Abortionist announces he’s quitting the biz
UPDATE 5/21, 9:40a: Pro-life activist John Barros (via Jay Rogers on Facebook) is reporting Scott Spagnolo-Hye has not been seen at the abortion mill since Barros videotaped him announcing he was leaving the industry as of June 2. Barros reported a worker has told him Spagnolo-Hye has quit, and “they are now having to shuffle schedules and will not be open on Sundays for the foreseeable future.” Those praying for Spagnolo-Hye’s immediate departure from the abortion industry may have had their prayers answered.
5/9, 2:29p: Pro-lifers have interesting relationships with abortionists and abortion mill staff.
On one hand pro-lifers must condemn their work and use all legal tools necessary – such as picketing homes, as in the picture, right – to try to persuade not only a change of occupation but also a change of heart, for the sake of their souls.
On the other hand pro-lifers try to reach out to abortion workers on a personal level to let them know they are there for them should they decide to leave the trade, and are praying for them as well.
So, while relationships between the two sides may be understandably strained, I just as often hear almost unimaginable stories, except by the grace of God, of relationships built – of the pro-lifer going for coffee with the abortionist, etc.
Abby Johnson is an example of an abortion clinic worker whose first thought was to go to the very people who had been picketing her Planned Parenthood for years when she decided to make her escape. And during this spring’s 40 Days for Life prayer campaign, eight workers quit, for a total of 69 over the last 10 campaigns since 2007.
This brings us to yesterday, when Florida abortionist Scott Spagnolo-Hye announced on camera to the pro-life world that as of June 2 he is quitting the baby-killing business…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzTW2CpF0WU[/youtube]
Spagnolo-Hye aborts at four clinics. Pro-lifers have picketed his home on more than one occasion, for instance, in July 2011…
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT8OCiHiAQ8[/youtube]
Because of all this you’d think Spagnolo-Hye would hate pro-lifers. But he doesn’t. The ecstatic pro-lifer who filmed Scott’s announcement wrote on YouTube:
I have been speaking to Scott for about two years… I have prayed with him shared God’s word with him, stood in front of his house and have continued to pray for and talk to him… He said he hated this but after so long you just wonder… Well he has Quit and is going to meet with me to discuss where he stands with God and Repentance….
It’s a strange world Christians must navigate, isn’t it? Let’s all pray for Spagnolo-Hye, that he indeed leaves the terrible world he’s a part of and turns to God. He certainly seemed happy in the video with his decision.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Good news. Let’s hope for many more!!!
I’m so glad he decided to leave the business! Another victory for pro-lifers :)
On another note, I have never agreed with picketing outside of a person’s home. It’s one thing to protest or pray outside of an abortion clinic (I have done this), but it’s another thing entirely to visit their private property and bother their families–even their children. What if pro-choicers and radical feminists decided to protest and picket outside of pro-lifers’ homes?
Why keep killing till June 2? Quit now Scott!
I love it! I’d like to see more of this!
I commend this man for his change of heart, but why wait until June 2? I have no problem with protesters picketing clinics, but it bothers me to hear that they also picket homes. I know if I lived in the neighborhood with someone who was picketed, I’d be a bit ticked off with all the ruckus.
Do we know what spurred his change of heart?
That’s my friend & hero John Barros you hear speaking to the abortionist on the video. He is outside of that clinic EVERY day and has saved hundreds of babies. Thank you for sharing this Jill!
Thank you Lord!!
Praying them ALL OUT!!
A mass exodus!
I just cried reading this.
PRAISE JESUS!!!
(Not for the crying)
How many babies will be killed between now and June 2nd? I wish he would quite right now. Why wait? Perhaps its something contractual that binds him until June 2nd, but I pray that he will at least refuse to perform abortions even if he must continue employment until June 2nd. May God be with him and all those who surround him during this transition.
But is it ( his sudden “conversion”) really for REAL? I certainly hope so, not only for HIS sake, but the babies he will no longer kill and the women he will no longer hurt.
Perhaps there are some things I am too synical about but, as others have mentioned, if he’s had a change of heart why wait til June 2nd? I mean, come on, would you wake up one day and realize that your *job* is to kill people but, oh well, I’ll finish out a few more weeks? This smacks of opertunistic, like he’s changing jobs or being bought out of his practice for a non-ethics related reason and using it as a white flag before the picketers ‘see, you can go know I’m stopping’.
“What if pro-choicers and radical feminists decided to protest and picket outside of pro-lifers’ homes?”
In many ways, witnessing to the truth is much easier when people go out of their way to pay and/or draw attention to you, so I say bring it on. Besides, pro-aborts and wrong-way feminists tend to illustrate their error in person far better than I could describe in words or anecdotes (especially concerning the parts that should be pure hyperbole), making the proper education and warning of children much simpler.
In my opinion, that goes at least double for our churches. Further still, I would welcome them to be that close to His house for extended periods of time, since I know the effect it would have on many of them.
Even putting all that aside, in my experience, nothing drives people to decide and establish what they believe in better than being challenged in that stance. If they want to galvanize pro-lifers, it’s their ideological funeral.
glad to see one more soul taking things seriously. Let’s pray for this man and his family. I hope to see a 180 like Abby – a real hero in the pro-life business. It’s never too late to realize that one has championed sin, and turn back to doing good. Like Saul to Paul – all things are possible. We wish him Godspeed.
Awesome. I thought of Paul right away too, my favorite person in the Bible, aside from Jesus of course, for what God tells us through his life about forgiveness and second chances to do His work. Our God is so amazing. As others have pointed out, however, it would have been pretty suspect if Paul said “ok, God, but let me just persecute a few more Christians first.” Hmmm. Still good news, but a little confusing. (Abby Johnson almost literally fled PP … Is he waiting to collect some benefits or something?)
Congratulations to Dr. Hye. God bless!! I will continue to pray for the conversion of hearts and minds of all abortion workers and supporters. Praise God for prayers answered!
Praise the LORD!
I’m glad but my thought was also – June 2? Man up and stop NOW.
Not to worry. I’ll end up performing more as a result. Just like when a clinic closes–we get the overflow.
* TROLL ALERT* /\
:) Good catch, Pamela! (Don’t feed him, y’all! Goodness, but they’re breeding quickly, this spring…)
No change of heart here or Scott Spagnolo-Hye would have already quit. If God takes his life before June 2nd it wouldn’t be too soon.
Gee, SharonG, you’re really a “prolifer” aren’t you? But, most of you are like hypocrites.
Mickey, have you not read of Ananias and Sapphira? Acts 5:4-5 “…You have not lied just to human beings but to God. When Ananias heard this, he fell down and died. And great fear seized all who heard what had happened.”
Mickey,
However most pro-lifers do not share these feelings and am glad he’s quiting and wish him the best in his career change. Care to elaberate on the whole “hypocrits” deal or are you just trolling for attention?
Rachael, so the babies Scott Spagnolo-Hye slaughters before he retires this June don’t count?
Just saw the video. Family practice, eh? Baby killer to baby healer? Not likely. Btw, is he homosexual? Sounded like it.
SharonG says:
No change of heart here or Scott Spagnolo-Hye would have already quit. If God takes his life before June 2nd it wouldn’t be too soon.
You doubt that this abortionist has had a true conversion and yet you seem to be wishing for his quick death. Why?
“This is good and pleasing to God our savior,who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.” 1 Tim 2:3-4
The Lord does not delay his promise, as some regard “delay,” but he is patient with you, not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” 2 Peter 3:9
Lrning, because he is murdering the innocent. Simple enough?
I also noticed in the video Scott Spagnolo-Hye wasn’t too keen on the idea of repentance.
