, but you can’t have a supply without a demand.
For all who think that it’s just awesome to judge prostitutes harshly… Did you know upwards of 60% of them were sexually abused as children? That’s most likely an underestimate.
You’re right Jack, many, if not most, sex workers have been abused in some way or other. More than a few are incest survivors. I know that there’s some people (male and female) who enjoy being sex workers, but generally speaking, that’s not a psychologically healthy way of making a living.
Right, phillymiss. I love how people tend to act like prostitution is some female problem. Not only do men supply the demand, but there are plenty of male hookers as well. A lot of the boys are underage, and all the ones I knew were hideously abused at home. All in all, people usually don’t go into the sex industries for fun.
I would definitely have some words to describe child molesters. Which words I used would probably change depending on whether I felt that these people needed “compassion and understanding” or not. It would be pretty dissonant for me to say, “They are sick disgusting people!” and then, a few minutes later, say, “They need compassion and understanding.”
Why would it be dissonant? What is not compassionate about calling a sick person sick, or a person who does disgusting things disgusting?
“No, I definitely have a problem with more than just heather’s words. I have a major problem with her thinking that prostitutes should be sterilized or “put on birth control.” And my problem with her language was not that I found it crass but that I found it at odds with her assertion that these people need compassion. Anyone is welcome to say what they want. Inconsistency bothers me. There is NOTHING compassionate or understanding about offering to pay to sterilize human beings.”
in your opinion sterilization (which doesn’t have to be permanent) is not compassionate; but perhaps others do think it is compassionate. Is it more compassionate for a prostitute to endure repeated abortions, repeated surgery? Is being tolerant of the pro-choice position compassionate towards the unborn, and compassionate to the Mother who has been manipulated by MSM to think it is her only solution. Is it compassionate for liberals to endorse prostitution by remaining silent on the topic?
Jack–I know I’m hard-headed and miserable to interact with most of the time, but I just wanted to let you know that I respect your viewpoints a lot. You and Xalisae.
Alright, carry on.
I just hope compassion hasn’t come to mean silence, or not passing moral judgment.
“I think conservatives make a point that us liberals don’t make and that’s that we do need to work in a budget and we do need to get the budget balanced, but you aren’t going to convince us that the cuts need to be made in social programs.”
Vannah, in order to create a balanced budget the government has to make sure its expenditures do not exceed its revenues. To create a balanced budget implies there will be cuts because currently the government is spending more than it is receiving in revenue. It is the refusal to recognize that running deficits is as much of a threat to social programs as are prudent cuts. In fact, if the government does not create a balanced budget they may lose the ability to decide which programs are kept and which programs are cut.
Me: Alexandra I appreciate your sensitvity but how exactly would you talk about, for example, child molestors? Can we say child molestors are ”messed up in the head?” Are you complaining about the words people use or the content of the message?”
Jack: Are you seriously morally equating predators to people who are, for the most part, preyed upon themselves? That’s a bit messed up, just saying.
A little self-awareness, you are willing to call me messed up but not prostitutes. That is a little hypocritical. -
And for the record I was not equating prostitutes to child molestors hence the phrase “for example.” Jack were equating me to a prostitute?
“Word and Thought” Police Need not apply – this website has Jack.
“As for this – there is no reason that people cannot be noble in action and civil in tone. They’re not mutually exclusive concepts or anything.”
I agree with using civil words and actions and I believe Heather has. Tone, however, often is as much dependent on the listener/reader as it is on the writer IMO.
Furthermore, for Jack to say Heather judged prostitutes harshly is a bit over-the-top.
Thanks Megan, I don’t find you miserable to interact with, btw. Just… challenging. :)
“A little self-awareness, you are willing to call me messed up but not prostitutes. That is a little hypocritical. –
And for the record I was not equating prostitutes to child molestors hence the phrase “for example.” Jack were equating me to a prostitute?
“Word and Thought” Police Need not apply – this website has Jack.”
Well, that’s my personal bias, we all have it. I never claimed to be perfect. I have more judgement in me for people who sit on a high horse and judge broken people doing desperate things than I have for the broken people doing desperate things. There are a few things that I have experienced/been around a lot and have a lot of information about, and I speak with that experience. Prostitution/street life is one of them, addiction is another, being sexually abused is still another. I tire of the misinformation and judgments, and seek to correct them. You and Heather, and anyone else, are free to disagree, just as I am free to argue right back.
I think it’s absolutely stunning that I never hear the invectives towards prostitutes directed at, you know, those pervs who actually think it’s cool to buy sex from them. Or towards the pimps.
I don’t think so, Tyler.
For her to make all sorts of characterizations about them, then go on to say “but they deserve compassion” makes the last part sound insincere. Or makes her sound schizophrenic. Take your pick.
You could always tell the kids who were getting abused at home when I was in high school. They were the “loose girls”. You know why they were? They had been conditioned to be such. That’s not their fault. That’s the result of a sick adult who should be punished to the full extent of the law.
Such is the way with girls who get stuck doing it for a living. What is the life expectancy of a prostitute on the streets? Not long? You think it’s because they just LOVE what they’re doing so much?
Gah. Think about it for a second.
Good points, Jack and Xalisae. We all need reminding of that sometimes.
Thank you, Megan. You can never know how appreciated your comment was. I was in dire need of that today.
Thank you also for the consideration. It means a lot to me.
Take care.
Hi Megs,
Your comment was a breath of fresh air to read today!
Thanks for that.
Jack,
I have a facebook friend who is a former prostitute who goes back to the streets to help women leave. An amazing ministry.
As you may have noticed I get a little bristly when post abortive women receive others contempt. :)
“I have a facebook friend who is a former prostitute who goes back to the streets to help women leave. An amazing ministry.
As you may have noticed I get a little bristly when post abortive women receive others contempt. ”
That’s pretty awesome Carla, about your friend. That’s the same reason I volunteer to help street kids. Who better to help people in that spot than someone who lived through it?
And I hear yeah. I think the condemnation is counter-productive and cruel, especially directed at already hurting people. Funny, I have had friends go on rants about “lazy, pathetic” drug addicts and “slutty, disgusting” hookers, not knowing that I was the former and narrowly escaped being the latter. They are usually a bit embarrassed when I set them straight, unless they are really that judgmental. :/
I had that happen to me too.
An old friend that I hadn’t seen in years went out for lunch with me. She started talking “issues” and said, “What kind of woman has an abortion?? What kind of woman kills her own child??”
And yes. I did tell her what kind of woman. This kind.
Not too awkward!!! ha
“Well, that’s my personal bias, we all have it. I never claimed to be perfect. I have more judgement in me for people who sit on a high horse and judge broken people doing desperate things than I have for the broken people doing desperate things. There are a few things that I have experienced/been around a lot and have a lot of information about, and I speak with that experience. Prostitution/street life is one of them, addiction is another, being sexually abused is still another. I tire of the misinformation and judgments, and seek to correct them. You and Heather, and anyone else, are free to disagree, just as I am free to argue right back.
I think it’s absolutely stunning that I never hear the invectives towards prostitutes directed at, you know, those pervs who actually think it’s cool to buy sex from them. Or towards the pimps.”
Jack, perhaps you can allow Heather to have a personal bias too. For the record, Heather did comment on the “Johns” and implied that she didn’t think too highly of them. Personally, I think “Johns” are the victimizers of the prostitutes and that the criminal system excessively focuses on the prostitutes rather than the “Johns”.
Heather is free to have her opinions, Tyler. Never said that she wasn’t. I don’t have to agree, however. And I will always argue against the way that people treat street people, especially prostitutes, as “others”.
Why would it be dissonant? What is not compassionate about calling a sick person sick, or a person who does disgusting things disgusting?
in your opinion sterilization (which doesn’t have to be permanent) is not compassionate; but perhaps others do think it is compassionate. Is it more compassionate for a prostitute to endure repeated abortions, repeated surgery? Is being tolerant of the pro-choice position compassionate towards the unborn, and compassionate to the Mother who has been manipulated by MSM to think it is her only solution. Is it compassionate for liberals to endorse prostitution by remaining silent on the topic?
So if I said that you should have your mouth sewn shut and your tongue cut out, because you say things I don’t like – but then in the next breath I say that really what you need is my compassion and understanding – you would honestly buy ANY argument that, by attempting to protect you from the embarrassment of your own free speech, I was being compassionate towards you? Talk about relativity. Lots of people THINK they are being compassionate by killing unborn children who will grow up poor or who have physical disabilities. Are they being compassionate and understanding, merely because they think they are? Or does their lack of understanding need to be pointed out and have light shed on it? Kind of like, oh, “compassion” that involves lol’ing at people and advocating their sterilization?
I NEVER said it was compassionate for “liberals” to endorse prostitution by remaining silent on the subject. I NEVER said that repeated abortions are compassionate, or abortion at all. All I said was that advocating for the sterilization or coerced birth control of prostitutes is NOT compassion. It’s not an either/or situation, here.
xalisae, I will let Heather explain her comments.
But I will say that before one can be compassionate and loving to someone the caregiver has to understand the situation of the victim; otherwise, the person being loved will just resent it and think you are insincere. One has to respect the fact that even though they are victims they still chose this line of work, even though they didn’t really have many options, and were “forced” to enter the life of a prostitute due to economic circumstances. If the caregiver doesn’t respect the victim’s autonomy, and tries to sugar-coat the victim’s activity, the victim is going to see through the caregivers false compassion and understanding. To me it sounded like Heather understood and was expressing the full-extent of the typical prostitute’s dire situation – no more and no less – and it was this understanding that prompted her to utter the statement that prostitutes are in need of “compassion and understanding.”
“These programs are what strengthen our country: education”
:-/
In theory, yes.
Jack, Heather did not treat prostitutes as “others.”
xalisae, to me Heather’s comments sounded neither insincere nor schizophrenic; to me her comments sounded concerned, frustrated and disappointed – in short I heard a woman who cared about the plight of prostitutes.
that is my last word on this topic.
Jack my pet peeve is seeing caring people fight over who is more caring.
Tyler, I am really, really trying to be polite. But you have no idea what you are talking about.
“But I will say that before one can be compassionate and loving to someone the caregiver has to understand the situation of the victim; otherwise, the person being loved will just resent it and think you are insincere.”
So *all* prostitutes “don’t screen the men they pick up and don’t care if they get a disease”? When people make sweeping generalizations like that, it is neither caring nor understanding of the situation the victim is in. You know, a darn good portion of them are literally held captive by their pimps. These men are dangerous. And I really do not have the inclination to explain addiction to y’all, or the pitiful way that our society deals with mental health issues. Suffice to say that you don’t know what it’s like, and you really don’t understand what a struggle these issues are.
“One has to respect the fact that even though they are victims they still chose this line of work, even though they didn’t really have many options, and were “forced” to enter the life of a prostitute due to economic circumstances.”
Blatantly false, in a lot of cases. What are you going to tell a 14-year-old incest victim who runs away from home so her/his father can’t rape her/him? That she/he had better options and she/he *chose* that life? Sheesh. The only reason I didn’t end up a boy hooker is because I happened to be a quite talented thief and a decent dealer. If my circumstances were different, I would have been stuck in that life with no real options. NO options Tyler, not with my mental health issues at the time and the way I was raised.
“If the caregiver doesn’t respect the victim’s autonomy, and tries to sugar-coat the victim’s activity, the victim is going to see through the caregivers false compassion and understanding. To me it sounded like Heather understood and was expressing the full-extent of the typical prostitute’s dire situation – no more and no less – and it was this understanding that prompted her to utter the statement that prostitutes are in need of “compassion and understanding.””
Well, Heather (and you) might need to actually, genuinely understand the plight of a whole lot of people in the sex industries before making a lot of assumptions and offensive statements. She and you do not *know* the full extent of the lives of those who are in those situations, and to make baseless assumptions causes real damage.
Alexandra, (sorry I said last word before I saw the post by you.)
“All I said was that advocating for the sterilization or coerced birth control of prostitutes is NOT compassion. It’s not an either/or situation, here.”
Then don’t attack Heather, attack her argument – which I think mischaracterized. Again, I think Heather was expressing her frustration. She never talked about making sterilization mandatory only that she would be happy to pay for it. She didn’t even specify the type of sterilization she would pay for, so I think your admonishment was a little premature, though noble in spirit.
Jack, just saw your last post (haven’t read it) but I will let it be the last word – hopefully it is fair.
“I NEVER said it was compassionate for “liberals” to endorse prostitution by remaining silent on the subject. I NEVER said that repeated abortions are compassionate, or abortion at all. All I said was that advocating for the sterilization or coerced birth control of prostitutes is NOT compassion. It’s not an either/or situation, here.”
Alexandra, Heather did explain her reason for being willing to pay for the sterilization of prostitutes. She said that they would end-up getting more abortions anyway. She argued that prostitutes who are not sterilized ares more likely to get pregnant again. (For the record, I don’t think Heather was implying that prostitutes shouldn’t use condoms if they get sterilized.) A second or third pregnancy means more than likely that the prostitute will have more than one abortion. Plus, don’t get mad at me, lest your tone begins to offend yourself.
Then don’t attack Heather, attack her argument – which I think mischaracterized. Again, I think Heather was expressing her frustration. She never talked about making sterilization mandatory only that she would be happy to pay for it. She didn’t even specify the type of sterilization she would pay for, so I think your admonishment was a little premature, though noble in spirit.
Excuse me, where did I attack heather? I asked her a question related to what I saw as the hypocrisy of her comments. She did not answer. I did not call her a single name or even describe her in even a mildly offensive way, like, say, “irresponsible” or “messed up.” Speaking of which, you haven’t addressed my point about “relative compassion” yet.