Sharon, I understand your frustration… but we cannot forget ourselves, even in our just anger (i.e. we cannot allow our just anger to turn to unjust wrath and to lead us into sin). Even from a secular point of view, it makes no sense for us to adopt the “meta-beliefs” of our enemies (i.e. human life is disposable at our whim, and it is only worthy of life if we give our consent)… but for Christians, it is utterly out of the question.
By all means: we must hate what Mr. Spagnolo-Hye is doing, and we must fight to stop that evil from happening; but we are not morally free to pick up the toys of the devil in order to try to do God’s Will. It won’t work, for one (evil tools always harm both the user and the intended recipient of defense, ultimately–think of Tolkien’s fictitious “Lord of the Rings” Trilogy for a vivid [though fictitious] example)… and it is sinful, for another. We may never choose any evil (such as desiring the death of someone), no matter what the potential “good payoff”. Certainly, we must desire that he stop killing children; but we cannot desire that the means of doing so involves his death/torture/harm/etc. Does that clarify?
SharonG says:
Lrning, because he is murdering the innocent. Simple enough?
Simple? Yes. Christian? No. Pray for his repentance, not his death.
I find the Bible a great resource to understand justice and mercy, and the proper place for both.
Romans 13:4
4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
“Whoever sheds man’s blood by man shall his blood be shed” Genesis 9:6
“If you’ll you would slay the wicked, oh God! Depart from me therefore you bloodthirsty men…I hate them with a perfect hatred, I count them my enemies” Pslams 139: 19, 22 (the same pslams which declares we are “fearfully and wonderfuly made” and God knows us before we are born.
“And they cried with a loud voice saying, ‘How long, oh Lord, holy and true, until you avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'” Revelations 6:10
It’s not unchristian to recognize, even wish for, the ungodly to meet their judgement. Wishing that God’s judgement might be visited *now* upon a murderer is not unchristian, and, frankly, in no way contradicts with a heartfelt want to see the sinner saved out of his sin. It is right and just to want such bloodshed punished, and there isn’t anything unjust about hoping someone meets such punishment before he can take even one more innocent life. But the Lord also says wait, terry, abide. The expression of such a completely normal and justified response to evil isn’t remotely unchristian, as long as it is tempered by the equally heartfelt desire that, if salvation is possible for such a one (and only God knows that so as far as we know salvation is *always* possible) that the Lord stay His hand until the sinner can be redeemed.
This man has stated he will continue another month! There isn’t anything ethically or morally wrong in hoping God stays his hand before another innocent is killed, either by calling him to true repentance if that is possible or by calling him to true judgement if it is not. Remember that God is a God of Truth and Justice just as much as of Mercy and Love, if you refuse to meet His mercy you will meet his justice, and it’s equally valid for our hearts to cry out for God’s justice as for His mercy.
No, it is not wrong to wish justice done… and it will be done, in due time. But when we go further, and presume to think that “justice = person [x] dies and/or burns in hell”, that is sinful, and we should never desire that. God desires that all men be saved (1 Timothy 2:4), and God does not rejoice with the death of the wicked:
Say to them, As I live, says the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 33:11)
If we wish that “justice be done”, we wish something good. But when we wish harm on someone else, under the guise of “wishing that justice be done to them” (and we thereby assume that “justice = their death”, which is staggeringly presumptuous!), we not only do wrong… but we sin. It is not moral relativism which restrains us from wishing that “justice be done to everyone [according to our personal tastes], and that everyone gets what they deserve”; it is mere sanity (to say nothing of trust in God’s Word) that keeps us from wishing such doom upon our heads. I, myself, know that I’ve done many things which could cause someone else to pray such imprecatory curses on ME (i.e. “Lord, let him feel your vengeance, for the harm he has done to me!”), and I know of no honest Christian who can say otherwise.
No… we are not free to wish evil on another person. We are to pray that God’s Will be done, and we are to do everything within our power (and within the bounds of the moral law) to fight evil. But we cannot confuse the sinner with the sin; God has not left that “option” open to us… and praise be to God, for that!
The frequent charge of “hypocrisy” is often made by those who have replaced all other sins with their one and true sin – hypocrisy. Note that if you believe hypocrisy is the only sin, and if you hold yourself to no standards outside of the laws of man precisely because hypocrisy is the only sin, then it is not possible for you to commit that sin.
Or to put it more simply, if you have no standards then it is impossible for you to be a hypocrite. Therefore you cannot be a sinner and you don’t need Jesus or forgiveness. Convenient, isn’t it?
Perhaps there are some things I am too synical about but, as others have mentioned, if he’s had a change of heart why wait til June 2nd? I mean, come on, would you wake up one day and realize that your *job* is to kill people but, oh well, I’ll finish out a few more weeks?
I too am suspicious. Why wait three weeks? Something is not kosher here.
How do we know he’s still going to be doing abortions until his quit date? That’s quite judgemental of us. For all we know he could be packing up his office, doing follow up appointments and other non-abortion related work.
Because, Jeanette, Scott didn’t say differently. We, therefore, legitimately assume it’s business as usual. Being Christian doesn’t mean I have to check my brains at the door, so to speak.
“This brings us to yesterday, when Florida abortionist Scott Spagnolo-Hye announced on camera to the pro-life world that as of June 2 he is quitting the baby-killing business…” Think he would have said I am done doing abortions if he were done doing abortions.
SharonG is a troll playing pretend to make us look bad. Cute, but it’s been done before, sweetheart.
Now, Roger…
Not to worry. I’ll end up performing more as a result. Just like when a clinic closes–we get the overflow.
SoMG, did they let you out already? How ya been, buddy! I missed you! I always liked you better than Hal and Doug. At least you were honest, and not condescending. <3
These people sicken me so dearly. I mean it was our culture that people can copulate then kill their own babies and it was all fine and dandy by their standards.
How is it ok to kill a baby? Logically, it is not.
Abortionists can have their beliefs all they want, but if they act out on them, justice demands!
~~** Alyssa Cumella **~~
Justice demands that they get punished to the fullest extent of the law. I am against the death penalty. While in jail, turn away from their evil deeds and have a change of heart.
This is how we turn America Pro Life.
People need to have a CHANGE OF HEART.
Who’s with me?
~~** Alyssa Cumella **~~
No trolling here, xalisae. Maybe it’s been awhile since you have heard from an authentic Christian.
“Maybe it’s been awhile since you have heard from an authentic Christian.”
I and several others post here from time to time, Sharon, so no, it has not been awhile.
True Christians do not pray for the death of anyone, but rather for the redemption and salvation of all.
I pray that, if Spagnolo-Hye’s conversion is not complete, the Holy Spirit would work further in his heart to bring him back to the truth and life he was meant for.
If his conversion is complete yet he stays out of sheer ignorance (doubtful but possible), I pray for his eyes to be opened.
If he stays out of fear, I pray that he would receive the courage he needs to abandon this vile practice.
If he stays in order to help others see the truth and leave with or before him, then I pray for that the Holy Spirit would work through him to touch the hearts and open the eyes of everyone else working there, hopefully to the point of completely emptying the building (never doubt that God can do that).
And, of course, if he simply lied about changing his ways, I pray the same thing I pray for all abortionists; that he would see the evil of his ways, repent of his wrongdoing, seek, receive, and accept forgiveness, and join with us as we seek to end this slaughter.
Enough people have died over this, Sharon. I do not wish for any more to be added to that, not even those of the abortionists themselves.
Since you seem either to be a troll, or to be a “Christian” in the tradition of Westboro Baptist “Church”, I (for one) would rather err on the side of generosity with Xalisae, and categorise you as a troll, Sharon. Do come to your senses, will you?
(By the way… at the risk of making an awful pun: bravo, Maestro!)
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Sharon: (?) All right. What, exactly, is the relevance of that to this particular point? Or are you simply indulging in the popular sport known as “Bible Bingo”? To wit:
And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, beware lest you be carried away with the error of lawless men and lose your own stability. (2 Peter 3:15-17)
Words are very powerful, so even if we internally believe that someone is wasting oxygen, it would be prudent to keep that opinion to ourselves.