As for sterilization and birth control – normally, Tyler, you are the first one to come in to a birth control thread and tell people why birth control is wrong, why it is damaging. (I am not pro-birth control, for the record. I have never used hormonal contraception and currently use NFP.) Why do you think that prostitutes are exempt from your standards? If xalisae has enjoyed contraception in the past you tell her that she deserves better; if prostitutes find a shelter for their lifestyle in contraception you think it’s a-ok for heather to advocate “putting them” on birth control? or sterilizing them? If contracepting couples deserve better than contraception, don’t prostitutes deserve better than sterilization?
And then: If both a Georgetown student AND a prostitute are going to abort if they get pregnant, can you logically say that you support paying for the prostitute’s birth control, but don’t support paying for the student’s birth control? You can’t argue both sides of this coin. Either contraception means fewer abortions and thus is worth supporting, or it doesn’t. Funny how once prostitutes come into the mix it’s always “Yes, but….” All those other women – they should have higher standards. They should behave better. Icky yucky sick-in-the-head messed-up irresponsible prostitutes, well, it’s easier just to line them up and sterilize them. No standards for them whatsoever.
I am not mad at you in any way. I actually quite like you, Tyler. But I do find faulty logic irritating.
“ Funny how once prostitutes come into the mix it’s always “Yes, but….” All those other women – they should have higher standards. They should behave better. Icky yucky sick-in-the-head messed-up irresponsible prostitutes, well, it’s easier just to line them up and sterilize them. No standards for them whatsoever.”
Thank you Alexandra. Drives me crazy.
Jack, Heather, Tyler;
What is your opinion of Sophia Loren’s portrayal of Aldonza in Man of La Mancha?
If you’ve not seen the movie, there are clips of it on youtube.
I like that movie, I think she portrayed the character arc wonderfully. I like that she just needed to be shown respect and kindness for her anger and self-protection to melt. I especially like the line:
“Can’t you see what your gentle insanities do to me? Rob me of anger and give me despair. Blows and abuse I can take and give back again, Tenderness I cannot bear.”
Which really, since she had been abused her entire life, it was all she had ever known and all she could handle.
My favorite scene. http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/sophia-loren-aldonza/21521c317540f248e29221521c317540f248e292-1236734641262?q=Man%20of%20La%20Mancha%20Sophia%20Loren
And I seriously think Sophia Loren is one of the most gorgeous actresses to ever grace the film industry, so there’s that, lol.
It’s like a SAW-na in here!
Jack,
And it got even hotter. Sophia Loren and musicals! I haven’t see that movie in at least 30 years.
Things we have in common are piling up, Jack! :)
jtm my favourite movie about prostitution and the legal system is I Want to Live – that movie is just amazing. I think the Libs will like it too.
Alexandra I like you too, a little bit too liberal at times but hey we all have been there.
“Excuse me, where did I attack heather? I asked her a question related to what I saw as the hypocrisy of her comments. She did not answer. I did not call her a single name or even describe her in even a mildly offensive way, like, say, “irresponsible” or “messed up.” Speaking of which, you haven’t addressed my point
about “relative compassion” yet.”
Your comment on March 12, 2012 at 12:50 pm questioned Heather’s compassion and understanding of prostitutes.
“As for sterilization and birth control – normally, Tyler, you are the first one to come in to a birth control thread and tell people why birth control is wrong, why it is damaging. (I am not pro-birth control, for the record. I have never used hormonal contraception and currently use NFP.) Why do you think that prostitutes are exempt from your standards? If xalisae has enjoyed contraception in the past you tell her that she deserves better; if prostitutes find a shelter for their lifestyle in contraception you think it’s a-ok for heather to advocate “putting them” on birth control? or sterilizing them? If contracepting couples deserve better than contraception, don’t prostitutes deserve better than sterilization?”
Excellent points here. I do have a practical side to my thinking as well. First, I agree and believe that all contraception is morally wrong (yet I believe only the forms of contraceptions that are abortive should be made illegal) and I think this should be told to prostitutes as well (along with a call to conversion). Second, if conversion is not possible or desired and I had my way I still advocate they find other work. Failing that, I would advise they protect themselves from all forms of STDs and ensure that they don’t get pregnant. So I don’t think Heather was saying that sterilization is the optimal situation but that it is a rational solution.
Finally, we can hold a pro-life woman who dearly loves her children and a prostitute to different standards, while admitting that both individuals share an ultimate standard that applies to both of them. In fact, I think it is very unfair that you brought xalisae up and that you seem to think it is not possible to treat people differently, while still loving them and desiring that they achieve what one believes is ultimate good for all people.
“And then: If both a Georgetown student AND a prostitute are going to abort if they get pregnant, can you logically say that you support paying for the prostitute’s birth control, but don’t support paying for the student’s birth control? You can’t argue both sides of this coin. Either contraception means fewer abortions and thus is worth supporting, or it doesn’t. Funny how once prostitutes come into the mix it’s always “Yes, but….” All those other women – they should have higher standards. They should behave better. Icky yucky sick-in-the-head messed-up irresponsible prostitutes, well, it’s easier just to line them up and sterilize them. No standards for them whatsoever.”
First an observation – would a conservative get away comparing the situation of Ms. Fluke with a prostitute? A second point – I never said Heather’s opinion was my opinion or that I supported it, I only understood her point and I thought you unfairly attacked her.
In any event I think the prostitute and Ms. Fluke should pay for their own birth control and sterilization if they want it, as long as it is non-abortive sterilization such as tubal ligation. I am not for OC sterilization.
A person’s actions/career does define their character to a certain extent and does determine the standard we hold them to. For example, we hold children to a lower threshold of morality than adults. However, even with these varying thresholds we can always keep the ultimate standards in view and as our ultimate goal. Some people can jump from having low standards to very high standards, but others need to progress through varying levels of standards. I definitely think everyone should live by the highest possible standard, the trick is finding a way to help them get there. I hope what I said is fair.
Here is an ironic insight from Mark Steyn on the Ms. Fluke scenario:
Nor is it even the distinctively American wrinkle the Republic of Paperwork has given to governmentalized health care, under which the “right to privacy” the Supreme Court claimed to have discovered in Griswold v. Connecticut and Roe v. Wade will now lead to thousands and thousands of self-insuring employers keeping computer records of the morning-after pills and herpes medication racked up by Miss Jones on reception.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/293094/fluke-charade-mark-steyn
yeah ive spoken to some of these girls…..theyve been on the streets for YEARS. i lnow on woman who is a crack addict. shes been on the streets from the age of 13 she is 46 now. in and out of jail. yet another had 13 kids and has custody of none. yet im a schizo? lol……okay then do you guys have a better solution? i guess Tyler got it!
at BTW i know incest survivors and they didnt become hookers ( that word has been around forever) should i call them ladies of the evening? prostitutes have gotten help and left the profession. we have programs here. as ive explained ive met a few and they like the drugs and they dont want to get off the streets. These women spread diseases AIDS HERPES.etc. i never said i hated them but what are you really going to do? okay let them go fill up the abortion clinics and have 19 kids that are taken from them. i said to put them on BC because its better than abortion and having crack addicted children.
yeah Jack im well aware that some of these men and women who prostitute have had it bad…no doubt. so do you go out to the streets and try to talk to them? perhaps you do. i have spoken to a few too with compassion. they tell me pfft yeah right. you might be able to reach a few but there are so many of them. what is your solution?