However, this man shows a great deal of promise, if he means it and follows through. In fact, the silver lining to the tragedy of committing abortions for weeks after one decides to stop, is that the abortionist will be faced with the undeniable violence and unfairness of the act. (Like Bernard Nathanson)
Steeling yourself and repressing your natural emotions is a coping mechanism if you are going to keep going back to inflict the violence on the the small human being. After June, once he no longer needs to steel his resolve, who knows what? He may experience a fuller conversion, and, God willin’, join the team, Team Life!!
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.”
Very true; God is no one’s fool.
Case in point:
Isaiah 55:9 “”For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.”
Who are we to presume to know what God’s will is for any one person?
Scott may indeed be a very honorable man, though obviously disastrously ill-informed, or he may be positively dripping with evil and just playing us.
I don’t know.
Neither do you.
Either way, he is not beyond the reach of the Holy Spirit and is thus not beyond redemption. So long as he lives, this remains true.
We cannot know God’s will for Scott, anymore than I can know His will for you or you can know His will for me (granted, there are cases when this is untrue, but those are the exception, not the norm). We have no place wishing for his death, but rather we have a DUTY – not merely an option or suggestion, but a duty – to pray for his deliverance from this evil so that, when the time of his judgement comes, the Lord of all love and mercy would not have to watch as one of His beloved creations is cast into the eternal fires of Hell.
Is that not why you pray, Sharon? Are not the Lord’s happiness and sorrow the entire reason for your hopes and dreams, for yourself and for others?
Recall that, when asked, Jesus pointed out in Matthew 22:37 that the most important commandment was not “thou shall not kill,” but rather that we love God above all else, with all our heart, soul, and mind. Second? Love your neighbour as yourself.
Wishing for the death of your neighbour is not loving, Sharon, and is therefore incompatible with the will of our Father in Heaven.
Pray that God’s will be done in Scott’s life, and leave the direction to God; He knows what He’s doing, more than any of us could ever hope to.
Paladin:
“(By the way… at the risk of making an awful pun: bravo, Maestro!)”
At risk of obliterating any semblance of intelligence which I may have been considered to have here, I must confess: I don’t get the pun.
Still, I am grateful to be of service, Paladin. Thank you muchly.
…suddenly…feeling zealot mode creeping up again…
…maybe next time. :-)
Maestro writes: ”Wishing for the death of your neighbour is not loving, Sharon, and is therefore incompatible with the will of our Father in Heaven.”
I agree. The preborn are my neighbors and the killing must stop. What, then, is God’s will for my neighbor’s enemy?
Luke 17:2
“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”
Btw, Paladin, BINGO!!!
Yes. It would be better for him to have THAT happen to him than what God has in store. Not SharonG. You are not the boss, SharonG.
Matt 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
(Just because I’m not religious doesn’t mean I don’t know this stuff.)
“I agree. The preborn are my neighbors and the killing must stop. What, then, is God’s will for my neighbor’s enemy?”
Sharon, you have clearly stated that you wish for Scott’s death. Therefore, you do not agree.
Luke 6:27 “Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you.”
Scott is effectively your neighbour as well. Granted, not a very good neighbour (so far as we know), but a neighbour nonetheless.
As for God’s will for him, of course I don’t know, just as you don’t. Maybe God does will for him to die, in which case I hope it happens. Otherwise, I hope he lives. The important thing is that God’s will be done, not justice served according to our limited perspective.
Luke 15:7 “I say to you, that even so there shall be joy in heaven upon one sinner that doth penance, more than upon ninety-nine just who need not penance.”
Just look at St. Paul, who hunted down and murdered the early Christians until God Himself knocked him off his high horse, literally. Like Saul, Scott has murdered many people, but equally like St. Paul, Scott can be brought back into full communion with God.
“It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.”
Very true. When I look on my sinfulness, a part of me would rather have died than done those things. Had I not the faith to trust that I can yet be redeemed, I would have killed myself years ago than continue along. Thankfully, to temper such a compulsion, I have been blessed with the knowledge that God has a plan for me and that I am not lost (also, I knew that even my life was sacred and worth defending, even if from myself).
The sinfulness of another, even committed in crimes against children, does not give us license to hang said millstone around his neck or cast him into the sea, nor is it our place to decree that it should be done. God alone knows people’s hearts, and therefore God alone is in any position to determine who should live and who should die.
It reminds me of a possible situation that I had to come to terms with year ago: if you got to Heaven and found that Hitler and Stalin are both there, would you be disappointed or overjoyed?
xalisae says: Yes. It would be better for him to have THAT happen to him than what God has in store. Not SharonG. You are not the boss, SharonG.
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;(Just because I’m not religious doesn’t mean I don’t know this stuff.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Xalisae,
It is hard for you to understand Scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit. Scott Spagnolo-Hye is not my enemy, so your Bible reference from Matthew does not apply here. It’s late, go to bed, it’s way past your bedtime. I am the boss ;-)
Maestro,
You judge me amiss. I would be overjoyed if Scott Spagnolo-Hye repented and became a Christian. But, as long as he is murdering children, if God took him from this earth, I wouldn’t shed a tear.
I didn’t judge you Sharon, I simply asked a question and presented the options from both ends of the spectrum. Had I instead insisted on knowing which you would choose before getting your input on the matter, you might have a case for this.
“I would be overjoyed if Scott Spagnolo-Hye repented and became a Christian.”
That’s not what I asked you, but I can bring it closer to home with a situation that hopefully never comes to pass.
Suppose that Scott is in the middle of performing an abortion, and the room he’s in has a large window through which you can see him and what he’s doing. You see him deliver a child who was only a few days shy of being born naturally, but then he immediately drowns the child in a large plastic bag filled with water. Suddenly, you hear a gunshot and the wall on the other side of Scott is suddenly painted with his blood. He drops to the floor, dead.
As you approach the Lord on your day of judgement, you see Scott in Heaven.
Knowing that Scott had no conversion and made no repentance during his allotted time here on Earth, would you be happy all the same?
Conversely, if you saw him in Hell, would that make you sad?
I definitely agree with you that Scott’s death may be God’s will, and thus would be the best course of action, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be a tragedy. A man would still have died, possibly in a state in which entry into Heaven was impossible, and God would have lost one of His creations to Hell forever.
If that doesn’t give you cause for sadness, then you have completely missed the entire point of the Christian faith.
***
Xalisae, you may rest assured; a number of very intelligent and thought-provoking comments about my faith have come from those who don’t share it or any faith, usually to very amusing effect (generally at the expense of those who claim the faith but have compromised it for various reasons). You can also be certain that no true Christian wishes for the death of another. If I ever make that mistake, I hope I can count on you (and any others here) to call me on it.
Maestro wrote: “As you approach the Lord on your day of judgement, you see Scott in Heaven. Knowing that Scott had no conversion and made no repentance during his allotted time here on Earth, would you be happy all the same?”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That scenario would be impossible according to the true Gospel. You have been corrupted by a false gospel. Perhaps the one that says you and others can pay for your sins after death in purgatory. You might want to consider these Bible verses in an attempt to rescue yourself from foolish imaginations:
Hebrews 9:27 “…as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment…”
Destructive Doctrines
II Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction. 2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed. 3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
By our understanding, it would indeed be pretty much impossible (though I’ve learned not to underestimate the possibility of mitigating factors). But that’s just it; according to OUR understanding, which as you know is infinitely lesser than God’s.
Even putting your anti-Catholicism aside, though, you do yourself no credit by intentionally avoiding the question with attempts to portray me as believing the scenario I presented.
An answer to the question would be appreciated. Otherwise, I (and probably most others here) have practically no reason to believe that you would not be disappointed to see Scott in Heaven and happy to see him in Hell.
And thus, we have practically no reason to believe that you’re Christian, but rather that you’re of the Church of Sharon, well on your way to Westboro’s level.
I did this:
Proverbs 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.
I’ll end with this:
Proverbs 26:4 Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.
Xalisae,
It is hard for you to understand Scripture without the help of the Holy Spirit. Scott Spagnolo-Hye is not my enemy, so your Bible reference from Matthew does not apply here. It’s late, go to bed, it’s way past your bedtime. I am the boss.
That’s what I never understood about some “Christians”. If you guys really believed this stuff, I’d think you’d go out of your way not to do bad things like, exalt yourself over God. But hey, to each his/her own. You believe in The Lake Of Fire, so you must know what you’re doing.
Proverbs 26:4 “Do not answer a fool according to his folly, Lest you also be like him.”
Imagine that; I fully expected that this would have to be my next post, especially seeing as you still refuse to answer a very simple question.
There you have it, folks; SharonG is not only not terribly Christian, she isn’t really pro-life (what with wishing for the death of someone).
I’ll not wade into the debate over whether or not she’s genuinely that confused or simply a troll; frankly, I’ve done what I can to aid in either situation and it’s now in God’s hands.
***
Don’t take it too personally, Lady Xalisae. It is an unfortunate trend that the insistence on interpreting God’s Word to suit one’s own preferences leads to good people producing bad fruits; in this case, condescension.
…having said that, now I’m unusually curious; would you say I fit that description? Don’t be shy. :-P
I’m sorry…but…what do you mean by “fit that description”? I apologize for any misunderstanding. It’s been a long day. @_@
Not a problem, Lady Xalisae. No apologies are necessary (though if you insist, I gladly accept yours) and I can certainly clarify.
I was commenting on how, when people interpret God’s Word to suit their own preferences instead of seeking out the truth despite them, one result that’s all too common is condescension toward those who have differing views, especially those who don’t profess any Christian faith.
So when I asked if you thought that I fit that description, I was asking if, in your opinion, I tend to be condescending or otherwise high-and-mighty about my faith … or about pro-life in general, for that matter.
(while we’re at it, I’m reminded of our “chat” about contraception a while back)
To hopefully ease any discomfort you may have with answering that question (which I doubt, but just in case), I’ll be right up front; I know that tact is not my forte and I’ll not pretend otherwise, and while I try to respect the views of others (even when I think they’re two loose threads short of a straitjacket), I’m not always particularly successful in that effort. I do recognize that there’s a line between disagreeing with someone and belittling that person; I just don’t know how good I am at finding it.
So ultimately, while I know that I annoy quite a few people here (some more thoroughly than others), I’m wondering if you think I’m still being at least moderately civil about it.
I can’t change the message … but I’m open to input on the delivery.
One word of advice. “Don’t be shy” should be said to x only when in full armor. :)
*sigh*
Hans, that better not have been directed at me! If it was, you disappoint me!
First, you should know that I ALWAYS have my armor on! ;-)
Second, I’m after the truth, not a morale boost! For the most part, pussy-footin’s for pansies who can’t handle the facts! :-P
And third, really, why should I be afraid of Lady Xalisae? If what she says is true, then any consequent pain or discomfort I may feel is my own fault! If she lies through her digital teeth … well, she’s not the only one around here with teeth! Gotta man up, Hans! :-D
So let’s have it, Lady Xalisae (or anyone else who feels compelled to answer); content aside, do you think I come across as a nasal-gazer?
Aye, Maestro. But this windmill does have teeth! :) Even the crickets are nervously silent! :)
Not at all, Maestro.
I appreciate the concern, Hans, but I’m sure to go easy on Maestro, here, since he’s relatively new. ;P
There is one important factor that separates you from SharonG: Humility.
You have it.
She doesn’t.
It is an ESSENTIAL virtue.
and, I know I’m way out of line to be contributing such a commentary, but I like to think that despite my departure from religion, my parents raised me to be able to recognize what is right, noble, good, and just. Humility is so very, VERY important. And, I know I lack that quality myself sometimes, but I try to have it whenever possible (I submit for evidence the recent thread with heather, Jack, and myself as evidence-I admitted I had been wrong about something in the past and adapted my view as a result) and it is a natural, intrinsic good.
Yes indeed, the all-important humility. Really, when you break it down, it’s just a particular form of honesty; specifically, honestly about oneself, both good and bad.
It reminds me of a very important concept that we Catholics are taught; God’s mercy is not just for those who profess our faith. He knows our hearts, so He knows how genuinely and honestly we seek the truth and apply it to our lives and thus how well and properly we truly live. In other words, we fully expect that many non-Catholics will live in Heaven, while many who claim our faith will not (the shame and sorrow of eternal CINOhood).
Obviously, I believe you’re very mistaken about some crucial aspects of our lives (and I’ve got a sneaking suspicion that the feeling is extraordinarily mutual), but I don’t know you nearly well enough to render any kind of judgement on your motives. I guess it helps to be on the receiving end of such judgement on a regular basis; I’m more conscious of how easily I could perpetuate it.
Besides, it’s not too uncommon among Catholics that whenever we do a good deed, we’ll joke about how “it oughta get me out of at least a few years/days/seconds of Purgatory!” Our universal need for God’s mercy is so central to our faith that, among the faithful, there is little room for arrogance in terms of piety (and those who try it generally make themselves look exceptionally foolish and amusing).
I’m very thankful that I apparently haven’t forgotten that here in this pit of heretical filth and heathenistic indulgen-oh wait, did I type that out loud? :-O
Sorry, I just couldn’t help myself! XD
…you know that was a joke, right? ;-)
Anyway…
I would hardly consider you out of line for offering a commentary; this is a public forum, not a devoted-followers-of-Jesus-only chat room. Also, you don’t have to have been a monk or cloistered sister for forty years to understand a lot of the simpler aspects of our faith. By all means, Lady Xalisae, feel free to highlight anything you see as inconsistent or strange, whether in my comments or those of others; any worldview or code of conduct that collapses under scrutiny deserves such a fate.
Now I’m curious again (always with the questions, this one): just how long has SharonG been here, demonstrating the dangers of placing too much trust in “personal revelation”?
And finally, are you going to post the second part of your response? You know, the one that starts with “But…” :-P
P.S.: “he’s relatively new”: what exactly is required before I get my black belt in the ancient art of Jillonian commenting?
Sancho Panza here is relieved. So far, so good.
I don’t know her, Maestro. I’ve seen her I think once before, and in a similar fashion to the one she showed up in here, but I stand by my earlier assessment that she is a decoy, imposter, and a poseur.
There is no “but” with which to address you, good sir. I was/am completely sincere with my first post differentiating you from Sister Holiest of Holies. I stand by my word. Sometimes something as simple as humility can make all the difference. I think I was initially drawn to this thread simply for the irony though. It’s like a dinner bell when it’s that thick. “Wait…someone’s making offhand remarks about someone dying…on a Pro-Life blog? I am sooo there.”
You’ll have your belt presented as soon as Hans gives you your instruction in dealing with wild x’s. They’re pretty capable critters, full of teeth and claws. There’s just this one spot behind the left ear you have to know how to scratch just right, and they’ll love you forever. A few commenters here know that spot quite well, Hans being one. ;P
“Wild xes couldn’t keep me away…”
Durn. How do you type musical notes? d ?
Close enough, Hans. I guess that would be a half note. :/
OH, my goodness. I hardly ever post here, but SharonG is just hateful unfortunately. Can you imagine her (if she isn’t a troll) going before God:
“God, it is I who is the judge. Moreover, even though you said that you would leave 99 sheep for 1 lost one. I would’ve been happy at the death of that 1 because I only care about the 99. I wished for the saving of the unborn and wouldn’t shed a tear for the already born even though one of your commandments is to love they neighbor. I use your scripture to perverse the word to throw back at my fellow Christians. I act as if I am clean as Jesus even though each sin is equal in your eyes. I act like I am better than others. Now move over; get out of my way; I’m going into Heaven now.”