Alexandra are you going to do your part and go out and talk to the prostitutes? let me know how it goes.
lets not forget to give men who prey on prostitutes some compassion too. many of them were vitims of sex abuse and addicted to porn. i mean lets be fair you oh so tolerant people. and men who molest children…lets show them compassion too. dont call them creeps and sickos because many of them were victims of sex abuse too. nope dont call the pedophiles !
Megan you should respect their view points. you also need help in dealing with your abortion!
hey Tyler thank you for understanding what i really meant. at least you got it. and Jack thank you for allowing me my freedom to disagree with some. that was quite fair of you;)
Your comment on March 12, 2012 at 12:50 pm questioned Heather’s compassion and understanding of prostitutes.
Do you honestly, truly think that pointing out what I see as inconsistencies, and asking for clarification, is attacking? And when she chose not to respond, letting her drop it without another word? Why no obsessive rant at xalisae for similarly “attacking” her?
Why do you think it’s unfair that I brought up the fact that every single time birth control comes up, you and xalisae have to go through the entire debate again? xalisae, if you think I brought you up unfairly, I apologize.
Personally I do not disagree that prostitutes should have access to birth control. I also think that non-prostitutes should have access to birth control.
First an observation – would a conservative get away comparing the situation of Ms. Fluke with a prostitute?
Probably not. They shouldn’t, in my opinion. No one should. What does that have to do with my question about people who categorically refuse to accept “birth control lowers the abortion rate!” as a debate tactic from college students, embrace it for prostitutes?
A second point – I never said Heather’s opinion was my opinion or that I supported it, I only understood her point and I thought you unfairly attacked her.
But do you not understand that it was never YOUR opinion that I was asking about? I asked heather about hers. She never answered and I never pressed her to. You then accused me of “attacking” her when 99.9% of my posts in this thread have been merely justifying my right to point out that laughing at someone and advocating for them measures you have expressly NOT supported for others in the past, is not compassion or understanding. Can we please stop this bull about “unfairly attacking.”
Alexandra are you going to do your part and go out and talk to the prostitutes? let me know how it goes.
I don’t know why you think you know what I have done in my life.
Moreover, regardless of my past, it is not always necessary to be the one going out and talking to those in pain, to have compassion and understanding for them. I didn’t go to New Orleans and help on the ground after Katrina hit, but I absolutely had compassion and respect for the people directly affected. Gerard Nadal talks a lot about the years that he worked with prostitutes in Times Square. He has far greater abilities, knowledge, and training than I do on that front. I support people like him and the group he worked with. They do not just put anyone on birth control or sterilize them, or laugh about how they’re hookers.
I did not say that you should go out and talk to a prostitute. I asked if you thought your previous posts were in line with your assertion that prostitutes need compassion and understanding.
“i said to put them on BC because its better than abortion and having crack addicted children”
^The epitome of anti-choice.
Thanks, Jack. I am so glad that you got your life together and are helping street kids.
People that argue for legalizing prostitution state that it will end child trafficking, but it doesn’t. Here are two articles about underage prostitutes in countries where prostitiution is legal, the Netherlands and Israel:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/aug/18/loverboy-child-prostitution-netherlands
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4020635,00.html
The Russian Mafia is heavily involved in prostitution in Israel as well, giving lie to the argument that legalization will stop organized crime from controlling it.
Alexandra, I out but I hope you remember not to assume that a person lacks compassion simply because they get frustrated or express their opinion with a different tone than you do. To me, civility and compassion can be two different things – President Obama taught me this.
Also, since you are such a fair-minded person can you please be sure to specify the type of birth control you support for all women and prostitutes. Moreover, can you please ensure that you always specify which birth control methods you support. The term birth control is vague – and some people beleive it includes abortion OCs, and condoms; other believe it includes only OCs, and condoms; other just believe it refers to just condoms; and on on….
For the record, you have proven that you should be held to a very high standard.
if we are not going to call prostitutes messde up then you have got to show equal tolerance to the men who pick them up. many of them had bad childhoods too. show them equal compassion too. be fair now.
thanks for the links phylimiss. prostitution is a growing problem. there isnt too much we can do.
hey alexandra i came back. are you gonna excuse the men who pick them up? this i gotta hear. they are victims too with sex addictions. some of these guys were sexual abuse victims also. do you call them creeps sickos and psychos?
” yeah Jack im well aware that some of these men and women who prostitute have had it bad…no doubt. so do you go out to the streets and try to talk to them? perhaps you do. i have spoken to a few too with compassion. they tell me pfft yeah right. you might be able to reach a few but there are so many of them. what is your solution?”
That’s kinda what I do, talk to these people. I volunteer at a shelter for homeless kids that helps them get off the street. We don’t make fun of them. Speaking to a couple of prostitutes really doesn’t give you a feel or understanding for what a lot of them go through, people can take a lot to open up, especially to people in a different social “class”. But you can believe what you want.
And IDGAF about the pervs who buy them, BTW. My compassion extends to people who don’t victimize others like the johns do. I have seen too many beaten up teenagers to give a crap about what the joehens childhoods were like.
Holy typos Batman.
jack im glad you do good works! i think thats great!;)
jack if the typo comment was directed at me im typing from a tiny phone
Lol, no Heather it was at myself. I am typing from a phone too.
oh okay. i didnt catch your typos
Speaking of, do liberals also want us to pay for prostitutes’ contraceptives?
Consistencty would demand a resounding yes!
If liberals believe we should provide money, food, housing, elective surgery, including gender re-assignment surgrey, for any who are ‘eligible’ then under their inclusive definition of ‘eligibility’ almost anyone would qualify.
Should we pay for liberal’s prostitutes?
I just want to clarify my response on March 13, 2012 at 1:53 am.
I orginally said
“Failing that, I would advise they protect themselves from all forms of STDs and ensure that they don’t get pregnant. So I don’t think Heather was saying that sterilization is the optimal situation but that it is a rational solution.”
I no longer think this is valid option for myself. Since contraception is such a moral evil, I would stick with points one and two. That the prostitute should find other work and should convert.
I also said:
“Finally, we can hold a pro-life woman who dearly loves her children and a prostitute to different standards, while admitting that both individuals share an ultimate standard that applies to both of them.”