Dr. Hye:
I don’t know if you were converted or what happened. Nonetheless, I have no doubt that it is God who put whatever plans in your hands to help you leave. I am glad that you are leaving. May God bless you.
“I think I was initially drawn to this thread simply for the irony though.”
(Good golly miss molly, the temptation to return to sarcasm is getting awfully strong on this thread … but I will resist … I’m sure of it.)
Indeed, life has taught me to view labels as such; easily applied and easily removed. That includes pro-life, Christian, Catholic … especially Catholic. Some people would be surprised how rampant the Cino (Catholic-In-Name-Only) problem is, though I’m not sure if you would be.
As for SharonG, my course at this point is simple; whether she is simply a troll or does indeed believe she is following Jesus’s teachings, I can do nothing until the Holy Spirit softens her heart and leads her to God. Thus, it is beyond my abilities to help her outside of prayer, of which she (and many others, including Scott) will be a frequent subject, both of mine and those of others.
“There’s just this one spot behind the left ear you have to know how to scratch just right, and they’ll love you forever.”
… hold on a second … at what point exactly did you get the impression … that I have any interest whatsoever in placating you or anyone else, Lady Xalisae? 8P
Scratch behind the ear and suddenly you’ll be nice to me? Forget that! You and I are already courteous towards each other (usually), and it’s should be out of maturity and respect. If we’re going to agree, it should be because we actually agree with each other!
<engage zealot mode>
Don’t settle for a proverbial scratch behind the ear! Really now, you warrant more than that; demand the facts, set standards and expect them to be met, drag those dirty secrets into the light for all to see, and know that we all deserve nothing less than the truth!
For the children being murdered!
For their mothers and fathers duped by the pro-aborts and subsequently vilified by them when they learn what really happened!
For those mothers and fathers and their children who may yet be spared this atrocity!
For the aged and infirm who find their lives threatened by others’ lust for comfort!
For the pro-aborts because they’re worth it!
And finally for ourselves because, darn it, so are we!
So no, Lady Xalisae, I will not scratch behind that left ear in the hopes of hitting a sweet spot; if you don’t believe you’re seeing the truth in what I or anyone else posts, bare those teeth and brandish those claws; lies are ugly, deadly things and deserve nothing less that a lunge straight for the throat!
If that means I will always face the ire of wild X’s, then I can live with that; better to face an honestly angry X than enjoy a peace founded upon deception!
And if that in turn means I never receive my black belt and must instead be satisfied with my studded blue belt, then so be it; I’ll wear it with pride across my knuckles and make people BEG me to get a black belt! >:-D
FOR THE GLORY OF GOD!!!!!!!!
<disengage zealot mode>
So don’t worry, Hans, that ear-scratching demonstration will not be required, though if you still feel you should update your will, I won’t argue with you; it’s always good to have your family affairs in order. :-P
It’s no wonder we sometimes seem to wander off into a Pro-Life version of Dungeons & Dragons. To always contemplate the scourge of abortion seriously would be enough to drive anyone batty! :)
I like this one. He’s got fire.
Hopefully this dragon will look at her blog’s e-mail! :)
Sharon: In our church, I make the coffee. That’s because I roast it, too.
I have a couple young disciples who are now pretty competent at doing the work too. Their initial and somewhat enduring motive for helping me is that they get to follow me downstairs during a portion of the worship service, and temporarily escape what to them is sometimes boring.
Part of this relational discipleship of coffee is Christian discipleship too, though, so I redeem the time, discuss with them their motives for service, and so forth.
Anyway…
I’ve occasionally had problems when it’s time to go back upstairs. Namely, they drag their feet, find excuses to lateral to some other activity as if it were Of Great Importance, and so forth.
But I have mixed feelings about cracking the whip. My own tack has been to tell them that I’m expecting them to act responsibly, and then instead of waiting and following them (like a goatherd or somesuch), I lead and make my way up quickly.
I think this is right. We are responsible for our behavior, and God doesn’t push us from behind. Nor does he generally convict a person of sin in one swell foop, as with Saul of Tarsus.
We are his ambassadors, and we show the way by going there ourselves. Not everyone will join us on the way. Thankfully few will know that some Christians are less patient than God himself with their pace of repentance.
For my part, I’m more impatient with my own.
Rasqual, Would you just leave your young disciples downstairs if you knew they were going to be killing babies? Your example doesn’t work here. You and others don’t see the urgency here. Maybe this will help: If someone broke into your home while you were in bed and you awoke to see this big man with a knife coming toward you and telling you that he was going to kill you, would you reach for your gun on the nightstand and take him out before he killed you? Of course you would. You would not wait for him to come to his senses and repent. And the babies Scott is going to continue killing until June 2nd are worth the same as your life and mine. If God chooses to take Scott’s life to get him to stop, so be it. Yes, it would be nice if Scott repented and immediately quit the baby-killing business, but according to Scott, he’s not ready to stop and you’re all here perfectly happy to wait until June 2nd because it’s not your life on the line.
“If God chooses to take Scott’s life to get him to stop, so be it.”
No one is saying that if it’s God’s will for Scott to die before June 2nd, then God is wrong. Some of us do think it’s un-Christian for you to wish for a swift death for Scott. Do you see the difference?
Again, if someone was about to murder you, Lrning, would you want them dead before you if that’s what it took? False doctrine leads to false conclusions.
Where do you get that wishing ill on others is Christian doctrine?
Self-defense and the protection of the innocent. READ THE BIBLE!
I do read and study the Bible. Thanks for the recommendation though. Are you saying that according to the Bible we should wish ill on someone, that they should die before their conversion?
Do not return evil for evil, or insult for insult; but, on the contrary, a blessing, because to this you were called, that you might inherit a blessing. 1 Peter 3:9
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Matthew 5:43-48
Do not repay anyone evil for evil; be concerned for what is noble in the sight of all. If possible, on your part, live at peace with all. Beloved, do not look for revenge but leave room for the wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” Rather, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head. Do not be conquered by evil but conquer evil with good. Romans 12:17-21
Sherry: “Rasqual, Would you just leave your young disciples downstairs if you knew they were going to be killing babies?”
Why would they be killing babies where I was discipling them?
The analogy may be imperfect, but it’s certainly irrational to make it even more so. :-/
“Yes, it would be nice if Scott repented and immediately quit the baby-killing business, but according to Scott, he’s not ready to stop and you’re all here perfectly happy to wait until June 2nd because it’s not your life on the line.”
But this is true of all abortionists. Why are you singling out Scott? Merely because some Christians are as patient with him as God was with the apostle Paul?
“Perfectly happy to wait” is a bit ridiculous — I’m “perfectly happy to wait for the sunrise” as well. People’s choices are what they are. If they’re not going to be where you would like to see them until tomorrow, then yeah — you’ll have to wait. That doesn’t mean you’re happy about it. By even misery can entertain a thread of hope for the one foisting the misery.
rasqual wrote “But this is true of all abortionists. Why are you singling out Scott?”
It is true with all abortionists. I wish God would take every single one of them before they could kill one more baby. Of course it’s up to God, but it’s not a sin to want the killing to stop – either by free will or force. I singled out Scott because he made such a ludicrous statement. If Scott has made up his mind it’s okay to kill babies until June 2nd, then Lord please take him. God is not mocked. The problem with your example of leaving the youth? downstairs to decide for themselves when they’re coming back up is that it wouldn’t be okay if they were hurting someone. A Christian should do everything within reason to rescue the person in harm’s way.
Lrning,
If Scott meant what he said and intends to kill children until June 2nd, I pray God takes him. God may choose to let him continue to kill, but I pray Scott does not have that opportunity. Why? Because I love my innocent, defenseless preborn neighbors. I have a God-given right to defend my life and that of innnocent life about to be slaughtered – even if it’s only through my prayers in Scott’s case. That way, I am leaving room for God’s wrath.
Psalm 139:19 Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree Sharon. Christians have prayed the Psalms since the very beginning, so I have no argument with that. In my prayer life, I try to follow most closely what Jesus taught me; “forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us” and “Thy will be done”. God is perfectly Just as well as perfectly Merciful. He has accepted my long, slow, day-by-day conversion to His will and I can do no less for others. I know God wills the conversion of Scott as He wills all to be saved, so that is what I’m praying for.
No, the Psalms were not even from the very beginning – try around the time of King David. And, Christians, around the time of Christ. Anyway, it is especially easy (and not even necessary) to forgive when the trespass is not against oneself, so that doesn’t apply here either. I will give you this much, Lrning, you are slow. No offense, but you must have the Holy Spirit to interpret Scripture, which means you have to subscribe to the true Gospel. Not some false teachings about Jesus coming bodily into a cracker, or a purgatory so we can help Jesus pay for our sins, or that Mary never sinned and she is a co-mediator with Jesus, etc., etc…See Chick.com for some great tracts for Catholics.
“See Chick.com for some great tracts for Catholics.”
This advice explains EVERYTHING.
LOL. Your last post is rich, Sharon. Thanks for the chuckle.
There were no Christians at the time of King David. So, yeah, Christians have prayed the Psalms from the very beginning (of Christianity). And I received the Holy Spirit at Baptism. Thanks for your concern, though.
Christians receive the Holy Spirit at conversion. Catholics think they’re saved in part by their works so it doesn’t surprise me that you said that.
Here is another great site for Catholics to see the error of their ways:
http://www.pro-gospel.org
Catholics think they’re saved in part by their works
Nope. Catholics know they are saved by the grace of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ. But we Catholics are Bible-believing Christians, so when Jesus and the apostles tell us we must do something, we believe it.
We’ve gotten off topic here. I’m going to go pray for Scott’s conversion now. Have a good day!
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
“Whoever has my commandments and observes them is the one who loves me. And whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and reveal myself to him. Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father that sent me.” John 14:21, 23-24
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 2:14-17
Apologies, everyone… I’ve been swamped with school-work, and that promises to be true for the next two weeks; it’s not from any desire to neglect you all!
Maestro wrote, in reply to my comment:
[Paladin]
(By the way… at the risk of making an awful pun: bravo, Maestro!)
[Maestro]
At risk of obliterating any semblance of intelligence which I may have been considered to have here, I must confess: I don’t get the pun.
:) No worries; not only is my (high) estimation of your intelligence secure, but it was a rather obscure pun, at that! The maestro usually presides over a symphonic production, and he/she’s usually the focus of applause, at one point, for guiding the orchestra through to a successful conclusion. Hence my limping pun/analogy.
SharonG wrote:
Btw, Paladin, BINGO!!!
(*wry smile*) Mm-hmm. Cute. You might, however, stop aspiring to be “ignorant and unstable”, so as to avoid “distorting the Scriptures to your own destruction”, madam. That was, in fact, the point which St. Peter was trying to make.
See Chick.com for some great tracts for Catholics.
(*face-palm*)
That, as Bobby says, explains a great deal. “There are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic Church; but there are millions who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is of course a very different thing.” -Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen
Hans wrote:
Aye, Maestro. But this windmill does have teeth! :) Even the crickets are nervously silent! :)
(*laugh*) Now THAT was funny…!
Catholics worship the pope as if he were Christ himself. That’s called idolatry. Just as God does, I hate false teachings regarding God and His Word. Chick tracts point out the errors of the Catholic faith – in a fun to read comic style. Here, try one and see if this isn’t what you believe and practice:
http://chick.com/reading/tracts/0071/0071_01.asp
In light of SharonG’s (and now Sherry’s, who could very easily be the same person) repeated attempts to demonstrate knowledge of Catholic doctrine and biblical truth, I make the following offer:
If anyone here would like to know more about what Catholics believe and what the bible says, you may feel free to ask me. Also, while I will not voluntell them, Lrning and Paladin may also be up to the task.
In addition, I can offer information from/about people who used to have comparatively distorted views of our faith but have since changed that view as a result of indepth study.
And Paladin, that line from Archbishop Sheen is definitely one of my favorites. Such a clever turn of phrase. :-)
Here, try one and see if this isn’t what you believe and practice.
No, it isn’t. If you want to find out about what Catholics believe and practice, you can check out the tracts here: http://www.catholic.com
“Catholics worship the pope as if he were Christ himself.”
I am not sure where you are getting this. My guess is that this has to do with what is meant by worship. What do you mean by worship? I have read Chick tracts, Sharon. If you think they make a substantive point, please describe it here for our consideration.
And while we’re just throwing out giant links for people to read http://www.catholic.com/documents/the-nightmare-world-of-jack-t-chick
SharonG: As one of Ratzinger’s “separated brethren,” I have my disagreements with Rome, as you do. And I’ve been familiar with Jack Chick possibly longer than you’ve been alive. But this familiarity doesn’t endear me to his apparent zeal for exaggeration, caricature, and misrepresentation. It’s not right.
Christ has given unity to Christians. We don’t achieve it — it’s given. We often labor separately as a consequence of our lamentable, real differences. And sometimes those differences call for outcry — as with the devastating superstitions that arise because Rome has been careless with syncretism in her missions.
But if I were Jack Chick, I guess I’d generalize about such superstitions and say “Catholics believe this stuff!” — leaving it to the naive reader to believe that any Catholic they meet believes [fill-in-the-blank]. It’s not right.
Fundamentalists are prone to err as well — sometimes venerating the idea of a single set of right beliefs to the point of worship, as if it were necessary to placate God by having every jot and tittle in place, every Bible a KJV.
But not all beliefs have the same valence — and this includes erroneous beliefs. God doesn’t seem to care about some of our errors, he really doesn’t. But I do believe he cares about our slanders of each other — gratuitous intramural skirmishes that subvert the gospel.
By all means promote clear understanding of the gospel for what it is. But don’t generalize as if entire populations you wish to critique subscribe to beliefs you only imagine are so universal among them. It’s not right.
SharonG wrote:
Catholics worship the pope as if he were Christ himself.
This is utter, arrant, provable nonsense.
That’s called idolatry.
“It” would indeed be idolatry, if it were, in fact, true… but it is not so. It’s called a “straw man”, madam; you might look up the term, when you have a spare moment.
Just as God does, I hate false teachings regarding God and His Word.
I do, as well; this is one of many reasons why I find your distortions of His Word to be so troubling… even though I’ve heard them hundreds of times, from hundreds of different mouths of confused, bitter people (often with emotional pain associated with individual Catholics and/or clergy).
Chick tracts point out the errors of the Catholic faith – in a fun to read comic style.
Jack Chick is, to put it gently, delusional. Anyone with sense can find out what Catholics truly believe, with the click of a mouse-button:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm
Here, try one and see if this isn’t what you believe and practice:
(*sigh*) Believe me, friend, I’ve seen them all. And no, it isn’t what we believe and practise. And I do think you know that… yes? “Any old stick is good enough with which to beat the Catholic Church”, as the saying goes. If you disagree with the Church in Her teachings, disciplines, devotions, or what-have-you, at least you could be intellectually honest enough to represent the aspects of the Church fairly, and criticise *those*. Those who say “I simply refuse to believe that the Bishop of Rome has such authority!” are at least being fair and sincere (if mistaken); but when you make such wild claims as “Catholics worship the Pope as if he were Christ”, then no one with any sense will take you seriously.