I need to revise the above comment slightly so that it is clear that all individuals should be held to the same standard even though there are differences among individuals. I should not endorse a means (such as contraceptive) that I believe is morally wrong.
Thanks for asking the question Alexandra.
hey alexandra i came back. are you gonna excuse the men who pick them up? this i gotta hear. they are victims too with sex addictions. some of these guys were sexual abuse victims also. do you call them creeps sickos and psychos?
I don’t know why you think that there are only two options – calling these men “creep sickos and psychos,” or excusing them. I do not excuse them. I feel bad for a lot of them as I think they have some really terrible issues going on. I hope they get help and I wish I knew how to get that help to them. They are abusing themselves and they are abusing other people.
Alexandra, I out but I hope you remember not to assume that a person lacks compassion simply because they get frustrated or express their opinion with a different tone than you do. To me, civility and compassion can be two different things – President Obama taught me this.
I certainly think that people can express compassion in different ways. That is why I hold people to their words rather than their “tone.” That is why I ask questions.
Also, since you are such a fair-minded person can you please be sure to specify the type of birth control you support for all women and prostitutes. Moreover, can you please ensure that you always specify which birth control methods you support. The term birth control is vague – and some people beleive it includes abortion OCs, and condoms; other believe it includes only OCs, and condoms; other just believe it refers to just condoms; and on on….
I think that prostitutes and non-prostitutes alike should be able to choose their own forms of birth control. I do not use hormonal contraception and I strongly encourage other women to question it despite its ubiquity. I would gladly share my feelings and knowledge with any woman, prostitute or not, who was curious about them. I have done so many times – not with prostitutes, as I have never been approached in such a way by a prostitute, but at least with some extremely promiscuous friends of mine.
I do not really “support” any kinds of artificial birth control, but I don’t oppose them either. I do not oppose condoms, diaphragms, etc. I do not oppose hormonal contraceptives for the same reasons that xalisae does not. I oppose abortion.
For the record, you have proven that you should be held to a very high standard.
I honestly owe the best parts of myself to people holding me to high standards. I’m not infallible. I would have remained ignorant, hypocritical, incorrect in all the ways I once was, were it not for people calling me on my bull, insisting that I be intellectually honest, NEVER letting me get away with pretending that merely challenging me was “attacking” me. I played those games for some time. I am still fallible and still wrong about some things, I’m sure, but I hope with all my hope that there are people who will hold me to high enough standards that I may someday have no choice but to meet them.
Alexandra
for clarity’s sake what is your view on RU486, ella, etc..?
Also why would you want women to be able to choose artificial contraceptives, and OCs that cause breast cancer? OCs are also abortifacients – all though some in the medical community are trying to deny this. I know there are medical reasons for some women to use OCs but this is extremely rare and I am not thinking of them. I am just wondering what you think about oral contraceptive use for otheriwse healthy women?
Sterilization, in general, is not a life affirming activity. It is an enabler (not a 100% direct cause) of a behaviour that can be very irresponsible and lead to a disapportionate amount of unplanned pregnancies and ultimately more abortions. From a practicial perspective it even seems wise to warn and convince women that they should not to go down the path of contraceptive use. Were you only trying to make a legal vs moral distinction for your support of a women’s choice to use contraceptive? I don’t even feel comfortable making this legal/moral distinction.
It seems, to me, that women are really attached to these drugs, overly attached. I find it really disheartening that so many women want drugs like OC. I find this desire by women to have technological control over their reproduction to be a real turn-off. It all seems a little “control” oriented and a “power” grab. It turns my stomach. It actually makes me wonder what is going on in the heart of these women.
It sad to know women embrace the prochoice position. I share the same community with women who think it is okay to kill their own children. It totally grosses me out. It makes me feel I have entered bizzaro world.
xalisae, I think you can call me that religious nutcase if you would like although it will make me sad if you do. The reason you can is because I think I want to to say that I don’t think condoms and tubal ligation should be legal unless there is serious medical need. To get condoms or tubal ligations only promotes a lifestyle that can lead to unplanned pregnancies and irresponsible behaviour. It demeans the marital act, and weakens the marital relationship. Whether these reasons are sufficient to warrant making it illegal i don’t know, but then at least the law would be consistent with my morality and I wouldn’t have to suffer any cognitive dissonance – which seems to be what everyone wants.
Tyler, RU486 IS undisputably abortion. It goes without saying that I oppose that. I also oppose emergency contraception because my understanding is that one of its primary intended functions is to prevent implantation. I don’t think it does this very successfully, per some studies, but if that’s its goal then there you have it.
As I said, I do not oppose oral contraceptives for any of the seemingly millions of reasons xalisae has already discussed with you. I do think it’s a carcinogen. I think that cigarettes are, too. I think that people should be educated on, and discouraged from using, these products, but I do not think they should be illegal. When it comes to the potentially abortifacent properties of hormonal contraception, again, please revisit the many previous discussions you and xalisae have had. You are well within your rights to disagree but you cannot possibly claim not to understand the argument, by this point.
From a practicial perspective it even seems wise to warn and convince women that they should not to go down the path of contraceptive use.
I agree. Which is why I said that I thought women should be educated about contraceptives, as we all are educated about certain other products.
Were you only trying to make a legal vs moral distinction for your support of a women’s choice to use contraceptive? I don’t even feel comfortable making this legal/moral distinction.
I’m fine with you not being comfortable making that legal/moral distinction. I see no hypocrisy in it, even if I disagree. What I would find hypocrisy in is if you said that non-prostitutes should not be on birth control, but you’d gladly pay to sterilize all the prostitutes.
– the success or lack of success of abortifacients (not “emergency contraception” – there is no such thing) is not relevant to whether it is moral or not. The entire intent of RU486 and ella is to kill children;
– you should identify your reasons and not rely on xalisae’s. Why do you think people should be discourage from using these products while simultaneously not make these products illegal? Is this a consistent position?
– Smoking mothers are strongly advised to quit smoking; and Mothers who drink excessively can be charged with a crime in some countires. These contraceptives have one purpose to prevent pregnancy - do you honestly think they are going to stop having an affect on a Mother once the egg is fertilized? Please feel free to educate me on this topic of contraceptives because xalisae did not present arguments that show the “moral good” of contraceptives. xalisae referred to one website that argued it cannot be determined whether 2 of the 4 types of OCs are abortifacients. xalisae also told me her personal experience. xalisae did not address the fact that OCs contribute to more unplanned pregnancies and abortions.
– not once did I say that I would gladly pay to sterilize all or any prostitutes. If you remember that was your beef with Heather. I thought Heather’s comment was an expression of frustration – you thought her statement revealed that she lacked compassion – which I disagree with.
– the success or lack of success of abortifacients (not “emergency contraception” – there is no such thing) is not relevant to whether it is moral or not. The entire intent of RU486 and ella is to kill children;
Hm, that must be why I said, “I also oppose emergency contraception because my understanding is that one of its primary intended functions is to prevent implantation.” I think it’s also something of a scam because some studies suggest it’s not even successful, but that has nothing to do with whether I support it or not. It’s just kind of an added sucky thing about it. Like if a woman went in for an abortion and the doctor took her money and “performed” an abortion procedure, but didn’t tell her she was not actually pregnant and thus there was nothing to abort – I’d be glad that no child was killed but I’d still think he was scum. Him being scum wouldn’t be a reason for me to think he shouldn’t be allowed to perform abortions, as there are far stronger reasons I’m against abortion – it’s just another crummy part of the industry in general and his practice in particular.
– you should identify your reasons and not rely on xalisae’s. Why do you think people should be discourage from using these products while simultaneously not make these products illegal? Is this a consistent position?
Xalisae’s reasons are the same as mine. I am not ‘relying’ on anything. I have read long, arguments from you before and I have read xalisae’s responses and I have agreed with her. No offense Tyler, but I really see no point in getting into a 200-comment discussion that exactly mirrors the several you have already had with someone who feels exactly the same as I do on this issue. Yes, I consider my position consistent, as I have already said. I think that products whose primary, direct, concentrated harm comes to the user should not be illegal simply because they are harmful to the user. See: cigarettes. I don’t really think, for example, that people should get tickets for not wearing seatbelts. I think that anyone dumb enough to not wear a seatbelt should be welcome to risk his own life. I think people should be ENCOURAGED to wear seatbelts, and made aware of the risks of not wearing them, but I don’t think it’s the government’s job to penalize people for not caring enough about their own health. That said, supporting carelessness is certainly not a priority of mine, so I don’t lobby against seatbelt laws, just like I wouldn’t really lose much sleep if cigarettes – or carcinogenic contraceptives – were outlawed. But I do not actively think they should be illegal and I will not try to make them illegal.
– Smoking mothers are strongly advised to quit smoking; and Mothers who drink excessively can be charged with a crime in some countires. These contraceptives have one purpose to prevent pregnancy - do you honestly think they are going to stop having an affect on a Mother once the egg is fertilized? Please feel free to educate me on this topic of contraceptives because xalisae did not present arguments that show the “moral good” of contraceptives. xalisae referred to one website that argued it cannot be determined whether 2 of the 4 types of OCs are abortifacients. xalisae also told me her personal experience. xalisae did not address the fact that OCs contribute to more unplanned pregnancies and abortions.
You are all over the place in this paragraph. You ask if I really believe that contraceptives are not abortifacent and then say that xalisae linked you to studies on oral contraceptives not being provably abortifacent. Yes, those are the types of things I’m talking about which is why I keep telling you that I share xalisae’s opinions on this topic. I have not in any way argued that contraceptives are a “moral good” so it’s ridiculous for you to ask me to provide evidence that they are. I just don’t think that everything that is “not a moral good” should be illegal.
If for some reason you want anecdotal evidence from me as well as from xalisae, though I don’t know why you would, my mother was taking birth control pills when she conceived my younger sister, her third child. She didn’t realize she was pregnant and she took the pills throughout the first trimester and into the early second. My younger sister is in her mid-20s now and has always been healthy and developmentally normal, despite just over THREE MONTHS of daily hormone ingestion by my mother, to say nothing of the year of pills my mother had been taking prior to conceiving my younger sister. I also have at least a dozen friends who have children that they conceived while on the pill. I think that hormonal contraceptives probably prevent implantation about as frequently as other, more innocuous things do – things that, coincidentally, xalisae (and Jack, I believe) has previously brought up on this topic.
Honestly, I have nothing to hide intellectually, as my opinions are logically consistent and I am comfortable with them. So I will answer your questions but it is really, really tedious to go over something with you that you have already gone over with other people before.
Just saw that you added this –
– not once did I say that I would gladly pay to sterilize all or any prostitutes. If you remember that was your beef with Heather. I thought Heather’s comment was an expression of frustration – you thought her statement revealed that she lacked compassion – which I disagree with.
Yeah, and guess what? I do remember that I was talking to heather. Imagine that – I wasn’t talking to you and none of my reasons for being in this thread have anything to do with you, except that you claimed that me asking heather about her comments was an attack. When I said this,
“I’m fine with you not being comfortable making that legal/moral distinction. I see no hypocrisy in it, even if I disagree. What I would find hypocrisy in is if you said that non-prostitutes should not be on birth control, but you’d gladly pay to sterilize all the prostitutes.”
I meant…well, basically exactly what I said, but I will try to make it clearer. “I’m fine with you not being comfortable making that distinction. I see no hypocrisy in it, even if I disagree. (ie I was never saying that you were hypocritical) What I found hypocrisy in was heather’s comments, which I asked her about. As anyone in a discussion does. I have to say, Tyler, if you go back and read the questions I asked her, which you claimed several times were an attack – I would wonder what you consider this conversation you’re having with me.
Once again, the xalisae merely referred to one study – which really didn’t support her position very well – the study only said (tp paraphrase) “it can’t be determined whether 2 of 4 the 4 OC tested caused the embryo to abort. The other two OCs tested were abortifacients.
Also please address the impact contraceptions impact on behaviour and the increase in unplanned pregnancies and abortion. Smoking harms others in public tht is why there is push. Not wearing swim belts harms the people who care for those who don’t wear them. Avoidable and uneccessary deaths cost society money – from having to support families without insurance, etc.. I think you are looking at the issues too narrowly and not compassionately. Just because you make a sanrky comment doesn’t mean your argument isn’t trite. You are saying contraceptives are a “moral good” when you say that you would not make them illegal. At some level, you have to believe they are moral good in order for you to want them to remain legal. Your desire to keep contraceptives legal simply makes no sense otherwise.
Perhaps you recall more of xalisae’s argument than I do. I don’t recall Jack’s view on this topic at all, but I am not sure why Jack’s or even xalisae’s opinion matters. You can “ancedotal” evidence to yourself. However, your Mother’s pregnancy proves that Oral Contraceptives fail and contribute to unplanned pregnancies. However, the fact that women do get pregnant on OCs does not mean they are abortifacients. Usually pregnancies of this kind are the result of the person missing a dosage. Timing is everything. None of the other innocous things have as their primarcy the prevention of contraception. This intention cannot be removed from OCs and it makes a difference – that is why our laws distinguishes between manslaughter, self-defense, 1sy degree murder, etc.. To me the difference between drinking coffee and taking OC is the same playing game of Russian Roulette and drinking coffee. Drinking coffee is usually done for the enjoyment of coffee – there is no point to playing Russian Roulette.
It is fine that you think my view on contraception is tedious but I am sure some prochoice people would thing your fight to make abortion illegal tedious.
Alexandra, you took offense with Heather’s comment and I took offense with yours – see the similarity?