This reminds me of when my Catholic mom and Baptist dad would debate religion when I was little. XD
It’s all right with me when we argue religion and politics. We should care enough to get hot under the collar from time to time. It’s all about the two most important questions in life, after all. “Why are we here?” And “What should we do about it?”
“While Peter prohibited Cornelius from prostrating himself before him in worship, Peter’s claimed successor; Pope John Paul II, in striking contradiction, has his new Bishops prostrate themselves before him in St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome, at the alleged tomb of Peter, during their ordination ceremony.”
For a photo of above, scroll down to almost the bottom of the page at this link:
http://www.mindserpent.com/American_History/religion/pope/claims.html
For years, while I sidewalk counsel in front of my local abortuary, I see and hear Catholics praying to Mary instead of to Jesus, our sole Mediator. That’s idolatry as well. I’ve had these same Catholics tell me that Mary, being a mother, is more compassionate towards their requests. Right. Like she is more compassionate than Jesus, who shed His blood for us. They also bring pictures of Mary. Mary, Mary, Mary. Sheesh!
Hi Sherry.
I understand your thinking here about prostration. However, we need to understand what is going on in the picture, not simply say “ah ha! They’re prostrating themselves before JPII, that means they’re worshiping him!” No, far from it. As even your website recognizes, this is part of the rite of ordination for the sacrament of Holy Orders. Those candidates who are about to be ordained prostrate themselves before the altar, before GOD to invoke his mercy and intercession, not the Pope, as any discussion of ordination will tell you. True, the Pope happens to be on teh altar, but so what? No one who is prostrating themselves thinks they are worshiping the Pope, and anyone who is knowledgeable concerning teh ordination ceremony thinks they are worshiping the Pope. Again, you will not find anywhere in any authentic Catholic doctrine or liturgical rites the teaching that “candidates must prostrate themselves before the pope and worship him.” So this picture is a complete misinterpretation and misrepresentation of what Catholics believe and are doing in the picture.
Furthermore, when verses like the one you quoted above and verses like Exodus 20:4 and Exodus 23:24 are used to try and “prove” Catholics “worship” Mary, statues, and other things, it belies a fundamental missing of the point of these verses. The point is not that it is disordered to bow at the waist in front of someone or that it is intrinsically evil to get down on your knees if you plan on doing anything else other than worshiping God. No, the point is that there is ONE God and he ALONE do we worship. This can be easily illustrated by the following thought experiment. I am sure you would agree with me that President Obama is essentially worshiped by some here in America. Now, suppose I and another person (who is an Obama worshiper) meets him. Out of respect for his office, I make a profound bow at the waist when I shake his hand while the other person stands perfectly still and upright yet says in his heart “There is one god and Obama is his name.” Now I bowed before Obama and the other person did not, but which one of us was worshiping him? Clearly it was the one who did not bow.
The point is that there are many different outward signs that depending on time of existence and culture etc. can determine what outward signs constitute worship, but ultimately it is a matter of the heart. In addition, reading these verses in this literalistic “no bending allowed” fashion also misses teh point that we can easily fall victim to worshiping other things without prostrating ourselves and bowing before it. Things like money, wealth, power, honor, material goods, etc. These can all become gods to us that we place before the one true God, and if all we’re getting out of teh above verses concerns body postures, I’m afraid we’ve missed the boat.
“For years, while I sidewalk counsel in front of my local abortuary, I see and hear Catholics praying to Mary instead of to Jesus, our sole Mediator.”
I take it you have in mind here 1 Tim 2:5. Very simply answer. When we honor Mary with the title “Mediatrix”, we mean it in a different sense than Christ’s mediatorship. That’s it. When St Paul says “there is one mediator between God and man the man Christ Jesus” and Catholics say “Mary is a mediator” we are using those words analogously, not univocally. But it is appropriate because her mediatorship flows from Christs. Anyone who acts as a mediator for someone else gains that mediatorship ONLY from Christ. In fact, we Christians are mediators for eachother all teh time. When I ask you to pray for me, I am asking you to be a mediator for me, a go-between between me and Jesus. Does your praying for me take away from the 1 unique mediatorship of Christ? Of course not. Christ desires those in his body to build each other up as we read about in 1 Cor 12. But the fact that you are able to mediate for me on my behalf is derived from Christ’s sole mediatorship. So once again, this is simply a misunderstanding of what Catholics believe and mean when they say certain things.
“That’s idolatry as well.”
It remains unclear to me how praying to someone is idolatry unless you DEFINE worship to be prayer. I would say that is an extremely inadequate understanding of worship if that is the case.
“I’ve had these same Catholics tell me that Mary, being a mother, is more compassionate towards their requests.”
Yes, there is a long tradition dating back many centuries that Jesus can never refuse a request from his mother, that his love for her is so great and since he humbled himself so perfectly, giving us a model of humility and obedience, that he will not deny his mother anything she requests. Because Mary is God? No, because we believe this is what pleases Jesus, who submitted himself fully to her on earth, and now desires to heed her requests in heaven. It’s all about God.
“Right. Like she is more compassionate than Jesus, who shed His blood for us.”
This would derive from Simeon’s prophecy of Mary in Luke 2:35 “And a sword will pierce your own soul.” Again, many scholastics and the patristics understood this to mean that Mary also suffered a passion with Jesus while Jesus suffered on the cross, and that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, he efficaciously made Mary’s sacrifice and pain and suffering of seeing her own perfect son be brutally slaughtered efficacious for merit. Again, not because Mary did anything on her own, but because of Jesus’ sacrifice and because it pleased him.
Hope that clarifies a few things. God love you.
Sorry Bobby Bambino, but I am not falling for your careful, but lacking explanations. I’ve studied the origins of the Catholic religion and it is NOT Christian. Here’s a great book for starters: http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0187.asp
Hebrews 4:15-16
15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Why is Mary Crying? http://chick.com/reading/tracts/0040/0040_01.asp
Mary’s role as intercessor can be understood from Scripture. Jesus is King and Mary is the Queen Mother. You might understand the Catholic prayer warriors at the clinic better by reading the short paragraph at the bottom of this page:
http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Institution%20of%20the%20Gebirah.htm
The Scriptural references are included as well.
Amen to Hebrews 4:15-16.
Now as far as the pagan creep theory goes, if it proves anything, it proves too much. For I am sure you are aware of many atheistic websites that use the same arguments to try and show that ALL of Christianity is simply ANE myth repackaged and dumped onto the stupid masses. But we certainly know that such speculation is nonsense. Now this takes time and careful attention must be made to the particular claims made. For example, the claim is often made that the Virgin birth in Christianity is simply a borrowed form of teh “virgin birth” of Horus. Well, when you look into it, the supposed “parallels” aren’t really there. Sure, for someone who simply wants to have some sort of “intellectual” reason not to have to accept Christianity, they can try and explain it away with an uncritical appeal to ANE myth and leave it at that. But we know that a more careful analysis reveals that there is no “problem.” So it seems to me that there is little reason to reject ANE myth hypotheses about teh origins of Christianity if one is willing to accept them concerning other aspects of Christianity (or what you would argue is a false Christianity I realize).
I’ve seen “why is Mary crying?” and the most charitable thing I can say about it is that it is typical Jack Chick. If you believe there is a substantive point made in it, I am happy to address it.
I’ve studied the origins of the Catholic religion and it is NOT Christian.
If you’ve studied the four Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles, then you’ve studied the origins of the Catholic religion.
Actually, you’d need to study the Old Testament as well, in order to understand Catholicism.
Argh. “he efficaciously made Mary’s sacrifice and pain and suffering of seeing her own perfect son be brutally slaughtered efficacious for merit.”