I took issue with this statement by you:
“How is lol’ing about them re: terminology, and saying they should be “put on birth control” and are “messed up in the head and irresponsible,” and saying you’d happily pay to have them “sterilized,” exhibiting compassion and understanding? ”
Heather never “lol’d”. Here you accused her of not exhibiting compassion. That is quite the accusation. Furthermore, this comment is not the comment that you qouted just recently in your March 17, 2012 at 8:13 pm post.
Alexandra accept responsibility for your comments just like you want Heather to do and we will be through. I think you owe Heather an apology for saying she was not exhibiting compassion simply because she didn’t share your view.
“At some level, you have to believe they are moral good in order for you to want them to remain legal. Your desire to keep contraceptives legal simply makes no sense otherwise.”
Tyler, seriously, enough with the either/or fallacies. Just because someone doesn’t think something should be illegal doesn’t mean they think it’s awesome and moral. I think promiscuity in general is a bad idea, I don’t want it illegal. I think eating meat is morally wrong, but I don’t want it illegal. Some of us don’t draw the legislation line at what we personally think is moral, so stop trying to misconstrue people’s arguments like that.
My views on contraceptives line up with xalisae’s, for the most part. Which I have argued with you about several times, I am surprised you don’t remember.
Jack I am not trying to misconstrue, I just want to understand the logic of saying something is immoral but legally acceptable.
Please feel free to remind me about your arguments in support of contraception. What benefits do contraceptives bring to society?
Jack, is being pro-contraceptive a policy position of secular pro-lifers?
Also, Alexandra and Jack, no one should be upset or offended by someone who thinks and wants oral contraceptives should be illegal. it is only an argument – one perspective.
“Jack I am not trying to misconstrue, I just want to understand the logic of saying something is immoral but legally acceptable. ”
Are you being disingenuous? You and I had an incredibly long conversation about social libertarian philosophy. Like, I explained this to you over and over again. Illegality is not the only means to discourage things that a specific person thinks is immoral. I think drugs are immoral (as far as I think anything is immoral, I tend to think of things as harmful, neutral, or beneficial rather than in terms of immorality) but I do not think that criminalizing drugs has done a lick of good for society, at least the way we have handled it. Can you not see why I can personally think that something is harmful/immoral, and think that the legal system is a poor way of regulating it?
”Please feel free to remind me about your arguments in support of contraception. What benefits do contraceptives bring to society?”
I don’t have the energy to type it all out again. I will say that I don’t think the scientific evidence supports oral contraceptives as an abortive medication, I don’t think that condemning contraceptives stops people from having sex and I think it’s more helpful for people who are going to be sexually active to at least try to avoid unwanted pregnancies in the non-abortive manner that they choose. I would rather not have more unwanted children to grow up like I did, and I don’t want to poke my nose into the sexual business of other adults.
”Jack, is being pro-contraceptive a policy position of secular pro-lifers?”
Policy decision? Whatever. A fairly easy philosophy to come by if you don’t have a religious objection to it? Sure.
“Also, Alexandra and Jack, no one should be upset or offended by someone who thinks and wants oral contraceptives should be illegal. it is only an argument – one perspective.”
Not offended, I just think you are wrong, and I am tired of the fallacies, and the insinuations that you make. Just because someone thinks that contraceptives should be legal doesn’t mean they encourage them or are all excited about them.
Oh for pity’s sake, Tyler.
If you want to see anything I think on the studies and the likelihood of OC’s being abortifacent, please reference ANYTHING xalisae or Jack or anyone else you have talked to and disagreed with has said. I do not think there is any reliable evidence that they have abortifacent properties greater than a variety of other behaviors or substances that do not draw the ire of the pro-life movement. Le voila.
Also please address the impact contraceptions impact on behaviour and the increase in unplanned pregnancies and abortion.
Yeah, kind of like how I asked about the “prostitutes should be on contraception because they will just abort if they get pregnant”/”college students who claim that they will just abort if they get pregnant should not be on contraception” dissonance? I think that a contraceptive mentality leads to increased abortion. One of many reasons I dislike contraception. That said, contraception does not lead directly to abortion, and many people who contracept – xalisae, my mother – do so with an openness to life should it bless them, the same as people using NFP to avoid pregnancy do.
Smoking harms others in public tht is why there is push. Not wearing swim belts harms the people who care for those who don’t wear them.
Yeah, and that’s why we try to get people to do the right thing. Lying hurts. Cheating hurts. Smoking hurts. People dying in car accidents hurts. People puking on us when they’re drunk…sucks. None of these things are illegal. It is not “narrow and without compassionate” to lovingly allow and encourage people to CHOOSE love, and life, and morality.
This intention cannot be removed from OCs and it makes a difference – that is why our laws distinguishes between manslaughter, self-defense, 1sy degree murder, etc.. To me the difference between drinking coffee and taking OC is the same playing game of Russian Roulette and drinking coffee.
Yes, and I absolutely recognize that it is the difference in intent that matters to you. The intent does not matter to me when it comes to establishing legality. Which is what…everyone else has already said.
You are saying contraceptives are a “moral good” when you say that you would not make them illegal. At some level, you have to believe they are moral good in order for you to want them to remain legal. Your desire to keep contraceptives legal simply makes no sense otherwise.
So do you think that every single thing that you do not think is a moral good should be illegal? I would love to draw up a long list for you and ask you for reasons why they are moral goods. I mean, in addition to all the things I already mentioned.
It is fine that you think my view on contraception is tedious but I am sure some prochoice people would thing your fight to make abortion illegal tedious.
No, Tyler, as I have said several times, I understand and respect your view on contraception. I merely disagree with it. I have never said that I am “offended” by your views, and in fact I have gone out of my way to say the exact opposite. I find your strange desire to rehash an argument other people have had with you on SEVERAL occasions, very tedious.
Alexandra, you took offense with Heather’s comment and I took offense with yours – see the similarity?
Yup. Notice how I never claimed you were attacking me, or without compassion, or out of line in any way? Get my point?
Heather never “lol’d”.
Yes, actually she did. She literally typed “lol” when talking about her use of the word prostitute and hooker over other terminology.
Alexandra accept responsibility for your comments just like you want Heather to do and we will be through. I think you owe Heather an apology for saying she was not exhibiting compassion simply because she didn’t share your view.
For the last time, I ASKED HEATHER IF her previous comments showed the compassion and understanding she claimed these people need. She did not respond. I never said she was not exhibiting compassion. It was my impression that she was not but I asked, so that she could explain if I was missing something. You came in claiming that I was attacking her, and now for some reason you want to have the same conversation you always do, with a different name attached. I’m not really sure why. I absolutely take responsibility for that comment and every other one made by me. I take responsibility for what I said but I will not take responsibility for the Rorschach test you’ve decided to use it as. Does that mean we’re through?
Jack if you are going to accuse me of fallacies you should at least specify what fallacies I am committing.
Making something illegal is not simply a way of regulating something – making something illegal is also a way for society to say that it thinks something is immoral. Sure making things illegal does regulate whatever is made illegal but there are, I agree, other better ways to convince people that contraceptives use is not effective, healthy, or beneficial. For one example, the government can start a massive advertising program to educate woman on the harms of contraceptives. Just because something is made illegal doesn’t mean the government isn’t required to convince the public of the merits of the new law.
Finally the sexual business of people pokes its nose in your business and society’s business when more unplanned (I don’t use “unwanted” as it is often less accurate) pregnancies happen as the result of the careless use of contraceptives, and treating sex like a recreational activity.
I apologize for not recalling our conversation Jack. It was probably early on in my discussions on this website.
Jack, also the sexual business activity does not only harm society but it also can harm an innocent life. If an unplanned pregnancy results from contraceptive use or from sex than the child can be put up for adoption. The fact that unplanned pregnancies occur or do not occur is not sufficient reason to justifiy an immoral activity and the use of harmful chemicals.
Alexandra I never said you lack compassion. You said Heather lacked compassion. Nice try to twist things around, and say that I said something about you I never have.
Heather lol’d about the erroneous conceptions of prostitutes and the erroneous understanding the public has of their life. Heather using the proper terminology for prostitutes is nothing to get all worked up about let alone to accues her of lacking compassion. She even mentioned that “she had cleaned them up” in the same passage where she decried the liberal spin/terminology being put on the exploitation of women, children, men, and the poor.
Alexandra you brought up the topic of contraception on March 13, 2012 at 12:38 am. You asked me my opinion on contraception and then later tried o claim your question was rhetorical. I never discussed contraception with xalisae on this thread. It has been a while since I discussed contraception with xalisae. I am amazed and worried about what kind of an impression it left on you.
Since you are getting upset and are now characterizing your comments differently and declaring that you never intended to accuse Heather of not being compassionate I acknowledge this as your attempt of an apologize to Heather, without actually apologizing. I know some people will never apologize, they will do everything but apologize.
I have been called Horsehack (usually because of my laugh and not my looks) but not Rorschach!
Just to be clear I had and have no desire to have a conversation with you about contraception.
Alexandra, just for future reference, and to avoid future discussions, are you a secular pro-lifer like Jack and xalisae?
Alexandra I never said you lack compassion. You said Heather lacked compassion. Nice try to twist things around, and say that I said something about you I never have.
For the last time, Tyler, I did not say that Heather lacked compassion. You, however, did say that I look at issues too narrowly and without compassion.
Heather lol’d about the erroneous conceptions of prostitutes and the erroneous understanding the public has of their life. Heather using the proper terminology for prostitutes is nothing to get all worked up about let alone to accues her of lacking compassion. She even mentioned that “she had cleaned them up” in the same passage where she decried the liberal spin/terminology being put on the exploitation of women, children, men, and the poor.
I certainly had a different interpretation of her comments, which is why I asked her to clarify.
Alexandra you brought up the topic of contraception on March 13, 2012 at 12:38 am. You asked me my opinion on contraception and then later tried o claim your question was rhetorical. I never discussed contraception with xalisae on this thread. It has been a while since I discussed contraception with xalisae. I am amazed and worried about what kind of an impression it left on you.
No, I did not ask your opinion on contraception, and I never claimed anything was rhetorical. I asked why you opposed contraception for some women – which I know, having read your previous arguments – but viewed it as potentially “compassionate” for prostitutes, a point you elaborated on and then later clarified and disagreed with, which is fine. I asked, you explained, you clarified – that’s how discussion works.
I am fully aware that you did not discuss contraception with xalisae in this thread. I said, when asked, that my views on it are the same as hers because I have seen you attempt to debate her on it endlessly and always agreed with her. It has not been “a while,” at least not in my mind, but then I’ve been commenting here for several years. Your discussions left little impression on me as they are not arguments I haven’t heard before and I did not find them persuasive enough to change my mind. The main impression I left with was what your opinions are, and that I agreed with xalisae’s. I’m sorry if that worries you and I am doubly sorry if that amazes you, because to my thinking that’s how conversations should be – appreciated and remembered.
Since you are getting upset and are now characterizing your comments differently and declaring that you never intended to accuse Heather of not being compassionate I acknowledge this as your attempt of an apologize to Heather, without actually apologizing. I know some people will never apologize, they will do everything but apologize.
Wow, how generous. Fortunately it’s not necessary, and I am not upset. I have no problem apologizing and I have apologized to people here before. I have nothing to apologize to Heather for, as I did not accuse her of not being compassionate and have said as much several times. Unless my question somehow hurt her feelings, and if that’s the case then I apologize for hurting her feelings, but I do not apologize for asking her to elaborate.
I did not call you Rorschach. I said that you are using my initial comment as a Rorschach test.
I am a secular pro-lifer. I share Jack’s opinions and xalisae’s opinions on some things but not on others. I am a bit confused as to why you repeatedly asked me to explain my views on contraception without referencing xalisae’s previous arguments, if you were not interested in having a conversation on contraception with me.
Alexandra, I do need to address one additional point you made regarding contraception. You argued that people, like xalisae and your Mother, can remain open to life while using contraception. I used to think this was a fair position because of its surface factuality (ie your Mother and xalisae did not abort their children). However, if one examines the situation more closely one notices that a person who uses contraception is not open to life at the time of intercourse (indeed this is the very reason they used contraception in the first place – even if there was medical reasons a person who really wanted children would get off contraceptive pills.) At the time of detection of pregnancy or a shorttime afterwards the person then becomes open to life. It is this required duplicity when using contraceptives that is part of the problem. It changes the meaning of intercourse from one about love and life to one about self-gratification and exercise. It also has the potential to mislead partners. The partner of a woman who uses contraceptives may not want children, and may only nominally agree to be open to any new life that results due to sexual intercourse based on his faulty reliance on the contraceptives ability to prevent pregnancy. It turns the sexual act which could be a moment of self-giving and trust into a act full of risk, mistrust, and latent anxiety about life.
Why would I reference my conversations with xalisae when I am talking with you?
Alexandra, I apologize if I appeared to agree (or if I did agree through silence) with xalisae’s position on contraception. I should have been more clear. I was ill prepared to deal with some of xalisae’s arguments and (being susceptible to them in the past) I did not sufficiently oppose them. Specifically I regret accepting the idea that one can be on oral contraceptives and open to life at the same time. I found it difficult to argue against her anecdotal evidence.
Tyler, I never said you appeared to agree with xalisae’s opinions on contraception. I’m not sure why you think that. I’m also not sure what you mean by this:
Why would I reference my conversations with xalisae when I am talking with you?
You didn’t, and you would have no reason to unless I asked you to. Which I did.
I am not discussing with you whether it’s possible to be open to life while using contraception, especially if you dismiss evidence of people who ARE open to life while on contraception.