It’s that kind of stuff that drives some of us separated brethren nuts. ;-)
And Mary as queen? Aaargh.
SharonG/Sherry, whoever you are: Jack Chick is wrong on so much it’s ridiculous. It’s no favor to persuasive argument among Christians to introduce astonishingly bogus material and cite it as some kind of useful help.
Let’s see, that kind of attitude probably proves I’m a Jesuit stooge . . .
Good grief.
Mary ain’t the “queen mother”. Sheesh!
http://chick.com/reading/tracts/0047/0047_01.asp
http://chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
Will you please stop citing Chick as your sole resource in these conversations? Seriously, if that’s the apex of your intake on these matters, you’re not well-informed.
Do you disagree? Do you think it’s wise to rest one’s case on a single source who has, himself, trusted sources proven to be bogus?
Right, maybe Catholics are wrong on these matters but seriously, it ain’t for the reasons that Chick gives.
There’s a real problem when those critiquing a thing are incapable of appreciating incredibly obvious critiques of their own material. It’s as if someone who doesn’t know critique when they see it, aims to contrive it. It’s a worst case scenario, well beyond the glass houses thing.
Er… I think we have a genuine troll, y’all. “Passage of time and discussion” = “less and less substance, repeated inflammatory gibes”… rather clear symptoms.
You may certainly feel free to prove me wrong, Sharon, by engaging the topic matter with at least a modicum of care and reason, rather than mere knee-jerk snarls from professional (and delusional) anti-Catholic sources…
Mary ain’t the “queen mother”. Sheesh!
Why? Because you don’t understand what Queen Mother means? Because you don’t acknowledge Jesus as King? Because you don’t recognize 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles as Scripture?
There are 613 laws in the Old Testament. Certainly they are scripture.
Do Catholics obey them?
Rasqual wrote:
There are 613 laws in the Old Testament. Certainly they are scripture. Do Catholics obey them?
That depends. The Ten Commandments (which are included in the 613 Mitzvot) are binding on all Catholics, certainly; the others are not (cf. Hebrews 7-10, especially Hebrews 8:13), since Jesus Himself fulfilled the purpose of those Old Covenant laws in Himself, and they are therefore no longer binding (and might well be spiritually harmful, depending on circumstances and intent).
Sherry,
I’m coming in late on this debate, but I’d love to reccomend that you and any one else interested check out CDs from Lighthouse Catholic Media.
http://www.lighthousecatholicmedia.org/store
LCM’s CD’s are a great source for answering a variety of common questions about the Catholic faith. *They have a CD of the month club or you can buy titles individually.
*Also, a great deal for all military personnel, their families and veterans who subscribe….you can get the first nine downloads FREE. (See special link at their website.)
God bless.
Er… I think we have a genuine troll, y’all. “Passage of time and discussion” = “less and less substance, repeated inflammatory gibes”… rather clear symptoms.
Paladin, I think you have a textbook case of Poe’s Law here…
@Navi: :) Hm… it’s a tempting thought, to suppose that Sharon is indulging in a bit of skillful leg-pulling and satire, and that she’s really a stable, affable and well-balanced Christian who will smile at the idea of a rosary (and/or refusing to wish for the death of an evil man) as readily as at the idea of a Billy Graham crusade… but I wouldn’t lay odds on it, quite yet, without some strikingly conclusive data.
Troll or not, this is really funny!!!
http://pro-gospel.org/articles
Hard Questions to Ask Good Catholics
One of the most effective ways to communicate the Gospel of grace is to ask questions. This method was used often by the Lord Jesus Christ and His disciples as they engaged the lost. Asking questions also shows people that you care for them. Usually people don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care.
The Lord Jesus had some hard questions for good Jews. He asked questions, not only to make His Gospel known, but also to expose the errors of religious leaders. Jesus challenged Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, about his knowledge of the Kingdom of God: “Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?” (John 3:10).
Well there ya go, a much better source that succinctly treats a few important differences between the Roman church and evangelicalism. Of course it treats none of the many beliefs and practices shared in common, but I wouldn’t expect a summary introduction of such issues to do so.
Just bear in mind that Catholics vary widely in what they believe and practice — as with any denomination. Don’t get in the habit of generalizing concerning all Catholics; e.g., “Catholics believe that yada yada.” Individual belief varies.
Yes, important enough differences that demonstrate Catholicism is not Christian.
http://pro-gospel.org/articles
:-/
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation
In addition, Lrning, the very website that Sharon linked to has a debate on assurance of salvation with my boy Tim Staples which I’m quite surprised they would have included…
http://pro-gospel.org/articles/153-catholic-apologist-initiates-debate-on-eternal-security
As a separated brethren, I’d call that a mostly fair treatment, Lrning. The last paragraph is right-on even for non-Catholic Christians. I know few who would not amen it enthusiastically.
:-)
But I don’t think that will mollify SharonG much. :-
(p.s. — I love the way the article cites an evangelical oddball, turning the tables on how SharonG cites Jack Chick. It’s a bit “unfair” — which kind of makes the point)
Bobby, that’s a really good debate!
I wonder if SharonG’s read it and listened — actually listened respectfully with her mind’s ears — to both sides.
The Roman Catholic Institution (“Church”) is the whore of Revelation 17
“A Woman Rides the Beast”, by Dave Hunt, 1994
http://www.thebereancall.org/content/woman-rides-beast-1
Revelation 17:1-6, KJV
1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither;
I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters;
2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with
the wine of her fornication.
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup
in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her,
I wondered with great admiration.
Why am I not surprised that if Jack Chick didn’t impress us, the next go-to guy was Dave Hunt? Years ago I would read stuff critiquing guys like Hunt and Chick and I used to just be like “this is a waste of time. No could possibly take these guys seriously.” Yet here are. Sharon, I will save you the trouble of posting again by going downstairs and reading a random passage from my copy of “Roman Catholicism” by Loraine Boettner. He’ll be the next professional anti-Catholic that you quote by my calculation.
Seriously, Sharon, you need to be reading level-headed, rational Protestants who have spent more than 7 yoctoseconds learning about Catholicism. Guys like RC Sproul, James White, Norm Geisler, DA Carson, etc.
“[You] need to be reading level-headed, rational Protestants who have spent more than 7 yoctoseconds learning about Catholicism. Guys like RC Sproul, James White, Norm Geisler, DA Carson, etc.”
Many would argue that Scott Hahn should be added to that list.
While I wouldn’t disagree, I won’t personally endorse him because, while I’ve heard innumerable good things about his work, I’ve never actually read any of it.
Also, he’s no longer Protestant, so despite any degree of rationality or logic that may be present in his writings, you know as well as I how far that will go with those who accept nothing else. :-P
“I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.”
A few names come to mind…
(and in case you’re wondering, SharonG is not one of them)
Yeah, Scott Hahn is definitely worthy of anyone’s time. But right now, I’m just trying to recommend stuff that Sharon would most likely agree with and is intelligible.
http://www.flyingchariotministries.com/nazisandthechurch.htm
http://www.flyingchariotministries.com/nazisandthechurch.htm
Scroll down to the photo entitled, Handshake made in hell.
Wow, that picture of Hitler shaking hands with that Cardinal must mean that that Cardinal is a Nazi. Therefore, the Catholic Church supports the Nazis. Therefore, the Catholic Church is the whore of Babylon.
Sharon, I like to read actual history books to learn about what people thought and how they worked as opposed to looking at pictures on the internet that seem to already establish my preconceived notions. Please avoid reading “Hitler, the War, and the Pope” by Ronald Rychlak and “The Myth of Hitler’s Pope” by Rabbi David Dalin. These are books based on historical evidence as opposed to photographs, and they are not in agreement with your conclusions that are drawn from looking at pictures.
I request that your next post be an excerpt from Fox’s Book of Martyrs.
My vids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QTsQYufMkE